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Archery | Why Don't Olympic Archers Use Thumb Draw?
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- Опубликовано: 11 фев 2018
- A detailed discussion on the history of Olympic archery, why horse bows aren't used, and why the thumb draw gets the thumbs down.
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I would love to see an Olympic archery competition from horse back using traditional short bows. It's perhaps the one thing that could interest me enough to actually watch an Olympic event.
They still use thumb draw in competitive mounted archery
Check out the World Nomad Games! There are mounted and standing archery events using traditional bows and dress.
I would love to see that also, the crazy gadget archery of the Olympics makes little to no sense.
I agree start a petition lol
True true
Long Paragraph Ahead :
As a university archer, I have had quite a bit of freedom experimenting with multiple ways of shooting. Quite a few anchor points, multiple draw methods, draw finger combinations and grips.
I have no passion in scoring arrows, but I do enjoy shooting accurately. I shoot barebow, with a club bow for now, and will be moving on to a horsebow once the shipment arrives. With interests in various ways of shooting, and dimensions we university students usually overlook, I have found using thumb draw on a "wrong handed" club bow to be more enjoyable. The pistol grip isn't that much of a hindrance. It did ask for practise not to have arrows falling of the rest, but I got it quite alright after a few hours. Barebow archers usually anchor around their mouth, and therefore have their elbow way up. Being interested in the biomechs of archery, I had a look at this document www.pioneerarchers.com/Member%20Portal/Info/Biomechanics.pdf which led me to the following conclusion : the better aligned the top of your body is, the less stress on your shoulders, back and arms. I have empirically verified this hypothesis on a large sample of 1, but using thumb draw allows me to anchor as far as a far back compound anchor, under the back of my jaw. Not only does this mean my elbow and shooting arm is more aligned with my bow arm, this also means that my nock isn't next to my eye anymore, but that my eye is above my arrow while drawing. I get a more reliable horizontal idea of where the arrow is going, even if it isn't by far. Also, because the string flies in the opposite direction from mediteranean, I have no need for a bracer, which is rather nice.
I am a very casual spirited archer, in that I don't focus on ranking and comparison, and more on discovering new techniques.
The point I am making isn't that Olympic archers should use thumb draw (because why should they) but that thumb draw has some hidden perks : no face or arm slapping, larger choice of anchor point, longer draw length, better line of aim. Bare in mint, I'm not arguing it is superior, rather that it is different. It does have drawbacks as well : the weight of the bow on the sole thumb can be too heavy for someone with weak joints, or small fingers, and it might be uncomfortable to some. Also, finding both ressources and coaches knoweldgeable about thumbring in't the easiest thing.
Just a quick commentary on the "perks":
- Face / Arm Slapping: If done correctly, the Mediterranean style doesn't have this problem either.
- Larger choice of anchors: Possibly useful if you use different anchors for different purposes. Most archers don't need this variety.
- Longer draw length: Useful historically, not so much in modern day. Consistency of anchor > draw length.
- Better line of aim: Not exactly sure what you mean and how this is substantially better, or different, from Mediterranean.
Personally, I don't recommend either technique above the other. This is driven by the style of archery you choose, not the "perks" that come with a thumb or finger release.
NUSensei fair :D
NUSensei one question tho : if when done properly, string slapping doesn't occur, why wear a bracer ? Is it in case you do something weird during a shot ?
(No evil intent, genuine questioning)
Pretty much. You see a lot of experienced shooters forego a bracer.
Go to Malta Archery, The best explanations of thumbrings and their uses. Some of what you said is totally wrong.
I guess you will only see Thumb draw style if the international committee allows a standardized category for horse archery. :/
Nameles Ray That would be pretty rad
I wont lie, I'd watch that over Recurve any day.
Thanks for answering my question from Reddit in greater detail! I do hope to see Olympic horse archery one day.
That was a fascinating and captivating history lesson. Thank you.
FYI #shootlikeme: Gummi Gudjonsson - Iceland (S01E07). The thumb release has some accuracy and consistency issues for the level of accuracy in modern archery. It is not impossible to shoot with a thumb draw, it's just that there are no advantages for modern archery, he tried that as well :)
Horse archery in the Olympics would test any one
Thumb release is much more consistent/ precise even with little training. Just need to shoot right side of bow if your righty and left if your a lefty. Also it is much better for combat and moving shots as you stated cause the arrow can be knocked and drawn without falling off the shelf of the bow( or hand on horse bow)!
I like the simple and clear way in which this guy explains every detail
Cool video! I watch a lot of historical martial arts stuff (HEMA, etc.) and this video really interested me. I really enjoy the amount of info in this video; the breadth of context is awesome. Well done!
Very nice presentation NU, keep it coming. =)
Personally I found that the split finger draw only compounded the problem of true instinct shooting for me using my recurve and longbows. Mainly because I love short recurves and the 3 finger style gave me a "Pinch" effect which also effected my arrow flight, so I adapted my style of shooting to using 2 fingers under the knock below the arrow, and I make my own finger tab cut out of leather. With 2 fingers under the arrow there is nothing obstructing my view of the arrow flight when I cant my bow to the right at 2 o'clock and draw to the corner of my mouth. I basically shoot like Fred Bear (with the exception that Fred was left handed) I reversed that method and shoot with both eyes open. I don't hesitate, or hold at full draw before letting loose my arrow, it's all one continuous motion. I draw on my target, see my target, and when I reach full draw I let the arrow fly.............all in one motion. I think of it like pointing my left fist at what I want to hit and let my instincts take over. Hope that makes sense. It took me about 6 months of repetition before it finally felt right, but now it's just like riding a bicycle.
i use a 1.5m bow, therefore split-fingers doesn't cause pinching. Furthermore split finger allow me to stabilize arrow against the bow much like thumb draw (so canting my bow to any side won't drop the arrow), and I do shot instinctively with both my eyes open. Much like you, I took 1 year ++ to finally attain this level. But I do agree that split finger does interfere a bit with aiming since the index finger on top of arrow may obstruct view to some extent.
Great information my friend, good job
Thumb draw is more powerful (due to the inheritly longer draw at an equal anchor point)
And because of the ease of khatra (also makes the arrow much more silent due to not rubbing against the riser)
In personal experience, Mediterranean is more natural feeling and you achieve better accuracy (on a twin bow)
And thumb draw, has more oompf to the arrow impacting, khatra is also very fun to do.
So generally I'd say I enjoy thumb draw a little more.
(Feels nasty on your thumb joints at first tho)
Also, after only a few days your thumb draw groups start to look pretty good as well tbh.
Mediterranean might be more accurate for precision/competition shooting, but It doesn't mean thumb is inaccurate at all.
Excellent presentation !
I'm not an archer, but I find all of your videos incredibly interesting. I must've been an archer in a past life because I've always loved it any time I've had the chance, but I just haven't had the means to actually get into it. Your videos make me want to find a way to delve into not only archery, but the whole subculture of the sport and all of the history behind it as well. Phys-Ed was the only class I did worse in, in school, than history, but the historical aspects of your short lectures here are just brilliant. It's fascinating stuff. These videos are never boring, not even for a second.
Very educational. Thank you so much.
Well. I'm a traditional archer and I tried both right and left side of the bow with 3 finger draw, 2 finger draw and thumb draw. After few shots there isn't any difference in accuracy, but having the arrow on the right side of the bow actually makes it much easier to draw and I can use much heavier bows than shooting on right side of the bow :P And yes, after few attempts I can use mediterranean draw with the arrow on the right side. I think it's only a matter of training. Mongolian grip can be as accurate as mediterranean ;) In fact, most of middle age european drawings shows the archers shoot mediterranean draw on the right side, as an reenactor I've tried it and I've loved it ;)
@NuSensei, great videos Sir, very informative.
I posted to another of your threads regarding cross eye dominance.
I shoot thumb draw as Im left handed but right eye dominant. I can aim with my dominant (right) eye by lining up the target with the right edge of the bow while drawing with the left, with the arrow resting on the left hand side.
At some point soon Im going to experiment with shooting a modern right handed recurve bow ( arrow rest on the left) using the same thumb draw method - would love to have carbon fibre limbs:) I think thumb draw actually provides a cleaner release, but thats just my subjective theory.
It is possible to thumb draw in Olympic archery by placing thumb an inch under the arrow thus the arrow will stay at arrow rest.
And the hand is at more natural position when drawing as against mediteranian draw.
Exactly. It's how the Mongolians shoot.
@@gizmonomono yes, they also kiss it before releasing. Hahaha
I always learn from you. Thank you
You're welcome
Informative, thanks for sharing.
Thank you, very informative.
Nice video. If you want to use thumb release with an olympic bow you must use a lh bow if you are right handed, because tour own right hand is pushing your arrow to your left shoulder, if you do this you can be able to use thumb release in olympic archery and succed the archers paradox, I did it succefully. 😎
I think design of the bow has something to do with whether archers used Mediterranean or thumb draw too, longbows are drawn to a less acute angle than the bows traditionally used with a thumb draw. The more acute angle makes a single digit more effective for drawing the bow, while with a longbow there's more room for three fingers because the angle of the string doesn't become as sharp.
Nearly all of my experience (what there is of it) comes from using equipment from friends I was with or at a Ren Faire or similar. So I used something like a sloppy thumb draw a fair bit...because I used the equipment that was there and it works better that way if you're a lefty (right-handed bow made to be shot with arrow on the left side is literally the only equipment you get often).
Thought it might be fun to learn how to do things "right" so I've watched some of your videos; I guess if I want to do archery sometime I should get my own bow and do 3-finger grip instead.
Why don't you try the thumb draw with a left-handed olympic style bow? That should solve the problem of the arrow falling off the rest.
The grip would be very uncomfortable
It also has to do with the length of the arrow....I've read that in order to shoot long heavy war arrows on horseback, the steppe peoples needed to use the thumb draw, as the three-fingered draw does not allow for as long a draw length as the thumb draw does.
One of the questions that got answered without telling anyone and doing some research
Nice Video, I personally enjoy shooting with the thumb. But on modern bows I do have to use a left handed bow, Which works fine for me. thanks.
if you should use the thumb draw on a modern recurve bow, you can get a reverse bow aka, if you are a righthandshooter you get a leftybow and if you are a lefthandshooter you get a righty bow. personaly i am a righthandshooter and i use a lefty pse herritage razorbac takebown and it works just fine when practicing the thumb draw
Just a short note on not packing your car the night before you leave,pack in when you are about to leave. Having said that my PSE Stinger compound bow and a Yamaha recurve with a blue allaminium riser and white limbs in a Cammo sock, which was my late fathers,ridge line bowbag,backpack(70 lt red Timberwolf) with everything in it ,jumper pack and assorted tools,all stolen from the back seat of my car.lowlifes,please can everyone keep an eye open for these,more sentimental value,thanks in advance guys
Hi Nu!
I personally shoot a RH ILF style bow with thumb draw (overdraw 32.5" draw)
Because I shoot with the arrow on the left side, I've learned not to push the arrow and I'm quite good.
I wanted to try target archery but I feel I'll be disqualified anywhere I go
I use a thumb glove too.
Is there anything in the rules that state I need to have an anchor point on my face? Or more specifically, does my hand need to touch my face?
With my current form my hand is 2" behind my head lmao
Edit: nevermind it looks like they defined it a while back and I would in fact be immediately disqualified. Very disappointing
Sensei, i'm anoob. could you please make a video on nock points?
Tied ones, brass ones, with T gauge, with arrow, with feeling, or even with star alignment within the universe
I'm buying a new bow and a bit confused
This might be news for you, but if you use a left-handed bow, thumb draw will work quite nicely ... Hey there's even a video of an archer (Iceland or so ?) on the World Archery channel that shoots a recurve bow with a reverse draw ... Oh yeah, thumb ring is the same finger protection as a tab ...
I dont do archery but your videos are very good
Great video.
9:20 One advantage of thumb release I can think of: thumb is only 1 finger, Mediterranean release requires 3 fingers, which means 2 more fingers to mess up your release.
Dude! Left-handed riser with a right-handed grip!
Question. If I could get a compound bow that can be set up to my draw length and they draw weight can start off light and I work my way up in draw weight is that a good option besides recurve the shop I went to had only two recurve bows.
Compound is the best. You can shoot it like a recurve if you want to, you can even shoot it instinctive and it just works as a better bow. The only drawback is that you can't restring it without equipment and it's more fragile to drops and possibly stuff getting into the cams.
Hi, I have modify a right handed bow making a window on the other side (left) so I could shoot with my right hand Thumb Draw (with out ring) and honestly is much easier to hit target than mediterranean release. I think that at the end there are less fingers involved, so less errors.
I pinch only the arrow with my thumb and finger and not even touch the string. What about that? With the 3 finger configuration i find it just moves the arrow away from the bow. I'm all round amateur and i don't know much but the pinching only arrow technique is most comfortable for me ;_:
Wish I would have known this a week ago before I ordered a thumb ring for my longbow.
Ended up having to lower my grip on the string to even try shooting thumb draw first time.
Back in 2015, the FITA rules were clarified and specified that three fingers should be in front on the string, and only three fingers, ruling out the thumb release. Personally, I was gutted. I had been shooting competition recurve for two years using a glove, it was kinder to my wrist and elbow, although my thumb nail took a hammering. I am a left handed archer, and was using short limbs and a 23 inch riser, 30 ½ inch draw length and 64lb draw weight. It was lovely. No string pinch, no arrows getting blown off the arrow rest, I have long upper arms compared to my forearms so my draw naturally comes to my ear, and I didn't get the string hitting my nose, cheek or forearm.
So what did I find better and worse?
Accuracy was vastly improved IF I was 100% consistent. Even the most minor inconsistencies get punished harshly.
I was found that rather than having to draw short to my chin, I was able to do a full draw and this was a lot less fatiguing despite holding an extra 4lbs at full draw.
When you hold your arm and hand in full draw position, it naturally rests in the knuckles horizontal position, placing less torsion on the ligaments of both the wrists and elbow.
The string angle is more acute, meaning less interference from clothing AND shorter limbs and riser increases efficiency and arrow speed.
The thumb release increases draw length by between 1 and 1½ inches, allowing a longer power stroke and higher velocity.
Down side.
My poor thumbnail! After a full FITA, my thumbnail felt bruised. A double FITA left my thumbnail feeling like it had been trapped in a car door.
A slightly sloppy release that would deviate an arrow from the gold to the red at 50 yards if I was using Mediterranean release, would see the arrow in the white with a thumb release. If I got tired, my index finger would rotate under the string and the string would whack my finger tip on release, throwing the accuracy off and hurting like hell (like a shock from the mains electricity).
What name Brand Trade of mark archery here in Video.......???(For olympic game)
Thanks! I'm new to all this, and really curious to hear why there are fewer problems with arrow clearance and archers paradox with a finger draw than a thumb draw. That I do not understand. I hope you'll elaborate. Thanks.
Reason for thumb draw is to allow a long draw with the kind of steep string angle that short Turkish or Korean style bows have.
Nothing to do with horse archery , prairie Indians all drew with fingers . Had shorter drawing bows also.
I agree.
How do you explain Japanese archery then?
Landon Reno The Japanese and the Chinese are using such big bows (not just size wise but also draw length wise) that not drawing them with the thumb would be a total waste of ressources. But again, they have horse archers too.
Landon Reno kyudo also uses thumb draw it just doesnt use a thumb ring and its a variant.
Using a mediteranian draw on a yumi would involve curling your fingers around the string, resulting in plucking it. Additionally japnese archery was also used on horseback which means they needed to stableize the arrow.
MooseRohDah Yeah... that’s my point.
The modern Mongols just move the thumb draw down a little to avoid the finger pressure pushing the arrow off to the side. Now as to why they developed this technique I am not sure as to why because as they were horse archers the arrow on the right would have been the technique. I also think that it is a misconception that Mediterranean is inherently more accurate. The Korean officer tests were such that hitting a man sized target at 150 yds was expected and I would love to see that being accomplished with any degree of regularity with a modern recurve western style bow. What I do believe is that because of the inherited complications of the geometry to the target the thumb draw is a technique that requires far more discipline but I don’t believe it’s less accurate at all. Joel Turner shoots thumb draw off of a modern recurve flat bow that has been modified in the grip to make it a right handed bow with a left handed window for the arrow. I would dare say he is pretty dang accurate at the 50 yd shots I have seen him do. The thumb draw technique hasn’t been explored enough yet in modern times. The bows now using modern materials is changing that as the real downfall was the glue used that is so susceptible to moisture but with modern adhesives and materials Asian style bows are starting a come back.
We need a mixed styled archery competition.
I'm newbie. I have clear release without arrow vibration to sides with thumb draw instead of split fingers. It is easy to see with fiberglass arrows, my fiberglass arrows has bad flight stabilization and low stiffnes. Arrow tail waving with split fingers draw using classic bow like olimpic stile with plastic shelf
Hi NUSensei, I’m a little late to the party on this one but have you seen Joel Turner of Shot IQ? He shoots a custom right handed bow by Wenger Archery with the shelf made on the right hand side of the bow (barebow and hunting). Just thought you might find it interesting if you happen to see this comment. One thing that could be an advantage is extra draw length/more arrow speed.
Do you mean that he holds this bow with his Left hand, places the arrow on the Right side of this bow and draws the bow string using his Right hand thumb? It's easyer to just use a left hand bow with a right hand grip if available, if not use baseball bat tape.
@@robertorios3135 yes, though I'm not sure I think it is easier to adapt a bow than it is to use one made specifically to suit the way you shoot - especially given that I'm sure Joel would likely have a Wengerd whether he shot that way or not (I wouldn't mind one myself, maybe one day!) He has other bows too, which I assume he shoots in what people might be considered a more normal way. If you don't know who he is, look him up - he's very well respected in the traditional archery community in particular, as well as the guy to see for solving target panic and the mental side of the shot process (both with a variety of archery equipment, and guns too I believe).
Question for anyone that knows archery well: why is it that when i shoot with my anchor point in the air my aim is really good, but when i shoot from my face it gets way worst. shouldnt be the opposite? am i doing it wrong?
4 years later : Did you figure it out ?
What a load of BS! Historical drawings depict loads of olympic archers using thumb draw with their bows while jumping around! Lars Andersen said so himself! Humanity just stopped giving a collective crap about the ultimate way of shooting, and so he had to singlehandedly reinvent archery from the ground up. With his superior style, you can split a black bean in between two arrows while scratching your back and doing a 540 kickflip on your skateboard. The only reason modern olympic archers don't do this is because they're in the pocket of Big Archery, supplying them with bows that shoot themselves using gadgets, lasers, smoke, and mirrors. If the olympic games weren't so corrupt, we'd see traditional 200 lbs self bows dominate, even in rifle and pistol competitions. Speaking of which, those pansies should embrace muskets, since the power and precision of those historical weapons is far superior to modern BB-guns.
(Just thought I'd try to collect all the usual complaints into one comment. Enjoyed the video, Nu!)
Lol- thought you were serious to start with!
elevown
Don't you enjoy it.
When sacasm in written form works so well ?
James Badger well played sir. I had Lars on the tip of my thumbs....you beat me too it.
Lars? nah
You missed the part where I'm just jealous.
wonderful lesson; thoughtfully presented
Would be interested in your thoughts on the American Indian style of "pinch" draw ala Shawnee.
Did you just show us how we can use a bow upside down? :D
How is it any more of a release aid than a finger tab?
Are non mechanical strap releases legal?
You should do a thumb draw vs Mediterranean draw video
The last part is wrong. The thumb draw can give the archer more draw lengh, which means more power. It causes less injuryin the fingers from my experience in both drwas, the release is more smooth, you can shoot smaller bows with it because the angle of the string doesn't nip your thumb when you draw them, and of caurse it leaves you with 3 free fingers next to each others, which you can use to hold more arrows and shoot much faster. It is much better choice unless you draw extremely high wieght (more than 80lb) and need 3 fingers for that. For compatitions there are rules, but for free style shooters, especially for hunting or combat archery, the thumb draw is the ultimate choise. I say it from my experience with both.
None of these advantages are relevant to modern target archery. There are advantages to thumb draw, but nothing that would make someone use it at the Olympics if they could.
Ironically the only two WA division that is closer in spirit of trad archery are Instinctive and Longbow. If only they can legalise Mongolian Draw...
When that happens, we will see an influx of Eastern style trad archery in WA events that contested WA Longbow and Instinctive Bows. Hopefully...
So I'm coming from a place of ignorance on rules. How far does the standards extend? If someone came in using like a traditional Mongolian recurve and not an Olympic style bow, no forearm guard, and a thumb draw, etc, would they be allowed to? Or does it have to be standardized like everyone else?
That would be allowed, a traditional metal/bone thumb ring falls into a very grey area, but a leather thumb tab or glove would definitely be legal. worldarchery.org/rulebook/article/793 The rules allow far more obviously, but they don't REQUIRE much of anything.
Where did you get the eastern horse bow?
I thought you said in an old video that it was Mandrin Duck, but I can't find one from them. I would rather avoid the ebay specials if at all possible.
I've been told that MD is currently not selling it due to shipping costs. My understanding is that the length of the bow means that it costs more for freight, while their other bows are take down models.
Thanks for the reply.
I've found a couple others I'm looking at. The Akai (curved stick) 50" from Lancaster, and the Samick SKB 50 Korean 50" (nicer than the curved stick) also from Lancaster. www.lancasterarchery.com/samick-skb-50-korean-50-recurve-bow.html
I'm tempted to go for the Samick. Should be decent at the price point.
Which bow are you using at 0.50?
I have a lot less years of experience then you but i think the main reason of the thumb draw is the string angle of the shorter bow. Of the advantages you mentioned about arrow stability on the bow, this could be had with the Slavic release or a pinch plus two under. Can you mount a left handed recurve bow with a right handed grip and then try again to shoot with thumb draw?
You can, and some people do. There's no real advantage to it though. The most notable person who does this is Joel Turner from ShotIQ, but his main preference is more on that it allows him to have a wider range of vision with the bow canted. It offers no advantaged to sighted recurve.
I still don't understand the advantage of resting the arrow on the left hand side of the riser.
It slows the rate of fire to have to thread the arrow between the string and the bow.
High rate of fire isn't necessarily a desirable goal. This would have been necessary for a horse archer who has to engage multiple targets at a gallop, but a foot archer doesn't need to loose all his arrows in seconds. Even so, a historical medieval archer could loose an arrow every 5 seconds, so the rate of fire wasn't crippling.
The development of the "left side" technique is a result of the use of heavier bows on foot. Instead of using a single digit (the thumb) to pull the string, the Mediterranean grip uses three fingers, giving the archer more strength and control. Consider that the epitome of archers using this style - the English archers - were pulling well over 120 pounds, this would have been a necessity.
There are other advantages, such as being able to sight down the arrow, though this is mitigated with Eastern draw technique and aiming methods.
The distinction is generally between Western and Eastern styles (with exceptions). Eastern styles typically focused on faster, lighter bows and often on horseback, while Western styles were slower and based on foot archers.
Thank you for your time and great videos. Someone mentioned Khatra, if that is where they throw the bow away to the side is wrong. I have seen a video in slow motion and the arrow is all ready past the riser when they move the bow to the side, Khatra does nothing. If your arrows are the right spine they will fly true just like shooting a long bow that is not cut past center. The right arrow is the key.
I absolutely thought that when I started shooting horsebow, coming from recurve. Khatra seemed completely unecessary, and very difficult to make consistent, so I figured I'd just use correctly spined arrows and there'd be no need for Khatra. And.....then I tried it. And got waaaay better groups. So, without even thinking about why it works....I'm sticking with it, at least when I'm shooting the horsebow :)
So, that's only true for people attempting to perform the follow-through (khatra) incorrectly. There are two problems with the process people have used to "disprove" the efficacy of a follow-through. The first problem is that they try to perform that technique in the moment, which can't work because nobody will ever, ever be that fast. The second problem is that people are focused on the full motion, most of which is meaningless.
The parts that matter are the edge of the bow grip moving just outside the left side of the string (assuming a right-handed thumb draw with the arrow on the right), which happens during the recoil of the bow after release and probably in the later part of the arrow clearing the bow, and the string itself jumping to the right just a little bit as it clears the thumb (very similar to what the string does during a mediterranean release).
You have to preload the tension or it won't work, and it doesn't necessarily have to be as big of a motion as you often see people talk about. What matters is creating a set of forces that counteracts the arrow's "natural tendency" to shoot to the right of where you are pointing (a result of the massive offset from center on a traditional recurve bow), and if you sat down in person with a traditional recurve and someone to teach you it would quickly become obvious that the follow-through does, in fact matter.
More importantly, you can see the relevant string and bow movement in this video: ruclips.net/video/dTZkrmM5hx4/видео.html shows the shot where the bow movement is more obvious, you can see the bow twist just a little and move what appears to be about a third of an inch to the left as the arrow passes... rewind and watch in slow motion and frame by frame a number of times and it becomes easier to see. The oblique angle and the low number of frames makes it very hard to get a good idea of when the movements really occur, unfortunately, but there is enough movement to provide a clearer path for the arrow. I do think there is some arrow-slap against the grip at the end, but if the contact occurred it was between frames. Regardless, you can see down-range that he's got a pretty reasonable group of arrows in the target.
The two big clues that rotation is already occurring during the shot before the arrow clears the bow is that you cannot see through the brace of the bow as the bow string returns to brace height (despite the oblique angle), and you can see evidence of the limbs twisting when you look at the alignment at the upper limb near the string nock vs near the bow hand as you go frame-by-frame during the arrow's path before the nock clears the hand-grip. I don't think there are anywhere near enough frames of video for us to say exactly when things happen, but the arrow trajectory looks very different when the same spine arrow is used without pre-tension.
Again, the big follow-through everyone talks about is just the natural consequence of suddenly releasing the bow and no longer having that force to hold the bow hand in place... it is not what actually affects the arrow.
Don't get me wrong, shooting a heavier tip makes it easier and so does a longer arrow. However, if you want to shoot straight you have to have some amount of pretension that creates just enough of a path for the arrow to pass cleanly while also countering the off-angle of the arrow at release. This will create a visible follow-through, which is what the word Khatra is used to describe.
Some people create a static pre-tension that is initiated with the draw hand while holding the bow statically at an off angle (the draw straightens the bow, and , and others initiate it with the bow hand after the draw has begun by starting the motion and then releasing the arrow (which, of course, does not help accuracy)
I also find that when I shoot Mediterranean release with my traditional recurves it ALSO helps to use a very minor "reverse khatra," or in English a follow-through that brings the string towards the bow arm instead of away from it. This lets me aim every bit as accurately and consistently as I do with my Bodnik Slick Stick, which is pretty nice to be able to say: At this point I'm pretty much always in the 8-10 point zone on a 16" (40cm) FITA target at 20 meters and I have started putting individual targets up so that I don't damage my arrows... it also helps teach me individual target acquisition instead of just repeating the exact same motion over and over, which keeps me engaged and has rapidly improved my shooting.
Lately I've been putting nerf darts on old arrows that I stick in the ground at various heights and distances (12-22 meters), and I shoot them off (at 18m I graze the things 4-5 shots out of 10 and currently nail it dead-on about once every 20 shots), which is not something I can do without that pre-tension in the bow hand. Obviously with the Slick Stick I use no such pre-tension, and in both cases I use arrows that range between 380 grains and 440 grains, shooting them all straight from the same bow at the same draw.
My Slick Stick is actually modified (by me) to be cut just a hair past center and also have a fletching pass built into the arrow rest, which makes a noticeable difference.
You have to realize that these bows are offset 0.4 inches from center at the very least (in most cases), and if you plug that into a dynamic spine calculator like the 3 rivers one (pretty good) you end up having to give your arrows a dynamic spine that's appropriate for a 27ish lb bow... for a 50 lb recurve that throws a 10GPP arrow 180ish FPS. Outside of aluminum arrow shafts, I worry about such an arrow exploding during the shot.
By contrast, the dynamic spine for my Slick Stick is calculated out to be around 70 lbs... yet both bows shoot the exact same arrows straight, precisely, and accurately enough to hit a 1/2" wide target reliably when the bow-hand pre-tension is used on the traditional recurve.
The point is, bow-hand pre-tension technique (khatra) is as much a factor as the arrows themselves when you're talking about a traditional recurve bow without a shelf.
I like this demonstration of khatra ruclips.net/video/iDn7bb-OBPY/видео.html
Well, when shooting a non-centershot bow you need to do khatra when drawing with the sum, as the thumb introduces very little sideways string oscillation. But when shooting centershot you don't need khatra, as the arrow does not need to paradox aorund the bow. So then why not use tumb draw if is introduces less sideways vibration with centershot bows? Well actually we use thumb draw. The compound release works just like thumb draw... just even cleaner than actual thumb draw. So shooting a rightside cutout centershot bow ,that supports the arrow well enough from the pressure from he draw hadn inherint to thumb draw, with thumb draw, you would probably be more accurate than shooting it Mediterranean. Actually ironmind hunting (YT channel) does that and he is crazy acurate.
Wadde... du bist doch aus'm Slingshotforum, oder?? Seit wann schießt du Bogen?
Achso? lol. Was hast du denn angestellt?^^
Hast du außerdem eine Quelle zu dieser Behauptung von diesem Gao Ying? Kann mir nicht vorstellen, woe man ohen Khatra auskommen soll bei Bögen, die nicht center shot sind.
Achso, der macht diese Rotationsvorspannungsmethode, wo er den Bogen direkt schon beim Ausziehen nach links dreht, so dass da quasi "Rotationsspannung" (ich nicht Physiker) drauf ist, die dann umgesetzt wird, sobald er löst, oder? Das fällt für mich unter Khatra. Khatra ist für mich jede vom Schützen ausgeführte Bewegung des Bogens. Dass die in diesem Fall nun durch so eine Rotationsspannung ausgelöst wird, ändert nichts am Prinzip.
Ich selber hab gar keinen Reiterbogen und/ oder Daumenring. Wollte mir aber immer mal einen besorgen und die Technik von Joel von Ironmind Hunting austesten. Allerdings braucht man dafür auch einen Linkshänderbogen mit einem Rechtshändergriff... das ist mir alles zu umständlich.
Wieso Pfeile im Gesicht explodieren?
Sorry forgot to say in Melbourne vic
Hi Nu.
Good video. I'd like to clarify that mediteranian and thumb draw are equal and neither is superior unlike you stated. It's just that modern equipment is made for mediteranian draw and thus gives the benefit of modern materials and technology to one form.
The exact same thing would be true had asiatic archery been the dominant form with westernized archery becoming stable.
I wish there was rules for allowing different forms of archery in the olympics. I'd love to see horse archery, or flight archery in the olympics with a less standardization on technique and more focus on results & equipment regulation.
Just put the indexfinger on the other side of the string and use the double hook over the thumb. ..
I think it can be condensed into 1 minute
Where can we buy that horse bow?
His is from Mandarin Duck (though, they've been out of stock for a couple of months), but you can get the same bow on eBay. Got mine last week.
Heather what is called on eBay?
I never shot mandarin duck trad bow, but they look the same as other standard chinese fiberglass bows. Not worth more than 60-70usd. They are good to shoot but usually not very efficent and significantly worse at lower poundages. I suggest you look for a non string bridge bow like "han bow" or "magyar" they have less hand shock. U may check AF Archery store on ebay.
Search for horsebow.
horsebows.com
There is no accuracy difference between thumb and Mediterranean draw. Only difference is that thumb draw is a little harder to master. I personally find thumb draw to be more accurate since it involves only one digit and the arrow is more stable. Also, it allows for a better sight picture.
Sight picture doesn't matter when you're using a sight.
I shoot horsebows and thumb release 'cause I'm sick of the spine mess for my different bows.
"Modern traditional" (...) Mongolian shooting use thumb ring with arrow on the shooter side (ruclips.net/video/gAqSmy-CZJM/видео.html)
There is still arrow stability problem than most manage to overcome.
I guess probably no one will really train for competition with this style to find out he'll be disqualified at some point anyway.
aside from history, the more youre touching your arrow, the more room for error you create when letting go of it
Absolutely that's why I shoot with 2 fingers under the arrow nock. My fingers never touch the arrow at all.
A proper thumbdraw has very little contact with arrow. Argueably it has less than the typical over/under 3 finger draw.
if you are pinching the arrow with a 3 finger draw maybe
Again, I shoot with 2 fingers UNDER the arrow nock and have Zero Problems with arrow flight. Too many people reading Waaaaay Too much into this. It's not rocket science, it's simply using your mental "Eye" to see the target, point your fist at it and let instincts take over. It literally took me a year of pounding the target in my back yard to finally SEE my arrow fly where I wanted it to go. Once you SEE the mystical flight of the arrow it's as if you have suddenly came out of the dark and stepped into the light so to speak. When you can Actually SEE your arrow in flight and Know that it's hitting the mark, you will know that you are there. And once you "See" your arrow in flight, you cannot unsee it, it's always with you.
Maybe if you used the "Persian" thumb grip as depicted in here it could work, but I'm not an archer so I don't know if you can.
ruclips.net/video/BNtBfcQ_Scg/видео.html
It become really uncomfortable once above 38 pounds of draw weight with thumb draw.
you just have to use a lefthand bow, it has the arrowrest cutout on the other side. problem solved
If thumb ring counts as release aid, how the finger tab does not?
ngondeg Probably because the tab's only function is to protect your fingers. The ring acts as a lever.
probably you can use thumb leather tab. There are some products.
Tab's and ring's function is to protect the fingers and to smoothen the release. Also, NU sensei made reviews of pro tabs with adjustible parts that have like seven functions apart from finger protection :) I thought the rules were to prevent the use of a mechanical release.
Right, the leather thumb ring should pass.
I mean goo.gl/dsVJCT this one. You still use your fingers to hook the string. But when using ring, you hook the string with ring itself. I dont think its about material but lever function will effect the allowance. Thumb finger tab (not ring) just act like 3 finger tabs. Just for one finger (thumb)
So, out of curiosity, couldn't you just use a left handed bow to solve the arrow rest problem? If someone is dead set on using a thumb draw, it doesn't seem like this is an insurmountable issue to solve.
It could work, but it would provide no advantage.
So why not using a LH olympic bow if you're right-handed?
You can. But why would you? The alternative draw methods don't provide an advantage to necessitate the opposite grip.
@@NUSensei In a competition I definitely wouldn't. But Joel Turner on a video from Clay Hayes (ruclips.net/video/0MtrrRZQoMI/видео.html) makes a compelling argument for thumb draw when hunting (allows for a larger draw and "better" sight picture)
Mongolians use the thumb draw with the arrow on the "left" side !! Placing the thumb under the arrow without touching it.
If the Koreans who’s history and culture is very much entwined with archery and specifically horse bows and thumb draws still choose to use modern Olympic bows with Mediterranean draws for the Olympics that’s good enough for me.
I’m barebow only, but seeing the Olympic bows at our clubs, they are nothing short of the sniper rifle of the archery world. Even if you wanted to thumb draw them, everything is designed for Mediterranean style. Even if a thumb shooter could be as accurate, the high end gear needed for the sport just doesn’t exist.
I’m rubbish a thumb draw, but I enjoy the motions, just wish aiming was easier. With my recurve I’m happy if I hit golds and reds, with my horse bows shooting thumb release, I’m happy if all my shots hit the boss.
sales me your account var tander if yes then for how much?
Another video full with information. (Auto focus a bit annoying btw.)
Twists the string the wrong way
why the thumb draw bows are not used for huting?
Thumb draws can be used for hunting. Train well enough in any style and you can use it to hunt.
what i really mean is why asiatic style bow, horse bow is not apt for hunting? i tried grozer bows claimed best in the world and they are not dynamic even heavy in poundage, then i change for hoyt and predator hunter bows and they work for hunting kill big game
also i tried mongolian bows horn bows and they are the worst of all even heavy poundage bow
Pretty sure based off the first 10 seconds that you've got the arrow on the wrong side of the bow for thumb draw
That was the point.
@@NUSensei oh fair enough
One day when horseback archery makes it to the Olympic games then we will see thumb draw. It already has an international governing body. I've been learning how for two years now and it a very exciting sport. Although not everyone uses thumb draw. I wonder how long till it's an Olympic sport.
Yeay, I'd love to watch that
I have no idea about thumb draw you your first demo there rather looked like my kids the first time they tried to do a 3 finger draw. Perhaps you practiced thumb draw as much as you have 3 finger, you would not look so Newbie-ish.
Seriously though, why isn't horse archery an Olympic event? I mean, they have freaking dressage (AKA horse ballet) as the only horse based Olympic event.
Mediterranean or three-under is falsely perceived as more accurate for two reasons. Mediterranean / three-under is generally done from bows with shelves. Most shelves shoot down the centerline which provides the additional accuracy. The second reason Mediterranean / three-under is considered more accurate is because it's done by a larger number of people, and therefore, statistically speaking, it should attract more elite archers. None of that is even touching on the bow accessory difference between high level Mediterranean shooters and high level thumb draw shooters.
Further to that, Mediterranean was adopted for precision target shooting, while thumb draw never was. Thumb draw is more closely rooted to historical archery with functional accuracy, not pinpoint precision. It isn't so much the technique that is superior, but what it is being used for.
*razorback takedown recurvebow
9:07 LOL Can't you use a left hand bow for thumb release? I can't believe how rigid your mind is :)
For what advantage?
@@NUSensei For the sake of trying new stuff, which is the essential of human development. BTW I mentioned the advantage I can think of in another comment: 2 less fingers to mess up the release.
There is only one problem with Olympic shooting. They use ridiculously weak bows. I’m sure there would be less accuracy difference between med and thumb draw in a competition using warbows.
That's because warbows aren't designed for precision shooting. Higher draw means inherently mean less control. Target shooting uses lower draw weights because there are diminishing returns to using higher draw weights. You get more speed which in turn means lower flight time and wind drift, but the fatigue means fewer accurate shots and lower consistency. There's nothing stopping a target shoot from using a higher weight, and some competitive shooters do push for custom high-50lb limbs, but the sweet spot for accurate shooting over long distance is around 45-50lb. In contrast, accurate shooting for a war bow is around 20-30m just to hit a broad target.
While this range is more competitive between finger and thumbshooting styles, an argument can be made that the inability for a thumbshooter to sight using the tip of the arrow is a major disadvantage. Unless the thumbshooter modifies their technique to be able to use the knuckle side (as modern Mongolian archers do), two equally skilled shooters would likely see the finger shooter come out ahead in a contest where only precision matters.
Your arrow needs to be on the outside of your bow.
you can't use the thumb with instinctive shooting? That's moronic
This is why sports can destroy talent and fun when to many rules are put in!!
I think I disagree! I believe through my own practice that you get noticeable more arrow speed. I shoot from a polished horn thumb ring. I would say thumb is superior to three finger but maybe not for Olympic archery , not sure , haven't tried!