The Timeless Children - DOCTOR WHO REVIEW
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- The canon is dead. Long live the canon. MrTARDIS reviews the 'Doctor Who' Series 12 finale; 'The Timeless Children'.
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"Welcome, Doctor. Are you suffering comfortably? Then, I'll begin.
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Thanks for watching this review, everybody! Please help my channel by appeasing the RUclips algorithm by "liking" this video, leaving ANY comment down below and sharing the video around. Thanks a lot!
Thank you for reviewing this latest season of Doctor Who. Seeing a more balanced opinion with some positive insight and well-thought out criticism has renewed my interest and enjoyment of the series. If your work schedule and your mental health allow it, I would love for you to review Revolution of the Daleks and Series 13 when they release.
But what about the Time of the Doctor? Isn't that story pointless now that we know that the Doctor doesn't have any regeneration limits?
I always end up Liking your videos before watching them, Will 😂
@Kaagh178 Riiiiight. Because ANYONE who doesn't share your opinion HAS to be getting paid off by the BBC.
whats wrong with a white saving her, the SJW in you hates that white men are in it
I don't understand how the Doctor can overload the marrix with her memories if they are already in the matrix.
I think it was the meta-ness of it. (Remember, the theme tune played during that bit.)
Because it's stupid.
Bad writing
Honestly like other people, i think that the timeless child should have been the master! Not only would that explain his anger (he is supposed to be the most important and influential to the time lords, yet is overshadowed by the doctor.), but it would also explain how he keeps coming back!
Edit: i recently just remembered that in trial of the doctor, that the matrix was used in that to show if he should be seen as guilty or innocent. But it turns out that the matrix was tampered with by either the master or the valeyard. Now with that in mind, notice that the thing that gave out the information that the doctor was the timeless child....was the matrix. A machine that has the reputation of "never being wrong" yet in the past has been tampered with to mess with the doctor. Hmm.
And the Doctor should have been the explorer that found the Master/Timeless Child. That is why she NOW calls herself the The Doctor as a way to atone for what she did. They were so close to a really rewarding rewrite of the Doctors history and they messed it up at the end.
Keelan Barron It wouldn't have worked, because it completely contradicts the Master's character from 1976-96, where he has reached the end of his regeneration cycle and is using other people's bodies to survive. He only gained a new set of regenerations when he was resurrected for the Time War. It is hinted at that the Timeless Child has virtually infinite regenerations, so making them the Master is illogical, when you think about it.
@@vandreadparty umm, no. The main reason why the master would be angry would be because he is supposed to be important yet is overshadowed by a random time lord who wouldn't exist without him.
@@bradleywillard2361 except that it would fit more then the doctor being the timeless child! (Maybe it wouldn't work with the whole "he keeps coming back" thing, but it would still work for the angry bit.)
Keelan Barron I still think that the Timeless Child would have worked better if they were an original character. You don’t get many original Gallifreyan characters in the revived series, so to invent a new one would have made for a refreshing change of pace, as opposed to doing a complete 180 and making them the Doctor.
I really don’t see how the Timeless Child doesn’t change the Doctor as a character. Yes, the Doctor’s outlook on the world hasn’t changed because their experience is still the same due to not having those memories, but the way the audience perceives the character of the Doctor is different. I much prefer the idea of the Doctor being an unremarkable Time Lord, someone who barely even qualified and never truly fit in because they were rebellious. They ran away because they wanted to see the universe instead of being holed up on Gallifrey, observing. The Doctor was special because they chose to be special by making a difference in the universe.
Now we know that the Doctor was actually one of the most fundamentally important characters in Gallifreyan society - important not by choice, but by genetics. Leaving Gallifrey not just because they didn’t fit in, but they didn’t fit in because they literally weren’t even Gallifreyan. I feel it cheapens the character motivation of the Doctor in a way that Chibnall tries to dance around immediately by claiming it doesn’t matter, but the fact is it does matter because this changes the Doctor’s place in the universe. And i can’t say that making the Doctor an inter dimensional “chosen one” is a more interesting place to take the character.
DALEK86 but surely you say you like the idea that he ran away because he wanted to see the universe & interact with it rather than just observe - but though he doesn’t remember it , isn’t this subliminally what he was doing when in the Division - interfering rather than observing & this subliminal memory may have driven his later departure again. In classic who the Doctor was human, then half human. In Hell Bent the Doctor said he was the hybrid - did this change the doctor forever for you as a character or have you just forgotten it like everybody else ? If you don’t like one recon there’ll be another along shortly - it’s always been the doctor who way 😎
Plus the "it doesn't matter" rings hollow because the past 2 episodes have been "look at how important this big upcoming twist is! It's such a big deal! Woo"
The fact the line this doesn’t change me at all was even in the show just implies that even Chibnall KNOWS this changes everything and he felt the need to throw it in just to get away with it
@@nathanthomas5133 I hate both twists. WHY DO WE NEED TO MAKE THE DOCTOR MORE THEN JUST A TIMELORD?
@@Pelgaphilthecapybara true eveyone hated the "oh Davros I am far more than just another Time Lord" in the 80s. Why are they digging it up now?
Its disappointing to see the Cybermen once again playing second fiddle to the Master for the third time.
Seriously, it's crazy to realize that literally 3/5 latest finales are Master-Cyberman stories. What is it about them? Try something new! There's a plethora of villains out there, and a plethora² of combinations to pursue.
4 if you count 5 doctors
There is logic in what he says
Here's to the Steve & Jeff Big Finish series...
The thing I don’t like about the doctor being the timeless child is that the doctor is special because “she was born special.” Not because of what’s she’s gone through or what she’s done, or it’s a just a normal ordinary gallifreyan who chose to run away because of her own decisions, but the doctor is the most important person in the entire universe and is super special. It takes away from a certain progression that started with William Hartnell, and makes each doctor feel less unique and personal.
The Golden Arrow she’s obviously not that special - someone threw her through a portal to get rid of her ! Presumably her own race can regenerate so not special in that sense either. Also, why does the ability to regenerate make her ‘the most important person in the universe’? Even if she did help the gallifreyans genetically it might make her important on gallifrey , but I’m sure the rest of the universe doesn’t care much!
Captain Jack is immortal (as are some of the immortals shown this season) - is he the most important person in the universe too because he’s immortal ? She also didn’t remember any of it, so surely none of it affected how she acted in previous regenerations as she wasn’t even aware of her ‘specialness’ so couldn’t have influenced her progression from Hartnell onwards you mention (?)
Spot on!
Nathan Thomas I suppose so, but I feel giving the Doctor a further backstory, whilst interesting, gets Rid Of a certain progression of the character. Not ruining or harming William Hartnell era in any way, but cheapens a certain aspect of that simple beginning. The doctor may not be special to her own people, but she’s been made important being the catalyst that launched Gallifreyan society. It’s more the fact I’m annoyed that the show thinks (and it has done for a long time) that the Doctor needs to be have a backstory that makes him/ her seem more powerful or more unique, but he/ she was like that on her own anyway. Cuz, when I look at a poster of Matt Smith or William Hartnell for example, I don’t see the timeless child, I see the small boy who ran away. I have similar feeling to the reveal that say Council of Geeks has. It’s not the lore I’m annoyed about, it’s what it means for the character. He/ she has effectly has become a chosen one archetype.
The Golden Arrow it’s true but she’s only a catalyst physically - as no-one knows it , since she had it wiped from her mind, it was hidden from the timelords & hidden (and parts redacted) in the matrix so doesn’t seem to have been much left to act as a catalyst beyond the initial event.
Personally I’m not that interested in trawling through the history & canon (prefer to keep that as Easter eggs for diehard fans to giggle at) - all I want are interesting, well told stories & characters that entertain me, though in season 12 everything was about the arcs & the standalone stories were either poor (cough, ‘orphan 55’)or got thrown under the bus by the BBC who were desperate to big up the finale & not bother promoting the standalone eps. Though I guess that’s why Judoon worked so well as it was sold as just another filler episode so people had low expectations. I’d rather every episode was treated like a finale or they just end up feeling like time-fillers.
@The Autistic Whovian I understand (I'm autistic as well) But its like someone acknowledging my autism vs. someone actively saying I was the very first autistic person and also I'm an alien, and also I started autism (I know this is a bit of a weird metaphor but keep with me) We understand the doctor is special. My problem with this is that it is not needed to make the Doctor any more special. The Doctor was quite unique enough on her own. We didn't really need this, from a story perspective anyway. I agree with the thematic terms though. You do make a good argument however.
Combination of two warrior races (Time Lord and Cyberman)? Standing in the ashes of Gallifrey? Broke a million hearts to heal his own?
The Master is the Hybrid confirmed!
And I would happily accept that as canon over the Doctor and Clara both being the Hybrid if it were true.
I'd like to see a fan edit where the Doctor goes "Have a blast of this, matrix…" and then we see all the things that contradict canon prior to Jodie's run (The Doctor saying he built the TARDIS in The Chase, Paul McGann stating he's half human, The Doctor stating he's human in The Savages, Patrick Troughton explaining how the TARDIS makes people regenerate in Power of the Daleks etc… Hell, why not throw in the Myrka too for good measure).
@Najawin examples
@@hothemeep1219
Have you watched this show before?
@@warblenoise im a fan since 2010, and I watch all of NuWho and all hartnell, troughton pertwee and baker's episodes so far (I'm currently watching Castrovalva)
@@hothemeep1219
Good for you
@Najawin I do feel the doctor is more a victime tbh. The term "god" qualify a superior mind who dominate everything and create everything. The doctor was a little girl, mysterious, a paria. She had this mysterious ability of regenerate and was treated like a lab rat. The doctor is not the leader of Gallifrey cuz he represents the big secret of timelord's origins. Just imagine : if the doctor was the leader, he could have more possibilities to discover the truth. So the doctor was, again, a paria in Gallifrey, so it could be easy for the timelords to hide this secret. And the timeless child plot could be a clue about why did he call himself the doctor. In the timeless children, we learned that the Doctor worked for the Division. If the doctor was like an oppresor or tyrant when he worked in the Division, so in his second life, maybe his subconscious wanted to be a better person so he called himself the doctor, to fix the mess he did. What about Tecteun, this explorer could totally be the mysterious woman in the End of Time. The woman cried, perhaps because she knew all that is her fault, or she knew what she did to the doctor. For the time of the doctor "plot hole" : its really simple and here's why :
-the doctor was originally a child (timeless child)
-when he looked like a teenager, he began to work for the Division
-then, when he was old, he stopped working for the Division and this top secret "police" decide to erase ALL doctor's memory
-the master confirmed in the finale, that the time when him and the doctor were in the academie truly happened : so the Doctor was turn back into a child (hartnell incarnation). You could asked me : Why ? Well, to keep the secret. We also know that it was Tecteun who suggest the whole idea of only 13 regenerations possible (a cycle) : After the timelords erased doctor's memory, they could totally limited his regenerations like all other timelords. Some people say that 12 said that when he was hartnell, it was his first regeneration : I repeat : for the doctor, his life began with Hartnell, when he was a child/or a baby. So when 1 regenerated, it was the first time for hil cuz he had no memories of the others (and still don't have). Last point about river song. The doctor was called the timeless chils ok ? Words are important right ? She was timeless. BUT perhaps she went trough the vortex and this travel was the origin of the regenerations, so no plot hole for river song or any other things. Timeless child plot add and do not destroy
RIP Cyber-Geoff. Be born... Cyber-Jeff!
Ko Shamus' sacrifice makes lots of sense he fought the cybermen for years they killed lots of people he knew and given the chance he would destroy them even if that mrans himself.
It makes in-nerative sense, but falls flat emotionally. We are not invested in him as character very much, so his self sacrifice doesn't hit hard.
@@lotemnahshony-spitz9532 I will say that this part of the story gives us (or at least, it gave me) that emotional investment in his character.
Still, I would have preferred the Doctor or one of her companions to detonate the bomb. Then again, I think Jodie deserves at _least_ one more season before she regenerates.
It'd work if his character was given actual screen-time and character development, without that it feels like a cop out
I'm only halfway through your review and I want to say thank you for providing such a balanced reviews without the obvious gender and racial bias that other people are bringing to the Timeless children and the changes to Doctor Who in general . I've been a fan since Tom Baker and my interest goes back as far as Jon Pertwee and the second Doctor Who. Whst I've always loved about the Doctor Who concept is the idea that the Regeneration could give you anything or anyone, not just a white male.
I love that the BBC's actually embracing this idea and moving forward with that despite those who don't want to see any real change. Everything you said about changes so far represent what I thought about the episode so far.
I'm actually looking forward to the possibilities and hope they really explored them in the manner that you are describing.
Final thought, I think we did meet Dr Who's mother during final episodes of the previous regeneration.
I love the Cyber-Geoff and Cyber-Steve sketches. They're pure comedy gold. Please continue them in the future for future reviews, a Cyberrama or Cybermania where you review every Cyberman story just like Dalekcember (please consider that) or even for fun a spinoff mini series on your channel featuring the adventures of Geoff and Steve throughout multiple Cyberman stories. What do you think?
MrTARDISreviews should make a miniseries with them lol
Cyber-Geoff-er, I mean Cyber-Jeff and Cyber-Steve are a treasure. If Mr. TARDIS does a month dedicated to reviewing Cyberman stories, he absolutely should bring back that bit.
My favourite thing about the people who make dozens of videos complaining about the Time Lords being able to change skin colour is that none of their "I'm not racist, I just..." excuses make them look any less pathetic or their reactions any less childish and over-dramatic
If they get this mad finding out that Time Lord society was built on a bunch of lies about how important and special they are, just wait until they hear about the history of Western civilisation
9:03 I'm dying 😂
Regarding Ashad, part of me thinks that the Doctor should have beaten him, not the Master. We have a really interesting (to me at least) Doctor/villain relation, when Ashad shows up in "Haunting", has an initial confrontation with her, pretty much wins that round by getting the Cyberium wich motivates the Doctor to fix her mess leading to "Ascention", where she wants to "stop him for good this time". We then have another awesome confrontation on the Cyber ship, and that's it. They never meet again, and Ashad is killed by the Master. It really feels like that Doctor/villain dynamic went nowhere, and given that the Master is beaten by Ko Sharmus' sacrifice, having the Doctor beat Ashad would have given her more to do
The people who are saying the show is dead, don't watch the classic series, don't buy the merchandise and are playing their hatred up for their audience most of whom didn't like the idea of a female doctor to being with.
For me, the beauty of series 11 and series 12 as an all is that they gave us (after all these years of waiting) a proper series 27: a solid and direct bridge between *_"Classic Who"_* and *_"NuWho"_* , both in prospective with the character of the Doctor (in my opinion, the *7th Doctor* and the *13th Doctor* are much more similar with each other than any other incarnations - expecially because of their use of a facade as a disguise from the rest of the people) and the vibe of the stories of that late era.
What I really loved about this establisment regarding the origins of the Doctor and his/her involvement with the Divison (surely another name for the Celestial Intervention Agency) it's not just the fact the *7th Doctor* has an established lore behind his mysterious words about being _«much more than a simple Time Lord»_ (while speaking with Davros), but also because it connected so many relevant points from the other series.
In the first story of series 25 (I'm talking, of course, of _"Remembrance of the Daleks"_ ) the *7th Doctor* recovered the *_Hand of Omega_* from Earth, in the year 1963 (a couple of weeks after the *1th Doctor* and *Susan* left in the Tardis with the company of *Ian* and *Barbara* aboard), on behalf of the Time Lords; and in this same story he explicitly said to *Ace* this mission was the main reason why he reached our blue planet with the company of his granddaughter in the first place.
Not to mention that, technically, the *7th Doctor* was nominated by the Time Lords as a champion for serving them in the defence of Gallifrey (the _"Oncoming Storm"_ , referred in both series 25 and series 26); and guess who we discovered were used to erase the memories of the Doctor through time to time..? The Time Lords.
Then, after the *7th Doctor* , all of that has never been referenced again, just like the subsequent incarnations of the Doctor...forgot about it. How strange...
A big coincidence..?
Looking at what Chibnall resurrected with _"The Timeless Children"_ directly from *_"Classic Who"_* , I'm confident to say this is not the case, not anymore..!
Chibnall's run has borrowed a lot more from Classic Who than past revival runs and as a huge McCoy fan I appreciate the adding onto some of the mysterious elements of his run.
@@benw4409 I'm a huge McCoy fan too, and that's why I appreciated all those connections with his incarnation of the Doctor: as I wrote, in my mind series 11 and series 12 as an all are the series 27 I've always waited to see on screen, and finally I was pleased with that wish..!
Did... did you miss the part where Hell Bent states the hybrid isn't why he left, but what he *lied* about because it's what the Time Lords would want to hear?
Nope, I remember.
But that's contradicted with 'Heaven Sent' where he has to confess truths and cannot lie and one of his confessions is that the reasons he left Gallifrey was because he was scared of the hybrid.
@@MrTARDIS At no point is it ever stated that he left Gallifrey because he was scared of the hybrid. In his first confession relating to it he says he ran because he was scared - but never tells them *why* he was scared. Then the next time he just starts talking about the hybrid, but never mentions that's why he left. He says he's afraid of the idea of the hybrid (never that he even actually believes it or cares about it). Hell Bent never contradicts what he says in Heaven Sent. He was scared, but we don't know why, the Time Lords being the Time Lords just instantly assumes it's the hybrid because that's what he leads them to believe when he starts talking about it later on.
@@LuckeMasse I’d just like to preface this by saying I like “Hell Bent” overall, and your argument would hold water if it wasn’t for the narrative gimmick of the “mind palace”: where we see the Doctor on his own (we are the only ones who can see inside his head; he’s no longer performing for anyone) struggling with whether or not he should tell them about the Hybrid.
Although, you could argue that the Doctor was just being extra careful as Time Lords are telepathic and may have read his thoughts. However, this is never stated on screen and is a little too much stratagem for a family audience to infer on their own.
My Ranking:
1. Ascension of the Cybermen
2. Fugitive of the Judoon
3. The Haunting of Villa Diodati
4. The Timeless Children
5. Spyfall: Part Two
6. Spyfall, Part One
7. Nikola Tesla’s Night of Terror
8. Can You Hear Me?
9. Orphan 55
10. Praxeus
I absolutely respect peoples opinion on The Timeless Children I understand people will hate it because of the Timeless Child reveal, I personally don't mind it, it wont change my thoughts on the shows entire lore and I personally don't think it retcons the shows history but I respect and understand why alot of fans will think that way and will not say they are wrong nobody is wrong or right in this at the end of the day its an opinion.
We all love Doctor Who and I will NEVER stop watching it!
is it bad that i want doctor who to only do cybermen episodes now because i love cyber jeff and cyber steve so much??
Wouldn't it be pretty cool if the portal the doctor fell through was just Gallifrey from the future
The same thought occurred to me.
I think the Division is implied to have existed in Time Lord society while non-interference was official policy . Agents have their memories wiped so they believe they are just renegades who don't want to stick to the non-interference policy because of personal reasons, allowing the Time Lord politicians to officially condone their actions. Time Lords can't officially interfere with the universe, so they secretly create agents who interfere without official sanction.
Personally, I didn't like the reveal because it made The Doctor more.. well. special than she should need to be. The Doctor was always a genius, alien demi-god, but that wasn't what made The Doctor special. That's just standard for being a Time Lord. The Doctor was special because they were noble and selfless and good, something they learnt over the course of the First Doctor's series. We never needed some grand revelation about the Doctor being more important than anyone else on their home planet. The reason he is able to scare the crap out of the aliens in The Eleventh Hour is because he's put the time in and done so much, often by the skin of his teeth. And now we find out he wasn't just another Time Lord with a noble soul and a rebellious streak, but was special form the beginning. That The Doctor was the foundation on which all of Time Lord society was built upon. Honestly, I know it's a bit tasteless, but I can't help think "We finally have a female Doctor and what do you do? You make her into a Mary Sue. What the hell?" Besides, now apparently The Doctor was never a renegade rebel, but a part of a secret organisation and was always, unofficially, just doing their job in Time Lord society. So.. yeah..
But, correct me if I'm wrong, but at no point does the Matrix actually say The Timeless Child became The Doctor. We learn the Timeless (actually Deathless, but whatever) Child became the genetic template for all of Time lord kind. Then The Master states the Timeless Child became the Doctor. The Doctor questions it, the Master says it's true, about how much he hates the fact that part of The Doctor was inside him. The Doctor asks to see the rest of the history. We see the memories of the Timeless Child being told about the Division. Then the Matrix cuts out. The only "proof" we have that this could be The Doctor is that The Timeless Child seemed to join the "Division," who seem to act in the universe as The Doctor does, but presumably they had other agents, and The Doctor could easily have not been one of them, going rogue outside of the control of even the secret "Division."
Really, we have no reason to assume that The Doctor is the Timeless Child, beyond it being her show and she's the protagonist and everything.
Honestly, I was kinda hoping The Timeless Child would have been the setup for the eventual return of Omega. The "Timeless Child" isn't really timeless, but deathless, and regeneration isn't what made them lords of time. Their mastery of time travel, of TARDISs, is what made them TIME Lords. If the Timeless Child was Omega, and he then went on to help invent time travel, perhaps through some innate understanding of time that passed on to the Time Lords when they incorporated regeneration into themselves, it would make sense why he was the "Timeless Child". Tying regeneration and time travel together would also explain why River Song had regeneration, when she's human and had no genetic engineering done, as far as I recall.
Of course, you need to explain Ruth-Doctor, but I imagined her being an alternate timeline version of 13. Gallifrey is both destroyed and perfectly fine. Paradoxes and conflicting timelines are running wild. Time is falling apart at the seams. All because the most impossible anomaly in all of space and time is returning to the universe. The Timeless Child. The greatest Time Lord, who all Time Lord-kind came from. He who created the technology that allowed Gallifreyans to become Masters of Time. He who was the first Time Lord, and will outlive all of the others. The alpha and the Omega.
19:53 - 20:11
That sums it all up perfectly. Well put. Wholeheartedly agree.
"I am no longer Geoff. I am... Jeff"
I think making the Morbius Doctors official is a great way to honour the classic series. Also a lot of people seem to think the Master being the Timeless Child would be better. Completely disagree. The Master’s desperation to extend his lives really drives his character. It would then be hey ho you didn’t have to go around all crispy in The Deadly Assassin, or steal Nyssa’s father’s body or try to steal the Doctor’s in the TV movie. We know that the Tine Lords resurrected the Master to fight in the Tine War and gave him a new cycle of lives anyway. My only wish for next series is to cut at least one companion because the Thirteenth Doctor needs to be given room to be more heroic.
15:29 Another very fine Bowlestrek joke. You've made my day with that joke and this review overall Trillbee. Be proud of yourself. Give that man child a piece of your mind. Your the true Whovian here and probably more than anyone.
Your little Cyber skits need to come back every time there's a Cyberman story, they're solid.
Here’s my LONG theory regarding the Timeless Child, the Morbius Doctors and Ruth;
Rewatching the Division scene, I think the Gat looking woman was about to announce the foundation of the CIA. My personal theory is the Child was enlisted as their number one operative, which makes sense since the Child has no DNA match within this universe and is immortal.
The Child carried out thousands of missions for the CIA and the Morbius Doctors are a result of the Child’s many years of service. This, in my opinion, lends itself to several potential storylines of the Doctor encountering a version of the Child while it was CIA operative. At some point, I’m going to assume that the Time Lords converted the Child into a bog standard Gallifreyan to keep what they had done hidden from the growing universe.
The now converted Child would, of course, go on to become the Doctor. This also explains why the Time Lords took such a disliking to the Doctor going off to explore the universe, imagine if she found out who she was, or figured out a way to unlock her infinite regenerative abilities.
Now, as for Ruth? My hope is she is Doctor 2.5. When the Time Lords forced Troughton to regenerate, they decided to use her to their own needs for whatever reason and Ruth became their number one operative yet again. This regeneration didn’t count as a life by the Time Lords themselves as it wasn’t a life, Ruth wasn’t her own person, she was a weapon
A kind hearted Time Lord called Lee would eventually rescue her from the Time Lords, steal her old TARDIS back and flee to Earth, hiding her in the process. Gat was sent to find her and, due to her travelling through time to track her down, Gat is unaware of Gallifrey’s destruction in Fugitive.
My guess is that Ruth will return and the story will tie her story to the beginning of Pertwee’s first story, falling out the of TARDIS after regenerating.
That could actually work to bad they won't do it
What I want to know is, how did the Master destroy Gallifrey? Its been nagging at me since Spyfall part 2
I feel like I’m the only person in the whole wide world who really liked this finale, as it brings up genuinely interesting questions for future series and especially the 60th anniversary special.
The whole fanbase will kill me for this opinion, but honestly, I don’t care anymore. I’ve had enough hiding from toxicity.
Too many adults forgetting its a show made for kids.
No need to hide behind a sofa from them.
New Doctors i find takes a while to appreciate for their take on the character.
The saddest part about this supposedly canon destroy thing with the Timeless Child is how easily it can be retconned out of existence.
Think about it what actual evidence is there that the Doctor is the timeless child:
The Rags telling her about the Timeless Child in 'The Ghost Monument' - easily can be retconned as the rags never suggest that she is the timeless child and that it is just a secret hidden from her
The Nightmare shown to her in 'Can You Hear Me?' - Its a dream, people dream weird stuff.
The sights scene in the Matrix in this episode - The Matrix was set up to show her The Timeless Child, and also showed her Brenden. There was no outright confirmation of the Matrix that the Doctor and the Timeless Child were one and the same.
The 'Division' which the Timeless Child worked for - Can easily be implied that both the Timeless Child and the Doctor both worked for the same organisation
The vision's of Brendan originally seen in 'Ascension of the Cybermen' and then confirmed to be the Doctor's visions in this episode - These were the files put into the Matrix which were going through the Doctor's head as vision's BUT they could easily have been put into the Doctor's head by the Master by their supposed psychic link.
The Master telling her she's the Timeless Child - The master at various points in the shows history has outright lied and manipulated the Doctor. Making the Doctor have an existential crisis was his plan, of course he would lie.
--
Point is the moment Chibnal is gone, this getting retconned. There is to much evidence to the contrary that the Doctor is in fact NOT the Timeless Child that it is a laughable suggestion.
Ehh, prefer Hell bent to the Timeless Children. Hell Bent had a point, this didn't.
This had a point.
Hell bent didn’t really have a point
The doctor showed up
Sent Rassilon away (which we’ve never heard about since)
Brought back Clara which ruined her death
Killed a guy
Ran away
Said the hybrid didn’t actually mean anything
Roll the credits
I prefer Hell Bent to a lot of finales. It's one of my favourites, but this one was good too.
Yep, a point and emotional stakes and a resolution which comes at a cost and...yeah, why do people get all "bent" out of shape about that story?
@@apexa903 all of this
People keep questioning River Song's existence, it won't be explained, but my idea is that the boundary from whence she came was in itself a Time Vortex.
So great to see a rational, balanced and thought out review for once instead of the usual ‘all bad’ or ‘all good’ review
MisterTARDIS: I want to see how the Time Lords became non-interventionist.
Me: Pretty sure that's a story that's about the Minyans from Minyos (Underworld, 1978).
@Kaagh178 Oh... Well, as with all Bob Baker/Dave Martin scripts, it's got a lot of wild, fun ideas in it. But even if the BBC had burnt episodes 2-4, with only the pretty great part 1 remaining... and did nifty animated recons by now... It still wouldn't be considered a classic. 😌😏
But a prequel epic 3 or 4 part something about the Time Lords discovering their injustice in intervention would make an awesome BF event.
Hm, I was really expecting you to comment what this revelation means for The Doctor as a character. I love The Doctor as a character because of the mystery, the values, and heroism. The Doctor could be seen in anyone because at the end of the day The Doctor is The Doctor because of his/her actions. But to now know The Doctor was special from the beginning because he/she is literally the reason Timelords exist kinda goes against what originally makes The Doctor special to me...
I do think Ryan not almost shooting Graham in the Cyber suit was a mistake.
I just felt like the problem was that there was no change, she got the info and a scene away it didn't effect her actions
My personal answers to the Ruth questions are:
1) The Doctor was her code name under the Division, it's one of her few memories from before the mind wipe and thus invented a reason for it.
2) It is the same TARDIS, it was taken in for repairs, the Chameleon arc doesn't work after all, so it was reset without being repaired fully. The Doctor stole the same TARDIS in the Hartnell incarnation, maybe it used its psychic powers to will him in to taking her so it is the same TARDIS. Just my theory.
I mean this makes a lot of sense especially because the TARDIS did say that she "stole him" so maybe the TARDIS had gained such an attachment to "The Doctor" that it decided to join him on his adventures
I bet you this gets changed to be the backstory for The Master. Hear me out.
The Master, thanks to the events of End of Time, has been tortured and abused by the Time Lords all their lives. Driven mad by the drum beat sound that fills their heads. The Master has died many times, concocted various schemes to regain life or keep living. Add in the Timeless Child story and it's just one more thing the Time Lords did to The Master as their favorite target of abuse.
This would give a ton of retroactive meaning to The Master seeking immortality, power, and their desire to burn everything down. Even if they don't remember, everything was stolen from them and they were abused, driven into the ground.
It also explains why the sudden shift from Missy/The Lumiat back to being evil and psychotic happened. They learn the story of the Timeless Child and go mad from the revelation. But there's a nagging at the back of their thoughts, that somehow this truth with also still a lie. A lie told as yet one more cruel joke on the Master and as a way for the Time Lords to try and steer the Master's rage away from them.
Turns out, this was correct. While the Timeless Child was indeed able to regenerate without end, the truth is that the Timeless Child was the Master. When regeneration was being spliced into Shebogan genetics, the first few attempts failed. But using a small bit of genes from one Shebogan made the splicing stable and this laid the groundwork for the altering of Shebogans into Time Lords and the continued practice used by countless generations of Time Lords. The Shebogan who's genetics made it stable turned out to be the one who would become the Doctor. You could even have this pre-Doctor Shebogan still be part of The Division. But make them an unwilling, hesitant member. Intervention being sometimes necessary but not to serve Time Lord interests. Have them express dislike for how regeneration came about, what they did. Be the only one or one of a few openly challenging the Time Lords on their methods. With the mounting tensions, concern for their life, and guilt of association driving this pre-Doctor person to force the Time Lord transformation on themselves, again, in efforts to forget or get away from it all.
This still gives the Master the "there's a bit of you in me" line, the anger over the lie about their history, and reasons for all the messed up things the Master has done.
It also preserves the Doctor as we knew the character before the reveal. Someone who never felt fully at home with their own people.
I think that's where it will end up. So it all technically remains Canon, but adds something to the show other than yet more Time Lord cruelty.
In my honest opinion, I don't believe that Doctor Who is dead. It's still got a ways to go.
Thanks to the Timeless Children, It now has even more possibilities, whether on TV or in other media. This episode wasn't a masterpiece - I doubt we'll ever see one from Chris Chibnall - but it certainly helped to breathe new air into the mythology.
I do see your point with ashads death. But I must admit. I like how easily and quickly he was killed. Like he was edge of seat dangerous and scary. But the mashed being so off the wall as he is and just killing him so easily just makes him even more scary. Like the “you think he’s bad? Take a look at this guy” sort of thing.
You're absolutely correct in the context of THIS story. However, this is the 3rd Cyberman appearance in a row that has been superceded by the Master.
In that context, it's disappointing.
Arguments about the changing of skin colour during regeneration have no ground. Regeneration resulting in a skin colour change has been established for years, with the Regeneration of Melody/River in Series 6's "Let's Kill Hitler", and again with the Regeneration of The General in Series 9's "Hell Bent". This isn't new.
It's only part of BBCs diversity plan and so so obvious. They have to overcome 13 male white doctors, so they introduce how many female and non-white persons into the show to balance that out? This is the thing that hurts. Turning a loved and widely accepted show into a container to only follow an agenda. Nothing that has been done, was to entertain or to support a good story. First there was the agenda, and everything had to follow that rule, even if it produces bad stories bad ratings. It's their moral duty to kill the show.
Personally, I’ve always thought that hartnell’s doctor was not the first doctor, I’ve been thinking about that for about 10 years now, I like this change, I like this episode, i don’t think it’s on the level of spyfall (both parts) fugitive of the judoon (which is still my favourite episode of the series) Nikolai Tesla’s night of terror, the haunting of villa diodati, and even ascension of the cybermen, I like this episode, I would give it a 7 out of 10.
Spyfall part 1 - 9
Spyfall part 2 - 8
Orphan 55 - 5
Nikola Tesla’s night of terror - 8
Fugitive of the judoon - 10
Praxeus - 6
Can you hear me? - 6
The haunting of villa diodati - 10
Ascension of the cybermen - 8
The timeless children - 7
Sure this series is better then the previous series and this series finale is better then previous, there are good bits within this episode alone. But thing that annoying me with this episode is makes no sense, like now the doctor has unlimited regenerations so making time of the doctor redundant as in the story he was meant to have been on his last body.
It's fun to speculate about lore and so on, but I can't help but keep thinking about Ashad. I think at this point that's the epitome of wasted potential. Ashad had a great opening, a cool look and presence, and stood out from his fellow Cybermen. And then he was tossed just like that. I think I would have preferred him to being a reoccurring villain, at least for Jodie's era. It really is a shame.
"You can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig." Sure, a few people will find lipstick on a pig interesting. Heck, they can get even more excited about ALL the AMAZING colors of lipstick they can put on the pig! And, just imagine how much more AMAZING it would be to give a pig a bow or slippers, or even (do we dare???) a magic wand! SQUEALZ! Endless possibilities!! Sorry, truth is, while a few will find this interesting the rest of us see the pig for what it is, a pig.
To be fair I’d love to see a pig waddling about with lipstick on.
My argument against your argument of the Doctor not changing is that it fundamentally does change the Doctor, she has found out that a majority of her life has been a lie and she doesn't know what she is anymore. She knows she is the Doctor and what that means but where did she come from? Why is she here? Is there anything else like here out there? She has a lot more to learn about herself now and has a lot of narrative potential for her character. I think we haven't seen the full effects of the Timeless Child on her yet, it's going to shift parts of her identity
Exactly. And the viewing public has now found out it was a lie, and guess what, they're no longer viewing any more. That's a big difference between this and previous plot twists that were quietly forgotten. The public simply didn't care about those things. They didn't grab the imagination of viewers and writers, and they were dropped. This is different. This is an unforgettable object of derision that will leave a bad taste for years to come, and ratings might never recover.
@@PaulTaylor1 Give me an example as to how it's a negative effect on the series... you're just stating your opinion but are giving no data to back it up. Why would the viewing public be stop watching a TV show when the narrative potential is so ripe right now?
You realize that TV is dead right and a majority of the views for Doctor Who arent on the tele
@@captainawesome0711 here you are. Less than a million viewers picked it up online after broadcast. Combine those with the ones who did watch it as broadcast TV and you still get the lowest figures of any episode of Nu Who. www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/doctor-who-series-12-2020-uk-ratings-accumulator-91601.htm
@@PaulTaylor1 Fam, i know for a fact my viewing figures arent picked up by that because I purchase the episodes on Amazon, there's lots of ways to view the show not on Iplayer. The BBC will never cancel Doctor Who, it's the only cultural export the own the rights to. Just be an adult and accept that the show has changed
@@captainawesome0711 so, given the actual data, perhaps you can answer your own question. Why would viewers stop watching such a supposedly exciting storyline? You tell me - why DID they stop watching?
That Geoff bit was better than the whole episode
I think Jodie's really starting to differentiate herself from other Doctors. I can't see any other Doctors violently shoving the Master down like that. With Series 12, I think I'm starting to get her.
She has this front of being a quirky, awkward lady but that's really just hiding her darker side. She wants a family in the form of the "fam" but she isn't quite ready to tell them about herself, which leads to drama about whether they can really trust her.
This could never have been a final stand for the Thirteenth Doctor, since it was about bringing down the regenerateable Cyberman. If the Doctor would be able to regenerate after triggering the weapon, then so would the Cyberman and the entire plan would have been pretty pointless to begin with.
I heard they're making a Christmas special called Revolution of the Daleks, and if that is so, I'd want there to be a Dalek civil war that would be between the New series Daleks vs. the classic series Daleks. That would be so awesome!
Well, "Revolution" is in the title, and considering what was seen during filming on the Clifton Bridge, there might be something going on between the Daleks.
Davros vs Dalek Emperor?
@@calumbishop7082 I think it's gonna be more Time War Daleks vs Recon Scout Daleks.
it doesnt change the 13th doctor, but it changes the rest of them, 11: "No more regenerations, no tricks up my sleeve" but was granted extras by a crack, he had to be gifted the ex machina to regenerate out of his aging, he wouldnt have had to wait for that to take out the dalek ships then later turn into 12, River Song wouldn't have had to give 12 her regeneration energy to save him from the poison, it makes every time the doctor expends regeneration energy to heal someone else go from a priceless gift into being something he could have done whenever, because now the doctor himself is the font of regeneration energy...
Others have suggested that the Master should have been the Timeless Child, now that'd have been worth consideration, The Master is unhappy with time lords too, This would explain his more evil nature, the Time Lords were experimenting on him to find out what of his genes gave him the power to not die, and were exploiting that, and obviously, that would piss him off, this of course includes the doctor because he's a time lord, one of the people who have stolen from his font of regeneration energy, That crack that saved 11, that could have been Missy, when she was being good for a time (or pretending to or whatever), giving him that energy willingly, that way she could still have 'her friend' and wouldn't be alone
Couldn't have said it better myself!
"Graham gets that great scene" where he tells the audience why Yaz is a great character we promise
Hey, a shoddily conceived scene can still be a well executed and acted scene.
@@MrTARDIS no fault on the acting, they're both excellent and compelling but also its transparently an attempt to stop people complaining about Yaz being boring without actually dealing with her being boring
Wasn't really crazy on Sacha/Master here. It got a bit too ham for my liking.
Curse that SPACE WIZARDS clip. I don't even think it's being used for what Patrick may have intended anymore.
We didn't really need to know what the Dalek/Time Lord hybrids were really capable of in S9 cause they were defeated pretty soon after. Here the the Cybies get the build up and then basically do nothing for the rest of the runtime so I'd sati's more egregious.
I don't get why someone would redact the stuff about the Division but not the stuff about the Timeless Child period.
Did the Hybrid business not have some character stuff relating to the Doctor and Clara's relationship? And didn't Heaven Sent only happen because of the Hybrid thing? I feel like that's something worth calculating into this equation.
The Doctor didn't know where Gallifrey was after it was brought back in Day of the Doctor. That's part of why he wasn't in a hurry to go visit them. And after Hell Bent happens I'd imagine that going back there wasn't gonna be the best move.
The Timeless Child could have been Susan. The Timeless Child SHOULD have been Susan. It's the Doctor's duty to hide Susan and hence why he took her and ran away (maybe tricking himself to believing he is her grandfather).
I would have loved to see more with Ashad. Maybe a prequel where he is still human, or maybe a story where he is reduced to what organics still exist.
It sounds like Yaz will be the only companion left after Christmas so maybe you'll get your wish with a smaller cast.
Brenden was pointless as was his story unless that was meant as one of the Division Doctor missions.
It could be that the entity that is the Doctor didn't become the Doctor (adopt that identity) until Hartnell leaves Galifrey with Susan. And Ruth Doctor is somehow the doctor between Troughton and Pertwee.
I'm surprised there was no complaint about the Master's continuous relationship with the Cybermen. This being the THIRD finale which involves such teamup. Though my question is, can regeneration fix a cybersuit?
I must say though that this still supports the theory that this Master is before Missy. Considering that number 1, he shares the same madness as Simm's Master but not so much as Missy, and number 2, I could see the progression where the Master tried to make Cybermen out of his own race (here) but it will hurt the Doctor more to later make Cybermen out of dead humanity, like Missy did with many of the dead human, implying that Amy, Rory (as well as other now deceased companions), and explicitly having the Brigadier becoming one.
I wish the timeless child was the Master, if it has to exist at all
Theory: the 12 regeneration limit, non-interference law and the doctor's mindwipe and return to childhood were all imposed at the same time by Rassilon because the timelords were getting to big for themselves due to their immortality corrupting them (though Rassilon probably didn't impose the limit on himself since he felt that as leader he should be immortal). All timelords that had lived more than 13 incarnations were made to forget their previous lives with some being returned to childhood including the Doctor.
Poor Jeff...long live Geoff
I love this review, great job man!
*grabs popcorn*
Just kidding, I thought it was mixed. My problems are everything BUT the twist. The Cybermen were shafted again, the companions' plotline was pointless and there was too much exposition resulting in a rushed ending. But the twist and the change in canon? No problem. As long as Chibnall actually expands on that and doesn't just brush it aside due to fan backlash.
@BreeinMaryland Exactly. I was really ticked off at that. He could've been such a great recurring threat.
If you think about it... maybe the Doctor could've always regenerated beyond 13 lives... He was using regenerative energy as 11... meaning he could still use it... maybe whatever the Timelords gave him on Trenzalore was like... a placebo?
Btw, I'm really torn about this episode. Part of me thinks there's a lot of potential in it. Part of me wants all of Chibnall's era to be a bad dream the 12th Doctor is having before death. Part of me doesn't care about the show anymore. Part of me wants to see what happens next.
Honestly, a big part of me really thinks the show needs an ending, but that's a whole other can of worms.
Perhaps the Timeless Child/Doctor had its maximum number of lives set to 13 too, given that the TC's regeneration genes were spliced into the Shobogan genome. Anything Tecteun devised to modify those genes so they'd only produce twelve regenerations could, presumably, be applied to the very same genes in the Doctor's body. Presumably, this "gene therapy" technique could be used to re-set the bodily clock, allowing senior Time Lords to grant further regeneration cycles where they see fit - as we've seen in the past.
A: While the Cartmel Masterplan(TM) never came to fruition, anyone biting their nails over continuity can't really walk back 7 saying outright, off-hand, to himself, in front of Ace, and with no reason to lie to or deceive her or anyone in earshot, that he was around at the same time as and worked with Omega.
B, not retcon related but related to the retcon: It sounded umambiguous to me but did I misinterpret some lines implying that Tecteun, either deliberately or negligently, caused the death of her adopted child at least some amount of times during her experiments?
I admit my lack of knowledge but how many regenerations did the Master have? I thought it was at least three or four in the 60-80s run of shows. Then there were at least 5 in the newer seasons. Did the Master hit 13?
He reached the end of his 13th in The Deadly Assassin, but then took over the body Tremas in the Keeper of Traken which he kept for the rest of the classic series. I can’t remember the circumstances of him coming back in the new series though, whether he got a new life cycle or not
The Master used up most of his regenerations offscreen before we initially met him. The OG Master from the 3rd Doctor’s era was one of his final incarnations, with the “Crispy” Master from two 4th Doctor serials explicitly being his last.
He researched ways to cheat his impending death by possessing others’ bodies. Which he did twice in a row using two different techniques (the 80s Master, and the 90s TV movie Master). As such, they weren’t “regenerations” at all. The bodies he stole weren’t even Gallifreyan, so couldn’t. Although they WERE compatible enough to be “granted” regenerations, which inspired schemes. Alas, the TV movie ends with him getting chucked into a black hole.
His return in nuWho explains that the Time Lords fished him out of it & gave him a fresh Gallifreyan body during the Time War cuz his villainous qualities made him a great secret weapon. So Spy Master is #4 or so of a new set of 13, of which Professor Yana was one of the 1st. That said; nuWho Master has continued to play as fast and loose with their mortality as ever (refusing to regenerate as Saxon, having regeneration cancelled as Missy, getting “sealed in a gold tooth”) so it’s possible that the final tally has been reset or negated or extended or otherwise screwed inside out.
I don't care about it "ruining canon" it really didn't do that much
After all the constantly hilarious Bowlestrek jokes, perhaps you make a discussion video about why he's always wrong, not a true fan and a disgrace to what's right in the world. Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration but hope your understand. He hardly qualifies as a critic or fan. Same applies to Nerdrotic too.
They're just anti-SJW campaigners preaching to a largely like-minded choir, and they'll pick on any target if it suits their agenda. They pass themselves off as fans, when the only things they're fanning are the flames of division and hatred, which is totally at odds with the ethos of Doctor Who.
Preach!!
Well, Bowlestrek clearly is a racist, his comments on Demons of the Punjab kind of clearly indicate that and the problem is that when you condense down the primary criticisms of Bowlestrek, Nerdrotic, ClownFish etc, it comes down to little more than them endlessly complaining "look, diversity casting, the world has ended!"
However, there's an awful lot wrong with this finale, so many poor plot points, bad ideas, contrived situations and out of nowhere plot resolvers that have nothing to do with 'diversity casting' that it's both seriously painful and yet hilarious to watch, it's a genuinely bad episode. But those three people hardly touch on those particular problems, instead harping on about their issues with perceived gender and identity politics in the show. So that's what makes them bad.
Likewise, MrTardis here doesn't really address those serious flaws either, well not in my opinion anyway :)
The regenerating Daleks vs The regenerating Cybermen..?
I do actually agree with... literally everything you say in this review! The Timeless Child reveal is interesting but as of right now is inconsequential (which if you ask me the real problem with the reveal), one the companions sacrificing themselves would've been a lot more impactful than Ko Sharmas, and Sacha Dhawan as the Master is terrific.
The biggest crime of this episode is how the Ashad/Lone Cyberman arc goes nowhere! As you point out Ashad was a breath of fresh air but he is killed off so unceremoniously that he come across a really elaborately set-up deus ex machina! A Cyberman with emotions is a concept that could've been explored so much further but is just wasted here unfortunately!
I do have to agree though with one point a lot of detractors of the Timeless Child reveal bring up; that it should've been the Master! As others in this comment section have brought up, it would explain how the character keeps coming back and his endless rage as he was lied to his entire life!
As of right now, let's see how the Timeless Child arc plays out. We've still got at least one more season with Jodie Whittaker and, unlike The Last Jedi (which people have been comparing this episode to), it will be helmed by the same person as the pervious two in Chris Chibnall. The Timeless Child was even established in Whittaker's second ever episode, so he clearly has a plan on where he wants this to go!
Overall, as you mention, The Timeless Children is a mixed bag but leaning on good!
Doctor Who is a television program on the television.
Maybe it was all set up for a Division series where we see the Doctor while they were emplyed by the Time Lords in the Division. (One can only hope for more Who content)
My irritation is more the fact that, once again the timelords have been taken out again. It irritated me because I think it's selfish, when future writers might want to do timelord stories but before doing that they have to find a way to bring them back yet again. I don't understand why so many writers are so against writing for a race that has so much potential, and if you don't want to write them, then just don't just write any stories with them in. It's not like the classic series had many stories where they were prominant , just don't right stories with them in. You don't have to keep destroying them to do that!
I absolutely agree. I heard that the reason why they keep wiping out the Time Lords is because the writers believe them to be nothing but stodgy, stuff shirts. What I say to that is this: they are if you write them that way. After Moffett brought them back from the Time War, he had the perfect opportunity to reinvent the Time Lords. He could have depicted them as a ravaged, battle scarred society desperate to survive at all cost. But he squandered it, and Chibnall just decided to junk it all. It's a crying shame.
3 biggest fucking sins that Chibnal did.
1. Cast a non dyspraxic as a dyspraxic.
2. erase Ryan's Dyspraxia.
3. forget about the companions.
This is the first video of your channel I saw and I really liked it. It's good to find more and more positive reviews about The Timeless Children on RUclips and your opinion about it is very interesting
About Hell Bent, if I remember correctly, there was always in Doctor Who many reasons that were given for why the Dooctor left Gallifrey. For me, I understood the Hybrid was just another reason to ad to the list. And not the definite and only reason. I also loved the performance of Cappaldi in this episode and the ending of Clara travelling through time and space in her own Tardis, but knowing she'll have to go back to her death eventually because it's a fixed point in time
I thought this was a genuinely good finale. It absolutely has issues, and you do hit it on the head with your criticisms, but I did enjoy the story, the way it handled the Cybermen and the Master (as much as I'd like the Cybermen to have their own story separate from the Master sometime, the dynamic here actually worked), and the final part was interesting. I'd rank it above slightly above The Wedding of River Song and The Name of the Doctor (I speak as someone who did genuinely enjoy both stories - The Wedding of River Song made me the most hyped I had ever been for Doctor Who after watching it for the first time), and it's miles above Hellbent and Death in Heaven.
As for the changes made to the Doctor's past... I think The Timeless Children has the right idea. It reveals previously unknown knowledge about the Doctor's past, but adds onto the mystery and the enigma. Where did the Doctor really come from? What were their true people like? Much like the Silence being hinted at in The Big Bang, I see this as a question that will be answered in the next season.
Ryan is objectively a better character than Yaz
Has anyone asked a question why did the timeless child go through so many regeneration
is there something nefarious that they haven't shown us yet
Did you not get that they were implying that the the woman was torturing the child to death over and over again to learn the secret of regeneration? They're not going to outright say that the Doctor, hero of a show that's supposed to be for all ages was tortured to death dozens of times by their mother figure. Howver it was all by said through the visuals.
And of course, the people who need to see this video, (Nerdrotic, Bowlestrek, etc) will never see it
They will but they'll just scream "MrTArdIS Is a SHilL PaID bY thE BbC!"
Then Hartnell was the first incarnation to CHOOSE the name ‘The Doctor’...?
I also don't get how the cybermen can tap into regeneration energy of dead timelords.
Simailar to dalekcember, during may perhaps, do Cybermay
They say cannon was broken they are the same that accept the 13th régénération and the time lords given 12 more ok
Personally, I'm not sure what to make of the Timeless Child revelation. I'd agree that it doesn't really change much, but therein lies the problem: what was the point if it changes nothing? This, like the hybrid (seriously, FUCK that episode, that series arc, all of it), will most likely never be mentioned again, and technically it shouldn't, since the only ones to know about this are the Doctor and the Master. And if you don't like the revelation, there are plenty of reasons to discard it, hell the episode doesn't even try to cover those holes. The matrix is a micro-universe, where the only logic is that there isn't any logic. Its perfectly reasonable to assume that the Master was just keeping the Doctor distracted while he was busy creating his Cyber-Time Lords. Or maybe the Master honestly believes the Doctor is the Timeless Child. What made him believe that the Child and the Doctor were the same person is anyone's guess, because we're not shown that. Aside from his word, we're shown nothing that suggests the two are the same. Even so, what better way to distract the Doctor than to throw this bombshell on her?
Lets be honest, this episode was the Master's time to shine. This is unquestionably HIS episode, and Sacha Dhawan is phenomenal as the Master. While I consider my Master to be John Simm (like everyone has their own Doctor) and Delgado IS the best Master (without question in my mind,) Sacha is giving them a bloody good run for their money. It definitely helps that you can tell Chibnall is a huge fan of the character aswell. Him manipulating of Ashad and enacting his own plan of creating a new race of Cyber-Masters is so intrinsic to who the character is, and its clear to me that Chibnall knows how to write the Master in a way that Moffat never did. The Masters dialogue with Ashad was something that was sorely missing from The Witches Familiar, and it annoys me that we never got to see Davros and Missy interact beyond "oh nice to meet you, I'll poke you in the eye." It wouldn't surprise me if Chibnall wanted to have another Davros story featuring the Master, just to enact on that missed opportunity.
15:35 Wow, looks like he's finally gone completely bonkers XD that cracked me up!
I'm watching these review videos as I watch the Jodie Whittaker era. They're good for context. Good insight.
To be honest I just chalked th eTimeliess Child thing up to Chibnall looking into the Other and the supposed Cartmel Master Plan that the Doctor was the thrid hidden wheel to Rasillon and Omega. In fact I hope this means we'll get a return for Omega since he would have actually been there.
I don't get why the additions to the lore need to change anything. The entire point of the Timeless Children is the Doctor coming to the conclusion that none of it really matters. "It's messy it's contradictory, it's absurd, it's strange, it's really confusing, but it's Doctor Who." That is basically what this episode is saying on a thematic level
I can see what you mean about the fact it doesn't contradict anything we already know. It also doesn't reveal the key question of the Doctors name too, and is giving us something we've waited for. The origins
Are you going to the Gag-dub Cybermen joke every time they show up?
great video review as always! i'm glad most of the influential whotubers are very level headed with taking this episode and embrase the show for what is, in terms of its ever changing nature. I think I forgive Hell Bent more than the fanbase does too but I really loved this finale, very interested to see where this takes the show. But i did say all this when Moffat took over so, we'll see I guess
I am pissed that Cpt Jack had no screen time w/ the Doctor.
Honestly i was in the "doctor who is ruined" camp but my mind has changed over time i completely agree with what you said about the cannon it is all over the place always has been and for all we know this could be retconed in the future like a lot of things in the past whilst im not the biggest fan of this era of who i still like some episodes and im looking forward to the new year special
The CyberMasters and Sacha's performance as the Master were the best things about this episode. Segun's CyberMasters theme is also my favourite track in the whole of Chibnall's era so far.
The reveals on the canon are....eh, its Doctor Who, canon changes a lot, I suppose. The Doctor as we know them still exists, so there we go.
I just had a listen to the new cyberman and cybermaster themes and damn they're menacing. I would really like to hear a combination of the 2006 motif and the new percussive motif. That'd be a theme to be reckoned with!
I think that explaining the backstory of the Doctor and the Gallifreyens makes them less interesting. Adding this Timeless Child stuff is a non reveal for me and I don't see why the Doctor cares, the reveal should have been that they'd done something messed up in their forgotten memories when they worked for the Division.
@@meris8486 That probably would have been the case, had the Matrix not erased most of the Division memories.
@@space1999 Did you even watch the episode? The CyberMasters can shoot, that's how we found out they could regenerate in the first place.
And the Time Lord collar works as a design choice.
@@space1999 Well I'm sorry if my opinion angers you, maybe I should just hop on the bandwagon and shit on Chibnall like everyone else
I was hoping that you would mention the brain of morbius footage being used in the matrix montage, I feel like I'm the only one who noticed it
I always thought those faces were Morbius' previous incarnations.
@@Silvertardis it was deliberately a bit ambiguous but if you watch it again, morbius is literally saying "how many lives have you had". This basically confirmed it.
Trilogy? There are 4 episodes in that story and all have barely any connection with each other.
Been waiting for your review. 🤚🏽 Nice one brother
The only thing about having a companion detonate the death particle is that the Doctor would never let them do it. The old guy convinces her with that "I started this" thing, like he out-doctored her in that moment. xD
I had nearly exactly the same reaction as you to this episode although I wasn’t surprised about the backlash
The first doctor remembered his name from the division. And the tardis he stole was the tardis he had earlier in the divisionn. The tardis was classified damaged because of use by division it was to be destroyed. The tardis then recognized the doctor and changed into the form the doctor worked with. Maybe the tardis was considered too self aware. Or the tardis is possessed by an entity who protects the doctor. The entity from where he came from when he was a girl falling trough the portal.
This is my theory
I still don't really know if I actually liked this big retcon. I like its daring nature, but I fear the backlash from other naysayer fans and wonder if it might bring the show down for the next 20 years or forever. Plus there's a bit of an issue, ie why was 11 apparently given new regeneration energy / a new cycle, The Doctor is now not really under threat anymore due to having infinite lives (though it just now occurrs to me that this could be solved with a personal crysis, ala 12: "I CAN'T KEEP ON BEING SOMEBODY ELSE!!". Maybe The Doctor ends up having a favourite which they never want to move on from, as in even worse than 10 did.).
One of my first thoughts was of the _other_ things we've seen regeneration energy used for. It's been used to heal with a touch and to send out blasts of destructive energy. Previously, there was a reluctance to use it like that because that would use up lives. But now? I don't know if we're going to be seeing a lot of healing hands or if we're just going to be ignoring it.
I still don't understand the point of regenerating cybermen. I mean, just shoot them while they're regenerating, daleks never had a problem with that in the time war
this new Canon stuff will be perfect for Spinn offs and prequels
That new theme for your intro really works!