This video has made me realize my biggest problem with Gloomhaven is I'm not playing it with Daniel. Incredibly detailed and thorough review. A masterpiece you might say.
Naw, I always just play with my pals atm, but I'd be interested later on! Right now I'm looking more into the possibility of streaming Gloomhaven digital -Daniel
I am here to say a few things: 1) I'm an Ashton fan, but I am really hoping that Daniel gets unleashed now that his two year project is over. 2) Recalibrating viewers to the idea that a 7 rating is good = brilliant and SO NECESSARY. The gig economy and associated apps have ruined the 1-5 or 1-10 scale. Thank you for addressing that critical element of all reviews. And 3) this is one of the best, most well thought out, written, and edited reviews I have ever watched (of any media). Your channel has quickly shot up my subs to my top three among boardgames channels. Well done and thank you!
Fantastic! I'll probably never play Gloomhaven, but now I feel like I understand it. Plus so many insights on game design. Thank you for putting the time and effort into making this!
I don’t really enjoy dungeon crawlers or co-ops, so I have close to no interest in Gloomhaven, but I’ll be god damned if I’m not going to watch this whole thing. You fellas are just…. Very fucking entertaining.
I just got home after a 5 hour drive from getting away for a long weekend. This video kept me entertained whilst unpacking, tidying and getting the clothes washed. Thank you. Now to play some gloomhaven. 👍👍👍
I agree with Ashton's review. I wanted to like it but I ended up hating it. Yet one of my favourite games is Mage Knight which shares some similarities. But unlike MK I quickly got burned out by GH, which is weird considering that MK is more complex
A friend and I finished the campaign (around 55-60 scenarios for us, most but not all unlocks) over about a year and a half playing one scenario every week or two. We only lost a couple of times total. We used the Gloomhaven Helper app to manage the encounters (I consider it essential) as I absolutely HATE the fiddliness required out of the box. I don't regret playing, but near the end I was entirely sick of the game and probably would have just quit except my friend was enjoying it more than me. We stopped going for unlocks and side quests near the end and just rushed the campaign story (or "story" is more appropriate as the narrative and writing are quite weak). After we finished, I packed everything up, including an unopened Forgotten Circles, and gave it all to my friend. A couple of years later and I still have zero interest in the system and will completely skip Jaws of the Lion and Frosthaven.
Yeah the repetitiveness is really big problem if you're trying to do a sizable amount of scenarios, the game would've definitely benefited from less scenarios but they were more individually unique. -Daniel
The opening had me absolutely stunned. Amazing piece of work! I found myself laughing upon recognizing Egoraptor's voice and Matt Lees from Shut Up & Sit Down. The special effects were very well done. Mad props. :D I've played Jaws of the Lion for 5 missions with my datefriend. I liked that pretty well, but Gloomhaven itself would be too huge for me (though minis always tempt me). Gloomhaven digital would be cool to try though. I figure I might have the same thing with Scythe digital in that Gloomhaven digital would cut down SO MUCH on the downtime. (Also a big reason why I like BoardGameArena.) Games on a physical tabletop in my house should have that in-person experience add on to the whole experience, not detract from it. Gloomhaven seems like it COULD hit just right... or completely fail at that.
The digital argument is ridiculous. Then I could make a case to give up board games altogether and only play video games because you can do more with them
Hi! From the future. Frosthaven does a lot of things right. And oooo I just unlocked Coral and now I understand why you’re so excited. I know that you get a great deal of Gloomhaven done through digital, does that mean you’ll ever get into Crimson Scales and Trail of Ashes? I really dig the dev-blogs about the character creation process for those.
I definitely want to play them, but no idea when I'll get around to them it's real busy behind the scenes here (Frosthaven review is in its final stages of editing after all these months lol) -Daniel
I have to say while I also like the Digital version of Gloomhaven with my friends we all agree that digital will never beat physical for us. Its just simply more fun for us personally to play with each other face to face and actually touch the components. But the one bad thing I will say is that the game absolutely benefits from an organizer as it makes the setup way faster and efficient. So if you are gonna get this already expensive game a organizer is highly recommended and it ads more to the overall price. Is it worth it still? In our humble opinion absolutely yes and me and my friends cannot wait for Frosthaven.
Very well thought out and comprehensive review- absolutely brilliant chaps I applaud you! Ps was gutted with Ashton’s score… and SO happy when I got Daniel’s LOL
i got 700+ hrs in this game with dozens of hours on almost all chars n having tried out all major builds on said chars and still, i couldnt help but watch this with a fat smile on my face. tyvm
Amusing story and impressive to have finished it. The conclusion is that it’s unbalanced midway on, you need digital solutions and therefore you might as well play other video games. I realized I’m done with analog fiddliness. I’d rather play board games optimized for something specific rather than a modular system like GH. But my biggest gripe with GH is that I dislike the art, the font. The lack of world lore. The lack of motivation for my heroes and the lack of npc interaction. If all that’s left is hex based combat, play Memoir or Hoplomachus Victorum. I hope the world building will be better in FH and that unlockables will have requirements. That event cards display what card they originated from. FH will likely be better but Isofarian will be delivered earlier so I’ll play that first.
Certainly with you on the fiddliness and theme/presentation of the game. I just can't get into it! Stil boggles my mind how Daniel is so into it. I also like neuroshima hex/monolith arena for my hex play, but I suppose that isn't a dungeon crawler ahaha. Here's to hoping what's next in FH -Ashton
Thanks for the amazing videos! I randomly recently played a Gloomhaven game where the owner just handed out 4 random tuckboxes and we opened up to scenario one and went at it. He only played once before and was never going to actually play as a proper campaign so it worked out rather well.
That's great to hear! People are always so intimidated by the prospect of starting a massive campaign with the massive box so it's cool seeing people just diving in without caring! -Daniel
What I find incredibly odd about this game is how it is treated as disposable. Imagine you buy monopoly and instead of the houses and hotels, it come with a permanent marker and when you purchase a house on Park Place, you just write 'House' in permanent marker on the board. It's ridiculous. Who spends 140$ on a game and then destroys that game as they play it? When you play digital, does the program delete itself as you play? I get that the Legacy aspect of the game makes re-playability poor, but that's up to me if I want to play again, or have 2 groups going at once. Writing on the actual scenario book? one time use stickers that ruin the board and cards for any future play? Who does that? It can only be logically explained as a marketing tool to sell more games. As a long time gamer (45 years plus) who generally plays more complicated games than this (Hex and counter war games, 300 page rule books, yes, I've even played about 60 turns of Campaign for North Africa) and this is the first time in my life I've seen a game designed to be destroyed as you play it. It's not ok. Yes, I ordered the replaceable sticker set. Yes, I will make copies of things to write on rather than the original. For 140$, it takes real balls and some questionable ethics (at best) to make a game that you destroy as you play, Legacy or not.
Have you tried Mage Knight? I got it when the pandemic first struck after researching best solo games. It is a fantastic game that I have played many times and would not ever play multiplayer. If you're looking for a dungeon crawler, asymmetry, and very relevant and well crafter character upgrades throughout a scenario, I would highly recommend.
played it once in high school with Daniel actually! Really enjoyed it, but yeah certainly wouldn't want to play multiplayer again. We'll have to give it a review one day since so many people bring it up :) -Ashton
I usually don’t watch 1hr plus review videos, but your charismas make it enjoyable. Keep up the good work. PS this is my 5th video watching (watched from beginning to end: Tainted Grail, Bloodrage, Ankh, Rising Sun and this one).
I have been on the fence about this game for a loooong time. I love the idea and I love the art and the idea of getting into something like it. For someone like me I love dice rolls for Combat and defense it’s just what I’m used to, cards just feels a lot less of an intensity. But I’ll probably still buy it so when I rewatch this for the 8th time I can all the more understand the pain of how huge the game is.
I know me too, clunking dice down, with the sound and the hand action, much more simulates doing a real attack! More so than flipping over a card or, as in some games, drawing a chit from a bag.
What a staggeringly incisive and comprehensive review. I can only begin to imagine the amount of work that went to it. As epic and monstrously detailed as the game itself. Oh, it was bloody funny, too. Incredible.
Great video! GH has never interested me personally. I do have JOTL in shrink, not in a hurry to play it though. Did get it for $30 seemed like a screaming deal. One day I'll play it and if I like it I'm sure I will be able to find original GH on Ebay on the cheap.
So thankful for Ashton’s score. I’ve been thinking I’ve been missing something after my few plays of this game, but I realized euro style gaming isn’t for me, especially in a dungeon crawl. Thanks for all your hard work! Love your long form videos.
awesome review...! ain't anyone in the comments going to point out and fuss that Dark Soul is called out while Bloodborne is shown?? reallyyyy? you guys are just pretending.
4/10 is accurate. Gloomhaven is overrated, broken and is really an Euro card game puzzle with a dungeon crawler theme pasted on. I love Descent, Imperial Assault, HeroQuest, Advanced HeroQuest, Cthulhu Death May Die, and Mansions of Madness.
imo the gameplay definitely still has the fundamental structure of a dungeon crawl so it's not just an aesthetic/theme, but after just coming from reviewing Scythe maybe my standards have shifted haha (that game is just fundamentally not a 4x in gameplay and way more of a euro resource management puzzle) -Daniel
It's funny to me watching this because... well... The comparison to Descent 2nd edition and liking it at the end. I actually vehemently hate playing Descent 2nd edition lol. It feels so mindless, so shallow, the fact that you're always just trying to complete an objective and ignoring monsters is a mechanic I just hate. It's occasional in Gloomhaven that you don't have to kill everything but I feel that's a good balance. I really like playing Gloomhaven by comparison. (My personal score was 8/10... I really don't like Forgotten Circles though)
I just wanted to stop after the intro and say... my first character was the cragheart, and i loved that someone else noticed his belt says Kyle. It's like the class was made for me!
I enjoy the game, but I didn't end up loving it like I thought I would. That probably comes down to hype and expectation rather than anything else, and it was honestly comforting to see Ashton's review, agreeing with everything and realizing that I am not the only person in the world that wasn't blown away by it, because it sure feels that way sometimes. I had to keep playing because I figured it must just click or get better or something, because that many people can't be wrong. I have had fun with it, so I would give it a 6 or 7 out of 10, and I am glad that other people really do love it, I just didn't feel the same love unfortunately.
(Cover your ears Ashton) Every so often i come back to watch this video just for the intro, and to hear someone talk about GH who appreciates it as much as i do. And Daniel is funny as hell.
I sold Gloomhaven recently after it sat on my shelf for more more than two years unplayed (Excepted for when I played half of the first scenario). The game seemed okay...but it's just too much stuff.
Bro, I would not play a digital board game over an actual video game in any case besides playing with people if we can't get physically together but that seems like a very niche thing.
Ive had the big box since 2019... I organized it all with an insert but was too intimidated to play it since it is gonna be solo.. Picked up Jaws of the lion and it makes the game so easy to learn!
That intro! Omg. I subbed just based on that. Great commentary too. Very funny and open review. Great point that everything you need for this massive journey is all in one package. I’ve spent more on lesser games going through expansion content. GH isn’t for everybody, but it ticks all the boxes for me... in a giant box.
@@Shelfside np Ashton. You guys deserve kudos and more subs. :). I thought your JoTL review was great too. Nice to have games reviews by people who actually play them... not just one time review copies. (Though I get that you’re not invested in GH.). If you enjoy dice-chucking mechanics and that’s one of the elements missing for you in GH, have you tried Too Many Bones? That may be more of your style - though the price to go all-in... gasp!. (Apologies if you’ve already reviewed TMB... I’m just now on to your content.). Anyway, Best to you both! - Luke
@@lp9092 Cheers! Yeah I'm not the most invested in GH, but still curious to see what FH has. I have not tried Too Many Bones, yet a good friend has a copy we're supposed to play soon! There's a certain sweet spot where there's not TOO much dice chucking for me in a game though, something like HeroQuest can be quite a bit, Descent 2nd ed hit a good middle ground. Will have to investigate this topic further! -Ashton
@@Shelfside sweet. If you get some plays in I’ll look forward to hearing what you think of TMB. I originally wrote off Bones because it was so rule-heavy and seemed bad on TTS. (NoPunIncluded: “It’s a great game to play with your friends... if you don’t want to be friends anymore.”) But I gave it a few goes on the physical version and found it rewarding and fun.
I have to say I agree wholly with Ashton on this one. I just do NOT get the appeal of the combat in this game. It's the worst part of the game for me. It's so incredibly limiting and as was mentioned in the review, it's all built around not getting hit, which makes tanking useless. If the rules allowed you to use either the top OR bottom half of every card, it would be a little better, but programming out actions while forcing you to limit your own options as time goes on (discarding and burning) seems to contradict itself.
Do you mean top plus bottom half? Cause atm you can use either the top or bottom of each card, which makes the programming not so stuck in execution since you can pick from multiple options instead of most programming games where you must execute the program exactly as made. Also Ashton in general doesn't vibe with games that require planning out multiple turns ahead when it's decently complex and prefers just doing actions here and now during turns, plus he hates co-ops unless it's more thematic dice rolling dungeon crawling shenanigans, which Gloomhaven isn't really. For my tastes in wanting really crunchy dungeon crawler combat, this game provides it in strides! -Daniel
@@Shelfside Yeah, I meant top PLUS bottom. I guess I'm that way too, preferring to just take the actions right then, instead of trying to predict what the enemy is going to do and program it all out, not to mention having to burn up cards and actions just to pick up gold. Idk it just seems to take it too far. I pledged for Oathsworn 2nd edition, so hopefully that will be to my liking.
Played like 10 scenarios in this game and this video is the first time I noticed the damage tokens have numbers on them. Personally I like to load damage tokens onto enemies as HP tokens and take them off as damage is dealt so it's easier to tell at a glance what is close to being dead.
Best review I've seen of this game. Looks neat but i dont think it's quite for me as for this much upkeep I'd rather play a video game but I'm super happy to see board gamed hitting this point where they can basically be an offline video game. Awesome job.
I beat jotl solo and beat half of gloomhaven solo and still have an amazing time but I had to take a long break bc it definitely is a puzzle and when playing solo with 3 and 4 characters, it becomes exhausting after a while but I still love it and will finish it one day.
Circles and Two-Minis are probably my favourite two classes :D I consider Gloomhaven helper to be pretty much essential if you want to play scenarios in a timely manner, it tracks sooooooooooooo much stuff that would otherwise be fiddly little things on the table and allows you to get into playing quicker since you dont have to spend a heap of time setting up the monsters with their ability and stat cards. Have also found it way easier to check how much health and what status conditions a monster has through the app than from the included components. Jaws tutorial is, imo, the best board game tutorial I have ever encountered. Also I feel like if the Gloomhaven scenarios were more unique, closer to Forgotten Circles' scenarios, it would feel a lot less repetitive towards the end even with the "Kill all enemies" goals. Also if they had the hybrids in Gloomhaven that would have added a good deal more variety and new challenges.
While one wouldn't expect a game of this calibre (read: price) to have some of these issues you listed (especially ones concerning components, tokens, tiles etc.) most are easily mitigated but yes, mitigation does require extra investment in terms of components not included in the box. For example, I'm using dice instead of tokens for damage (and I'm not the only one), and I even got some TerrainCrate stuff and some aquarium equipment to replace the overlay tiles (that is purely because I wanted to see how it would look like. It looks amazing :P). Hell, I even got some pebbles from the beach to represent some obstacles, and I made some pillars and columns out of clay lol. Those looked horrible but for a few sessions they adorned our map tiles. I personally don't mind the fiddliness around monster attack cards, conditions, elements etc. If anything I find the app equally fiddly, as I'm just replacing fiddle with a faddle, but that's okay, to each their own, obviously. I don't even mind the repetitiveness of most of these scenarios. My partner and I are casual players and we don't get into the nitty gritty of how this item behaves with this class or how this ability is comboing (or not) off of that or this, we just play and try to make the best of it. We are surprisingly good at it, for the lack of in depth analysis. Two biggest problems we have with GH are unbalanced scenarios for certain classes (that's definitely a thing, even WE can see that) and the story itself is so meh and lost in everything that's happening it stops being important or even clear after a few side quests. We are near the end of the main story line and for the love of it I have NO idea what's happening, who's who, what we are trying to do, who said what, who we killed when, nothing. I hope Frosthaven will have some better system of story tracking.
Custom map and overlay tiles always looked amazing based on what I've seen from the subreddit, but I'd personally save the effort for something like DnD over Gloomhaven lol Regarding fiddliness, what's important at the end of the day is to use whatever you feel the most comfortable and efficient with, but there's also the fact that using digital tools allows a speed that unfortunately isn't possible when using all physical components (click is always faster than reaching around, and there's no need to setup monster stats/cards). It unfortunately absolutely is a real thing that tons of players are put off by how much bookkeeping is involved with Gloomhaven. I also have high hopes for Frosthaven since they've hired a writer and have an excerpt book you read from constantly when doing certain things in the game, which hopefully makes the narrative more focused! -Daniel
54:03 Or how about solving around 50% of the puzzle but being blissfully unaware that the most important bit was locked behind a retirement goal, because by random chance that retirement goal never got seen? Honestly after devoting an embarrassing amount of time into solving this puzzle that pissed me off so much I actually stopped playing the game for 6 months.
actually, these "cons" make me want to play gloom haven again. My experience is that its really hard at low levels, but you are saying it gets easier as I progress? wow. makes me wanna play. My con is that the gameplay itself is repetitive; not just the scenario objectives, but the actual spending cards/initiative thingie.
I also thought the gameplay was repetitive at first until we unlocked more classes and items, at which point build possibilities got absolutely crazy. However, if you're referring to the intrinsic loop of play cards-rest-play cards, then of course that's never going to change, more like the actions your cards can do get weirder. -Daniel
I started with Jaws and it is perfect for me. 90 scenarios is not really a plus because I want to play other games, I would get bored at some point. As great as the game mechanics are, I probably won't purchase the big box or even Frosthaven but who knows maybe at some point I let myself tempted.
So first of, thank you for the wonderful video. Secondly, unless I get it for dirt cheap, I am never getting GH the board game. There are so many better games out there, it's not worth my time and money.
I just watched a boardgame review that is as long as a movie on a boardgame I have already played dozens of times. I am really into this hobby it seems.
Agree that "kill all enemy" scenarios are way too common, but if those rare objective quests feel like "kill all enemies" it's because you're playing too low of a difficulty
Yeah I'd agree with this sentiment for the vast majority of the game, but also with sufficiently skilled players there's a tipping point around level 7+. At that point unless everyone is purposefully playing with underpowered classes and items, the game's difficulty doesn't really meaningfully scale even on +2/3. Thankfully in Frosthaven, difficulty 6 & 7 for the enemies are going to scale much higher than in Gloomhaven! -Daniel
Bro, gloomhave shines when someone takes the DM role of fabricating an story, and make his own scenarios. The first thing we ditched, was the tiles, and got some hex paper and went to town with a printer. Also added some skills ala DnD 5e and made some scenarios for roleplaying. Thats the coolest reason to have gloomhaven, it becomes a Dnd experience, all in itself, with a ton of structure.
This video has made me realize my biggest problem with Gloomhaven is I'm not playing it with Daniel. Incredibly detailed and thorough review. A masterpiece you might say.
Agreed! Daniel, do you go on the GH Digital Discord channel by chance? Keen to play with ya!
Naw, I always just play with my pals atm, but I'd be interested later on! Right now I'm looking more into the possibility of streaming Gloomhaven digital
-Daniel
I am here to say a few things: 1) I'm an Ashton fan, but I am really hoping that Daniel gets unleashed now that his two year project is over. 2) Recalibrating viewers to the idea that a 7 rating is good = brilliant and SO NECESSARY. The gig economy and associated apps have ruined the 1-5 or 1-10 scale. Thank you for addressing that critical element of all reviews. And 3) this is one of the best, most well thought out, written, and edited reviews I have ever watched (of any media). Your channel has quickly shot up my subs to my top three among boardgames channels. Well done and thank you!
god damn daniel, this is a masterpiece!
Yoooo thanks for the comment!
-Daniel
The intros do convince you to stay for the whole 1 hour qnd 30 minutes of the video tho.
Fantastic! I'll probably never play Gloomhaven, but now I feel like I understand it. Plus so many insights on game design. Thank you for putting the time and effort into making this!
glad ya got a lot out of it! Cheers! -Ashton
The sit down & shut up mat saying "its a little rat" in the intro
I always felt your guys delivery was sometimes inspired by Egoraptor. Maybe there's some truth to it 🧐🧐.
Very much some truth to it
-Daniel
I am so happy to see my art getting featured at 25:19. You guys truly make killer videos, please keep them coming.
Amazing review. Funny, fast-paced, and fair.
I don’t really enjoy dungeon crawlers or co-ops, so I have close to no interest in Gloomhaven, but I’ll be god damned if I’m not going to watch this whole thing. You fellas are just…. Very fucking entertaining.
That intro has so many references, from Obi Wan to SUASD and Egoraptor, it was glorious.
Please don't call them SUASD, that just feels wrong :D
I just got home after a 5 hour drive from getting away for a long weekend. This video kept me entertained whilst unpacking, tidying and getting the clothes washed. Thank you. Now to play some gloomhaven. 👍👍👍
I agree with Ashton's review. I wanted to like it but I ended up hating it. Yet one of my favourite games is Mage Knight which shares some similarities. But unlike MK I quickly got burned out by GH, which is weird considering that MK is more complex
I came in wanting to hate it but ended up liking it LOL
-Daniel
7 is good.
This guy gets it
-Daniel
A friend and I finished the campaign (around 55-60 scenarios for us, most but not all unlocks) over about a year and a half playing one scenario every week or two. We only lost a couple of times total.
We used the Gloomhaven Helper app to manage the encounters (I consider it essential) as I absolutely HATE the fiddliness required out of the box.
I don't regret playing, but near the end I was entirely sick of the game and probably would have just quit except my friend was enjoying it more than me. We stopped going for unlocks and side quests near the end and just rushed the campaign story (or "story" is more appropriate as the narrative and writing are quite weak).
After we finished, I packed everything up, including an unopened Forgotten Circles, and gave it all to my friend. A couple of years later and I still have zero interest in the system and will completely skip Jaws of the Lion and Frosthaven.
Yeah the repetitiveness is really big problem if you're trying to do a sizable amount of scenarios, the game would've definitely benefited from less scenarios but they were more individually unique.
-Daniel
As usual, an amazingly comprehensive and entertaining review! Thank you for taking so much time to put it together 🤠👍
The opening had me absolutely stunned. Amazing piece of work! I found myself laughing upon recognizing Egoraptor's voice and Matt Lees from Shut Up & Sit Down. The special effects were very well done. Mad props. :D
I've played Jaws of the Lion for 5 missions with my datefriend. I liked that pretty well, but Gloomhaven itself would be too huge for me (though minis always tempt me). Gloomhaven digital would be cool to try though. I figure I might have the same thing with Scythe digital in that Gloomhaven digital would cut down SO MUCH on the downtime. (Also a big reason why I like BoardGameArena.) Games on a physical tabletop in my house should have that in-person experience add on to the whole experience, not detract from it. Gloomhaven seems like it COULD hit just right... or completely fail at that.
Gloomhaven (200h+) and Scythe (20h+) are 2 excellent games on Steam that I probably could never get to the table in physical form.
The digital argument is ridiculous. Then I could make a case to give up board games altogether and only play video games because you can do more with them
Guys these new intros are CRAZY GREAT! :D
maybe the best gloomhaven video i've seen
Thank you! More haven stuff coming from us :) -Ashton
Hi! From the future. Frosthaven does a lot of things right. And oooo I just unlocked Coral and now I understand why you’re so excited.
I know that you get a great deal of Gloomhaven done through digital, does that mean you’ll ever get into Crimson Scales and Trail of Ashes? I really dig the dev-blogs about the character creation process for those.
I definitely want to play them, but no idea when I'll get around to them it's real busy behind the scenes here (Frosthaven review is in its final stages of editing after all these months lol)
-Daniel
Watched this a second time while making some food. Such a great overview of a large game! Nice job! 👍👀👍
I have to say while I also like the Digital version of Gloomhaven with my friends we all agree that digital will never beat physical for us. Its just simply more fun for us personally to play with each other face to face and actually touch the components. But the one bad thing I will say is that the game absolutely benefits from an organizer as it makes the setup way faster and efficient. So if you are gonna get this already expensive game a organizer is highly recommended and it ads more to the overall price. Is it worth it still? In our humble opinion absolutely yes and me and my friends cannot wait for Frosthaven.
looking forward to your forgotten circles review ;P Awesome video!
Game sounds boring. How about a Heroquest review?
These intro segments could certainly be a big part of your "thing", unique to your channel.
Gloomhaven is the grandfather of cardboard bloat.
Incredible epic review. Can’t believe I watched in entirety. Balanced review.
Much appreciated!
Very well thought out and comprehensive review- absolutely brilliant chaps I applaud you! Ps was gutted with Ashton’s score… and SO happy when I got Daniel’s LOL
i got 700+ hrs in this game with dozens of hours on almost all chars n having tried out all major builds on said chars and still, i couldnt help but watch this with a fat smile on my face. tyvm
Hell yeah! I wish I was that deep lol I have a responsibility to play other games haha
-Daniel
Yo was that an Ashton impression at 30:30 ?
Wasn't trying to be but now that you bring it up i cant unhear it
-Daniel
I'm glad you went over the Gloomhaven games! Daniel doesn't disappoint! Quality review
Thanks!
GH JOTL is 10/10 for me.
Amusing story and impressive to have finished it. The conclusion is that it’s unbalanced midway on, you need digital solutions and therefore you might as well play other video games.
I realized I’m done with analog fiddliness. I’d rather play board games optimized for something specific rather than a modular system like GH.
But my biggest gripe with GH is that I dislike the art, the font. The lack of world lore. The lack of motivation for my heroes and the lack of npc interaction.
If all that’s left is hex based combat, play Memoir or Hoplomachus Victorum.
I hope the world building will be better in FH and that unlockables will have requirements. That event cards display what card they originated from.
FH will likely be better but Isofarian will be delivered earlier so I’ll play that first.
Certainly with you on the fiddliness and theme/presentation of the game. I just can't get into it! Stil boggles my mind how Daniel is so into it. I also like neuroshima hex/monolith arena for my hex play, but I suppose that isn't a dungeon crawler ahaha. Here's to hoping what's next in FH -Ashton
Gloomhaven really is repetitive AH. I think the board-gaming community as a whole had a "honeymoon period" with this one...
I'm convinced that most people don't make it that far into the game lol
-Daniel
Lol about the conversation about X and your saw status.
Yeah my experience with X was a complete shitshow lmao
-Daniel
Thanks for the amazing videos! I randomly recently played a Gloomhaven game where the owner just handed out 4 random tuckboxes and we opened up to scenario one and went at it. He only played once before and was never going to actually play as a proper campaign so it worked out rather well.
That's great to hear! People are always so intimidated by the prospect of starting a massive campaign with the massive box so it's cool seeing people just diving in without caring!
-Daniel
Never played Gloomhaven but loved this review.
New subscriber on this review that I'm only 37 minutes into. Why have I not heard of Shelfside before???
RUclips algorithm works in mysterious ways lol
-Daniel
What I find incredibly odd about this game is how it is treated as disposable. Imagine you buy monopoly and instead of the houses and hotels, it come with a permanent marker and when you purchase a house on Park Place, you just write 'House' in permanent marker on the board. It's ridiculous. Who spends 140$ on a game and then destroys that game as they play it? When you play digital, does the program delete itself as you play? I get that the Legacy aspect of the game makes re-playability poor, but that's up to me if I want to play again, or have 2 groups going at once. Writing on the actual scenario book? one time use stickers that ruin the board and cards for any future play? Who does that? It can only be logically explained as a marketing tool to sell more games.
As a long time gamer (45 years plus) who generally plays more complicated games than this (Hex and counter war games, 300 page rule books, yes, I've even played about 60 turns of Campaign for North Africa) and this is the first time in my life I've seen a game designed to be destroyed as you play it. It's not ok. Yes, I ordered the replaceable sticker set. Yes, I will make copies of things to write on rather than the original. For 140$, it takes real balls and some questionable ethics (at best) to make a game that you destroy as you play, Legacy or not.
Have you tried Mage Knight? I got it when the pandemic first struck after researching best solo games. It is a fantastic game that I have played many times and would not ever play multiplayer. If you're looking for a dungeon crawler, asymmetry, and very relevant and well crafter character upgrades throughout a scenario, I would highly recommend.
played it once in high school with Daniel actually! Really enjoyed it, but yeah certainly wouldn't want to play multiplayer again. We'll have to give it a review one day since so many people bring it up :) -Ashton
Your guys reviews are great. Very thorough and well thought out.
I usually don’t watch 1hr plus review videos, but your charismas make it enjoyable. Keep up the good work. PS this is my 5th video watching (watched from beginning to end: Tainted Grail, Bloodrage, Ankh, Rising Sun and this one).
Awesome! Thank you!
Thanks for breaking the game down man! The real question, though: have you looked....UNDER the black box insert?
You're a braver man than I
If you look carefully in the video when components are on screen, it's definitely there lol
-Daniel
I have been on the fence about this game for a loooong time. I love the idea and I love the art and the idea of getting into something like it. For someone like me I love dice rolls for
Combat and defense it’s just what I’m used to, cards just feels a lot less of an intensity. But I’ll probably still buy it so when I rewatch this for the 8th time I can all the more understand the pain of how huge the game is.
I know me too, clunking dice down, with the sound and the hand action, much more simulates doing a real attack! More so than flipping over a card or, as in some games, drawing a chit from a bag.
What a staggeringly incisive and comprehensive review. I can only begin to imagine the amount of work that went to it. As epic and monstrously detailed as the game itself.
Oh, it was bloody funny, too.
Incredible.
Thanks! Yeah this took a few months for sure hahaha
-Daniel
Lots of great insights and love the 3 scores you guys use at the end of your reviews. Cheers!
Great video! GH has never interested me personally. I do have JOTL in shrink, not in a hurry to play it though. Did get it for $30 seemed like a screaming deal. One day I'll play it and if I like it I'm sure I will be able to find original GH on Ebay on the cheap.
Definitely the way to go! Seeing if you like the combat just from playing Jaws will make or break your experience lol
-Daniel
How can you talk about this game for 90 minutes?
Iz a beeeg game with biiig box
-Daniel
So thankful for Ashton’s score. I’ve been thinking I’ve been missing something after my few plays of this game, but I realized euro style gaming isn’t for me, especially in a dungeon crawl. Thanks for all your hard work! Love your long form videos.
Cheers! Still hasn't budged after all of these years :) -Ashton
We need a Eclipse: Second Dawn for the Galaxy Review
The envelopes are the reason I use house-rules in most games.
awesome review...! ain't anyone in the comments going to point out and fuss that Dark Soul is called out while Bloodborne is shown?? reallyyyy? you guys are just pretending.
it do be called the soulsborne genre
-Daniel
4/10 is accurate.
Gloomhaven is overrated, broken and is really an Euro card game puzzle with a dungeon crawler theme pasted on. I love Descent, Imperial Assault, HeroQuest, Advanced HeroQuest, Cthulhu Death May Die, and Mansions of Madness.
imo the gameplay definitely still has the fundamental structure of a dungeon crawl so it's not just an aesthetic/theme, but after just coming from reviewing Scythe maybe my standards have shifted haha (that game is just fundamentally not a 4x in gameplay and way more of a euro resource management puzzle)
-Daniel
Kudos to the best gloomhaven review ever. A++
Egoraptor, in a gloomhaven video?!
Nice review, and quite fair!
Egoraptor was my childhood lol
-Daniel
The elephant in the room is that its a consim, and it does a horrible job at it.
I use mini dice to track enemy HP
It's funny to me watching this because... well... The comparison to Descent 2nd edition and liking it at the end. I actually vehemently hate playing Descent 2nd edition lol. It feels so mindless, so shallow, the fact that you're always just trying to complete an objective and ignoring monsters is a mechanic I just hate. It's occasional in Gloomhaven that you don't have to kill everything but I feel that's a good balance. I really like playing Gloomhaven by comparison. (My personal score was 8/10... I really don't like Forgotten Circles though)
This review was longer than most board games, and I love it.
I just wanted to stop after the intro and say... my first character was the cragheart, and i loved that someone else noticed his belt says Kyle. It's like the class was made for me!
It's actually a decently popular joke within the community haha
-Daniel
Nice lil’ Matt cameo :)
Have you played 'Gunshi, The Art of Strategy'? I received it today. I bought it blindly, and I'm wondering how it's viewed by the gaming community.
The much anticipated and incredible LORD DANIEL review is finally upon us. I thank thee oh great patron of wisdom and JANK!
This guy's hyper anime spirit is just entertaining to watch. Wonder how he got so much energy to talk nonstop I'm constantly hooked! LOL!
xD
I enjoy the game, but I didn't end up loving it like I thought I would. That probably comes down to hype and expectation rather than anything else, and it was honestly comforting to see Ashton's review, agreeing with everything and realizing that I am not the only person in the world that wasn't blown away by it, because it sure feels that way sometimes. I had to keep playing because I figured it must just click or get better or something, because that many people can't be wrong. I have had fun with it, so I would give it a 6 or 7 out of 10, and I am glad that other people really do love it, I just didn't feel the same love unfortunately.
(Cover your ears Ashton)
Every so often i come back to watch this video just for the intro, and to hear someone talk about GH who appreciates it as much as i do. And Daniel is funny as hell.
I sold Gloomhaven recently after it sat on my shelf for more more than two years unplayed (Excepted for when I played half of the first scenario). The game seemed okay...but it's just too much stuff.
You'll have to do a review of 2.0
Bro, I would not play a digital board game over an actual video game in any case besides playing with people if we can't get physically together but that seems like a very niche thing.
Ive had the big box since 2019... I organized it all with an insert but was too intimidated to play it since it is gonna be solo.. Picked up Jaws of the lion and it makes the game so easy to learn!
That intro! Omg. I subbed just based on that. Great commentary too. Very funny and open review. Great point that everything you need for this massive journey is all in one package. I’ve spent more on lesser games going through expansion content. GH isn’t for everybody, but it ticks all the boxes for me... in a giant box.
Thank you! This game really is a journey and Daniel did a splendid job putting this all together. Can't wait for FH! -Ashton
@@Shelfside np Ashton. You guys deserve kudos and more subs. :). I thought your JoTL review was great too. Nice to have games reviews by people who actually play them... not just one time review copies. (Though I get that you’re not invested in GH.). If you enjoy dice-chucking mechanics and that’s one of the elements missing for you in GH, have you tried Too Many Bones? That may be more of your style - though the price to go all-in... gasp!. (Apologies if you’ve already reviewed TMB... I’m just now on to your content.). Anyway, Best to you both! - Luke
@@lp9092 Cheers! Yeah I'm not the most invested in GH, but still curious to see what FH has. I have not tried Too Many Bones, yet a good friend has a copy we're supposed to play soon! There's a certain sweet spot where there's not TOO much dice chucking for me in a game though, something like HeroQuest can be quite a bit, Descent 2nd ed hit a good middle ground. Will have to investigate this topic further! -Ashton
@@Shelfside sweet. If you get some plays in I’ll look forward to hearing what you think of TMB. I originally wrote off Bones because it was so rule-heavy and seemed bad on TTS. (NoPunIncluded: “It’s a great game to play with your friends... if you don’t want to be friends anymore.”) But I gave it a few goes on the physical version and found it rewarding and fun.
@@lp9092 ahaha awesome! Yeah I think I would only play physical, quite dislike rolling dice on TTS :3 -Ashton
I have to say I agree wholly with Ashton on this one. I just do NOT get the appeal of the combat in this game. It's the worst part of the game for me. It's so incredibly limiting and as was mentioned in the review, it's all built around not getting hit, which makes tanking useless.
If the rules allowed you to use either the top OR bottom half of every card, it would be a little better, but programming out actions while forcing you to limit your own options as time goes on (discarding and burning) seems to contradict itself.
Do you mean top plus bottom half? Cause atm you can use either the top or bottom of each card, which makes the programming not so stuck in execution since you can pick from multiple options instead of most programming games where you must execute the program exactly as made. Also Ashton in general doesn't vibe with games that require planning out multiple turns ahead when it's decently complex and prefers just doing actions here and now during turns, plus he hates co-ops unless it's more thematic dice rolling dungeon crawling shenanigans, which Gloomhaven isn't really. For my tastes in wanting really crunchy dungeon crawler combat, this game provides it in strides!
-Daniel
@@Shelfside
Yeah, I meant top PLUS bottom. I guess I'm that way too, preferring to just take the actions right then, instead of trying to predict what the enemy is going to do and program it all out, not to mention having to burn up cards and actions just to pick up gold. Idk it just seems to take it too far. I pledged for Oathsworn 2nd edition, so hopefully that will be to my liking.
Thank you for the video
Heck of a thorough review.
4/10? Yeah, that equals Pass for me. I'll try Jaws, though.
Thank you for the video
sing the wild wild west song :)
Screaming under the approach of Hero Quest made me crack up so badly. 🤣
Played like 10 scenarios in this game and this video is the first time I noticed the damage tokens have numbers on them. Personally I like to load damage tokens onto enemies as HP tokens and take them off as damage is dealt so it's easier to tell at a glance what is close to being dead.
Siding with Ashton on this, but enjoying the long form reviews!
Best review I've seen of this game. Looks neat but i dont think it's quite for me as for this much upkeep I'd rather play a video game but I'm super happy to see board gamed hitting this point where they can basically be an offline video game. Awesome job.
I beat jotl solo and beat half of gloomhaven solo and still have an amazing time but I had to take a long break bc it definitely is a puzzle and when playing solo with 3 and 4 characters, it becomes exhausting after a while but I still love it and will finish it one day.
Thanks! Thisbwas a great video!Not even done with JOTL but found a super deal on Gloomhaven, I cant wait to start, but I must, I must wait..
Circles and Two-Minis are probably my favourite two classes :D I consider Gloomhaven helper to be pretty much essential if you want to play scenarios in a timely manner, it tracks sooooooooooooo much stuff that would otherwise be fiddly little things on the table and allows you to get into playing quicker since you dont have to spend a heap of time setting up the monsters with their ability and stat cards. Have also found it way easier to check how much health and what status conditions a monster has through the app than from the included components.
Jaws tutorial is, imo, the best board game tutorial I have ever encountered. Also I feel like if the Gloomhaven scenarios were more unique, closer to Forgotten Circles' scenarios, it would feel a lot less repetitive towards the end even with the "Kill all enemies" goals. Also if they had the hybrids in Gloomhaven that would have added a good deal more variety and new challenges.
While one wouldn't expect a game of this calibre (read: price) to have some of these issues you listed (especially ones concerning components, tokens, tiles etc.) most are easily mitigated but yes, mitigation does require extra investment in terms of components not included in the box. For example, I'm using dice instead of tokens for damage (and I'm not the only one), and I even got some TerrainCrate stuff and some aquarium equipment to replace the overlay tiles (that is purely because I wanted to see how it would look like. It looks amazing :P). Hell, I even got some pebbles from the beach to represent some obstacles, and I made some pillars and columns out of clay lol. Those looked horrible but for a few sessions they adorned our map tiles.
I personally don't mind the fiddliness around monster attack cards, conditions, elements etc. If anything I find the app equally fiddly, as I'm just replacing fiddle with a faddle, but that's okay, to each their own, obviously. I don't even mind the repetitiveness of most of these scenarios. My partner and I are casual players and we don't get into the nitty gritty of how this item behaves with this class or how this ability is comboing (or not) off of that or this, we just play and try to make the best of it. We are surprisingly good at it, for the lack of in depth analysis.
Two biggest problems we have with GH are unbalanced scenarios for certain classes (that's definitely a thing, even WE can see that) and the story itself is so meh and lost in everything that's happening it stops being important or even clear after a few side quests. We are near the end of the main story line and for the love of it I have NO idea what's happening, who's who, what we are trying to do, who said what, who we killed when, nothing. I hope Frosthaven will have some better system of story tracking.
Custom map and overlay tiles always looked amazing based on what I've seen from the subreddit, but I'd personally save the effort for something like DnD over Gloomhaven lol
Regarding fiddliness, what's important at the end of the day is to use whatever you feel the most comfortable and efficient with, but there's also the fact that using digital tools allows a speed that unfortunately isn't possible when using all physical components (click is always faster than reaching around, and there's no need to setup monster stats/cards). It unfortunately absolutely is a real thing that tons of players are put off by how much bookkeeping is involved with Gloomhaven.
I also have high hopes for Frosthaven since they've hired a writer and have an excerpt book you read from constantly when doing certain things in the game, which hopefully makes the narrative more focused!
-Daniel
You are just cool when you explain a game in-between. Thanks ;)
I have that table.
One of the best reviews I have ever seen.. So fast, precise, efficient... fantastic
54:03 Or how about solving around 50% of the puzzle but being blissfully unaware that the most important bit was locked behind a retirement goal, because by random chance that retirement goal never got seen? Honestly after devoting an embarrassing amount of time into solving this puzzle that pissed me off so much I actually stopped playing the game for 6 months.
Yeah all the clues should've been available either instantly or along some sort of set path you can work towards
-Daniel
actually, these "cons" make me want to play gloom haven again. My experience is that its really hard at low levels, but you are saying it gets easier as I progress? wow. makes me wanna play. My con is that the gameplay itself is repetitive; not just the scenario objectives, but the actual spending cards/initiative thingie.
I also thought the gameplay was repetitive at first until we unlocked more classes and items, at which point build possibilities got absolutely crazy. However, if you're referring to the intrinsic loop of play cards-rest-play cards, then of course that's never going to change, more like the actions your cards can do get weirder.
-Daniel
I started with Jaws and it is perfect for me. 90 scenarios is not really a plus because I want to play other games, I would get bored at some point. As great as the game mechanics are, I probably won't purchase the big box or even Frosthaven but who knows maybe at some point I let myself tempted.
Totally valid, playing Gloomhaven and Frosthaven has me questioning why I even have other board games lol
-Daniel
Music in intro makes me want to have a chill drum break
So first of, thank you for the wonderful video.
Secondly, unless I get it for dirt cheap, I am never getting GH the board game.
There are so many better games out there, it's not worth my time and money.
cheers! Glad this vid helped ya -Ashton
I just watched a boardgame review that is as long as a movie on a boardgame I have already played dozens of times. I am really into this hobby it seems.
Agree that "kill all enemy" scenarios are way too common, but if those rare objective quests feel like "kill all enemies" it's because you're playing too low of a difficulty
Yeah I'd agree with this sentiment for the vast majority of the game, but also with sufficiently skilled players there's a tipping point around level 7+. At that point unless everyone is purposefully playing with underpowered classes and items, the game's difficulty doesn't really meaningfully scale even on +2/3. Thankfully in Frosthaven, difficulty 6 & 7 for the enemies are going to scale much higher than in Gloomhaven!
-Daniel
I'd just play the digital version at this point
Bro, gloomhave shines when someone takes the DM role of fabricating an story, and make his own scenarios. The first thing we ditched, was the tiles, and got some hex paper and went to town with a printer. Also added some skills ala DnD 5e and made some scenarios for roleplaying. Thats the coolest reason to have gloomhaven, it becomes a Dnd experience, all in itself, with a ton of structure.
sounds awesome!
Holy crap 90 minutes!
its really great how many things GH 2nd seem to adress in the negative section.
Yea I could entirely remove the gameplay cons minus the time length one which is kinda wild
-Daniel
@@Shelfside Indeed, its what you want from a "remake", so glad they listened.
it will be even my first dive into the game, so i feel lucky there.
That dude on 1:00 whiplashed his head so hard on that concrete. Totally his fault.