Very helpful video topic, thank you! There is an inherent problem with all the knowledge skills: the DM will mostly only convey trivia when they are used since all the information important for the story need to be conveyed regardless of a skill role as it drives the story. A pity, but that's the reality.
I was waiting for you to mention using arcana to make spell scrolls! Even if you've dumped intelligence arcana is useful for that alone. The great thing about scrolls is that, by my interpretation of RAW, you can use them to cast spells without verbal, somatic or material components. All you have to do is read it so as long as you have access to the scroll and can see you can cast the spell even if you're inside the area of effect of the silence spell or are otherwise unable to talk. It's also useful if your character uses the prepared spell mechanic since some spells are situationally useful but don't come up often enough to always have prepared. Stick it on a spell scroll when you have some downtime and you'll always have it in your back pocket.
This is a very thoughtful and accurate list based on my experience. I would argue that acrobatics can be as useful as athletics at the tables I've played at, but I think you're correct that athletics probably comes up in the rules more. Also, I like your sweater.
A lot of players will bitch and moan and whine if they've invested into dex and acrobatics and the DM won't let them use that to do something that should be an athletics check.
I think you severely underrated history and nature. Depending on campaigns and settings history and nature might come up all the time. I'm currently playing campaign set in ancient Greece and history comes up a lot. Any story set in forests, jungles or underground caves might call for a bunch of nature checks, additional any campaign focused on survival may benefit greatly from nature's knowledge on edible plants and alike.
Even though Intimidation is ranked lower than Persuasion, I think you can always start off nice and if it fails, it fails. But then, you may have to change your tactics to become more intimidating, in which case, you really don't want to fail. Think Gandalf who starts out nice and friendly, but then he can switch into an intimidating figure.
What a great tier list video! While my personal experience has been different with a few of of your rankings, I appreciate the logic and rules based approach you used. I think this is a great video to help new players or dms to save as a resource.
I agree with pretty much all of these, but I would say that some of the charisma skills are better in bunches - it often feels more effective and more likely to align the DM to your goals if you talk freely and then they just decide if you're persuading, intimidating or deceiving. Persuasion is definitely the most common. I've found that you can also make most skills somewhat relevant if you actively push for those skills through your RP. If you play your character as someone that is constantly interested and kind to animals, for instance, the DM is much more likely to give you an opportunity to use that skill. Even in westmarches/one shot settings. That doesn't make them better than those skills, but there is something to be said about DM willingness to allow a "niche" check at times that might feel a little "too much" to be asking for yet another perception check.
If the illusion spell in question is automatically checked against when cast, or the players are in a situation where they’re not under a time constraint (initiative or some other timer), then using passive investigation makes sense. But as someone who often uses silent image and some other illusion spells on builds that want ways to generate false cover or obscure enemy sight, part of what makes the spells actually usable even if you have a low DC, is that the enemy takes an action to see through it. In terms of action economy even if the enemy sees through first try it’s net neutral for you since you both just spent a turn. And if you’re only fighting one enemy as a group, you might actually want them to try and succeed at seeing though it. It used up like 1/4 I’d your parties actions to set up and took 1/1 of the enemy’s actions to see through it. So using passive investigation for spells like these would be a massive downgrade to them.
Howdy. I understand the fun in ranking skills but how they rank really depends how much role-playing takes place in the game, and player/ DM’s thinking outside the box. I think Performance is really underrated. My character is publishing written works to increase his fame then weave some magic into some works to be able to locate people who read it with the Dream spell. Or, you could mass influence a room in high society or attract members to your cult. : ) Make your captors laugh and distract them to escape or get advantage to other CHA rolls. With DM cooperation, Animal Handling could allow an assassin to set up a network of pigeons for long distance communications and have a raven as a non-magical familiar. Just some thoughts.
I'm surprised your parties almost never mount up. Buying a 75GP riding horse is probably be the most effective use of gold after armor & spell components. A horse gets you 60 feet of movement that doesn't use up your action or own movement. As an optimizer I would expect you to lead the way in this regard, especially if there is no Phantom Steed wizard in your party. Honestly I think the Animal Handling should be in C tier. Beside dealing with mounts, it can be paired with Speak with Animals you can often get a lot of information out of beasts. You can also try taming birds & other animals to get some pseudo-familiars. Try it out next time you play a Druid. I recommend to pick the urchin background to start out with a pet mouse.
I somewhat question how often athletics are actually used in combat. Monsters often have disgustingly powerful single actions to make up for them having less action economy than a whole party, so it’s rare they’ll ever take an action to shove or grapple, and many of the monster abilities or effects which can “grapple” you actually call for a strength or dex based save to escape not an athletics check. Being able to use acrobatics to escape grapple checks also brings athletics down a bit in my opinion, really making athletics feel more like something you could build around, which would be B tier based in the descriptions. That being said, even if I don’t actually think I use it in most sessions (on characters who aren’t specifically built to do so), I do think Athletics is a significant degree more used than the B tier skills so my money would be putting it in A. Although maybe I’m just biased since I often find S tiers to be overused for tier lists in general, so I might just have disproportionately high standards for it compared to most people.
Even though history and religion are “rarely invoked unless the DM wants to give backstory”, I often find that history specifically is somewhat commonly (at least in groups I’ve played with) used as a “general world knowledge” check. I do personally think that a straight intelligence check might fit better, but in my experience I’d a dm is going to use a skill for that situation, they often pick history. I don’t know id thag mives ir out of D tier but I think in practice it’s at least above Religion. I’d actually say I’ve seen or used history checks more than investigation checks in many of my games. Although that’s likely more a comment on how infrequently I personally investigate things with the skill.
literally making a character after a TPK, not fully seen the video but i reccomend athlethics or acrobatics cause jeez my last one didnt have either and let me tell you it was hard lol.
I think you could make an argument for Nature being B class since that’s the tier of “You can build around this.” Harvesting poisons can be situational at times, but there are familiar and animal companion options which can be regularly used to harvest poisons, allowing you to make a build more focused on it. The only reason I think this might not qualify it for B tier is because you don’t need nature proficiency to be proficient with the check, you can also use proficiency with poisoners kit instead so there’s some diminishing returns to having both, and if you’re building a character around poisons then the kit probably is your first choice of those two. That being said, I do think nature is the option that has the most other options besides harvesting poison, so if you’re not going to make a character based around poisons but are going to have a familiar or animal companion with them, then I think nature is a great choice to have.
Critical Role made passive insight more known it is actually the Observant feat that pushed this. Unfortunately, I have found that most DMs ignore passive abilities. I have frequently had situations where a player has a passive insight of 20 and the DM calls for an insight roll from a party member who rolls a success at 16 and when the passive 20 asks if they saw ith same tell the answer is no because " the book/module says on a successful roll." I have even had similar with my Observant character an active 14 sees the creature but the passive 29 that requires a feat, expertise and heavy WIS investment didn't? When asked why the DM said, "The module calls for an active roll." I then asked if passives were useless at the table, he said yes. There was a fun conversation after session since this was an AL game and he essentially shut down half of the character and roughly a sixth of overall AL builds. There is almost always a character with a passive perception of 22+ at an AL table. Edit: I guess I confused Insight and Investigation. I also forgot that passive abilities are a thing technically for everyone but Rogues get a mechanic that lets them use it even on a called roll.
Pretty good rating I'd say. I'm playing a druid/rogue with a super high perception (he also has sentinel shield which gives him advantage plus he has the Observant Feat), very high stealth (with Pass without trace, he has a minimum of a 23 stealth roll), and athletics...your S tiers and it's really cool.
I don't agree with persuasion. It's either A or D depending on the DM. You can RP without making said check very often. I would put Insight above it at a constant A. You'll invoke it by asking if they're lying, you have control of it. Knowing if someone or something is lying is important or knowing if something is off. Knowing if someone is hostile to you is more valuable than already succeeding at a neutral or friendly interaction. You only do checks when it's required as a DM, not when you're already making a deal that already benefits both of you. You insight to see if they're lying about things like that and you're good to go. Passive insight is a thing in 4th edition and it's very valuable. I wouldn't take into account scrolls for Arcana, the rules for scroll crafting past 3rd level fall off and DMs don't typically hand them out let alone sell them. Perception often is used instead of investigation sadly.
I would have rated medicine higher because it technically has combat uses but yure completely right you can just use a healerskit instead so I guess Iagree, its a pretty bad skill overall
Very helpful video topic, thank you!
There is an inherent problem with all the knowledge skills: the DM will mostly only convey trivia when they are used since all the information important for the story need to be conveyed regardless of a skill role as it drives the story. A pity, but that's the reality.
I was waiting for you to mention using arcana to make spell scrolls! Even if you've dumped intelligence arcana is useful for that alone. The great thing about scrolls is that, by my interpretation of RAW, you can use them to cast spells without verbal, somatic or material components. All you have to do is read it so as long as you have access to the scroll and can see you can cast the spell even if you're inside the area of effect of the silence spell or are otherwise unable to talk.
It's also useful if your character uses the prepared spell mechanic since some spells are situationally useful but don't come up often enough to always have prepared. Stick it on a spell scroll when you have some downtime and you'll always have it in your back pocket.
This is a very thoughtful and accurate list based on my experience. I would argue that acrobatics can be as useful as athletics at the tables I've played at, but I think you're correct that athletics probably comes up in the rules more. Also, I like your sweater.
A lot of players will bitch and moan and whine if they've invested into dex and acrobatics and the DM won't let them use that to do something that should be an athletics check.
Survival is either A or D. My DM used it a lot in Tomb and Rime.
I think you severely underrated history and nature. Depending on campaigns and settings history and nature might come up all the time. I'm currently playing campaign set in ancient Greece and history comes up a lot. Any story set in forests, jungles or underground caves might call for a bunch of nature checks, additional any campaign focused on survival may benefit greatly from nature's knowledge on edible plants and alike.
Before even seeing the video, I'm super excited for this subject
Now I've just got to make a character with the top 6 skills. Interesting...
Great video and it's got my brain juices flowing for a new build. Thanks!
My tables have used animal handling way more than nature for sure. Coming across, and dealing with a beast.
Good list. I think perc/stealth probably should be the only S tier. Athletics top of A.
Even though Intimidation is ranked lower than Persuasion, I think you can always start off nice and if it fails, it fails. But then, you may have to change your tactics to become more intimidating, in which case, you really don't want to fail. Think Gandalf who starts out nice and friendly, but then he can switch into an intimidating figure.
What a great tier list video! While my personal experience has been different with a few of of your rankings, I appreciate the logic and rules based approach you used.
I think this is a great video to help new players or dms to save as a resource.
I agree with pretty much all of these, but I would say that some of the charisma skills are better in bunches - it often feels more effective and more likely to align the DM to your goals if you talk freely and then they just decide if you're persuading, intimidating or deceiving. Persuasion is definitely the most common.
I've found that you can also make most skills somewhat relevant if you actively push for those skills through your RP. If you play your character as someone that is constantly interested and kind to animals, for instance, the DM is much more likely to give you an opportunity to use that skill. Even in westmarches/one shot settings. That doesn't make them better than those skills, but there is something to be said about DM willingness to allow a "niche" check at times that might feel a little "too much" to be asking for yet another perception check.
The tier-list should depend on your particular DM imo.
If the illusion spell in question is automatically checked against when cast, or the players are in a situation where they’re not under a time constraint (initiative or some other timer), then using passive investigation makes sense.
But as someone who often uses silent image and some other illusion spells on builds that want ways to generate false cover or obscure enemy sight, part of what makes the spells actually usable even if you have a low DC, is that the enemy takes an action to see through it. In terms of action economy even if the enemy sees through first try it’s net neutral for you since you both just spent a turn. And if you’re only fighting one enemy as a group, you might actually want them to try and succeed at seeing though it. It used up like 1/4 I’d your parties actions to set up and took 1/1 of the enemy’s actions to see through it.
So using passive investigation for spells like these would be a massive downgrade to them.
Howdy. I understand the fun in ranking skills but how they rank really depends how much role-playing takes place in the game, and player/ DM’s thinking outside the box. I think Performance is really underrated. My character is publishing written works to increase his fame then weave some magic into some works to be able to locate people who read it with the Dream spell. Or, you could mass influence a room in high society or attract members to your cult. : ) Make your captors laugh and distract them to escape or get advantage to other CHA rolls. With DM cooperation, Animal Handling could allow an assassin to set up a network of pigeons for long distance communications and have a raven as a non-magical familiar. Just some thoughts.
Another great video! Keep them coming!
I'm surprised your parties almost never mount up. Buying a 75GP riding horse is probably be the most effective use of gold after armor & spell components. A horse gets you 60 feet of movement that doesn't use up your action or own movement. As an optimizer I would expect you to lead the way in this regard, especially if there is no Phantom Steed wizard in your party.
Honestly I think the Animal Handling should be in C tier. Beside dealing with mounts, it can be paired with Speak with Animals you can often get a lot of information out of beasts. You can also try taming birds & other animals to get some pseudo-familiars. Try it out next time you play a Druid. I recommend to pick the urchin background to start out with a pet mouse.
I somewhat question how often athletics are actually used in combat. Monsters often have disgustingly powerful single actions to make up for them having less action economy than a whole party, so it’s rare they’ll ever take an action to shove or grapple, and many of the monster abilities or effects which can “grapple” you actually call for a strength or dex based save to escape not an athletics check.
Being able to use acrobatics to escape grapple checks also brings athletics down a bit in my opinion, really making athletics feel more like something you could build around, which would be B tier based in the descriptions.
That being said, even if I don’t actually think I use it in most sessions (on characters who aren’t specifically built to do so), I do think Athletics is a significant degree more used than the B tier skills so my money would be putting it in A.
Although maybe I’m just biased since I often find S tiers to be overused for tier lists in general, so I might just have disproportionately high standards for it compared to most people.
Even though history and religion are “rarely invoked unless the DM wants to give backstory”, I often find that history specifically is somewhat commonly (at least in groups I’ve played with) used as a “general world knowledge” check. I do personally think that a straight intelligence check might fit better, but in my experience I’d a dm is going to use a skill for that situation, they often pick history.
I don’t know id thag mives ir out of D tier but I think in practice it’s at least above Religion. I’d actually say I’ve seen or used history checks more than investigation checks in many of my games. Although that’s likely more a comment on how infrequently I personally investigate things with the skill.
literally making a character after a TPK, not fully seen the video but i reccomend athlethics or acrobatics cause jeez my last one didnt have either and let me tell you it was hard lol.
I think you could make an argument for Nature being B class since that’s the tier of “You can build around this.”
Harvesting poisons can be situational at times, but there are familiar and animal companion options which can be regularly used to harvest poisons, allowing you to make a build more focused on it.
The only reason I think this might not qualify it for B tier is because you don’t need nature proficiency to be proficient with the check, you can also use proficiency with poisoners kit instead so there’s some diminishing returns to having both, and if you’re building a character around poisons then the kit probably is your first choice of those two.
That being said, I do think nature is the option that has the most other options besides harvesting poison, so if you’re not going to make a character based around poisons but are going to have a familiar or animal companion with them, then I think nature is a great choice to have.
imo there's a top 3/4 then there's everything else: it's perception, stealth and athletics/acrobatics.
Critical Role made passive insight more known it is actually the Observant feat that pushed this. Unfortunately, I have found that most DMs ignore passive abilities. I have frequently had situations where a player has a passive insight of 20 and the DM calls for an insight roll from a party member who rolls a success at 16 and when the passive 20 asks if they saw ith same tell the answer is no because " the book/module says on a successful roll."
I have even had similar with my Observant character an active 14 sees the creature but the passive 29 that requires a feat, expertise and heavy WIS investment didn't? When asked why the DM said, "The module calls for an active roll." I then asked if passives were useless at the table, he said yes. There was a fun conversation after session since this was an AL game and he essentially shut down half of the character and roughly a sixth of overall AL builds. There is almost always a character with a passive perception of 22+ at an AL table.
Edit: I guess I confused Insight and Investigation. I also forgot that passive abilities are a thing technically for everyone but Rogues get a mechanic that lets them use it even on a called roll.
Pretty good rating I'd say. I'm playing a druid/rogue with a super high perception (he also has sentinel shield which gives him advantage plus he has the Observant Feat), very high stealth (with Pass without trace, he has a minimum of a 23 stealth roll), and athletics...your S tiers and it's really cool.
What is the name of westmarsh server you play on?
I play on a couple different ones, but my main ones are The Forged Concordance and New Dawn Coalition... feel free to check them out!
@@Bilbrons-and-Dragons thanks man
I don't agree with persuasion. It's either A or D depending on the DM. You can RP without making said check very often. I would put Insight above it at a constant A. You'll invoke it by asking if they're lying, you have control of it. Knowing if someone or something is lying is important or knowing if something is off. Knowing if someone is hostile to you is more valuable than already succeeding at a neutral or friendly interaction. You only do checks when it's required as a DM, not when you're already making a deal that already benefits both of you. You insight to see if they're lying about things like that and you're good to go.
Passive insight is a thing in 4th edition and it's very valuable.
I wouldn't take into account scrolls for Arcana, the rules for scroll crafting past 3rd level fall off and DMs don't typically hand them out let alone sell them. Perception often is used instead of investigation sadly.
I would have rated medicine higher because it technically has combat uses but yure completely right you can just use a healerskit instead so I guess Iagree, its a pretty bad skill overall
Good job!!! Increase your engagement easily --> Promo-SM!!!