Well...I was all for the 542 hp until I seen the graph and was brutally reminded why you don't make decisions based on peak numbers. 😂. Great video as always. ✌️😊
a 5000 stall and a 250 shot of nitrous will make the higher HP motor all good ;) What's that you said? You want to put this in your truck? well, um....
No one ever factors torque at the tires, the 542hp at 1000 rpms higher needs deeper gears and stall, you only need 11% more gear to equal the torque, would the 511 hp be more streetable sure but faster no.
If the rev ranges are kept as shown on the dyno (7.8k vs. 7k peak rpm, and 1k rpm between the power peaks) I'd take the higher output engine for any sort of racing application short of tractor pulling or rock climbing. It would let you run much tighter gears (4.10 vs. 3.73 for example) while achieving the same speed in gear. That would mean that as long as you kept the engine between about 4800 and 7800 rpm the high revver would be faster by a fair bit, and even if you occasionally dipped to 4500 you'd be ok. For a street car, or truck, the low hp engine all the way. Even with a 3500 rpm stall converter on an auto the torquier engine would be better almost all the time. You'd need to have something in the 4000-4500 stall range for the high revver and that's no fun on the street.
Was hoping to see the FAST run in place of the BTR intake with the larger cam. By the curves, I'm thinking there would likely be little difference between it and the red hot cam with the FAST installed.
@@richardholdener1727 my mistake, my memory failed me. I corrected that, still very respectable for 30 years ago. I have 5 fox's and 2 sn cars, only one of them is still 100% stock and it's still pretty strong.
Agree with others ... unless you're just going for a max effort HP number, take the 511 hp 5.3. It's going to do the job much better and stay together a lot longer than the 542 hp version. Keep your revs down below 6800 rippems and your L33 will continue to belt out the show tunes on a regular basis.
Depends on application. Are we running a close rario transmission? Whats the tire height, diff options, and whats the race application? If you can run either a very close ratio 4 speed or something with 6 or more gears, the 542hp motor might turn out to be fast in most forms of racing, provided you can offset the RPM range difference with a ring and pinion swap. But... If you freeze all that. Tell me that the transmission, wheel height, and diff ratio are all static.... Well then 512 starts to look better. Also, if this is a street car tipping 3k+ lbs and a 40+lb flywheel for nice manners, then I'd be taking the 512hp motor every time. If we're putting it in a sub 2500lb gutted race car with a sequential I'm flipping that choice around though.
Street or dual purpose-no contest! Drag race vehicle-no contest! Really interesting that we see enough cam to reduce the torque curve that much. I wonder if you could get some back with a lot more compression, like 12 or 13:1. With that much cam the high rev version might still run on 91…
Take the higher hp one. Then just add boost till its making the amount of torque you want and injoy the extra topend. Its not just about extra hp , being able to rev over 1000rpm higher has many benefits as well
I just would not give up all that torque goodness on the street. If I was racing the other setup would be my choice. You need the torque to get the weight of the vehicle moving for the street. I think you would also get better mileage.
I think this is a perfect example of a cam that is too big for an engine, you can see how the port velocity doesn’t overcome the bleed off from very late intake valve closing until very high in the rev range. I think the 542hp combo would work exceptionally well with a 3.9” stroker kit, but you’re also probably better off with performance per dollar of a 6.0 or a 6.2 at that point.
Would be interesting to add boost to see if the torque and horse power follow the original torque and horse power graph or not. Ya know train tracking from the original.
I have a carbed L33 with very similar cam as the 511 hp build. Love it. I put it in my 240Z autocrosser and I appreciate the low end torque coming out of slow corners. I was a bit worried about the trunnions, so I upgraded to the bronze bushing style. Noticed that you said you were still running stock rockers out at 7500 rpm. At what point are those trunnion upgrades absolutely necessary, in your opinion?
I deal in big hp 2.0 turbo and power from 4k up to 7800 is way more fun than a peak hp build. Add a turbo to both and see what happens. That would be a monster!
None of the 5.3 LS LGM Combinations have enough normal Aspirated torque to satisfy myself longterm. I have been experiencing driving 500-550 ft/lbs normal Aspirated torque and up to 600 Hp Racing likewise. Need 454 BBC and Pontiac 455 old school cubic inched here. After No Name Nationals 2023 1/8 mile racing in my 454 Gen 6 1997 C2500 pickup 5000 lbs I showed all Torque is King and I can still drive and I am the Legendary Street Racer here !
Very cool comparison. I gotta go with the higher torque. Quick question. Is it worth going with the 11/32 pushrods over the 5/16? Either 1 I buy will be hardened chrome moly. I'm building a LQ4, truck norris cam, 706 ported heads, I might turbo it. Still not sure going into a military humvee
WE RAN 5/16THS PUSHORDS ON EVERY MOTOR I EVER TESTED, INCLUDING 8000 RPM STUFF AND 1543-HP BOOSTED STUFF-I TESTED THICK WALL (.105) PUSHRODS AGAINST .080 WALL AND IT SHOWED NOTHING.
it depends on what I am putting the engine in. if it is going on my 2010 Tahoe, I want the one that makes more torque. if I am putting it in a BMW E36, I will take the one that makes more hp. it has to do with application of the engine. I would love to build one like the high torque one for my Tahoe. wondering though, the TBSS manifold compared to the FAST 102, wouldn't the TBSS manifold make more torque?
Was the shorter runner bigger cam tuned all the way? If the peak torque was 420ft-lb or 425ft-lb instead of 404ft-lb it would have been more sufficient. The 404 ft-lb is a HUGE drop off, not many would like that.
That 541hp one would beat the 511 in a circuit race. Power is what wins races. And also with that flat power curve you could drive it easier to cars grip limits.
Hi Richard, hoping you or someone else knowledgeable can give me some advice or feedback. I recently got a set of AFR heads for cheap and noticed some spots the cnc missed (extruding above the surface) in the combustion chamber, it is very minimal but I was going to sand them down and cc them to make sure they are all consistent. Is there anything I should worry about ? I wasn't sure if slightly altering the shape and surface finish would affect the flow that much. Should I replicate the same thing on the other side to get them with the same CC and polish them the same way or its negligible ? (maybe the size of a nickel or smaller below the intake valve on each chamber of 1 head)
Richard, what kind of power could you make if you replaced the pistons with some Mahla pistons to raise the compression, and used a cam that worked with those pistons, some head work to a set of 243/799 heads and a good intake? what spec cam would you use?
I’m building up an LQ4 right now with a Holley 750 double pumper and the truck Norris cam kit. Would a set of ported 799 heads be a good combo for my power plant? Any recommendations? I don’t plan on building the motor up much more than this.
You should build a 450-500 hp engine and then put full accessories. Mechanical water pump, alternator, power steering pump, AC pump and with and without fan. Real world conditions.😊
I have a crazy test for you courtesy of one pf my group chats I want to see how the air volume between the air filter and the throttle body affects the power curve and throttle response of a motor, as well as the idle quality. I think you fould do this by simply running a straight tube with a filter on the end, one of those ones that comes with the adapter rings for smaller tubing, and then use like a 1ft tube of each size tubing the filter can fit with the relevant adapter to the throttle body. This may show absolutely zero result or it may blow our minds. We'll see.
Reminds me of someone i worked with that argued the 350 hp 8.1 vortec could do as much work as a 350 hp, 10 liter Cummins that makes 600 more lbs/ft of torque. 😂
512hp alllll day. That's alot of hp loss across the board for a little extra gain up top. Not a good trade off in my eyes. For a street car, you'll feel that higher torque in the lower rpms running stop light to stop light.
im nt really impressed by ls engines become stagnant and boring blah no torque 400 lbft? a smog 350 came close why is ls being pushed so hard when theres so many other engines? ls is just a 3800 with 2 cylinders added anyway, but on that point reliable theres no question 3800s live 500k.
@richardholdener1727 No need for that kind of remark. I wasn't an arsehole about it. I don't get the notifications about your other content, just the chev stuff.
Sorry sir, but your comment was indeed chalk full of attitude. It was also based on inaccurate information. I simply provided the accurate information about the availability of numerous Ford (and other) videos. Enjoy
@richardholdener1727 far from any attitude at all. I was honest with my exposure to what I received, and I even said best of luck. I thought that was quite polite. If I wanted to give you attitude, mate, i'd have said something quite different and condensending, which i didn't.
There is an important lesson here that I have tried to teach my boys. Making a mistake demonstrates humanity, admitting the mistake demonstrates character. Thnx for all the comments-this will make an excellent topic of discussion for a live feed. I get the best ideas from viewers.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Well...I was all for the 542 hp until I seen the graph and was brutally reminded why you don't make decisions based on peak numbers. 😂. Great video as always. ✌️😊
Great point!
And now we talk BOOST! Yes give me the 511hp and then add boost! 15-20PSI???!@@richardholdener1727
a 5000 stall and a 250 shot of nitrous will make the higher HP motor all good ;)
What's that you said? You want to put this in your truck? well, um....
@@richardholdener1727Will you test the madd max camshaft?
No one ever factors torque at the tires, the 542hp at 1000 rpms higher needs deeper gears and stall, you only need 11% more gear to equal the torque, would the 511 hp be more streetable sure but faster no.
In torque we trust....
That graph shows everything you need to know. Very cool Sir Richard of Cam-a-lot
If the rev ranges are kept as shown on the dyno (7.8k vs. 7k peak rpm, and 1k rpm between the power peaks) I'd take the higher output engine for any sort of racing application short of tractor pulling or rock climbing. It would let you run much tighter gears (4.10 vs. 3.73 for example) while achieving the same speed in gear. That would mean that as long as you kept the engine between about 4800 and 7800 rpm the high revver would be faster by a fair bit, and even if you occasionally dipped to 4500 you'd be ok. For a street car, or truck, the low hp engine all the way. Even with a 3500 rpm stall converter on an auto the torquier engine would be better almost all the time. You'd need to have something in the 4000-4500 stall range for the high revver and that's no fun on the street.
Perfect cam. There you go. BTR 220-ish cam and a FAST intake. Boom. Mic drop.
Was hoping to see the FAST run in place of the BTR intake with the larger cam. By the curves, I'm thinking there would likely be little difference between it and the red hot cam with the FAST installed.
Would like to see this too.
Awesome comparison which reminds us to not go for peak numbers for street use.
Give me the torque... :)
What is wild to me is that a late 80's mustang 5.0 had 300lbs of torque BONE STOCK.
factory ratings were 225 hp and 300 lb-ft
@@richardholdener1727 my mistake, my memory failed me. I corrected that, still very respectable for 30 years ago. I have 5 fox's and 2 sn cars, only one of them is still 100% stock and it's still pretty strong.
IT IS RARE TO SEE STOCK 5.0LS-VERY COOL
And that lofty 300 lb-ft fell off a cliff before 5000 rpm....that’s why they made such low HP.
You’d have to be wide open on the interstate in final gear for that 542hp combo to come around that 512hp combo.
Runner length, one of the things that makes the LS great.
I'd take the 512 for my OBS C1500, but that 542 in a 69 Z28 might be fun.
I’d rather have the torque monster……….but I’d like to see the long runner manifold with the stage 4 cam profile
I'll take the torque especially in a small inch motor
Give me the one that makes more torque. Thanks, RICHARD, I love the videos
Agree with others ... unless you're just going for a max effort HP number, take the 511 hp 5.3. It's going to do the job much better and stay together a lot longer than the 542 hp version. Keep your revs down below 6800 rippems and your L33 will continue to belt out the show tunes on a regular basis.
Depends on application. Are we running a close rario transmission? Whats the tire height, diff options, and whats the race application? If you can run either a very close ratio 4 speed or something with 6 or more gears, the 542hp motor might turn out to be fast in most forms of racing, provided you can offset the RPM range difference with a ring and pinion swap.
But... If you freeze all that. Tell me that the transmission, wheel height, and diff ratio are all static.... Well then 512 starts to look better. Also, if this is a street car tipping 3k+ lbs and a 40+lb flywheel for nice manners, then I'd be taking the 512hp motor every time.
If we're putting it in a sub 2500lb gutted race car with a sequential I'm flipping that choice around though.
I'd run the lower powered version in a street/strip vehicle and the high HP in a dedicated race vehicle.
Would love to test a narrower LCA 105-107 and cross over headers.
Street or dual purpose-no contest! Drag race vehicle-no contest! Really interesting that we see enough cam to reduce the torque curve that much. I wonder if you could get some back with a lot more compression, like 12 or 13:1. With that much cam the high rev version might still run on 91…
it wasn't the cam that dropped torque
@@richardholdener1727 Right, short runner manifold. My bad
Take the higher hp one.
Then just add boost till its making the amount of torque you want and injoy the extra topend.
Its not just about extra hp , being able to rev over 1000rpm higher has many benefits as well
Carrol Shelby once said “ torque wins races not horsepower”….
Always depends what you’re putting it in!
I just would not give up all that torque goodness on the street. If I was racing the other setup would be my choice. You need the torque to get the weight of the vehicle moving for the street. I think you would also get better mileage.
After seeing your video I would have to say for my street car it would definitely be the 512 hp version.
I think this is a perfect example of a cam that is too big for an engine, you can see how the port velocity doesn’t overcome the bleed off from very late intake valve closing until very high in the rev range. I think the 542hp combo would work exceptionally well with a 3.9” stroker kit, but you’re also probably better off with performance per dollar of a 6.0 or a 6.2 at that point.
Higher average power instead of a few seconds at peak power!
I would like to see the Torquer V4 cam curve versus the Truck Norris cam.
Would be interesting to add boost to see if the torque and horse power follow the original torque and horse power graph or not. Ya know train tracking from the original.
it does follow under boost
for a daily I would take the more torque and if it was in a pickup that would make miles difference
Yup. more area under the curve on the less radical engine
I have a carbed L33 with very similar cam as the 511 hp build. Love it. I put it in my 240Z autocrosser and I appreciate the low end torque coming out of slow corners. I was a bit worried about the trunnions, so I upgraded to the bronze bushing style. Noticed that you said you were still running stock rockers out at 7500 rpm. At what point are those trunnion upgrades absolutely necessary, in your opinion?
I think about trunion upgrades as a requirement when you have lots of miles on the stock ones (like I do)
500 hp supercharged vs 500hp N/A would be a good competition
The supercharged would make way more torque.
@@johnwehunt4305 obviously, but by how much, and by cost?
If Th400 transbrake @5000, shift at 7800, loose converter-#2(btr)
If anything else-#1 (fast)
I deal in big hp 2.0 turbo and power from 4k up to 7800 is way more fun than a peak hp build.
Add a turbo to both and see what happens. That would be a monster!
Turbo is going to mirror the na curve with more equally everywhere.
Surprise I'm in the big fat torque curve camp except heads up drag racing booth look like big loss down low so maybe gears and converter
None of the 5.3 LS LGM Combinations have enough normal Aspirated torque to satisfy myself longterm.
I have been experiencing driving 500-550 ft/lbs normal Aspirated torque and up to 600 Hp Racing likewise.
Need 454 BBC and Pontiac 455 old school cubic inched here.
After No Name Nationals 2023 1/8 mile racing in my 454 Gen 6 1997 C2500 pickup 5000 lbs I showed all Torque is King and I can still drive and I am the Legendary Street Racer here !
I’d take the lower H/P more torque 😊
Absoposilutely the Red Hot combo...... with boost !
The 512HP version is so much better for almost any setup. Would definitely be the right combination for a full size 4WD truck.
Wanna see the Trinity Vs a carb and single plane.
The 5.3 Making 510 Hp with highest torque is the Winner To me.
The 542 Hp would work well in a Light C4 Corvette at 3200 lbs without driver seated .
The trinity setup really needs 8000+RPM to take advantage of the power. Otherwise the FAST intake setup would be a faster car.
In a daily driver I’ll take the lower hp more tq .
Dedicated race car with matching stall im taking the HP. Street/strip car im taking the lower hp more tq.
Very cool comparison. I gotta go with the higher torque. Quick question. Is it worth going with the 11/32 pushrods over the 5/16? Either 1 I buy will be hardened chrome moly. I'm building a LQ4, truck norris cam, 706 ported heads, I might turbo it. Still not sure going into a military humvee
you don't need 11/32 pushrods
@richardholdener1727 ok thank you. just for the knowledge, why don't I need them?
WE RAN 5/16THS PUSHORDS ON EVERY MOTOR I EVER TESTED, INCLUDING 8000 RPM STUFF AND 1543-HP BOOSTED STUFF-I TESTED THICK WALL (.105) PUSHRODS AGAINST .080 WALL AND IT SHOWED NOTHING.
@richardholdener1727 good point. I figured that's what you used. Thanks again. I love your videos. Tons of info. 5/16 it is!
it depends on what I am putting the engine in. if it is going on my 2010 Tahoe, I want the one that makes more torque. if I am putting it in a BMW E36, I will take the one that makes more hp. it has to do with application of the engine. I would love to build one like the high torque one for my Tahoe.
wondering though, the TBSS manifold compared to the FAST 102, wouldn't the TBSS manifold make more torque?
Was the shorter runner bigger cam tuned all the way? If the peak torque was 420ft-lb or 425ft-lb instead of 404ft-lb it would have been more sufficient. The 404 ft-lb is a HUGE drop off, not many would like that.
Tuned all the way? That was the max torque available from the combo.
Area under the curve. I’ll take the 511hp version!
This has nothing to do with this video. But I would love to see you play around with the magnum 318 like you did with the 360
Waaaaahhhhhhhh!!!! 😎😎😎😎😎
More torque please!
Always great content! What's Richard choose?
he chose to bring you the choices!
That 541hp one would beat the 511 in a circuit race. Power is what wins races. And also with that flat power curve you could drive it easier to cars grip limits.
My 4.88 gear 5 speed Camaro kinda likes the bigger rpm combo…
I'd rather have all the torque😊
Fast hr intake would be better on the 542hp combo
show me the data
512 all day every day 🎉
The high rpm engine would work good with a 10 speed auto.
I pick the 511, torque for the win. I don't twist my 5.3 past 6500 anyhow.
Richard have you tested an ASA cam, more specifically the Howards ASA version?
I have not
In real life, torque is king.
Hi Richard, hoping you or someone else knowledgeable can give me some advice or feedback. I recently got a set of AFR heads for cheap and noticed some spots the cnc missed (extruding above the surface) in the combustion chamber, it is very minimal but I was going to sand them down and cc them to make sure they are all consistent. Is there anything I should worry about ? I wasn't sure if slightly altering the shape and surface finish would affect the flow that much. Should I replicate the same thing on the other side to get them with the same CC and polish them the same way or its negligible ? (maybe the size of a nickel or smaller below the intake valve on each chamber of 1 head)
just hit is with a cartridge roll of emery cloth and call it good-just eliminate a potential hot spot, you won't change the cc
i would take the more torque for me personally then put a gt45 on it,,,,,,,how much difference would the tbbs lose i wonder
512 HP 👍
I’m all about high rpm and steep gearing. Want torque get a Cummins
Richard, what kind of power could you make if you replaced the pistons with some Mahla pistons to raise the compression, and used a cam that worked with those pistons, some head work to a set of 243/799 heads and a good intake? what spec cam would you use?
Does this L33 have a lot of piston noise? I have an 05 with a L33 that has been making a lot of slap for about 80k miles. Has good oil pressure.
I’m building up an LQ4 right now with a Holley 750 double pumper and the truck Norris cam kit. Would a set of ported 799 heads be a good combo for my power plant? Any recommendations? I don’t plan on building the motor up much more than this.
ported heads will definitely help
How would the btr trinity and cam combo work if it was a stroker BE?
Rpm is the only way for me
You should build a 450-500 hp engine and then put full accessories. Mechanical water pump, alternator, power steering pump, AC pump and with and without fan. Real world conditions.😊
Just deduct 25hp from the engine dyno numbers to get the in vehicle crank hp number. But He did an accessory test awhile back.
WATCH THE ACCESSORY VIDEO
I have a crazy test for you courtesy of one pf my group chats
I want to see how the air volume between the air filter and the throttle body affects the power curve and throttle response of a motor, as well as the idle quality.
I think you fould do this by simply running a straight tube with a filter on the end, one of those ones that comes with the adapter rings for smaller tubing, and then use like a 1ft tube of each size tubing the filter can fit with the relevant adapter to the throttle body.
This may show absolutely zero result or it may blow our minds. We'll see.
I have run many tests with changing air intake diameter and length size on my Civic and on an LS and Mod Motor
@@richardholdener1727 I'll look again for the videos
they are not up-was long before You Tube
Can we get the red hot cam tested with the trinity?
That 2nd motor would be a turd in anything that isn't lightweight... Needs the cams turned back 4 degrees or so. It'd probably still be a turd.
What is a comparing budget intake compared to the Fast intake?
comparing budget intake?
Reminds me of someone i worked with that argued the 350 hp 8.1 vortec could do as much work as a 350 hp, 10 liter Cummins that makes 600 more lbs/ft of torque. 😂
Well it can... hp id a messure of work over time.
One motor will just be reving its tits off to do it. And probably not last and use more fuel
why not #1 with the #2 cam? AND tune on E85 ;)
Not sure E85 helps this combo
Were the push rods stock length or shorter since the heads were milled?
TFS heads require a longer pushrod-but were milled and we ended up using the same 7.425
I am looking to swap my NA Series I 3800 to a SC Series II from a Riviera, do you know if there will be any major complications?
wiring harness and ecu and sensors
@@richardholdener1727 And how would I go about solving those problems
I don't do swaps, just dyno testing
I would rather have the 542 since I'd take it out to something stupid like 8500 rpm
Bottom line is we need VTEC LSs!!! LOL
so much yes
What was the compression
stock flat top and 220 head milled .030
I'll take the cam only l92 that made 567.
What is SBE?
Stock Bottom End
511 version
More torque
512hp alllll day. That's alot of hp loss across the board for a little extra gain up top. Not a good trade off in my eyes. For a street car, you'll feel that higher torque in the lower rpms running stop light to stop light.
512 all day long.
I'd take the 512 hp for the street
512
im nt really impressed by ls engines become stagnant and boring blah no torque 400 lbft? a smog 350 came close why is ls being pushed so hard when theres so many other engines? ls is just a 3800 with 2 cylinders added anyway, but on that point reliable theres no question 3800s live 500k.
no smog 350 ever came close to 400lb-ft
First
Can't do this channel anymore. Almost everything is chev. It's boring as, need more ford stuff Best of luck.
if only there was a playlist (or several in fact) with 100s of Ford vids you could watch!
@richardholdener1727 No need for that kind of remark. I wasn't an arsehole about it. I don't get the notifications about your other content, just the chev stuff.
Sorry sir, but your comment was indeed chalk full of attitude. It was also based on inaccurate information. I simply provided the accurate information about the availability of numerous Ford (and other) videos. Enjoy
@richardholdener1727 far from any attitude at all. I was honest with my exposure to what I received, and I even said best of luck. I thought that was quite polite. If I wanted to give you attitude, mate, i'd have said something quite different and condensending, which i didn't.
There is an important lesson here that I have tried to teach my boys. Making a mistake demonstrates humanity, admitting the mistake demonstrates character. Thnx for all the comments-this will make an excellent topic of discussion for a live feed. I get the best ideas from viewers.
My 4.88 gear 5 speed Camaro kinda likes the bigger rpm combo…