I’m pretty sure every scene of goku getting harmed by glass, a bullet, or rock was for dramatic effect, or he’s off gaurd, or he’s rusty, why people take those as evidence for power scaling I’ll never know.
@@UltimateBallaPOM how ? When every fictional character has this ? I would use the consistent scale of information not just the plot. Of a bullet , laser or glass. You have to pick and choose what’s truly applicable.
Yeah that's probably right. But why aren't you mentioning the larger feats though? I'd argue stuff like Broly destroying an entire galaxy, Goku shaking the very fabric of the cosmos, or him in his base form being stronger than Buu was all done for dramatic effect.
@@GhostCyro very true SSJ4 is a completely different look which I do like. It’s just a shame I hate GT the story just sucks imo but I can’t hate on the transformations.
I know what he meant mean by "Shenlong's place" was perhaps some immaterial realm beyond our comprehension, but I liked to think it's just Goku moving into Shenlong's house to crash on his couch.
(Super) Goku: unable to transform just to Super Saiyan 1 after fighting 46 mins in the T.O.P (GT) Goku: Fighting for 24 hours or more still *Easily* managing to go Super Saiyan 4 Clear difference of Ki Utilization
Thank you for making this. If the writers were as serious as you, there would be no inconsistencies. I don't think the writers ever considered SSj 50x Base after the Namek Saga. The issue is Piccolo's base sort of kept up with SSj1 Goku and Vegeta after training and then surpassed them after absorbing Kami. If piccolo was even half as strong as SSj Goku/Vegeta during the Android fight, then that would mean Vegeta's base is 25x weaker than Piccolo's base. Krillin, Yamcha, Gohan, Tien were not that much weaker than Piccolo either, such as the time Tien held off Semi Perfect Cell, or everyone attacking Perfect Cell, or in later arcs where Yamcha fought Olibu and easily won, or Super Kaioken, that should be 5 to 20 times stronger than SSj, and you might say that is non canon, but if that is non canon, everything different from the manga is as well and Kid Buu would not be the strongest. Obviously Super doesn't use the Multipliers, I mean Krillin, after barely training, fights all forms of Goku and lives. Android 17 also came out of nowhere. Base Goku Black was stronger than SSj Goku like the SSj forms were pointless. The writers backpedaled since the beginning - In BoG Movie Goku SSjG made Beerus use 7% of his power - by becoming 50x that in the next movie, that's already several times stronger than Beerus, even ignoring the training. Base Goku ratio's to SSj1, 3, and 4 is like 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 or something similar. Toriyama forgot SSj2 and Launch existed, and yes he didn't write this, but clearly they also forget stuff. I don't think you can apply SSj4 as 10x SSj3, which is somehow 4x SSj2, which is 2x SSj1...so from 50x, to 100x to 400x to 4000x. Base Goku is the one that defeated Super 17, who just beat SSj4 Goku. Base Goku is also the one that defeated Omega Shenron, yes he had an enlarged energy ball, but the same type of ball was held back by Kid Buu and Frieza survived from a weaker one too. Then again, in Super, a sword with a few dozen humans powering it was enough to defeat Merged Zamasu, but at the same time a bigger ball can't scratch Jiren. There's so many flaws with Dragonball, even SSj4 Gogeta's hair being red is questionable, or how SSjB Vegito's hour lasting 5 minutes compared to SSj4 Gogeta's 30 lasting 10-15. I don't consider Vegito stronger since it was really Goku and Trunks the only ones to damage and kill Zamasu, but it shows how sloppy the writers prove to be, time and time again.
@The Black Reaper The worst is Heroes, but Super isn't far behind. In fact, it is just as bad in many ways, but actually wastes more of your time, so maybe...Super IS the worst! It just goes to show that after GT, Dragonball lost a lot of it's care. I am not saying Z was perfect, but the amount of cheese happening (like Tien holding back Semi-Perfect Cell) could probably be counted on one hand, compared to: nearly every episode, every other fight scene (exceptions are the very few episode with detailed fight scenes, but those could ironically be counted on one hand, ironically), and GT definitely had a weak start, but came out swinging. I'd rather see Omega Shenron vs SSj4 Gogeta than ToP. My favorite episode in Super was the baseball episode. Most of the other episodes didn't impress me because not only were the fights usually uninspired, the story usually was too, or in the case with Goku Black Arc, just inconceivably fumbled.
Dragon ball Gt was already my favorite but after this video I love it even more. Thanks for the great video @Saiyan Scholar !!!🤩 Oh and you got yourself a new subscriber😁.
NOTHING can touch that ending in G.T. it will ALWAYS be the REAL and BEST ending regardless of what happens. It's how the entire series as a whole ends just it was originally intended to The actual episode "Generations" ends with a montage of earlier dragon ball episodes from the very beginning to the end you will get emotional watching it as a fan I garentee it..
I love how we(the gt fans) can Actually say that GOKU DOES solo most characters (change state that is) cus boundless and stuff yk THANK YOU FOR THE SERIES!
Super saiyan 4 is what Super saiyan God should have been. Lore wise it totally makes sense. Art style wise it makes sense. Everything about it makes sense. Plus it's so much better than me go red me go blue oh and me go white/silver see guys I get stronger...... God this was such a big missed opportunity
@@Snappybiscuits The first super saiyan god was part of a saiyan rebellion, good saiyans vs evil saiyans. The evil saiyans were in there great ape forms while the good ones were not, then 5 saiyans with righteous hearts lent their energy to a 6th saiyan creating a completely new form, the ssg. A form powerful enough to wipe out the great apes. Why would the form of a pure hearted saiyan used to defeat great apes be a “great ape”? The great ape is more of a saiyan curse where as the super saiyan forms are supposed to represent the true power a saiyan can achieve, separate from the ape counter part of a saiyan.
@@untitled-youtube-channel well you make an excellent point. I'm thinking that ss4 is the pure version of the great ape form. As in the great ape is the destructive power of the saiyans while ss4 is the protective power. Both powers can be accessed but they only knew about great ape and its destructive nature and created a counter balance to that. Plus this is more of a personal nitpick but saiyans are an alien race not humans so when all they do is change hair color outside of ss3 I have a problem because it's just lazy that's why the art style of ss4 is more akin to the saiyans.
@@untitled-youtube-channel ssj 4 is control over curse(great ape)to help the beloved ones in danger so it kinda reminiscent of ssg in the way And this could be alternative universe changes I guess so..
I believe the power at the end where Goku used the universal spirit bomb, came from the spirit bomb. Given the fact I don't recall him gathering the power of the universe before. Hence he was untouchable while he was holding the spirit bomb.
I've seen some say that according to power levels you only need to be 20% above an opponent to completely overwhelm them Always love seeing the original subs and feats mentioned
It's more so counter arguments to Saiyan scholar head canon arguments and clear lack of understanding of power scaling. I'm only 8:17 minutes in and I've already ran into 3 mistakes. 1. Logical fallacy for scaling kid buu 2. Completely ignoring crucial information for scaling uub from end of Z 3. He already assumes someone that is Y× Universal+ is Multiversal... Which isn't how that works... Just think critically of these arguments and do your own research and you'll find that these arguments are fundamentally flawed. I don't want people to think I'm hating on GT or something, or even hating on Saiyan Scholar (As he's allowed to have an opinion) just because he has an opinion. He's just basing his whole argument of multiple false premises, which can lead you to answers far beyound the actual truth of the matter. I.E, Seth the programmer made an argument and video that suggests mastered super saiyan can be a 500× multiplier instead of the regular 50× multiplier we know. He made arguments, That people echoed, that the U6 fighters (Frost and Cabba) were as strong as base Vegeta who is already as strong as Ssg Goku from BOG. When you would debunk the argument showing the ssj1 Vegeta was stronger than Ssj1 Cabba (More arguments than just that) they would fall back onto the 500× vs 50× multiplier argument. However this was under the false premise that Master Ssj1 was any stronger than Ssj1 grade 1; When in fact, it wasn't.
More than underrating him, is just that people don’t take it serious because is just ridiculous. If I’m not mistaken at some point in GT they just out of nowhere say Goku as a kid is far weaker than normal Goku but at the same time his kid base form is now stronger than SSJ 3 in Z which was already 400 times stronger than his base form. So his new SSJ 3 is basically more than 160000 times stronger than his last base form in Z. Or in other words 400+ times stronger than his previous SSJ 3. And that’s without SSJ 4 which gives him his adult body again. So the power scale just gets out of hand while having pretty mid villains and disrespecting the classic ones. I would say that’s the real issue
Real quick for me, “boundless galaxy’s” meant each of the galaxies (four north, south, east and west) are each infinitely boundless themselves. It’s why I prefer the term quadrants to galaxy’s for the story. If you divide an infinite something up into four sections at the very least one must be infinite and it’s probable all four to be given the directional differentiation.
could also say they were quadrant galaxies of the universe, not quadrants of galaxies. Also the directional differentation would make sense as they're all named after cardinal directions
I have a theory on how GT Goku might be able to grow in power so fast though it's probably not the case. Perhaps the wish that made him a child again increased his potential for growth to beyond what it was originally as the black star Dragonballs are much more powerful than the normal ones. Perhaps the extra power allows the dragon from granting more than just the requested wish and additionally granted Goku's desire to get even stronger.
I wrote a comment on it for those who might understand, but if you break it down, the dragon can only grant wishes that don't exceed it's own power. Those are namekian. Meaning he could probably only do so much, plus the wish wasn't specific, so you are not incorrect either.
I don’t like comparing GT and Super characters solely because how each continuities are shown and done. There’s a whole another level then just the Kais with super, hell there can probably be beings even higher than Zeno! The two series are vastly different and that’s a good thing, but I wouldn’t really say GT Goku is stronger than Whis or Beerus because like I said, how vastly different the two series are (and it wouldn’t really make sense if you really do think about it). Though I’m not gonna start the Super Goku Vs GT Goku debate because that’s a whole other topic, a topic that has so many things wrong and mixed up on both sides. I hope to who ever reads this has a great day
@@legendarywolverine5529 yeah his name is Toyatoro and his Pen name was Toyable, he made the DragonBall af fan comic with SSj5 Goku. That's how he got the white hair of Ultra instinct, the lamest form ever imo. I agree movies did it as well. Like the resurrection of bad guys like Freeza. The tournament of power happened in another fan comic and was done 1000 times better, before super even came out. Super turned Freeza and Broly both into lame Jokes. We could both probably go on about each instance haha. But since he made fan comics, I'm sure he read many of the others.
@@Under-Kaoz You mean Dragon Ball Multiverse, right? I've read that before, but stopped when I lost interest and it hadn't updated in a while. This was years ago. Though, I have to agree it was done better there - even if it felt like they used multiple timelines instead of universes to me when I first read it - but both have things about them I didn't like. Dyspo, Jiren, the universe love warriors, etc for ToP. Multiverse was just these weak people in the fight thinking they could do something, which was laughable and Android Yamcha. Just never liked that idea. But Multiverse's plot and backstories were way better too. You're right, we could but no real point to do so. He probably did. Lol.
To be honest the problem with pan is that she was utilized about as well as Sakura in Naruto. The character and everything to do with her could have been so much better, but they didn't use it right
I don’t think it’s the power of the dragon balls that made the shadow dragons stronger but rather the selflessness of the wish. The wishes that made all of the dragons are mirrored by the dragons. Omega was the most evil and strong due to being made from the most selfless wish.
All of these numbers and multipliers are unofficial, but very accurate, for GT power scaling. For Dragon Ball Super, you may want to use DBZ Kai since it's generally accepted that the Super anime is the sequel to that. But like you said, Kai is supposed to be more accurate to the original manga and it was even called the "Akira Toriyama original cut edition," so there will be inconsistencies between Kai and Super. Personally, I would use Kai while I would use the original Z anime for GT. I don't care if this makes Super stronger, but GT isn't out of multiversal range like people thought.
WOW, I actually watched/listened to this whole episode without pausing and coming back. So 2hrs and 40mins. I have to say to you SS , Way to Fucking Go!!!!! This is probably and most likely the absolute best description of dragon Ball power ups I have ever seen or ever heard!!!! Way to Fucking Go !!!!!!
I am about half way through your video and after you noticing how much mythology is wound in with GT I wonder if you have noticed all the tarot imagery in the shadow dragon arc mostly in the omega section.
I'm pretty sure Hurcles power was stated to be around 130ish-140 during the Tenkaichi tournament during Buu Saga because of the punching bag.. Trying to pull from my memory so I could be completely wrong and It's 112 sooo.....
As time goes by things change. Like remember how the Great Recession was a thing? Well that is practically ancient history to some. What is the now is Russia and Ukraine, that’s not including the filler of Covid, Trumps election, and other filler arcs.
Im stunned people still rely on power scaling in DB. It’s inconsistent and will never make sense. Goku being able to surpass his SSJ3 in base is a stretch for GT. In Super UI was supposed to be the pinnacle of power, skill of the Angels, yet Jiren still managed to hurt Goku in battle. Vados stated Jiren strength transcends time itself in the battle with Hit which makes no sense yet again. The real power scaling of a character is equal to what the writers need it to be in that particular moment.
Yup. There's always plot convenient power-ups here and there. But, it is fiction and it can't always make sense even though most of our brains are wired to think otherwise. In Dragon Ball, you can destroy infinity, fly, power pole to the moon, be the fastest man alive even when you're the bulkiest man alive too, etc.
This is one thing I liked about super. They never tried to discredit Buu, the real Buu. Even when they introduced future Trunks again they didn't try to tell us he beat Buu, instead they told us he beat Babadi and prevented Buu from being released. We all know Buu would have stomped Trunks.
Could wish granting be considered a high level martial art in dragonball? Maybe he went to learn from the dragons in their realm. Maybe he doesn't age in dragon realm like that other dimension he was at previously. Gathering the goku ball summons an ageless goku from dragon realm.
Same thing goes to ssj3 buu saga goku,buuhan and z vegito.those are the characters you should use when scaling GT and super since both scale off the buu saga.
tbf Kid Buu is the last arc boss for the Buu arc itself and scaling any other Buu would probably be complicated even if he wasn't the strongest. SSJ3 Goku wasn't mastered either so it took too much energy, Buuhan's strength can't be scaled properly, and Z Vegito pretty much solidified how fusions would be scaled for all of Dragon Ball.
I always assumed that the Kid Goku was significantly weaker than his adult self, and that proper scaling wouldn’t go into effect until he hit SS4, when his body fully matured again. Also, people can say what they want about GT, but the Dragon arc was amazing and SS4 is the coolest transformation.
Exactly! Kid goku was definitely weaker than his adult form Also SSJ4 is the best thing that happen to GT. If not for that it was kinda mid and the animation was kinda suspect at certain times. I love super. Far more consistent with power levels
Not that kid goku is weaker Its stated somewhere his child body isnt developed, it cant manage his ki properly, hence y he struggled In ssj4 he could use his ki normally
@@KKMM-7200 super story is just unnecessary and all just feels like filler honestly. The whole time I’m watching super could be summed up in three words: “Okay but why?”
Now that I think about it. We shouldn't really scale beerus and whis to GT Goku since we have yet to see beerus's true power. And Whis we barely even saw any of it. So we can't scale them.
@@sambeezy007 70% thing has been debunked by whis and just plain common sense . No way he was using 70% when he fought goku considering how much stronger goku and vegeta got since that day and even after all that when vegeta fought beerus in the manga he got stomped easily after vegeta started to get cocky.
@@Shaneo0oo I got you. But all in all, these transformations and techniques are getting out of hand. After the Moro arc I stopped keeping up consistently.
@@sambeezy007 …. I mean if you stopped keeping up after the moro arc which was the last arc before the current one you would’ve known Beerus lied about using 70% of his power. No does gt Goku scale towards Super Goku so if super Goku can’t win why would gt win ?
@@MadderEmo I guess I'm uninformed at this point. Shows how ridiculous the show has gotten. My first movie was Tree of Might and first episode was Teen Gohan going SS2. Ahh the good old days
Universal+ in my opinion means "The ability to destroy or get rid of a specific universe spacetime and laws" The definition you used in my opinion Is a galaxy+ "The ability to shake a spacetime continue or law in a specific galaxy or a dimension the size of galaxy"
Bro he's so opinionated instead of using his brain and saying: "Hm, ssj3 Goku stood no chance against Buuhan, but is going toe to toe with Kid Buu. Who is stronger?"
In Dragon Ball Legends story, the GT characters were shown to be stronger than people give them credit for: 1, GT Goku's Super Full Power Saiyan 4 was shown to be at least strong as Fused Zamasu' halo form in the 2nd anniversary story. 2, Shallot's Super Saiyan God form was shown to be at least strong as GT Goku's SS4 form when facing Nuova Shenron, but at the time Shallot's SSG form was almost strong as Post-ToP Goku's SSB form when the Saiyans fought Goku Black, who became stronger. 3, GT Goku, GT Vegeta, and Nuova all fought Corrupt Fused Zamasu, and they held their own for a bit in the 3rd anniversary story. Thanks to DBL, GT Goku's SS4 form is almost strong as Post-ToP Goku's SSB form, meaning DBS characters aren't that much stronger than the GT characters.
Dragon Ball Legends is the same story where Majin Vegeta is as strong as Caulifla and Kale stop using that. Omega Shenron could only destroy the Universe passively through spread of negative energy meanwhile God Goku enacted the feat directly with his fists. This is the power Super has over GT and before you say “GT Base Goku shook Hell” hell is literally one part of the universe as confirmed in Super.
I would say the only thing with Super 17 is that he was allowing himself to be wide open and vulnerable. I think the scene showed the actual 17 realizing what he was doing, fully forcing a wide open scenario for Goku to defeat him.
18 was firing Ki blasts, keeping 17 to stay in the energy absorption pose. Goku hid amongst the Ki blasts and hit 17 with the Dragon Fist, then finished him with a Kamehameha.
If I were to rewrite GT I would only change the duration of the battles and expand upon the dialogue to properly explain things. I would also tweak the enemies strength to make more sense for example I would make ledgic /muchi muchi and lord luud an omega shenrom level threat. These fights deserved to be way longer and this will definitely showcase Goku's power jump even better when he starts dominating enemies like s17 I'm ssj1. I'd probably have Vegeta be the one to discover super 17s absorbtion and also give Vegeta the win against him pre absorbtion.
This video makes crystal clear how broken GT is (even with lowballs included) and I love it. All the crazy numbers left me stunned. Thank you for using Buu as a reference point, it really helps. I generally don't look at powerlevels (they fluctuate like crazy anyways), only at performance differences between current characters and then compare them to characters who have shown us what they were capable of, so this vid and all the other power scale vids that I recently binged in this channel portray that perfectly. I think it is a good proof for people who still downplay the DB universe just because "they don't have mUlTiVeRsAl FeAtS". Like world building logic or narrative doesn't exist. I know sometimes powerscaling is all over the place, especially in DBS (thank you Golden Emperor Dripza, Tilted Trunks and most of all thank you "everyone and their mom goes god mode TOP preparation arc" ), but in the end, this is pure fiction and we analyse it to have fun and because we enjoy it. We are here for the adventure, the hype, the tears, the tension and the progression (in the form of scaling), all the badass moments that we share with our favorite characters who we grew up together with, not to earn a PhD in weebanomics. At least that's how I see it. Loved the vid. I hope for that superhuman attempt at DBS scaling some point down the line. Really interested to see your take on that.
bro the way I like to put the ssj 4 multiplier is whatever kind of power he needs to overcome his adversary and then a x 4 multiplier for the dragon fist... I feel like the changed state concept comes from the super sayajin of legend being stated to constantly grow stronger, so I think the primal instincts just let you power up monkey style up until your body can handle at least a x 2 ssj multiplier over your opponent, and that would leave all that SSJ5 crap on the side, SSJ4 UI is the shit anyways aka ultra slickstinct 😉😆
I like how this guy uses classifications from some random wiki and just expects everybody to know what he's talking about, much less treat it as some kind of agreed upon standard.
I hope you do a video like this for Super Hero. It seems like Piccolo might get a power boost. He's probably still gonna get washed by the big bad, but at this point, Piccolo fans have to take what we can get.
I have 3 questions...1)Is 100 years time skip (dragon god) change state goku stronger than Zalama? (The Omnipotent creator of the super dragon balls and zeno himself) 2)if the dragon realm is outside the universe then where is it? 3)is the dragon realm related to "Super Saiyan 5" that bulma stated at some point in GT?
Did you account for Goku's handicap being turned back into a kid? I'm pretty sure early on the show mentions Goku can fight at his true power because his kid body can't handle it. That's a better reason for pan and trunks to be anywhere near Goku in terms of power. I would say that that factor would possibly mean rethinking your numbers.
I am a firm believer that gt characters are galaxies stronger than super characters. So glad that this video exists to back that up. Fuck your god ki, the true saiyan power beats all!
@@teamonion9695 yes I did I sort of waste two hours in a good put together video of something I already know and I don't hate gt sure it's just as sloppy as super I love super Saiyan 4 and the idea of it but it's just not comparable in power-wise to super plus it's all the same shit wow in dbz DBS and gt some guy is just so powerful they can shake and break all of reality in an infinite space gt Goku UI Goku buu buuhan Jiren etc it’s all the same feats “wow that guy is so powerful he can blow up the earth and the universeeegeiebekdkdk” yeah heard form 3 different dragon series nothing new but hey that's my opinion y'all have yours
@@squidman2425 Yes, the show got formulaic once z really started to pick up, and I realize that. And I always preferred it when the show was more about martial arts, and just the overall vibe of that the original dragon ball and early z gave off. I definitely prefer those points of the show. But, I can still appreciate the later arcs. Especially cell. I love that saga, and I know I'm not the only one. It's when the buu saga comes in, that's when the show takes a decline. And although I still really appreciate that saga as a stand alone, it didn't do much in terms of living up to previous arcs. Now, on to get. And the first thing we're greeted with is: an arc that perfectly encapsulates the feeling of the first arc of dragon ball. I absolutely *ador* this part of gt. And unlike most, I feel like once I finish it l, most of my favorite moments will come from that portion of the show. And, because of this amazing arc, that's done perfectly, I find it hard not to love the rest of gt. And I really do believe that it would've been a really nice ending to dragon ball as a whole. ...And then we get this garbage, cash grab of a show "dragon ball super." But, don't even get me started on that. Anyway, I definitely see where you're coming from. I mostly just made this comment out of love for gt, and hate for super. I can definitely agree with your statements, I just really believe that super is trash. And gt is clearly the better show.
@@teamonion9695 I respect your opinion I like original DB a lot and the adventures goofiness martial arts etc DB is sort of underrated because when people think of Dragon ball they most likely think of Extreme testosterone and screaming for a whole episode but dragon ball used to be more simple than that it was just a monkey kid who wanted to collect the dragon balls with his new friend and ofc to get stronger
i disagree with rildo being as strong as angelic moro yes both did become the planet but it isn't only one way to perform crazy feats like that take time abilities for example guldo can stop time and hit can skip tru time and also stop it for those around him to isolate people he is hunting like the crime boss both can mess with time but one is way weaker then the other so the same applies here
Great work. But I believe personally that it is incorrect. His transformation into a child set him back considerably, which makes most things in the first half of the show at least 50% worse than what you've calculated. This also helps explain why Trunks appears to be on equal standing with Goku in Super Sayajin form in the beginning as well.
I believe that the statement Goku makes that his power "It's even greater than Buu's" is where the show officially confirms that they have now reached/exceeded the level that they were previously at in the Buu Saga. From that point onwards Goku no longer has a handicap while fighting in his child-body.
@@Redfnafzilla_YT Yes but Goku's training/fighting with Uub was during the first episode and before the wish was made that regressed Goku into a child.
@@waffleten9750 due to fact that dbs goku would already scale to universal,which would give him infinite speed,due to vegeta's quote of power equal speed Dbs goku bog arc would already have immesurable speed
@@godspeedforce9371 Still slower than Instant. Also dude why do you insist on keep lying about this stuff. Like you said Zamasu was going to destroy all the Universes when not only is it never shown but at best it was just the universe. You say Zeno blew up a timeline but again not only is it never stated by you see them go back to it.
IT all makes sense now, GT's insane power levers probably surpass that of the grand minister in DB Super, Flat out outrages. My # theory is at some point in time Goku made a wish with Shemron not a Bid for Power but rather for a symbiotic connection so he can use magical ONE-PUNCH, man! And with that ability there becomes the blue glow around him and suggests the multi definitional nature of the dragon traveling through the enemy so there becomes a residual stamina after the Dragon Fist.
This video explains (with math) how goku In dragon ball GT is statistically Underrated and stronger than dragon ball super Beeris\goku/wiss. 1:00:15 time stamp. I'm sorry but, I feel like with 1 sentence, Dragon Ball "GT makes no sense." you have made your argument mute. :(
It hasn't made it mute it only explains why characters get so strong so fast. While it is true its fucking dumb that Pan at any moment is stronger than Baby.
In certain technical terms he is right. It's always bothered me that Dragon Ball has such an inconsistent power/explosion/destructive capacity narrative. If they are as powerful as they should be the whole world would shake and explode. I feel like the argument is mute because it's too twisted up.
It just makes no sense for kid buu to be the strongest since goku didn't have a chance against buuhan and a little time later he is able to go almost toe to toe with kid buu. It would only make sense if kid buu was massively holding back, which is improbable that 'the ultimate evil' would hold back so much
@@wafflesmcgallagher934 CONSTANT statements from Goku as well as the narrator were stating that Kid Buu was the strongest opponent they went up against. On top of this, even Takao Koyama, Chief Writer of Z, has stated that Kid Buu is the strongest. Literally EVERYWHERE in Z it is stating that Kid Buu is stronger.
Pan didn't kick gotens ass 😅 there's no way goten is going to fight seriously with his cute little neice, he obviously let her win. Also, gotens 1st match was with fat Buu and goten beat him 💪
@@ssjgotenks2009 Ofcourse goten was hurt. Pan is strong. But, goten definitely let her win and took a beating. I would do the same for my neice or daughter and I'm sure you would too....especially if the whole world was watching. If vegeta fought pan, he will lose as well. His pride won't let him win agaisnt a 5 year old.
@@godspeedforce9371 I mean God made Goku go from Multi Solar System to Galaxy right? So like the bare minimum, God us like a 125 billion* but Ssj 4 by itself is stated as being as strong as Vegito maybe even Super Vegito. But Powerlevels stop being a thing after Frieza. So depending on how strong of a Powerlevel you think Vegito had is the multiplier of Ssj 4. So God bare minimum 125 billion* Ssj4 bare minimum Vegito*
@@waffleten9750 Goku went from solar system level to multiversal lowballed as he saved more than just the mortal universal,which vegito hasnt shown to be capable of doing Power levels became too high due to many strong characters Ssj4 is easily above vegito as ssj4 goku was able to fight ssj2 baby,who goku said to be stronger than vegito
I don't want to waste your time Saiyan Scholar, but could you tell me where the domination multipliers come from? They're a cool and fun concept that I myself use but I don't understand where they came from.
They are derived from differences in power during the Saiyan/Namek saga as well as combining Daizenshuu material about emitting twice the Ki to negate.
@@SaiyanScholar Alright, thanks. Some people thought 1.25x - 1.75x came out of nowhere and was headcanon with no proof, but now I know that's not true.
I would like to point out an issue: For your training boosts, you take the multiplier of the training and multiply it by time spent training, and assume that equals the multiplier of the increased time of training. That would work if the training was a linear increase(if a character increases their power level by 100 after training for one year, no matter how powerful they already were, then doing that form of training for ten years would increase their power level by 1000). However, the way training seems to work in dragon ball is that it is multiplicative (this can by explained by assuming that a more powerful character is capable of enduring more intense training, which provides a greater increase). So let's imagine that Goku were to undergo a training regiment that doubled his power after a year. How much stronger would he get after 10 years of training that way? Your method of calculating it would put the multiplier at 2X10, or 20 times stronger. However, I posit that the growth would look different: After 1 year, his power would have doubled. After the second, it would have doubled again, putting him at 4 times his original strength. After the third year it would double again, to 8 times. After that it would continue doubling every single year, going to 16, then 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, and finally 1024 times more powerful after 10 years of training. In other words, I claim that, rather multiplying the training multiplier by the amount of that form of training is done, you should instead start with the training multiplier and RAISE it to the power of however many times the training is performed. In the case of dragon god Goku, using the numbers you provided, he should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^1700 (that's a one with 1700 zeroes after it) times stronger than Kid Buu. For context, the number you gave for changed state dragon god goku using the dragon fist, 102 septenvigintillion is 1.02*10^83, which is incidentally roughly egual to the estimated number of particles in the universe, suggesting that even with your lower estimate, if there was a universe where every single particle was an identical copy of our universe, Goku could destroy all of them with a single dragon fist, as long as he is in his changed state, as you considered Kid Buu to be universal+. tl;dr: I believe you made a mistake at 2:24:16, leading you to place Goku at 1600 orders of magnitude less powerful than he should be. You also made a similar mistake at 7:50, leading you to claim that Goku was 10 times stronger than I believe he should be.
I see so if i understood that goku who trained for 10 years and got 400x stronger than he was 10 years ago, he should not be 200x stronger if he trained for 5 years , he should be much weaker. I agree on that ,that makes much more sense.
I'm gonna say, no joke, that the glass in GT was probably Serious Business. This is post Cell and Buu, two incidents where events happening in one place cause earthquakes on the other side of the planet. Someone, let's say Capsule Corp., probably started making new forms of glass (or transparent metals of some kind) just in case something like that happened again. Which it did.
Goal oriented training increases the potential for one’s training significantly in DB, so Goku did not get 200x stronger since he has no goal to work towards.
then in the 10 years he dindt need to train but fought uub who was as strong as kid buu he had no reason why did goku train the 7 years cell was defeated how about supers time skip to get stronger\
Bruh you're trying to fit yr narrative goku and uub likely had goals in 10 years so this could be case as to why gt goku has broken zenkai because he overstrain his body in 10 yr skip beyond his limit
no way you seriously think kid buu was stronger than buuhan. that makes absolutely no sense at all. why would goku and vegeta need to fuse into vegito if buuhan were weaker than kid buu? goku could have just gone ssj3 and beat him by himself. goku himself stated that he's no match for super buu, and that's without super buu having absorbed piccolo, gotenks, or gohan. kid buu < ssj3 goku < super buu < ultimate gohan < buuhan it doesn't matter what the screenwriter says, this is basic logic. it's especially pointless to rely on their statements when they contradict themselves left and right. just look at what happens in the source material and your viewpoint is untenable.
Man i dont even watch dragonball since middle school but I watch this dude's content religiously 😂😂😂
Good thing I’m 20 and in middle school
@@noobay your 20 in middle school damm 💀
@@fred5842 you're gonna be too with that grammar
@@shtreberka3642 Huh?!!
@@shtreberka3642 his grammar wasnt even bad though lmao
I’m pretty sure every scene of goku getting harmed by glass, a bullet, or rock was for dramatic effect, or he’s off gaurd, or he’s rusty, why people take those as evidence for power scaling I’ll never know.
Because a point has to be proven
You're picking and choosing what evidence not to consider.
@@UltimateBallaPOM how ? When every fictional character has this ? I would use the consistent scale of information not just the plot. Of a bullet , laser or glass. You have to pick and choose what’s truly applicable.
Yeah that's probably right. But why aren't you mentioning the larger feats though? I'd argue stuff like Broly destroying an entire galaxy, Goku shaking the very fabric of the cosmos, or him in his base form being stronger than Buu was all done for dramatic effect.
@@hunterkeps9058 or gogeta and broly literally hitting each other into another dimension lol
How can you not like SSJ4 man. It’s the pinnacle of badass
Not a fan of GT really but I have to agree he is badass.
@@rdotmitchellThats why I dont like super.God and blue are just simple color change.
@@GhostCyro very true SSJ4 is a completely different look which I do like. It’s just a shame I hate GT the story just sucks imo but I can’t hate on the transformations.
I know what he meant mean by "Shenlong's place" was perhaps some immaterial realm beyond our comprehension, but I liked to think it's just Goku moving into Shenlong's house to crash on his couch.
Again, Super Goku shook limbo.
Gt Goku destroyed limbo IN BASE
(Super) Goku: unable to transform just to Super Saiyan 1 after fighting 46 mins in the T.O.P
(GT) Goku: Fighting for 24 hours or more still *Easily* managing to go Super Saiyan 4
Clear difference of Ki Utilization
Ssj4 is the most ki efficient form
Paired with GTs goku training and knowledge over the years made the form insanely deadly
@@hbshadow8981 I agree
To be fair during the cell saga goku kept ssj for 9 and a half days.that was probably the longest goku stayed ssj.
MUI literally drained every fucking drop of ki in his body so Super Goku is more impressive
@@clouds570 impressive at killing the user maybe.
Thank you for making this. If the writers were as serious as you, there would be no inconsistencies. I don't think the writers ever considered SSj 50x Base after the Namek Saga. The issue is Piccolo's base sort of kept up with SSj1 Goku and Vegeta after training and then surpassed them after absorbing Kami. If piccolo was even half as strong as SSj Goku/Vegeta during the Android fight, then that would mean Vegeta's base is 25x weaker than Piccolo's base. Krillin, Yamcha, Gohan, Tien were not that much weaker than Piccolo either, such as the time Tien held off Semi Perfect Cell, or everyone attacking Perfect Cell, or in later arcs where Yamcha fought Olibu and easily won, or Super Kaioken, that should be 5 to 20 times stronger than SSj, and you might say that is non canon, but if that is non canon, everything different from the manga is as well and Kid Buu would not be the strongest.
Obviously Super doesn't use the Multipliers, I mean Krillin, after barely training, fights all forms of Goku and lives. Android 17 also came out of nowhere. Base Goku Black was stronger than SSj Goku like the SSj forms were pointless. The writers backpedaled since the beginning - In BoG Movie Goku SSjG made Beerus use 7% of his power - by becoming 50x that in the next movie, that's already several times stronger than Beerus, even ignoring the training.
Base Goku ratio's to SSj1, 3, and 4 is like 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 or something similar. Toriyama forgot SSj2 and Launch existed, and yes he didn't write this, but clearly they also forget stuff. I don't think you can apply SSj4 as 10x SSj3, which is somehow 4x SSj2, which is 2x SSj1...so from 50x, to 100x to 400x to 4000x. Base Goku is the one that defeated Super 17, who just beat SSj4 Goku. Base Goku is also the one that defeated Omega Shenron, yes he had an enlarged energy ball, but the same type of ball was held back by Kid Buu and Frieza survived from a weaker one too. Then again, in Super, a sword with a few dozen humans powering it was enough to defeat Merged Zamasu, but at the same time a bigger ball can't scratch Jiren. There's so many flaws with Dragonball, even SSj4 Gogeta's hair being red is questionable, or how SSjB Vegito's hour lasting 5 minutes compared to SSj4 Gogeta's 30 lasting 10-15. I don't consider Vegito stronger since it was really Goku and Trunks the only ones to damage and kill Zamasu, but it shows how sloppy the writers prove to be, time and time again.
@The Black Reaper The worst is Heroes, but Super isn't far behind. In fact, it is just as bad in many ways, but actually wastes more of your time, so maybe...Super IS the worst!
It just goes to show that after GT, Dragonball lost a lot of it's care. I am not saying Z was perfect, but the amount of cheese happening (like Tien holding back Semi-Perfect Cell) could probably be counted on one hand, compared to: nearly every episode, every other fight scene (exceptions are the very few episode with detailed fight scenes, but those could ironically be counted on one hand, ironically), and GT definitely had a weak start, but came out swinging. I'd rather see Omega Shenron vs SSj4 Gogeta than ToP.
My favorite episode in Super was the baseball episode. Most of the other episodes didn't impress me because not only were the fights usually uninspired, the story usually was too, or in the case with Goku Black Arc, just inconceivably fumbled.
The company don't care anymore, They just want big money, they'll make more fusion forms and shit.
Lol at you seriously trying to powescale. What a waste of time
Dragon ball Gt was already my favorite but after this video I love it even more. Thanks for the great video @Saiyan Scholar !!!🤩
Oh and you got yourself a new subscriber😁.
Thanks for your support Sir!
True
NOTHING can touch that ending in G.T. it will ALWAYS be the REAL and BEST ending regardless of what happens. It's how the entire series as a whole ends just it was originally intended to The actual episode "Generations" ends with a montage of earlier dragon ball episodes from the very beginning to the end you will get emotional watching it as a fan I garentee it..
It ties to the ascension theme found in Buddhism too.
I love how we(the gt fans) can Actually say that GOKU DOES solo most characters (change state that is) cus boundless and stuff yk
THANK YOU FOR THE SERIES!
What do you mean "Can solo most characters"?
Well he can't beat Spongebob or Mickey Mouse lol 😆
@@StevenJones851 Patrick solos spongebob and mickey B)
@@insertusername2603 yeah and Patrick can beat Goku
@@StevenJones851 Patrick solos fiction 😎
Super saiyan 4 is what Super saiyan God should have been. Lore wise it totally makes sense. Art style wise it makes sense. Everything about it makes sense. Plus it's so much better than me go red me go blue oh and me go white/silver see guys I get stronger...... God this was such a big missed opportunity
That doesn't make sense lore wise, or art style wise.
@@untitled-youtube-channel explain
@@Snappybiscuits The first super saiyan god was part of a saiyan rebellion, good saiyans vs evil saiyans. The evil saiyans were in there great ape forms while the good ones were not, then 5 saiyans with righteous hearts lent their energy to a 6th saiyan creating a completely new form, the ssg. A form powerful enough to wipe out the great apes. Why would the form of a pure hearted saiyan used to defeat great apes be a “great ape”? The great ape is more of a saiyan curse where as the super saiyan forms are supposed to represent the true power a saiyan can achieve, separate from the ape counter part of a saiyan.
@@untitled-youtube-channel well you make an excellent point. I'm thinking that ss4 is the pure version of the great ape form. As in the great ape is the destructive power of the saiyans while ss4 is the protective power. Both powers can be accessed but they only knew about great ape and its destructive nature and created a counter balance to that. Plus this is more of a personal nitpick but saiyans are an alien race not humans so when all they do is change hair color outside of ss3 I have a problem because it's just lazy that's why the art style of ss4 is more akin to the saiyans.
@@untitled-youtube-channel ssj 4 is control over curse(great ape)to help the beloved ones in danger so it kinda reminiscent of ssg in the way
And this could be alternative universe changes I guess so..
This guy has been persistently responding to comments for around a month now, he's a real one for standing his ground 👍
I always check back here and there. I get a lot who disagree without actually watching the video lol.
astounding video Saiyan Scholar. I crushed the thumbs up on your video. Keep up the high quality work.
My favorite version of Goku: CHANGE STATE GOKU
Mine is end of Z Goku
@@bluestreaksthehedgehog. same
for me gt feels more cannon then super
as super neagates end of z
I believe the power at the end where Goku used the universal spirit bomb, came from the spirit bomb. Given the fact I don't recall him gathering the power of the universe before. Hence he was untouchable while he was holding the spirit bomb.
How can you create SO many long videos followed like this? you are insane. Congrats.
I've seen some say that according to power levels you only need to be 20% above an opponent to completely overwhelm them
Always love seeing the original subs and feats mentioned
That has some truth
It was like that in cell vs gohan
That is true. Nappa was only 500 PL stronger than Piccolo, yet completely dominated him.
@@kingp260 nappa was between 4 or 5 thousand and piccolo was less than 2 thousand.
@@toxicsaiyan7109 Incorrect. Piccolo was 3500, Nappa was 4000. Read the guidebooks.
from what i can tell from the comments people really underrate GT Goku's strength and its sad
It's more so counter arguments to Saiyan scholar head canon arguments and clear lack of understanding of power scaling.
I'm only 8:17 minutes in and I've already ran into 3 mistakes.
1. Logical fallacy for scaling kid buu
2. Completely ignoring crucial information for scaling uub from end of Z
3. He already assumes someone that is Y× Universal+ is Multiversal... Which isn't how that works...
Just think critically of these arguments and do your own research and you'll find that these arguments are fundamentally flawed.
I don't want people to think I'm hating on GT or something, or even hating on Saiyan Scholar (As he's allowed to have an opinion) just because he has an opinion. He's just basing his whole argument of multiple false premises, which can lead you to answers far beyound the actual truth of the matter.
I.E,
Seth the programmer made an argument and video that suggests mastered super saiyan can be a 500× multiplier instead of the regular 50× multiplier we know. He made arguments, That people echoed, that the U6 fighters (Frost and Cabba) were as strong as base Vegeta who is already as strong as Ssg Goku from BOG. When you would debunk the argument showing the ssj1 Vegeta was stronger than Ssj1 Cabba (More arguments than just that) they would fall back onto the 500× vs 50× multiplier argument. However this was under the false premise that Master Ssj1 was any stronger than Ssj1 grade 1; When in fact, it wasn't.
A who cares b gt goku is weaker than all of super..... gt goku was fighting galactic threats 1/3 of the way through......
More than underrating him, is just that people don’t take it serious because is just ridiculous. If I’m not mistaken at some point in GT they just out of nowhere say Goku as a kid is far weaker than normal Goku but at the same time his kid base form is now stronger than SSJ 3 in Z which was already 400 times stronger than his base form. So his new SSJ 3 is basically more than 160000 times stronger than his last base form in Z. Or in other words 400+ times stronger than his previous SSJ 3. And that’s without SSJ 4 which gives him his adult body again. So the power scale just gets out of hand while having pretty mid villains and disrespecting the classic ones. I would say that’s the real issue
No they don't underestimate GT gokus strength a lot of people over estimate his power.
A lot of Super fanboys are in the comment section commenting first watching the video never 😒 "Super fanboys I tell you"
Real quick for me, “boundless galaxy’s” meant each of the galaxies (four north, south, east and west) are each infinitely boundless themselves. It’s why I prefer the term quadrants to galaxy’s for the story. If you divide an infinite something up into four sections at the very least one must be infinite and it’s probable all four to be given the directional differentiation.
could also say they were quadrant galaxies of the universe, not quadrants of galaxies. Also the directional differentation would make sense as they're all named after cardinal directions
I have a theory on how GT Goku might be able to grow in power so fast though it's probably not the case. Perhaps the wish that made him a child again increased his potential for growth to beyond what it was originally as the black star Dragonballs are much more powerful than the normal ones. Perhaps the extra power allows the dragon from granting more than just the requested wish and additionally granted Goku's desire to get even stronger.
It'd be like if you had a level 100 pokemon and turned back to level 1, but keeping its stats. Basically what Goku did
I get that light weight tho
@@TheToby121new game plus 🗿
I wrote a comment on it for those who might understand, but if you break it down, the dragon can only grant wishes that don't exceed it's own power. Those are namekian. Meaning he could probably only do so much, plus the wish wasn't specific, so you are not incorrect either.
I can already tell that people will judge the title without reading the last few words.
I never noticed the word think
Low effort bait titles gain low effort baited commentors
I don’t like comparing GT and Super characters solely because how each continuities are shown and done. There’s a whole another level then just the Kais with super, hell there can probably be beings even higher than Zeno! The two series are vastly different and that’s a good thing, but I wouldn’t really say GT Goku is stronger than Whis or Beerus because like I said, how vastly different the two series are (and it wouldn’t really make sense if you really do think about it). Though I’m not gonna start the Super Goku Vs GT Goku debate because that’s a whole other topic, a topic that has so many things wrong and mixed up on both sides.
I hope to who ever reads this has a great day
That's cause GT isn't stronger than Super.
When I watch super all I can think is "GT did it" at almost every turn, or "fan comic did it" since super's writer was a fan comic creator.
@@Under-Kaoz Really? Didn't know that about the writer. Also, thought the same about GT when watching Super. That or the Z movie did it already.
@@legendarywolverine5529 yeah his name is Toyatoro and his Pen name was Toyable, he made the DragonBall af fan comic with SSj5 Goku. That's how he got the white hair of Ultra instinct, the lamest form ever imo.
I agree movies did it as well. Like the resurrection of bad guys like Freeza. The tournament of power happened in another fan comic and was done 1000 times better, before super even came out. Super turned Freeza and Broly both into lame Jokes. We could both probably go on about each instance haha.
But since he made fan comics, I'm sure he read many of the others.
@@Under-Kaoz You mean Dragon Ball Multiverse, right? I've read that before, but stopped when I lost interest and it hadn't updated in a while. This was years ago. Though, I have to agree it was done better there - even if it felt like they used multiple timelines instead of universes to me when I first read it - but both have things about them I didn't like. Dyspo, Jiren, the universe love warriors, etc for ToP. Multiverse was just these weak people in the fight thinking they could do something, which was laughable and Android Yamcha. Just never liked that idea. But Multiverse's plot and backstories were way better too.
You're right, we could but no real point to do so.
He probably did. Lol.
To be honest the problem with pan is that she was utilized about as well as Sakura in Naruto. The character and everything to do with her could have been so much better, but they didn't use it right
Sakura was tapping into the Change State that's how she inflicted damage on Kaguya in BASE.
Sakura was done good in early Shipudden. But then Kishimoto through her to the side. I can’t say the same for Pan.
Wrong
Now imagine an omega Shenron formed from the SUPER dragon balls, he would be the strongest character in fiction
I don’t think it’s the power of the dragon balls that made the shadow dragons stronger but rather the selflessness of the wish. The wishes that made all of the dragons are mirrored by the dragons. Omega was the most evil and strong due to being made from the most selfless wish.
Dark super dragon balls?
@@ohhellwhereami2574 I think he’s referring to the big planet sized dragon balls from dbs
All of these numbers and multipliers are unofficial, but very accurate, for GT power scaling. For Dragon Ball Super, you may want to use DBZ Kai since it's generally accepted that the Super anime is the sequel to that. But like you said, Kai is supposed to be more accurate to the original manga and it was even called the "Akira Toriyama original cut edition," so there will be inconsistencies between Kai and Super.
Personally, I would use Kai while I would use the original Z anime for GT. I don't care if this makes Super stronger, but GT isn't out of multiversal range like people thought.
Can we appreciate him putting the awesome Legacy of Goku Ost
Agreed
Yes it's perfection honestly
This guys voice, idk what it s about it, it's just amazing
WOW, I actually watched/listened to this whole episode without pausing and coming back. So 2hrs and 40mins.
I have to say to you SS , Way to Fucking Go!!!!! This is probably and most likely the absolute best description of dragon Ball power ups I have ever seen or ever heard!!!! Way to Fucking Go !!!!!!
Same
It’s literally all made up trash head canon
I am about half way through your video and after you noticing how much mythology is wound in with GT I wonder if you have noticed all the tarot imagery in the shadow dragon arc mostly in the omega section.
He never actually fired the big bang Kamehameha. It did all that damage while charging.
Your serious?
@@jacksonmurphy8169 yes. You can see he never releases it.
@@kyleanderson449 well…shit man
That's crazy
Wait… are you serious?
Makes me want to rewatch gt.
Hercule has to be the strongest human EVER to take a kick from omega shenron! do a video on Hercule's true power please!!
kRILLIN
@@joesousa9938 I'm talking about outside the z fighters
I'm pretty sure Hurcles power was stated to be around 130ish-140 during the Tenkaichi tournament during Buu Saga because of the punching bag.. Trying to pull from my memory so I could be completely wrong and It's 112 sooo.....
Going by the numbers of this video its probably 735.539 quintillion times stronger than Kid Buu, give or take a couple of 100 quadrillions...
He’s holding back its not like Omegas going all out on a human
I am very glad you're back, and got 100k subscribers. Hope you get 1 million soon man.
I never liked how there were so many strong villains in GT yet Freiza was suppose to be the strongest villain in the universe at the time
People trained, even Tien could've killed Frieza if he trained in the time chamber
As time goes by things change. Like remember how the Great Recession was a thing? Well that is practically ancient history to some. What is the now is Russia and Ukraine, that’s not including the filler of Covid, Trumps election, and other filler arcs.
He's the strongest now
Im stunned people still rely on power scaling in DB. It’s inconsistent and will never make sense. Goku being able to surpass his SSJ3 in base is a stretch for GT. In Super UI was supposed to be the pinnacle of power, skill of the Angels, yet Jiren still managed to hurt Goku in battle. Vados stated Jiren strength transcends time itself in the battle with Hit which makes no sense yet again. The real power scaling of a character is equal to what the writers need it to be in that particular moment.
Yup. There's always plot convenient power-ups here and there. But, it is fiction and it can't always make sense even though most of our brains are wired to think otherwise. In Dragon Ball, you can destroy infinity, fly, power pole to the moon, be the fastest man alive even when you're the bulkiest man alive too, etc.
It's fking fiction, what do you expect?
By your logic them flying or even changing hair should make feel weird
This video was great, despite the clickbait. I got me watching.
I still think you guys underestimate old villians, Majin Buu no matter the form is still very powerful and dangerous for anyone to fight against.
This is one thing I liked about super. They never tried to discredit Buu, the real Buu. Even when they introduced future Trunks again they didn't try to tell us he beat Buu, instead they told us he beat Babadi and prevented Buu from being released. We all know Buu would have stomped Trunks.
Your right lol it’s uub now
Ok nappa is pretty strong I guess, thx now I won't mess with such force to not reckoned with
I feel like I need to take a shot every time he says SSJ lmao
bro finally but some respect on GT
Could wish granting be considered a high level martial art in dragonball? Maybe he went to learn from the dragons in their realm. Maybe he doesn't age in dragon realm like that other dimension he was at previously. Gathering the goku ball summons an ageless goku from dragon realm.
Poor kid buu... reduced to a mere unit of measurement
Same thing goes to ssj3 buu saga goku,buuhan and z vegito.those are the characters you should use when scaling GT and super since both scale off the buu saga.
tbf Kid Buu is the last arc boss for the Buu arc itself and scaling any other Buu would probably be complicated even if he wasn't the strongest. SSJ3 Goku wasn't mastered either so it took too much energy, Buuhan's strength can't be scaled properly, and Z Vegito pretty much solidified how fusions would be scaled for all of Dragon Ball.
I always assumed that the Kid Goku was significantly weaker than his adult self, and that proper scaling wouldn’t go into effect until he hit SS4, when his body fully matured again.
Also, people can say what they want about GT, but the Dragon arc was amazing and SS4 is the coolest transformation.
Exactly! Kid goku was definitely weaker than his adult form
Also SSJ4 is the best thing that happen to GT.
If not for that it was kinda mid and the animation was kinda suspect at certain times.
I love super. Far more consistent with power levels
Not that kid goku is weaker
Its stated somewhere his child body isnt developed, it cant manage his ki properly, hence y he struggled
In ssj4 he could use his ki normally
👊
Definitely watching this tonight.
Goku Vs Ledgic is underrated and still one of my favorite fights
Dragon Ball GT will always be the perfect true ending to the series.
I consider GT the true ending. To me the Dragon Ball series is over, Super is an abomination
@@KKMM-7200 super is to dragon ball what EA is to gaming
@@KKMM-7200 super story is just unnecessary and all just feels like filler honestly. The whole time I’m watching super could be summed up in three words: “Okay but why?”
@@chuganoga1908 super is miles better than gt
@@KKMM-7200 nah super has peak arcs like top and moro and Goku Balck and the dbs broly movie which was a masterpiece
The animation in this video is incredible.
You are fucking awesome bro.
Now that I think about it. We shouldn't really scale beerus and whis to GT Goku since we have yet to see beerus's true power. And Whis we barely even saw any of it. So we can't scale them.
His power is kind of exposed (logically). If 70% was used against SSG. Howuch would be used for SSB? Then UI? It gets ridiculous eventually.
@@sambeezy007 70% thing has been debunked by whis and just plain common sense . No way he was using 70% when he fought goku considering how much stronger goku and vegeta got since that day and even after all that when vegeta fought beerus in the manga he got stomped easily after vegeta started to get cocky.
@@Shaneo0oo I got you. But all in all, these transformations and techniques are getting out of hand. After the Moro arc I stopped keeping up consistently.
@@sambeezy007 …. I mean if you stopped keeping up after the moro arc which was the last arc before the current one you would’ve known Beerus lied about using 70% of his power.
No does gt Goku scale towards Super Goku so if super Goku can’t win why would gt win ?
@@MadderEmo I guess I'm uninformed at this point. Shows how ridiculous the show has gotten. My first movie was Tree of Might and first episode was Teen Gohan going SS2. Ahh the good old days
Man you so fucking detailed with these videos
Universal+ in my opinion means
"The ability to destroy or get rid of a specific universe spacetime and laws"
The definition you used in my opinion
Is a galaxy+
"The ability to shake a spacetime continue or law in a specific galaxy or a dimension the size of galaxy"
He could hold like 40tons per arm without even trying. So he was crazy strong
Bro he's so opinionated instead of using his brain and saying: "Hm, ssj3 Goku stood no chance against Buuhan, but is going toe to toe with Kid Buu. Who is stronger?"
Instead of using your brain and understanding what plot power ups are, you try and apply logic to Dragon Ball.
In Dragon Ball Legends story, the GT characters were shown to be stronger than people give them credit for:
1, GT Goku's Super Full Power Saiyan 4 was shown to be at least strong as Fused Zamasu' halo form in the 2nd anniversary story.
2, Shallot's Super Saiyan God form was shown to be at least strong as GT Goku's SS4 form when facing Nuova Shenron, but at the time Shallot's SSG form was almost strong as Post-ToP Goku's SSB form when the Saiyans fought Goku Black, who became stronger.
3, GT Goku, GT Vegeta, and Nuova all fought Corrupt Fused Zamasu, and they held their own for a bit in the 3rd anniversary story.
Thanks to DBL, GT Goku's SS4 form is almost strong as Post-ToP Goku's SSB form, meaning DBS characters aren't that much stronger than the GT characters.
Not to mention that SSJ4 Gogeta completely stomped Merged Zamasu, even Vegito Blue was really impressed when he made his appearance.
@@MajinBlueTheFutureMade yeah because GT characters are strong
And before anyone says anything, yes, we all know Legends isn't canon. This is just for you to think about.
Dragon Ball Legends is the same story where Majin Vegeta is as strong as Caulifla and Kale stop using that.
Omega Shenron could only destroy the Universe passively through spread of negative energy meanwhile God Goku enacted the feat directly with his fists. This is the power Super has over GT and before you say “GT Base Goku shook Hell” hell is literally one part of the universe as confirmed in Super.
@@MajinBlueTheFutureMade stop using legends Majin Vegeta is as strong as Caulifla and Kale in there.
I would say the only thing with Super 17 is that he was allowing himself to be wide open and vulnerable. I think the scene showed the actual 17 realizing what he was doing, fully forcing a wide open scenario for Goku to defeat him.
18 was firing Ki blasts, keeping 17 to stay in the energy absorption pose. Goku hid amongst the Ki blasts and hit 17 with the Dragon Fist, then finished him with a Kamehameha.
If I were to rewrite GT I would only change the duration of the battles and expand upon the dialogue to properly explain things. I would also tweak the enemies strength to make more sense for example I would make ledgic /muchi muchi and lord luud an omega shenrom level threat. These fights deserved to be way longer and this will definitely showcase Goku's power jump even better when he starts dominating enemies like s17 I'm ssj1. I'd probably have Vegeta be the one to discover super 17s absorbtion and also give Vegeta the win against him pre absorbtion.
When Kid Buu IS the scale for measuring power, its obvious these are some strong guys
1:48:25 That glass is far beyond 5D power level and can erase all of your favorite animes. Change my mind
They’re maybe be alot of problems with GT but you got to admit. SSJ4 is one of the Greatest Forms ever seen.
This video makes crystal clear how broken GT is (even with lowballs included) and I love it. All the crazy numbers left me stunned. Thank you for using Buu as a reference point, it really helps. I generally don't look at powerlevels (they fluctuate like crazy anyways), only at performance differences between current characters and then compare them to characters who have shown us what they were capable of, so this vid and all the other power scale vids that I recently binged in this channel portray that perfectly.
I think it is a good proof for people who still downplay the DB universe just because "they don't have mUlTiVeRsAl FeAtS". Like world building logic or narrative doesn't exist. I know sometimes powerscaling is all over the place, especially in DBS (thank you Golden Emperor Dripza, Tilted Trunks and most of all thank you "everyone and their mom goes god mode TOP preparation arc" ), but in the end, this is pure fiction and we analyse it to have fun and because we enjoy it. We are here for the adventure, the hype, the tears, the tension and the progression (in the form of scaling), all the badass moments that we share with our favorite characters who we grew up together with, not to earn a PhD in weebanomics. At least that's how I see it.
Loved the vid. I hope for that superhuman attempt at DBS scaling some point down the line. Really interested to see your take on that.
Literally all fake bs
"Power levels are bullshit!" TFS Vegeta, probably
bro the way I like to put the ssj 4 multiplier is whatever kind of power he needs to overcome his adversary and then a x 4 multiplier for the dragon fist... I feel like the changed state concept comes from the super sayajin of legend being stated to constantly grow stronger, so I think the primal instincts just let you power up monkey style up until your body can handle at least a x 2 ssj multiplier over your opponent, and that would leave all that SSJ5 crap on the side, SSJ4 UI is the shit anyways aka ultra slickstinct 😉😆
This video was straight🔥🔥🔥
in my opinion dragon god goku would make ultra instinct look like a party trick
1:39:10 GOT DAMN BRO and I thought frieza had a big power jump my g💀
I like how this guy uses classifications from some random wiki and just expects everybody to know what he's talking about, much less treat it as some kind of agreed upon standard.
I hope you do a video like this for Super Hero. It seems like Piccolo might get a power boost. He's probably still gonna get washed by the big bad, but at this point, Piccolo fans have to take what we can get.
Id rather take official statements rather than head canon.
Nobody can do better than this.
I have 3 questions...1)Is 100 years time skip (dragon god) change state goku stronger than Zalama? (The Omnipotent creator of the super dragon balls and zeno himself) 2)if the dragon realm is outside the universe then where is it? 3)is the dragon realm related to "Super Saiyan 5" that bulma stated at some point in GT?
Did you account for Goku's handicap being turned back into a kid? I'm pretty sure early on the show mentions Goku can fight at his true power because his kid body can't handle it.
That's a better reason for pan and trunks to be anywhere near Goku in terms of power. I would say that that factor would possibly mean rethinking your numbers.
Surprised I finally found this comment. Every single number is wrong if this isn't taken into account
I am a firm believer that gt characters are galaxies stronger than super characters. So glad that this video exists to back that up. Fuck your god ki, the true saiyan power beats all!
Not really but your opinion 🤷♂️
@@squidman2425 did you not watch the video bruh💀
@@teamonion9695 yes I did I sort of waste two hours in a good put together video of something I already know and I don't hate gt sure it's just as sloppy as super I love super Saiyan 4 and the idea of it but it's just not comparable in power-wise to super plus it's all the same shit wow in dbz DBS and gt some guy is just so powerful they can shake and break all of reality in an infinite space gt Goku UI Goku buu buuhan Jiren etc it’s all the same feats “wow that guy is so powerful he can blow up the earth and the universeeegeiebekdkdk” yeah heard form 3 different dragon series nothing new but hey that's my opinion y'all have yours
@@squidman2425 Yes, the show got formulaic once z really started to pick up, and I realize that. And I always preferred it when the show was more about martial arts, and just the overall vibe of that the original dragon ball and early z gave off. I definitely prefer those points of the show. But, I can still appreciate the later arcs. Especially cell. I love that saga, and I know I'm not the only one. It's when the buu saga comes in, that's when the show takes a decline. And although I still really appreciate that saga as a stand alone, it didn't do much in terms of living up to previous arcs. Now, on to get. And the first thing we're greeted with is: an arc that perfectly encapsulates the feeling of the first arc of dragon ball. I absolutely *ador* this part of gt. And unlike most, I feel like once I finish it l, most of my favorite moments will come from that portion of the show. And, because of this amazing arc, that's done perfectly, I find it hard not to love the rest of gt. And I really do believe that it would've been a really nice ending to dragon ball as a whole.
...And then we get this garbage, cash grab of a show "dragon ball super." But, don't even get me started on that. Anyway, I definitely see where you're coming from. I mostly just made this comment out of love for gt, and hate for super. I can definitely agree with your statements, I just really believe that super is trash. And gt is clearly the better show.
@@teamonion9695 I respect your opinion I like original DB a lot and the adventures goofiness martial arts etc DB is sort of underrated because when people think of Dragon ball they most likely think of Extreme testosterone and screaming for a whole episode but dragon ball used to be more simple than that it was just a monkey kid who wanted to collect the dragon balls with his new friend and ofc to get stronger
SSJ4 Gogeta and Omega shenron is literally Universal+
i disagree with rildo being as strong as angelic moro yes both did become the planet but it isn't only one way to perform crazy feats like that take time abilities for example guldo can stop time and hit can skip tru time and also stop it for those around him to isolate people he is hunting like the crime boss both can mess with time but one is way weaker then the other so the same applies here
he said it was a simliar feat
moro would beat him
imo
What we should be talking about, is how rowdy the universe is to handle the kind of power ups you mention.
I love ss4 as a transformation one of the reasons gt in a good storyline and whe I won't deny its hiccups but super is not perfect either
How did scholars calculator survive this?!
Why gt Goku is a monster the movie
Great work. But I believe personally that it is incorrect. His transformation into a child set him back considerably, which makes most things in the first half of the show at least 50% worse than what you've calculated.
This also helps explain why Trunks appears to be on equal standing with Goku in Super Sayajin form in the beginning as well.
I believe that the statement Goku makes that his power "It's even greater than Buu's" is where the show officially confirms that they have now reached/exceeded the level that they were previously at in the Buu Saga. From that point onwards Goku no longer has a handicap while fighting in his child-body.
@@tripleheadedmonkey6613 i dont understand but base was shown to be as strong as uub idk tho
@@Redfnafzilla_YT Yes but Goku's training/fighting with Uub was during the first episode and before the wish was made that regressed Goku into a child.
Ssj4 gogeta wiped ultra instic goku with force of his eyes 🦸♂️
Please stop
Mui goku stomps
@@godspeedforce9371 Don't know about that one. Bare min MUI Goku can't even touch Cooler, let alone Ssj4 Gogeta.
@@waffleten9750 no no
We arent doing this again
In terms of speed and strenth,ui goku is above ssj4 goku
@@waffleten9750 due to fact that dbs goku would already scale to universal,which would give him infinite speed,due to vegeta's quote of power equal speed
Dbs goku bog arc would already have immesurable speed
@@godspeedforce9371 Still slower than Instant.
Also dude why do you insist on keep lying about this stuff.
Like you said Zamasu was going to destroy all the Universes when not only is it never shown but at best it was just the universe.
You say Zeno blew up a timeline but again not only is it never stated by you see them go back to it.
IT all makes sense now, GT's insane power levers probably surpass that of the grand minister in DB Super, Flat out outrages.
My # theory is at some point in time Goku made a wish with Shemron not a Bid for Power but rather for a symbiotic connection so he can use magical ONE-PUNCH, man! And with that ability there becomes the blue glow around him and suggests the multi definitional nature of the dragon traveling through the enemy so there becomes a residual stamina after the Dragon Fist.
This video explains (with math) how goku In dragon ball GT is statistically Underrated and stronger than dragon ball super Beeris\goku/wiss.
1:00:15 time stamp.
I'm sorry but, I feel like with 1 sentence, Dragon Ball "GT makes no sense." you have made your argument mute. :(
It hasn't made it mute it only explains why characters get so strong so fast. While it is true its fucking dumb that Pan at any moment is stronger than Baby.
In certain technical terms he is right. It's always bothered me that Dragon Ball has such an inconsistent power/explosion/destructive capacity narrative. If they are as powerful as they should be the whole world would shake and explode. I feel like the argument is mute because it's too twisted up.
DBGT really cemented the idea that power levels are too inconsistent.
The Cell part had me f*kin dead 💀
GT>> Super. SSJ4 represents the true final form of a Saiyan, none of that rainbow hair rubbish in Super!
Since GT Goku fuses with shenron and become dragon god,does that mean he has God Ki like DBS Goku
It just makes no sense for kid buu to be the strongest since goku didn't have a chance against buuhan and a little time later he is able to go almost toe to toe with kid buu. It would only make sense if kid buu was massively holding back, which is improbable that 'the ultimate evil' would hold back so much
Yeah, idk where he's getting the kid but strongest. They never said that, they said he was the most dangerous.
@@wafflesmcgallagher934 CONSTANT statements from Goku as well as the narrator were stating that Kid Buu was the strongest opponent they went up against. On top of this, even Takao Koyama, Chief Writer of Z, has stated that Kid Buu is the strongest. Literally EVERYWHERE in Z it is stating that Kid Buu is stronger.
@@Ninjaguy3128 in the dub? Sure. Dun said a lot of wrong stuff all the time.
@@wafflesmcgallagher934 In the sub and from the screenwriter.
@@sugondeez1708 most dangerous? Sure, strongest? Absolutely not
dude i love you
Idk about that one cheif
you look very hor ny
Bwahahahaa! He Called Nova a fire type Pokemon. I'm dead...
Pan didn't kick gotens ass 😅 there's no way goten is going to fight seriously with his cute little neice, he obviously let her win. Also, gotens 1st match was with fat Buu and goten beat him 💪
dude if goten let her win it whont shwo him lookonig hurt pan slep hrut the shit out him
@@ssjgotenks2009 Ofcourse goten was hurt. Pan is strong. But, goten definitely let her win and took a beating. I would do the same for my neice or daughter and I'm sure you would too....especially if the whole world was watching. If vegeta fought pan, he will lose as well. His pride won't let him win agaisnt a 5 year old.
Is gt trunks really 500,000 times stronger than kid buu? I find that hard to digest
Nvm, I did the mental gymnastics and it does make sense lol
After watching this I’m even more convinced that SSJ4 is stronger than SSJB
How
@@godspeedforce9371 I mean God made Goku go from Multi Solar System to Galaxy right? So like the bare minimum, God us like a 125 billion* but Ssj 4 by itself is stated as being as strong as Vegito maybe even Super Vegito.
But Powerlevels stop being a thing after Frieza.
So depending on how strong of a Powerlevel you think Vegito had is the multiplier of Ssj 4.
So God bare minimum 125 billion*
Ssj4 bare minimum Vegito*
@@waffleten9750 Goku went from solar system level to multiversal lowballed as he saved more than just the mortal universal,which vegito hasnt shown to be capable of doing
Power levels became too high due to many strong characters
Ssj4 is easily above vegito as ssj4 goku was able to fight ssj2 baby,who goku said to be stronger than vegito
@@godspeedforce9371 strength is not the only way to beat someone
@@Xester_200 if you're a higher tier of infinity like dbs goku
Being stronger means that person has higher traits that is used in a fight
I don't want to waste your time Saiyan Scholar, but could you tell me where the domination multipliers come from? They're a cool and fun concept that I myself use but I don't understand where they came from.
They are derived from differences in power during the Saiyan/Namek saga as well as combining Daizenshuu material about emitting twice the Ki to negate.
@@SaiyanScholar Alright, thanks. Some people thought 1.25x - 1.75x came out of nowhere and was headcanon with no proof, but now I know that's not true.
I would like to point out an issue: For your training boosts, you take the multiplier of the training and multiply it by time spent training, and assume that equals the multiplier of the increased time of training. That would work if the training was a linear increase(if a character increases their power level by 100 after training for one year, no matter how powerful they already were, then doing that form of training for ten years would increase their power level by 1000). However, the way training seems to work in dragon ball is that it is multiplicative (this can by explained by assuming that a more powerful character is capable of enduring more intense training, which provides a greater increase). So let's imagine that Goku were to undergo a training regiment that doubled his power after a year. How much stronger would he get after 10 years of training that way? Your method of calculating it would put the multiplier at 2X10, or 20 times stronger. However, I posit that the growth would look different: After 1 year, his power would have doubled. After the second, it would have doubled again, putting him at 4 times his original strength. After the third year it would double again, to 8 times. After that it would continue doubling every single year, going to 16, then 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, and finally 1024 times more powerful after 10 years of training. In other words, I claim that, rather multiplying the training multiplier by the amount of that form of training is done, you should instead start with the training multiplier and RAISE it to the power of however many times the training is performed. In the case of dragon god Goku, using the numbers you provided, he should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10^1700 (that's a one with 1700 zeroes after it) times stronger than Kid Buu. For context, the number you gave for changed state dragon god goku using the dragon fist, 102 septenvigintillion is 1.02*10^83, which is incidentally roughly egual to the estimated number of particles in the universe, suggesting that even with your lower estimate, if there was a universe where every single particle was an identical copy of our universe, Goku could destroy all of them with a single dragon fist, as long as he is in his changed state, as you considered Kid Buu to be universal+.
tl;dr: I believe you made a mistake at 2:24:16, leading you to place Goku at 1600 orders of magnitude less powerful than he should be. You also made a similar mistake at 7:50, leading you to claim that Goku was 10 times stronger than I believe he should be.
TLDR: ur a nerd
I see so if i understood that goku who trained for 10 years and got 400x stronger than he was 10 years ago, he should not be 200x stronger if he trained for 5 years , he should be much weaker. I agree on that ,that makes much more sense.
@@Chaoskiller2794 no
@@yungblade7 elaborate lmfao xD
I'm gonna say, no joke, that the glass in GT was probably Serious Business. This is post Cell and Buu, two incidents where events happening in one place cause earthquakes on the other side of the planet. Someone, let's say Capsule Corp., probably started making new forms of glass (or transparent metals of some kind) just in case something like that happened again.
Which it did.
Goal oriented training increases the potential for one’s training significantly in DB, so Goku did not get 200x stronger since he has no goal to work towards.
His goal is to be the strongest he can be. if he can still get stronger, he will!
then in the 10 years he dindt need to train
but fought uub who was as strong as kid buu
he had no reason
why did goku train the 7 years cell was defeated
how about supers time skip
to get stronger\
Bruh you're trying to fit yr narrative goku and uub likely had goals in 10 years so this could be case as to why gt goku has broken zenkai because he overstrain his body in 10 yr skip beyond his limit
To be honest I like super but I also like gt, z, and DragonBall, so many people crap on gt but it really wasn't bad
Ikr we're all db fans let's get along with each other at least 🤦🏾♂️
After watching this all the way through I think gt goku is at the same if not higher rank than zeno
No. GT Goku is only low multiversal. That’s base Goku in super and Goku isn’t even on zeno level
@@maalikserebryakov eh I agree
@@cheemsthagoat7359 baby is outerversal, so no.
I think it’s funny how frieze wanted to take over the universe but some random body guard is billions of times stronger.
Bad writing
*Everything* from GT is *stronger* because it comes *after!!*
Or because it has not only the original Z anime but even the movies. Which makes Cell Saga characters universal.
doesnt come after got retconned
That's not how it works buddy. Just because GT "happens" after doesnt mean the characters are stronger
no way you seriously think kid buu was stronger than buuhan. that makes absolutely no sense at all. why would goku and vegeta need to fuse into vegito if buuhan were weaker than kid buu? goku could have just gone ssj3 and beat him by himself.
goku himself stated that he's no match for super buu, and that's without super buu having absorbed piccolo, gotenks, or gohan.
kid buu < ssj3 goku < super buu < ultimate gohan < buuhan
it doesn't matter what the screenwriter says, this is basic logic. it's especially pointless to rely on their statements when they contradict themselves left and right. just look at what happens in the source material and your viewpoint is untenable.