Katie deserves roses for putting this together. Sophisticated dialogue and debate that we can all learn from. Not many conversations on this topic worth watching, but this one is and more!
I think the difference between idpol now and idpol back in Barbara's day is that there used to be an actual organised working class movement - pointing out how capitalism also uniquely affects black people, women etc was obviously a powerful corrective. In the absence of class politics, it's just rhetoric which allows people to feel radical without having to really do anything.
Even worse it's just a way for privileged people who happen to be any of the protected classes to enrich themselves often on the backs of the working class.
No it didn't, it never was. It piggy-backed on the back of organised working class movements which already existed and were effective. Then took them over and destroyed them.
@@catocall7323 I occasionally help two very wealthy friends in Marin county California at there 2 million dollars home. They both have a privileged left perspective but almost entirely rely on Maddow for the news. My friends wife, will not even remotely entertain most working class struggle issues. Her perspective is entirely that the problems of society are because of racism. I can’t describe the whole story. But it gets worse. When she hires a person of color to help with a dinner party etc. she will say in front of them “I am such a spoiled white woman.” Which is I guess, I suppose an admission of the proverbial “white guilt”. Her workers have to drive from 30 miles away because they can’t even afford to live in the same community. But she will also say things like, “the Ukrainians are sacrificing their lives so war will never have to be fought again.” And any criticism I may have of capitalism is met with, “What’s wrong with capitalism!” She is actually a friend of Robyn DiAngelo and a corporate consultant who gets DiAngelo hired across the country for corporate trainings. From what I can see this is not merely vanity politics for her. It is truly a politics designed to do nothing substantial for any working class people of any ethnicity.
That fundamental disconnection from real politics coupled with the Democrat party's newly embraced authoritarianism, censorship and utilization of federal law enforcement to attack dissidents and enforce narratives, have in effect abolished our civil liberties.
YES! Norman Finkelstein has hit the nail on the head. He exhibits zero intellectual dishonesty and no wilful ignorance, which is common practice to many on the left side of the fence. Thank you Norman, I wish more were like you.
When I pointed out Barbara Smith's lack of honesty on a previous clip posted of her, her response was to gaslight me with nonsense. When I pointed this out and debunked her gaslighting, she didn't respond. Even went over to Twitter to point out that she is effectively a mass murderer, being a surrogate for a Biden surrogate. She is a deeply unserious person.
Barbara Smith also gets it, but it seems like she doesn't understand the extent that the left has been hijacked. Progressive college students are mostly fans of Robin DiAngelo.
@@TCt83067695 Because it's meaningless to his goal of exposing the top identity politic peddlers as frauds. A better question is why would he read or quote her.
Amazing, amazing discussion! Great and real intellectuals are humble. It is a feast of ideas that just blows your mind in this otherwise age of mindless, brain-crushing Mainstream's saturation of ether with their boring, predictable and dis honest commentary. What a breath of fresh air! Thanks Katie for putting this together!
Katie has a genius for getting the most important intellectual minds together to discuss the most relevant issues, I'm really grateful for this. Real intellectual integrity on display here, these people are not posers who shift their principles to accommodate and retain standing in the liberal class
But why is this conversation only being held in 2025. The Intellectual dishonesty of Identity politics has undermined class-based progressive movement for the last 10 years, overreaching and proving fuel for MAGA rightwing populist reaction
As Barbara recollects certain organising successes back in the 1970s, it would be good if all the disccussants, Norman included, start from the recognition that ‘the left’ has failed comprehensively and entirely over the last 50 years. Asking why should be the basis of discussion. That is not to say that identity politics is solely responsible for this failure, but for either side-pro-identity politics/anti-identity politics-to nitpick between them and count their own small successes, is to engage in a delusion. The fact is the last 50 years has been an unrelenting counter revolution, culminating in a situation in which the left already finds itself cheerleading the project for the next 50 years of ruling class accumulation and control-for “green” imperialism and pandemic shock doctrines.
Well stated. These respected intellectuals must call out the failed politics of the past half century. Some of their full-on denigration of Bernie and embrace of Biden doomed a united workers movement for the next 50 years.
But the idpolers haven't failed at all, they've been hugely successful. To the point where systemic discrimination against whites, men and straight people is ubiquitous. Gay marriage has been won. And boys are being told they can become girls. This is neoliberalism. Right wing economics and "left wing" social policy. We keep moving "left" socially and right economically. And that's what we've seen for the last 45 years. And people like Smith, though she won't say it, wouldn't trade these social changes for universal healthcare, living wages, affordable housing or any class-based policies which would affect far more lives in far more positive ways.
While one can't attribute leftist defeat to a single cause, certainly the most important one is the Democratic Party which is a near perfect instrument for insuring that genuine progressives never get anywhere near state power.This is its main purpose.
Barbara Smith is an icon, founding member of the Combahee River Collective. The Combahee River Collective Statement was developed by a "collective of Black feminists...involved in the process of defining and clarifying our politics, while...doing political work within our own group and in coalition with other progressive organizations and movements..." The Combahee River Collective Statement was separated into four chapters: The Genesis of Contemporary Black Feminism; What We Believe; Problems in Organizing Black Feminists; and Black Feminist Issues and Projects.
I agree. And it's disturbing when younger people shout that boomers have wrecked it all, etc, etc, without realizing that the generational divides are erroneous - the root of societal troubles lies in the power divide: who's capable of creating policy* and why**. (Business and political leaders*/wealth**)
@@jaykay415 Excellent statement. An example was the anti-semitism of Dave Chappelle , Kyrie Irving, Kanye West. It was a shock to me that they received so much support from young people who sincerely believed the trio were telling hard truths!! As a 58 year old that shocked me. But the young don't have any knowledge of history only the hear and now of digital.
@@stoa7302 When has Dave Chappelle been anti-semitic? He is an intellectual giant in contrast to West + Irving, and is a comedian to boot. Not everything he says is a radical belief
Norman did a great job further clarifying his position and he’s right - identity politics has blunted the radicalism previously inherent in the left and reduced critical thought to reflexive personalized urges to attack those who don’t suscribe to woke folks’ uninformed sensibilities. Identity politics divorced the real time practical application of the class question from all other questions of oppression and marginalization
Ideas like identity politics that are generated in academic institutions usually fail as soon as they leave the academy and have to fend for themselves on the streets.
@@GregoryWonderwheel The people are bound to reject ideas that are divorces from their lived experience. Such ideas often find a home in the corporate swamp
Right wingers think concern for the plight of the working class is “woke” identity politics. By letting them demonize empathy/the Golden Rule you’re just helping them avoid taking responsibility for their relentless support of predatory capitalism. They think taking care of the poor becomes IP when the poor happen to be black.
Norman F. is so right here. The whole point of Socialism is solidarity on an across-the-board programme where pressing single issues are as well-served as every other, upon the basis of equity - not 'special treatment.' Individual Leftists throwing a Socialist or Social Dem. under the proverbial bus, because they don't specialise in your - or my - particular cause, is entirely self-defeating.
A bit ironic given Finkelstein's uncanny ability to alienate everyone, including most of those fighting for Palestinian rights, the cause he was once associated with. These days, you're more likely to hear him ranting about "wokeism" in the style of Ron DeSantis.
I've had the opposite experience. More often, people who decry "identity politics" are racist, sexist, transphobic, etc., and use it as a reason to ignore these oppressions and focus only on the economic side. They don't realize that particular oppressions require particular remedies. Or they'll go so far as to deny these other forms of oppression exist. Which they obviously do. And it DOES matter because for example, women need to organize with each other not only as socialists. Because men have power over women and we need to organize women to combat male supremacy.
Katie - you have a unique abilty to bring together people who have important things to say to the world. Your interview style brings out the best in them. I greatly appreciate you!
Sometimes saying "thank you" isn't sufficient for the gift offered, but it's all can say to all of you. I am so grateful for what the four of you just did for everyone else. And Barbara, you changed my mind entirely on identity politics, which I guess isn't that hard once the story of its actual invention is heard accurately and honestly. May I say, Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" and her discussion of sati makes the same basic argument for the same basic reasons. Somehow I could see that one but not the US one because of what identity politics has become in popular contemporary discourse: a cudgel of the powerful.
I understand & appreciate that identity politics of the past was groundbreaking, powerful and instigated great change. But unfortunately, today, it is mostly aggressive, negative messaging, destructive and polarises issues to the point where flaws are denied. When indentity pols double down, and don't respond to the crazy shite in their camp... You then lose control of the response and end up giving the control of the response to the people who would push back in the worst possible way. When you overuse words to guilt people by association, shut down debate and continue to refuse to work or listen to each other ... There is no way forward. Progressive/conservative/left/right. Division is deep. And we need a holistic way of dealing with issues that includes all people from all walks of life together. Why? Because not everyone's priorities are the same. They never will be. A good policy would be one with a diversity of ideas to suit all priorities
More than that, in the last 5 years or so, Academic racial and gender studies have degraded into blatant anti-white racism and anti-straight male sexism. The effect is to sow division, distract from class, and pour gas on the fire. Thus you start getting phenomena like Donald Moss publishing a paper in a major psychology journal about how white babies are parasites and white people are sociopaths afflicted with "whiteness".
Yea... these two seem to be stuck in the past while Norman is talking about the reality of the Present. Huge disconnect between what it used to mean in the past kr what they want it to mean, and what it means in reality today in the present.
The "identity politics" of the past was fighting for genuine, transformative policies, in some respects. Today it isn't in any way. It's fighting for power and narcissism. And converts to very little policy. And the policy it does convert to is poisonous and discriminatory (ie "diversity" policies and affirmative action). When you encounter idpol the best question to ask is "what policies are you advocating for?". The fundamental problem with it is that it's antithetical to class politics in a couple of key ways. Firstly, it deals mainly with abstractions, while class politics deals mainly with material reality. It also argues that minorities are more important than majorities, and the concerns of the minority should trump the concerns of the majority-- even when said concerns are trivial compared to the concerns of the latter. eg in "lefty" circles you get cancelled for saying "trans" women are not women. But don't get cancelled for saying "universal healthcare doesn't work". So having a belief which could offend 0.0001% of the population is heresy, but having a belief which deprived tens of millions of people of healthcare is acceptable. When you think about the reality of it it's absurd and untenable. And easy to observe how it has destroyed the left.
I think its fair for the left to be skeptical of identity politics as its been coopted by corporations and mainstream neoliberal politicos to keep class divorced from politics. But at the same time just like we can criticize neoliberalism for engaging in race/cultural reductionism I think its fair to say that the left has over corrected and become class reductionist and that that is actively undermining its efforts. I think the left as a whole, and Norm in particular, is a little too dismissive towards identity politics. Identity is the core of politics and expecting POCs in America to abandon their self-interest to further the politics of a movement that has historically overlooked and pushed their interest to the margins is not an effective way to build a coalition. Furthermore, I think dismissing those criticisms of the Bernie campaign instead of taking it as honest feedback is a mistake. We should be looking to build bridges across intersectional lines and look to advance the interests of marginalized groups. Will that turn people off? Sure, but that is the whole art of coaltion building. You need to build a compelling platform that speaks to people and encourages them to engage. Not demand conformity and slander those not compelled for lacking solidarity.
Right--in 1972 when I was 17, ID politics was eye opening and created pathways for me to engage with the world politically. The so-called ID politics of today does the opposite. It fails at politics and serves to undermine organizing and empowering the people. I consider it a scourge.
I wish Robin Kelley and Barbara Smith would speak more directly about how identity politics has been hijacked so that we can all get a better understanding of the distinction between the liberal identity politics of Robin Diangelo and the radical identity politics of the Combahee River Collective.
Agreed. I came into this discussion much more on Norm's side, and like him don't think I had a good understanding of what Barbara's conception of identity politics was and is. It's understandable that she would want it to mean what she meant by it when she originally used it, yet almost everyone outside a narrow sliver of academia and activism *only* know it in the Kendi/DiAngelo version. Robin and Barbara seem to be avoiding admitting that the term has been hijacked, as if by not acknowledging it it won't be true, but the train left that station years ago. It's unfortunate that they have to, but if they want to be understood by a wider audience they have to make that point up front and repeatedly or gets confused for the modern version.
We don’t need to be spending time debating if we should exclude identity politics because it’s been bastardized, but rather take what the original intent of identity politics and adapt it to the issues of our times and reclaim the intention of identity politics… because, regardless of your favor or disinterest in identity, identity is fundamentally part of our nature, and also fundamentally what gets exploited and oppressed. So we must adapt identity politics against the establishment. The establishment has taken our leftist weapons to fight it and forged their own weapons out of identity politics and woke and are using it against us to crush the left today.
@@Goldun-nahEXCELLENT comment. When you say " we must adapt identity politics against the establishment" that was Barbara and the 60's and 70's intent. Working class whites, blacks, women, Native Americans, the student movement all had individual or group goals but it was understood that it was a revolutionary change time period in which all would find their rights. Remember that the 70's was the most egalitarian time in U.S. history. Its in that back drop that identity politics was forged in a period of optimism and progressive ideals seen as inevitable even the silent majority accepted. The 80's marked a back lash whose fierceness has only intensified with the maturity of the power of Capital which is now totalitarian like, and which adopts white male Christian nationalist authoritarianism to condemn identity politics.
It hasn't been hijacked. This is what it was from the outset and it what it was always designed to be. I'm at 6:50 and stopped to research the murders she mentions. The first thing of note is that one of the victims was a white woman. The second thing to note is that the names of the (alleged) killers does not receive top billing, and the respective races of the killers is not mentioned, in the Wikipedia article at least. Want to guess why? The man arrested for the first two murders was named Dennis Jamal Porter. The man arrested for the murder of a 15 year old girl was named James Brown. Another woman was allegedly killed by a man who lived with her named Eugene B. Conway. It's hard to find details about the killers, but these men don't sound like white guys, based on their names. A couple of the killings weren't solved. Weird that it's hard to find any details about the killers but you can find numerous articles pushing the identity politics of the killings. "Black women killed". Which is the point, isn't it? That's what racist, sexist ideologues like Smith want. It's narrative over facts every time. How can this woman argue that this approach brings people together? It so obviously does the opposite. And how many men were being murdered at this time? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was at least 3 times as many. So why would you approach the murders of black and white women by both black and white men as a "black women's" issue, when far more men (and black men) are being murdered? Because narcissism. *My* identity is what matters. *My* identity group having more power is what matters. *My* identity group being the bigger victims is what matters.
@@Goldun-nah The only people exploiting and oppressing identity groups today are the neoliberal identity politicians, like Smith. The fact that corporations wholeheartedly embrace identity politics tells you everything you need to know about how destructive they are.
Amazing! Great to see lots of learning happening in real time. It’s also great to hear how useful identity politics is when it is used in good faith to build community. I think the Democratic Party and other corporations use identity politics to further divide people and make it harder for people to organize against management
There is a serious disconnect here - Barbara and her side didn't win the fight, historically speaking. What she is saying has no relevance now. Identity Politics became something else. What Norm is talking about is the present. Address what the subject is now, not what you wish it had become.
Yeah I find her take egocentric. She more or less admits she's obscure and is never invited to the cool kids parties. So why would Norm include her in a book that is about the state of things now.
I don't know how I managed to miss this conversation for a whole year but it was amazing. Thank you so much for putting this together, Katie. I don't think NF really took it in but I'm glad it's here.
This was a great exchange its so refreshing to listen to debate at this level being conducted in such a civil fashion. I do hope that people are as inspired and heartened by this as I am
The fact that they successfully organised something with a variety of others trips does not explain the value of identify politics - it explains the value of small group organisation and coalition. He makes a very good point: identity stripped from class components is dangerous. And obviously hijacked by the elites.
How wonderful to hear Barbara discuss the remarkable movement-building history of the Combahee River Collective. And of the foundational role it played in the historic mayoral campaign of Mel King, who just died last week at the age of 94. What an important discussion with such esteemed guests - once again, Katie the mensch knocks it out of the park!
"The Combahee River Collective (CRC) (/kəmˈbiː/ kəm-BEE)[1] was a Black feminist lesbian socialist organization active in Boston, Massachusetts from 1974 to 1980.[2][3] The Collective argued that both the white feminist movement and the Civil Rights Movement were not addressing their particular needs as Black women and more specifically as Black lesbians" Lmao. It brings to mind Christopher Hitchens' thoughts on identity politics: “Since this often seems to come up in discussions of the radical style, I'll mention one other gleaning from my voyages. Beware of Identity politics. I'll rephrase that: have nothing to do with identity politics. I remember very well the first time I heard the saying "The Personal Is Political." It began as a sort of reaction to defeats and downturns that followed 1968: a consolation prize, as you might say, for people who had missed that year. I knew in my bones that a truly Bad Idea had entered the discourse. Nor was I wrong. People began to stand up at meetings and orate about how they 'felt', not about what or how they thought, and about who they were rather than what (if anything) they had done or stood for. It became the replication in even less interesting form of the narcissism of the small difference, because each identity group begat its sub-groups and "specificities." This tendency has often been satirised-the overweight caucus of the Cherokee transgender disabled lesbian faction demands a hearing on its needs-but never satirised enough. You have to have seen it really happen. From a way of being radical it very swiftly became a way of being reactionary; the Clarence Thomas hearings demonstrated this to all but the most dense and boring and selfish, but then, it was the dense and boring and selfish who had always seen identity politics as their big chance. Anyway, what you swiftly realise if you peek over the wall of your own immediate neighbourhood or environment, and travel beyond it, is, first, that we have a huge surplus of people who wouldn't change anything about the way they were born, or the group they were born into, but second that "humanity" (and the idea of change) is best represented by those who have the wit not to think, or should I say feel, in this way.”
Thank you for this brilliant conversation and for showing the deeper side of identity politics, the side that could not be hijacked by the "patrician," or should I say performative, neo-left which has instead managed to outshout any rational discourse and obfuscate the very principles of identity politics, among every other important issue btw. Overjoyed by this discussion. We need to reclaim this conversation, not by shouting back but by keeping steady.
With respect to Barbara Smith and Mel King, Jessie Jackson took the name "Rainbow Coalition" from Fred Hampton who first coined it in 1968. Fred Hampton was then, of course, assassinated by the Chicago PD in cooperation with the FBI. Which goes to show the power of organizing a coalition across identitarian lines. After all, Hoover's FBI understood the power that sort of coalition could have and feared it for a reason.
Hampton was shot and killed because he was the head of a terrorist group which ambushed and murdered police officers. It was in response to cops being lured to a false call and ambushed by a group of Black Panthers. 2 cops were killed and 7 others injured.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 He was a US citizen and if he was at all involved in the killing of those police officers he had a right to a fair trial, not shot in his own bed. Sanctioning politically motivated assassinations is reprehensible.
@@toml1105 Sanctioning politically motivated assassinations is exactly what Fred Hampton did lmao. Those murdered cops had a right to not be murdered. Heroising murderers is also reprehensible.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 Can you conclusively prove his involvement in the conspiracy to commit those murders, beyond a shadow of a doubt? The answer is no because he was deprived a trial and was extrajudicially executed by the police. As with the recent string of murders committed by the police- when agents of the state resort to vigilante violence all of society is deprived justice. Furthermore, we must hold the state to a higher standard of accountability than private, non-state, actors as the state acts as the guarantor of our safety; which is the bedrock of the social contract. Once that is no longer the case, how can we expect to live in a stable and just society?
Such a perfect program. Identity politics does not change ANYTHING about the current power structure. That is why it was allowed to flourish and even encouraged. Not only in the US, is Europe and Latin America the only protests allowed were for identity politics, class protests were supressed.
The result of identity politics, failure in every other sphere of politics. Zero gain on universal health care, losses in equal access to democracy, losses in equal access to justice, foreign policy run by the war industrial complex, a divided society. Those are real and those are the result of the empty focus on identity drama queen politics, serving nothing but corporate interests and used as a distraction for all other policies. There is no identity in a living wage, the identity is used to distract from fighting for a living wage. There is no identity in equal access by the definition the goal is equal for all, not empty focus on all possible variations, equal for all, justice and democracy.
Those failures weren't a result of identity politics. Those failures are a result of rulers and owners of this current system not giving a eff about the needs of people. And that most people who do not engage with any type of analysis at all.. are ignorant and racist POS BY CHOICE. We don't have universal healthcare because gay black disabled women want to be heard understood and recognized in society... we don't have universal healthcare because ignorant and racist Americans don't want each other to. The only type of person who would say that identity politics is and was and will be a failure.. is the person that identity politics is yelling about against.. White cis-het middle to upper class men. They are the only one not really allowed to have a leftist identity politic. And instead of understanding why and dismantling that... yall want to tear down everyone else's struggles and issues. The point of identity politics is to have access to why everyone is struggling to come up with a solution that helps us all together. It's hard to help us all.. when you only want what you want.. Universal health care and higher wages... we know..But what after that? You gonna fight with us.. after the system gives you what you want?
See, that’s true intellectual honesty and integrity, when you hear someone, understand their perspective , feel changed by it and admit that you’ve been corrected. Thank you Katie for having these important minds on your show.
This was such a great discussion, very informative. Really appreciated the good faith on everyone’s part. It would be great to invite this panel on again to discuss prescriptions for combatting the weaponized identity politics of the establishment.
I would say two big trends have blunted real progressive leftism. One, the identity politics stuff, since it can be so easily co-opted by the DP. Second, labor aristocracy--as if longshoreman strikes for people who get 200 dollar per hour at work, or pro athletes, or autoworkers represented by pro-war DP labor 'leaders' are real labor activism.
Obviously this is AI generated! I mean how can there be a thoughtful, nuanced and intelligent conversation between 'diverse leftists"! This manner of sorcery has not been seen since the Salem witch trials! Keep up the good work! Any student of history will know that good, honest movements have more often been subverted and perverted rather than defeated head on.
“Capitalism and racism . . . did not break from the old order but rather evolved from it to produce a modern world system of ‘racial capitalism’ dependent on slavery, violence, imperialism, and genocide. Capitalism was ‘racial’ not because of some conspiracy to divide workers or justify slavery and dispossession, but because racialism had already permeated Western feudal society - Cedric Robinson. The labor movement in the U.S. will remain on life support until the white proletariat (Bernie supporters) can secure the resolve to mobilize against all forms of oppression instead of organizing SOLELY against a specific type of class oppression that affects them. Their refusal to embrace this much more expansive struggle speaks volumes about of their complicity and participation in these other types of oppression.
You know, you're right. LIke Hillary said, breaking up the banks won't end racism. And it's not like black people have anything to gain from Medicare for All, a mandatory living wage, aggressive tax reform, ending wars, climate action, or containing corporate greed. How racist of the Sanders left to focus on programs that benefit everyone.
Yeah, it's not like black people have anything to gain from Medicare for All, a mandatory living wage, preserving social programs, aggressive tax reform, climate action, or ending wars. Curse that racist Sanders left! Like Hillary said, breaking up the banks won't end racism!
You know, you're right. There's really nothing black people gain from Medicare for All, a mandatory living wage, protecting social programs, aggressive tax reform, climate action, or ending wars. Like Hillary said, breaking up the banks won't end racism!
Yes, surely every literate person knows that only white people gain from Medicare for All, a higher minimum wage, free college tuition, aggressive tax reform, climate action and a non-interventionist foreign policy. Like that paragon of civil rights, Hillary Clinton once said, breaking up the banks won't end racism! .
Identity politics is divisive. All groups of people deserve to be included in society. No groups should be higher than other groups. It is not a competition among marginal groups for who is the most oppressed and therefore deserves the most resources and inclusion.
Looking at different groups within the working class is beneficial in understanding the make up of it. Yes, different races and ethnicity's have different lived experiences and its enlightening to discuss these things. The problem is that these differences have been magnified to the extent of fracturing the working class. Norman is right that the working class should trump all. Bernie is correct that identity politics is divisive, however he is on board with reparations for his people. We need to focus on going forward, not making amends for past injustices of our ancestors. Debt is not passed on from father to son anymore, we progressed from that.
My issue with Robin (and Norman to a minor degree) is that he construes class analysis as EXCLUDING identity politics. He has it the wrong way around: it is rather than contemporary identity politics that has come to exclude class, which is what can unite differing identities and sites of struggle. The class analysis objection is precisely this one - it's not amorphous. The reason, I would offer, is that identity politics as a label has been subtly co-opted by the capitalist class, and serves as a powerful divide and conquer strategy, as it has divested the term of its original meaning, and its original attempt to draw attention to racial and sexual oppression. It also appears to paint those who give a class analysis as not being sufficiently concerned about identity oppression ('the questions' as Norman refers to it), that could not be further from the truth. The caveat here is that this is an exclusively anglophonic conversation - perhaps an exclusively American conversation, where class analysis has always been understood in a slightly cruder way than elsewhere.
Agreed. The class-identity dichotomy is a false one since “class” is itself the exploitative logic by which identity-based oppressions interact in a capitalist society. There is no “pure” exploitation without identity being already baked into it.
This is the kind of debate I enjoy watching. As fun as it is to listen to Norman spitting facts at some genocide apologist, this seems more productive. Respectful conversations where people come to an understanding of where the other side is at. Good shit
A great convo, Norman really gave great examples & I love Barbara Smith's responses. Idk if people can "feel" it but they seem to be 2 real genuine people that are in it for the progress of change, no BS. Just straight to it, thats what I feel with them. Solidarity to you all my brothers & sisters.
I like the people on this panel, especially Barbara Smith and Norm Finkelstein. But I'd be scared to have Finkelstein on with the other guests, if only because he can be a bit pugnacious. This ended up being a thoughtful and productive conversation though. Kudos to Katie Halper for bringing the guests together
@@cockoffgewgle4993 I don’t think he’s being a simp at all. That’s not something he does, even when strongly challenged or flattered. He’s admitting he didn’t know something because he’s not a narcissistic coward who cannot do that
@@abe8435 He seldom debates women. Most old men are traditionalist simps and go easy on women. Otherwise he'd call out Smith's vacuity and the fact identity politics was poisonous from the outset. There's no distinction between Smith and Robin DiAngelo. It's the same ideology.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 He takes it easy on women? Look up the video “girl cries to criticize Dr. Norman Finkelstein” on RUclips. How would he lay into Smith when she said something (demonstrably factual) that contradicted a claim he’d just made. He’d just look needlessly argumentative and defensive. Barbara Smith’s work is even remotely like Robin DiAngelo’s? Smith has spent her life working on issues that actually materially affect working class women, organized against wars and campus recruitment, reproductive rights, prison reform, violence, and health care. DiAngelo runs corporate seminars centered on instilling white guilt in corporate atmospheres to protect corporations from discrimination lawsuits. Unlike the reflexively “Anti-Woke”, Finkelstein admits when he hasn’t read something.
@@abe8435 He didn't make her cry, she was crying when she asked her "question". A man and the crowd then interceded and Finkelstein responded to them. Nice and complete misrepresentation of reality. What did Smith say that was factual and contradicted a claim he made? I only watched the first 5 minutes because she was talking so much woke, abstract shit that I couldn't bear it. I fact-checked her first claim and found it to be laughable. Okay, lets pick through your nonsense. The first thing she was notable for, as she says, was spinning 11 women (one white, 10 black) by both black and white men into a "racist, misogynistic" crime. Do explain how that is working for working class people. "Reproductive rights" is woke, misandrist identity politics. It doesn't materially benefit the working class in any way. She's notable for being a "feminist" and "black" and a "lesbian". That is the sum total of her work. She didn't do shit to campaign against the Vietnam War but infiltrate existing groups and poison them with her divisive identity politics. Eventually leading to their nullification and collapse. Which is why there was no effective campaign against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and why the US has been the world's biggest terrorist for the last 40 years. It's literally the same ideology. It's like comparing the Pope to Jesse Lee Peterson. What matters most is *my* "identity, *my* feelings, *my* abstract thoughts and beliefs, *my* counter-reality ideology. In 1965 she joined the Civil Actions Group, which was protesting the Vietnam War. But not long after: "After graduating from Mount Holyoke, Smith took a break from front-line activism, where she felt constrained by her identity as a woman in the Black nationalist movement.[17] For a time, she reasoned that she could help advance racial justice by working within the academy. But after attending a meeting of the National Black Feminist Organization (NBFO), she reentered the sphere of activism and began collaborating with many notable women of color." Gee, what was her focus. Not preventing the genocide of millions in Vietnam, but being a black feminist. 90% of her "work" is identity politics trash. Which is not only empty work, it's actively destructive to material politics. As the last 45 years have shown.
We are whole and one in our humanity, yet the illusions of what divides exist. When transgender people demand rights and equality of status and in the law the public reaction isn't " they are a part of us they are granted their democratic rights". No, they are attacked instead, universalism doesn't apply to them or other minorities who are defined by racism, sexism, homophobia etc. by the establishment. We must deal with the heterogenous within the whole, the diversity within the whole. That is not a threat to the class struggle but should inform it.
It's just white people that get incredibly defensive when the rights of minorities are discussed and the acknowledgement of colonialism and Empire that promotes division historically. We all just want equality but wrongs must be righted along the way for healing.
@@stoa7302 Name some laws and policies which discriminate against "transgender" people, gays, non-whites or women in the west today. "That is not a threat to the class struggle but should inform it." It is, because most of the working class think gender ideology is insane.
@@charlenek11 Equality laws already exist. If an individual is discriminated against on any of those grounds they can sue. They have to prove those things though, they can't be assumed, which is what you're doing and advocating. Assuming those things is literally thoughtcrime territory.
I have no issue with someone who speaks on these issues authentically. I just don’t like when it is cynically weaponized to attack candidates like Bernie who are working to make a change. It is very easy for it to be twisted into something that helps neoliberalism. But if you’re you’re speaking from a place of honestly and integrity im all for that
It wasn't the identity politics intellectuals that killed Bernie's campaigns, they don't have a constituency. It was the corporate democratic wing of the party that killed Bernie 's campaigns the fix was from the inside both times. They didn't want a radical left populist running for office representing their half of the unified " business party".
Norm is out of his depth. To dismiss intersectionality as a redundancy even as he says in the same breath that conceptualisations of class/identity struggles needed clarifying and building upon. That’s what a lot of scholarly work is- building upon previous works. I’m sorry but he has a lot of hubris to try to sweep this conversation away instead of staying with the combahee river collective. Norman lacks the humility in this area to hold any real intellectual curiosity about the nuance within these movements.
It was always wrong, class is the correct way forward. There was never a black women getting murdered in Boston issue. Working people, black, male, white, female, and so on, were getting murdered. And most people were not- they were getting nickle and dimed.
Self interest is a powerful thing so those of us focused on class must allow ourselves and others to express themselves if they feel their identity is under threat and support them when we agree in hopes they will be there for the class struggle as well. Same when we reach out to people on the right. They may be animated by lots of stuff we don't agree with but we should support them on things we do agree with and hope they will be there more on class issues. These relationships between people and movements can probably alleviate some of our harshness in the process.
Absolutely not. Don't indulge these rich narcissists. Identity politics has destroyed the left and will continue to do so. "If they feel their identity is under threat". Wtf does this even mean? Feelings aren't self-justifying. Your skin colour shouldn't be a part of your identity. And your sexuality shouldn't be a major part of your identity.
He says he's been corrected, but I don't see how. There has never been any conflict between class and identity politics. As Norman points out, the two were there together from the beginning. The problem comes when one ignores the other. Class analysis is problematic when it ignores identity oppression. And identity politics is problematic when it ignores class. Perhaps the sense in which he's claiming to be corrected is insofar as he believed that the entire identity politics movement rejected class. Which Barbara Smith proves is not the case.
The "Left" is not monolithic. My first political actions were to organize Earth Day activities for the first Earth Day and Anti-Vietnam Protests. I am Japanese-America and often felt outside of racial politics even though I was always empathetic towards disadvantaged minority groups.. I grew up in Detroit. I've always thought that the status of Indigenous peoples, and descendants of slave status, was more important than race. or color. Meeting people from Africa in college supported that. I live in Minneapolis now and my Early Election work puts me in touch with the Somali community. They are impressively organized politically and like to vote at the Early Election Center where I work. Look at Obama and Harris: Their Fathers we African, and Jamaican/Irish (whose ancestors owned slaves) of the Academic Class. As a Working Class college educated person I found that Harris ignored speaking to the Working Class. I would have liked to see Bernie Sanders at Harris's rallies. Toward the end of MLK's life, he saw that class was more important than race. If you focused on the poor and working classes, you help both poor white and black people. Help the working class, and the descendants of Slaves and Native people. That is how you directly address the problem. MLK jr was killed after attending the Sanitation Strike in in Memphis.
No he didn't. None of them disputed that his critique of Kendi et al was sound. But apparently he's a bad boy for not including Smith in his book, even though she seems proud of her obscurity and is entirely ignored by the people NF did write about. Finkelstein's fawning at the end, simply because Smith didn't become a grifter herself, was entirely unwarranted. But it's the kind of bowing and scraping expected of white leftists any time a black person looks sideways at them.
It doesn't matter what was initially intended when identify politics is was being formed, it matters what it has become, and understanding that the results are inescapable, because identity is divisive by its own definition
While Norm's argument highlights the importance of class analysis, it's crucial to recognize that identity politics is equally significant. Identity politics addresses the unique experiences and systemic challenges faced by marginalized groups, which are often overlooked in class-only analyses. Ignoring identity politics serves the interests of the white capitalist patriarchy by maintaining existing power structures and diverting attention from the intersectional nature of oppression. By focusing solely on class, we risk perpetuating the very inequalities we aim to dismantle. Both identity and class analyses are essential for a comprehensive understanding of systemic issues and for fostering true equity and justice. Also Kendi's Stamped From the Beginning provides a powerful analysis of the history of racist ideas used to justify racial oppression. Yes, the book doesn't critique capitalism, but it's racial analysis is powerfully important. And the book is well written. Frankly I don't care what Norm thinks about identity politics. His views on the subject are not insightful to me.
I'm an older white male and work for a private nonprofit social services provider. And the political harassment I've experienced there far exceeds anything I experienced in my previous career of 23 years. many of these young people think they are entitled to hold racist and bigoted attitudes while falsely accusing others of the same. I've been harassed for my politics which I have not shared with anyone. interestingly I'm far to the left of my accusers and tormentors. Last week one of the new female employees was loudly carrying on about a particular employer that Hires Way Too Many toxic males this is completely against our guidelines and our values yet these people feel entitled to speak this way in front of everybody else it's really really profoundly stupid
![Understanding Marxism: Q&A with Richard D. Wolff [June 2019]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eU-AkeOyiOQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Katie deserves roses for putting this together. Sophisticated dialogue and debate that we can all learn from. Not many conversations on this topic worth watching, but this one is and more!
You just gained another subscriber, congrats.
The Chinese government approved of this comment, bruh? Lol
I think the difference between idpol now and idpol back in Barbara's day is that there used to be an actual organised working class movement - pointing out how capitalism also uniquely affects black people, women etc was obviously a powerful corrective. In the absence of class politics, it's just rhetoric which allows people to feel radical without having to really do anything.
Even worse it's just a way for privileged people who happen to be any of the protected classes to enrich themselves often on the backs of the working class.
No it didn't, it never was. It piggy-backed on the back of organised working class movements which already existed and were effective. Then took them over and destroyed them.
@@catocall7323 I occasionally help two very wealthy friends in Marin county California at there 2 million dollars home. They both have a privileged left perspective but almost entirely rely on Maddow for the news.
My friends wife, will not even remotely entertain most working class struggle issues. Her perspective is entirely that the problems of society are because of racism. I can’t describe the whole story.
But it gets worse. When she hires a person of color to help with a dinner party etc. she will say in front of them “I am such a spoiled white woman.”
Which is I guess, I suppose an admission of the proverbial “white guilt”. Her workers have to drive from 30 miles away because they can’t even afford to live in the same community.
But she will also say things like, “the Ukrainians are sacrificing their lives so war will never have to be fought again.”
And any criticism I may have of capitalism is met with, “What’s wrong with capitalism!”
She is actually a friend of Robyn DiAngelo and a corporate consultant who gets DiAngelo hired across the country for corporate trainings.
From what I can see this is not merely vanity politics for her. It is truly a politics designed to do nothing substantial for any working class people of any ethnicity.
That fundamental disconnection from real politics coupled with the Democrat party's newly embraced authoritarianism, censorship and utilization of federal law enforcement to attack dissidents and enforce narratives, have in effect abolished our civil liberties.
@@matthewkopp2391This is too rich, it reads like satire
YES! Norman Finkelstein has hit the nail on the head. He exhibits zero intellectual dishonesty and no wilful ignorance, which is common practice to many on the left side of the fence. Thank you Norman, I wish more were like you.
No willful ignorance? Why had he not read Barbara's work on the subject before publishing his book?
When I pointed out Barbara Smith's lack of honesty on a previous clip posted of her, her response was to gaslight me with nonsense.
When I pointed this out and debunked her gaslighting, she didn't respond. Even went over to Twitter to point out that she is effectively a mass murderer, being a surrogate for a Biden surrogate.
She is a deeply unserious person.
Barbara Smith also gets it, but it seems like she doesn't understand the extent that the left has been hijacked. Progressive college students are mostly fans of Robin DiAngelo.
@TCt83067695 probably the book isn't about her...
@@TCt83067695 Because it's meaningless to his goal of exposing the top identity politic peddlers as frauds. A better question is why would he read or quote her.
Much respect for Barbara Smith and Norman Finkelstein
Amazing, amazing discussion! Great and real intellectuals are humble. It is a feast of ideas that just blows your mind in this otherwise age of mindless, brain-crushing Mainstream's saturation of ether with their boring, predictable and dis honest commentary. What a breath of fresh air! Thanks Katie for putting this together!
Katie has a genius for getting the most important intellectual minds together to discuss the most relevant issues, I'm really grateful for this. Real intellectual integrity on display here, these people are not posers who shift their principles to accommodate and retain standing in the liberal class
But why is this conversation only being held in 2025. The Intellectual dishonesty of Identity politics has undermined class-based progressive movement for the last 10 years, overreaching and proving fuel for MAGA rightwing populist reaction
As Barbara recollects certain organising successes back in the 1970s, it would be good if all the disccussants, Norman included, start from the recognition that ‘the left’ has failed comprehensively and entirely over the last 50 years. Asking why should be the basis of discussion. That is not to say that identity politics is solely responsible for this failure, but for either side-pro-identity politics/anti-identity politics-to nitpick between them and count their own small successes, is to engage in a delusion. The fact is the last 50 years has been an unrelenting counter revolution, culminating in a situation in which the left already finds itself cheerleading the project for the next 50 years of ruling class accumulation and control-for “green” imperialism and pandemic shock doctrines.
Well stated. These respected intellectuals must call out the failed politics of the past half century. Some of their full-on denigration of Bernie and embrace of Biden doomed a united workers movement for the next 50 years.
But the idpolers haven't failed at all, they've been hugely successful. To the point where systemic discrimination against whites, men and straight people is ubiquitous. Gay marriage has been won. And boys are being told they can become girls.
This is neoliberalism. Right wing economics and "left wing" social policy. We keep moving "left" socially and right economically. And that's what we've seen for the last 45 years. And people like Smith, though she won't say it, wouldn't trade these social changes for universal healthcare, living wages, affordable housing or any class-based policies which would affect far more lives in far more positive ways.
The answer is simple: we are up against evil propagandists who know their stuff.
While one can't attribute leftist defeat to a single cause, certainly the most important one is the Democratic Party which is a near perfect instrument for insuring that genuine progressives never get anywhere near state power.This is its main purpose.
No left can get anywhere near state power with the Democratic Party in the way. That's its whole purpose.
Always love seeing Norm!
Barbara Smith is an icon, founding member of the Combahee River Collective.
The Combahee River Collective Statement was developed by a "collective of Black feminists...involved in the process of defining and clarifying our politics, while...doing political work within our own group and in coalition with other progressive organizations and movements..."
The Combahee River Collective Statement was separated into four chapters: The Genesis of Contemporary Black Feminism; What We Believe; Problems in Organizing Black Feminists; and Black Feminist Issues and Projects.
Norman Finkelstein is an intellectual juggernaut. This man is always a joy to listen to. What an incredible mind.
As a 71 year old, I am sad that people of this generation aren't THURSTY for HISTORY!
I agree. And it's disturbing when younger people shout that boomers have wrecked it all, etc, etc, without realizing that the generational divides are erroneous - the root of societal troubles lies in the power divide: who's capable of creating policy* and why**.
(Business and political leaders*/wealth**)
@@jaykay415 Excellent statement. An example was the anti-semitism of Dave Chappelle , Kyrie Irving, Kanye West. It was a shock to me that they received so much support from young people who sincerely believed the trio were telling hard truths!! As a 58 year old that shocked me. But the young don't have any knowledge of history only the hear and now of digital.
@@stoa7302 When has Dave Chappelle been anti-semitic? He is an intellectual giant in contrast to West + Irving, and is a comedian to boot. Not everything he says is a radical belief
I'm 26 and I hate that lack of appreciation of history. I think there is a war by capital on information generally.
A part of the class war we all face is the elite tactic to alienate us from even OUR own history to divide, to factionalize us into bickering groups
Norman did a great job further clarifying his position and he’s right - identity politics has blunted the radicalism previously inherent in the left and reduced critical thought to reflexive personalized urges to attack those who don’t suscribe to woke folks’ uninformed sensibilities. Identity politics divorced the real time practical application of the class question from all other questions of oppression and marginalization
Ideas like identity politics that are generated in academic institutions usually fail as soon as they leave the academy and have to fend for themselves on the streets.
@@GregoryWonderwheel The people are bound to reject ideas that are divorces from their lived experience. Such ideas often find a home in the corporate swamp
Right wingers think concern for the plight of the working class is “woke” identity politics. By letting them demonize empathy/the Golden Rule you’re just helping them avoid taking responsibility for their relentless support of predatory capitalism. They think taking care of the poor becomes IP when the poor happen to be black.
@@gauravtejpal8901 IDpol has proven invaluable to elites for dividing the working class.
Brilliant discussion. So pleased to hear this meeting of minds between Barbara and Norman.
Norman Finkelstein has been, and remains, one of my intellectual heroes.
Norman is the Mensch! Kudos to All!
Wow. Thank you Katie. Thank you.
Very cool. Thank you for organizing this, Katie. 🥳
Norman F. is so right here. The whole point of Socialism is solidarity on an across-the-board programme where pressing single issues are as well-served as every other, upon the basis of equity - not 'special treatment.' Individual Leftists throwing a Socialist or Social Dem. under the proverbial bus, because they don't specialise in your - or my - particular cause, is entirely self-defeating.
Economic equity is good. Identity politics equity is very much not.
A bit ironic given Finkelstein's uncanny ability to alienate everyone, including most of those fighting for Palestinian rights, the cause he was once associated with. These days, you're more likely to hear him ranting about "wokeism" in the style of Ron DeSantis.
I've had the opposite experience. More often, people who decry "identity politics" are racist, sexist, transphobic, etc., and use it as a reason to ignore these oppressions and focus only on the economic side. They don't realize that particular oppressions require particular remedies. Or they'll go so far as to deny these other forms of oppression exist. Which they obviously do. And it DOES matter because for example, women need to organize with each other not only as socialists. Because men have power over women and we need to organize women to combat male supremacy.
You are so right-this infighting and devotion to single issue politics is a big part of why the Left is so weak and divided today.
This is awesome! Thanks for getting all these people together.
Thank you soooo much Katie
Katie - you have a unique abilty to bring together people who have important things to say to the world. Your interview style brings out the best in them. I greatly appreciate you!
Wow!! We need more of this sort of discourse. Thank you.
Finkelstein is a true hero ❤❤❤
Sometimes saying "thank you" isn't sufficient for the gift offered, but it's all can say to all of you. I am so grateful for what the four of you just did for everyone else. And Barbara, you changed my mind entirely on identity politics, which I guess isn't that hard once the story of its actual invention is heard accurately and honestly. May I say, Spivak's "Can the subaltern speak?" and her discussion of sati makes the same basic argument for the same basic reasons. Somehow I could see that one but not the US one because of what identity politics has become in popular contemporary discourse: a cudgel of the powerful.
She has a patreon.
I love all these people! Fantastic and important discussion we wouldn’t find anywhere else. Thank you Katie.
I understand & appreciate that identity politics of the past was groundbreaking, powerful and instigated great change. But unfortunately, today, it is mostly aggressive, negative messaging, destructive and polarises issues to the point where flaws are denied. When indentity pols double down, and don't respond to the crazy shite in their camp... You then lose control of the response and end up giving the control of the response to the people who would push back in the worst possible way. When you overuse words to guilt people by association, shut down debate and continue to refuse to work or listen to each other ... There is no way forward. Progressive/conservative/left/right. Division is deep. And we need a holistic way of dealing with issues that includes all people from all walks of life together. Why? Because not everyone's priorities are the same. They never will be. A good policy would be one with a diversity of ideas to suit all priorities
More than that, in the last 5 years or so, Academic racial and gender studies have degraded into blatant anti-white racism and anti-straight male sexism. The effect is to sow division, distract from class, and pour gas on the fire. Thus you start getting phenomena like Donald Moss publishing a paper in a major psychology journal about how white babies are parasites and white people are sociopaths afflicted with "whiteness".
Yea... these two seem to be stuck in the past while Norman is talking about the reality of the Present.
Huge disconnect between what it used to mean in the past kr what they want it to mean, and what it means in reality today in the present.
The "identity politics" of the past was fighting for genuine, transformative policies, in some respects. Today it isn't in any way. It's fighting for power and narcissism. And converts to very little policy. And the policy it does convert to is poisonous and discriminatory (ie "diversity" policies and affirmative action).
When you encounter idpol the best question to ask is "what policies are you advocating for?".
The fundamental problem with it is that it's antithetical to class politics in a couple of key ways. Firstly, it deals mainly with abstractions, while class politics deals mainly with material reality. It also argues that minorities are more important than majorities, and the concerns of the minority should trump the concerns of the majority-- even when said concerns are trivial compared to the concerns of the latter.
eg in "lefty" circles you get cancelled for saying "trans" women are not women. But don't get cancelled for saying "universal healthcare doesn't work". So having a belief which could offend 0.0001% of the population is heresy, but having a belief which deprived tens of millions of people of healthcare is acceptable. When you think about the reality of it it's absurd and untenable. And easy to observe how it has destroyed the left.
I think its fair for the left to be skeptical of identity politics as its been coopted by corporations and mainstream neoliberal politicos to keep class divorced from politics. But at the same time just like we can criticize neoliberalism for engaging in race/cultural reductionism I think its fair to say that the left has over corrected and become class reductionist and that that is actively undermining its efforts.
I think the left as a whole, and Norm in particular, is a little too dismissive towards identity politics. Identity is the core of politics and expecting POCs in America to abandon their self-interest to further the politics of a movement that has historically overlooked and pushed their interest to the margins is not an effective way to build a coalition.
Furthermore, I think dismissing those criticisms of the Bernie campaign instead of taking it as honest feedback is a mistake. We should be looking to build bridges across intersectional lines and look to advance the interests of marginalized groups. Will that turn people off? Sure, but that is the whole art of coaltion building. You need to build a compelling platform that speaks to people and encourages them to engage. Not demand conformity and slander those not compelled for lacking solidarity.
Right--in 1972 when I was 17, ID politics was eye opening and created pathways for me to engage with the world politically. The so-called ID politics of today does the opposite. It fails at politics and serves to undermine organizing and empowering the people. I consider it a scourge.
I wish Robin Kelley and Barbara Smith would speak more directly about how identity politics has been hijacked so that we can all get a better understanding of the distinction between the liberal identity politics of Robin Diangelo and the radical identity politics of the Combahee River Collective.
Agreed. I came into this discussion much more on Norm's side, and like him don't think I had a good understanding of what Barbara's conception of identity politics was and is.
It's understandable that she would want it to mean what she meant by it when she originally used it, yet almost everyone outside a narrow sliver of academia and activism *only* know it in the Kendi/DiAngelo version.
Robin and Barbara seem to be avoiding admitting that the term has been hijacked, as if by not acknowledging it it won't be true, but the train left that station years ago. It's unfortunate that they have to, but if they want to be understood by a wider audience they have to make that point up front and repeatedly or gets confused for the modern version.
We don’t need to be spending time debating if we should exclude identity politics because it’s been bastardized, but rather take what the original intent of identity politics and adapt it to the issues of our times and reclaim the intention of identity politics… because, regardless of your favor or disinterest in identity, identity is fundamentally part of our nature, and also fundamentally what gets exploited and oppressed. So we must adapt identity politics against the establishment. The establishment has taken our leftist weapons to fight it and forged their own weapons out of identity politics and woke and are using it against us to crush the left today.
@@Goldun-nahEXCELLENT comment. When you say " we must adapt identity politics against the establishment" that was Barbara and the 60's and 70's intent. Working class whites, blacks, women, Native Americans, the student movement all had individual or group goals but it was understood that it was a revolutionary change time period in which all would find their rights. Remember that the 70's was the most egalitarian time in U.S. history. Its in that back drop that identity politics was forged in a period of optimism and progressive ideals seen as inevitable even the silent majority accepted. The 80's marked a back lash whose fierceness has only intensified with the maturity of the power of Capital which is now totalitarian like, and which adopts white male Christian nationalist authoritarianism to condemn identity politics.
It hasn't been hijacked. This is what it was from the outset and it what it was always designed to be.
I'm at 6:50 and stopped to research the murders she mentions. The first thing of note is that one of the victims was a white woman. The second thing to note is that the names of the (alleged) killers does not receive top billing, and the respective races of the killers is not mentioned, in the Wikipedia article at least. Want to guess why?
The man arrested for the first two murders was named Dennis Jamal Porter.
The man arrested for the murder of a 15 year old girl was named James Brown.
Another woman was allegedly killed by a man who lived with her named Eugene B. Conway.
It's hard to find details about the killers, but these men don't sound like white guys, based on their names. A couple of the killings weren't solved. Weird that it's hard to find any details about the killers but you can find numerous articles pushing the identity politics of the killings. "Black women killed". Which is the point, isn't it? That's what racist, sexist ideologues like Smith want. It's narrative over facts every time.
How can this woman argue that this approach brings people together? It so obviously does the opposite.
And how many men were being murdered at this time? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was at least 3 times as many. So why would you approach the murders of black and white women by both black and white men as a "black women's" issue, when far more men (and black men) are being murdered? Because narcissism. *My* identity is what matters. *My* identity group having more power is what matters. *My* identity group being the bigger victims is what matters.
@@Goldun-nah The only people exploiting and oppressing identity groups today are the neoliberal identity politicians, like Smith. The fact that corporations wholeheartedly embrace identity politics tells you everything you need to know about how destructive they are.
Amazing! Great to see lots of learning happening in real time. It’s also great to hear how useful identity politics is when it is used in good faith to build community. I think the Democratic Party and other corporations use identity politics to further divide people and make it harder for people to organize against management
Great stuff Katie. These conversations are desperately needed.
Well said by all. A very nuanced conversation
Thank you so much for this, Katie.
There is a serious disconnect here - Barbara and her side didn't win the fight, historically speaking. What she is saying has no relevance now. Identity Politics became something else. What Norm is talking about is the present. Address what the subject is now, not what you wish it had become.
Yeah I find her take egocentric. She more or less admits she's obscure and is never invited to the cool kids parties. So why would Norm include her in a book that is about the state of things now.
amazing debate! Prof Finklestein dropping some serious knowledge bombs at the end!
I'm guessing you're not into the whole brevity thing?
Fantastic thank you so much for organizing and posting this
One of the best conversations here! Thanks, Katie!
I don't know how I managed to miss this conversation for a whole year but it was amazing. Thank you so much for putting this together, Katie. I don't think NF really took it in but I'm glad it's here.
This was a great exchange its so refreshing to listen to debate at this level being conducted in such a civil fashion. I do hope that people are as inspired and heartened by this as I am
I second all the laudatory comments on this discussion. Thank you, Katie and thanks to the panelists.
Thank you, this is so good 👌🏼💜
The fact that they successfully organised something with a variety of others trips does not explain the value of identify politics - it explains the value of small group organisation and coalition. He makes a very good point: identity stripped from class components is dangerous. And obviously hijacked by the elites.
Quite true.
What a beautiful thing to see the grace and elegance with which Katie brings together these allies!
How wonderful to hear Barbara discuss the remarkable movement-building history of the Combahee River Collective. And of the foundational role it played in the historic mayoral campaign of Mel King, who just died last week at the age of 94. What an important discussion with such esteemed guests - once again, Katie the mensch knocks it out of the park!
@7:43
"The Combahee River Collective (CRC) (/kəmˈbiː/ kəm-BEE)[1] was a Black feminist lesbian socialist organization active in Boston, Massachusetts from 1974 to 1980.[2][3] The Collective argued that both the white feminist movement and the Civil Rights Movement were not addressing their particular needs as Black women and more specifically as Black lesbians"
Lmao.
It brings to mind Christopher Hitchens' thoughts on identity politics:
“Since this often seems to come up in discussions of the radical style, I'll mention one other gleaning from my voyages. Beware of Identity politics. I'll rephrase that: have nothing to do with identity politics. I remember very well the first time I heard the saying "The Personal Is Political." It began as a sort of reaction to defeats and downturns that followed 1968: a consolation prize, as you might say, for people who had missed that year. I knew in my bones that a truly Bad Idea had entered the discourse. Nor was I wrong. People began to stand up at meetings and orate about how they 'felt', not about what or how they thought, and about who they were rather than what (if anything) they had done or stood for.
It became the replication in even less interesting form of the narcissism of the small difference, because each identity group begat its sub-groups and "specificities." This tendency has often been satirised-the overweight caucus of the Cherokee transgender disabled lesbian faction demands a hearing on its needs-but never satirised enough. You have to have seen it really happen. From a way of being radical it very swiftly became a way of being reactionary; the Clarence Thomas hearings demonstrated this to all but the most dense and boring and selfish, but then, it was the dense and boring and selfish who had always seen identity politics as their big chance.
Anyway, what you swiftly realise if you peek over the wall of your own immediate neighbourhood or environment, and travel beyond it, is, first, that we have a huge surplus of people who wouldn't change anything about the way they were born, or the group they were born into, but second that "humanity" (and the idea of change) is best represented by those who have the wit not to think, or should I say feel, in this way.”
Thank you for this brilliant conversation and for showing the deeper side of identity politics, the side that could not be hijacked by the "patrician," or should I say performative, neo-left which has instead managed to outshout any rational discourse and obfuscate the very principles of identity politics, among every other important issue btw. Overjoyed by this discussion. We need to reclaim this conversation, not by shouting back but by keeping steady.
With respect to Barbara Smith and Mel King, Jessie Jackson took the name "Rainbow Coalition" from Fred Hampton who first coined it in 1968. Fred Hampton was then, of course, assassinated by the Chicago PD in cooperation with the FBI. Which goes to show the power of organizing a coalition across identitarian lines. After all, Hoover's FBI understood the power that sort of coalition could have and feared it for a reason.
Right--that was my understanding as well.
Hampton was shot and killed because he was the head of a terrorist group which ambushed and murdered police officers. It was in response to cops being lured to a false call and ambushed by a group of Black Panthers. 2 cops were killed and 7 others injured.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 He was a US citizen and if he was at all involved in the killing of those police officers he had a right to a fair trial, not shot in his own bed. Sanctioning politically motivated assassinations is reprehensible.
@@toml1105 Sanctioning politically motivated assassinations is exactly what Fred Hampton did lmao. Those murdered cops had a right to not be murdered.
Heroising murderers is also reprehensible.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 Can you conclusively prove his involvement in the conspiracy to commit those murders, beyond a shadow of a doubt? The answer is no because he was deprived a trial and was extrajudicially executed by the police. As with the recent string of murders committed by the police- when agents of the state resort to vigilante violence all of society is deprived justice.
Furthermore, we must hold the state to a higher standard of accountability than private, non-state, actors as the state acts as the guarantor of our safety; which is the bedrock of the social contract. Once that is no longer the case, how can we expect to live in a stable and just society?
That was an amazing conversation! I learned a lot. Thanks Katie for hosting and to all of the guests!
Such a perfect program.
Identity politics does not change ANYTHING about the current power structure. That is why it was allowed to flourish and even encouraged.
Not only in the US, is Europe and Latin America the only protests allowed were for identity politics, class protests were supressed.
The result of identity politics, failure in every other sphere of politics. Zero gain on universal health care, losses in equal access to democracy, losses in equal access to justice, foreign policy run by the war industrial complex, a divided society. Those are real and those are the result of the empty focus on identity drama queen politics, serving nothing but corporate interests and used as a distraction for all other policies.
There is no identity in a living wage, the identity is used to distract from fighting for a living wage. There is no identity in equal access by the definition the goal is equal for all, not empty focus on all possible variations, equal for all, justice and democracy.
There's a reason corporate America went all in on identity politics (posturing). It's probably not because they give a hoot about those minorities.
Those failures weren't a result of identity politics. Those failures are a result of rulers and owners of this current system not giving a eff about the needs of people. And that most people who do not engage with any type of analysis at all.. are ignorant and racist POS BY CHOICE.
We don't have universal healthcare because gay black disabled women want to be heard understood and recognized in society... we don't have universal healthcare because ignorant and racist Americans don't want each other to.
The only type of person who would say that identity politics is and was and will be a failure.. is the person that identity politics is yelling about against..
White cis-het middle to upper class men.
They are the only one not really allowed to have a leftist identity politic. And instead of understanding why and dismantling that... yall want to tear down everyone else's struggles and issues.
The point of identity politics is to have access to why everyone is struggling to come up with a solution that helps us all together. It's hard to help us all.. when you only want what you want..
Universal health care and higher wages... we know..But what after that? You gonna fight with us.. after the system gives you what you want?
Based - imagine if the corporate media hacks calling themselves journalists did 1/10 of their jobs like this. Katie is a national treasure. ⭐️
The last minute made me cry.
See, that’s true intellectual honesty and integrity, when you hear someone, understand their perspective , feel changed by it and admit that you’ve been corrected. Thank you Katie for having these important minds on your show.
Love this so much
Great conversation
This was such a great discussion, very informative. Really appreciated the good faith on everyone’s part. It would be great to invite this panel on again to discuss prescriptions for combatting the weaponized identity politics of the establishment.
Love to see all these people smiling together
Good for her on having unbroken principles But it doesn't change Norman's main points of criticism.
Reductionism, class or identity, IS as reductionism DOES.
I love hearing conversations like this!
if there's a discussion between Robin D. Kelley and Adolph Reed, please let me know!
I would say two big trends have blunted real progressive leftism. One, the identity politics stuff, since it can be so easily co-opted by the DP. Second, labor aristocracy--as if longshoreman strikes for people who get 200 dollar per hour at work, or pro athletes, or autoworkers represented by pro-war DP labor 'leaders' are real labor activism.
Obviously this is AI generated!
I mean how can there be a thoughtful, nuanced and intelligent conversation between 'diverse leftists"! This manner of sorcery has not been seen since the Salem witch trials!
Keep up the good work! Any student of history will know that good, honest movements have more often been subverted and perverted rather than defeated head on.
“Capitalism and racism . . . did not break from the old order but rather evolved from it to produce a modern world system of ‘racial capitalism’ dependent on slavery, violence, imperialism, and genocide. Capitalism was ‘racial’ not because of some conspiracy to divide workers or justify slavery and dispossession, but because racialism had already permeated Western feudal society - Cedric Robinson.
The labor movement in the U.S. will remain on life support until the white proletariat (Bernie supporters) can secure the resolve to mobilize against all forms of oppression instead of organizing SOLELY against a specific type of class oppression that affects them. Their refusal to embrace this much more expansive struggle speaks volumes about of their complicity and participation in these other types of oppression.
Slavery ended 200 years ago. Get the fuck over it. No identity group is "oppressed" today. The only oppression is class oppression.
You know, you're right. LIke Hillary said, breaking up the banks won't end racism. And it's not like black people have anything to gain from Medicare for All, a mandatory living wage, aggressive tax reform, ending wars, climate action, or containing corporate greed. How racist of the Sanders left to focus on programs that benefit everyone.
Yeah, it's not like black people have anything to gain from Medicare for All, a mandatory living wage, preserving social programs, aggressive tax reform, climate action, or ending wars. Curse that racist Sanders left! Like Hillary said, breaking up the banks won't end racism!
You know, you're right. There's really nothing black people gain from Medicare for All, a mandatory living wage, protecting social programs, aggressive tax reform, climate action, or ending wars. Like Hillary said, breaking up the banks won't end racism!
Yes, surely every literate person knows that only white people gain from Medicare for All, a higher minimum wage, free college tuition, aggressive tax reform, climate action and a non-interventionist foreign policy. Like that paragon of civil rights, Hillary Clinton once said, breaking up the banks won't end racism! .
Thanks for the share ….. ✝️
"Okay, calm down!" LOL intro.
Identity politics is divisive. All groups of people deserve to be included in society. No groups should be higher than other groups. It is not a competition among marginal groups for who is the most oppressed and therefore deserves the most resources and inclusion.
this is what productive discourse looks like. props to everyone involved in this!
Thank you Dr. Finkelstein, you are a lighthouse in the dark! 👍
Looking at different groups within the working class is beneficial in understanding the make up of it. Yes, different races and ethnicity's have different lived experiences and its enlightening to discuss these things. The problem is that these differences have been magnified to the extent of fracturing the working class. Norman is right that the working class should trump all. Bernie is correct that identity politics is divisive, however he is on board with reparations for his people. We need to focus on going forward, not making amends for past injustices of our ancestors. Debt is not passed on from father to son anymore, we progressed from that.
My issue with Robin (and Norman to a minor degree) is that he construes class analysis as EXCLUDING identity politics. He has it the wrong way around: it is rather than contemporary identity politics that has come to exclude class, which is what can unite differing identities and sites of struggle. The class analysis objection is precisely this one - it's not amorphous. The reason, I would offer, is that identity politics as a label has been subtly co-opted by the capitalist class, and serves as a powerful divide and conquer strategy, as it has divested the term of its original meaning, and its original attempt to draw attention to racial and sexual oppression. It also appears to paint those who give a class analysis as not being sufficiently concerned about identity oppression ('the questions' as Norman refers to it), that could not be further from the truth. The caveat here is that this is an exclusively anglophonic conversation - perhaps an exclusively American conversation, where class analysis has always been understood in a slightly cruder way than elsewhere.
Agreed. The class-identity dichotomy is a false one since “class” is itself the exploitative logic by which identity-based oppressions interact in a capitalist society. There is no “pure” exploitation without identity being already baked into it.
I just love Norm. How can we get him in an elected office?
This is the kind of debate I enjoy watching. As fun as it is to listen to Norman spitting facts at some genocide apologist, this seems more productive. Respectful conversations where people come to an understanding of where the other side is at. Good shit
A great convo, Norman really gave great examples & I love Barbara Smith's responses. Idk if people can "feel" it but they seem to be 2 real genuine people that are in it for the progress of change, no BS. Just straight to it, thats what I feel with them. Solidarity to you all my brothers & sisters.
I love Norman ❤
I like the people on this panel, especially Barbara Smith and Norm Finkelstein. But I'd be scared to have Finkelstein on with the other guests, if only because he can be a bit pugnacious. This ended up being a thoughtful and productive conversation though. Kudos to Katie Halper for bringing the guests together
I wish he was pugnacious here. Instead of being a simp.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 I don’t think he’s being a simp at all. That’s not something he does, even when strongly challenged or flattered. He’s admitting he didn’t know something because he’s not a narcissistic coward who cannot do that
@@abe8435 He seldom debates women. Most old men are traditionalist simps and go easy on women. Otherwise he'd call out Smith's vacuity and the fact identity politics was poisonous from the outset. There's no distinction between Smith and Robin DiAngelo. It's the same ideology.
@@cockoffgewgle4993 He takes it easy on women? Look up the video “girl cries to criticize Dr. Norman Finkelstein” on RUclips.
How would he lay into Smith when she said something (demonstrably factual) that contradicted a claim he’d just made. He’d just look needlessly argumentative and defensive.
Barbara Smith’s work is even remotely like Robin DiAngelo’s? Smith has spent her life working on issues that actually materially affect working class women, organized against wars and campus recruitment, reproductive rights, prison reform, violence, and health care. DiAngelo runs corporate seminars centered on instilling white guilt in corporate atmospheres to protect corporations from discrimination lawsuits. Unlike the reflexively “Anti-Woke”, Finkelstein admits when he hasn’t read something.
@@abe8435 He didn't make her cry, she was crying when she asked her "question". A man and the crowd then interceded and Finkelstein responded to them. Nice and complete misrepresentation of reality.
What did Smith say that was factual and contradicted a claim he made?
I only watched the first 5 minutes because she was talking so much woke, abstract shit that I couldn't bear it. I fact-checked her first claim and found it to be laughable.
Okay, lets pick through your nonsense. The first thing she was notable for, as she says, was spinning 11 women (one white, 10 black) by both black and white men into a "racist, misogynistic" crime. Do explain how that is working for working class people.
"Reproductive rights" is woke, misandrist identity politics. It doesn't materially benefit the working class in any way.
She's notable for being a "feminist" and "black" and a "lesbian". That is the sum total of her work. She didn't do shit to campaign against the Vietnam War but infiltrate existing groups and poison them with her divisive identity politics. Eventually leading to their nullification and collapse. Which is why there was no effective campaign against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and why the US has been the world's biggest terrorist for the last 40 years.
It's literally the same ideology. It's like comparing the Pope to Jesse Lee Peterson. What matters most is *my* "identity, *my* feelings, *my* abstract thoughts and beliefs, *my* counter-reality ideology.
In 1965 she joined the Civil Actions Group, which was protesting the Vietnam War. But not long after:
"After graduating from Mount Holyoke, Smith took a break from front-line activism, where she felt constrained by her identity as a woman in the Black nationalist movement.[17] For a time, she reasoned that she could help advance racial justice by working within the academy. But after attending a meeting of the National Black Feminist Organization (NBFO), she reentered the sphere of activism and began collaborating with many notable women of color."
Gee, what was her focus. Not preventing the genocide of millions in Vietnam, but being a black feminist.
90% of her "work" is identity politics trash. Which is not only empty work, it's actively destructive to material politics. As the last 45 years have shown.
The language of suffering and injustice is a global human language, why does it have to be defined by color, creed or sexuality?!
We are whole and one in our humanity, yet the illusions of what divides exist. When transgender people demand rights and equality of status and in the law the public reaction isn't " they are a part of us they are granted their democratic rights". No, they are attacked instead, universalism doesn't apply to them or other minorities who are defined by racism, sexism, homophobia etc. by the establishment. We must deal with the heterogenous within the whole, the diversity within the whole. That is not a threat to the class struggle but should inform it.
It's just white people that get incredibly defensive when the rights of minorities are discussed and the acknowledgement of colonialism and Empire that promotes division historically. We all just want equality but wrongs must be righted along the way for healing.
@@stoa7302 Name some laws and policies which discriminate against "transgender" people, gays, non-whites or women in the west today.
"That is not a threat to the class struggle but should inform it."
It is, because most of the working class think gender ideology is insane.
Because some people get far more than their fair share of it because of color, creed, or sexuality. The problems need to be addressed simultaneously.
@@charlenek11 Equality laws already exist. If an individual is discriminated against on any of those grounds they can sue. They have to prove those things though, they can't be assumed, which is what you're doing and advocating. Assuming those things is literally thoughtcrime territory.
Man I love me some Norm. SPITTIN KNOWLEDGE
I have no issue with someone who speaks on these issues authentically. I just don’t like when it is cynically weaponized to attack candidates like Bernie who are working to make a change. It is very easy for it to be twisted into something that helps neoliberalism. But if you’re you’re speaking from a place of honestly and integrity im all for that
It wasn't the identity politics intellectuals that killed Bernie's campaigns, they don't have a constituency. It was the corporate democratic wing of the party that killed Bernie 's campaigns the fix was from the inside both times. They didn't want a radical left populist running for office representing their half of the unified " business party".
Fantastic to Halper for putting this together.
Anything that starts with identity ends in racism and hatred. Anything that starts with a common understanding of our humanity works miracles.
Norm is out of his depth. To dismiss intersectionality as a redundancy even as he says in the same breath that conceptualisations of class/identity struggles needed clarifying and building upon. That’s what a lot of scholarly work is- building upon previous works.
I’m sorry but he has a lot of hubris to try to sweep this conversation away instead of staying with the combahee river collective. Norman lacks the humility in this area to hold any real intellectual curiosity about the nuance within these movements.
It was always wrong, class is the correct way forward. There was never a black women getting murdered in Boston issue. Working people, black, male, white, female, and so on, were getting murdered. And most people were not- they were getting nickle and dimed.
Self interest is a powerful thing so those of us focused on class must allow ourselves and others to express themselves if they feel their identity is under threat and support them when we agree in hopes they will be there for the class struggle as well. Same when we reach out to people on the right. They may be animated by lots of stuff we don't agree with but we should support them on things we do agree with and hope they will be there more on class issues. These relationships between people and movements can probably alleviate some of our harshness in the process.
Absolutely not. Don't indulge these rich narcissists. Identity politics has destroyed the left and will continue to do so.
"If they feel their identity is under threat". Wtf does this even mean? Feelings aren't self-justifying. Your skin colour shouldn't be a part of your identity. And your sexuality shouldn't be a major part of your identity.
Excellent!
He says he's been corrected, but I don't see how. There has never been any conflict between class and identity politics. As Norman points out, the two were there together from the beginning. The problem comes when one ignores the other. Class analysis is problematic when it ignores identity oppression. And identity politics is problematic when it ignores class.
Perhaps the sense in which he's claiming to be corrected is insofar as he believed that the entire identity politics movement rejected class. Which Barbara Smith proves is not the case.
Norman is a national treasure
We need to preserve Norman's mind.
I love Norm. I truly do.
'Parenti was wrong' well, you're done.
Norm is right. Class first.
The "Left" is not monolithic. My first political actions were to organize Earth Day activities for the first Earth Day and Anti-Vietnam Protests. I am Japanese-America and often felt outside of racial politics even though I was always empathetic towards disadvantaged minority groups.. I grew up in Detroit.
I've always thought that the status of Indigenous peoples, and descendants of slave status, was more important than race. or color. Meeting people from Africa in college supported that.
I live in Minneapolis now and my Early Election work puts me in touch with the Somali community. They are impressively organized politically and like to vote at the Early Election Center where I work.
Look at Obama and Harris: Their Fathers we African, and Jamaican/Irish (whose ancestors owned slaves) of the Academic Class. As a Working Class college educated person I found that Harris ignored speaking to the Working Class. I would have liked to see Bernie Sanders at Harris's rallies.
Toward the end of MLK's life, he saw that class was more important than race. If you focused on the poor and working classes, you help both poor white and black people. Help the working class, and the descendants of Slaves and Native people. That is how you directly address the problem. MLK jr was killed after attending the Sanitation Strike in in Memphis.
Well stated
P. S. Dr. Finkelstein; oh how I wish you were a bit younger, because you embody the voice of my lifelong hero; Dr. Noam Chomsky.
You should check out Michael Parenti.
Norman got his ass straighten out, which is not a bad thing 💚.
No he didn't. None of them disputed that his critique of Kendi et al was sound. But apparently he's a bad boy for not including Smith in his book, even though she seems proud of her obscurity and is entirely ignored by the people NF did write about. Finkelstein's fawning at the end, simply because Smith didn't become a grifter herself, was entirely unwarranted. But it's the kind of bowing and scraping expected of white leftists any time a black person looks sideways at them.
It doesn't matter what was initially intended when identify politics is was being formed, it matters what it has become, and understanding that the results are inescapable, because identity is divisive by its own definition
While Norm's argument highlights the importance of class analysis, it's crucial to recognize that identity politics is equally significant. Identity politics addresses the unique experiences and systemic challenges faced by marginalized groups, which are often overlooked in class-only analyses. Ignoring identity politics serves the interests of the white capitalist patriarchy by maintaining existing power structures and diverting attention from the intersectional nature of oppression. By focusing solely on class, we risk perpetuating the very inequalities we aim to dismantle. Both identity and class analyses are essential for a comprehensive understanding of systemic issues and for fostering true equity and justice. Also Kendi's Stamped From the Beginning provides a powerful analysis of the history of racist ideas used to justify racial oppression. Yes, the book doesn't critique capitalism, but it's racial analysis is powerfully important. And the book is well written. Frankly I don't care what Norm thinks about identity politics. His views on the subject are not insightful to me.
What's the difference between identity politics and grappling honestly with history?
Identity politics is the opposite of that
Class number one with identity politics being part of the struggle not the other way around
The video title seems a little uhhhhh...inaccurate.
Finkelstein brings historical context to clarify today's often confused thought.
Finkelstein as always- calling a spade a spade, never shying from hitting the nail in its head.
Norman ate them for lunch.
Please look up Derrick Jensen March 2018 Eugene public library
I'm an older white male and work for a private nonprofit social services provider. And the political harassment I've experienced there far exceeds anything I experienced in my previous career of 23 years. many of these young people think they are entitled to hold racist and bigoted attitudes while falsely accusing others of the same. I've been harassed for my politics which I have not shared with anyone. interestingly I'm far to the left of my accusers and tormentors.
Last week one of the new female employees was loudly carrying on about a particular employer that Hires Way Too Many toxic males this is completely against our guidelines and our values yet these people feel entitled to speak this way in front of everybody else it's really really profoundly stupid