@@grimreapers At the very least, they might have wasted 7 missiles on them instead of 70. Even outright ignoring them would be less risky than wasting 60+ missiles.
@@grimreapers Something else thats not being modelled is that to seriously hurt the battleships you need AP bombs, and they have a minimum drop altitude to both penetrate and arm. Simba's toss technique would be completely ineffective IRL as the bomb wouldn't penetrate, and probably wouldn't arm either. Dive bombing wasn't just about accuracy for AP bombs, they needed a fair bit of speed to function vs armoured targets as well. if they want to come in low like that they need to be bringing torpedoes.
@@grimreaperswhy not put storyline why put modern tech ww2 pearl habor attack like axis end up with alien tech someone comes to future asking for help before axis attack pearl habor giving Allies better fighting chance . Or something like that . That why you have to keep trying to new attempts and ways to defend harbor . Then you keep story going .
DCS really needs to update their game models to include ships using their 5 inch guns in anti-air mode. The Burke's used missiles, Bushmasters, and Phalanx systems, but the 5 inch gun mount never fired. Kudos' for Cap and the Reapers team for making a fun and interesting video, even if it was hampered by "a thing happened" beyond their control.
They're mod assets. It's hard to get them working 100%, especially since they're obviously designed for modern scenarios where the 5 inch isn't very important.
I mean they should rebuild ship and ground fire/AI from ground up. Proper damage modeling, not hit point based. Realistic accuracy, not the super computer perfect calculation accuracy.
@CheapSushi y dad was on a Casablanca class escort carrier in WW2 and the ship hero was the gunner on their five inch gun who hit a kamikaze that was headed right for the ship. Hitting that plane with a five inch contact fused shell at close range was a miracle.
Yea, they wouldn't suicidally plunge into that meat grinder since this was so early in the war. They would have been overwhelmed by the psychological effects and surprise and withdrawn, even if the destroyers didn't target the carriers with Harpoons or Tomahawks.
@@TheMonkey747 and the missiles would be moving too fast for them to see, maybe someone would notice the weird clouds over the 'battle' field. They'd take off, blow up for no reason and then some snarky radio operator on the modern ships would get on the radio and ask if they were done yet.
There's a lot of issues with doing this hah. For example, if you were to add a modern sub, whether using nuclear arms or not, the fact that Japan, Germany, the US, or any other country would likely be so frightened by the strange, unknown weapon that can seemingly launch huge, devastating missiles from seemingly nowhere while also being basically immune to anything that their enemy navy could do to them. The US might be able to handle it better, but the morale issue it would cause is massive.
The first moment someone on the bridge of say,Akagi would know something was wrong is when the ship fucking explodes from the impact of a missile. The Arleigh Burke would see the strike group long before the strike group saw the Arleigh Burke if even at all, and maybe the CAP would see the missile streaming by at mach 3.
@@Cordman1221 well the Burke wouldn't... BUT its helicopters could climb to about 10,000 feet, provide Over the horizing targeting data, and the destroyers could fire on the carriers before they even reached launch range for their aircraft. BUT that would have been the US declaring war on japan and launching a surprise attack. then each would fire 6 of their 12 Tomahawk ASM's. 2 missiles per carrier.
@@jenniferstewarts4851I feel like the fleets of aircraft would be detected the minute they launched, the Americans would try to get dialogue long enough to confirm intentions and then fire ASMs defensively. They would hit before the first waves could even arrive
@@merrick3627 no... remember the earths curve. And staging altitude was under 8000 feet... with an island in between. Destroyers would need to have their Seahawks play aew.
Two Arleigh burkes would alert Pearl Harbour and while the US Fighters weren't great... they'd get in the air, and the rest of the surprise attack would meet US Navy ships that had their crews prepared.
if the US ships could engage at full range over open ocean it Would be so different since there is no hills or trees to hide behind. Additionally the hour warning would change everything.
I'd like to see this run again with the aircraft running off the carrier (including humans) as the main advantage of the Arleigh-Burkes (range) was pretty much nullified here, and I think the "wild weasel" operation of the 21st century humans that understand the defensive weapons also skews the result a lot when spawning in from short range with the cover of the islands.... Fun video anyway! Thanks guys 😀
The other problem is part of the attack was torpedo planes. Most of the damage to the fleet was done in the first wave. That is were the test should be focused on. Not the grand total of planes. If the Burkes can put up a defense on that first wave and shoot down most of the planes there would been more US planes to provide air cover. Plus if that first wave was destroyed that is basically a defeat for the Japanese.
Yeah, I always want to see the US fleet try to maneuver, like _West Virginia_ did IRL, or at least have contemporary fighter cover spawn after a certain amount of time. Something other than sitting there like a big reactive target.
Interesting. But the Burke's Aegis system would have provided Pearl with ample warning to get the 7th Air Force in the air and for the Pacific Fleet to get to battlestations well in advance of any incoming Japanese aircraft. The Burke's helos also detect and take out the Japanese mini sub that breached harbor defenses (the one that likely succeeded in torpedoing the West Virginia). There also lot more flak that the fleet sends up. The destoyers need not shoot down the entire first wave of attacking planes on their own. And with each destroyer having one or two Sikorsky SH-60 Seahawks, there wouldn't be much of a problem detecting the Japanese fleet that would be well within its range. The helos also have up to two Mk-54 air-launched torpedoes each. If they get within range of the IJN fleet, there's going to be a couple carriers sunk or at least put out of action. And if the Burke's fire their Tomahawks, it's going to be a very short war.
The Arleigh Burke #112 is the USS Michael Murphy. My son in law is currently stationed on that ship in Pear harbor. I find these videos very interesting and entertaining.
Thank you for your service. The USS MM received damage in a training exercise and has been in drydock for over a year. Only recently has she been making small runs to shake out the bugs. I believe they have a 9 month deployment scheduled for 2024 and will rejoin their strike group. Currently they are an on-call ship but it seems like they don't dare go too far just yet.
@@PaulM-kc2tk Understandable, I mean, CVN-73, George Washington, and her strike group, are finishing up their scheduled refits, and should deploy in 2024 to relieve CSG-5 I believe. Ronald Reagan, they've been forward deployed to Japan for about 10 years now, which is the limit by federal law. So maybe DDG-112 would deploy with Destroyer Squadron 15 this time? I don't know, it would be the Navy's decision. Godspeed, I hope your son stays safe on his deployment in the future, and any other endeavors.
I'm going to be honest, i know this series isn't all about the science but most of the potential science value from this episode is eroded by the human players ability to wild weasel half the missiles away. And I think that the argument that the Japanese would have worked it out eventually is mitigated by the fact that the DDGs would have humans aboard as well and would avoid targetting the obvious decoys. However, having said this, the episode was incredibly fun and entertaining as usual, you guys never fail to entertain. Even if there's little science to be had it was worth it for the boom boom :)
I agree, as brilliant as people are when in desperate situations I doubt that the Japanese would figure out how to weasel out missiles even if it was actually an effective tactic given the sophisticated software on the Arleigh Burkes and the adaptive tactics used by the fire control officers and the bridge.
... on second thought I might be wrong on that. Maverick is not that far from the truth despite the fictional characterization. Nevertheless, despite the cleverness of humans, they might be restrained by their direct superiors and the indoctrination of their training.
@Grim Reapers - Cap this is one of my favorite types of videos that you have done. I would recommend moving the DDG’s to different locations. 1 DDG farther out into the center of the main harbor and 1 DDG outside of the harbor completely. The terrain is definitely in favor of the enemy so moving your defensive assets out a little farther will give a little bit better line of sight.
The strategic situation after those losses would be devastating for the IJN; losing half the (best available) pilots in the first attack of the war would have completely changed the early engagements and probably the expansion goals of the high command.
The AB's would still have significantly changed the war- the amount of planes and pilots lost would have significantly impacted Japans ability to fight in the pacific
Lots of fun! Maybe don't stack the deck and run it again. Separate the destroyers so they don't duplicate so much and make it harder for Bird to trick them. Weasels? Really? Don't get me wrong, I loved it but you tied the Burke's hands. I love it that you post something every day. Addicted to you guys.
The AI defense should have included the many US aircraft that took off from airfields. The modern destroyers would probably have been more effective if there had been one at each end of the harbor. If a human or two had been on the defender side, that would have been cool.
If 184 SAMs killed 184 Japanese aircraft (and not counting CIWS or Bushmaster kills) that's over 50% of the 353 planes launched by the Japanese on December 7th, 1941. Historically, those pilots lost were the best the Japanese had. That would have meant the Japanese replacing all their air groups for Midway six (6) months later with inexperienced pilots. The Japanese would have been defeated at sea by 1943 instead of 1944 at the Marianas "Turkey shoot". Great video!
I wanna see a recreation of the scenario from The Final Countdown. I always felt cheated that we didn’t get to see an entire fleet defense airwing go head to head against the Imperial Navy.
How about something different like a Japanese Kongo Class destroyer experiencing the same and participating in the Pearl Harbor attack with the Japanese fleet?
The movie, "The Final Countdown" had the newly deployed USS NIMITZ, close to stoping it....until fate, stopped the ship and crew, from singlehandedly wiping out the Japanese taskforce. The F14 vs. Zeros alone, is worth the watch.
100/130 oct, process developed by French engineer Houdry who emigrated to the USA in '31, that and a goodly dose of TEL. I wonder if @cuz129 is part of what was the Associated Ethyl Company, now Associated Octel Co, in earlier days AECo had the benefit of Freddie Banks** who brewed some really potent stuff for the Schneider S.6 and we all know the history of that. ** Air Commodore Francis Rodwell "Rod" Banks CB, OBE, Hon. CGIA., Hon. FRAeS, Hon. FAIAA., FlMechE., Flnst Pet., FRSA, CEng., MSAE
@Bushy556 It was Lion Oil, in Arkansas, later part of Monsanto. We made high octane av gas with sulfuric acid alkylation of isobutane and C4 olefins to produce iso octane which is exactly 100 octane before tetraethyl lead is added to kick it up into plus 100 octane blends. Of course that was way before my time, though my dad did serve on an aircraft carrier in WW2 in the Pacific theater.
I'd say this is a fun "What if" scenario, though that the biggest issues with this analysis are... 1. Fear factor: The Japanese would be flying over 50 miles offshore (barely able to see Oahu) when their buddies next to them suddenly exploded into fireballs. They didn't have radar, they wouldn't know what was happening, just that all of a sudden dozens and dozens of airplanes were vaporized in seconds. The shock would be a TREMENDOUS moral destroyer as they were wholly going on surprise in the actual raid and now have to try and imagine what the Americans have in store for them. 2. Radar. Biggest issue here. The two destroyers would have located the vast squadrons of fighters and given their location to Pearl Harbor, Hickham, and the other bases. All the American planes would have been scrambled to meet this threat, the sailors would not have been caught sleeping, and ships would be underway. So it wouldn't have been hundreds of Japanese planes vs two destroyers. It would have been hundreds of Japanese planes, vs 100's of American planes and the entire US fleet ready to meet them. 3. Accuracy: You nailed this in your analysis that the game wasn't good enough to get the missile hit rate where it would be. Pilots in the 40's did not have to contend with missiles, just machine gun fire or land based fire. Each missile would be 1 plane destroyed. Having modern day people piloting 1940's planes to try and avoid radar would not have happened back then. It would have been the Marianas Turkey Shoot a few years early. But that is my in depth analysis on this. Just one destroyer would have been enough to "wake up" the American fleet and airpower to be mobilized to meet the bombing raid. With most Japanese aircraft ladened with bombs and torpedo's and not enough fighters, the Japanese force would have been obliterated, and the Arleigh Burke would have pinpointed the location of the Japanese fleet before they even knew their planes had been destroyed.
Avgas, highly flammable and explosive. The Zero was built for speed, range and manueverabilty. Protecion was not considered. The USA supplied high octane avgas to the British and the Soviets. The Japanese and Germans could not match that.
“Could Pearl be defended by two modern destroyers, but not actually because one of us is going to fly around, not attack and draw fire and then hide because they know how the missiles work” FTFY *The Japanese, approaching Pearl and being gutted in their formations, would not have worked it out that quickly as to develop Weasel like tactics within an hour of being exposed to missiles.
I’d like to point out that radar was a new concept, land based was new, sea based was very new, airborne was extremely new possibly even a couple months away from development, I highly doubt the Japanese would have determined that they were being blown out of the sky by object traveling many times the speed of sound guided by wavelengths of light, sure they’d have determined the destroyers as a threat early on but they didn’t even start putting radar on their ships until later in to the war so distraction tactics would in my opinion, never have been considered
For some reason, when you said you could make a pnecil disappear, my mind skipped over the Batman reference and immediately went to Damp's capability to make a banana disappear. - President, Damp Sok Valued Viewer Fan Club
This is George. WWII Fuel: An overly simplified description. 1) The first two years of WWII both British and German aircraft use 80/87 octane fuel. It used 0.5 grams of lead per gallon. Addition lead was not added as it fouled plugs and made valves stick. It had a red dye. 2) A breakthrough in fuel technology from a Chemist in the American oil company Sun Oil, The Cracking Tower. It allowed for better fuel and allowed for more lead with fouling nor valve sticking. 3) The majority of Allied fuels were changed to 100/130 with 3 grams of lead per gallon with a green dye. 4) Some allied aircraft were using 130/145 with between 4 and 6 grams of lead per gallon and used a purple dye. 5) Modern piston aviation fuel (100 Low Lead or 100LL) has 2 grams lead per gallon. 6) The most lead ever used for motor car fuel (MOGAS) was 0.5 grams lead per gallon; 4 times what is STILL used in aviation fuel. 7) JET-A is similar to Diesel #2 but Jet A has considerably more sulfur. 8) JP-8 is JET-A with an added corrosion inhibitor. 9) Diesel #2 has added lubrications considered unnecessary for turbine engines. 10) While JET-A can physically run in a piston diesel engine, it will not pass an emission test while doing so as there is too much sulfur. Again Overly simplified.
Have the Arleigh Burkes circle the Island. They would not be in port if tasked with defense They would look for subs too. That would shut down the wild weasel.
The Japanese would NOT know to line of sight the missiles. None of the pilots who saw the missiles would likely survive the experience, and even if they did, they wouldn't understand how that rocket was doing those maneuvers. The prior warning from modern radar would also give the period native ships time to close watertight bulkheads and stand by anti-air weapons and fire crews even if they couldn't get boilers lit. The Japanese weren't suicidally desperate at this point in the war. You said that they would be dodging and things because they are humans who see these "magic SAMs" but they would likely have broken and called off the attack when the first 50 planes launched had enough time to scream into their radios and die. They wouldn't just keep sending planes when they didn't understand what is happening after taking those losses from weapons they don't understand. They wouldn't know the missiles were limited.
The German and Japanese aircraft ran on low-octane gasoline (some of it was 70 octane) and at the end of the war, Japan was digging up tree stumps to distill wood alcohol (methanol) for aviation fuel.
Cool Video guy's! Thanks Again..... Ya CWIS didn't have enough ammo either. What about a Ready Carrier Strike group 50-75 miles offshore on the opposite side of the Island kinda like we did in the Midway Island fight. But use a Modern Us Carrier Strike Group! That seems to me like a good battle. 1- US Modern Carrier Strike Group against the Japanese Invasion Fleet of Pearl Harbor. Also I would throw an Airbase with either Warbirds, A-10's, or Apache's for some land based help that I think they will probably need. But no F-16's or 15's cause that would just tip the scale too much I think. So maybe 2-4 Squadrons of Ground based assets.
So 5" has rounds to take on planes, did you figure out why the weren’t firing? But yeah the outcome would have been better for the Americans if they had 2 Mondern DDGs. The advanced warning alone would have made a big difference. Also the SeaRam is on the aft mount. Not all have it but they are putting it on more ships.
To be fair, the 1940s pilots would not have had the knowledge of modern missile systems so there would have been a high % of hits on incoming aircraft which would would have caused the admiral to recall his remaining aircraft so the 2 modern destroyers would have stopped the attach early.
To be fair, the enemy would never press the attack. A real US crew would send the standard missiles out against the long range higher altitude attackers only and would watch what hits and what doesn't. Once random Japanese aircraft start randomly blowing up for "no reason", they would turn around. There is a limit to the number of aircraft that could just "explode" in mid-air for unknown reasons before they would stop what they are doing. Supersonic Standard Missiles would be "god-like" weapons to the Japanese and long before they were all destroyed, they would turn tail and run home. Further, the modern destroyers would not stay in Pearl Harbor, they would put to sea as their systems are more effective in the open water and underway.
The planes wouldn't have spawned in like that to save time, as you said they'd be getten taken out by the carriers still, PH's CAP would be up with modern radar giving them an hour's warning, the Japanese wouldn't know how to break lock (or even know they were locked on) plus would still be over water with no cover. 1/2 the Japanese attack would be wiped out bairly off the carriers before the missiles ran out (and while there might not have been enough missiles for the full force, it'd have 100% the 1st wave) and if that didn't abort the attack, PH's CAP (and likely American carrier aircraft once they heard about Japanese radar contacts over the radio) would intercept the rest on approach. Some Japanese might get thru but it wouldn't be a crippling attack and an abort after the 1st wave mysteriously disappeared in a blaze of glory would have been the likely Japanese response.
Hi Cap & GR Crew, In the spirit of modern fighters vs WW2/Early Gold War missions: Could DPRK MiG-29s have turned the tide at the Battle of Incheon in 1950? Or Could modern attack helicopters have saved Pearl Harbor with Hellfires/AAMs?
Have GR ever tried the reverse and using a small force of more modern aircraft to attack Pearl Harbour (defended by AIs)? I can't remember. Also wondering if GR ever tried defending with period aircraft? (How many would be required to successfull defend Pearl Harbour's fleet? If the US had advance warning and had their carriers ready and waiting as well as the land forces... But the poor server wouldn't stand a chance, unless things were scaled down.)
That would be interesting, if terrifying to see what would happen if a fleet of Carriers, defended by modern destroyers and corvettes with access to F-35 warplanes, elint F-18's and even F-14,s could do if they deployed hundreds of jets and planes.
cool scenario, i imagine the destroyer captains once they recovered from their time-travel event and established comms with the local USN, they'd strongly recommend making full steam for AshM SM-6 range of the IJN carrier group, same missile vs a carrier is way more efficient than vs a zero
As far as the tracers on CWIS, could you please add the tracers back in for dramatic effect? GR kept in missile smoke and even color coded them for the same reason. I miss my tracers! 🥺
My request, a modern Pearl Harbor attack. China and Russia have put all their active carriers into the South Pacific for massive war games, including the normal surface ships for each. Suddenly, they start a direct attack on Pearl with everything they have. How would the average ships stationed there hold up, maybe including one carrier group sent to shadow the war games fleets? P. S. Thanks for all the great fun you provide!
I like the idea of a modern version but I would stage it in Guam, where there are heightened tensions as China is poised to invade Taiwan outright with the Chinese Fleet blockading Taiwan for months and then Russia and Iranian naval assets all converge on the American, Japanese and Australian naval assets built up at Guam.
If a flotilla like that attacked Hawaii we would retaliate against the fleet with nuclear weapons. That would essentially be an end of the world scenario because we wouldn't tolerate that aggression against a state. Not to mention, our carriers would be sitting right there looking at them. They couldn't move those assets into place without us doing the same, and our carriers aren't a floating piece of shit like the Russian's "carrier"
@@-Bill.We wouldn't retaliate with nuclear weapons because they wouldn't make it to pearl, The Pacific is divided into 10 areas of operation for attack submarines, that means they would need to get through the two seawolfs we have active, and four Virginia's, not to mention the Japanese and Philippine navies. Basically the task force would get intercepted about a dozen times before making it half way to pearl, this would be a slugging match in the Japanese straight between the US 7th fleet, the US 3rd fleet and the Japanese Maritime self-defense Force combined fleet against The PLAN North Sea Fleet, East Sea Fleet and South Sea fleet as well as what ever rust buckets of scrap iron the Russians could pull together
Maybe move the destroyer outside of the port like one on each side of the island maybe add one more so they actually have enough missiles to do the job
Now that I have seen a few minutes of live action, I have changed my mind! It will all come down to how accurate the CWIS is. Cause they are going to run out of Surface to Air Missiles....
And I think it be a little better with a American Air Fleet that could respond as well. I don't know if that is just too much running for the server, but I think it be cool.
Keep in mind the Japanese would have no idea on the ammo limits of the defenders or how the heck they lost so many planes before ever even seeing Pearl Harbor (Wild Weasel tactics would not have been used at all as they would have been clueless as to what they were facing). I feel after the decimation of the lead wave I really believe they may have called off the remainder of the attack to regroup and access the situation.
With the initial waves being basically stopped wouldn't the air forces on the island have been able to get airborne though? And what about the anti shit capabilities preventing future waves
In brief, I would like to see this simulation re-done with three Arleigh Burke class destroyers without human players or advanced A.I. dodging and weaseling missiles. Although the human factor as Cap pointed out is real and a vital part of any battle, that human factor to adapt is crippled on the American side in this scenario as DCS gives limited real-time control of ships and tactics for naval assets. My guess is that three Arleigh Burkes might be able to hold off the bulk of the invasion if they are able to: maneuver effectively, store more s6 missiles, be tactically smarter by delaying the deployment of missiles and lastly, storing more sea whiz ammunition. With only one 10 inch cannon, it also might be smarter to install another sea whiz system on each of the destroyers if physically possible. My guess is that many if not most of the warbirds might still get through but their effective damage upon the stationed fleet would be much less. The active destroyers would also buy time for many of the personell on the ships to effectively fight and or abandon the ships when they become critically hit. In any case I suspect any of the Arleigh Class destroyers would prefer to sail with at least one Nimitz class carrier or even an Ohio class submarine. I enjoy the Grim Reapers videos and appreciate the hard and often frustrating amount of work, time, money and resources put into the videos. I also appreciate the camraderie and joy the members of Grim Reapers bring to these videos. ty cap and GR. Also, reading through a comment, the destroyers were in an effectively reactionary and defensive mode when they are capable of lethal offensive capabilities. By deploying advanced cruise missiles, tomahawks. torpedoes (if the ships can maneuver properly and timely) and ship killing missiles like harpoons they might be able to cripple a few of the Japanese naval assets enough to critically slow the progress of the invasion. Another brilliant commentator also pointed out that Arleigh Burkes are capable of fielding helicopters. By deploying a few Apache class helicopters with harpoons and hellfire (torpedoes?), 20mm gatling guns and perhaps a sikorsky with decent radar and intel gathering capabilities the entire Japanese fleet could be stopped, half sunk and in dissarray. At that time the limited radar capabilities would be too weak to prevent a stand-off attack from missile carrying helicopters let alone a stealth class helicopter.
Very well thought out and loong comment but I agree with the destroyer positioning. Just FYI, the sea whiz is actually an acronym for Close In Weapons System (CIWS). 100% get where you got sea whiz from though it does sound like that 😅
Way to much to read so here is a Butter cake recipe. 125g butter, chopped, at room temperature, 3/4 cup caster sugar, 1 tsp vanilla essence, 2 eggs, 2 cups self-raising flour, sifted, 2/3 cup milk, Vanilla icing, 2 cups icing sugar, 15g butter, 1-2 tbsp hot water, 1 tsp vanilla extract. Step 1 Preheat oven to 180C. Lightly grease a deep, 20cm round cake pan. Line base with baking paper. Step 2 Beat butter, sugar and vanilla together in a large bowl using an electric mixer, until pale and creamy. (see Notes) Step 3 Add eggs one at a time, beating well after each addition, scraping down sides of bowl. Lightly fold flour into creamed mixture alternately with milk, beginning and ending with flour. Spoon mixture into prepared pan, smoothing top. Step 4 Bake for 40-45 mins, or until cooked, when tested. Cool in pan for 5 mins, before turning onto a wire rack to cool completely. Step 5 To make the vanilla icing: Sift icing sugar into a bowl. Add butter, water and vanilla. Beat well with a wooden spoon until a smooth spreadable consistency. Spread over cooled cake. Decorate, if desired. Store in an airtight container.
What's the point? They've done 1 destroyer, 2, 3, a whole squad, modern jets, modern carrier strike group, modern missile deffences.. WHY WOULD YOUR SUGGESTION be so much better? Wtf?!?
It would give a chance to eliminate the factors that in my opinion do not give a clear and conclusive ( to the extent possible) answer to the question of whether a few modern destroyers could actually defeat or sufficiently blunt the pearl harbor attack. Pearl Harbour was a turning point in Naval Warfare; standoff attacks using reconnaissance and aircraft carriers became standard doctrine. Today, the full power of the mighty Arleigh Burkes and other multiple missile carrying ships has not been fully tested (Falklands war?) in a full scale conflict. I would merely like to see this tested to the limit just like it would be cool to see how far 6th gen jet aircraft coupled with drones and integrated battlespace tactics would change the battlespace in the skies. But that is not everyone's cup of tea or morning Joe. Which is cool.
Love the video. The big thing is the destroyers would have held off the Japanese long enough to allow the fighters from the airbases to get in the fight and not be destroyed on the ground.
would love to see a naval reenactment of the battle of Guadacanal where they fought at night. I want to see navy ships lighting eachother up with all those tracers at night and explosions. I know you said RUclips screws up the compression for night videos but it would be lovely to see if possible.
Can you imagine the difference even a single APS-124 search radar sitting at 10k feet would have made. the APS-124 search radar was made to work with the Tico's and Berks system, allowing them to target cruise missiles and sea skimming missiles. with a max range of 296.3 km against carrier sized targets... it would be able to spot anything about 160 kt miles out from pearl. They would have been able to detect the aircraft out to about 80 miles... for anything flying below the horizon.
If your a Grumman child , or a Tomcat lover, there's a movie about this where a carrier goes through a worm hole and ends up from the 1980s to the day of Pearl Harbour, and F-14s are buzzing Zeros , and its just a great movie...
A Pacific aircraft carrier enters a time warp and finds itself transported from 1980 to 1941 - just before the attack on Pearl Harbor. The captain is forced to decide whether to strike at the approaching Japanese fleet and change the entire course of the World War II.
idea for the future, when you have a more resilient server: pearl harbor with a couple of squadrons of modern helicopters defending it. questions: why have the Japanese fleet present? if you're not spawning the planes on the carrier, and the players aren't coming after them, they're just taking up space in the server's brain. what skill level did you have the Japanese pilots at? just asking because having them at anything other than the highest skill level would be a disservice to their side. irl, those were some of the best pilots around. can you add some Kates? I'd love to see those big, honkin' 800kg AP bombs at work.
Octane for warbirds in WWII era, was WELL over 100. I'd still like to see the results from a simulation of an infantry batallion armed with stinger missiles.
I think the defense was quite strong. The amount of aircraft that the Japanese lost compared to the damage they did in this attack would rate a failure. Most of the heaviest damage to the fleet was made in the first wave of the attack on pearl harbor. Those two ships would have fended off a good portion of that wave with both its missiles as well as guns. Also the Japanese would not have known to do those deception like attacks to draw missiles. In reality the whole scenario doesn't work with planes spawning so close and no torpedo planes. One how to account for Japanese surprise. Would the ships radar detecting the approach of the Japanese planes cause an alert. I would then just do the first wave of the attack since that would be the most important wave. It was the wave that did the most damage on the American fleet. Spawn the Japanese planes where they would be doing their attach runs with the correct number of planes. If the two ships defend this attack wave I would basically deem the Japanese attack to been a failure. For if many of the planes attack were taken out then would the US have a larger cap up along with more of an alert status for air defenses. This simulator seems limited to set up a detailed simulation so yes just do the first wave and either give the Japanese the element of surprise of some sort and not use what the human players keep doing. Human players should make an actual real approach on the ships for that is what the Japanese would have done. Other wise this is mostly just a fun scenario and no real conclusions can be made from it.
Exactly, the human players are effectively gaming the scenario with the weasel tactic in order to survive long enough to make, ironically kamikaze dives to get battle damage points.
In order to solve the more planes than middle problem, why don't you load all the vls launchers with ESSM middles quad packed with more middles; just a thought?
I love these anachronistic battles that you set up. It would probably have taken five or six Arleigh Burkes to properly defend against that attack; and it would need for some of them to be outside the harbour so as to reduce the effectiveness of the weaseling.
Well, he did say that they could've hit the planes as they were taking off from the carriers. So... Why not aim for the carriers before the planes start taking off? Seems logical to me, even though they're technically anti-aircraft weapons, since you're fighting 1920s or 1930s steel with much more modern warheads
The delays in the first wave being cut apart by the modern Destroyers allowed the WW2 ship crews time to man all their guns and with massive overlapping fields of fire it totally shredded the Japanese second waves.
Great video fun to watch good job. I really enjoyed watching this. This did make me think of a couple of things. The Japanese would not have wild weasel tactics as they would have 0 idea how they were being killed other than it was something very fast, very long range, explosive, and accurate. They would have no idea how they were being targeted much less how to confuse these modern systems. Taking this into account the 1st wave would have been decimated, most likely before even seeing Pearl Harbor. Seeing their buddies vaporized without an American in sight, most likely any subsequent waves would have been cancelled and the Japanese Navy would have cut their losses and beat feet out of there to regroup and determine what just happened and what new technology they were facing. At this point in WW2 there may have been fanatical but were not suicidal yet as the still controlled most of the Pacific. Another side note since it seems any Japanese that did get through were ignoring the airfields (and other installations) and the radar on the Burke's would have given ample notice there would have been a significant US WW2 era air presence to clean up any Zeros that foolishly continued the mission. Also, the advanced notice of incoming enemies would have allowed the WW2 era US ships to be set to combat conditions rather than being caught flat footed by the 1st wave. I know the engine has limits and this is by no means scientific, but the Burkes and the US forces were fighting with parameters that would be unrealistic even in this fantasy setting, basically a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest. I believe 2 Burkes would have turned the tide to the point of being a decisive US victory (with minimal US losses) that may have made the Japanese reconsider their entire Pacific campaign. Thinking further I would imagine after the US victory at Pearl Harbor the Burkes and the faster WW2 era ships may have even set out in pursuit of the IJN and once the gap was closed enough (the Japanese would be slowed to the speed of the slowest ships in their fleet). Then the harpoons would have had a field day. But that is well beyond the scope of this simulation.
That humans controlled Wild Weasels and AI controlled Arleigh Burked and Japanese strike aircraft seems to unrealistically tip the scales. If humans are running Wild Weasels, it would stand to reason that a human Anti-Air Warfare officer would have recognized that and not mindlessly dumped 70 missiles on them. Also, the lack of a human on the Japanese strike side failed to model the devastating effect on morale that would have occurred had 90 planes from the first wave had been shot down. Another channel modelled a battle between a modern US Marine company (100+ men) versus 10,000 Roman legionnaires. The Romans advanced on the Marines and 1,000 Romans were killed before they even go close. The remaining 9,000 Romans did not automatically advanced into the kilming zone. Hard to think hsving the first wave essentially wiped out would not gave tge Japanese pause. It's an interesting scenario, but the selective involvement of humsn intervention made the results not particularly illuminating. Furthermore, it seems like the 5" guns of the Arleigh Burkes didn't fire for some unknown reason.
Those ships are very good at stopping limited numbers of expensive fighters. The modern equivalent would be swarms of drones, die till they run out of ammo.
Ex- US Navy here. A few things that need to be different to make this more realistic on the Arleigh Burke Destroyers. and I know this would take time to remodel and such. For slow targets, the destroyers would have been using 5 inch, 25mm Bushmaster, and M2 .50cal machine guns. The 5-inch would have been HE and they have a Cannister round meant for anti swarms. The Bushmaster should have been obliterating the aircraft with their HE rounds. It really looked like the aircraft was just shrugging off the 25mm rounds when in reality it should have been blowing off their wings at 4 Miles out. Lastly is the .50cal gunners, who in reality would not have a good effective range or accuracy, they would be a kind of last line of defense. each .50 cal mount would have about 4-6 belts. CWIS could be reloaded in a combat scenario, it's not fast but possible. The Destroyers themselves would have went underway as soon as they detected the threat strategically positioning themselves to provide ample coverage and to remove terrain from being an issue for their missiles and radars. They would have set up no fire zones to reduce the chance of firing on the same target, and they would be using real time data between the two ships to select targets and to track such a large amount of targets. I'm sure there is more others have stated, but I'm sure you get the idea. Overall I like the videos and it's true, 2 destroyers trying to take down 300+ anything would be a massive challenge.
Could you model in the fact that if x2 modern ships were fending off an air attack from range that the Army Air Force would have time to scramble fighters? I feel like that would make even more of a significant advantage if they managed to get up a few squadrons in CAP.
Those CWIS R2D2s alone would protect the fleet. Cruise missiles are a cherry on top with striking the japanese navy fleet. Even then if they existed during pearl harbor it would have definitely protected a few ships minimum.
Good point, those two destroyers were effectively only using defensive tactics; reacting to the active threat when they are capable of deploying ship killing missiles like harpoons and heavy warhead delivery systems like tomahawks.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
If the enemy knows enough to wild weasel the missiles then the defenders would know not to have them in port blocked by terrain.
Fair comment.
@@grimreapers Maybe if you had a couple of type 45s guarding the mouth of the harbor, the Arleighs might have been able to take more down.
@@grimreapers At the very least, they might have wasted 7 missiles on them instead of 70. Even outright ignoring them would be less risky than wasting 60+ missiles.
@@grimreapers Something else thats not being modelled is that to seriously hurt the battleships you need AP bombs, and they have a minimum drop altitude to both penetrate and arm. Simba's toss technique would be completely ineffective IRL as the bomb wouldn't penetrate, and probably wouldn't arm either.
Dive bombing wasn't just about accuracy for AP bombs, they needed a fair bit of speed to function vs armoured targets as well.
if they want to come in low like that they need to be bringing torpedoes.
@@grimreaperswhy not put storyline why put modern tech ww2 pearl habor attack like axis end up with alien tech someone comes to future asking for help before axis attack pearl habor giving Allies better fighting chance . Or something like that . That why you have to keep trying to new attempts and ways to defend harbor . Then you keep story going .
DCS really needs to update their game models to include ships using their 5 inch guns in anti-air mode. The Burke's used missiles, Bushmasters, and Phalanx systems, but the 5 inch gun mount never fired. Kudos' for Cap and the Reapers team for making a fun and interesting video, even if it was hampered by "a thing happened" beyond their control.
A game that's 15 years old not even having Oahu alone is sad.
They're mod assets. It's hard to get them working 100%, especially since they're obviously designed for modern scenarios where the 5 inch isn't very important.
How accurate was having both modern destroyers anchored side by side? Seems like a wider placement might have mitigated the wild weasel effect.
I mean they should rebuild ship and ground fire/AI from ground up. Proper damage modeling, not hit point based. Realistic accuracy, not the super computer perfect calculation accuracy.
@CheapSushi y dad was on a Casablanca class escort carrier in WW2 and the ship hero was the gunner on their five inch gun who hit a kamikaze that was headed right for the ship. Hitting that plane with a five inch contact fused shell at close range was a miracle.
Can you imagine the terror for the Japanese pilots if they started taking losses 40-50 miles out from the targets?
Yea, they wouldn't suicidally plunge into that meat grinder since this was so early in the war. They would have been overwhelmed by the psychological effects and surprise and withdrawn, even if the destroyers didn't target the carriers with Harpoons or Tomahawks.
Agree they might have turned back with huge losses before even getting to pearl with "zero" understanding of what was happening. @@-Bill.
After losses beyond visual range? I'd expect them to bug out.
@@TheMonkey747 and the missiles would be moving too fast for them to see, maybe someone would notice the weird clouds over the 'battle' field. They'd take off, blow up for no reason and then some snarky radio operator on the modern ships would get on the radio and ask if they were done yet.
There's a lot of issues with doing this hah. For example, if you were to add a modern sub, whether using nuclear arms or not, the fact that Japan, Germany, the US, or any other country would likely be so frightened by the strange, unknown weapon that can seemingly launch huge, devastating missiles from seemingly nowhere while also being basically immune to anything that their enemy navy could do to them. The US might be able to handle it better, but the morale issue it would cause is massive.
2 Arleigh Burke that detect the the strike group and fire on the carriers would be a little more fair
The first moment someone on the bridge of say,Akagi would know something was wrong is when the ship fucking explodes from the impact of a missile. The Arleigh Burke would see the strike group long before the strike group saw the Arleigh Burke if even at all, and maybe the CAP would see the missile streaming by at mach 3.
@@Cordman1221 well the Burke wouldn't... BUT its helicopters could climb to about 10,000 feet, provide Over the horizing targeting data, and the destroyers could fire on the carriers before they even reached launch range for their aircraft.
BUT that would have been the US declaring war on japan and launching a surprise attack.
then each would fire 6 of their 12 Tomahawk ASM's. 2 missiles per carrier.
@@jenniferstewarts4851I feel like the fleets of aircraft would be detected the minute they launched, the Americans would try to get dialogue long enough to confirm intentions and then fire ASMs defensively. They would hit before the first waves could even arrive
@@merrick3627 no... remember the earths curve. And staging altitude was under 8000 feet... with an island in between. Destroyers would need to have their Seahawks play aew.
Two Arleigh burkes would alert Pearl Harbour and while the US Fighters weren't great... they'd get in the air, and the rest of the surprise attack would meet US Navy ships that had their crews prepared.
if the US ships could engage at full range over open ocean it Would be so different since there is no hills or trees to hide behind. Additionally the hour warning would change everything.
I'd like to see this run again with the aircraft running off the carrier (including humans) as the main advantage of the Arleigh-Burkes (range) was pretty much nullified here, and I think the "wild weasel" operation of the 21st century humans that understand the defensive weapons also skews the result a lot when spawning in from short range with the cover of the islands....
Fun video anyway! Thanks guys 😀
The other problem is part of the attack was torpedo planes. Most of the damage to the fleet was done in the first wave. That is were the test should be focused on. Not the grand total of planes. If the Burkes can put up a defense on that first wave and shoot down most of the planes there would been more US planes to provide air cover. Plus if that first wave was destroyed that is basically a defeat for the Japanese.
Plus the Burkes buy some time for the stationed fleet to defend themselves or evacuate the critically damaged vessels.
Yeah, I always want to see the US fleet try to maneuver, like _West Virginia_ did IRL, or at least have contemporary fighter cover spawn after a certain amount of time. Something other than sitting there like a big reactive target.
@@PhoenixT70 I believe you're thinking of Nevada. West Virginia did not get underway.
@@MWSin1 You’re probably right, but my point stands regardless. A ship moved.
Interesting. But the Burke's Aegis system would have provided Pearl with ample warning to get the 7th Air Force in the air and for the Pacific Fleet to get to battlestations well in advance of any incoming Japanese aircraft. The Burke's helos also detect and take out the Japanese mini sub that breached harbor defenses (the one that likely succeeded in torpedoing the West Virginia). There also lot more flak that the fleet sends up. The destoyers need not shoot down the entire first wave of attacking planes on their own. And with each destroyer having one or two Sikorsky SH-60 Seahawks, there wouldn't be much of a problem detecting the Japanese fleet that would be well within its range. The helos also have up to two Mk-54 air-launched torpedoes each. If they get within range of the IJN fleet, there's going to be a couple carriers sunk or at least put out of action. And if the Burke's fire their Tomahawks, it's going to be a very short war.
The Arleigh Burke #112 is the USS Michael Murphy. My son in law is currently stationed on that ship in Pear harbor. I find these videos very interesting and entertaining.
Attached to CSG-1, CVN-70, interesting
Thank you for your service. The USS MM received damage in a training exercise and has been in drydock for over a year. Only recently has she been making small runs to shake out the bugs. I believe they have a 9 month deployment scheduled for 2024 and will rejoin their strike group. Currently they are an on-call ship but it seems like they don't dare go too far just yet.
@@PaulM-kc2tk Understandable, I mean, CVN-73, George Washington, and her strike group, are finishing up their scheduled refits, and should deploy in 2024 to relieve CSG-5 I believe. Ronald Reagan, they've been forward deployed to Japan for about 10 years now, which is the limit by federal law. So maybe DDG-112 would deploy with Destroyer Squadron 15 this time? I don't know, it would be the Navy's decision. Godspeed, I hope your son stays safe on his deployment in the future, and any other endeavors.
I just talked to the Murph on a radio a month ago. I’m with 3rd Marines on Marine corps base Hawaii. Small world
Michael Murphy went to my high school on long island didn’t know he had a Burke named after him!
I'm going to be honest, i know this series isn't all about the science but most of the potential science value from this episode is eroded by the human players ability to wild weasel half the missiles away. And I think that the argument that the Japanese would have worked it out eventually is mitigated by the fact that the DDGs would have humans aboard as well and would avoid targetting the obvious decoys. However, having said this, the episode was incredibly fun and entertaining as usual, you guys never fail to entertain. Even if there's little science to be had it was worth it for the boom boom :)
I agree, as brilliant as people are when in desperate situations I doubt that the Japanese would figure out how to weasel out missiles even if it was actually an effective tactic given the sophisticated software on the Arleigh Burkes and the adaptive tactics used by the fire control officers and the bridge.
... on second thought I might be wrong on that. Maverick is not that far from the truth despite the fictional characterization. Nevertheless, despite the cleverness of humans, they might be restrained by their direct superiors and the indoctrination of their training.
@@MichaelSouthMichaelSouthI don’t see how the Japanese would know to wild weasel when there were no radar guided missiles back then
@Grim Reapers - Cap this is one of my favorite types of videos that you have done. I would recommend moving the DDG’s to different locations. 1 DDG farther out into the center of the main harbor and 1 DDG outside of the harbor completely. The terrain is definitely in favor of the enemy so moving your defensive assets out a little farther will give a little bit better line of sight.
what if the island was surrounded by 2 or 3 patrol boats? so certain players don't waste the missiles
I’d go for a swarm of patrol boats with man pads on and see if that can work
The strategic situation after those losses would be devastating for the IJN; losing half the (best available) pilots in the first attack of the war would have completely changed the early engagements and probably the expansion goals of the high command.
Thanks!
Thanks
The AB's would still have significantly changed the war- the amount of planes and pilots lost would have significantly impacted Japans ability to fight in the pacific
Lots of fun! Maybe don't stack the deck and run it again. Separate the destroyers so they don't duplicate so much and make it harder for Bird to trick them. Weasels? Really? Don't get me wrong, I loved it but you tied the Burke's hands. I love it that you post something every day. Addicted to you guys.
The damage models for WW2 things usually seem to be able to shrugg off too much damage.
The AI defense should have included the many US aircraft that took off from airfields. The modern destroyers would probably have been more effective if there had been one at each end of the harbor. If a human or two had been on the defender side, that would have been cool.
If 184 SAMs killed 184 Japanese aircraft (and not counting CIWS or Bushmaster kills) that's over 50% of the 353 planes launched by the Japanese on December 7th, 1941. Historically, those pilots lost were the best the Japanese had. That would have meant the Japanese replacing all their air groups for Midway six (6) months later with inexperienced pilots. The Japanese would have been defeated at sea by 1943 instead of 1944 at the Marianas "Turkey shoot". Great video!
I wanna see a recreation of the scenario from The Final Countdown. I always felt cheated that we didn’t get to see an entire fleet defense airwing go head to head against the Imperial Navy.
Read some John Birmingham 'axis of time'
How about something different like a Japanese Kongo Class destroyer experiencing the same and participating in the Pearl Harbor attack with the Japanese fleet?
@@brianwesley28 hey ive seen that anime
@@ninjafroggie1 If it was anime,, I'm surprised it wasn't Godzilla. 😆
@@brianwesley28 its called zipang
If you're going to run a simulation, you should tell your guys that the Japanese would not be wild-weasling the SA-2's, ffs.
13:15 - sorry Simba, but when there's dozens of dirty big holes in a WWII fighter, the pilot has to be dead.
The movie, "The Final Countdown" had the newly deployed USS NIMITZ, close to stoping it....until fate, stopped the ship and crew, from singlehandedly wiping out the Japanese taskforce.
The F14 vs. Zeros alone, is worth the watch.
Requested Pooch comment. You sir, have a style and grace which is your own.
They ran on high octane gasoline. I'm a refinery engineer and our 100 year old company made a lot of it during WW2.
thx
100/130 oct, process developed by French engineer Houdry who emigrated to the USA in '31, that and a goodly dose of TEL. I wonder if @cuz129 is part of what was the Associated Ethyl Company, now Associated Octel Co, in earlier days AECo had the benefit of Freddie Banks** who brewed some really potent stuff for the Schneider S.6 and we all know the history of that.
** Air Commodore Francis Rodwell "Rod" Banks CB, OBE, Hon. CGIA., Hon. FRAeS, Hon. FAIAA., FlMechE., Flnst Pet., FRSA, CEng., MSAE
What company? I’ve tested AVGAS octanes.
@Bushy556 It was Lion Oil, in Arkansas, later part of Monsanto. We made high octane av gas with sulfuric acid alkylation of isobutane and C4 olefins to produce iso octane which is exactly 100 octane before tetraethyl lead is added to kick it up into plus 100 octane blends. Of course that was way before my time, though my dad did serve on an aircraft carrier in WW2 in the Pacific theater.
Oh Sweet! This should be extremely exciting!!!!! Thanks CAP and Team!!!!
Why wasn't the 5" cannons on the Arleigh Burke's firing in anti-air mode?
12:30 a good death is its own reward
I'd say this is a fun "What if" scenario, though that the biggest issues with this analysis are...
1. Fear factor: The Japanese would be flying over 50 miles offshore (barely able to see Oahu) when their buddies next to them suddenly exploded into fireballs. They didn't have radar, they wouldn't know what was happening, just that all of a sudden dozens and dozens of airplanes were vaporized in seconds. The shock would be a TREMENDOUS moral destroyer as they were wholly going on surprise in the actual raid and now have to try and imagine what the Americans have in store for them.
2. Radar. Biggest issue here. The two destroyers would have located the vast squadrons of fighters and given their location to Pearl Harbor, Hickham, and the other bases. All the American planes would have been scrambled to meet this threat, the sailors would not have been caught sleeping, and ships would be underway. So it wouldn't have been hundreds of Japanese planes vs two destroyers. It would have been hundreds of Japanese planes, vs 100's of American planes and the entire US fleet ready to meet them.
3. Accuracy: You nailed this in your analysis that the game wasn't good enough to get the missile hit rate where it would be. Pilots in the 40's did not have to contend with missiles, just machine gun fire or land based fire. Each missile would be 1 plane destroyed. Having modern day people piloting 1940's planes to try and avoid radar would not have happened back then. It would have been the Marianas Turkey Shoot a few years early.
But that is my in depth analysis on this. Just one destroyer would have been enough to "wake up" the American fleet and airpower to be mobilized to meet the bombing raid. With most Japanese aircraft ladened with bombs and torpedo's and not enough fighters, the Japanese force would have been obliterated, and the Arleigh Burke would have pinpointed the location of the Japanese fleet before they even knew their planes had been destroyed.
Good evening from Australia, valued Grim Reapers.
G'day
Avgas, highly flammable and explosive. The Zero was built for speed, range and manueverabilty. Protecion was not considered.
The USA supplied high octane avgas to the British and the Soviets. The Japanese and Germans could not match that.
Bird is the fly that disappears as soon as you pick up the flyswatter.
I just happened on your videos guys and they are amazing. Have to catch up with a lot of videos. Keep them coming
“Could Pearl be defended by two modern destroyers, but not actually because one of us is going to fly around, not attack and draw fire and then hide because they know how the missiles work”
FTFY
*The Japanese, approaching Pearl and being gutted in their formations, would not have worked it out that quickly as to develop Weasel like tactics within an hour of being exposed to missiles.
Indeed, the Japs would not even know they WERE missiles.
I had a chat with the AI crews, they were having "Action Snacks" and got distracted.
I’d like to point out that radar was a new concept, land based was new, sea based was very new, airborne was extremely new possibly even a couple months away from development, I highly doubt the Japanese would have determined that they were being blown out of the sky by object traveling many times the speed of sound guided by wavelengths of light, sure they’d have determined the destroyers as a threat early on but they didn’t even start putting radar on their ships until later in to the war so distraction tactics would in my opinion, never have been considered
Simba has really got his 'long toss' down (if you've got it, flaunt it 😉)
He knows how to make the ‘pencil disappear’ too 😏
Poosh’s death was a Shatner-Over The Hedge-level performance
Must….Not…Get….Hit….By….Missiles. LOL
For some reason, when you said you could make a pnecil disappear, my mind skipped over the Batman reference and immediately went to Damp's capability to make a banana disappear.
- President, Damp Sok Valued Viewer Fan Club
“I’m gonna POP!” 😂
This is George.
WWII Fuel: An overly simplified description.
1) The first two years of WWII both British and German aircraft use 80/87 octane fuel. It used 0.5 grams of lead per gallon. Addition lead was not added as it fouled plugs and made valves stick. It had a red dye.
2) A breakthrough in fuel technology from a Chemist in the American oil company Sun Oil, The Cracking Tower. It allowed for better fuel and allowed for more lead with fouling nor valve sticking.
3) The majority of Allied fuels were changed to 100/130 with 3 grams of lead per gallon with a green dye.
4) Some allied aircraft were using 130/145 with between 4 and 6 grams of lead per gallon and used a purple dye.
5) Modern piston aviation fuel (100 Low Lead or 100LL) has 2 grams lead per gallon.
6) The most lead ever used for motor car fuel (MOGAS) was 0.5 grams lead per gallon; 4 times what is STILL used in aviation fuel.
7) JET-A is similar to Diesel #2 but Jet A has considerably more sulfur.
8) JP-8 is JET-A with an added corrosion inhibitor.
9) Diesel #2 has added lubrications considered unnecessary for turbine engines.
10) While JET-A can physically run in a piston diesel engine, it will not pass an emission test while doing so as there is too much sulfur.
Again Overly simplified.
Have the Arleigh Burkes circle the Island. They would not be in port if tasked with defense They would look for subs too. That would shut down the wild weasel.
The Japanese would NOT know to line of sight the missiles. None of the pilots who saw the missiles would likely survive the experience, and even if they did, they wouldn't understand how that rocket was doing those maneuvers.
The prior warning from modern radar would also give the period native ships time to close watertight bulkheads and stand by anti-air weapons and fire crews even if they couldn't get boilers lit.
The Japanese weren't suicidally desperate at this point in the war. You said that they would be dodging and things because they are humans who see these "magic SAMs" but they would likely have broken and called off the attack when the first 50 planes launched had enough time to scream into their radios and die. They wouldn't just keep sending planes when they didn't understand what is happening after taking those losses from weapons they don't understand. They wouldn't know the missiles were limited.
The German and Japanese aircraft ran on low-octane gasoline (some of it was 70 octane) and at the end of the war, Japan was digging up tree stumps to distill wood alcohol (methanol) for aviation fuel.
So they were effectively booze carriers LOL
Cool Video guy's! Thanks Again..... Ya CWIS didn't have enough ammo either. What about a Ready Carrier Strike group 50-75 miles offshore on the opposite side of the Island kinda like we did in the Midway Island fight. But use a Modern Us Carrier Strike Group! That seems to me like a good battle. 1- US Modern Carrier Strike Group against the Japanese Invasion Fleet of Pearl Harbor. Also I would throw an Airbase with either Warbirds, A-10's, or Apache's for some land based help that I think they will probably need. But no F-16's or 15's cause that would just tip the scale too much I think. So maybe 2-4 Squadrons of Ground based assets.
So, apart from planes, what else are you able to control? Ships? Subs? Tanks?
Yes, they can steer ships, move and shoot with tanks. Don’t think they have control of subs yet
So 5" has rounds to take on planes, did you figure out why the weren’t firing? But yeah the outcome would have been better for the Americans if they had 2 Mondern DDGs. The advanced warning alone would have made a big difference. Also the SeaRam is on the aft mount. Not all have it but they are putting it on more ships.
To be fair, the 1940s pilots would not have had the knowledge of modern missile systems so there would have been a high % of hits on incoming aircraft which would would have caused the admiral to recall his remaining aircraft so the 2 modern destroyers would have stopped the attach early.
Human attackers using knowledge that the Japanese wouldn't have does more to ruin the hypothetical than it does to add entertainment value
Obligatory comment complementing Poosh on his glorious death at 12:35 per Cap's orders
You could add the P40s and F4fs with a couple of humans just to add some of the US aircraft that actually got into the air on Dec 7.
It would be interesting to see 76mm Oto Meleras in game. Italian FREMMs and Horizons. carry multiple mounts.
That death sequence was, in fact, sexy poetry.
To be fair, the enemy would never press the attack.
A real US crew would send the standard missiles out against the long range higher altitude attackers only and would watch what hits and what doesn't.
Once random Japanese aircraft start randomly blowing up for "no reason", they would turn around. There is a limit to the number of aircraft that could just "explode" in mid-air for unknown reasons before they would stop what they are doing.
Supersonic Standard Missiles would be "god-like" weapons to the Japanese and long before they were all destroyed, they would turn tail and run home.
Further, the modern destroyers would not stay in Pearl Harbor, they would put to sea as their systems are more effective in the open water and underway.
The planes wouldn't have spawned in like that to save time, as you said they'd be getten taken out by the carriers still, PH's CAP would be up with modern radar giving them an hour's warning, the Japanese wouldn't know how to break lock (or even know they were locked on) plus would still be over water with no cover.
1/2 the Japanese attack would be wiped out bairly off the carriers before the missiles ran out (and while there might not have been enough missiles for the full force, it'd have 100% the 1st wave) and if that didn't abort the attack, PH's CAP (and likely American carrier aircraft once they heard about Japanese radar contacts over the radio) would intercept the rest on approach. Some Japanese might get thru but it wouldn't be a crippling attack and an abort after the 1st wave mysteriously disappeared in a blaze of glory would have been the likely Japanese response.
Today on the news. 3 missiles were shot from Yemen To Israel and they went over an Arley Burke destroyer and the destroyer Shot all 3 down
Hi Cap & GR Crew,
In the spirit of modern fighters vs WW2/Early Gold War missions: Could DPRK MiG-29s have turned the tide at the Battle of Incheon in 1950?
Or
Could modern attack helicopters have saved Pearl Harbor with Hellfires/AAMs?
Really like the Korean War idea!!
It depends on whether they have FLIR or not...
Have GR ever tried the reverse and using a small force of more modern aircraft to attack Pearl Harbour (defended by AIs)? I can't remember.
Also wondering if GR ever tried defending with period aircraft?
(How many would be required to successfull defend Pearl Harbour's fleet? If the US had advance warning and had their carriers ready and waiting as well as the land forces... But the poor server wouldn't stand a chance, unless things were scaled down.)
That would be interesting, if terrifying to see what would happen if a fleet of Carriers, defended by modern destroyers and corvettes with access to F-35 warplanes, elint F-18's and even F-14,s could do if they deployed hundreds of jets and planes.
Some of the most fun videos ever! And I vote Pooosh for the most stylish death!
He was turned into a Swiss cheese 😂
@@douglasarthur2673…yes, but it was very stylish Swiss cheese
cool scenario, i imagine the destroyer captains once they recovered from their time-travel event and established comms with the local USN, they'd strongly recommend making full steam for AshM SM-6 range of the IJN carrier group, same missile vs a carrier is way more efficient than vs a zero
As far as the tracers on CWIS, could you please add the tracers back in for dramatic effect? GR kept in missile smoke and even color coded them for the same reason. I miss my tracers! 🥺
It's CH's mod I can't do it.
@@grimreapersagreed - maybe CH can add it for us valued viewers enjoyment?…ps. CH is Awesome!
My request, a modern Pearl Harbor attack. China and Russia have put all their active carriers into the South Pacific for massive war games, including the normal surface ships for each. Suddenly, they start a direct attack on Pearl with everything they have. How would the average ships stationed there hold up, maybe including one carrier group sent to shadow the war games fleets? P. S. Thanks for all the great fun you provide!
I like the idea of a modern version but I would stage it in Guam, where there are heightened tensions as China is poised to invade Taiwan outright with the Chinese Fleet blockading Taiwan for months and then Russia and Iranian naval assets all converge on the American, Japanese and Australian naval assets built up at Guam.
If a flotilla like that attacked Hawaii we would retaliate against the fleet with nuclear weapons. That would essentially be an end of the world scenario because we wouldn't tolerate that aggression against a state. Not to mention, our carriers would be sitting right there looking at them. They couldn't move those assets into place without us doing the same, and our carriers aren't a floating piece of shit like the Russian's "carrier"
@@-Bill. Yes, most of these scenarios introducing a modern day factor ignore nuclear weapons and circumglobal delivery systems.
@@-Bill.We wouldn't retaliate with nuclear weapons because they wouldn't make it to pearl, The Pacific is divided into 10 areas of operation for attack submarines, that means they would need to get through the two seawolfs we have active, and four Virginia's, not to mention the Japanese and Philippine navies.
Basically the task force would get intercepted about a dozen times before making it half way to pearl, this would be a slugging match in the Japanese straight between the US 7th fleet, the US 3rd fleet and the Japanese Maritime self-defense Force combined fleet against The PLAN North Sea Fleet, East Sea Fleet and South Sea fleet as well as what ever rust buckets of scrap iron the Russians could pull together
With a half hour warning most of the ships would have more than enough time to get guns ready. I'm sure the big guns don't take that long.
14:14 "Make a pencil disappear"
*THWACK*
"Ta-da! Magic!"
Hazzzaa to pooche - best death sequence.
Simba is far too good at this
Maybe move the destroyer outside of the port like one on each side of the island maybe add one more so they actually have enough missiles to do the job
"You won! Now there's the little matter of the bill...."
can you do f-16 mlu with apkws and pods vs shead swarm + cruise missiles? Us successful shot down cruise missiles with apkws in 2019
Now that I have seen a few minutes of live action, I have changed my mind! It will all come down to how accurate the CWIS is. Cause they are going to run out of Surface to Air Missiles....
And I think it be a little better with a American Air Fleet that could respond as well. I don't know if that is just too much running for the server, but I think it be cool.
Good point. I belief the main factor is amount of ammunition and how many CWIS systems are installed on each destroyer.
Keep in mind the Japanese would have no idea on the ammo limits of the defenders or how the heck they lost so many planes before ever even seeing Pearl Harbor (Wild Weasel tactics would not have been used at all as they would have been clueless as to what they were facing). I feel after the decimation of the lead wave I really believe they may have called off the remainder of the attack to regroup and access the situation.
I think if the destroyers knew where the planes were coming from they would send the tomahawks and game over 😂
With the initial waves being basically stopped wouldn't the air forces on the island have been able to get airborne though? And what about the anti shit capabilities preventing future waves
In brief, I would like to see this simulation re-done with three Arleigh Burke class destroyers without human players or advanced A.I. dodging and weaseling missiles. Although the human factor as Cap pointed out is real and a vital part of any battle, that human factor to adapt is crippled on the American side in this scenario as DCS gives limited real-time control of ships and tactics for naval assets. My guess is that three Arleigh Burkes might be able to hold off the bulk of the invasion if they are able to: maneuver effectively, store more s6 missiles, be tactically smarter by delaying the deployment of missiles and lastly, storing more sea whiz ammunition. With only one 10 inch cannon, it also might be smarter to install another sea whiz system on each of the destroyers if physically possible. My guess is that many if not most of the warbirds might still get through but their effective damage upon the stationed fleet would be much less. The active destroyers would also buy time for many of the personell on the ships to effectively fight and or abandon the ships when they become critically hit. In any case I suspect any of the Arleigh Class destroyers would prefer to sail with at least one Nimitz class carrier or even an Ohio class submarine. I enjoy the Grim Reapers videos and appreciate the hard and often frustrating amount of work, time, money and resources put into the videos. I also appreciate the camraderie and joy the members of Grim Reapers bring to these videos. ty cap and GR. Also, reading through a comment, the destroyers were in an effectively reactionary and defensive mode when they are capable of lethal offensive capabilities. By deploying advanced cruise missiles, tomahawks. torpedoes (if the ships can maneuver properly and timely) and ship killing missiles like harpoons they might be able to cripple a few of the Japanese naval assets enough to critically slow the progress of the invasion. Another brilliant commentator also pointed out that Arleigh Burkes are capable of fielding helicopters. By deploying a few Apache class helicopters with harpoons and hellfire (torpedoes?), 20mm gatling guns and perhaps a sikorsky with decent radar and intel gathering capabilities the entire Japanese fleet could be stopped, half sunk and in dissarray. At that time the limited radar capabilities would be too weak to prevent a stand-off attack from missile carrying helicopters let alone a stealth class helicopter.
Very well thought out and loong comment but I agree with the destroyer positioning. Just FYI, the sea whiz is actually an acronym for Close In Weapons System (CIWS). 100% get where you got sea whiz from though it does sound like that 😅
Way to much to read so here is a Butter cake recipe.
125g butter, chopped, at room temperature, 3/4 cup caster sugar, 1 tsp vanilla essence, 2 eggs, 2 cups self-raising flour, sifted, 2/3 cup milk, Vanilla icing, 2 cups icing sugar, 15g butter, 1-2 tbsp hot water, 1 tsp vanilla extract.
Step 1
Preheat oven to 180C. Lightly grease a deep, 20cm round cake pan. Line base with baking paper.
Step 2
Beat butter, sugar and vanilla together in a large bowl using an electric mixer, until pale and creamy. (see Notes)
Step 3
Add eggs one at a time, beating well after each addition, scraping down sides of bowl. Lightly fold flour into creamed mixture alternately with milk, beginning and ending with flour. Spoon mixture into prepared pan, smoothing top.
Step 4
Bake for 40-45 mins, or until cooked, when tested. Cool in pan for 5 mins, before turning onto a wire rack to cool completely.
Step 5
To make the vanilla icing: Sift icing sugar into a bowl. Add butter, water and vanilla. Beat well with a wooden spoon until a smooth spreadable consistency. Spread over cooled cake. Decorate, if desired. Store in an airtight container.
Why? Why do u want to see this?
What's the point? They've done 1 destroyer, 2, 3, a whole squad, modern jets, modern carrier strike group, modern missile deffences.. WHY WOULD YOUR SUGGESTION be so much better? Wtf?!?
It would give a chance to eliminate the factors that in my opinion do not give a clear and conclusive ( to the extent possible) answer to the question of whether a few modern destroyers could actually defeat or sufficiently blunt the pearl harbor attack. Pearl Harbour was a turning point in Naval Warfare; standoff attacks using reconnaissance and aircraft carriers became standard doctrine. Today, the full power of the mighty Arleigh Burkes and other multiple missile carrying ships has not been fully tested (Falklands war?) in a full scale conflict. I would merely like to see this tested to the limit just like it would be cool to see how far 6th gen jet aircraft coupled with drones and integrated battlespace tactics would change the battlespace in the skies. But that is not everyone's cup of tea or morning Joe. Which is cool.
A glorious and cinematic death, Poosh! Salute!
🫡 💥
Love the video. The big thing is the destroyers would have held off the Japanese long enough to allow the fighters from the airbases to get in the fight and not be destroyed on the ground.
Simba is always a badass, we don`t call him the people's champ for no reason . . . now do we..
would love to see a naval reenactment of the battle of Guadacanal where they fought at night. I want to see navy ships lighting eachother up with all those tracers at night and explosions. I know you said RUclips screws up the compression for night videos but it would be lovely to see if possible.
Can you imagine the difference even a single APS-124 search radar sitting at 10k feet would have made. the APS-124 search radar was made to work with the Tico's and Berks system, allowing them to target cruise missiles and sea skimming missiles.
with a max range of 296.3 km against carrier sized targets... it would be able to spot anything about 160 kt miles out from pearl.
They would have been able to detect the aircraft out to about 80 miles... for anything flying below the horizon.
The Japanese wouldn't of known in 1941 how to jink incoming AA missiles.
If your a Grumman child , or a Tomcat lover, there's a movie about this where a carrier goes through a worm hole and ends up from the 1980s to the day of Pearl Harbour, and F-14s are buzzing Zeros , and its just a great movie...
The Final Countdown
A Pacific aircraft carrier enters a time warp and finds itself transported from 1980 to 1941 - just before the attack on Pearl Harbor. The captain is forced to decide whether to strike at the approaching Japanese fleet and change the entire course of the World War II.
@@Evocati-Augusti yes
It leaves a nasty aftertaste though as the final battle never happens. Wish there was a version where it does.
@@BoraHorzaGobuchul I thought these guys tried it awhile ago..
idea for the future, when you have a more resilient server: pearl harbor with a couple of squadrons of modern helicopters defending it.
questions:
why have the Japanese fleet present? if you're not spawning the planes on the carrier, and the players aren't coming after them, they're just taking up space in the server's brain.
what skill level did you have the Japanese pilots at? just asking because having them at anything other than the highest skill level would be a disservice to their side. irl, those were some of the best pilots around.
can you add some Kates? I'd love to see those big, honkin' 800kg AP bombs at work.
Octane for warbirds in WWII era, was WELL over 100. I'd still like to see the results from a simulation of an infantry batallion armed with stinger missiles.
I think the defense was quite strong. The amount of aircraft that the Japanese lost compared to the damage they did in this attack would rate a failure. Most of the heaviest damage to the fleet was made in the first wave of the attack on pearl harbor. Those two ships would have fended off a good portion of that wave with both its missiles as well as guns. Also the Japanese would not have known to do those deception like attacks to draw missiles. In reality the whole scenario doesn't work with planes spawning so close and no torpedo planes.
One how to account for Japanese surprise. Would the ships radar detecting the approach of the Japanese planes cause an alert. I would then just do the first wave of the attack since that would be the most important wave. It was the wave that did the most damage on the American fleet. Spawn the Japanese planes where they would be doing their attach runs with the correct number of planes. If the two ships defend this attack wave I would basically deem the Japanese attack to been a failure. For if many of the planes attack were taken out then would the US have a larger cap up along with more of an alert status for air defenses. This simulator seems limited to set up a detailed simulation so yes just do the first wave and either give the Japanese the element of surprise of some sort and not use what the human players keep doing. Human players should make an actual real approach on the ships for that is what the Japanese would have done. Other wise this is mostly just a fun scenario and no real conclusions can be made from it.
Exactly, the human players are effectively gaming the scenario with the weasel tactic in order to survive long enough to make, ironically kamikaze dives to get battle damage points.
Do a Type 45 defending Singapore!!!
If the new destroyers saw the Japanese coming from far off, maybe the US would have gotten more fighters in the air? Should be part of the exercise?
I think the ships will keep Pearl Harbor Pretty Safe! They might sink one Vessel. If they were smart they would target the firing ships first...
In order to solve the more planes than middle problem, why don't you load all the vls launchers with ESSM middles quad packed with more middles; just a thought?
It would have been sweet to allow the humans to fly P-40 off of Wheeler
I love these anachronistic battles that you set up.
It would probably have taken five or six Arleigh Burkes to properly defend against that attack; and it would need for some of them to be outside the harbour so as to reduce the effectiveness of the weaseling.
Well, he did say that they could've hit the planes as they were taking off from the carriers. So... Why not aim for the carriers before the planes start taking off? Seems logical to me, even though they're technically anti-aircraft weapons, since you're fighting 1920s or 1930s steel with much more modern warheads
The Arleigh-Burkes carry Tomahawk and Harpoon missiles, which would have decimated those carriers.
@-Bill. - yeah, that's probably right. I was thinking of the anti-aircraft weaponry only.
The delays in the first wave being cut apart by the modern Destroyers allowed the WW2 ship crews time to man all their guns and with massive overlapping fields of fire it totally shredded the Japanese second waves.
How about this, no wild weasel until after the first human or two die from missiles.
Great video fun to watch good job. I really enjoyed watching this.
This did make me think of a couple of things. The Japanese would not have wild weasel tactics as they would have 0 idea how they were being killed other than it was something very fast, very long range, explosive, and accurate. They would have no idea how they were being targeted much less how to confuse these modern systems. Taking this into account the 1st wave would have been decimated, most likely before even seeing Pearl Harbor. Seeing their buddies vaporized without an American in sight, most likely any subsequent waves would have been cancelled and the Japanese Navy would have cut their losses and beat feet out of there to regroup and determine what just happened and what new technology they were facing. At this point in WW2 there may have been fanatical but were not suicidal yet as the still controlled most of the Pacific. Another side note since it seems any Japanese that did get through were ignoring the airfields (and other installations) and the radar on the Burke's would have given ample notice there would have been a significant US WW2 era air presence to clean up any Zeros that foolishly continued the mission. Also, the advanced notice of incoming enemies would have allowed the WW2 era US ships to be set to combat conditions rather than being caught flat footed by the 1st wave. I know the engine has limits and this is by no means scientific, but the Burkes and the US forces were fighting with parameters that would be unrealistic even in this fantasy setting, basically a one-legged man in an ass kicking contest. I believe 2 Burkes would have turned the tide to the point of being a decisive US victory (with minimal US losses) that may have made the Japanese reconsider their entire Pacific campaign.
Thinking further I would imagine after the US victory at Pearl Harbor the Burkes and the faster WW2 era ships may have even set out in pursuit of the IJN and once the gap was closed enough (the Japanese would be slowed to the speed of the slowest ships in their fleet). Then the harpoons would have had a field day. But that is well beyond the scope of this simulation.
That humans controlled Wild Weasels and AI controlled Arleigh Burked and Japanese strike aircraft seems to unrealistically tip the scales.
If humans are running Wild Weasels, it would stand to reason that a human Anti-Air Warfare officer would have recognized that and not mindlessly dumped 70 missiles on them.
Also, the lack of a human on the Japanese strike side failed to model the devastating effect on morale that would have occurred had 90 planes from the first wave had been shot down. Another channel modelled a battle between a modern US Marine company (100+ men) versus 10,000 Roman legionnaires. The Romans advanced on the Marines and 1,000 Romans were killed before they even go close. The remaining 9,000 Romans did not automatically advanced into the kilming zone. Hard to think hsving the first wave essentially wiped out would not gave tge Japanese pause.
It's an interesting scenario, but the selective involvement of humsn intervention made the results not particularly illuminating.
Furthermore, it seems like the 5" guns of the Arleigh Burkes didn't fire for some unknown reason.
I'm betting it's the cone angle, the plane is shorter than a modern fighter, and the missiles are designed to hit the engines.
5:30: Plus if you put in an AWACS it wouldn't be two destroyers defending it any more.
Those ships are very good at stopping limited numbers of expensive fighters. The modern equivalent would be swarms of drones, die till they run out of ammo.
How this WW2 ACFT can survive a SM-2 DIRECT HIT
How come the five inch guns on the Burkes don't also engage the targets. Not at all realistic without them.
Ex- US Navy here. A few things that need to be different to make this more realistic on the Arleigh Burke Destroyers. and I know this would take time to remodel and such. For slow targets, the destroyers would have been using 5 inch, 25mm Bushmaster, and M2 .50cal machine guns. The 5-inch would have been HE and they have a Cannister round meant for anti swarms. The Bushmaster should have been obliterating the aircraft with their HE rounds. It really looked like the aircraft was just shrugging off the 25mm rounds when in reality it should have been blowing off their wings at 4 Miles out. Lastly is the .50cal gunners, who in reality would not have a good effective range or accuracy, they would be a kind of last line of defense. each .50 cal mount would have about 4-6 belts. CWIS could be reloaded in a combat scenario, it's not fast but possible.
The Destroyers themselves would have went underway as soon as they detected the threat strategically positioning themselves to provide ample coverage and to remove terrain from being an issue for their missiles and radars. They would have set up no fire zones to reduce the chance of firing on the same target, and they would be using real time data between the two ships to select targets and to track such a large amount of targets.
I'm sure there is more others have stated, but I'm sure you get the idea. Overall I like the videos and it's true, 2 destroyers trying to take down 300+ anything would be a massive challenge.
Very good missiles yes, yes!! Oh well maybe not that one!!! Fell out of my chair laughing, love it keep it up!!!
What if the island defenders joined in with the defense given they have early warning( p40s, F2s and the ships AA
Could you model in the fact that if x2 modern ships were fending off an air attack from range that the Army Air Force would have time to scramble fighters? I feel like that would make even more of a significant advantage if they managed to get up a few squadrons in CAP.
Those CWIS R2D2s alone would protect the fleet. Cruise missiles are a cherry on top with striking the japanese navy fleet. Even then if they existed during pearl harbor it would have definitely protected a few ships minimum.
Good point, those two destroyers were effectively only using defensive tactics; reacting to the active threat when they are capable of deploying ship killing missiles like harpoons and heavy warhead delivery systems like tomahawks.