The reason 19 & 20 became 17 & 18 was because when Toriyama's editor first saw them, he said they looked ridiculous and demanded he change the main antagonists.
A bit of correction, it was a former editor, and he didn't really demand Toriyama change it. He just said it sucked and would do the same for 17 & 18. That former editor is also the reason Semi Perfect Cell doesn't last long, he didn't like that one either.
@@masterprick1 No, said fromer editor you first mentioned was responsible for the former case, but not the latter: he complained about 19 and 20, but also about 17 and 18 since he thought they were just brats unfit of being the main villains: this is why Toriyama changed the villain again by creating Cell. It was his *current* eidotr at the time that complained about Cell's 1st and 2nd form being gross and ugly respectively.
@@succubastard1019This. In case anybody needs their names for easier research, his former editor was Torishima Kazuhiko, known to be Toriyama's most strict editor. The current editor at the time was Kondo Yuu
From Google: "Of the 71,000 stores around the globe, 21,215 stores (nearly 30% of global stores) are in Japan, with 2,824 stores in Tokyo alone." This is most certainly a reference. LMAO
@@TyroneLangam There's got to be a handful of Isekai worlds that have them. "I died and was brought back to fight the demon king, but he's my boss at 7 Eleven"
DBZA did something that I think is interesting enough that I like to think of it as canon even though it obviously isn’t. TFS built off of Toriyama saying that 16 was based on Gero’s son who died in combat, and they had it so that his son died during Goku’s assault on the RR Army Headquarters. This idea really helps flesh out Gero, especially because it’s kind of weird that he’d have this more than a decade long grudge about the Red Ribbon Army’s defeat if he didn’t have more of a personal stake in it given that the RR Army was actually built to help Commander Red get taller, instead of having some ideological project to believe in (they told the soldiers that it was about taking over the world but that still isn’t really enough of an ideology to explain Gero being so attached to them). Goku killing Gero’s son and that later causing the Cell saga just works really well as an unintended consequence of Goku’s actions.
Yes! Team Four Star is awesome and I loved this scene, I was thinking about referencing it but it does sort of go against Toriyama's specification that he dies in combat due to a stray bullet.
@@toughmangaming8275 I just explain this away in my head by saying that the stray bullet was going for Goku. Sure, that means Goku didn't kill him directly, but it would still mean he caused his death.
@@kenjyn76Yeah, it still works with the TFS scene, the chaos of an entire base firing off weapons to kill a tiny superpowered alien, there's bound to be a stray bullet there.
I also love how it's a pretty justified move since, he's Cell. By the time he's perfect he drained several cities and did a funny on the news. If I was a random schmuck and I heard his voice in my mind I'd raise my arms in fear. Which is a pretty sick twist on the spirit bomb.
My theory on why Androids 19 and 20 showed up instead of 17 and 18 in the altered timeline is that Trunks was just an unreliable source of information. He was a baby when all of this went down, and heard everything second or more likely third hand from his mother, as Bulma probably learned about everything from whoever survived the initial fight with the Androids. I also think things may have happened on a longer timeline than we assumed based on how things panned out in the altered timeline. Since the Z-Fighters didn't know they were coming, it's likely 19 and 20 were active for a little while before the Z-fighters caught up with them. Having heard something attacked an island 9 miles south of South City, they investigated, but maybe weren't able to confront them immediately. Since they can't sense the Android's energy, it would have been even harder to find them without Trunk's warning, so they may not have even found them on May 12, that was just when they became aware of them. When they did finally track the androids down, it went essentially the same as it did in the Altered timeline, with the obvious exception of Goku being dead. Since Gero hadn't factored in the increase in strength everyone gained on Namek in the Altered Timeline, I think that would still hold true in Trunks' timeline, and even without Goku there Vegeta and Piccolo at least greatly surpassed Gero's expectations and they managed to destroy 19, forcing Gero to retreat to activate 17 and 18. (I can't remember or was never clear on whether Vegeta was a Super Saiyan in Trunks' Timeline. Either way, I expect he was still strong enough to handle 19) After that, things went pretty much the way Trunks had forecast, with 17 and 18 killing off each Z-Fighter in turn until only Gohan was left. From there, Trunks grew up only ever knowing about 17 and 18. Bulma, not having known beforehand about the Android threat, wouldn't have gone with the guys to meet them and would have somehow learned about all of this later, with the parts about 19 and 20 being omitted because they'd been defeated and weren't relevant anymore, and so she never never told Trunks either. The only thing I can't reconcile is Trunks saying it was 19 and 20 who would show up when he warned Goku in the manga. I can only chalk that up to Toriyama's style of making it up as he went along and his editor forcing him to change things mid story. But that's my take on the timeline discrepancies. They weren't discrepancies at all, Trunks just didn't have all the details about how the initial encounter with the androids went down.
Personally, I couldn't see Trunks going about this without consulting Bulma. My headcanon, is that 19 and 20 would've gone ignored in the future timeline, giving Gero some more time to install failsafes in 17 and 18 (making them both weaker). Then the Z Fighters would end up confronting 17 and 18 when they're inevitably released. How 19 and 20 were destroyed, I don't know. It's possible that Vegeta kept up with his training and then destroyed them before being taken out by 17 and 18. Or 17 just took care of them.
@kda9x See, I don't think Gero intended on confronting the Z-fighters at all, at least not when they did. I think he'd already nixed 17 and 18 because they were too hard to control, and Cell was plan A the whole time. He turned himself and 19 into energy absorption models because he intended to gather energy to speed Cell's maturation. Once he was fully powered, Cell could absorb 17 and 18 right from their stasis pods. But, 19 got ganked, Gero released the twins out of desperation and got ganked, and Cell was left to develop according to the computer's original parameters. I also think Gero's personal vendetta against Goku was exaggerated, or at least a secondary priority. Since in Superhero we learn he was still working for Red Ribbon, albeit more independently, I think running into Goku in the altered timeline was a happy accident (you know, until it wasn't and everything started going off the rails) and his plans would have proceeded whether Goku was alive or not.
@@grimlockprime1972I can definitely agree with you on the whole thing happening on a longer timescale. That's probably why the Future Androids are weaker. All the present Z Fighters being much stronger probably put everything on fast forward. Leading to Gero awakening them before he felt it was safe.
Well as far as the androids being weaker, the manga covers this. Trunks just wasn’t there when Future 17 told Future Gohan that they were holding back this time so the present androids would also need to hold back less against stronger Z-Fighters. Either that or they were made weaker to be slightly more controllable to go on destroying things when they’re stronger, present counter parts chose not to but still destructive. Although that might not be the explanation since in the present 17 and 18 have a purpose being finding Goku. Therefore they have something to do and no real reason to attack “people who run” unlike their future counterparts. There’s also the notion of Goku being alive in the present which would be reason enough for Gero and 19 to personally take revenge where in the future Goku’s dead, so Gero can spend more time on the androids and they can break out without an interaction leading to 16 being awakened as we see in the anime. This could mesh well with “the future androids are weaker because of Gero and slightly less defiant” theory. There’s also Dr. Gero acting as Android 20 and trying to push the idea that Dr. Gero was dead until Piccolo called him out on his bs. So it’s entirely possible that if Trunks heard this information second hand, the narrative could be that Androids 19 and 20 “killed” Dr. Gero if no one could call him out on this since without Goku, there’s no reason for Gero to be be angry enough to cause a slip to reveal himself as Dr. Gero. Also fun fact. The anime shows future 17 and 18 blasting Cell in his pod but he still survives and later kills Trunks, so there should be a present Cell in the main timeline and the first altered timeline since there’s no way Krillin (and Trunks in the main timeline) would’ve killed Cell if the androids didn’t.
It's implied Androids 19 and 20 just weren't a thing in Trunks' timeline, and the DBS manga would later reinforce this. My guess is that if Toriyama had kept Android 16, 17 and 18 as the arc's main villains he might have given us an explaination as of why this exact change in time happened, but since he almost immediately added Cell into the story the chance to do so just got lost or felt unnecessary.
For decades at this point, I have had this theory that there is a form of cell that we never got to see. See, when imperfect cell absorbed 17, he took on various masculine features. A very strong jawline, bigger frame in proportion to the rest of his body, and it has been state to be his tallest form. When he absorbs 18, a lot of those over the top masculine features get toned down. I think, that had imperfect cell absorbed android 18, we would have seen an imperfect cell that looks pretty different and more feminine than any other form of cell, as for what that would entail, it's hard to say.
Draining-types do have infinite energy, and are technically an improved version of 17/18's generators (as they allow a fully mechanical entity to increase it's power over time, where as 17/18's reactors are partly bio-reactors that integrate with living tissue, and absorb ki progression of the user's body to improve output, which doesn't work for a machine body. 16 can't increase his power generation innately, but 19 and 20 can). Since any energy drained permanently increases their output in the future, and takes much less time and effort than 17/18 need to in order to boost their generator's output levels, which requires just as much effort as normal ki growth.
Fun fact: The Android 13 movie actually came out before Cell stated he wanted to absorb 17 and 18, meaning that it’s entirely possible that Cell and 13 were created independently from each other. Probably not, but it’s possible. I also remember seeing a headcanon that 13 might be modeled off a younger Gero. If you age Gero down, get rid of his facial hair, and shorten his hair, they look pretty similar.
18 being money-motivated after getting a family does make a lot of sense. Nearly every living being in her universe is either her friend, or beatable. She doesn't need food, has shelter, has love, and has purpose. All her sentient needs are met. The only thing left for her is maintain what she has while pursuing material desires/hobbies.
Oddly enough, tucking your pants into your socks (like how 17 does) is a surprisingly effective way to keep ticks off your legs irl.... Despite being a look only 17 can pull off. Given that Super's version becomes a park ranger, part of me wonders how long Toriyama had that idea for 17 to become one in his head.
Presumably Toriyama had the Park Ranger idea all the way back to at least the Buy saga when we saw him in a forest with his coat and gun, fun fact that scene was actually originally supposed to be launch in the manga but got changed to 17 at some point
40:13 Pretty interesting detail that he used a form out of desperation he also mocked trunks for using. But attained a better form that has the exact same aura as Gohan’s after being pushed to the brink of death, basically he’s a saiyan at heart☠️
I thought 19 is also like 20 and you can see his brain. In GT, it appeared that Gero removed the red orbs which may be transferred into the final design of Super 17. There are several close ups to his palm revealing he lacks an energy absorber. Trunks saying that 19 and 20 are coming is not a VIZ moment and even the anime specifically adapted the original scene where Trunks claimed 20 and 19 will be coming to take everyone's life. When the Androids appeared, Toriyama's former editor thought they are a joke and Toriyama retconned the scene creating a plothole. After that ironically, 17 and 18's reveal caused his at the time current editor to complain which promptly got us Cell. It is also that editor that wanted Toriyama to change the design of Cell despite being final saying something like "At least he will transform soon." causing Cell from a cool lizard bug to be another transforming villain like Frieza which originally wasn't planned. I think it was implied that the future counterparts held back as 17 mentioned he held back in battle before finishing Gohan. Kinda funny you mentioned 16 blowing himself up as an iconic moment because I don't remember it. But now I recall him being blown up. His most iconic moment to me is being stepped on by Cell to trigger Gohan to get serious. I think specifically regarding Cell, in his imperfect form he didn't have a unique ki signature but his ki basically the ki of the characters he is composed off. And when he executed an attack, the power of the attack matched the power of said fighter at the time. At least that is what it felt like to me. It would kinda explain why Cell would stop using moves of other characters before reaching his semi-perfect form (except maybe solar flare because it doesn't matter how strong the attack is). After exploding, Cell really seemed to have gotten the ultimate plot convenient power up: - survives his own self-destruct - keeps his perfect form despite not having 18 in his body - gets a zenkai - LEARNs instant transmission - the reason he survived is a plothole fixed by the English translation of the anime because his core was blown up by Goku earlier as it is in his head. Goku blew away the entire head. And it gets confirmed again in the Boo Saga as Piccolo states he can regenerate as long as his head is unharmed. I am impressed Toriyama managed to do that in a way nobody is bothered by it. In several Video Games, Cell does use the Spirit Bomb. One of them being the first Tenkaichi. Funny thing is, the reason the Cell Jr's might be able to stop Final Flash is also because Cell trained apparently and probably knows how to handle the Final Flash. Those his Cell Jrs might have adapted that feature. Simply put, I think the Cell Jrs are identical copies to Cell having almost the same amount of power and abilities (except absorption maybe and regeneration in the anime). Funny thing about 14 and 15 is that after Toriyama named them, Toei mixed up their names. 14 is actually 15 and 14 is actually 15. The smaller one has some personality I like is that after Vegeta turned Super Saiyan, he took a sip of his bottle. I love it. Apparently at the time, Broli is stated to be the strongest after his movie came out. Many consider Broli to be weaker than Cell tho I disagree. So I assume many consider Super 13 fodder to Cell Saga characters. Probably the strongest character of the main cast is Piccolo at the time of the movie. My headcanon is that after killing Gero in Super 13, 17 and 18 joined a skater gang and no further conflict took place in the series. I think in terms of character Super 17 is very underrated. He suppose to be a killing machine with no emotion but when we see 18 appear, we see Super 17 actually showing that there is more to him than a mindless robot who follows orders. His personality is identical to 17 and his interaction with 18 show that deep down he doesn't want to kill her. If you watch when brainwashed 17 went to kill Krillin, Hell Fighter ordered him to met him but despite that 17 decided to have 18 join him. When he attacked to finish her off, he actually spared her life which 18 believed is because of the bomb inside her. Super 17 appears to not know why he spared her, it must be some psychological thing and I kinda like it. GT had a few of these like when Goku used Kamehameha times 10 to kill the 7 Star Dragon but subconsciously held back because he would be killing Pan. Also I feel Super 17 has the coolest moments in fights. When absorbing ki blasts from Goku, he is vibing. The beat down of the Z Fighters look fire, and after each action scene he cares about how cool he looks. We don't know if Hell Fighter 17 could absorb or not. He might have had functions we don't know about. I think it is a major misconception that many believe Hell Fighter, just because he looks like 17, is the exact same model. But he is build with Machine Mutant technology, he can fight GT Vegeta who believes 17 powered up beyond believe in the original translation and he has the ability to awaken the original 17's hidden powers which apparently suppose to be higher than Cell's. Which Cell? Considering everyone in Hell know each other, it must be Super Perfect Cell. While it might come off as dumb, I think it is reasonable as Gero shut down the Project and it is likely that Cell could not access 17's full power at all. Super 17 cannot sense energy but he can sense the vibration on the air and forsee his enemies moves which is why Goku had to resort to using Ki Blasts as it appeared that he cannot dodge those. Sadly, Super 17 purposely took down and Goku had to result to a trick he used against Yakon. Even in the Perfect Files they make a fuss about Super 17 being able to predict movements of his opponents and the only time he was caught off guard was because of his own attack, where Goku was able to instant transmission to grab him for a self-destruct move. Super 17 prevented both from dieing by using his shield. Dragon Ball Online had a lot of Androids apparently where also Cell X originated and apparently there is stuff like Android 19000.
Thanks so much for coming back and pointing this stuff out, friend! I like your takes about GT and the clarifications about some of the things that seem to be retcons/inconsistencies!
@@toughmangaming8275 I am glad you like them. Before there was a dub I could understand, I started watching GT in Japanese with subtitles so I am often dealing with people who think Gero and Mu made an identically weak 17 to merge and their power just "doubled". I wrote a review on the movie Super 13 where I talked about how unrealistic the transformation of 13 is after absorbing and it has to be because they were copying stuff from the source material repackaged. But thinking now, I wonder (the writers probably didn't think that far) if the other 2 Androids could do the same. It seems weird that an outdated model would have more features and is superior to later models by that much. Generally my opinion on Super 13 movie is, it should have been a prequel arc for the android Saga as filler and let the lesser characters fight them and maybe win. The anime had the opportunity to let Bulma get pro-active to wish to know the location of Gero's location only to waste the wish prematurely leading to the events playing out worse than in the future. And these androids could have been a teaser how powerful the real deal is. Maybe Goku could have intervened at some point and defeat the most powerful by a hair without needing to transform. Meh, maybe that was unneeded talk. But then it makes you wonder why Gero chose to become a weak energy absorbing model android over whatever 17 and 18 are, since they appear to be far more superior. I feel the story did not a good job in explaining this as Gero did appear to believe 17 and 18 are capable of defeating Vegeta, but chose to become what looks to me a lesser version. And I just recalled that Super Dragon Ball Heroes World Mission introduced 2 more Super 17 variation. One of them looks swole because he absorbed 19... or was it 16? I don't know. He did absorb both at some point.
You actually missed one form for Cell. In the Dragonball Online game there is a quest where you take on a giant more insect-ish sorta queen-bee looking version of Cell. But this video was very in depth and enjoyable otherwise! ^-^
Don't forget about the L's and R's in Japanese. It's not literally Dr "Flappy", you say it as Dr "Frappe", as in the coffee drink. A name pun, like so many others.
13:50 This is one of the reasons I like and respect 19. Not only is he the first character to beat a super saiyan, he is also the first to fight _two_ super saiyans back-to-back and sample super saiyan energy. Even Frieza himself had to wait a whole year before gettng his second fight with another super saiyan. 19 was also the most loyal android and---along with Gero, was one of Toriyama's _original_ choices for the main villains of the Android Saga...Plus, I just really like characters who can absorb energy.
This probably isn't canon, but in dbz kakarot, when rematching cell after reviving him, he says he lied about the core thing entirely as to keep his enemies guessing
Doesn't make much sense, the only people that learned that was gohan and co. When they already had seen him lose his head, and it didn't even help him at all as he died some minutes later xd
because his regeneration comes from his namekian DNA which utilizes a Core system (though thanks to Freiza DNA, his core can survive injuries that a namekian core would die from).
Man you are underated as hell, an hour and a half long video on the androids and you cover a lot of different materials, your way of speaking is also very calming ngl. (Also 21 mentioned 🙏🙏)
I mean it's pretty much been stated that literally anybody can reach these levels of power through training. It's not particularly surprising that similar feats could be achieved through science. Bulma literally created a time machine.
Pretty presumptuous to assume we know enough about souls in dragon ball (or even at all really,) to say that Dr. Gero needed to create them for his Artificial humans, he might try to claim he did, but I think it's more like if it "lives," it has an opportunity to develop one.
Hella good video, enjoyed the detail and thought brought in. Quick correction though for 20:00, I assume you're speaking of the 17 and 18 from the present timeline considering you mentioned their hunting game for Goku; it's actually a point in the series that other than Dr. Gero, 17 and 18 never actually killed anyone unlike their future selves.
Maybe Android 8 Was Restored But Not 16 Because He Counted As "Technology" Rather Than An Alive Being In The Cell Saga They Never Wished To Repair The Damage Made By Cell, Only Resurrect The People, While In The Buu Saga They Wished The Whole Planet Back, Which Of Course Included The Houses, Cities, Computers, Vehicles, Technology In General, Etc (Man Made Stuff) And Not Just The Natural "Empty" Planet Itself Basically, If Wishing Back Earth Restored Your House, Tv, Computer And Fridge That It Was Destroyed By Buu, Then It Sure Can Also Restore Android 8
I like Cell's lore better in Kai, where he said a single cell survived his explosion so that Cell can regenerate from just a single cell instead of what was said in Z of him having a "core" or "nucleus" that needs to remain undamaged.
Cell fun fact: Based on an optional pre-fight interaction with Goku in Dragon Ball FighterZ's Enemy Warriors Arc, Cell's experience in the afterlife is indescribably traumatic. No official statements I'm aware of have clarified what Cell's Hell is canonically like, but it's so awful he refuses to explain it to Goku, and tells Goku to "use your imagination" in regards to what goes on there. This implies it is nothing like the Hell seen in Z filler and movies or in GT, though based on the Resurrection "F" version of Frieza's afterlife, those were already dubiously canon.
I'm pretty sure that 17 18 and 16 exist becouse of Dragon Ball's editors. They were not happy with the "fat guy and old guy", so Toriyama made 17 and 18, but they were "just brats" so he made 16... ans then cell, who also had to evolve to look cooler
@@Seloliva1015 You're all good! Maybe I should've put it in the 19/20 section, but I felt like it was more fitting for Cell as it's sort of the origin for his character
Random dumb head canon. Cells core moves. It's in his stomach area in his perfect form and in his head in his semi perfect form. Could also explain the damage that Gohan's stomach blow did to make him regurgitate 18.
Also, about Cell having the lowest kill count... Vegeta only kills a planet in contentious anime filler. In manga canon, he literally kills nobody on earth (Nappa did all of it), and in the Namek saga only kills a Namekian village. He also kills a few drivers in his fight with 18, and part of a stadium crowd as Majin Vegeta. Cell definitely has a bigger kill count than Vegeta, at least for onscreen events.
This is probably true, however we do know that Vegeta has mentioned that he's slaughtered quite a bit of folks even in the manga. Thanks for the take though!
17:57 - 18:36 About Trunks calling the androids of his future 19 and 20, turns out that was in the Japanese version as well. The weirder thing is that not just the translations, but not even reprintings of the Japanese version ever bothered correcting it.
I dont know if this is true just my head cannon because of butterfly effect 20 and 19 probaly being\becoming androids because of trunks time traveling mabye im wrong or probably
I always thought that Cell was able to move his "core" inside his body. As in, it doesn't necessarily have to be in his head and could really be moved anywhere within his body, either by instinct or consciously. Which is why he's able to survive with his head and upper body being blown off by Goku, while making the statement about the core "being inside his head" a true statement at that moment
I love Android 17 and Android 18. I want Android 17 to be more involved with the Z-Fighters, and I really want to see Android 17 fight alongside Piccolo as a cool dynamic of how they fought each other and now they are fighting side by side. I also want to see Android 18 train and become stronger on the level of her brother and Goku and Vegeta, just up there with the big boy, because I know that she is a wife and a mother now and has a lot of responsibilities, but I just don't want her to be made a second rate lesser character like Tien and Piccolo because she also has infinite energy and stamina and has a lot of promise and capability to become a stronger and more serious threat. I also want to see Android 18 use force fields just like her brother.
Imagine talking about Cell's Spirit Bomb and NOT mentioning his use of it as an Ultimate in the Budokai games. And his harnessing of STUPID energy, destroying his opponent with the combined might of all Twitter users.
When it comes to power sources, I always find it fascinating to think about the characteristics Gero was designing for. From my ponderings I always end up thinking about "Maximum Output" (What the maximum output of ki/power that the power source and put out), "Output Control" (How well the output of a power source can be adjusted), Output Efficiency (This is a bit of a weird one; its the idea of how efficiently a power source can put out from its reserves/stamina at different levels of output. Kind of like how cars have different fuel efficiencies for different speeds, I imagine some power sources can be efficient at all levels of output, some are inefficient as they move away from max output, and those that get more inefficient as they approach max output), Rest Max Capacity (The level of stored energy a power source would rest at without external influxes, basically a full tank. Or in the case of Energy Absorption the level that an android will decay to without a constant source of Ki), and Recovery Speed (How quickly a power source can recover itself), and 'Characteristic Alteration' (Or if and how well these characteristics can be improved). I also like to think the fact one of the cell Jrs could reflect the Final Flash, and the fact they are 'tamed' later... Is proof that they're iterations of Cell rather than clones, possibly with forced mutations. More head cannon, is that they aren't like animals, but the genetics for socialization were probably streamlined to make the genome more stable. After all Gero could have used programs to condition Cell during development and gestation. But again, just casual head cannon. Anyways, fun video!
That was great background noise while i was grinding 7250 on dokkan's current burst mode ! thanks for that ! (didnt beat it tho, make better vids god dammit /j)
@@toughmangaming8275 i've been rockin' a very dodge-y team (and str super vegeta) so fights are long (i recently lost on turn 13 bc agl caulifla's a bi-) Also i had to tone it down to 7200, the 5x atk+100 just destroyed my less dodge-y units
17:38 i always thought the same events happen in order but with Goku catching the heart virus at home while the androids was blowing the city and the z fighterz had to fly out after Goku died, Vegeta prolly had to handle 19 as a super saiyan and then Gero unleashed 17 and 18. I also thought that since Goku was dead they couldn't fulfill and that they also didn't have 16 with them is what made a difference
considering base vegeta flexed on tien & krillin by busting open the door to gero's lab, and that (at least in the broly movie) you can multiply your power by having courage broski's tri-beam... NEO tri-beam was hella boosted just to piss cell off
I hadn't realized until you said it that Cell Semi-perfect didn't have wings, it blew my mind, I had to look at it on Google Images and I honestly didn't believe it XD.
Cells reveals in dbz: kakarot that he might not be entirely honest about revealing his regeneration core; also insisting hes just not going to explain his abilities too clearly. Showing that his dna is far more capable then he let on.
I argue Cell is not in super saiyan. That, or he's super saiyan at all times, and only shows his aura when powered up, like grade 4 super saiyan. Otherwise, he should be much stronger if he can go toe to toe against super namekian piccolo, and then go 50x stronger in their rematch
18:23 - It actually was a change in chapters after the production. Toriyama's former editor Kazuhiko Torishima disproved of Androids 19 and 20 as the main antagonist's of the arc. Kazuhiko also lead to the creation of Cell as well as he was also displeased by Android 17 and 18.
I always wondered that if Bulma never figured out that there was an underground secret lab area where cell was gestating, how strong would Cell be when it was finished? If you take into consideration when the future Cell(the one that reached his perfect form)attacked Trunks and took his time machine, that would put it at even further than we currently are or close to Dragon ball Super: super hero. That's a LONG time for the computer to make Cell even stronger or take even longer because of absurd developments(Buu and Beerus) I also, wonder if Android 17 and 18 being stronger could also affect Cell's imperfect and perfect forms, it wouldn't make much sense for him to not get a significant boost if instead of Cell saga 17 he absorbed ToP 17.
This is an interesting hypothetical. My guess is that Cell's perfecter forms would get stronger if he absorbed a stronger 17 and 18. Also, given what we know from Superhero, I do think it's possible (if left cookin) that Cell could've been one of the strongest monsters ever
Is that a challenge? Jk, it would be a fun video but it would probably take a LONG time, especially when we consider how Super added a bunch of more timelines.
54:35 I always applied the head-cannon that gero modified cells Regeneration to be better then piccolos. Say in a way he’s able to regenerate from anything. Idk why they never used this or tori his self as an explanation.
Question is Cell's absorption ability based on Namekian Assimilation. Cell should have Namekian, Saiyan, Frost demon and human DNA. He's compatible to Androids 17 and 18 but I don't think he can absorb other beings. His nutrient/power absorption is possibly based on mosquitoes and Doctor Gero's energy absorption. I'm not sure about his 3 forms but from what I think is that the computer designed his imperfect form to Frieza and King Cold's first forms. Cells semi perfect form reflects Frieza's final form and his Perfect form was based on Super Saiyan. Buff Cell and Super perfect Cell are just mutations of the Perfect Form. The androids are simply triggers but once the body remembers the transformations and he can retransform into his higher forms.
Cell lost to plot armor (a good plot armor but plot armor nonetheless) I like to imagine that TOP would of been better if cell was brought back instead of frieza
10:30 I personally did not fully understand what you called him (i believe Eighter(?) and im Mexican so its not like i could recall it lol But if it is Eighter i wouldn't really be the direct translation, as Hacchan is basically just the number 8 (Hachi) combined with "chan", so a more accurate translation would be Eighty but i understand why they didn't go with that since, you know, 80 Combining names with subfixes (chan, kun) in japanese is just a sign of affection generally done by girls or small kids, a fairly common example would be male names that start with "Ak" being cut to "Akkun"
54:35 I always thought that Cell could MOVE his core throughout his body, but he usually keeps it within his head. it's also pure headcanon basically but i don't see why he can't do it
Personally I have my own head canon as to why the future androids were so destructive and also weaker than their main timeline selves. We know from Cell's conversation with Piccolo during their brawl in Ginger town that Dr. Gero was observing the battles against King Cold and Mecha Frieza via is spy bugs. In the future timeline Trunks never appears, and it's actually Yardrat Goku who defeats the father son duo. Seeing a drastic shift in the data Gero would've acquired from the Saiyan Saga, with Goku's new form and a massive increase in power, Gero likely scrapped the designs he had for Android 19 and potentially turning himself into Android 20. Instead he likely worked on perfecting his behavioral adjustment tech for them, and while it failed as we know the androids killed him, some of it could've been effective which led to them lashing out against Earth. Gero likely also made sure not to upgrade them anymore, knowing they were likely around Goku's current power.
Regarding your soul question, the issue of 16 not being wished back that annoys me the most, is that 8'er is the same type and he got wished back along with everyone else after Kid Buu destroyed Earth.... so there's no reason 16 can't come back.
I would have loved Cell Max retaining Cell's personality instead of just being a big dumb clone. Having a line like "My my Gohan. Look how much you have grown." Or "Oh Gohannnnn, did you miss me?"
Probably you go into it later, but i think the most logical take away from 17/18 is they have some kind of zero point power source or something like that drawing energy out of subspace, which means they have infinite energy to draw on, but are limited by a max bandwidth or output at any given time. Which maybe if they were more clever about it, they could use that energy to store in an external form some how to draw out more to kinda cheat their beyond maximums.
you realy did a good job here but they were questions that i hoped you could answer that are mostly powerscaling questions. 1-how can a TACT android like 16 being stronger that a ssj which stated to have at least plannetry level durability an attack able to destroy a plannet from frieza wouldnt hurt trunks but a flying fist from 16 wil. 2-17 and 18 got infinite stamina, great but they dont have ki so how are they durable enough to withstand attacks from a super siayan and they certainly didn't get trained by dr gero right you might say they were modified on a cellular level but what is there to modify if they dont even have ki and this shouldn't get them as near as freiza durabilty who survived an explosion that could be seen on a galactic renge and the androids got wiped like a junk with a casual ki blast from trunks and in the same context how can people with no ki shoot ki blast call me a physcopath or whatever but I would like to see dr gero's modifications on them uncensored and detailed it wouldn't be to violent for db anyway we saw mch worse . 3-,how do the absorption parts of 19 and 20 work whats their orgin is are they mystical magical gems found by gero mechanical components made by gero and of they are how can they absorbe an attack that can produce enough power to destroy an entire plannet without breakinf appart? i realy appreciate how hard you worked on this video and wish you the best ❤
Thank you for the support! To attempt to answer the questions, my guess is that whatever Battery energy source Gero uses for 16 probably acts as a substitute for actual energy. Given the nature of ki, we know that it can be used to enhance the durability/AP of inanimate objects (Trunks's sword and Meerus's blaster). For the second one, I assume the same logic would apply, except it would be even more exaggerated given that the artificial energy is in abundance. Finally, I believe the gems probably aren't magical, but rather acts as some form of lightning rod for the the energy of others that they then can convert to their own.
@toughmangaming8275 OK thank you for the reply i appreciate it and realy adore your Job and your honesty for the source you use hope to see the channel grow 👍🏻
in japanese it's pronounced (and spelled) like frappé (frap-pay), the frozen coffee drink. I don't know why they changed it to be spelled wrong in the localization, but I'd imagine it's pronounced flappé (flap-pay).
Since the wish to bring back everyone killed by Cell did not bring back 16, that means that Android 16 does not have a soul. At least not one that the Dragon Balls are able to reconstruct.
I’m not sure when or where I heard this information, but I’ve heard somewhere that Android 13 is modeled off of a young Dr.Gero. Now, this could be total bullshit and some random headcanon someone thought up of- but I gotta say looking at the two side by side I buy it
my favorite fact by far was "the cell jrs are alive and have been mostly domesticated by 17"
The reason 19 & 20 became 17 & 18 was because when Toriyama's editor first saw them, he said they looked ridiculous and demanded he change the main antagonists.
That editor is the only reason krillin got some😂
A bit of correction, it was a former editor, and he didn't really demand Toriyama change it. He just said it sucked and would do the same for 17 & 18. That former editor is also the reason Semi Perfect Cell doesn't last long, he didn't like that one either.
@@masterprick1 No, said fromer editor you first mentioned was responsible for the former case, but not the latter: he complained about 19 and 20, but also about 17 and 18 since he thought they were just brats unfit of being the main villains: this is why Toriyama changed the villain again by creating Cell. It was his *current* eidotr at the time that complained about Cell's 1st and 2nd form being gross and ugly respectively.
@@succubastard1019This.
In case anybody needs their names for easier research, his former editor was Torishima Kazuhiko, known to be Toriyama's most strict editor. The current editor at the time was Kondo Yuu
This also created a plot hole, where Trunks even specifically mentions 19 & 20 being the ones causing trouble in the future. The anime fixes this.
Fun fact: The majority of 7-Eleven stores in this world are in Japan, so it’s 100% a reference
From Google: "Of the 71,000 stores around the globe, 21,215 stores (nearly 30% of global stores) are in Japan, with 2,824 stores in Tokyo alone." This is most certainly a reference. LMAO
That is awesome.
"In this world" lol looks like we need a lore video on 7 Eleven
@@TyroneLangam There's got to be a handful of Isekai worlds that have them. "I died and was brought back to fight the demon king, but he's my boss at 7 Eleven"
This Cell is comprised of 10.78% of Son Goku's DNA. These parameters, are aceptable.
DBZA did something that I think is interesting enough that I like to think of it as canon even though it obviously isn’t. TFS built off of Toriyama saying that 16 was based on Gero’s son who died in combat, and they had it so that his son died during Goku’s assault on the RR Army Headquarters. This idea really helps flesh out Gero, especially because it’s kind of weird that he’d have this more than a decade long grudge about the Red Ribbon Army’s defeat if he didn’t have more of a personal stake in it given that the RR Army was actually built to help Commander Red get taller, instead of having some ideological project to believe in (they told the soldiers that it was about taking over the world but that still isn’t really enough of an ideology to explain Gero being so attached to them).
Goku killing Gero’s son and that later causing the Cell saga just works really well as an unintended consequence of Goku’s actions.
Yes! Team Four Star is awesome and I loved this scene, I was thinking about referencing it but it does sort of go against Toriyama's specification that he dies in combat due to a stray bullet.
@@toughmangaming8275 I just explain this away in my head by saying that the stray bullet was going for Goku. Sure, that means Goku didn't kill him directly, but it would still mean he caused his death.
@@kenjyn76Yeah, it still works with the TFS scene, the chaos of an entire base firing off weapons to kill a tiny superpowered alien, there's bound to be a stray bullet there.
In the Budokai Games, Cell has the Spirit Bomb as an Ultimate that's pretty cool.
That is pretty cool!
@@toughmangaming8275 Always loved his dialogue doing it "All right planet, give me that stupid energy!"
@@zeroattentiongaming820 Cell threatening a planet for energy is one of those things you never knew you needed to hear until you do
he even has it in the Xenoverse games
I also love how it's a pretty justified move since, he's Cell. By the time he's perfect he drained several cities and did a funny on the news.
If I was a random schmuck and I heard his voice in my mind I'd raise my arms in fear. Which is a pretty sick twist on the spirit bomb.
My theory on why Androids 19 and 20 showed up instead of 17 and 18 in the altered timeline is that Trunks was just an unreliable source of information. He was a baby when all of this went down, and heard everything second or more likely third hand from his mother, as Bulma probably learned about everything from whoever survived the initial fight with the Androids. I also think things may have happened on a longer timeline than we assumed based on how things panned out in the altered timeline. Since the Z-Fighters didn't know they were coming, it's likely 19 and 20 were active for a little while before the Z-fighters caught up with them. Having heard something attacked an island 9 miles south of South City, they investigated, but maybe weren't able to confront them immediately. Since they can't sense the Android's energy, it would have been even harder to find them without Trunk's warning, so they may not have even found them on May 12, that was just when they became aware of them. When they did finally track the androids down, it went essentially the same as it did in the Altered timeline, with the obvious exception of Goku being dead. Since Gero hadn't factored in the increase in strength everyone gained on Namek in the Altered Timeline, I think that would still hold true in Trunks' timeline, and even without Goku there Vegeta and Piccolo at least greatly surpassed Gero's expectations and they managed to destroy 19, forcing Gero to retreat to activate 17 and 18. (I can't remember or was never clear on whether Vegeta was a Super Saiyan in Trunks' Timeline. Either way, I expect he was still strong enough to handle 19) After that, things went pretty much the way Trunks had forecast, with 17 and 18 killing off each Z-Fighter in turn until only Gohan was left. From there, Trunks grew up only ever knowing about 17 and 18. Bulma, not having known beforehand about the Android threat, wouldn't have gone with the guys to meet them and would have somehow learned about all of this later, with the parts about 19 and 20 being omitted because they'd been defeated and weren't relevant anymore, and so she never never told Trunks either. The only thing I can't reconcile is Trunks saying it was 19 and 20 who would show up when he warned Goku in the manga. I can only chalk that up to Toriyama's style of making it up as he went along and his editor forcing him to change things mid story. But that's my take on the timeline discrepancies. They weren't discrepancies at all, Trunks just didn't have all the details about how the initial encounter with the androids went down.
Personally, I couldn't see Trunks going about this without consulting Bulma.
My headcanon, is that 19 and 20 would've gone ignored in the future timeline, giving Gero some more time to install failsafes in 17 and 18 (making them both weaker). Then the Z Fighters would end up confronting 17 and 18 when they're inevitably released. How 19 and 20 were destroyed, I don't know. It's possible that Vegeta kept up with his training and then destroyed them before being taken out by 17 and 18. Or 17 just took care of them.
@kda9x See, I don't think Gero intended on confronting the Z-fighters at all, at least not when they did. I think he'd already nixed 17 and 18 because they were too hard to control, and Cell was plan A the whole time. He turned himself and 19 into energy absorption models because he intended to gather energy to speed Cell's maturation. Once he was fully powered, Cell could absorb 17 and 18 right from their stasis pods. But, 19 got ganked, Gero released the twins out of desperation and got ganked, and Cell was left to develop according to the computer's original parameters. I also think Gero's personal vendetta against Goku was exaggerated, or at least a secondary priority. Since in Superhero we learn he was still working for Red Ribbon, albeit more independently, I think running into Goku in the altered timeline was a happy accident (you know, until it wasn't and everything started going off the rails) and his plans would have proceeded whether Goku was alive or not.
@@grimlockprime1972I can definitely agree with you on the whole thing happening on a longer timescale. That's probably why the Future Androids are weaker. All the present Z Fighters being much stronger probably put everything on fast forward. Leading to Gero awakening them before he felt it was safe.
Well as far as the androids being weaker, the manga covers this. Trunks just wasn’t there when Future 17 told Future Gohan that they were holding back this time so the present androids would also need to hold back less against stronger Z-Fighters. Either that or they were made weaker to be slightly more controllable to go on destroying things when they’re stronger, present counter parts chose not to but still destructive. Although that might not be the explanation since in the present 17 and 18 have a purpose being finding Goku. Therefore they have something to do and no real reason to attack “people who run” unlike their future counterparts.
There’s also the notion of Goku being alive in the present which would be reason enough for Gero and 19 to personally take revenge where in the future Goku’s dead, so Gero can spend more time on the androids and they can break out without an interaction leading to 16 being awakened as we see in the anime. This could mesh well with “the future androids are weaker because of Gero and slightly less defiant” theory. There’s also Dr. Gero acting as Android 20 and trying to push the idea that Dr. Gero was dead until Piccolo called him out on his bs. So it’s entirely possible that if Trunks heard this information second hand, the narrative could be that Androids 19 and 20 “killed” Dr. Gero if no one could call him out on this since without Goku, there’s no reason for Gero to be be angry enough to cause a slip to reveal himself as Dr. Gero.
Also fun fact. The anime shows future 17 and 18 blasting Cell in his pod but he still survives and later kills Trunks, so there should be a present Cell in the main timeline and the first altered timeline since there’s no way Krillin (and Trunks in the main timeline) would’ve killed Cell if the androids didn’t.
It's implied Androids 19 and 20 just weren't a thing in Trunks' timeline, and the DBS manga would later reinforce this.
My guess is that if Toriyama had kept Android 16, 17 and 18 as the arc's main villains he might have given us an explaination as of why this exact change in time happened, but since he almost immediately added Cell into the story the chance to do so just got lost or felt unnecessary.
Bro spent more time talking about 17&18’s drip than any theories about how they ‘work’. I like it.
We get to the important topics here on this channel...
Extensive?
Overly complicated?
1.5 hours?!
Perfection 👌🏻
must be an android, then
For decades at this point, I have had this theory that there is a form of cell that we never got to see. See, when imperfect cell absorbed 17, he took on various masculine features. A very strong jawline, bigger frame in proportion to the rest of his body, and it has been state to be his tallest form. When he absorbs 18, a lot of those over the top masculine features get toned down.
I think, that had imperfect cell absorbed android 18, we would have seen an imperfect cell that looks pretty different and more feminine than any other form of cell, as for what that would entail, it's hard to say.
Draining-types do have infinite energy, and are technically an improved version of 17/18's generators (as they allow a fully mechanical entity to increase it's power over time, where as 17/18's reactors are partly bio-reactors that integrate with living tissue, and absorb ki progression of the user's body to improve output, which doesn't work for a machine body. 16 can't increase his power generation innately, but 19 and 20 can).
Since any energy drained permanently increases their output in the future, and takes much less time and effort than 17/18 need to in order to boost their generator's output levels, which requires just as much effort as normal ki growth.
Fun fact: The Android 13 movie actually came out before Cell stated he wanted to absorb 17 and 18, meaning that it’s entirely possible that Cell and 13 were created independently from each other. Probably not, but it’s possible.
I also remember seeing a headcanon that 13 might be modeled off a younger Gero. If you age Gero down, get rid of his facial hair, and shorten his hair, they look pretty similar.
Gero got hit hard by the old man genes and that would explain why he got with android 21 and why android 16 was big and jacked
My headcannon for 13 is that he was a prototype cell due to his absorbtion abilities
Chicken Sandwich
Chicken Sandwich
Sandwich of Chicken
Turkey sandwich 🦑💰
fish soup
Popeye's chicken sandwich 😭
18 being money-motivated after getting a family does make a lot of sense. Nearly every living being in her universe is either her friend, or beatable. She doesn't need food, has shelter, has love, and has purpose. All her sentient needs are met. The only thing left for her is maintain what she has while pursuing material desires/hobbies.
ZAMM
Oddly enough, tucking your pants into your socks (like how 17 does) is a surprisingly effective way to keep ticks off your legs irl.... Despite being a look only 17 can pull off.
Given that Super's version becomes a park ranger, part of me wonders how long Toriyama had that idea for 17 to become one in his head.
That's a really interesting fact I did not know! Thanks for sharing it!
The fact that you wrote hands even after editing the comment made me very confused for a moment, then very entertained.
@@l0rf to be fair, it was like... 3 in the morning when I wrote it (insomnia is a bitch lemme tell ya). Some autocorrects are gonna slip through.
Presumably Toriyama had the Park Ranger idea all the way back to at least the Buy saga when we saw him in a forest with his coat and gun, fun fact that scene was actually originally supposed to be launch in the manga but got changed to 17 at some point
@@JackedUpEntertainmenttoriyama hates her 💀
40:13 Pretty interesting detail that he used a form out of desperation he also mocked trunks for using. But attained a better form that has the exact same aura as Gohan’s after being pushed to the brink of death, basically he’s a saiyan at heart☠️
"She's WHOSE mommy???" Mine, gamer
I thought 19 is also like 20 and you can see his brain.
In GT, it appeared that Gero removed the red orbs which may be transferred into the final design of Super 17. There are several close ups to his palm revealing he lacks an energy absorber.
Trunks saying that 19 and 20 are coming is not a VIZ moment and even the anime specifically adapted the original scene where Trunks claimed 20 and 19 will be coming to take everyone's life. When the Androids appeared, Toriyama's former editor thought they are a joke and Toriyama retconned the scene creating a plothole. After that ironically, 17 and 18's reveal caused his at the time current editor to complain which promptly got us Cell. It is also that editor that wanted Toriyama to change the design of Cell despite being final saying something like "At least he will transform soon." causing Cell from a cool lizard bug to be another transforming villain like Frieza which originally wasn't planned.
I think it was implied that the future counterparts held back as 17 mentioned he held back in battle before finishing Gohan.
Kinda funny you mentioned 16 blowing himself up as an iconic moment because I don't remember it. But now I recall him being blown up. His most iconic moment to me is being stepped on by Cell to trigger Gohan to get serious.
I think specifically regarding Cell, in his imperfect form he didn't have a unique ki signature but his ki basically the ki of the characters he is composed off. And when he executed an attack, the power of the attack matched the power of said fighter at the time. At least that is what it felt like to me. It would kinda explain why Cell would stop using moves of other characters before reaching his semi-perfect form (except maybe solar flare because it doesn't matter how strong the attack is).
After exploding, Cell really seemed to have gotten the ultimate plot convenient power up:
- survives his own self-destruct
- keeps his perfect form despite not having 18 in his body
- gets a zenkai
- LEARNs instant transmission
- the reason he survived is a plothole fixed by the English translation of the anime because his core was blown up by Goku earlier as it is in his head. Goku blew away the entire head. And it gets confirmed again in the Boo Saga as Piccolo states he can regenerate as long as his head is unharmed.
I am impressed Toriyama managed to do that in a way nobody is bothered by it.
In several Video Games, Cell does use the Spirit Bomb. One of them being the first Tenkaichi.
Funny thing is, the reason the Cell Jr's might be able to stop Final Flash is also because Cell trained apparently and probably knows how to handle the Final Flash. Those his Cell Jrs might have adapted that feature. Simply put, I think the Cell Jrs are identical copies to Cell having almost the same amount of power and abilities (except absorption maybe and regeneration in the anime).
Funny thing about 14 and 15 is that after Toriyama named them, Toei mixed up their names. 14 is actually 15 and 14 is actually 15. The smaller one has some personality I like is that after Vegeta turned Super Saiyan, he took a sip of his bottle. I love it.
Apparently at the time, Broli is stated to be the strongest after his movie came out. Many consider Broli to be weaker than Cell tho I disagree. So I assume many consider Super 13 fodder to Cell Saga characters. Probably the strongest character of the main cast is Piccolo at the time of the movie.
My headcanon is that after killing Gero in Super 13, 17 and 18 joined a skater gang and no further conflict took place in the series.
I think in terms of character Super 17 is very underrated. He suppose to be a killing machine with no emotion but when we see 18 appear, we see Super 17 actually showing that there is more to him than a mindless robot who follows orders. His personality is identical to 17 and his interaction with 18 show that deep down he doesn't want to kill her. If you watch when brainwashed 17 went to kill Krillin, Hell Fighter ordered him to met him but despite that 17 decided to have 18 join him. When he attacked to finish her off, he actually spared her life which 18 believed is because of the bomb inside her. Super 17 appears to not know why he spared her, it must be some psychological thing and I kinda like it. GT had a few of these like when Goku used Kamehameha times 10 to kill the 7 Star Dragon but subconsciously held back because he would be killing Pan. Also I feel Super 17 has the coolest moments in fights. When absorbing ki blasts from Goku, he is vibing. The beat down of the Z Fighters look fire, and after each action scene he cares about how cool he looks.
We don't know if Hell Fighter 17 could absorb or not. He might have had functions we don't know about. I think it is a major misconception that many believe Hell Fighter, just because he looks like 17, is the exact same model. But he is build with Machine Mutant technology, he can fight GT Vegeta who believes 17 powered up beyond believe in the original translation and he has the ability to awaken the original 17's hidden powers which apparently suppose to be higher than Cell's. Which Cell? Considering everyone in Hell know each other, it must be Super Perfect Cell. While it might come off as dumb, I think it is reasonable as Gero shut down the Project and it is likely that Cell could not access 17's full power at all.
Super 17 cannot sense energy but he can sense the vibration on the air and forsee his enemies moves which is why Goku had to resort to using Ki Blasts as it appeared that he cannot dodge those. Sadly, Super 17 purposely took down and Goku had to result to a trick he used against Yakon.
Even in the Perfect Files they make a fuss about Super 17 being able to predict movements of his opponents and the only time he was caught off guard was because of his own attack, where Goku was able to instant transmission to grab him for a self-destruct move. Super 17 prevented both from dieing by using his shield.
Dragon Ball Online had a lot of Androids apparently where also Cell X originated and apparently there is stuff like Android 19000.
Thanks so much for coming back and pointing this stuff out, friend! I like your takes about GT and the clarifications about some of the things that seem to be retcons/inconsistencies!
@@toughmangaming8275 I am glad you like them. Before there was a dub I could understand, I started watching GT in Japanese with subtitles so I am often dealing with people who think Gero and Mu made an identically weak 17 to merge and their power just "doubled".
I wrote a review on the movie Super 13 where I talked about how unrealistic the transformation of 13 is after absorbing and it has to be because they were copying stuff from the source material repackaged. But thinking now, I wonder (the writers probably didn't think that far) if the other 2 Androids could do the same. It seems weird that an outdated model would have more features and is superior to later models by that much.
Generally my opinion on Super 13 movie is, it should have been a prequel arc for the android Saga as filler and let the lesser characters fight them and maybe win. The anime had the opportunity to let Bulma get pro-active to wish to know the location of Gero's location only to waste the wish prematurely leading to the events playing out worse than in the future. And these androids could have been a teaser how powerful the real deal is. Maybe Goku could have intervened at some point and defeat the most powerful by a hair without needing to transform. Meh, maybe that was unneeded talk.
But then it makes you wonder why Gero chose to become a weak energy absorbing model android over whatever 17 and 18 are, since they appear to be far more superior. I feel the story did not a good job in explaining this as Gero did appear to believe 17 and 18 are capable of defeating Vegeta, but chose to become what looks to me a lesser version.
And I just recalled that Super Dragon Ball Heroes World Mission introduced 2 more Super 17 variation. One of them looks swole because he absorbed 19... or was it 16? I don't know. He did absorb both at some point.
He also has Frieza and Cold's DNA. Them bois are durable
You actually missed one form for Cell. In the Dragonball Online game there is a quest where you take on a giant more insect-ish sorta queen-bee looking version of Cell. But this video was very in depth and enjoyable otherwise! ^-^
Yeah I knew he had something from DB Online, I wasn't sure if it was the same as the Cell X from heroes, but thanks for pointing it out!
52:32 Cell's first Genki Dama was Budokai 1 I believe. I remember him saying "Alright planet, give me that stupid energy!" before performing it lol
we love Stupid Energy
@@toughmangaming8275 who doesn’t! Lol
Excellent video btw, I really enjoyed it.
Don't forget about the L's and R's in Japanese. It's not literally Dr "Flappy", you say it as Dr "Frappe", as in the coffee drink. A name pun, like so many others.
13:50 This is one of the reasons I like and respect 19. Not only is he the first character to beat a super saiyan, he is also the first to fight _two_ super saiyans back-to-back and sample super saiyan energy. Even Frieza himself had to wait a whole year before gettng his second fight with another super saiyan. 19 was also the most loyal android and---along with Gero, was one of Toriyama's _original_ choices for the main villains of the Android Saga...Plus, I just really like characters who can absorb energy.
This probably isn't canon, but in dbz kakarot, when rematching cell after reviving him, he says he lied about the core thing entirely as to keep his enemies guessing
Doesn't make much sense, the only people that learned that was gohan and co. When they already had seen him lose his head, and it didn't even help him at all as he died some minutes later xd
This is pretty interesting!
Peak
10:30 hachi means eight and in some contexts is just shortened to ha like hapun(8 minutes) chan is an affectionate honorific
why did i watch this entire video even though i’ve literally never consumed DB-related content in my actual whole life
Never too late to pick it up!
I dont know why they didnt just make it so every cell in cell's body can regenerate. Thats what i always thought.
because his regeneration comes from his namekian DNA which utilizes a Core system (though thanks to Freiza DNA, his core can survive injuries that a namekian core would die from).
Its mainly because it'll be a waste of energy.
And an alternative is that his brain is bigger and more spread out than just in his head, even if the major functions are in his head.
Man you are underated as hell, an hour and a half long video on the androids and you cover a lot of different materials, your way of speaking is also very calming ngl. (Also 21 mentioned 🙏🙏)
Thank you so much!
I just can’t believe humans could create beings by default stronger than Namik saga Frieza.
I mean it's pretty much been stated that literally anybody can reach these levels of power through training. It's not particularly surprising that similar feats could be achieved through science. Bulma literally created a time machine.
Now a fatass made Jiren soloers
1:26:45 That's a reference to Shin Godzilla. Cell Max is basically Shin Godzilla, but Cell
Pretty presumptuous to assume we know enough about souls in dragon ball (or even at all really,) to say that Dr. Gero needed to create them for his Artificial humans, he might try to claim he did, but I think it's more like if it "lives," it has an opportunity to develop one.
They really stretched the definition of what an “android” is
Yeah they did...
To be fair, it's more of a dub thing. In the original, they were called "artificial human" or something like that.
@@masterprick1in Japanese they use the phrase "Jinzo Ningen" which basically means Artificial Human or Artificial Mortal
@@masterprick1 Ah, cyborgs, clearly befitting the definition of "artificial humans"
@@samuelrocandiobenito7924 Moreso than android. "Artificial Human" is a made-up term while android has a clear definition.
Hella good video, enjoyed the detail and thought brought in. Quick correction though for 20:00, I assume you're speaking of the 17 and 18 from the present timeline considering you mentioned their hunting game for Goku; it's actually a point in the series that other than Dr. Gero, 17 and 18 never actually killed anyone unlike their future selves.
Maybe Android 8 Was Restored But Not 16 Because He Counted As "Technology" Rather Than An Alive Being
In The Cell Saga They Never Wished To Repair The Damage Made By Cell, Only Resurrect The People, While In The Buu Saga They Wished The Whole Planet Back, Which Of Course Included The Houses, Cities, Computers, Vehicles, Technology In General, Etc (Man Made Stuff) And Not Just The Natural "Empty" Planet Itself
Basically, If Wishing Back Earth Restored Your House, Tv, Computer And Fridge That It Was Destroyed By Buu, Then It Sure Can Also Restore Android 8
I like Cell's lore better in Kai, where he said a single cell survived his explosion so that Cell can regenerate from just a single cell instead of what was said in Z of him having a "core" or "nucleus" that needs to remain undamaged.
Cell fun fact: Based on an optional pre-fight interaction with Goku in Dragon Ball FighterZ's Enemy Warriors Arc, Cell's experience in the afterlife is indescribably traumatic. No official statements I'm aware of have clarified what Cell's Hell is canonically like, but it's so awful he refuses to explain it to Goku, and tells Goku to "use your imagination" in regards to what goes on there.
This implies it is nothing like the Hell seen in Z filler and movies or in GT, though based on the Resurrection "F" version of Frieza's afterlife, those were already dubiously canon.
Perfect video, already finished and enjoyed a lot, well written, narrated and executed :) !
Thank you!
Wow that chibi infographic brings back memories
I'm pretty sure that 17 18 and 16 exist becouse of Dragon Ball's editors. They were not happy with the "fat guy and old guy", so Toriyama made 17 and 18, but they were "just brats" so he made 16... ans then cell, who also had to evolve to look cooler
Oh you said it in the cell section, sorry!
@@Seloliva1015 You're all good! Maybe I should've put it in the 19/20 section, but I felt like it was more fitting for Cell as it's sort of the origin for his character
Random dumb head canon. Cells core moves. It's in his stomach area in his perfect form and in his head in his semi perfect form. Could also explain the damage that Gohan's stomach blow did to make him regurgitate 18.
Not bad I like this
I like to believe cell lied to them about the core giving them false hope that if they destroy the core it’s game over when in reality it does nothing
this video was awesome! super informative and well scripted, you deserve way more subscribers!
Thank you! I really appreciate it!
I watched 21 minutes but I didn't even realize it. This is a great video and RUclips needs you bless your channel already
Also, about Cell having the lowest kill count... Vegeta only kills a planet in contentious anime filler. In manga canon, he literally kills nobody on earth (Nappa did all of it), and in the Namek saga only kills a Namekian village. He also kills a few drivers in his fight with 18, and part of a stadium crowd as Majin Vegeta.
Cell definitely has a bigger kill count than Vegeta, at least for onscreen events.
This is probably true, however we do know that Vegeta has mentioned that he's slaughtered quite a bit of folks even in the manga. Thanks for the take though!
17:57 - 18:36 About Trunks calling the androids of his future 19 and 20, turns out that was in the Japanese version as well. The weirder thing is that not just the translations, but not even reprintings of the Japanese version ever bothered correcting it.
That's crazy, thanks for highlighting it!
I dont know if this is true just my head cannon because of butterfly effect 20 and 19 probaly being\becoming androids because of trunks time traveling mabye im wrong or probably
Amazing. Thank you. I’ve loved 17 for about 20+ years
I always thought that Cell was able to move his "core" inside his body. As in, it doesn't necessarily have to be in his head and could really be moved anywhere within his body, either by instinct or consciously. Which is why he's able to survive with his head and upper body being blown off by Goku, while making the statement about the core "being inside his head" a true statement at that moment
In dbz kakarot (even though it’s not canon) Cell says how he was lying when he said the core was in his head
gotta say, I love this. I will continue to consume Toughman gaming content
I love Android 17 and Android 18. I want Android 17 to be more involved with the Z-Fighters, and I really want to see Android 17 fight alongside Piccolo as a cool dynamic of how they fought each other and now they are fighting side by side. I also want to see Android 18 train and become stronger on the level of her brother and Goku and Vegeta, just up there with the big boy, because I know that she is a wife and a mother now and has a lot of responsibilities, but I just don't want her to be made a second rate lesser character like Tien and Piccolo because she also has infinite energy and stamina and has a lot of promise and capability to become a stronger and more serious threat. I also want to see Android 18 use force fields just like her brother.
So. Not only did Xenoverse have a Spirit Bomb, but during Budokai and Infinite World all have Spirit Bomb moves.
Imagine talking about Cell's Spirit Bomb and NOT mentioning his use of it as an Ultimate in the Budokai games. And his harnessing of STUPID energy, destroying his opponent with the combined might of all Twitter users.
When it comes to power sources, I always find it fascinating to think about the characteristics Gero was designing for. From my ponderings I always end up thinking about "Maximum Output" (What the maximum output of ki/power that the power source and put out), "Output Control" (How well the output of a power source can be adjusted), Output Efficiency (This is a bit of a weird one; its the idea of how efficiently a power source can put out from its reserves/stamina at different levels of output. Kind of like how cars have different fuel efficiencies for different speeds, I imagine some power sources can be efficient at all levels of output, some are inefficient as they move away from max output, and those that get more inefficient as they approach max output), Rest Max Capacity (The level of stored energy a power source would rest at without external influxes, basically a full tank. Or in the case of Energy Absorption the level that an android will decay to without a constant source of Ki), and Recovery Speed (How quickly a power source can recover itself), and 'Characteristic Alteration' (Or if and how well these characteristics can be improved).
I also like to think the fact one of the cell Jrs could reflect the Final Flash, and the fact they are 'tamed' later... Is proof that they're iterations of Cell rather than clones, possibly with forced mutations. More head cannon, is that they aren't like animals, but the genetics for socialization were probably streamlined to make the genome more stable. After all Gero could have used programs to condition Cell during development and gestation. But again, just casual head cannon. Anyways, fun video!
There were 76 issues between Android 8's final appearance and the first appearance of 19 & 20.
That was great background noise while i was grinding 7250 on dokkan's current burst mode ! thanks for that ! (didnt beat it tho, make better vids god dammit /j)
I'll try harder next time! That Cell Burst Mode was pretty fun, it game me an excuse to bust out the old, dusty, STR SS Goku/SS Gohan.
@@toughmangaming8275 i've been rockin' a very dodge-y team (and str super vegeta) so fights are long (i recently lost on turn 13 bc agl caulifla's a bi-)
Also i had to tone it down to 7200, the 5x atk+100 just destroyed my less dodge-y units
@@GameKing972 Yeah I bet man, and props to you for running AGL Caulifla, that's gotta be an absolute slog...
@@toughmangaming8275 i needed a filler unit with a bunch of dodge under the pure saiyan category so... She's my best fit lmao
@@GameKing972 I see, well best of luck! I’m rootin for you!
Never forget that 19 and Geto were the original villains of the Android saga!
Cell Max's laser beams from every spot in his body are actually inspired by Shin Godzilla, who has a similar move in that respective movie.
17:38 i always thought the same events happen in order but with Goku catching the heart virus at home while the androids was blowing the city and the z fighterz had to fly out after Goku died, Vegeta prolly had to handle 19 as a super saiyan and then Gero unleashed 17 and 18. I also thought that since Goku was dead they couldn't fulfill and that they also didn't have 16 with them is what made a difference
considering base vegeta flexed on tien & krillin by busting open the door to gero's lab, and that (at least in the broly movie) you can multiply your power by having courage
broski's tri-beam... NEO tri-beam was hella boosted just to piss cell off
We stan Tien on this channel...
Tf Broly got to do with courage
I hadn't realized until you said it that Cell Semi-perfect didn't have wings, it blew my mind, I had to look at it on Google Images and I honestly didn't believe it XD.
Yeah, I called 21 "Mommy". I'm not lying nor' tryna deny it.
Cells reveals in dbz: kakarot that he might not be entirely honest about revealing his regeneration core; also insisting hes just not going to explain his abilities too clearly. Showing that his dna is far more capable then he let on.
I argue Cell is not in super saiyan. That, or he's super saiyan at all times, and only shows his aura when powered up, like grade 4 super saiyan. Otherwise, he should be much stronger if he can go toe to toe against super namekian piccolo, and then go 50x stronger in their rematch
His SSJs stem from the Perfect form, not necessarily the others
Just coming back to leave a second comment I hope this helps! Your work gets me through my job 😂❤ amazing video
Thank you and food luck, friend!
18:23 - It actually was a change in chapters after the production. Toriyama's former editor Kazuhiko Torishima disproved of Androids 19 and 20 as the main antagonist's of the arc. Kazuhiko also lead to the creation of Cell as well as he was also displeased by Android 17 and 18.
I like how he totally skipped over that part of 17 where it said he was married and had kids. 😂
I always wondered that if Bulma never figured out that there was an underground secret lab area where cell was gestating, how strong would Cell be when it was finished? If you take into consideration when the future Cell(the one that reached his perfect form)attacked Trunks and took his time machine, that would put it at even further than we currently are or close to Dragon ball Super: super hero.
That's a LONG time for the computer to make Cell even stronger or take even longer because of absurd developments(Buu and Beerus)
I also, wonder if Android 17 and 18 being stronger could also affect Cell's imperfect and perfect forms, it wouldn't make much sense for him to not get a significant boost if instead of Cell saga 17 he absorbed ToP 17.
This is an interesting hypothetical. My guess is that Cell's perfecter forms would get stronger if he absorbed a stronger 17 and 18. Also, given what we know from Superhero, I do think it's possible (if left cookin) that Cell could've been one of the strongest monsters ever
@@toughmangaming8275 Perfectist Cell.
A in depth analysis of the 3 major timelines would be a hard video to.
Is that a challenge?
Jk, it would be a fun video but it would probably take a LONG time, especially when we consider how Super added a bunch of more timelines.
Dr. Gero (sleek cool ruthless), his chubster son (OBESE soft cringe)
54:35 I always applied the head-cannon that gero modified cells Regeneration to be better then piccolos. Say in a way he’s able to regenerate from anything. Idk why they never used this or tori his self as an explanation.
Best video of its nature ever created on the entire internet
Question is Cell's absorption ability based on Namekian Assimilation. Cell should have Namekian, Saiyan, Frost demon and human DNA. He's compatible to Androids 17 and 18 but I don't think he can absorb other beings. His nutrient/power absorption is possibly based on mosquitoes and Doctor Gero's energy absorption. I'm not sure about his 3 forms but from what I think is that the computer designed his imperfect form to Frieza and King Cold's first forms. Cells semi perfect form reflects Frieza's final form and his Perfect form was based on Super Saiyan. Buff Cell and Super perfect Cell are just mutations of the Perfect Form. The androids are simply triggers but once the body remembers the transformations and he can retransform into his higher forms.
This is a really cool theory and I wouldn't be surprised if either of these are correct!
Cell lost to plot armor (a good plot armor but plot armor nonetheless)
I like to imagine that TOP would of been better if cell was brought back instead of frieza
This channel is my roman empire (I thought I already commented that)
Thank you for zooming in on among us when talking about android 16
Wait, so if Android 16 can't be brought back, then why was Eighter?
10:30 I personally did not fully understand what you called him (i believe Eighter(?) and im Mexican so its not like i could recall it lol
But if it is Eighter i wouldn't really be the direct translation, as Hacchan is basically just the number 8 (Hachi) combined with "chan", so a more accurate translation would be Eighty but i understand why they didn't go with that since, you know, 80
Combining names with subfixes (chan, kun) in japanese is just a sign of affection generally done by girls or small kids, a fairly common example would be male names that start with "Ak" being cut to "Akkun"
Eighter is what they translated Hacchan to in the English dub of DB.
Eighter is the nickname Goku gave him in the English dub.
Some of them aren't even Androids, they're Cyborgs. 17, 18 and Dr Gero were Cyborgs.
He literally stated this in the beginning of the video😂😂
54:35 I always thought that Cell could MOVE his core throughout his body, but he usually keeps it within his head. it's also pure headcanon basically but i don't see why he can't do it
I believe Android 13 look is also possibly inspired by how younger Dr Gero might have looked like.
18 is weaker than 17 because Gero was trying to control her more
love the video! though, small pronunciation correction, his name is Doctor Gero, not Doctor Jero.
28:44 the money thing might be for maron's future like getting her into a good college
0:57 #16 was a failure because of personality? Why? He is completely loyal AND was the strongest android even after 17 and 18 were made
Personally I have my own head canon as to why the future androids were so destructive and also weaker than their main timeline selves.
We know from Cell's conversation with Piccolo during their brawl in Ginger town that Dr. Gero was observing the battles against King Cold and Mecha Frieza via is spy bugs. In the future timeline Trunks never appears, and it's actually Yardrat Goku who defeats the father son duo.
Seeing a drastic shift in the data Gero would've acquired from the Saiyan Saga, with Goku's new form and a massive increase in power, Gero likely scrapped the designs he had for Android 19 and potentially turning himself into Android 20. Instead he likely worked on perfecting his behavioral adjustment tech for them, and while it failed as we know the androids killed him, some of it could've been effective which led to them lashing out against Earth. Gero likely also made sure not to upgrade them anymore, knowing they were likely around Goku's current power.
47:16 The perfect mewing
Perfect jawline
@@toughmangaming8275 Doctor Gero really doing Dende's work here
Regarding your soul question, the issue of 16 not being wished back that annoys me the most, is that 8'er is the same type and he got wished back along with everyone else after Kid Buu destroyed Earth.... so there's no reason 16 can't come back.
I would have loved Cell Max retaining Cell's personality instead of just being a big dumb clone.
Having a line like "My my Gohan. Look how much you have grown." Or "Oh Gohannnnn, did you miss me?"
Nice video. I watched all of it
this video fucking rules dude. good job and thank you
Thank you so much!
Came here from the "how to the dragon balls work" video. Wanted to say awesome content. Subscribed and looking forward to whats next.
54:00 i think its reasonable to say he has a few cores like in his chest or sumn.
Def wasnt planed tho like u said lol
Probably you go into it later, but i think the most logical take away from 17/18 is they have some kind of zero point power source or something like that drawing energy out of subspace, which means they have infinite energy to draw on, but are limited by a max bandwidth or output at any given time.
Which maybe if they were more clever about it, they could use that energy to store in an external form some how to draw out more to kinda cheat their beyond maximums.
you realy did a good job here but they were questions that i hoped you could answer that are mostly powerscaling questions.
1-how can a TACT android like 16 being stronger that a ssj which stated to have at least plannetry level durability an attack able to destroy a plannet from frieza wouldnt hurt trunks but a flying fist from 16 wil.
2-17 and 18 got infinite stamina, great but they dont have ki so how are they durable enough to withstand attacks from a super siayan and they certainly didn't get trained by dr gero right you might say they were modified on a cellular level but what is there to modify if they dont even have ki and this shouldn't get them as near as freiza durabilty who survived an explosion that could be seen on a galactic renge and the androids got wiped like a junk with a casual ki blast from trunks and in the same context how can people with no ki shoot ki blast call me a physcopath or whatever but I would like to see dr gero's modifications on them uncensored and detailed it wouldn't be to violent for db anyway we saw mch worse .
3-,how do the absorption parts of 19 and 20 work whats their orgin is are they mystical magical gems found by gero mechanical components made by gero and of they are how can they absorbe an attack that can produce enough power to destroy an entire plannet without breakinf appart?
i realy appreciate how hard you worked on this video and wish you the best ❤
Thank you for the support! To attempt to answer the questions, my guess is that whatever Battery energy source Gero uses for 16 probably acts as a substitute for actual energy. Given the nature of ki, we know that it can be used to enhance the durability/AP of inanimate objects (Trunks's sword and Meerus's blaster).
For the second one, I assume the same logic would apply, except it would be even more exaggerated given that the artificial energy is in abundance.
Finally, I believe the gems probably aren't magical, but rather acts as some form of lightning rod for the the energy of others that they then can convert to their own.
@toughmangaming8275 OK thank you for the reply i appreciate it and realy adore your Job and your honesty for the source you use hope to see the channel grow 👍🏻
@@hope14359 thank you so much!
None of that is addressed in the story lmao
And they merk stars
@batguy39 yup they were expecting that were not gonna wonder how machines and half machines can beat super saiyans with plannetry+ durability
16 is chilling in heaven enjoying nature and birds, hell yeah 😎
in japanese it's pronounced (and spelled) like frappé (frap-pay), the frozen coffee drink. I don't know why they changed it to be spelled wrong in the localization, but I'd imagine it's pronounced flappé (flap-pay).
That makes a lot of sense
Since the wish to bring back everyone killed by Cell did not bring back 16, that means that Android 16 does not have a soul. At least not one that the Dragon Balls are able to reconstruct.
Super 17 may be lacking in the personality and dialogue department, but you're forgetting one thing. He's hot
yeah if you're a pdf file or some shit. dude looks like he is 12
@@SavingSoulsMinistries ???? In what fucking WORLD does he look like a 12 year old 😭 what is wrong with you
I thought 17 and 18 were equal strength in Z but in Super one of them trained harder and a gap formed
Wow, great job with this video!
I’m not sure when or where I heard this information, but I’ve heard somewhere that Android 13 is modeled off of a young Dr.Gero. Now, this could be total bullshit and some random headcanon someone thought up of- but I gotta say looking at the two side by side I buy it
I believe this was a theory WAY back in the day. Thanks for pointing it out though, it just unlocked some memories!