@7:14 The arri image right out of camera is just insane. Great you can punch into the RED, it also looks like it will take several grading steps to get even close to the ARRI image.
It does, but I want to buy a great cinema camera and I think the RED Raptor makes much more sense, + I think that 8k is future proofing more for the future. Same reason I think to buy the Leitz Thalia lenses with 60mm image circle, so if in future we have something like Hasselblad sensors in consumer cinema cameras(not only Alexa 65) it will still work
I could not see much difference in resolution between the Red raptor 8k and the Arri when the files are cropped. The Arri files are still usable from what I can see!
I actually think that the RED is much cleaner. But I'm not anti ARRI, I just think it's a bit overpriced even considering the amazing quality and reliability
@@ronbackal It is overpriced. But so is RED. That's what happens when you're at the top. Think of them as the Rolls Royce and Bentley of the camera industry.
Makes more sense to rent multiple cheaper cameras than getting a single cam and punching in. I think 6k is plenty for reframing. The Alexa and Canon C500 don't have compressed RAW due to the patent issue(or very light compression on the Canon). That is really what makes the RED stand out in that regard. ARRI with compressed RAW would be amazing. I've never ran into an issue editing 444 or not being able to color it properly. That said you guys are right dealing with 8k in post is no longer an issue, runs just as good as ARRI Raw 4k, at least REDraw.
"red RAW Files sizes are way way smaller than the others" True, but let's not forget, that red holds a patent which is very debatable, which prevents every other manufacturer to implement the any similar kind of compression to their raw files in order to compress it. It's basically a monopoly and red does not shy away from sueing their competitors. So basically fuck red and their monopoly. Imagine how it would benefit the market to have competitors having the same opportunity. Btw the arri raw and red RAW looked basically the same, to me - I don't know how much RUclips killed the detail with compression...
First, is this a RED Raptor commercial? Anyway, as for 8k being too much. They said the same thing about 4k, and to an extent, HD at one point. Cameras used to tax computer, but current computers have gotten exponentially more powerful, and as shown can handle the footage quite satisfactorily.
That’s exactly why we work with the Raptor, it’s the high image quality paired with the flexibility in post. The Arri looks very good too, but you can not crop as much and change your image in post in the same way! The Raptor is a versatile Camera and the RED Codec has the lowest databases of all manufacturers.
Hopefully in a future video we can line up more options. I did a two week shoot for Netflix with 2 Venice 1s. All interviews. Shooting 4K s35 6:5 and I think we filled up 60tb. It was beefy. Even in 4K and that was the middle compression. ST I believe.
@@NorthwestCameraCo Oh interesting! I was considering buying Sony Venice 2, but the cost was really prohibitive, what you talked in the video about the cost of media for ARRI, also for Venice - it's 4,000 per 1TB ! Pretty crazy.. So I think to settle for RED Raptor because it looks amazing. But maybe you know something I don't - I wondered why still it seems that RED is not as accepted in the higher echelons as Sony and ARRI. What are the factors for that? Thanks :-) great video
Год назад+1
This is super useful 🔥 Thanks for the time you took to inform the worldwide film community
The old mini lfs dynamic range is much better than every Red Camera or Sony Venice. The new Alexa 35 dynamic range is much more better than the mini lfs. The new reveal color science is a whole new level compared to the old, which was better than reds. ArriRaw is so much data, because there is no compromise in quality, redraw is lossy compressed raw and the quality really depends on the ratio... But if you need to crop in 200%, than 8k might be yours
It’s also worth mentioning the cropping of the image becomes significantly harder when using anything but a clean modern lens, if you add diffusion or use lenses with less resolving power for creative reasons cropping in is not a great idea, so while a super cool workflow for some productions it’s definitely not a one size fits all solution
As an long time Alexa user, I just recently begin to use more red especially the raptor. many of my project right now needs significant cropping( 16-9 crop to 9-16). I am just begin to gravity towards the RED. But for the filmic look and Horizontal delivery, I use Arri exclusively.
@@JoshSmith-ct3fi its pretty common since lot of time the AD was shot in horizontal but there are many platform needs to be present like tik tok & instagram and different size of retail screen. I will say 10/10 of my project needs a vertical version of it
The lf doesn't for for 2000 grand in LA. I saw one ad that got close but it included 6 Arri master primes. If you have lenses you can get a day or weekend for less than 500.
This is mostly an average rate based on list prices at rental houses across the country. Every place is different and you can score some super cheap deals on sharegrid in LA and other markets. But 2k/day factors in camera, media, batts etc.
This just feels like a RED infomercial. What are the record times for raw vs raw? And I appreciate the value of having some crop flexibility in post, but if you need to do a 3 or 4x crop you're doing something wrong.
There are many jobs where RED is the best tool for the job, but its 2023 and there are still quite a few producers who here 8k and think it's going to cripple their post team. This is just for people to send to them as an educational piece to show that 8k and above is nothing to fear today with the cheap computing power thats available.
I think it doesn't necessarily! You can have high bitrate of garbage data. Also the sensor quality determines the image quality. But the more data you have, you technically can have more color information, more shades of color, and more contrast in the image. I looked today again at some sample image from Hasselblad X1D 50C from their website. It's so sharp! You can zoom in into the model picture pixel by pixel and see all details on her eyes. But the image is 102 MB, so I ran the computation and it's with 30 frames per second a data rate of 11 TB an hour! That's why it's problematic too for video. For usable Cinema Cameras what I saw that was max data rate is Alexa 65 which can go up to 3.4 TB per hour, and Sony Venice 2 which can go up to 3.2 TB an hour, and 3 TB per hour for RED Raptor (I love numbers so I checked that 🙂)
A lot...in theory. But no single thing can tell the whole story. That's why Arri focuses on quality rather than resolution. Resolution is easy, but it doesn't guarantee a better image.
I know we all scale our videos at times but that has never been a key factor in buying a camera. As a Pro you know what you want so why don't you shoot it the way it's meant to be. Let's not forget, these are not vlogging cameras so not your run and gun camera....that's what the small mirrorless are for.
100% Agree. In general this is more of a video to show that a standard laptop can playback any files in real time from all the major manufacturers. I still get clients fairly often afraid to shoot RED or any high res (think venice 2 8k) because they are afraid of a heavy post workflow. So hopefully that is illustrated here. The camera that sits between the c500 and mini lf from a price perspective is an 8k camera that is rather good. We shouldn't be afraid to shoot on it because of its resolution anymore. And as an added benefit, if you needed to crop in the 8k footage handles it rather well. :) Thanks a ton for taking the time to watch the video!
Very informative. As a owner of both the c500 mark ii and Red v raptor I conclude to your findings. There just isn't much out there that tops the v raptor for scaling quality.
@@coisaacs I’m totally happy with the image quality on talking heads. I tend to find my contrast ratio and light accordingly. I have matched the two cameras several times.
Every camera has to have some form of raw just to make it viable. Just keep in mind that prores comes in a variety of flavors. So like RAW from different cameras, they're not all created equally.
@@NorthwestCameraCo If by major productions you mean feature films then Alexa with RED as a distant second. Music videos are about the same, but add in Sony.
There is no perfect camera .Every image will be graded in post...practicality first. Only a great DP will know which camera to choose when its time comes.
Sorry bro, but zoomed in, the arri looked 100% usable like the RED image also. If you had placed them side by side without naming them and ask your viewers to pick which one was better, both images would be picked.
It's not really a video of which is better. With some clean up and up res, maybe the arri image holds up comparatively. We will be sharing the raw files also. It's very noticeable where the Arri and canon fall off compared to the raptor in this specific test. If you're watching content on a phone, none of this really matters in the end, but there is quite a bit of difference when you start looking over the raw files. To note also, this is more just looking at available cams for interviews at varying price points and theres a big gap in price between c500ii and Alexa Mini/Mini LF where the raptor fits really really well. You can also shoot 4k prores 444 4 on raptor, but you get less time per card than 8k raw in ELQ. So more educational than anything when balancing budgets and looking for options. All of these cameras are stellar. So you really can't go wrong with any of them.
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Red is definitely sharper But I still prefer the Arri when punched in yes it may be softer but, skin just looks more pleasing to my eye
I agree
@7:14 The arri image right out of camera is just insane. Great you can punch into the RED, it also looks like it will take several grading steps to get even close to the ARRI image.
That Arri image is AMAZING.
It does, but I want to buy a great cinema camera and I think the RED Raptor makes much more sense, + I think that 8k is future proofing more for the future. Same reason I think to buy the Leitz Thalia lenses with 60mm image circle, so if in future we have something like Hasselblad sensors in consumer cinema cameras(not only Alexa 65) it will still work
The post zoom guy is fired. I'm sea sick watching this
I could not see much difference in resolution between the Red raptor 8k and the Arri when the files are cropped. The Arri files are still usable from what I can see!
I actually think that the RED is much cleaner. But I'm not anti ARRI, I just think it's a bit overpriced even considering the amazing quality and reliability
@@ronbackal It is overpriced. But so is RED. That's what happens when you're at the top. Think of them as the Rolls Royce and Bentley of the camera industry.
The color science is unique, with Arri purported to be the best in the industry. I wholeheartedly agree.
amazing, all this work and no timestamps!
Makes more sense to rent multiple cheaper cameras than getting a single cam and punching in. I think 6k is plenty for reframing. The Alexa and Canon C500 don't have compressed RAW due to the patent issue(or very light compression on the Canon). That is really what makes the RED stand out in that regard. ARRI with compressed RAW would be amazing. I've never ran into an issue editing 444 or not being able to color it properly.
That said you guys are right dealing with 8k in post is no longer an issue, runs just as good as ARRI Raw 4k, at least REDraw.
I appreciated this topic and comparison. I felt distracted while watching with the frequent digital crash zooms. 😵💫
Two words: stop it.
"red RAW Files sizes are way way smaller than the others"
True, but let's not forget, that red holds a patent which is very debatable, which prevents every other manufacturer to implement the any similar kind of compression to their raw files in order to compress it. It's basically a monopoly and red does not shy away from sueing their competitors.
So basically fuck red and their monopoly. Imagine how it would benefit the market to have competitors having the same opportunity.
Btw the arri raw and red RAW looked basically the same, to me - I don't know how much RUclips killed the detail with compression...
Its not a monopoly, but they all have patents, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's how they make money.
First, is this a RED Raptor commercial? Anyway, as for 8k being too much. They said the same thing about 4k, and to an extent, HD at one point. Cameras used to tax computer, but current computers have gotten exponentially more powerful, and as shown can handle the footage quite satisfactorily.
That’s exactly why we work with the Raptor, it’s the high image quality paired with the flexibility in post. The Arri looks very good too, but you can not crop as much and change your image in post in the same way! The Raptor is a versatile Camera and the RED Codec has the lowest databases of all manufacturers.
if resolution is what you want and price then blackmagic olpf 12K is better with internal nd and screen built in
amazing video! hope to see this same test using Ursa 12K
Now that the 12k olpf version is out we are going to try to find one for testing.
the arri videos looking so good... I dont even know why.
Why did you skip the Canon? No punch in? No quality of image example? Why include it at all? Odd.
Also, keep in mind this isn't their flagship.
Great comparison.
Would've loved to also see a comparison with the Sony Venice's X-OCN codec.
Hopefully in a future video we can line up more options. I did a two week shoot for Netflix with 2 Venice 1s. All interviews. Shooting 4K s35 6:5 and I think we filled up 60tb. It was beefy. Even in 4K and that was the middle compression. ST I believe.
@@NorthwestCameraCo Oh interesting! I was considering buying Sony Venice 2, but the cost was really prohibitive, what you talked in the video about the cost of media for ARRI, also for Venice - it's 4,000 per 1TB ! Pretty crazy.. So I think to settle for RED Raptor because it looks amazing. But maybe you know something I don't - I wondered why still it seems that RED is not as accepted in the higher echelons as Sony and ARRI. What are the factors for that? Thanks :-) great video
This is super useful 🔥 Thanks for the time you took to inform the worldwide film community
Yeah, but the skin tones look like crap on the RED. Always feels like a desaturated image that has been colorized.
Don't exaggerate.
Would the same abilities to punch in and retain image quality apply to the Raptor S35 with the smaller sensor?
great video. Would love to see how Ursa12k and braw compares, considering its 7k$ camera
Now that the 12k with the OLPF is out, we are definitely going to test that in the future.
Very nice to see the comparisons. Would have also loved to see how the Sony FX9 6k held up.
Camera used to shoot talking head is FX9!
Also we didn’t choose to shoot the fx9 since it didn’t have an internal raw codec to test. But it performs similar to canons 422 10 bit.
would be great to download those files to test out the latiude between them!
Uploading all the raw files on google drive Monday. Email us for a link.
The old mini lfs dynamic range is much better than every Red Camera or Sony Venice. The new Alexa 35 dynamic range is much more better than the mini lfs. The new reveal color science is a whole new level compared to the old, which was better than reds.
ArriRaw is so much data, because there is no compromise in quality, redraw is lossy compressed raw and the quality really depends on the ratio...
But if you need to crop in 200%, than 8k might be yours
It’s also worth mentioning the cropping of the image becomes significantly harder when using anything but a clean modern lens, if you add diffusion or use lenses with less resolving power for creative reasons cropping in is not a great idea, so while a super cool workflow for some productions it’s definitely not a one size fits all solution
As an long time Alexa user, I just recently begin to use more red especially the raptor. many of my project right now needs significant cropping( 16-9 crop to 9-16). I am just begin to gravity towards the RED. But for the filmic look and Horizontal delivery, I use Arri exclusively.
@@xiaoyangjin2655 why do they need significant cropping?
@@JoshSmith-ct3fi its pretty common since lot of time the AD was shot in horizontal but there are many platform needs to be present like tik tok & instagram and different size of retail screen. I will say 10/10 of my project needs a vertical version of it
@@xiaoyangjin2655 so the arri alexa mini does horizontal?
Great job! Thank you!
Do you know what drives were used to playback?
The lf doesn't for for 2000 grand in LA. I saw one ad that got close but it included 6 Arri master primes. If you have lenses you can get a day or weekend for less than 500.
This is mostly an average rate based on list prices at rental houses across the country. Every place is different and you can score some super cheap deals on sharegrid in LA and other markets. But 2k/day factors in camera, media, batts etc.
Great breakdown! What camera do you guys use to film the in-studio content?
Varies a little bit but usually c500ii. We are gonna do a gear breakdown for what we use on our channel next week!!
This just feels like a RED infomercial.
What are the record times for raw vs raw? And I appreciate the value of having some crop flexibility in post, but if you need to do a 3 or 4x crop you're doing something wrong.
There are many jobs where RED is the best tool for the job, but its 2023 and there are still quite a few producers who here 8k and think it's going to cripple their post team. This is just for people to send to them as an educational piece to show that 8k and above is nothing to fear today with the cheap computing power thats available.
How would the Canon R5 8K RAW would look like against the red? Just being curious
Not nearly as good as the R5C
How would the bit rates have an effect on the image?
I think it doesn't necessarily! You can have high bitrate of garbage data. Also the sensor quality determines the image quality. But the more data you have, you technically can have more color information, more shades of color, and more contrast in the image.
I looked today again at some sample image from Hasselblad X1D 50C from their website. It's so sharp! You can zoom in into the model picture pixel by pixel and see all details on her eyes. But the image is 102 MB, so I ran the computation and it's with 30 frames per second a data rate of 11 TB an hour! That's why it's problematic too for video.
For usable Cinema Cameras what I saw that was max data rate is Alexa 65 which can go up to 3.4 TB per hour, and Sony Venice 2 which can go up to 3.2 TB an hour, and 3 TB per hour for RED Raptor (I love numbers so I checked that 🙂)
A lot...in theory. But no single thing can tell the whole story. That's why Arri focuses on quality rather than resolution. Resolution is easy, but it doesn't guarantee a better image.
I know we all scale our videos at times but that has never been a key factor in buying a camera. As a Pro you know what you want so why don't you shoot it the way it's meant to be. Let's not forget, these are not vlogging cameras so not your run and gun camera....that's what the small mirrorless are for.
100% Agree. In general this is more of a video to show that a standard laptop can playback any files in real time from all the major manufacturers. I still get clients fairly often afraid to shoot RED or any high res (think venice 2 8k) because they are afraid of a heavy post workflow. So hopefully that is illustrated here. The camera that sits between the c500 and mini lf from a price perspective is an 8k camera that is rather good. We shouldn't be afraid to shoot on it because of its resolution anymore. And as an added benefit, if you needed to crop in the 8k footage handles it rather well. :) Thanks a ton for taking the time to watch the video!
Any chance I could download a small snippet of raw from each of these cameras talking head that you shot?
Chad email us at nw camera and I’ll send a link over for google drive download on Monday.
Very informative. As a owner of both the c500 mark ii and Red v raptor I conclude to your findings. There just isn't much out there that tops the v raptor for scaling quality.
Are you happy with how the c500 image holds up against the red mostly for talking heads?
@@coisaacs I’m totally happy with the image quality on talking heads. I tend to find my contrast ratio and light accordingly. I have matched the two cameras several times.
What do u mean by scaling quality?
@@popcorndreamsmedia what do you mean by contrast ratio ?
Most ppl use prores with arri alexa mini not raw ...would playback on this macbook pro with alexa mini using prores be even smoother than arri raw ?
Every camera has to have some form of raw just to make it viable. Just keep in mind that prores comes in a variety of flavors. So like RAW from different cameras, they're not all created equally.
Arri looks like film.
Arri looks like film. RED looks like high quality youtuber video. Its clearer but looks nothing like film.
Which camera is used more for major production music videos ?
Mix of alexa and red. Raptor will probably become a favorite for 8K 120 and reframing potential
@@NorthwestCameraCo If by major productions you mean feature films then Alexa with RED as a distant second. Music videos are about the same, but add in Sony.
@@krane15 alot of alexa seem to be used for most major music videos
Which 1TB cards did you use for c500ii?
Feels kinda worthless to compare pro res 4444 to compressed media. Pretty biased number imo
There is no perfect camera .Every image will be graded in post...practicality first. Only a great DP will know which camera to choose when its time comes.
Davinci offers AI based upscaling
Sorry bro, but zoomed in, the arri looked 100% usable like the RED image also. If you had placed them side by side without naming them and ask your viewers to pick which one was better, both images would be picked.
It's not really a video of which is better. With some clean up and up res, maybe the arri image holds up comparatively. We will be sharing the raw files also. It's very noticeable where the Arri and canon fall off compared to the raptor in this specific test. If you're watching content on a phone, none of this really matters in the end, but there is quite a bit of difference when you start looking over the raw files. To note also, this is more just looking at available cams for interviews at varying price points and theres a big gap in price between c500ii and Alexa Mini/Mini LF where the raptor fits really really well. You can also shoot 4k prores 444 4 on raptor, but you get less time per card than 8k raw in ELQ. So more educational than anything when balancing budgets and looking for options. All of these cameras are stellar. So you really can't go wrong with any of them.
I wouldn't say it was unusable, but the RED was noticeably better.
Red fan boys did this video cause they hate how industry standard ARRI is lol. This is a joke.