I Can Explain... Those Romance Books...
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- Опубликовано: 21 сен 2024
- There's more going on than meets the eye. Romance novels play a major role in the publishing industry, but what about... these books? What's going on there? Why is it happening? I'm taking a general overview on this sub-genre of romance. Let's take a look.
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Gotta give you props for enduring the cringe for us 🙃
Really enjoyed your analysis, made me realize some things about myself.
Nice general overview. Like you said, fantasy is escapism and shouldn't be confused with what people believe or want IRL. It is like the vigilante, we can like and can cheer for it in a movie, but IRL someone trying to act like Batman or the Equalizer is unacceptable.
People tend to forget that there is a difference between 'mainstream' and 'niche' genres and that the sudden rise in a sub-genres popularity doesn't always mean it is surpassing or even coming close to doing the same business or having the same impact as the 'mainstream,' but that is typical and 'boring.' But niches are niche for a reason, and when some of these ideas bleed into popular 'mainstream' properties cause they are trendy or the writes likes them and they are surprised when their typical 'mainstream' audience rejects them and/or is puzzled/disgusted by them, this is why!
This was an interesting video to float across my recommendations. :D Still, it's a topic I've debated with others before and I am baffled and intrigued by the whole romance genre. For context, I wrote a fantasy book that someone told me was "romantasy" and I had never heard that term so I started researching it. The way I see it, both men and women are seeking a fantasy, it just manifests in a different way for each. I thought that was obvious, but I've had people try to argue with me, saying that women are seeking intellectual stimulation through romance, not fap material. Really? Most romance books that have been recommended to me over the years (or the unintentionally hilarious Harlequin books on my grandma's shelves when I was a kid) have sex scenes, sometimes mild, sometimes explicit. I don't understand why women feel the need to deflect about what is essentially NOT REAL. It's escapist. Even a romance novel set in the modern world with realistic humans are total fiction, in that nothing is the way things are in romance books. The billionaire is not going to notice you because you dropped a bunch of papers when he was walking by or back-talked him unlike everyone else in his life, but why not enjoy a book in which this unlikely scenario happens? At least men are open and honest about drooling over impossibly large boobs because BOOBS. I just wish they would keep it to themselves, the way I keep my fantasy/escapist romance interests to myself. I will say that, in my view, monster stuff is an allegory for relationships with the "other" which is somewhat replacing sexual fascination with aliens that was more popular in the 60s-80s. As long as the monster is human-coded mentally (can think for themselves, has agency, respects the thoughts and agency of the female protagonist), I don't have any problem with whatever the freak is. It's when the sexual interest is basically a beast with no mind that I get grossed out, and there is that element out there. No thanks. Also, sorry for the novel, but thank you for your careful thoughts on this. Subbed!
Agreed. There is a definite line between animal and monster, and for sure the exotic "other" may be at play. That or the heimlich/unheimlich of Freudian psychoanalysis (literature version) or the Jungian archetype of Beauty and the Beast. Either way, women just need to embrace it and clarify this so guys don't get ideas. I agree with you as well that people also need to, more or less, keep things to themselves or to interested parties. We should never have to feel defensive about our fantasies. :P
@@chiekokurokumo indeed!
I don't think Asmon's point was about those books specifically only, or female oriented romance media in general even. The point is the double standard of how women/society view men's hobbies and their expectations of them in general, vs. women's.
The reality is that both men and women are immature roughly equally as a population, and even when matured can enjoy immature hobbies. This isn't strange, bad or surprising, or at least it shouldn't be. But the problem is that men's immaturity in society is condemned beyond a reasonable level, while women get to both demand men to "grow up" (which rarely means for men to mature as individuals, but rather for them to become more subservient to the immature demands of women), while women get a free pass on their immaturity. Oftentimes its even worse - female immaturity is held up as their best standard to aim for. So men constantly get sh@t on, while women act just as bad while getting away scot-free if not outright encouraged. That's the issue Asmon is pointing out.
Regardless of nicheness, there is a reason this shelf (and many like it) exist is many bookstores, while a mirrored shelf for men with lets say Gor books and similar never happens, and the reaction if it did would be vastly different.
Agreed. I too touched on the double standard in my video. The double standard in regards to rhetoric is real, and as I pointed out, it is unhealthy. It leads to guys being unfairly judged. I also pointed out that women need to understand that a man enjoying fantasy needn't mean that they hold those expectations IRL. This whole "fantasy leaks into IRL" is so damaging. If I had any pushback for Asmon it's the statement about being perverted, which is true on one level, as I said, but how this is experienced is not quite the same, a clarification that some might find interesting. :) Asmon was giving a off-hand statement that I wished to add more nuance to.
As for female immaturity and free passes... In highly conservative circles (let's say very conservative Christian circles with which I am familiar), there is more conversation about "male struggles with p#rn" than about female-focused content (like romance books). The reason is that male interaction with sexual content leads to physical interactions or has more "raunch", whereas there isn't a one-to-one correlation for women. The Christian romance genre (yes, it's a burgeoning genre) has become synonymous with clean romance (zero sex on the pages and no infidelity or extramarital sex), so for women, they can access their fantasy without breaking religious mores. I think this has seeped into the greater North American mindset that female fantasy isn't immoral, where male's interaction with fantasy intrinsically does. Which is bullocks. Female fantasy can be just as damage. Just more insidious. :)
@@chiekokurokumo I think he's not wrong about the perverted comment, its just that what it means to be "perverted" is a bit more nuanced than just what your fetishes are (most common definition). In reality everyone is a degenerate to one extent or another, because society as a whole can't operate if it starts openly condoning a lot of sexual behavior so it tends to set relatively stricter lines about such behaviour, while individuals can't live their private lives without going a bit over these safe lines society has to delineate to have normal fulfilling lives. So everyone is a degenerate by society's objective standard in one way or another. The difference between a pervert/degenerate and a person who is not is really only whether they keep it private. And again I think this is a major part of the problem. Women's perverseness with the example of these kinds of books is accepted in society, they can have a whole shelf with a spotlight on in in a book store openly and this should just be regarded as business as usual, but a male equivalent is forbidden to exist or even acknowledged. Women's degeneracy is accepted and even encouraged (dressing extremely sexually provocatively and going to clubs and getting in all kinds of sexual situations) and the response is "go girl", but a guy saying he wants to have sex with beautiful women and tries to go for it is a disgusting misogynist (let's say pick up artists, I don't know if these are even around anymore). While men aren't even allowed to indulge in escapism about this, whether with fiction or porn. If you like harem anime for example you are considered the absolute worst kind of societal loser. But somehow the hoe that gets drunk/drugged out of her mind every weekend and gets into gangbangs is living life to the max and a role mode for other young women... Women are allowed to be degenerates/perverts in public, while men stating their most basic, natural, harmless and benign desires is a big problem.
As for your second point regarding conservatives/religious circles - can't comment on that. I'm an East Yuropoor, here we don't have an equivalent to your conservatives/right wing/religious fundamentalists. The commies completely wiped out any semblance of ideas similar to those at least in my country (I think we are 40% atheist or something atm), maybe one of the very very few good things they did. To me North American Christians seems like cartoon characters from a bad book, it's difficult to even grasp people so dumb exist.
@@chiekokurokumo I think he's not wrong about the perverted comment, its just that what it means to be "perverted" is a bit more nuanced than just what your fetishes are (most common definition). In reality everyone is a degenerate to one extent or another, because society as a whole can't operate if it starts openly condoning a lot of sexual behavior so historically it tends to delineate relatively stricter lines about such behaviour, while individuals can't live their private lives without going a bit over these safe lines to have normal fulfilling lives. So everyone is a degenerate by society's objective standard in one way or another. The difference between a pervert/degenerate and a person who is not is really only whether they keep it private. And again I think this is a major part of the problem. Women's perverseness with the example of these kinds of books is accepted in society, they can have a whole shelf with a spotlight on in in a book store openly and this should just be regarded as business as usual, but a male equivalent is forbidden to exist or even acknowledged. Women's degeneracy is accepted and even encouraged (dressing extremely provocatively and going to clubs and getting in all kinds of sexual situations) and the response is "go girl", but a guy saying he wants to have sex with beautiful women and tries to go for it is a heartless monster (let's say pick up artists, I don't know if these are even around anymore). While men aren't even allowed to indulge in escapism about this, whether with fiction or porn. If you like eroge for example you are considered the absolute worst kind of societal loser. But somehow the hoe that gets drunk/dru-gged out of her mind every weekend and gets into g@ngb@ngs is living life to the max and a role mode for other young women... Women are allowed to be degenerates/perverts in public, while men stating their most basic, natural, harmless and benign desires is a big problem.
As for your second point regarding conservatives/religious circles - can't comment on that. I'm an East Yuropoor, here we don't have an equivalent to your conservatives/right wing/religious fundamentalists. The commies completely wiped out any semblance of ideas similar to those, at least in my country (I think we are 40% atheist or something atm), maybe one of the very very few good things they did. To me North American Christians seems like cartoon characters from a bad book, it's difficult to even grasp people so dumb exist.
@@chiekokurokumo I think he's not wrong about the perverted comment, its just that what it means to be "perverted" is a bit more nuanced than just what your fetishes are (most common definition). In reality everyone is a degenerate to one extent or another, because society as a whole can't operate if it starts openly condoning a lot of sexual behavior so historically it tends to delineate relatively stricter lines about such behaviour, while individuals can't live their private lives without going a bit over these safe lines to have normal fulfilling lives. So everyone is a degenerate by society's objective standard in one way or another. The difference between a pervert/degenerate and a person who is not is really only whether they keep it private. And again I think this is a major part of the problem. Women's perverseness with the example of these kinds of books is accepted in society, they can have a whole shelf with a spotlight on in in a book store openly and this should just be regarded as business as usual, but a male equivalent is forbidden to exist or even acknowledged. Women's degeneracy is accepted and even encouraged (dressing extremely provocatively and going to clubs and getting in all kinds of sexual situations) and the response is "go girl", but a guy saying he wants to have sex with beautiful women and tries to go for it is a heartless monster (let's say pick up artists, I don't know if these are even around anymore). While men aren't even allowed to indulge in escapism about this, whether with fiction or porn. If you like eroge for example you are considered the absolute worst kind of societal loser. But somehow the hoe that gets drunk/dru gged out of her mind every weekend and gets into g@ng b@ngs is living life to the max and a role mode for other young women... Women are allowed to be degenerates/perverts in public, while men stating their most basic, natural, harmless and benign desires is a big problem.
As for your second point regarding conservatives/religious circles - can't comment on that. I'm an East Yuropoor, here we don't have an equivalent to your conservatives/right wing/religious fundamentalists. The commies completely wiped out any semblance of ideas similar to those, at least in my country (I think we are 40% atheist or something atm), maybe one of the very very few good things they did. To me North American Christians seems like cartoon characters from a bad book, it's difficult to even grasp people so dumb exist.
@@chiekokurokumo I think he's not wrong about the perverted comment, its just that what it means to be "perverted" is a bit more nuanced than just what your fetishes are (most common definition). In reality everyone is a degenerate to one extent or another, because society as a whole can't operate if it starts openly condoning a lot of sexual behavior so historically it tends to delineate relatively stricter lines about such behaviour, while individuals can't live their private lives without going a bit over these safe lines to have normal fulfilling lives. So everyone is a degenerate by society's objective standard in one way or another. The difference between a pervert/degenerate and a person who is not is really only whether they keep it private. And again I think this is a major part of the problem. Women's perverseness with the example of these kinds of books is accepted in society, they can have a whole shelf with a spotlight on in in a book store openly and this should just be regarded as business as usual, but a male equivalent is forbidden to exist or even acknowledged. Women's degeneracy is accepted and even encouraged (dressing extremely provocatively and going to clubs and getting in all kinds of sexual situations) and the response is "go girl", but a guy saying he wants to have sex with beautiful women and tries to go for it is a heartless monster (let's say pick up artists, I don't know if these are even around anymore). While men aren't even allowed to indulge in escapism about this, whether with fiction or porn. If you like eroge for example you are considered the absolute worst kind of societal loser. But somehow the hoe that gets drunk/drugg3d out of her mind every weekend and gets into g@ng b@ngs is living life to the max and a role mode for other young women... Women are allowed to be degenerates/perverts in public, while men stating their most basic, natural, harmless and benign desires is a big problem.
As for your second point regarding conservatives/religious circles - can't comment on that. I'm an East Yuropoor, here we don't have an equivalent to your conservatives/right wing/religious fundamentalists. The commies completely wiped out any semblance of ideas similar to those, at least in my country (I think we are 40% atheist or something atm), maybe one of the very very few good things they did. To me North American Christians seems like cartoon characters from a bad book, it's difficult to even grasp people so dumb exist.
Could you do a more in-depth anysis of LitRPGs, please?
Personally, I despise this subgenre, but it gained a lot of popularity, wich means it does at least something right. Might be worth dissectig.
I can give it a shot! I'll see if I can try to find a free one on Kindle Unlimited.
This was pretty informative for me as a man. It's true that guys are way way more visually stimulated when it comes to this material. I think it's also why pinups are popular with them. I'm a professional artist. I've made some myself. Every artist has. Funny thing is, even female straight artists like drawing pretty women. Now if i were to try and draw a scene to appeal to women, i might still end up having visual centric biases as opposed to insinuating desire as much. I can craft things to do it halfway and appeal to more people, but it may not be as emotionally or psychologically oriented as I'd like to think.
This was pretty informative. I found it kinda upsetting and odd when some women kink shamed men for their visual bias. Wondered why they'd care. As far as I know, most men don't really find women's erotica or romance lame or that weird (since they're pretty open about what they like, never bothering to hide it ever). I'd like to add that Asmongold is a bit more conservative or pedestrian from what i can tell. That's not normal necessarily. Most men don't care. They'd be happy for women having something they like. In fact, if it's well written( I don't mean super explicit and granular. Yes, men like that because it's practically visual at that point. I mean well written period), they'd like to read some too. They can find another perspective attractive as well. It's not as much of a stretch tbh.
The people who shame men for their interests tend to be from certain ideological circles who have a bad habit of blaming men for stuff. These same people have other axes to grind about "body or fat shaming" and so on and so forth. It's all very ridiculous. No one should be shaming anyone.
What kind of art do you do?
@@chiekokurokumo I make game concept art and 3D production art. I've taken to illustrating rap album covers more recently. I'm passionate about illustration. I've worked on titles like Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth, Starfield, etc.
I also like writing on occasion. Please post your work or writing links on the channel. I think people would be interested.
@@pronoydutta614 Wow! That is amazing! I am aiming to launch a few pseudonyms, and when I do, I'll definitely share! I've recently been trying to extricate myself from ghostwriting... (very hard to do with some clients), but I can't wait to share my writing. If you are free, come by on Sunday because we'll probably be talking about writing, reading, and/or gaming on the stream. :) What stuff do you write? I've written everything from nonfiction to fiction... but I'm always curious about what other people get up to.
@@chiekokurokumo I've written some goofy reviews on the Toho Godzilla series, a rant about biscuits, horror stories , etc..
Not professionally. For fun. I am working on my own idea for a comic though. So I use my character design and some writing skills to create the setting.
Sure! I'll check out the Sunday event! Sounds good. I think being a professional writer is tough. With art, you get some leeway when you don't always need to concentrate all the time.
I was shamed for wanting more vanilla/feminine romance options in RPGs like BG3, where the only two conventionally attractive options for a straight male protagonist are a genocidal drow dominatrix and a snarky, edgy Shar worshipper. While women can choose from a hot vampire, hot wizard, hot muscle-bound druid/bear and a hot devil man.
I refuse to feel shame for wanting something wholesome and straightforward in my romance if peope who want all kinds of weird or kinky shit can publicly display their desires.
Let them have their kinks as long as they don't hurt anyone, but let me and peope like me have theirs.
It's a shame that not all interests get respect these days, but that perhaps is a whole other topic, more related to certain ideologies gaining the upperhand in creative circles. :)
They're also making most characters bisexual now which kind of takes me out as far as characterization goes but I know that's more for dev expedience than a hard creative decision.
@@RED_Theory038 yes, it breaks immersion. I wish they would not do that.
Asmongold was good for something?
Was an interesting journey. Thanks for your insights and intellect.
I agree that men and women are different. Still, I think we all can agree on what is perverse and depraved.
The writing of the text you showed us is pretty cringe. I felt my face turning inward as if eating a lemon.
Then again, I do feel better about my own writing skills.
@@TheNigel01 Haha. There you go! Well, remember, that in terms of it's target, this writing is spot on. It's intended to be consumed easily, and the audience is aiming for psychological exploration not for worldbuilding necessarily. And since it's often written from a modern woman's perspective, the narrative voice is often chirpy. :P
breaking news: men and women are different
hopefully you make enough money to afford a better mic