@@ElGoogKO Lets not kid ourselves this mod is cool and all but it is horribly unbalanced compared to zerospace and stormgate. Going forward I see a majority of SC players going to zerospace since it is the spiritual successor sc2 more so than this mod and stormgate.
Fun fact about mind control in Broodwar. Supply of each race was considered different kind of supply. So if you took control of enemy worker and start building up, You could build up to 600 supply (200 for each race if you play against 2 opponents with different races), making Protoss kind of busted xD
Sure you can, but it's something nearly impossible to execute properly Because: 1) Snatched worker can die just immediately even by the hand of other workers around 2) Building up the whole infrastructure of another race is already a lot of time and money, and upgrades are even more costly, we aren't even talking 200 supply army here 3) Unless map is really huge, you might even get out of free space building all the stuff for all the races I assume most you can do ususally is just reiforce your army with something that has tons of value for the cost. Like medics and seige tanks.
@@Saren-yc1rk i might remember this wrong but if you mind con a unit that already has upgrades and then you mind con the worker you don't have to make those upgrades since it just gives it to you, right?
There's also the fact that Zerg creep prevented any other races building from building on it so it had to be separated. The more overpowered thing was that you could Recall sieged tanks (they did patch that out eventually because it was soooo broken, just send in a bunch of arbiters into the enemy base and suddenly a cloaked ball of death nuking everything into dust.)
“Nexus first into … forge?” Hearing lowko express such confusion at basic brood war opening optimization is very funny. For those not in the know maps in brood war have to be balanced around what can and can’t be done. Entrances to bases have to be wide but not so wide as to make it impossible to defend against a four pool. Most modern maps, including fighting spirit, are designed to allow for a wall off against early aggression in order to get a fast expansion up. For Protoss it’s usually gateway and forge with a single zealot to plug the hole. In brood war canons are very necessary to defend against a wide variety of early Zerg rushes.
Yea I was looking at that the entire time lol, could have been a very different game if he spent some of those floating resources on his melee upgrades sooner
SC2 Psionic Storm deals 80 damage in the target area in small packets over 2.85 seconds, and hits both air and ground units. It injures friendly units caught in the area of effect of 1.5 SC Brood War Inflicts total 112 damage to all units within a target area over 3 seconds (14 damage in 8-frames intervals, starting from the 16th frame after cast, resulting in 8 damage instances over 64 frames).
The thing I really love about this mod is that it's basically following in the footsteps of Command and Conquer 3 & Kane's Wrath and what that game did with sub-factions. Which added a whole lot more depth and choice and playstyle differentiation to that game. I mean, there will arise a need to balance some things eventually, when the meta is more understood, but even the concept of having SC2 engine and 6 factions to choose from.. that's undeniably refreshing and exiting and can only be a good thing for both games.
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz p2 would have more answers to z2 Ultras but p1? not really ... p1 more or less has to play dragoon+templar+zealot+reaver ... carrierrush is expensive and z2 very likely will have answers to that ...
Lowko: "More StarCraft Evolution?" Everyone here: "Yes please" Edit: You mention at 25:05 that Arbiter does not have an attack which is incorrect. At least in Brood Wars they had an attack and still had in Legacy of the Void campaign. Unless the mod creator tweaked it to remove the Arbiter attack.
They've always had an attack in all variations. In SC1 though, its attack is a pitifully weak one that is on the level of ladder SC2 High Templars, of 10 damage of Explosive type. Translates into 5 damage to small, 7.5 on medium, and 10 on large.
I haven’t played or watched StarCraft since maybe 2017 but I’ve recently started watching your videos again; very happy to see you’re still at it Lowko!
"Attacking ability" refers to an ability/spell that deals damage, which the Arbiter never had. What you're referring to is usually just considered a "basic attack" or "right-click" in most game casts
I've been saying it since this trend to play this mod started, that more players need to start using the brood war spells and finally, someone did! Now I wanna see some sc1 Terran using lockdown vs sc2 Terran mech/protoss mech (sc1/2).
the sole reason why Terran bio units (marines & medics) are never used against Protoss in SC1 was Reavers and Psionic Storms, spells were nasty back then
I think SC1 spells are more powerful for a few reasons such as them being balanced for a game that has much more challenging unit control. Like... Storm damage doesnt stack, and if you're not up on your control, you'll accidentally waste A Lot of templar energy accidentally telling all of them to storm the exact same area. Meanwhile SC2 Storm is much more user-friendly thus energy efficient, so SC2 reducing its damage and duration seems very reasonable in that context.
sc2 toss exactly its just a selection of cheeses like a charcuterie board. there's little solid reliable units. high templar are okay but not as good as sc1. mass stalkers with some immortals and a couple colossi. or go skytoss. those are your options for a somewhat reliable army. even then 4/5 will die to terran bioball. if you survive that, you're against vikings and thors+siege.
Honestly one of the reasons I really enjoy your StarCraft content is because you use clean language and I don’t have to worry about hearing you swear. ❤ I appreciate your efforts and love your content!
10:20 Ah yes, the control group Dark Archon walking right into the middle of your own storms and the enemy army because you tried casting without energy… I do not miss this.
Yea, that was a big discussion point around early WOL days. The way units stack up in SC2 makes AOE insanely strong. Siege tanks used to deal full 80 damage to both light and armored units in SC2, that was nerfed heavily, a line of tanks would blast zealots from the AOE alone. Storm was nerfed aswell. The deathball meta that followed the nerfs to AOE damage was the first thing that made BW veterans realise it was not gonna be the same, some quit at that point and went back to BW.
4:04 First of all, in this version of a mod you *can* see BW on BW, I've seen couple of games like that. Secondly, there are 2 other versions of this mod, although not activly supported, from the devs comments on *some* of the videos (Also, I don't remember the names of other versions, so I will give summary descriptions of them): First one is what I call "More Balance edition", because it features more balance changes, aswell as completly new units and upgrades; Second one is purely Starcraft 1/Brood War in Starcraft 2 - no Sc2 races and *most* mecanics from Starcraft 1 are present, such as highground miss chance.
about 20 years ago I was playing one of the big money maps and went scouts. had about 3 dozen when my opponent scouted them. He mocked me called me a noob. and challenged me to attack him. So I flew around to the back side of his base and destroyed his mining before he could get his goliaths back to his base. The goliaths moved in single file through his base so he couldn't bring them in any significant numbers. Scouts had their place.
Very true. Scouts can be good when you have a stupid amount of them and can maneuver them around an enemy ground army especially. The thing is your oppenent has to be pretty bad in the first place for you to ever have 3 hotkeys of them in the first place.
@@leifkhas7425 This is really only possible on big money maps. when you have almost unlimited minerals and gas it becomes a much more viable thing. In addition it was a 3 vs 3 so there was plenty going on.
Keyword: big money maps. for those 3 scout groups you could have 2 carrier groups. unless you were purely going against an air army, you'd always choose the carriers. with a couple arbiters splashed in.
I think the SC2 spellcasters would benefit from a little more rock paper scissors interaction. The only 2 existing interactions they have that I can think of is the range of feedback (vs ghost and/or vipers) and the neural a ghost to emp the whole group. I image a setup where EMP and Guardian Shield could have an interaction. And maybe in the case of this mod maybe dark swarm? Where EMP gets lower impact under the shield or they cancel eachother on contact or something. I think we shouldn't do a straight up nerf or massive change to any of the spellcasters because it'll feel terrible. But adding interactions will just make the game more dynamic and fun.
Spells in BW were game changing and mandatory for your army late game especially. SC2 Had just broken spells like infested terran from the infesters that could carry a game its self. Bw had deflinars that had dark swarm, and the red goo, which will literally make your ground army UNSTOPPABLE. high templars and the archons with mind control, psi storm, maelstorm which could Literally WIPE OUT ANY ARMY. Arbitars which would cloak thousands of carriers and air units, then recall mass reavers in your base, while freezing your WHOLE ARMY in place...... Terran had all the counter tools spells like EMP shockwave, Energy shields, Irradiate (poison ability that works against all bio... and lockdown which could help against protoss army alot. Every race in SCBW had a spell that was broken, or could counter any other race. They all had broken abilities that made them soo good. But ive always thought zergs had the CHEAPEST abilities in BW, while protoss just had all the CHEESE abilities... Terran was just overly technical. I use to play alot in my childhood days. Played alot of 1v1 on non money maps and money maps, and a shit ton of UMS. i lived on SC BW.
I wish you kept the original player colors during these. I know it's easier to cast when the colors are distinct but there's such nice variety in the colors and it's a bit shame we keep seeing the same red & blue all the time. Great vids always though!
This mod looks freaking amazing... I would love to see a "mixture" of both though. Old zerg with the new creep mechanics, old protoss with the new warping mechanics, and old terran with reactors/techlabs. Kind of the old units with the new mechanics (the flying queen spreading creep would be weird, tbh)
that was actually a ridiculessly cool game. damn protoss need their good combo abilities back, and Z need their big scary monsters etc.. it looks damn cool. a ttw SC mod could be awesome :P
The spells in bw are stronger simply because there are less of them. Also, casting spells in bw was far more difficult. If you selected multiple casters and cast a spell, ALL the casters would cast that spell. So you would build a small number of casters to augment your army to make it easier to keep them spread out. Deathballing in bw was basically never done and major fights would be engaged at multiple points across entire maps with a stream of units.
Compared to maelstrom and stasis, seems ghost's lockdown is way less obnoxious. Lockdown can only do mechanical units, terran don't have a big AOE that hits both ground and air follow up usually. Although I always find lockdown very hard to deal with.
In Brood War if you can get away with it going Nexus first is a very strong build Mini almost always goes for it in ASL matches if he can. The combination of Maelstrom and Storm is soo good Best destroyed Action in their round of 8 match during ASL S15. I also think Lowko needs to cast the Action vs Sn0w during the SC1 Vs SC2 Supermatch.
Brood War vs SC2 is so interesting. Brood War lacks so many units compared to SC2. Gateway for Broodwar is 4 units, for SC2 its 6. Dragoons dont have an active ability. Zealots don't. Sentry is a whole new spellcaster. Adept is another active extra unit. When you build a robo facility you get 3 units in SC2 vs 1 in Brood War. Brood War requires a building for every new unit: Observatory, Robotics Bay Same for Terran, Academy for Firebat + research instead of a techlab/reactor Meanwhile Zerg do still get the whole building unlocks new things with Baneling Next, but ravager doesn't require it. It's very interesting how Bloated SC2 is and how it incorporated elements from warcraft 3 to the starcraft universe with all the new active spells and side units.
Bloated? i think bw actually lacks funcionality in those early mid game units and it shows. SC2 races seem to have much more harrasing possibilities and mobility compared , even if their units seem on average weaker in head on combat.
Broodwar had a lot of active spells, that didnt start in WC3. I mean the science vessel, queen, arbiter, etc. are all about those; not sure what you mean by side units; do you mean free units, tech req units, or something similar to hero units?
@@bloodydove5718 broodwars spellcasters were specific seperate units like the Warcraft 2 spellcasters. But in sc2 you get more active abilities on every unit. Which is something that started in Warcraft 3. Charge for zealots in sc2 vs movespeed increase in BW or Raiders in Warcraft 3 having ensnare and ghouls having Canabalize. Which is somewhat similar to basically all Stargate and Gateway units having abilities to press.
Stasis might need a nerf, but not a big one. Scouts definitely need a big buff. I would prefer to leave Dark Archon alone, Maelstrom is powerful, but it only works on bio, and SC2 Ultras are immune to it, so Zerg does have an answer to it. I think the transition to Broodlords was a mistake, he should have stuck with Ultras!
SC1 Psi Storm is 112 damage over 2.97 seconds - 14 damage per second! Dark Archons do theoretically counter Vipers - assuming that the variables stayed the same, they have a range of 10 on their Feedback compared to the Vipers' range of 9 on Abduct. Also, SC1 Feedback's damage is 1-to-1, instead of the halved damage of SC2. There could be shenanigans with unit size and cast time, though, so I dunno if it'd really work out in the Dark Archon's favor. I think that the answer to Ultralisks is to drop DTs on the Cavern.
yep. As a SC1 player who went into playing SC2, I was somewhat dissapointed with the new psi storm I tho not at all surprised. In SC1, if you see a HT you run until you can kill it from range, always. It was very powerful, especially when BW came out and now you have maelstrom. Tho you can always spawn brood it with a queen or irradiate it with science vessel.
YES, more StarCraft Evolution!!! oh, I totally forgot about the different way to spread creep in BW, lol and....ah, the SC1 DT attack sound :D 25:03 Lowko: obviously the Arbital doesn't have a attacking ability of its own Me: it attacked just before you said that, lol *lowko blindness strikes again*
storm in brood war did 112 damage over 8 ticks and it ticks once ever .33s (starting 0.67s after the spell is cast is the first tick) (taken from liquidpedia)
Previously one of the theoretical explanations for SC2's Storms getting damage nerf was that SC2 units are more clumped than SC1. However with this mod, it would seem that SC1's Storms are objectively better than SC2's.
SC1 storm are better in every way than SC2 storm. The only exception is it is more difficult to micro a HT, and if you have all your HT selected they will all storm unlike in SC2 which is a huge waste of energy, but honestly that is just a huge noob error.
Lingo comment: hello Lowko, your guess about the different pronunciations of "Tribunal" is correct, as far as I can tell. TRAI for Americans, TRI for Brits (only as far as language standards go, of course).
interesting. I am American, but never heard either Americans or British pronounce it (as I played SC1 before discord was a thing) so I ended up guessing it the British way.
every time zealot get leg enhancement upgrade, I keep imagine they just wear taller platform shoe. So technically they run faster from having longer leg.
26:54 problem is they are core off all armies and only P should have many spellcasters off different types with huge impact. terran should only have nukes,emp and armor missile; stuff where adding more doesnt do much, zergs should be basically spellcaster free; with their spellcasters more like harassing units like plague cast, the kill twin unit spawn spell, etc. where again massing them is no more effective than having a few off them. in short races should have different strength but through the balance off numbers and lack off focus on anything everything has turned out to just be the same, its a question off math with no uncertainties other than your lack off apm and ability to focus under stress; which are not things i personally enjoy being tested
I wonder if the modder can make it so that DT in BW don't give out the alarm when they 1 shot things. It would make BW DT stand out more than SC2 counter part.
Some matchups feel balanced. Others are completely one sided. Sc2 zerg vs Sc1 zerg is unplayable for the Sc1 zerg because banelings. Sc1 Terran vs Sc2 protoss is super bad for Sc1 Terran as well because adept + oracle(depots don't lift so the adept is super strong, sc1 marines also suck so oracles are super strong).
I finally figured out why I love watching Brood War casts but have basically zero interest in SC2 multiplayer. It's because BW kept the multiplayer basically the same as the campaign, barring minor balance tweaks. The units and tech trees are the same though. Any knowledge you gain in the campaign can be transferred into an understanding of the multiplayer. SC2 multiplayer is basically a different game altogether. Take Terran for example. The core army that can get you through most of the campaign is a bio ball of Marines, Medics, and Marauders or Firebats depending on the mission. 2 of those core familiar units aren't even in multiplayer. You also lose Science Vessels, your core mech healing unit. You have to manually upgrade CCs to OCs or PFs. You have to click on tech labs to research upgrades. Nevermind entire new units like the Widow Mine, Cyclone, and Liberator. It's just such a different experience it's barely recognizable, and nothing you do in the campaign can really help you learn even PvP basics. I'd love to see a multiplayer mod that restricts each race to the units and tech trees available to you in the campaigns. Wouldn't be balanced, but it would be so much easier to watch and enjoy.
ya it's basically 1/2 of a dragoons attack which is bad to begin with, and also fires at a slightly slower rate. Although i'm pretty sure what he meant was an attack "ability" like seeker missile.
No changes to the spells of Brood War LOWKO! Never change. Because the units are strong, but SC2 players are different breed. And casters are better for Brood War in the new engine.
Can't wait for some BW zerg spellcasters action. With how much units tend to clump in SC2, plague, ensnare and dark swarm will be devastating and spawn broodlings with smartcast will also lead to some very dumb results. Ensnare, the least used of those, is a 25s long momaship slow that sticks to the units like revelation and goes off instantly.
Can a SCII Infestor control an SCI drone and make a hatchery? If they do, do he has to upgrade the SCII units separated of the SCI ones? Does anything get shared other than the creep?
SC was always my fav sf strategy game, and after all of these years back I still think that Protoss (my fav) are the most cool race with the best tech, powers and casts but also the most weakest. Never liked Zerg, I'm just not a bug type guy, so mostly I prefered to play with Terrans cuz it's extremelly hard to play effective with Protoss against Zergs cuz they're too fast in producing units and this problem is always displayed and obvious especially playing online. Also the game speed was always too fast wich makes the game less playable in general. Warcraft was way slower and much better to play and keep in control everything whats happening.
In the fight to become the top next-generation RTS, we now have Stormgate, Zero Space, and SC Brood War 😂
Broodwar will never be out of the running
There's no fight
The next gen rts was and seems it is starcaft 3 (sc 1 + sc 2)
Thge other garbage you named is irellevant starcraft knockoffs
@@ElGoogKOI know you're joking, but garbage is a little too aggressive. Let's not be hurtful to the new little guys.
@@ElGoogKO Lets not kid ourselves this mod is cool and all but it is horribly unbalanced compared to zerospace and stormgate. Going forward I see a majority of SC players going to zerospace since it is the spiritual successor sc2 more so than this mod and stormgate.
Beyond all reason to fun
"The arbiter counters everything that is not a defiler"
Artosis
Fun fact about mind control in Broodwar. Supply of each race was considered different kind of supply. So if you took control of enemy worker and start building up, You could build up to 600 supply (200 for each race if you play against 2 opponents with different races), making Protoss kind of busted xD
Sure you can, but it's something nearly impossible to execute properly
Because:
1) Snatched worker can die just immediately even by the hand of other workers around
2) Building up the whole infrastructure of another race is already a lot of time and money, and upgrades are even more costly, we aren't even talking 200 supply army here
3) Unless map is really huge, you might even get out of free space building all the stuff for all the races
I assume most you can do ususally is just reiforce your army with something that has tons of value for the cost. Like medics and seige tanks.
@@Saren-yc1rk i might remember this wrong but if you mind con a unit that already has upgrades and then you mind con the worker you don't have to make those upgrades since it just gives it to you, right?
@@glassdtomato4046 No Armor, Weapon, Shield upgrades, only ability unlocks iirc
There's also the fact that Zerg creep prevented any other races building from building on it so it had to be separated.
The more overpowered thing was that you could Recall sieged tanks (they did patch that out eventually because it was soooo broken, just send in a bunch of arbiters into the enemy base and suddenly a cloaked ball of death nuking everything into dust.)
“Nexus first into … forge?”
Hearing lowko express such confusion at basic brood war opening optimization is very funny.
For those not in the know maps in brood war have to be balanced around what can and can’t be done. Entrances to bases have to be wide but not so wide as to make it impossible to defend against a four pool. Most modern maps, including fighting spirit, are designed to allow for a wall off against early aggression in order to get a fast expansion up. For Protoss it’s usually gateway and forge with a single zealot to plug the hole. In brood war canons are very necessary to defend against a wide variety of early Zerg rushes.
Good ol times
i remember forge first being common for a while in sc2 as well. It wasn't until LOTV that they completely fell out of favor except for cannon rushes.
no +3 melee and no adrenal glands was painful for how much lings and ultras he made.
Yea I was looking at that the entire time lol, could have been a very different game if he spent some of those floating resources on his melee upgrades sooner
Shuttle speed?
@@thijsjong what about it?
SC2
Psionic Storm deals 80 damage in the target area in small packets over 2.85 seconds, and hits both air and ground units. It injures friendly units caught in the area of effect of 1.5
SC Brood War
Inflicts total 112 damage to all units within a target area over 3 seconds (14 damage in 8-frames intervals, starting from the 16th frame after cast, resulting in 8 damage instances over 64 frames).
Storm in SC2 always bothered me because it never felt like a truly dire situation. In BW, if you even see a HT you run 😂
I'm pretty sure it covered a much larger area in SC1 too.
@@Rikard_Nilsson area 1,5 is pathetic. SC2 storm feels so underpowered.
The thing I really love about this mod is that it's basically following in the footsteps of Command and Conquer 3 & Kane's Wrath and what that game did with sub-factions. Which added a whole lot more depth and choice and playstyle differentiation to that game. I mean, there will arise a need to balance some things eventually, when the meta is more understood, but even the concept of having SC2 engine and 6 factions to choose from.. that's undeniably refreshing and exiting and can only be a good thing for both games.
It was so stupid even back in Brood War but I would love to see the OG Banelings: Infested Terrans
"Live for the swarm"
-The living nuke called Infested Terran.
I seem to recall them moving really fast too.
@@rjmaxx1258 yeah they did 500 damage and moved like as fast as spider-mines.
"I don't see how zerg counters maelstrom and stasis"
SC2 ultra being immune to both: am I a joke to you?
Huh, I didn't know that
The issue I see with that is that essentially P1vZ2 is just the Zerg rushing to Ultras
@@WolfgangGaming-xq5rm isn't rushing the counter for an endgame tier unit kind of a bad idea?
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz p2 would have more answers to z2 Ultras but p1? not really ... p1 more or less has to play dragoon+templar+zealot+reaver
... carrierrush is expensive and z2 very likely will have answers to that ...
Stasis would work on Ultra, not maelstrom.
REAVER REAVER REAVER REAVER REAVER
RIVO RIVO RIVO RIVO RIVO
reaver >>>>>>>>>> disruptor
i know its hard work to make custom assets but i would love to see a brood war star style photon cannon.
those things are sick.
The whac-a-mole cannons.
The bottlecaps of death
They'll get there eventually I'm sure, they only just released BW overlord and muta models.
33:58 The sacrificial Reaver to distract the broodlings. Wow.
Loving the SC: Evo content, Lowko. Keep up xD
YES please do more sc1 vs sc2 vids.
Lowko: "More StarCraft Evolution?"
Everyone here: "Yes please"
Edit: You mention at 25:05 that Arbiter does not have an attack which is incorrect. At least in Brood Wars they had an attack and still had in Legacy of the Void campaign. Unless the mod creator tweaked it to remove the Arbiter attack.
funnily enough the arbiter actually attacks while lowko was talking about it
They've always had an attack in all variations. In SC1 though, its attack is a pitifully weak one that is on the level of ladder SC2 High Templars, of 10 damage of Explosive type.
Translates into 5 damage to small, 7.5 on medium, and 10 on large.
He said the Arbiter does not have an attack *spell* - i.e. an ability that does damage (like Psi Storm or Fungal Growth).
this mod has really peaked my fancy for starcraft again.
Right? Me too
“Never seen this match up yet”, literally streamed it before) love you man. Getting old sucks.
don’t gotta do him like that man
14:00 what a beautiful "Artosis Pylon"
I haven’t played or watched StarCraft since maybe 2017 but I’ve recently started watching your videos again; very happy to see you’re still at it Lowko!
Lowko, the Arbiter does have an attacking ability. It has the same attacking ability as the dragoon, but it's just too slow.
It's not the same as the dragoon, it deals half as much damages. And dragoon DPS is already not that great.
"Attacking ability" refers to an ability/spell that deals damage, which the Arbiter never had. What you're referring to is usually just considered a "basic attack" or "right-click" in most game casts
I've been saying it since this trend to play this mod started, that more players need to start using the brood war spells and finally, someone did!
Now I wanna see some sc1 Terran using lockdown vs sc2 Terran mech/protoss mech (sc1/2).
the sole reason why Terran bio units (marines & medics) are never used against Protoss in SC1 was Reavers and Psionic Storms, spells were nasty back then
I think SC1 spells are more powerful for a few reasons such as them being balanced for a game that has much more challenging unit control. Like... Storm damage doesnt stack, and if you're not up on your control, you'll accidentally waste A Lot of templar energy accidentally telling all of them to storm the exact same area. Meanwhile SC2 Storm is much more user-friendly thus energy efficient, so SC2 reducing its damage and duration seems very reasonable in that context.
Thanks for the video, Lowko. Can never get enough of this.
I hope you cast more of these normal competitive games are nice but this is a breath of fresh air and new entertainment thank you lowko
Wow this is what SC2 toss should have been.
No warp gate or mothership (death ball) gimmicks. Just solid units and abilities.
sc2 toss exactly its just a selection of cheeses like a charcuterie board. there's little solid reliable units. high templar are okay but not as good as sc1. mass stalkers with some immortals and a couple colossi. or go skytoss. those are your options for a somewhat reliable army. even then 4/5 will die to terran bioball. if you survive that, you're against vikings and thors+siege.
Honestly one of the reasons I really enjoy your StarCraft content is because you use clean language and I don’t have to worry about hearing you swear. ❤ I appreciate your efforts and love your content!
I love these SC2 vs SC1. Keep them coming!
31:38 "that was she said" hahahahahah i get that reference Michael Scott xD
if a barcode player prefers the armour upgrade instead of the weapon upgrade it is 100% Byun
More starcraft evolution please, it has reinvigorated my interest in starcraft
10:20 Ah yes, the control group Dark Archon walking right into the middle of your own storms and the enemy army because you tried casting without energy… I do not miss this.
Yea, that was a big discussion point around early WOL days.
The way units stack up in SC2 makes AOE insanely strong.
Siege tanks used to deal full 80 damage to both light and armored units in SC2, that was nerfed heavily, a line of tanks would blast zealots from the AOE alone.
Storm was nerfed aswell.
The deathball meta that followed the nerfs to AOE damage was the first thing that made BW veterans realise it was not gonna be the same, some quit at that point and went back to BW.
More starcraft Evolution? Hell yeah!
4:04 First of all, in this version of a mod you *can* see BW on BW, I've seen couple of games like that. Secondly, there are 2 other versions of this mod, although not activly supported, from the devs comments on *some* of the videos (Also, I don't remember the names of other versions, so I will give summary descriptions of them):
First one is what I call "More Balance edition", because it features more balance changes, aswell as completly new units and upgrades; Second one is purely Starcraft 1/Brood War in Starcraft 2 - no Sc2 races and *most* mecanics from Starcraft 1 are present, such as highground miss chance.
about 20 years ago I was playing one of the big money maps and went scouts. had about 3 dozen when my opponent scouted them. He mocked me called me a noob. and challenged me to attack him. So I flew around to the back side of his base and destroyed his mining before he could get his goliaths back to his base. The goliaths moved in single file through his base so he couldn't bring them in any significant numbers. Scouts had their place.
Very true. Scouts can be good when you have a stupid amount of them and can maneuver them around an enemy ground army especially. The thing is your oppenent has to be pretty bad in the first place for you to ever have 3 hotkeys of them in the first place.
@@leifkhas7425 This is really only possible on big money maps. when you have almost unlimited minerals and gas it becomes a much more viable thing. In addition it was a 3 vs 3 so there was plenty going on.
Keyword: big money maps. for those 3 scout groups you could have 2 carrier groups. unless you were purely going against an air army, you'd always choose the carriers. with a couple arbiters splashed in.
My favorite SC unit in my game is the reavers, so if I see one, I click.
These games have made me go back and watch your play through of sc1 again lmao
When I saw how similar the Stasis VFX and Sentry fields look, the first thing that popped to mind was to break it with Ravager biles.
Loving these games! Fun to see the old vs the new!
Maelstrom is basically old fungal growth with no projectile that also prevents attacking.
In combination with storm beats everything except ultras.
32:55 "You wanna see if I've got the minerals?"
more starcraft evolution? YES PLEASE!
I think the SC2 spellcasters would benefit from a little more rock paper scissors interaction.
The only 2 existing interactions they have that I can think of is the range of feedback (vs ghost and/or vipers) and the neural a ghost to emp the whole group.
I image a setup where EMP and Guardian Shield could have an interaction. And maybe in the case of this mod maybe dark swarm? Where EMP gets lower impact under the shield or they cancel eachother on contact or something.
I think we shouldn't do a straight up nerf or massive change to any of the spellcasters because it'll feel terrible. But adding interactions will just make the game more dynamic and fun.
Spells in BW were game changing and mandatory for your army late game especially. SC2 Had just broken spells like infested terran from the infesters that could carry a game its self.
Bw had deflinars that had dark swarm, and the red goo, which will literally make your ground army UNSTOPPABLE. high templars and the archons with mind control, psi storm, maelstorm which could Literally WIPE OUT ANY ARMY. Arbitars which would cloak thousands of carriers and air units, then recall mass reavers in your base, while freezing your WHOLE ARMY in place......
Terran had all the counter tools spells like EMP shockwave, Energy shields, Irradiate (poison ability that works against all bio... and lockdown which could help against protoss army alot.
Every race in SCBW had a spell that was broken, or could counter any other race. They all had broken abilities that made them soo good. But ive always thought zergs had the CHEAPEST abilities in BW, while protoss just had all the CHEESE abilities... Terran was just overly technical.
I use to play alot in my childhood days. Played alot of 1v1 on non money maps and money maps, and a shit ton of UMS. i lived on SC BW.
Man, I kinda hope that the Brood War archons in this mod get their attack animations reworked. I loved how beefy their attacks looked in SC1
I wish you kept the original player colors during these. I know it's easier to cast when the colors are distinct but there's such nice variety in the colors and it's a bit shame we keep seeing the same red & blue all the time. Great vids always though!
I want to see Serral play SC1 Zerg in the future match ups 😁
This mod looks freaking amazing... I would love to see a "mixture" of both though. Old zerg with the new creep mechanics, old protoss with the new warping mechanics, and old terran with reactors/techlabs.
Kind of the old units with the new mechanics (the flying queen spreading creep would be weird, tbh)
Im just waiting to see the infested command centers for the Old banelings lol
that was actually a ridiculessly cool game. damn protoss need their good combo abilities back, and Z need their big scary monsters etc.. it looks damn cool.
a ttw SC mod could be awesome :P
Plz do more SC Evo. It feels like a whole new game w all the new matchups
The final clash was so epic
I'm really hoping we get a SC1 Zerg game; I wanna see how absolutely bonkers the Defiler/Queen is!
Finally protoss feels stable and powerful again.
By my knowledge, the Arbiter does have an attack ability though. @25:07
as i expected in game even you have large base or territory tactics always is the key
please keep the SC2 Evo content coming!
The spells in bw are stronger simply because there are less of them. Also, casting spells in bw was far more difficult. If you selected multiple casters and cast a spell, ALL the casters would cast that spell. So you would build a small number of casters to augment your army to make it easier to keep them spread out. Deathballing in bw was basically never done and major fights would be engaged at multiple points across entire maps with a stream of units.
Compared to maelstrom and stasis, seems ghost's lockdown is way less obnoxious. Lockdown can only do mechanical units, terran don't have a big AOE that hits both ground and air follow up usually. Although I always find lockdown very hard to deal with.
In Brood War if you can get away with it going Nexus first is a very strong build Mini almost always goes for it in ASL matches if he can. The combination of Maelstrom and Storm is soo good Best destroyed Action in their round of 8 match during ASL S15. I also think Lowko needs to cast the Action vs Sn0w during the SC1 Vs SC2 Supermatch.
Malestorm into Psi-storm is my favorite. Ah nostalgia ^_^
Brood War vs SC2 is so interesting. Brood War lacks so many units compared to SC2.
Gateway for Broodwar is 4 units, for SC2 its 6. Dragoons dont have an active ability. Zealots don't. Sentry is a whole new spellcaster. Adept is another active extra unit.
When you build a robo facility you get 3 units in SC2 vs 1 in Brood War. Brood War requires a building for every new unit: Observatory, Robotics Bay
Same for Terran, Academy for Firebat + research instead of a techlab/reactor
Meanwhile Zerg do still get the whole building unlocks new things with Baneling Next, but ravager doesn't require it.
It's very interesting how Bloated SC2 is and how it incorporated elements from warcraft 3 to the starcraft universe with all the new active spells and side units.
Bloated? i think bw actually lacks funcionality in those early mid game units and it shows. SC2 races seem to have much more harrasing possibilities and mobility compared , even if their units seem on average weaker in head on combat.
Broodwar had a lot of active spells, that didnt start in WC3. I mean the science vessel, queen, arbiter, etc. are all about those; not sure what you mean by side units; do you mean free units, tech req units, or something similar to hero units?
@@bloodydove5718 broodwars spellcasters were specific seperate units like the Warcraft 2 spellcasters. But in sc2 you get more active abilities on every unit. Which is something that started in Warcraft 3. Charge for zealots in sc2 vs movespeed increase in BW or Raiders in Warcraft 3 having ensnare and ghouls having Canabalize. Which is somewhat similar to basically all Stargate and Gateway units having abilities to press.
Stasis might need a nerf, but not a big one. Scouts definitely need a big buff. I would prefer to leave Dark Archon alone, Maelstrom is powerful, but it only works on bio, and SC2 Ultras are immune to it, so Zerg does have an answer to it. I think the transition to Broodlords was a mistake, he should have stuck with Ultras!
Yo great video! Also arbiters do have attack of their own, its just quite weak
SC1 Psi Storm is 112 damage over 2.97 seconds - 14 damage per second!
Dark Archons do theoretically counter Vipers - assuming that the variables stayed the same, they have a range of 10 on their Feedback compared to the Vipers' range of 9 on Abduct. Also, SC1 Feedback's damage is 1-to-1, instead of the halved damage of SC2. There could be shenanigans with unit size and cast time, though, so I dunno if it'd really work out in the Dark Archon's favor.
I think that the answer to Ultralisks is to drop DTs on the Cavern.
yep. As a SC1 player who went into playing SC2, I was somewhat dissapointed with the new psi storm I tho not at all surprised. In SC1, if you see a HT you run until you can kill it from range, always. It was very powerful, especially when BW came out and now you have maelstrom. Tho you can always spawn brood it with a queen or irradiate it with science vessel.
It would be funny if the Protoss 1 mind controlled a Zerg 2 drone while the Zerg 2 mind controls a Protoss 1 probe making it a really cursed game.
I was kinda hoping to see some defiler swarms over those ultralisks or a plague on the enemy army.
YES, more StarCraft Evolution!!!
oh, I totally forgot about the different way to spread creep in BW, lol
and....ah, the SC1 DT attack sound :D
25:03
Lowko: obviously the Arbital doesn't have a attacking ability of its own
Me: it attacked just before you said that, lol
*lowko blindness strikes again*
no attacking "ability" aka, the arbiter doesn't have the raven's seeker missile.
You know that barcode has never played Broodwar Toss before with that Reaver play
storm in SC2 in WOL was like this but they nerf it bc it was too easy for P to smart cast it, so it was nerfed to what it is now days
storm in brood war did 112 damage over 8 ticks and it ticks once ever .33s (starting 0.67s after the spell is cast is the first tick)
(taken from liquidpedia)
In the UK tribunal is pronounced tribe-you-null, I've never heard it pronounced trib
Same for every English speaking country. Lowko is European.
Previously one of the theoretical explanations for SC2's Storms getting damage nerf was that SC2 units are more clumped than SC1.
However with this mod, it would seem that SC1's Storms are objectively better than SC2's.
SC1 storm are better in every way than SC2 storm. The only exception is it is more difficult to micro a HT, and if you have all your HT selected they will all storm unlike in SC2 which is a huge waste of energy, but honestly that is just a huge noob error.
Lingo comment: hello Lowko, your guess about the different pronunciations of "Tribunal" is correct, as far as I can tell. TRAI for Americans, TRI for Brits (only as far as language standards go, of course).
interesting. I am American, but never heard either Americans or British pronounce it (as I played SC1 before discord was a thing) so I ended up guessing it the British way.
every time zealot get leg enhancement upgrade, I keep imagine they just wear taller platform shoe. So technically they run faster from having longer leg.
26:54 problem is they are core off all armies and only P should have many spellcasters off different types with huge impact. terran should only have nukes,emp and armor missile; stuff where adding more doesnt do much, zergs should be basically spellcaster free; with their spellcasters more like harassing units like plague cast, the kill twin unit spawn spell, etc. where again massing them is no more effective than having a few off them.
in short races should have different strength but through the balance off numbers and lack off focus on anything everything has turned out to just be the same, its a question off math with no uncertainties other than your lack off apm and ability to focus under stress; which are not things i personally enjoy being tested
I think that if you have BWP vs SC2Z, you can both mind control and neutral parasite the other, and technically play BWP,SC2Z mirror matchup
More Starcraft Evolution? More Starcraft Evolution!!
I wonder if the modder can make it so that DT in BW don't give out the alarm when they 1 shot things. It would make BW DT stand out more than SC2 counter part.
They should play this mod for the tournaments. Players can choose sc1 or sc2. It’ll add an element of surprise.
they already did play it in a small tournaments and invite a bunch of BW players to join.
I dedicate this game to the one singular Protoss Scout, The One Scout! ♥
24:55 - Don't you mean the Ravens look like Terran Arbiters?
Some matchups feel balanced. Others are completely one sided. Sc2 zerg vs Sc1 zerg is unplayable for the Sc1 zerg because banelings. Sc1 Terran vs Sc2 protoss is super bad for Sc1 Terran as well because adept + oracle(depots don't lift so the adept is super strong, sc1 marines also suck so oracles are super strong).
Can we see some zerg gameplay ? Especially how defilers plague work on marine bio sc2
Has there been many sc1sc2 mirror matches? Would be interesting to see how BW protoss holds againts sc2 protoss
I finally figured out why I love watching Brood War casts but have basically zero interest in SC2 multiplayer. It's because BW kept the multiplayer basically the same as the campaign, barring minor balance tweaks. The units and tech trees are the same though. Any knowledge you gain in the campaign can be transferred into an understanding of the multiplayer.
SC2 multiplayer is basically a different game altogether. Take Terran for example. The core army that can get you through most of the campaign is a bio ball of Marines, Medics, and Marauders or Firebats depending on the mission. 2 of those core familiar units aren't even in multiplayer. You also lose Science Vessels, your core mech healing unit. You have to manually upgrade CCs to OCs or PFs. You have to click on tech labs to research upgrades. Nevermind entire new units like the Widow Mine, Cyclone, and Liberator. It's just such a different experience it's barely recognizable, and nothing you do in the campaign can really help you learn even PvP basics.
I'd love to see a multiplayer mod that restricts each race to the units and tech trees available to you in the campaigns. Wouldn't be balanced, but it would be so much easier to watch and enjoy.
At least the cost for scouts is reduced from 275/150 to 250/100.
I'm not sure if it was 150 or 200 gas earlier in BW.
Actually SC1 arbiters do have an attack, it just looks like a dragoon projectile, also it kind of sucks.
ya it's basically 1/2 of a dragoons attack which is bad to begin with, and also fires at a slightly slower rate. Although i'm pretty sure what he meant was an attack "ability" like seeker missile.
@LowkoTV the only counter to Stasis is by using the Restore ability by Broodwar Medics, but even then you can only Restore one by one.
No changes to the spells of Brood War LOWKO! Never change.
Because the units are strong, but SC2 players are different breed. And casters are better for Brood War in the new engine.
Arbiters do actually have an attack. It's not very strong, but they do have it
So the mad men remade Fighting Spirit indeed XD
oh man, Dragoon is one of best-looking unit in SC1. Was so disappointed when blizzard change them to stalkers....
Can't wait for some BW zerg spellcasters action. With how much units tend to clump in SC2, plague, ensnare and dark swarm will be devastating and spawn broodlings with smartcast will also lead to some very dumb results.
Ensnare, the least used of those, is a 25s long momaship slow that sticks to the units like revelation and goes off instantly.
We did, a few days ago. True played BW Zerg against SC2 Terran. He never used Defilers though, but he did mass Queens once.
10:10 that would make this ZvBP into a ZBPvZBP.
Can a SCII Infestor control an SCI drone and make a hatchery? If they do, do he has to upgrade the SCII units separated of the SCI ones? Does anything get shared other than the creep?
Maestro storm sounds alot like funkar parabomb. Zerg casters got the good stuff
SC was always my fav sf strategy game, and after all of these years back I still think that Protoss (my fav) are the most cool race with the best tech, powers and casts but also the most weakest.
Never liked Zerg, I'm just not a bug type guy, so mostly I prefered to play with Terrans cuz it's extremelly hard to play effective with Protoss against Zergs cuz they're too fast in producing units and this problem is always displayed and obvious especially playing online.
Also the game speed was always too fast wich makes the game less playable in general. Warcraft was way slower and much better to play and keep in control everything whats happening.
Oh lowko you are so funny I already clicked the like button
YES MORE PLEASE