Predestination
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- Опубликовано: 22 июл 2019
- Few topics in Christianity can cause as much disagreement, division, and concern as the doctrine of election. Even though I am more Calvinistic, I think that the central point that Arminians make is true: we do have freedom. Regardless of your position, we all must remember that this doctrine is not meant to be an abstract mental exercise. It should be a comfort because no Christian is outside the bounds of God's grace. This should spur us on to greater efforts in our evangelism.
This is very helpful, Dr. Moore. Thank you for the biblical explanation. I’m glad you pointed out that election is to motivate us to evangelize, not the opposite. Thank you for tackling what can be a touchy, difficult subject.
I really appreciate how you illuminate the issue of what predestination is and isn't. It is not something that should be divisive, but should be something that encourages Christians to follow the great commission. Thanks Dr. Moore!
That was one of the most graceful presentation of a doctrine that could be so divisive among Christians! You are definitely among my favourite voices among the TGC (along with Timothy Keller). It would be interesting to hear what you can say on the topic of Penal Substitution next :)
This is well said and well explained! Thank you!!!🙏
Can you talk about flag worshiping in the church?
Shori Sunagawa What is there to talk about? Does your church worship a flag?
Tallent's Travels Mine don’t but I know a lot of church that does it. Preaching with American Exceptionalism.
Shori Sunagawa OK, so you’re not talking about the literal worship of a flag or pledging allegiance to a flag, then? I didn’t know what you meant by flag worship.
Thank you for the thought provoking responses and comments to my first post. No rude or demeaning responses. We all know nothing that is posted on social media usually changes any ones minds. As a non-Calvinist we will just have to disagree. There are way too many verses that contradict that position. My Savior says whosoever will. By faith I did and it’s available to anyone. He died on the cross for everyone who chooses to except. God Bless each of you.
It's our finitude to understand this mystery.
Can you speak on Topic:whether Christian should love one another among themselves or They can love the people of the world, even though they are in enemy's kingdom?whether Biblical Love is only among believers only?Whether we shouldn't love our natural friends and blood relatives like Believers? Is there any degree of variation in loving believers and unbelievers?
You've laid out a fair middle road, in my opinion.
That was very confusing to me... 🤔
I've no doubt about the sincerity of Dr. Moore - nor his devotion to Christ our Lord.
But as a former Calvinist pastor (after graduating from seminary under the teaching of such as R.C. Sproul and J.I. Packer) I gradually came to see the tragic assumptions of Calvinism. Those assumptions are basically waved away, obscured and covered over - even brushed aside as not really important.
But they are fundamentally important because they express what you really, deeply, fundamentally believe about the nature of God as revealed in holy Scripture.
To the point: for Calvinists God's *essence* is NOT Love (it is more like raw sovereign power set on one preeminent goal: self-glorification at whatever cost) - and therefore He does NOT [truly or eternally] love all that He has created - even all who are fearfully and wonderfully created in His image - as Acts 17 puts it, "we are ALL His offspring". From this it is easy to develop further [false] beliefs like "limited atonement"... (It is very significant and telling that Calvin in his 2 volume Institutes NEVER quote 1 John, "God is Love".)
The "key" (for me) is to understand that there really ARE certain "elect" persons - but Romans 11 reveals that they are "first fruits" - implying there is a fuller harvest to come! Even of the hardened (the non-elect) Paul expressly states that they are NOT beyond hope!
" Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!" (Rom.11:11) - Why? Because "God is able" (v.23)
The "elect" are not elect for exclusive salvation - but also for service in bringing in the larger harvest (the fulness of the Gentiles and "all" Israel - Romans 11).
Paul only uses the word translated "lump" twice in Romans: 9:21 - "from the same lump vessels of honor and dishonor" AND 11:16 where the *entire lump* is made holy through the election and sanctification of the first fruits.
(see Paul speaking in an analogous way of the effect the believing spouse has on the unbelieving spouse and their children: 1 Cor.7:14)
The ultimate end and conclusion of Romans 9-11 must be kept in view - God desire to have MERCY ON ALL ❤
"For from Him, and through Him and TO Him are ALL things"
Richest Blessings!
wayne
I think you are misrepresenting the view of a large number of of non-calvinists, in part because you left a very important word out of Romans 8:29. You started off with "those he foreknew..." but the verse actually starts with "FOR whom he foreknew..." Whenever we see the word "for" we should go back and see what it is there for. In this case it is showing that Romans 8:29 is making the case for Romans 8:28. So, Romans 8:29 isn't telling these people something they didn't know but was reminding them of something that was obvious. How can this be if the verse it talking about God knowing the people Paul was writing to and carrying them through to glorification? It can't be. But it does make sense if "foreknew" refers to people God knew in times past. Paul is referring to the old testament saints like Elijah and Moses. Jesus hadn't died yet, so they weren't conformed to the image of his Son but predestined to be conformed. And even though the sacrifice hadn't taken place yet we see them on the mount of transfiguration. Paul is making the case that since we know that happened for them that the nature of God is that he will see those who love him now through as well.
If Paul is writing then Jesus has not only died but transcended up to heaven, Steven having seen Him standing at the righthand of God at the time of his stoning, when Paul was still Saul "the Christian killer".
I agree with you, I am a non-Calvanist, I believe that God provides us with true free will. God knows us better than we know ourselves and while that may FEEL as if there is predestination, we still can make the choice to fall. Look in 1 Samuel at King Saul. He was supposed to be the first and the last but his hubris got the better of him and God anoints David to become king 40 (ish) years later. King Saul walked HIMSELF out of his calling.
God dignifies us with free will, the power to make decisions of our own rather than having God or fate predetermine what we do. Consider what the Bible teaches.
God created humans in his image. (Genesis 1:26) Unlike animals, which act mainly on instinct, we resemble our Creator in our capacity to display such qualities as love and justice. And like our Creator, we have free will.
To a great extent, we can determine our future. The Bible encourages us to “choose life . . . by listening to [God’s] voice,” that is, by choosing to obey his commands. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) This offer would be meaningless, even cruel, if we lacked free will. Instead of forcing us to do what he says, God warmly appeals to us: “O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”-Isaiah 48:18.
Our success or failure is not determined by fate. If we want to succeed at an endeavor, we must work hard. “All that your hand finds to do,” says the Bible, “do with your very power.”(Ecclesiastes 9:10) It also says: “The plans of the diligent one surely make for advantage.”-Proverbs 21:5.
Free will is a precious gift from God, for it lets us love him with our “whole heart”-because we want to.-Matthew 22:37.
Doesn’t God control all things?
The Bible does teach that God is Almighty, that his power is not limited by anyone other than himself. (Job 37:23; Isaiah 40:26) However, he does not use his power to control everything. For example, the Bible says that God was “exercising self-control” toward ancient Babylon, an enemy of his people. (Isaiah 42:14) Similarly, for now, he chooses to tolerate those who misuse their free will to harm others. But God will not do so indefinitely.-Psalm 37:10, 11.
The Bible does not teach predestination. While God is all powerful and capable of seeing all possible things before they occur, we have free will do we not? Is it consistent with a loving God to condemn some to die in sin for no mis action? Why did Jehovah God forbid Adam and Eve from eating of the forbidden fruit if they had no choice but to do so? Regarding Acts 4:27, why should the predestination of one thing mean such for all? God commanded that Jesus must die, yes, but this does not mean that he did the same for all things? www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=2009252&srcid=share
I have seen predestination used by people to be very abusive. Seen people act like they are better than others. I am definitely not a full calvanist,but there are definitely not completely wrong
Double Talk. Not sure why you need to evangelize if Christ has already chose those who are going to be saved.
Michael Blades because we are called to do it. Cheerful obedience if you are a Christian
Well on this view the way that people who God has elected are saved is through the proclamation of the gospel. We are the means
Some Calvinists agree that there is no need to evangelize, but for others I think they evangelize out of the belief that no doing so would be an indication that they they aren't part of the elect. For others I think it is out of a belief that they are privileged to carry out the sovereign will of God in carrying the gospel to the elect.
Michael Blades Do you really want an answer, Michael?
Easy! The Great Commission says to. His people obey his commandments.
George clooney talking...