Thanks very much! It's great to have someone taking care of these, "peripherial" settings. Explaining it in an easy to get way and give great advice! "My wife is smarter than you and me!... Honey! Can you push down on these vats for me? Thanks."I don't think you've utilised her intelligence and skills to full depth! :D
Not even scratched the surface of her abilities lol, but she's not into 3d-printing so it's hard to utilize her considerable math skill, she's more into the math verifying the existence of black holes and stuff at that level that I don't even understand...
Thank you for these vids... as a noob, I'm beginning to see the importance of lifting speed, (first as a solution to colder conditions), and now, (as you are so brilliantly pointing out). I now see the height is just as crucial, especially with newer printers and larger build volumes. I am definitely going to 6mm - 7mm as a safety height. This whole tech is just amazing... we have no idea what's coming next. I will be looking to builders like yourself that are spearheading this arena. I love the way you are breaking this down for us!!!
I'm new to 3d printing and like many, have watched youtube about 3d printing and learnt a lot. I just wanted to say thanks for the knowledge that you provide. It has really helped me with many issues that I was having and am still learning every day on how to improve my printing. Thanks mate! Oh and I just wanted to share a comment my better half said " you hear that, his missus is smarter than him, see, there is always a greater women behind a man" lol...
I just got into resin printing. Great video, very educational. Having my share of success and failure, the current state of technology seems very primitive. Advocates like you push the craft forward to where it needs to be. Thanks for your focus.
Good lord. The stuff you are discovering is so valuable, and I can't believe hasn't been taken into consideration by the manufacturers when they advise on setting up new printers! Great stuff.
I have been looking for the answer to my weird lines around the larger cross sections for almost a week and finally found this video. Thank you so much for the information. I’m starting on the Elegoo Saturn 2 and this clears up so much stuff.
Thanks so much! I’m a noob to 3D printing trying to learn with Lychee. Thanks to this clear explanation I finally understand what happens if you change the lifting settings!
Great video, however I believe lift height is only part of the equation. I worked several years in automotive and aerospace industries completing Peel Adhesion and Peel Strength testing against various ASTM standards. As the lift and film separation begins there would be an increasing amount of force on the film as the resin in the vat slips back onto the seperated film (Mass to Force Ratio). Having a larger amount of resin in the vat would provide an increased amount of force onto the film and would reduce the amount of upward flex of the film. Another factor would be the placement of the model on the bed, as there would be less flex near the edges of the buildplate/vat. Model placement was a factor in previous Gen printers, but should be reduced with the newer light sources.
Yep, also the lift speed as I mentioned, the FEP tension, heat from printning (which makes the FEP a bit more flexible), resin viscosity, the factors and the math involved are not easy when you compile all of it, that's why I don't go too far into the weeds :)
Also the fact that the FEP is under tension. So while it can be deformed it doesn't want to be deformed and is trying to pull away from the print. Honestly I think it's important stuff to know but it also seems people try to fix failure issues with increased bottom layers and exposure times. Which could stick more to the FEP and require a higher lift to get enough tension force to peel it away. But it's kind of a fix for another issue altogether. However with larger printers and larger FEP it's going to flex more with less tension due to increased size. So if with proper exposure times 5mm is plenty for a small printer like my Voxelab Proxima 6" a 8" printer is probably better served by 6 - 7mm and I would guess a 10" might be better with 8 - 10mm lift height. Just because under equal tension the larger sized FEP is going to flex more.
Mate this advice is golden. This and the lift speed advice is going to be essential for bigger printers, especially the monsters like the Phenom L. Yeah they may slow down the process, but its better than failed prints. Hammer on bro
Great vid, theres tons of testing that can be done on this subject! I generally listen to the peel on the first few layers, if it pops half way through the initial layers, then im pretty confident it will survive the rest
Been wondering about this for a while. Rolling with 7mm on my saturns. Thanks for he demo and explanation. I always wondered about layer lines. Your explanation makes a ton of sense.
@@3dprintingpro212 And this is exactly what I needed to know for my saturn. First printer, so I really appreciate all your videos to get my dumb self educated.
Greg you are as real as real gets. So incredibly refreshing on youtube these days. Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of fantastic youtubers with flashy production values etc that I know and love, but, there's something just awesome on a whole different level with your legitimacy. Keep up the great work!
I been rewatching your video cuz I had a failed print and part was stuck to the fep, I had my lift to 3/4,but now I changed it to 6/7 and re printing hopping it comes out perfect
You can think of it like your bed sheets. If the sheet (fep film) on the mattress (vat / printer) really tight you can still pinch the middle with your fingers (model) when you lift your fingers to a certain height the sheet will release from your fingers. If the sheet is on looser you can lift your fingers higher.
Got a Saturn about 2 weeks ago and you are spot on, 7mm I think is the lowest you want to go, took about 4 prints to dial it in to where there were no lines, no tiny tear holes, the lift speed had to go way down. Went all the way down to 30mm lift speed and with 7mm or 8mm lift height, getting really clean big prints
Thank you for this video! It explained a lot of the undesirable and failed results I was getting. I have gotten much more consistent and better prints after changing the lift height.
I just got a medium-format printer for my first resin printer and have been wondering why some prints are doing this. I focused on adding more cure time to make my supports stronger, but this clarified what is actually happening and what to test with.
Man, I think this is exactly what I needed to hear. I have models that print great individually, but when I loaded up my build plate, all failed. Hmmmm 🤔. Lift height/speed?
Thanks, I was using 3mm before, changed it to 7mm now. I did a similar test on my own vat and FEP and noticed that I had to use quite a bit of force to push it down at 6mm, so I put it to 7mm to be safe.
Great video. It’s knowing the small details like this that all add up to a satisfying printing experience. Feeling sorry for the 18 people (at the time I am writing this) who gave a thumbs down. Guess they know it all. 🤓
Great video, but I feel it missed out a few other aspects. Tension not only limits the extent to which the FEP can deform, but also creates force when the FEP has been deformed. This means that whilst the FEP could deform to, say, 5mm, once it has deformed there is a force acting on it trying to pull it back down again (which is mainly what helps it peel off). So long as there is enough time this force will release the FEP even if our build plate only raises to that 5mm extent. This brings in lifting - the slower your lifting time the longer the tension force has to act upon the FEP and pull it back down (and the less force is applied at any one particular point in time, which can help limit stress on the print). The other aspect is build size. You mention bigger, heavier models will have more suction force on the FEP and greater capacity to deform it (which completely makes sense), however shape also plays a part. If you had say one 10mm diameter in the middle, or even near the side, of the FEP it would likely (I've not tested to be fair) pull the FEP up higher than a larger area, or a few smaller areas, spread out across the build plate, because that deformation is spread across more of the sheet.
People with budget to midrange machines are likely to experience more of a problem with this! The machines are less rigid. (smaller cheaper rails & screw, less and thinner metal overall). I've been watching some of the Phrozen Sonic Mini 4k videos, you can easily see the lifting plate flexing (the piece the build plate attaches to). *Changing the lifting speed should significantly reduce the wear of both the FEP & the nut on the lead/ball screw, even possibly the life of the screen (getting less harsh slapping). As a mechanical engineer and also a mechanical tech, I look at it like this: being forced to spin fast + against a high load + load applied with a racking torque = recipe for wear and eventual slop That 5-6mm test is very good. I think you are likely spot on for why people get random lines in some of their prints. I think you could demonstrate the lifting speed effect with masking tape and printer paper. pull too fast, and the paper crinkles instead of separating. Pull slowly, even stop, and you see the tape continue to peel off slowly until it reaches the limit of how much it will peel...for how far you pulled it. A slower and farther lift will be less harsh on the paper and more consistent/reliable.
I have a larger resin printer, I have had issues with larger prints creating wrinkles in my FEP. Using Sirayatec Strong resin. I had issues with prints having hollow spots and was told by someone on FB to slow my lift speeds and possibly use longer cure times, I believe we even found I needed cool down time between layers my printer didn't have any cool down time in it's default settings. But still have issues with the FEP film.
I don't understand how you can make the FEP too tight or too lose. I'm not trying to be mean to anyone or anything but it would be extremely difficult to stretch it before you install it. Same thing with it being too lose. Wouldn't it have big creases in it?
thank you for great great explantation for FEP tension how to make the print fail, that should be the big one reason for me. btw , had someone told you look like Vin Diesel?
the last thing i printed had some lines in it and I wondered why... now I know lol... Ive got the Anycubic Mono X so it's gotta be having some separation issues... Im going to increase that distance and see how well it does from here on out.
Very instructive as always. Thank you. :) I never had any problems with a lift height of 5mm with a lift speed of 40mm/minutes, but I'm gonna increase that to 6mm to be on the safe side.
Is it really not possible to completely eliminate suction and peal forces from resin printers? With as long as resin printers have been a thing, I would've thought something like this would've been eliminated by now... There HAS to be some kind of coating that could be applied to the fep to completely eliminate cured resin from sticking at all. And suction shouldn't ever be an issue with proper hole placement.
Good video! My KL9 is recommended for 12mm from the manual. I did my first pint on it last night, a test file from the included USB drive, and still got a line but had some support failures and also paused to add more resin.
As I've not run a resin printer myself (yet!) this is all theoretical in my head, but from my point of view, the FEP from a design angle is the weak point of resin printing. I understand its purpose, but is there no other way unless one was able to find a rigid material that's as transparent as FEP for light transmission but has amazing non stick properties that a print would not stick to it, would that not cure the issue and speed up printing? I'm also something of an engineer that specialized in problem solving. =) It is my most favorite thing to do and many of my best inventions have come about from precisely that facet.
I'm not an expert, but isn't the bending of the FEP sheet needed in order to release the print? If it were 100% rigid there would be a vacuum between the print and the sheet and I imagine you couldn't get it off without huge force.
you can hear when you tapped the FEP that it is not fully tensioned. as you said, these vats are used, and you obviously havent re-tensioned the fep before conducting these "tests" (testing without controls really isnt a decent test). if ppl maintain correct tension, so that the FEP rings like a bell / bongs like a drum, plucks like a string, when tapped, they wont have issues with 5mm.
I find 10mm is good for a mono-x... but if my fep is old and/or my model has a large crossection I can still get lines or failed prints.. so then I increase it to 12 or even 14mm.
The lift height can be tuned by listening. Listen for the rise and slap and make sure you hear a little more rise afterwards. This guarantees you have some margin on height.
ESPECIALLY with the bigger printers! I just purchased a Saturn and what they did with the g-code (it appears)was go slow for the first half of the lift, (speeding up in 3 increments) and then full blast for the second half of lift. (Elegoo has a video on it, check it out) I stood there and watched the printer and the print WAS NOT releasing from the FEP before it started full blast and then you could hear the release happen (at full lift speed). It was no wonder I had failures! I want to see if I can edit the g-code myself and come up with a better configuration formula to both accommodate time and better printing. What I did for now was change the 7mm setting to 12mm.(for both bottom and regular lift) Maybe that's overkill for now but what you can do is stand next to the printer and listen closely (you can usually hear the final peel moment) and notice at what stage of the lift the peel happens. Even at 12mm it still comes close to releasing at full blast mode at certain points in the print. (peeling moment varies throughout the stages of printing). I will also tighten up the FEP when I change it next time, because with the huge vat size the stretch (especially in the middle is enormous when printing small items). Last tip, level without paper or maybe use super thin tissue paper. Let's face it, the build tables are not dead flat and neither is the screen. The closer you get to the glass or the screen, the more likely you prints will stick will to the table, that's just a fact. This alone it one of the best things you can do to ensure the part stays stuck to the plate from the start of the print. : ) Thanks for the videos!
Also I am going to head to the machine shop and put an indicator on the bottom of the build table to see how close they are getting to flat. I can see that with both the mars and the Saturn that there is usually one or two corners that you can still slide a sheet of paper under (at home position) and that would be the part of the build to avoid if possible. I may just shave a few thousands off the bottom and re-indicate to make sure it's flat within one or two thousandths or an inch. (ideal)
Thanks for the video! Very interesting. Another question I had, don't think you made a video on it, was, how to make models sharper? Like higher resolution?
For my case (Chitubox + Photon-fauxton) settings on Chitubox doesnt translate to the real print settings. If you go into settings when you start a print, you will notice the speeds and lifting amount are not the ones in the sliced settings. Users may need to manually edit those settings on the print menu of the machine once prints is underway!
i figured this out week 1... how do you test this? easy...listen to the fep. it always makes a noise when it releases. just add height if it doesnt. I normally use between 2-3mm. 3mm bottom, 2.5-2.8 normal. depends on exposure time because higher exposures make it stick more and lower numbers require less lift. I'm a self taught engineer.
Just saw your video on light off time, and this. Maybe adding a couple of mm height and slowing elevation speed might be enough to the light off 2secs cool feature you recomend
Some good info, but I don't see the correlation of your FEP film push test over the disc and the release point of resin when being pulled off by the plate. That test makes no sense to me.
I'm for "bebe"s as the next guy, but close-ups at the vats and fep would be welcome in the first place. We can and do appreciate the content, more zooms at the things you talk about would be great (and yes, I saw close-ups later, I mean they should be main focus of the video in the first place)
Thanks for video. After watching it seems like you would be better off printing as close to a vat edge as you can so you go from the "suction" force component to the "peel" force component quicker.
I have been having problem printing the Pre-Supported Artisans Guild Miniatures because I need to scale them down to 80-90% to fit the 28mm scale. Do you have any tips or tricks for this so I do not need to redo the supports for every model?
hmm, that makes me think, that placing bigger models near the edge would be a good idea since FEP deformes a lot less there, and it may compencate for the bigger suction forces.
From what i have read an discovered nfep film is just epax brand name for Teflon PFA film. If you find generic bulk PFA film.its even cheaper than fep films.
I use my ears to ascertain the height. By that I mean that I listen for the sound of the print releasing. The initial layers need more too. In fact, making sure that the initial lift needs to be a bit more too. I use my ears as a guide :)
Hello, Question: What is the difference between Z Lift speed and Z Retract speed? Would someone please explain. Thank you. I got a Mono X last week. Could not get test print to work. 8 tries later I discovered the printer itself was not level. I didn't check that as I thought printing bed was the only thing where leveling was important was the build plate. The machine was a half bubble off level in 2 directions. I got 2 builds that worked since then. Playing around with settings now to dial it in.
I have a mono x too, and from what I can tell, the lift speed is the rate at which the build plate moves up (away from the fep), whereas the retract speed is the rate at which the build plate moves down (towards the fep).
Thank you Jonathan. Anycubic support told me to look in the manual. So I did and it has recommended settings, but no explanation what does what. I experimented and came up with same understandings as you.
i get perfect prints at 40/mm/min But it was so slow a print took me 26 hrs, and it was so annoying. So i pumped it up to standard 65 mm/min and everyting went to shit so i went back to 40 xD
I have a question... Is the deformation of the fep after pressing the end with the 6mm ball relevant when making an impression? Thanks a lot for all the info and the help to the 3d beginners!
Would be interesting if there was a stepper motor than you could record the dynamic torque and plot that against time to get a force curve. From this you could determine where the fep released (drop in force to constant level) and feed this back into the software to have a dynamic lift height based on layer area and model positioning. Probably would cost more than these budget printers bud would be an interesting project.
I'm super new to this...6 weeks with a Photon Mono x 6k and have had 2 prints not fail, and they still look like ass. My FEP is as tight as a drum from the factory. Think that's a reason?
Excellent video, thank you for going into this! I've been using a PTFE lubricant on my fep when cleaning out the vat. Any idea how much this helps separate the fep from the build plate during lifting?
Struggling hard, just got my anycubic photon, first prints went very well and even one my custom stl for a 28 mm figure got through fine. Then nothing is printing anymore. Searched why my first layers stick to build plate but then it starts sticking to the FEP once it gets to supports. No damage to the plastic film. I use your setting for the elegoo gray . Build plate is perfectly leveled. Bit discouraged, trying now after tightening the film and warming up the resin. Temperature in basement is quite low, hope it's one or the other. If not I'll try raising lifting height from 5 to 6 mm see if it makes a difference, will try to let you know.
I'm a moron, this actually forced me to look at my settings again, and my lifting distance was set at 0.5 instead of 5. No wonder I had the impression the build plate did not move. I have no clue how this happened between 2 different stl slicings. Anyways, thanks, this helped me in an unplanned way :D
i thimk you may be wrong about bigger models needing highr lift. the smaller model pulling in the center will allow more fep flex because the flex goes to a smaller point. try your flex test with a larger diameter (puck) shaped model and you'll see what i mean. it would also be good advive to place prints closer to the edge when printing because theres lesss flex there. keep up the great videos btw
Great video as always! I am new to resin printing and your videos help a ton!! This video though left me wondering, if the FEPs at the end, were seriously damaged and need replacement, or if it would be considered OK to keep using them in that state Could someone please clarify this? Many thanks in advance
Woah my z lift distance is 3mm for my photon zero. So I might be doing it wrong huh ? This might explain the mysterious dents I have on the right side of my fep. Thanks man.
Would it be a good idea to print closer to the edge rather than center to reduce the amount of lift needed? I think you run into other problems though with exposure if you do?
so I'm using lychee and I'm getting duel lift speed and distance along with retraction speed. most videos I've watched have only one and was wondering how would I mess with those settings? I have the Photon M3.
Thanks as always Greg - another thing with adding the lift height is we'd give the screen time to cool a bit (like a lightoff time) - which may even make the screen last longer.
So after watching your FEP tuning video...I am wondering if it is best to tune it to the top range or lower range when considering that you might have prints sticking to the FEP?
Thank you again for an informative (and timely) video. I have an LC Magna and have been having nothing but problems, so I just tried your advice. Interestingly, the model I was printing with the previous settings, took 2 days. I then changed the 'Z Lift Distance' to 6 mm (from 3 mm) and the 'Z Lift Speed' to 150 mm/ min (from 200 mm/ min). Strangely, the expected print time has dropped to 1 day, when I would have thought it would, at least, double. Nothing else was changed. Any ideas why? Thank you
hi im late to this party. what is a good way to test this on my phrozon mighty 8k... as i love the quality i get, but at 8mm lift height its sometimes an 8 hour print...
Thanks for another really good explanation. Does anybody know why all the lift height options are not there (in chitubox) on the Elegoo Mars profile? They are there on the default printer profile.
i just started printinf 28mm minis and the detail is lacking. im using an anycubi photon and the grey anycubi resin. ive seen people getting better results with the same set up. any idea what the resolution settings should he for 28mm?
2mm lift height for 0.04mm layer height and worked great. So I don't see how lift important and disagree with your logic because your looking at it from just one aspect of physics which is the elastic effect and doesn't take in account the more important aspects such as material friction.
Thanks very much! It's great to have someone taking care of these, "peripherial" settings. Explaining it in an easy to get way and give great advice!
"My wife is smarter than you and me!... Honey! Can you push down on these vats for me? Thanks."I don't think you've utilised her intelligence and skills to full depth! :D
Not even scratched the surface of her abilities lol, but she's not into 3d-printing so it's hard to utilize her considerable math skill, she's more into the math verifying the existence of black holes and stuff at that level that I don't even understand...
Maybe she'd be interested in a 3D printed black hole model
@@nairocamilo if you start the 3d printing hobby, a black hole will automatically manifests in your wallet XD
Thank you for these vids... as a noob, I'm beginning to see the importance of lifting speed, (first as a solution to colder conditions), and now, (as you are so brilliantly pointing out). I now see the height is just as crucial, especially with newer printers and larger build volumes. I am definitely going to 6mm - 7mm as a safety height.
This whole tech is just amazing... we have no idea what's coming next. I will be looking to builders like yourself that are spearheading this arena. I love the way you are breaking this down for us!!!
I'm new to 3d printing and like many, have watched youtube about 3d printing and learnt a lot. I just wanted to say thanks for the knowledge that you provide. It has really helped me with many issues that I was having and am still learning every day on how to improve my printing. Thanks mate! Oh and I just wanted to share a comment my better half said " you hear that, his missus is smarter than him, see, there is always a greater women behind a man" lol...
So glad someone is explaining this in a way that is easy to understand. Your vids have made a big difference in the quality of my prints. Thanks!
I just got into resin printing. Great video, very educational. Having my share of success and failure, the current state of technology seems very primitive. Advocates like you push the craft forward to where it needs to be. Thanks for your focus.
Glad you covered this. Lots of failures from this setting and few people understand why it matters. Thanks!
My printer hasnt been delivered yet... and I already have more confidence that I wont screw it up too bad after just two videos.... Subbed...
Good lord. The stuff you are discovering is so valuable, and I can't believe hasn't been taken into consideration by the manufacturers when they advise on setting up new printers! Great stuff.
I have been looking for the answer to my weird lines around the larger cross sections for almost a week and finally found this video. Thank you so much for the information. I’m starting on the Elegoo Saturn 2 and this clears up so much stuff.
You're the man... you shed lights on my failure puzzles... it really makes sense
Thanks so much! I’m a noob to 3D printing trying to learn with Lychee. Thanks to this clear explanation I finally understand what happens if you change the lifting settings!
Great video, however I believe lift height is only part of the equation. I worked several years in automotive and aerospace industries completing Peel Adhesion and Peel Strength testing against various ASTM standards. As the lift and film separation begins there would be an increasing amount of force on the film as the resin in the vat slips back onto the seperated film (Mass to Force Ratio). Having a larger amount of resin in the vat would provide an increased amount of force onto the film and would reduce the amount of upward flex of the film. Another factor would be the placement of the model on the bed, as there would be less flex near the edges of the buildplate/vat. Model placement was a factor in previous Gen printers, but should be reduced with the newer light sources.
Yep, also the lift speed as I mentioned, the FEP tension, heat from printning (which makes the FEP a bit more flexible), resin viscosity, the factors and the math involved are not easy when you compile all of it, that's why I don't go too far into the weeds :)
Also the fact that the FEP is under tension. So while it can be deformed it doesn't want to be deformed and is trying to pull away from the print. Honestly I think it's important stuff to know but it also seems people try to fix failure issues with increased bottom layers and exposure times. Which could stick more to the FEP and require a higher lift to get enough tension force to peel it away. But it's kind of a fix for another issue altogether.
However with larger printers and larger FEP it's going to flex more with less tension due to increased size. So if with proper exposure times 5mm is plenty for a small printer like my Voxelab Proxima 6" a 8" printer is probably better served by 6 - 7mm and I would guess a 10" might be better with 8 - 10mm lift height. Just because under equal tension the larger sized FEP is going to flex more.
@@3dprintingpro212 Speaking of lift speed, what do you recommend?
Very helpful video; criminally underrated channel.
Thank you, excellent video. I now understand why I'm having intermittent partial failures.
Mate this advice is golden. This and the lift speed advice is going to be essential for bigger printers, especially the monsters like the Phenom L. Yeah they may slow down the process, but its better than failed prints.
Hammer on bro
Great vid, theres tons of testing that can be done on this subject! I generally listen to the peel on the first few layers, if it pops half way through the initial layers, then im pretty confident it will survive the rest
Been wondering about this for a while. Rolling with 7mm on my saturns. Thanks for he demo and explanation. I always wondered about layer lines. Your explanation makes a ton of sense.
I'd go 8! on a bigger thicker print bump it to 9 to be safe! :)
@@3dprintingpro212 And this is exactly what I needed to know for my saturn. First printer, so I really appreciate all your videos to get my dumb self educated.
So glad I was suggested this channel.
Greg you are as real as real gets. So incredibly refreshing on youtube these days. Don't get me wrong, there's a ton of fantastic youtubers with flashy production values etc that I know and love, but, there's something just awesome on a whole different level with your legitimacy. Keep up the great work!
I been rewatching your video cuz I had a failed print and part was stuck to the fep, I had my lift to 3/4,but now I changed it to 6/7 and re printing hopping it comes out perfect
You can think of it like your bed sheets. If the sheet (fep film) on the mattress (vat / printer) really tight you can still pinch the middle with your fingers (model) when you lift your fingers to a certain height the sheet will release from your fingers. If the sheet is on looser you can lift your fingers higher.
yep that's a good analogy
Got a Saturn about 2 weeks ago and you are spot on, 7mm I think is the lowest you want to go, took about 4 prints to dial it in to where there were no lines, no tiny tear holes, the lift speed had to go way down. Went all the way down to 30mm lift speed and with 7mm or 8mm lift height, getting really clean big prints
Thank you for this video! It explained a lot of the undesirable and failed results I was getting. I have gotten much more consistent and better prints after changing the lift height.
I just got a medium-format printer for my first resin printer and have been wondering why some prints are doing this. I focused on adding more cure time to make my supports stronger, but this clarified what is actually happening and what to test with.
Damn you just solved my issue with vehicle prints
Man, I think this is exactly what I needed to hear. I have models that print great individually, but when I loaded up my build plate, all failed. Hmmmm 🤔. Lift height/speed?
You, by far, have the best instructional videos for 3D technology
Thanks so much for doing these videos they are an excellent resource!
Thanks, I was using 3mm before, changed it to 7mm now. I did a similar test on my own vat and FEP and noticed that I had to use quite a bit of force to push it down at 6mm, so I put it to 7mm to be safe.
Surface area also plays a role in the layer hight. Large the print the lesser the deformation. Good info btw
Great video. It’s knowing the small details like this that all add up to a satisfying printing experience.
Feeling sorry for the 18 people (at the time I am writing this) who gave a thumbs down. Guess they know it all. 🤓
Great video, but I feel it missed out a few other aspects. Tension not only limits the extent to which the FEP can deform, but also creates force when the FEP has been deformed. This means that whilst the FEP could deform to, say, 5mm, once it has deformed there is a force acting on it trying to pull it back down again (which is mainly what helps it peel off). So long as there is enough time this force will release the FEP even if our build plate only raises to that 5mm extent. This brings in lifting - the slower your lifting time the longer the tension force has to act upon the FEP and pull it back down (and the less force is applied at any one particular point in time, which can help limit stress on the print).
The other aspect is build size. You mention bigger, heavier models will have more suction force on the FEP and greater capacity to deform it (which completely makes sense), however shape also plays a part. If you had say one 10mm diameter in the middle, or even near the side, of the FEP it would likely (I've not tested to be fair) pull the FEP up higher than a larger area, or a few smaller areas, spread out across the build plate, because that deformation is spread across more of the sheet.
A failed print followed by a redo always takes more time than adding more lift height and reducing lift speed
Excellent video
Thanks for the tip! Trying this out today and it makes total sense. 🙏🏻
GREAT VIDEO! Thanks so much. I really like you and your videos. I'm a NOOB and you've helped me a lot.
People with budget to midrange machines are likely to experience more of a problem with this!
The machines are less rigid. (smaller cheaper rails & screw, less and thinner metal overall). I've been watching some of the Phrozen Sonic Mini 4k videos, you can easily see the lifting plate flexing (the piece the build plate attaches to).
*Changing the lifting speed should significantly reduce the wear of both the FEP & the nut on the lead/ball screw, even possibly the life of the screen (getting less harsh slapping).
As a mechanical engineer and also a mechanical tech, I look at it like this:
being forced to spin fast + against a high load + load applied with a racking torque
= recipe for wear and eventual slop
That 5-6mm test is very good. I think you are likely spot on for why people get random lines in some of their prints.
I think you could demonstrate the lifting speed effect with masking tape and printer paper. pull too fast, and the paper crinkles instead of separating. Pull slowly, even stop, and you see the tape continue to peel off slowly until it reaches the limit of how much it will peel...for how far you pulled it.
A slower and farther lift will be less harsh on the paper and more consistent/reliable.
I have a larger resin printer, I have had issues with larger prints creating wrinkles in my FEP. Using Sirayatec Strong resin. I had issues with prints having hollow spots and was told by someone on FB to slow my lift speeds and possibly use longer cure times, I believe we even found I needed cool down time between layers my printer didn't have any cool down time in it's default settings. But still have issues with the FEP film.
I don't understand how you can make the FEP too tight or too lose. I'm not trying to be mean to anyone or anything but it would be extremely difficult to stretch it before you install it. Same thing with it being too lose. Wouldn't it have big creases in it?
This is still great. Can you update it with graphics explaining 2 stage & the math.
thank you for great great explantation for FEP tension how to make the print fail, that should be the big one reason for me. btw , had someone told you look like Vin Diesel?
the last thing i printed had some lines in it and I wondered why... now I know lol... Ive got the Anycubic Mono X so it's gotta be having some separation issues... Im going to increase that distance and see how well it does from here on out.
Well crap, the default setting for my printer profile was 2mm... changed it real quick after seeing this. Thank you!
Now this makes so much more sense.
Very instructive as always. Thank you. :)
I never had any problems with a lift height of 5mm with a lift speed of 40mm/minutes, but I'm gonna increase that to 6mm to be on the safe side.
I look at this way, increasing it can't hurt (though it does add a little time) but it could possibly help you.. :)
on the mono x the manufactor recommends 8 mm lift distance
I've been getting away with 5mm. I only use 8mm when working with flexible resins.
Is it really not possible to completely eliminate suction and peal forces from resin printers? With as long as resin printers have been a thing, I would've thought something like this would've been eliminated by now... There HAS to be some kind of coating that could be applied to the fep to completely eliminate cured resin from sticking at all. And suction shouldn't ever be an issue with proper hole placement.
Good video! My KL9 is recommended for 12mm from the manual.
I did my first pint on it last night, a test file from the included USB drive, and still got a line but had some support failures and also paused to add more resin.
Thank you, sir!
Super super helpful information there
As I've not run a resin printer myself (yet!) this is all theoretical in my head, but from my point of view, the FEP from a design angle is the weak point of resin printing. I understand its purpose, but is there no other way unless one was able to find a rigid material that's as transparent as FEP for light transmission but has amazing non stick properties that a print would not stick to it, would that not cure the issue and speed up printing?
I'm also something of an engineer that specialized in problem solving. =) It is my most favorite thing to do and many of my best inventions have come about from precisely that facet.
I'm not an expert, but isn't the bending of the FEP sheet needed in order to release the print? If it were 100% rigid there would be a vacuum between the print and the sheet and I imagine you couldn't get it off without huge force.
you can hear when you tapped the FEP that it is not fully tensioned.
as you said, these vats are used, and you obviously havent re-tensioned the fep before conducting these "tests" (testing without controls really isnt a decent test).
if ppl maintain correct tension, so that the FEP rings like a bell / bongs like a drum, plucks like a string, when tapped, they wont have issues with 5mm.
I find 10mm is good for a mono-x... but if my fep is old and/or my model has a large crossection I can still get lines or failed prints.. so then I increase it to 12 or even 14mm.
The lift height can be tuned by listening. Listen for the rise and slap and make sure you hear a little more rise afterwards. This guarantees you have some margin on height.
ESPECIALLY with the bigger printers! I just purchased a Saturn and what they did with the g-code (it appears)was go slow for the first half of the lift, (speeding up in 3 increments) and then full blast for the second half of lift. (Elegoo has a video on it, check it out) I stood there and watched the printer and the print WAS NOT releasing from the FEP before it started full blast and then you could hear the release happen (at full lift speed). It was no wonder I had failures! I want to see if I can edit the g-code myself and come up with a better configuration formula to both accommodate time and better printing. What I did for now was change the 7mm setting to 12mm.(for both bottom and regular lift) Maybe that's overkill for now but what you can do is stand next to the printer and listen closely (you can usually hear the final peel moment) and notice at what stage of the lift the peel happens. Even at 12mm it still comes close to releasing at full blast mode at certain points in the print. (peeling moment varies throughout the stages of printing). I will also tighten up the FEP when I change it next time, because with the huge vat size the stretch (especially in the middle is enormous when printing small items). Last tip, level without paper or maybe use super thin tissue paper. Let's face it, the build tables are not dead flat and neither is the screen. The closer you get to the glass or the screen, the more likely you prints will stick will to the table, that's just a fact. This alone it one of the best things you can do to ensure the part stays stuck to the plate from the start of the print. : ) Thanks for the videos!
Also I am going to head to the machine shop and put an indicator on the bottom of the build table to see how close they are getting to flat. I can see that with both the mars and the Saturn that there is usually one or two corners that you can still slide a sheet of paper under (at home position) and that would be the part of the build to avoid if possible. I may just shave a few thousands off the bottom and re-indicate to make sure it's flat within one or two thousandths or an inch. (ideal)
Thanks for the video! Very interesting. Another question I had, don't think you made a video on it, was, how to make models sharper? Like higher resolution?
Very good! Thank you subbed
For my case (Chitubox + Photon-fauxton) settings on Chitubox doesnt translate to the real print settings.
If you go into settings when you start a print, you will notice the speeds and lifting amount are not the ones in the sliced settings. Users may need to manually edit those settings on the print menu of the machine once prints is underway!
i figured this out week 1... how do you test this? easy...listen to the fep. it always makes a noise when it releases. just add height if it doesnt. I normally use between 2-3mm. 3mm bottom, 2.5-2.8 normal. depends on exposure time because higher exposures make it stick more and lower numbers require less lift.
I'm a self taught engineer.
I wonder why film is used, instead of thin, coated glass?
Just saw your video on light off time, and this. Maybe adding a couple of mm height and slowing elevation speed might be enough to the light off 2secs cool feature you recomend
the current settings allow Bottom lift distance and lifting distance. Which lifting are you talking about? And what is the difference between the 2?
Some good info, but I don't see the correlation of your FEP film push test over the disc and the release point of resin when being pulled off by the plate. That test makes no sense to me.
Shows that the FEP can deform to 5mm with almost no pressure, so a print pulling off the FEP can easily deform it that distance as well... :D
Great information. Thank you.
I'm for "bebe"s as the next guy, but close-ups at the vats and fep would be welcome in the first place. We can and do appreciate the content, more zooms at the things you talk about would be great (and yes, I saw close-ups later, I mean they should be main focus of the video in the first place)
Thanks for video. After watching it seems like you would be better off printing as close to a vat edge as you can so you go from the "suction" force component to the "peel" force component quicker.
I have been having problem printing the Pre-Supported Artisans Guild Miniatures because I need to scale them down to 80-90% to fit the 28mm scale. Do you have any tips or tricks for this so I do not need to redo the supports for every model?
@Greg Kourakos Thanks had not seen it and I learned something
@Greg Kourakos where
hmm, that makes me think, that placing bigger models near the edge would be a good idea since FEP deformes a lot less there, and it may compencate for the bigger suction forces.
Super imformative.
Great content as always! What are your thoughts on nFEP? I've seen people taking about how they get fewer fails compared to standard FEP.
From what i have read an discovered nfep film is just epax brand name for Teflon PFA film.
If you find generic bulk PFA film.its even cheaper than fep films.
I use my ears to ascertain the height. By that I mean that I listen for the sound of the print releasing. The initial layers need more too. In fact, making sure that the initial lift needs to be a bit more too. I use my ears as a guide :)
Here I've been using 3mm lifting height on my factory tensioned Photon S
thanks for the information!!! Very educational... What lift speed would you recommend?
Hello,
Question: What is the difference between Z Lift speed and Z Retract speed? Would someone please explain. Thank you.
I got a Mono X last week. Could not get test print to work. 8 tries later I discovered the printer itself was not level. I didn't check that as I thought printing bed was the only thing where leveling was important was the build plate. The machine was a half bubble off level in 2 directions. I got 2 builds that worked since then. Playing around with settings now to dial it in.
I have a mono x too, and from what I can tell, the lift speed is the rate at which the build plate moves up (away from the fep), whereas the retract speed is the rate at which the build plate moves down (towards the fep).
Thank you Jonathan. Anycubic support told me to look in the manual. So I did and it has recommended settings, but no explanation what does what.
I experimented and came up with same understandings as you.
Oh she’s smarter than me, and prettier than both of us lol.
(I joke, and with the utmost respect!)
wow so informative thank you so much
i get perfect prints at 40/mm/min But it was so slow a print took me 26 hrs, and it was so annoying. So i pumped it up to standard 65 mm/min and everyting went to shit so i went back to 40 xD
I have a question... Is the deformation of the fep after pressing the end with the 6mm ball relevant when making an impression?
Thanks a lot for all the info and the help to the 3d beginners!
Would be interesting if there was a stepper motor than you could record the dynamic torque and plot that against time to get a force curve. From this you could determine where the fep released (drop in force to constant level) and feed this back into the software to have a dynamic lift height based on layer area and model positioning.
Probably would cost more than these budget printers bud would be an interesting project.
Could you not just read the current off the stepper motor to see when the film releases? Might need a very sensitive tester. Just a thought.
I'm super new to this...6 weeks with a Photon Mono x 6k and have had 2 prints not fail, and they still look like ass.
My FEP is as tight as a drum from the factory. Think that's a reason?
Excellent video, thank you for going into this!
I've been using a PTFE lubricant on my fep when cleaning out the vat. Any idea how much this helps separate the fep from the build plate during lifting?
That might actually end acting more as a cleaning of the FEP than an actual lubrication imo :) but either way it can help a little...
Struggling hard, just got my anycubic photon, first prints went very well and even one my custom stl for a 28 mm figure got through fine. Then nothing is printing anymore.
Searched why my first layers stick to build plate but then it starts sticking to the FEP once it gets to supports. No damage to the plastic film. I use your setting for the elegoo gray . Build plate is perfectly leveled. Bit discouraged, trying now after tightening the film and warming up the resin. Temperature in basement is quite low, hope it's one or the other. If not I'll try raising lifting height from 5 to 6 mm see if it makes a difference, will try to let you know.
I'm a moron, this actually forced me to look at my settings again, and my lifting distance was set at 0.5 instead of 5. No wonder I had the impression the build plate did not move. I have no clue how this happened between 2 different stl slicings. Anyways, thanks, this helped me in an unplanned way :D
i thimk you may be wrong about bigger models needing highr lift. the smaller model pulling in the center will allow more fep flex because the flex goes to a smaller point. try your flex test with a larger diameter (puck) shaped model and you'll see what i mean. it would also be good advive to place prints closer to the edge when printing because theres lesss flex there.
keep up the great videos btw
The bigger models create more peel forces. Also the edges often don't have as good light depending on your printer :)
Great video as always! I am new to resin printing and your videos help a ton!!
This video though left me wondering, if the FEPs at the end, were seriously damaged and need replacement, or if it would be considered OK to keep using them in that state
Could someone please clarify this?
Many thanks in advance
If it's noticeably damaged change it! :)
Woah my z lift distance is 3mm for my photon zero. So I might be doing it wrong huh ? This might explain the mysterious dents I have on the right side of my fep. Thanks man.
This video seems like countless fails avoided.
Would it be a good idea to print closer to the edge rather than center to reduce the amount of lift needed? I think you run into other problems though with exposure if you do?
so I'm using lychee and I'm getting duel lift speed and distance along with retraction speed. most videos I've watched have only one and was wondering how would I mess with those settings? I have the Photon M3.
Thanks as always Greg - another thing with adding the lift height is we'd give the screen time to cool a bit (like a lightoff time) - which may even make the screen last longer.
So after watching your FEP tuning video...I am wondering if it is best to tune it to the top range or lower range when considering that you might have prints sticking to the FEP?
Interesting I have my Saturn set to 7mm and some of my full bed prints I get lines so I will have to test this and speed
I suggest investing in a tabletop or boom mic. Don't put the lavalier on your shoulder.
Thank you again for an informative (and timely) video. I have an LC Magna and have been having nothing but problems, so I just tried your advice. Interestingly, the model I was printing with the previous settings, took 2 days. I then changed the 'Z Lift Distance' to 6 mm (from 3 mm) and the 'Z Lift Speed' to 150 mm/ min (from 200 mm/ min). Strangely, the expected print time has dropped to 1 day, when I would have thought it would, at least, double. Nothing else was changed. Any ideas why? Thank you
No clue sorry, it is totally counter-intuitive and seemingly quite wrong. Not sure which print it was calculating wrong...
can anyone explain what for is transition lines in between bottom and normal layers
hi im late to this party. what is a good way to test this on my phrozon mighty 8k... as i love the quality i get, but at 8mm lift height its sometimes an 8 hour print...
I love you man
Thanks for another really good explanation. Does anybody know why all the lift height options are not there (in chitubox) on the Elegoo Mars profile? They are there on the default printer profile.
I've had the same problem so I've just copied all the settings across from the Mars profile to the default..which **should** be all good to go
@@strangelysaucy weird, but I guess that's an acceptable workaround.
i just started printinf 28mm minis and the detail
is lacking. im using an anycubi photon and the grey anycubi resin. ive seen people getting better results with the same set up. any idea what the resolution settings should he for 28mm?
2mm lift height for 0.04mm layer height and worked great. So I don't see how lift important and disagree with your logic because your looking at it from just one aspect of physics which is the elastic effect and doesn't take in account the more important aspects such as material friction.
Thanks.
What mini is that at the end? Where is it from? :o
MY upcoming KS which is in the video description :)