This makes total sense to me and I saw this demonstrated in a masterclass with Al Baer where a student played on his instrument with his mouthpiece. Attacks were very inconsistent. The gap was measured and another mouthpiece was provided by Alan that fit correctly. It made a huge difference!
Very interesting. This is something that I never heard when I was majoring in music while in college, but it makes sense. It also makes me think that trying to buy a stock mouthpiece where you wouldn't possibly know if it is going to "fit" or not before you buy it could lead to a lot of frustration. I've been playing a Bach 1-1/2 G on a 1970's Bach 50 B2 (independent valves) for years. I haven't kept up my playing, but several things have always been true on the horn: 1) it is difficult to get the notes below the staff to pop in without a lot of work and 2)1st position F below the staff with the F trigger is hard to tune. Outside of that the horn is okay other than it always takes more air than I could ever provide regardless of how big a breath I take. It's probably me and if I practiced more maybe I could overcome some of the difficulties in playing this horn, but it very frustrating so I don't practice.
The first time I've ever heard of the gap is with Harrison of Harrison Trumpets. He supposedly sells inserts to widen that gap. Do you have anymore videos speaking about this topic?
I've experienced this with my Yamaha 830 (apparently others have as well from the comments) when using my Griego GP6. I first used the GP6 with a Bach 50 and really enjoyed the sound I got out of it. I still love the sound I get most of the time, but there are a few notes that don't want to slot or center correctly on the Yamaha. I was talking to my local tech about this and he suggested I take either paper or aluminum foil and wrap it around the shank and see how many sheets it takes to see improvement. I tried this and wrapping one sheet of paper made a bit of difference, so I tried a second. It was almost like I was playing a different instrument. The thing I don't know is what to do with this information. I've been using the Yamaha 59 mouthpiece that came with it and have tried the Yamaha Doug Yeo replica and they both slot better than the GP6, but neither gives me the sound I want. If you have any suggestions on how to widen the gap with the GP6 or if there are any custom options you all offer for that kind of thing, I'm all ears.
i'm going through this engagement thing right now and I''m tossing in the towel, getting a new horn. I have a Yamaha Xeno 822G. i like the sound and relative ease of playing WHEN on certain mouthpieces. For example the notes especially in the upper register and lower register slot so much better when using a Yamaha mouthpiece. My 58 and 59 slot well, although compared with others I have, I'm not wild about the sound. Also my newest Wedge mouthpieces with the "deeper" shaft for "deeper" receivers slot better, again with not quite the sound of, for example my Markey 85 and 87 or my Greg Black 1 7/16th and my Greg Black 1 3/8. These 4 insert further than the previously mentioned pieces. They slot well enough in the mid range, but require 300% concentration to catch a low E or E-flat with f-trigger. Way too much leeway in pitch. When I switch out for a Wedge or the Yamaha, the accuracy and tone colours are better on these low notes. I tried experimenting wrapping the shanks with teflon tape and that brought some improvement, but ... sporadically it was like the horn stopped playing and it appears that bits of tape would break loose and slop up the main slide - big chunks of teflon goop. This "engagement" problem is well known of the Yamaha 830, 822 and what I've heard the older 620 and 613, 612. So I'm going to try the new Yamaha 835GD that is supposed to have solved this problem and see how my mouthpieces fit. Will also try the Shire Q series. I'm 71, so am not going to invest in a boutique horn, since I'm now retired from public performance and only play for my own enjoyment.
Talking about a funny response to a MP, have you heard of a mouthpiece making someone play 20 cents sharp? I have a boutique 1G (not naming names) that does this compared to a Willie’s 007 and Schilke 59 with the horn staying constant (edwards 1239CF, single radius yellow tuning slide, dependent axials, dual bore slide with a yellow crook, and number 2 lead pipe)
I play an Arnolds & Sons 3c and I personally think it even sounds better than a Bach 3c!!! Feels more open and sounds warmer too! Anyone have the same experience with this?
It is different for different people with different mouthpieces. A larger cup/diameter mouthpiece may require a larger gap, where a smaller cup/diameter mouthpiece could benefit with a smaller gap. I always think of it as a balancing act between the mouthpiece volume and the leadpipe gap. Hope this helps answer your question.
Interesting So, what can be an indication that i need to check it? Ever since i bought a new horn(shires rs model)a year ago, i can't decide which mouthpiece to use. I had 3 mouthpieces that were great with my conn 88h, but now it feels like non of those fits well. Unfortunately i am in Israel, pretty far from the states, or any trombone civilisation;). So this video made me wonder in that direction.
Add tape to the shank of the mouthpiece (just one piece around) and if the playability improves then the gap is too small. The Shires lead pipes go in quite far and it could be that the gap is too small for you. Your Conn probably had a quite different gap than the Shires lead pipes. It may be that you just need another lead pipe with standard 1" insertion more like your prior instrument.
This makes total sense to me and I saw this demonstrated in a masterclass with Al Baer where a student played on his instrument with his mouthpiece. Attacks were very inconsistent. The gap was measured and another mouthpiece was provided by Alan that fit correctly. It made a huge difference!
Glad you liked the video.
Very interesting. This is something that I never heard when I was majoring in music while in college, but it makes sense. It also makes me think that trying to buy a stock mouthpiece where you wouldn't possibly know if it is going to "fit" or not before you buy it could lead to a lot of frustration. I've been playing a Bach 1-1/2 G on a 1970's Bach 50 B2 (independent valves) for years. I haven't kept up my playing, but several things have always been true on the horn: 1) it is difficult to get the notes below the staff to pop in without a lot of work and 2)1st position F below the staff with the F trigger is hard to tune. Outside of that the horn is okay other than it always takes more air than I could ever provide regardless of how big a breath I take. It's probably me and if I practiced more maybe I could overcome some of the difficulties in playing this horn, but it very frustrating so I don't practice.
The first time I've ever heard of the gap is with Harrison of Harrison Trumpets. He supposedly sells inserts to widen that gap.
Do you have anymore videos speaking about this topic?
I've experienced this with my Yamaha 830 (apparently others have as well from the comments) when using my Griego GP6. I first used the GP6 with a Bach 50 and really enjoyed the sound I got out of it. I still love the sound I get most of the time, but there are a few notes that don't want to slot or center correctly on the Yamaha. I was talking to my local tech about this and he suggested I take either paper or aluminum foil and wrap it around the shank and see how many sheets it takes to see improvement. I tried this and wrapping one sheet of paper made a bit of difference, so I tried a second. It was almost like I was playing a different instrument. The thing I don't know is what to do with this information. I've been using the Yamaha 59 mouthpiece that came with it and have tried the Yamaha Doug Yeo replica and they both slot better than the GP6, but neither gives me the sound I want. If you have any suggestions on how to widen the gap with the GP6 or if there are any custom options you all offer for that kind of thing, I'm all ears.
I thought the standard mouthpiece taper was 1:20, not 1:17. What is a 1:17 taper called?
i'm going through this engagement thing right now and I''m tossing in the towel, getting a new horn. I have a Yamaha Xeno 822G. i like the sound and relative ease of playing WHEN on certain mouthpieces. For example the notes especially in the upper register and lower register slot so much better when using a Yamaha mouthpiece. My 58 and 59 slot well, although compared with others I have, I'm not wild about the sound. Also my newest Wedge mouthpieces with the "deeper" shaft for "deeper" receivers slot better, again with not quite the sound of, for example my Markey 85 and 87 or my Greg Black 1 7/16th and my Greg Black 1 3/8. These 4 insert further than the previously mentioned pieces. They slot well enough in the mid range, but require 300% concentration to catch a low E or E-flat with f-trigger. Way too much leeway in pitch. When I switch out for a Wedge or the Yamaha, the accuracy and tone colours are better on these low notes. I tried experimenting wrapping the shanks with teflon tape and that brought some improvement, but ... sporadically it was like the horn stopped playing and it appears that bits of tape would break loose and slop up the main slide - big chunks of teflon goop. This "engagement" problem is well known of the Yamaha 830, 822 and what I've heard the older 620 and 613, 612.
So I'm going to try the new Yamaha 835GD that is supposed to have solved this problem and see how my mouthpieces fit. Will also try the Shire Q series. I'm 71, so am not going to invest in a boutique horn, since I'm now retired from public performance and only play for my own enjoyment.
Talking about a funny response to a MP, have you heard of a mouthpiece making someone play 20 cents sharp? I have a boutique 1G (not naming names) that does this compared to a Willie’s 007 and Schilke 59 with the horn staying constant (edwards 1239CF, single radius yellow tuning slide, dependent axials, dual bore slide with a yellow crook, and number 2 lead pipe)
I play an Arnolds & Sons 3c and I personally think it even sounds better than a Bach 3c!!! Feels more open and sounds warmer too! Anyone have the same experience with this?
So, would the optimal mouthpiece set up be for the shank to go in all the way, or is there a necessity of some gap?
It is different for different people with different mouthpieces. A larger cup/diameter mouthpiece may require a larger gap, where a smaller cup/diameter mouthpiece could benefit with a smaller gap. I always think of it as a balancing act between the mouthpiece volume and the leadpipe gap. Hope this helps answer your question.
Interesting
So, what can be an indication that i need to check it?
Ever since i bought a new horn(shires rs model)a year ago, i can't decide which mouthpiece to use.
I had 3 mouthpieces that were great with my conn 88h, but now it feels like non of those fits well.
Unfortunately i am in Israel, pretty far from the states, or any trombone civilisation;).
So this video made me wonder in that direction.
Add tape to the shank of the mouthpiece (just one piece around) and if the playability improves then the gap is too small. The Shires lead pipes go in quite far and it could be that the gap is too small for you. Your Conn probably had a quite different gap than the Shires lead pipes. It may be that you just need another lead pipe with standard 1" insertion more like your prior instrument.
What is the standard insertion length into a leadpipe?
Standard engagement is 1"