I’ve drilled balls for 15 years and have never seen pin to PAP distances described as a bell curve. Nor have I seen the liner line for pin to VAL described like that either. Nice work!
Just the best explanation of these numbers that I have seen, bowling sensei! Honestly, Mikey, I don't think even Darren could have provided a more erudite and cogent description of these obfuscative numbers. I truly appreciate your effort, and your ability.
Thank you, Darren. I appreciate you explaining this process in a way my customers can understand. The use of VLS, 2LS and Dual Angle systems really are invaluable for shaping shots and better utilizing modern bowling balls. You have a great way of connecting with enthusiasts through your videos. Keep on keepin’ on.
Thank you D.Tang very much for sharing and demonstrating the entire process of drawing lines. After watching this video several times, I learned how to draw lines by myself. This helps me a ton !
Thanks Darren this actually helped me alot. With using dual angle layout too. Understanding pin distance and what happens when with the core using you roller helped visualize it
Storm’s videos on the Pin Buffer Layout system are nice and include some demonstration rolls. Your explanation was even more valuable because of the whiteboard and foam roller. Thanks. Here’s my question tied specifically to a tournament I just bowled right next to you: at Morongo, you bowled great. I spent the middle games chasing a shape I didn’t have in my bag. Strong balls looked great in game one, but by early in game two it was too lazy down lane and 2-pin combos were everywhere. I needed something “cleaner through the front” so that it would hook off the spot. However, the cleaner balls I had wouldn’t read in the midlane. Without going through every ball I brought, if I had a stronger ball but longer Pin buffer and longer pin-to-pap, would it read later and still have the same overall strength because of the core and cover? I’m not sure I’m asking this well. Thanks in advance!
Darren, that Hanzi that shows up around 1:12 in your video inside the bowling ball. What does that character mean? I have never seen it before and can't find it in any Chinese or Japanese dictionary. Thanks.
Awesome explanation, Darren. I appreciate you doing that, but I guess I'm not catching the whole system right. I guess I'll have to be at the mercy of my local pro shop on layouts. Sure wish I could figure it out, though.
This is purely informational for those that want to know. It’s definitely not something required to be a great bowler. Visit us on twitch if you have more questions!
Darren, I loved this video. I just got back into bowling after being out for six years. When I stopped bowling at 18 I averaged 195-205 in the few leagues I was in. Needles to say I’m not there anymore lol I’m starting to get new equipment and get my physical game back where it needs to be. Now I’m wanting to learn the spec/drilling side of bowling balls so I can lay them out myself and know what’s best for me. My question is are you going to do more videos of this sort or know of a link to good videos to help better my knowledge? Thanks for your time. Btw I’m a huge fan of you your brother and THE HOUSE! #leftsiderules
Darren, thank you for the video. I'm hoping you can clarify something for me as a relatively new bowler. I have been watching several videos on laying out a bowling ball. And without fail, they all seem to just breeze through the vertical and horizontal components of the bowler's axis coordinates. They all say some variation of, I know X amount down and X amount over, and proceed to finish laying out the ball. But I have yet to find one person who explains how you are supposed to find or measure these numbers if you don't already know. Any references you can show would be greatly appreciated.
I’m assuming you’re talking about the PAP (positive axis point). Easiest way to find those numbers is by going to your local pro shop and have them measure it. This is probably the main reason people don’t explain how to find it.
It absolutely does matter, it's just going to be different depending on your personal PAP and the particular layout you want. That's the purpose of all this, to get the ball right for YOU.
Your PAP can and will vary by hand position and also naturally over time. It’s best to have it measured annually to make sure it still is accurate for how you throw the ball
I have a question... Just watched the video tour of the Storm factory and noticed balls of the very same model get produced with different pin lengths. Is this done intentionally or is it variance in production? What is the difference in pin length? Do you get to choose when you purchase a ball or is it luck of the draw? I just ordered a couple more Storm family balls (Rotogrip Rubicon original and UC3) and I have no idea what I'll receive or what difference it makes.
One thing is missing. Where will you drill the holes? 😮 The Pin to PAP distance is a measurement that is a number “taken off the bowler’s hand.” You used your personal centerline distance as an example. That is another measurement “taken off the bowler’s hand.” That number is transferred to the ball onto a line at 90 degrees from the ball’s centerline drawn from Pin to CG ( or PSA). The combination of the ball’s centerline crossed with the bowler’s hand center makes an X or cross together with the PAP location gives a general orientation model of the bowler’s hand laid out onto the surface of the ball. The rest of the layout lines and angles are options or choices that orient the characteristics of the ball around the bowler’s hand. Finish that tailoring part of the sizing and you are almost done. Now where exactly do you drill the holes? I suppose the ball driller places the ball on the drilling machine by orienting two or more of the layout line intersections, and the machine by design locates the point of the drill. Or?
I do have a question though for you Darren...do you ever feel the need, depending on what pattern you are bowling on, to layout a urethane with a long pin buffer or short pin buffer? Im very curious about that because I used to throw urethane but with these different layouts in todays game, I want to know because you love throwing urethane, and I want to get another one. Its been a while since I rolled one and I would like some feedback before i go crazy on layouts LOL
Awesome question! To be completely honest, messing around with layouts depends on what we see week to week on tour. In my opinion, it’s best to stick with layouts that work for you. If they don’t work, ask your pro shop operator for something different!
@@DarrenTang I am my own PSO but I have not thrown urethane in a very long time. Ive laid out others urethanes based on what layouts they like in other balls. Really the question I shouldve asked you is if you see a much of a difference in a very long pin to PAP urethane vs a very short pin to PAP and if you have used either on urethane in certain situations. Unfortunately I dont get to venture to many tournaments LOL. Thanks again for your response, and keep doing great things out there bro!
For clarification the smaller the pin buffer number the more the ball will want to stand up and backend, however I don't recommend going below 1" or you may have flare issues and tracking over the thumb.
PAP is measured from the center of grip. For most bowlers that use their thumb, it’s generally measured from the mid span. For two handers, it’s usually measured from the center of their bridge.
@@DarrenTang Ahhh, and so the center of the grip is measured/determined from the PAP which was determined initially as the intersection point of two lines at the desired pin-to-PAP distance? Thanks!
Get one of those Storm plastic flexi compass like things. I forget what they call it but it works great, super simple. And it's cheap and works better and easier than the aluminum arc compass things that are out there.
The pin buffer just changes where the holes are drilled into the core. A shorter pin buffer moves the pin higher so the holes that are drilled take more mass out of the side of the core and create more asymmetry in the core, and therefore make the ball want to transition quicker, and therefore have a more angular shape. A longer pin buffer moves the pin lower so that the holes will take mass more out of the top of the core and create less asymmetry and result in a slower transition and a less angular / smoother reaction. Let me know if you would like to discuss.
you should consider showing the storm 2 LS with Jessie’s balls so us two handers can actually understand it just an idea awesome video though as always
Pin closer to the VAL.....holes take weight/mass out of the side of the core, creates more asymmetry, and the ball transitions faster and reacts quicker to friction, ie.... sharper breakpoint. Pin farther from VAL.... . holes take more weight / mass from the top of the core, reducing asymmetry, thus the ball reacts slower to friction, creating a more gradual and smoother shape... It is the holes removing the weight / mass from the core that creates the different reaction, not necessarily the pin being close or far from the VAL... The distance from the VAL is just a way to describe and quantify the layout spec.
Dual angle and VLS are functionally the same. Drilling angle determines mass bias location ala the 2nd number in VLS. Pin to Pap is the same in both systems and the pin buffer is the equivalent of the Val angle in dual angle. Use whichever one you can understand
@@remoevans2233 For you perhaps. I'm a Mo disciple (worked with him at AMF and learned everything I know about balls from him) yet I prefer pin buffer. It's doing the exact same thing, just a different way of getting there.
Ok, as i understand it, pin up makes the ball go longer, and pin down makes a ball go early... My Hustle Inc (one of my main balls) has the pin right next to my ring finger on the lay out. What is this called and what is it supposed to do to the ball?
I know this is an old post but just in case you're still wondering, pin up vs down is just a shorthand way of describing a layout. Where the pin is in relation to your fingers actually doesn't matter at all. Where it is in relation to your PAP and the mass bias is what matters. It just happens that for bowlers in the average PAP range, short pins will be below the fingers and long pins will be above but if you have a more extreme outlier of a PAP location, you could find the pin in a totally different place in respect to your fingers.
Most of us PSO’s not affiliated with Storm use the Dual Angle system. It’s a more accurate method IMO and easier to explain/understand for those that want to know.
There was an old commercial with Sinbad and he was drilling a bowling ball and he said “no math here”. He needs to watch this video. There’s too much math here.
What math? There is no math in doing layouts. There was an absolute ton of math involved in coming up with these systems but none in actually using them
It's hard to follow along and watch how you're moving the ball, because the camera is moving around so much. Great info though. Maybe next time, a video showing the VLS, with a stationary camera focused on the ball.
A core is not symmetrical or asymmetrical because "it has a z axis". If you're going to make a video for such things you should write down the key parts that you're going to say and make sure they are correct or are expressed in a meaningful manner. Good explanation in the end about the pin to pap distances though, with the cylinder. ;) Also the editing and the description of the VLS , basically explained nothing. Many people have tried to explain that method (even Storm) and they didn't manage to explain it adequately. Dual angles sounds way easier to communicate.
I’ve drilled balls for 15 years and have never seen pin to PAP distances described as a bell curve. Nor have I seen the liner line for pin to VAL described like that either. Nice work!
When people say when will you ever use algebra, calculus, trigonometry, etc outside of school I will point them to this video
The only time you’ll ever use any of those
@@OceanicMaestroOf course, other than all the applicable uses
@@ExoticDva no
Just the best explanation of these numbers that I have seen, bowling sensei! Honestly, Mikey, I don't think even Darren could have provided a more erudite and cogent description of these obfuscative numbers. I truly appreciate your effort, and your ability.
Thank you, Darren. I appreciate you explaining this process in a way my customers can understand. The use of VLS, 2LS and Dual Angle systems really are invaluable for shaping shots and better utilizing modern bowling balls. You have a great way of connecting with enthusiasts through your videos. Keep on keepin’ on.
I see that mid roll on the scrubber... the RUclips growing!!! Excellent educational info and keep on the grind my guy!
Thank you D.Tang very much for sharing and demonstrating the entire process of drawing lines.
After watching this video several times, I learned how to draw lines by myself.
This helps me a ton !
Daren, I love how high quality your videos are becoming! Keep up the grind brother!
Thanks Darren this actually helped me alot. With using dual angle layout too. Understanding pin distance and what happens when with the core using you roller helped visualize it
Please continue making these videos. They are well done and informative.
You, sir, deserve a medal. Great explanation. 👊
This video is very helpful. I really want to learn how to layout and drill a bowling ball. The science in all of this really intrigues me.
i bowled like crap today so i bought a idol synergy to make me feel better
I've been studying this and the way you described it with the graphs really helped as well. Nice job!!
Don’t lie, Darren. You just wanted to flex that Alpha! 👀
Storm’s videos on the Pin Buffer Layout system are nice and include some demonstration rolls. Your explanation was even more valuable because of the whiteboard and foam roller. Thanks.
Here’s my question tied specifically to a tournament I just bowled right next to you: at Morongo, you bowled great. I spent the middle games chasing a shape I didn’t have in my bag. Strong balls looked great in game one, but by early in game two it was too lazy down lane and 2-pin combos were everywhere. I needed something “cleaner through the front” so that it would hook off the spot. However, the cleaner balls I had wouldn’t read in the midlane. Without going through every ball I brought, if I had a stronger ball but longer Pin buffer and longer pin-to-pap, would it read later and still have the same overall strength because of the core and cover?
I’m not sure I’m asking this well. Thanks in advance!
Dude, thank you so much 🙏🏽 Super helpful. I’m drilling my ball soon and now I could ask the driller for a personal set up
That was great. This helped me understand layouts a lot more.
Very well done, good job!
Darren, that Hanzi that shows up around 1:12 in your video inside the bowling ball. What does that character mean? I have never seen it before and can't find it in any Chinese or Japanese dictionary. Thanks.
Nevermind, I found it. Is that your name in chinese?
Hey bro what a good layout that you think good for one hand no thumb bowling?
This helped me understand pin to PAP. I think the graph helped the most, lol
Awesome explanation, Darren. I appreciate you doing that, but I guess I'm not catching the whole system right. I guess I'll have to be at the mercy of my local pro shop on layouts. Sure wish I could figure it out, though.
This is purely informational for those that want to know. It’s definitely not something required to be a great bowler. Visit us on twitch if you have more questions!
Great tutorial. Keep it up Dtang.
Man reminds me why I HATE math class but superb explanation. Love the vids!
Thanks Darren I have a NIB Alpha Crux and a NIB Second Dimension would love to put some layouts to benefit from this system.
Darren, I loved this video. I just got back into bowling after being out for six years. When I stopped bowling at 18 I averaged 195-205 in the few leagues I was in. Needles to say I’m not there anymore lol I’m starting to get new equipment and get my physical game back where it needs to be. Now I’m wanting to learn the spec/drilling side of bowling balls so I can lay them out myself and know what’s best for me. My question is are you going to do more videos of this sort or know of a link to good videos to help better my knowledge? Thanks for your time. Btw I’m a huge fan of you your brother and THE HOUSE! #leftsiderules
How does Lance layout his and what does he throw? I throw like him and don't think standard layout and balls work. I get too much skid
Great video! I learned something. Thanks.
Darren, thank you for the video. I'm hoping you can clarify something for me as a relatively new bowler. I have been watching several videos on laying out a bowling ball. And without fail, they all seem to just breeze through the vertical and horizontal components of the bowler's axis coordinates. They all say some variation of, I know X amount down and X amount over, and proceed to finish laying out the ball. But I have yet to find one person who explains how you are supposed to find or measure these numbers if you don't already know. Any references you can show would be greatly appreciated.
I’m assuming you’re talking about the PAP (positive axis point). Easiest way to find those numbers is by going to your local pro shop and have them measure it. This is probably the main reason people don’t explain how to find it.
My brother does all my layouts and tried to explain it you made it a little easier
Does the layout matter for those non pro bowler who cant release consistent?
So does it not matter where the finger holes go? Is it just a general area
It absolutely does matter, it's just going to be different depending on your personal PAP and the particular layout you want. That's the purpose of all this, to get the ball right for YOU.
Will my pap change as my game changes or is it pretty much always the same?
Your PAP can and will vary by hand position and also naturally over time. It’s best to have it measured annually to make sure it still is accurate for how you throw the ball
I have a question... Just watched the video tour of the Storm factory and noticed balls of the very same model get produced with different pin lengths. Is this done intentionally or is it variance in production? What is the difference in pin length? Do you get to choose when you purchase a ball or is it luck of the draw? I just ordered a couple more Storm family balls (Rotogrip Rubicon original and UC3) and I have no idea what I'll receive or what difference it makes.
One thing is missing. Where will you drill the holes? 😮
The Pin to PAP distance is a measurement that is a number “taken off the bowler’s hand.”
You used your personal centerline distance as an example. That is another measurement “taken off the bowler’s hand.” That number is transferred to the ball onto a line at 90 degrees from the ball’s centerline drawn from Pin to CG ( or PSA).
The combination of the ball’s centerline crossed with the bowler’s hand center makes an X or cross together with the PAP location gives a general orientation model of the bowler’s hand laid out onto the surface of the ball. The rest of the layout lines and angles are options or choices that orient the characteristics of the ball around the bowler’s hand.
Finish that tailoring part of the sizing and you are almost done. Now where exactly do you drill the holes?
I suppose the ball driller places the ball on the drilling machine by orienting two or more of the layout line intersections, and the machine by design locates the point of the drill. Or?
Thank Darren!
Did you make a drilling video? I can’t find it
Excellent!
I do have a question though for you Darren...do you ever feel the need, depending on what pattern you are bowling on, to layout a urethane with a long pin buffer or short pin buffer? Im very curious about that because I used to throw urethane but with these different layouts in todays game, I want to know because you love throwing urethane, and I want to get another one. Its been a while since I rolled one and I would like some feedback before i go crazy on layouts LOL
Awesome question! To be completely honest, messing around with layouts depends on what we see week to week on tour. In my opinion, it’s best to stick with layouts that work for you. If they don’t work, ask your pro shop operator for something different!
@@DarrenTang I am my own PSO but I have not thrown urethane in a very long time. Ive laid out others urethanes based on what layouts they like in other balls. Really the question I shouldve asked you is if you see a much of a difference in a very long pin to PAP urethane vs a very short pin to PAP and if you have used either on urethane in certain situations. Unfortunately I dont get to venture to many tournaments LOL. Thanks again for your response, and keep doing great things out there bro!
You did answer my question in general LOL
I like how that AlphaCrux was eye candy lol
For clarification the smaller the pin buffer number the more the ball will want to stand up and backend, however I don't recommend going below 1" or you may have flare issues and tracking over the thumb.
I'm a lot less confused. Glad I found this video.
What a coincidence. The Phase 2 is my top control ball in my one-handed bag, and the Alpha fills the same role in my two-handed bag.
So for a given bowler, is the PAP always the same distance from the center line?
PAP is measured from the center of grip. For most bowlers that use their thumb, it’s generally measured from the mid span. For two handers, it’s usually measured from the center of their bridge.
@@DarrenTang Ahhh, and so the center of the grip is measured/determined from the PAP which was determined initially as the intersection point of two lines at the desired pin-to-PAP distance? Thanks!
@@elbowloloco7499 exactly!
how does one use a pro sect to draw arcs? i can never do it smoothly
Get one of those Storm plastic flexi compass like things. I forget what they call it but it works great, super simple. And it's cheap and works better and easier than the aluminum arc compass things that are out there.
The pin buffer just changes where the holes are drilled into the core. A shorter pin buffer moves the pin higher so the holes that are drilled take more mass out of the side of the core and create more asymmetry in the core, and therefore make the ball want to transition quicker, and therefore have a more angular shape. A longer pin buffer moves the pin lower so that the holes will take mass more out of the top of the core and create less asymmetry and result in a slower transition and a less angular / smoother reaction. Let me know if you would like to discuss.
What is the second ball you are laying out? The asymm?
Alpha Crux
you should consider showing the storm 2 LS with Jessie’s balls so us two handers can actually understand it just an idea awesome video though as always
Thanks Darren
Pin closer to the VAL.....holes take weight/mass out of the side of the core, creates more asymmetry, and the ball transitions faster and reacts quicker to friction, ie.... sharper breakpoint. Pin farther from VAL.... . holes take more weight / mass from the top of the core, reducing asymmetry, thus the ball reacts slower to friction, creating a more gradual and smoother shape... It is the holes removing the weight / mass from the core that creates the different reaction, not necessarily the pin being close or far from the VAL... The distance from the VAL is just a way to describe and quantify the layout spec.
I am so confused LOL...I use the dual angle and it works good enough for me, BUT I can see where this will save time while laying out the ball
Dual angle and VLS are functionally the same. Drilling angle determines mass bias location ala the 2nd number in VLS. Pin to Pap is the same in both systems and the pin buffer is the equivalent of the Val angle in dual angle. Use whichever one you can understand
Dual angle is less confusing, especially when Mo Pinel was explaining the process. RIP
@@remoevans2233 For you perhaps. I'm a Mo disciple (worked with him at AMF and learned everything I know about balls from him) yet I prefer pin buffer. It's doing the exact same thing, just a different way of getting there.
Love the video have you ever heard of a pap thats 7 1/4 over 1 up?
I got a 3d printed pro-sect for a fraction of the price. Tested it against the real one and it is spot on.
Do you have to know this to be on tour?
Ok, as i understand it, pin up makes the ball go longer, and pin down makes a ball go early... My Hustle Inc (one of my main balls) has the pin right next to my ring finger on the lay out. What is this called and what is it supposed to do to the ball?
Pin up balls actually hook earlier. We usually use pin up balls when further left which makes them seem like they go longer
I know this is an old post but just in case you're still wondering, pin up vs down is just a shorthand way of describing a layout. Where the pin is in relation to your fingers actually doesn't matter at all. Where it is in relation to your PAP and the mass bias is what matters. It just happens that for bowlers in the average PAP range, short pins will be below the fingers and long pins will be above but if you have a more extreme outlier of a PAP location, you could find the pin in a totally different place in respect to your fingers.
Does my PAP changes with each different ball?
No. Unless you use different pitches with each different ball, then it may change a little
6:51 Darren encounters a windows error
Thank you sir😊
Great video man.
I'm in need of a 4th for a tournament this Saturday 1pm at Sam's town. You wanna join?
Thank you so much man 😁
This video was so relaxing and confusing. Ps I’m new to bowling.
Darren any new videos on ball layout
you should do a video of your arsenal and your top ten favorite balls
🤫
@@DarrenTang 🤐
What was the sym
Phaze II
Should make a video on pitches on different balls.
I’m betting only a small percentage of pro shop operators follow these very important steps.
Most of us PSO’s not affiliated with Storm use the Dual Angle system. It’s a more accurate method IMO and easier to explain/understand for those that want to know.
Thats going to take me a few tries
Flexing on us all with the NIB Alpha Crux...
Damn, all the sass lmao
There was an old commercial with Sinbad and he was drilling a bowling ball and he said “no math here”. He needs to watch this video. There’s too much math here.
What math? There is no math in doing layouts. There was an absolute ton of math involved in coming up with these systems but none in actually using them
So confusing but I am appreciative
It is confusing but I think I understand the concepts
It's hard to follow along and watch how you're moving the ball, because the camera is moving around so much. Great info though. Maybe next time, a video showing the VLS, with a stationary camera focused on the ball.
Darren, you should check out Mo’s videos if you are interested in going in depth during the off season.
My hand has a really cool personality 😎, shorts for proof.
If you would attend college and you would bowl in that said college would they teach you this
Depends on the college
I hope they do
God this looks harder then I imagine ngl
A core is not symmetrical or asymmetrical because "it has a z axis". If you're going to make a video for such things you should write down the key parts that you're going to say and make sure they are correct or are expressed in a meaningful manner. Good explanation in the end about the pin to pap distances though, with the cylinder. ;) Also the editing and the description of the VLS , basically explained nothing. Many people have tried to explain that method (even Storm) and they didn't manage to explain it adequately. Dual angles sounds way easier to communicate.
Sounds like you should make your own videos and do the explaining
@@Alldayertexas I say this because i have not yet fully understood vls from the existing videos, so i shouldn't try to explain it myself.
Since my PAP is 5” -> 1-1/2” ^….. guess I should pay a bit more attention to your ball motion with your layouts….
I have had pro shops tell me the PAP is not important
You're supposed to do that on your back! And not on Sunday while riding a horse.
Yup, still confused 🤪
lol complete nonsense
Alpha crux tho
Hi Darren
Wth!! I just want my hall to strike every time. Lol thanks for confusing me
Soooooo make ball go curvy or really currrrrvy.
this is a good vid but for new comers its like gibberish haha
Yes Darren complete your sentences... HAHA we can what???
How to make you feel better about your crappy bowling:
*watch the embarrassing moments for the pros*