Caller On The Left's White Privilege Issue
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- A caller calls TMR to talk about the issues of white privilege and the white working class. The Majority Report crew discusses.
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I'm a poor white man who's seen my share of police brutality and abuse of power against white people. I can admit that this is a big issue for white people while still admitting that it's an even bigger issue for black people whether they're poor or not. And when I go to a black lives matter protest I know what the protest is about. Just like if I go to a pro-choice protest I'm not gonna try to make it about pro choice and also cancer awareness.
That wasn't his point. He wanted to have examples of how the left is condescending to poor and working class whites, and how that turns people off. poor and working class whites have no privilege in their life. Having less of a disadvantage is not a privilege, so those people are very unlikely to accept that description, and thus migth be convinced by the right wing propaganda, with its easy messaging, and much less condescending tone.
He wasn't at the protest for poor white peoples sake, he was an allied, but even as an allied during the BLM protests, the left was condescending to him.
He was expecting that if he shows up for black people, black people would show up for him, not to be told, we don't care about you.
@@TheJonHolstein no the OP was right there is a time and place for everything. If I went to a protest about based on a woman that was raped I wouldn’t grab the mic and say “men get raped too”. That isn’t the time and place to talk about it. We all need to be emotionally mature enough to realize when it’s time to step back and our personal pain isn’t the most important thing in the world at the moment.
@@firefox1234ize that's not analogous. If you went to a rally like that and one of the speakers said "men who have been raped, you're not important right now" then that would be analogous. Do you think that is a good strategy for movement building?
@@terrorchode I didn’t say I agreed with that speakers rhetoric. I’m saying I as a man should not go to that kind of rally and expect a pity party. It’s not about MY pain and MY struggles no matter how bad I feel.
@@TheJonHolstein having less of a disadvantage is not a privilege? Are you for real? It's literally this ignorance and lack of empathy for marginalized people that makes you think that's true. But it's not. "Less of a disadvantage" = never had to be a slave! That counts as a fucking privilege to me. I was never taken away from my parents and shoved into an ethnic cleansing school! Also a privilege for me. Maybe your issue is that you can't see the exact privileges based on the disadvantage. It's not just that I wasn't a slave, it's that I had freedom, agency, wealth. I'm not racially profiled, therefore the privilege is safety. But hey, I know white people tend to think of these things as rights.
In the mid 70's I was busted twice for cultivation of cannabis, another grower that I knew in the same area was busted for his second time a couple weeks after I was busted. I received two months in a State Forestry work camp while my friend got ten years in the State Penitentiary, the only difference between our two cases was the color of our skin. That is what we are talking about when talk about white privileged.
I think people on the Left that would criticize how "white privilege" can be weaponized (on fringe occasion) will suggest that to leave it at that can imply that the issue is the discongruity instead of the oppressive nature of that law and the brutality of how it is enforced for any period of time. Essentially that shows that "privilege theory" can only be applicable in an analytic framework, but is flawed in that the solutions often aren't made obvious by privileges or studies revealing behavioral patterns of symbolic kinship
I think people on the Left that would criticize how "white privilege" can be weaponized (on fringe occasion) will suggest that to leave it at that can imply that the issue is the discongruity instead of the oppressive nature of that law and the brutality of how it is enforced for any period of time. Essentially that shows that "privilege theory" can only be applicable in an analytic framework, but is flawed in that the solutions often aren't made obvious by privileges or studies revealing behavioral patterns of symbolic kinship
@@EchoBravo370 I’m Mexican American born and raised in America I was the only one in college that was considered like me and now at work I feel the same way. Even in the army I was made fun off by a guy that made Indian noises at me. I like to think of my self as the one who made it and makes me a bit more proud of my achievements.
Thank you for sharing this. These kinds of real world examples/reminders are very important IMO. 🙏💖
@@badazzfeliciano
well what could a good lawyer point out in a case where the two individuals where in the same situation?
As a brown person... I honestly want happiness and security in every aspect for my white brothers and sisters or any other color for that matter. That being said this guy doesn’t understand that all that black and brown people fought for benefit his mom. As a matter of fact, the group that benefited from civic right movement was the white woman.
The guy’s feeling about his mom I feel for! I’m sorry he felt that way at the protests... but the actual issue is police brutality in all culture and ethnicity
Indeed. I think that he took the term "white privilege" and ran with it. I admit that I think that a better phrase can be used (see also: defund the police which a lot of people think is abolition of the police), but there are bad things that don't happen because of race when you are white. If the analogy for being born spoiled and unaware of it is "born on third and think you hit a triple," maybe being poor and white would be born on first at most.
@wvu05 well, I would argue that if people were actually interested in what a movement is about, they would take the time to actually learn more about it than simply believe what others tell them about it. Even your example of defund the police. The name of the movement isn't "abolish the police." It is "defund the police." A third grader could adequately describe what that statement means. Yet there are so many people in this country that choose to believe what they want to or what they have been told without actually stopping to think or independently research the topic. Another perfect example is critical race theory. Not a single republican can accurately define what it is or where it is taught because they don't know what it is. They are told what it is by bad faith actors and just run with it. At the end of the day, the problem lies with the average American voter and their inability to think critically.
@@DemonDante1000 So, what are you going to do about it? Are you going to sit and smug superiority and lose, or are you going to accept the reality that the vast majority of voters are casual observers _at best_ and try to figure out how to do actual messaging that gets things done?
@@wvu05 it’s hard to educated complicit ignorance when corporate media is telling the average Joe what to get mad at… or what “issues” should they be arguing about. It’s sad that people believe or take “face value” whose giving them the news. The real issues are homelessness, healthcare, education, policing, and wage gap. Those issues you NEVER see in the news media in an honest portrait! You’ll never hear the term “the working class”.
The best bet is to reach the people who are not listening to the corporate media, and let those who are already brainwashed believe what they believe. Believe it or not but they’re are only 20% of the population… and those are the voters! CRAZY! I did read it from a reliable source I just cannot think of the article 🤦🏽♀️ lol!
As a member of the Council of Blacks, I concur. The Black Caucus has also voted unanimously in favor of uplifting our white brothers and sisters.
This was an excellent conversation.
To add my two cents: I grew up with a dark skinned middle eastern father and a white mother.
I watched, constantly, as a child how the police in our suburban town treated my parents differently. It's worth noting that this occurred as we shifted our economic situation from poor, to middle class, to wealthy. No matter how wealthy we were, my father was always treated worse by police and the law than my mother.
I can see that being not only that your father is dark skinned, but also that he is a male. Males are looked at as being more of a threat to police across the board.
@@jamesbonn2394 well that has been my reality. Cops have always viewed me as more threatening than any female I’ve been with. This also explains the sentencing disparity between women and men, where men get a longer sentence for the same crime when compared to women.
@@trademisconception9816 I know more leftist women who have been assaulted by police than leftist men. I'm a woman who was assaulted by police. When police or Trump cultists look at me they see a white lady, until they learn my religion and then suddenly I'm not white anymore.
I am acutely aware that being seen as a white lady can be used to secure the safety of people who are not white in the face of police. I have served as a bodyguard, primarily for black women, but also for trans women and black men, for a few years. Part of what this entails is physically inserting myself between officers and those whose security I am responsible for. Because they may throw me to the ground and arrest me, but they will kill my black comrade dead in the street.
@@jamesbonn2394 It's just a statistical reality in terms of the majority of shootings and victims of excessive police violence. It's absolutely relevant
@@trademisconception9816 any female you've been with - are you talking about both white and black women?
I love how he projects the exact ego, that fuels the reason that the black woman at the rally said what she said about poor white people. It’s the “I’m white, and police arrested my law breaking family members, I don’t see a privilege” bs.😂😂😂 priceless
Also, once incident compared to state sanctioned gestapo tactics is ridiculous. He's a sensitive lad, and that's cool, but that should have opened his eyes instead of creating resentment.
@@phanatic215 unfortunately, he is just one of many people that think like him.
To be charitable to the caller: the implied solution if the study's results are valid is to teach the concept of white privilege in conjunction with the concept of class privilege, or having some sort of caveat that we're talking about one variable in a vacuum statistically shifting frequency distributions when reality is of course multifaceted. But of course in June 2020 the conversation of the moment was about race, in response to heinous racist crimes, so it was more important to center the racial privilege piece at the time.
@@Aries2890 Also strange to me because all the study says is that people are less sympathetic to poor white people. In comparison to feeling sympathetic for poor POC. Based on privilege. Sorry but is that wrong? Maybe people should feel equally sympathetic towards all poor people but context matters, and it's a good thing that people can understand privilege.
Well when a poor White person and a poor Black person get pulled over, there is proven White privilege that will benefit them in that situation. That is just 1 example where despite class, Black people will face greater harm in discrimination.
Exactly. I'm glad to see there's a bit more charitability in the comments than there seemed to me to be in the actual phone call. Things seemed to get a little bit more charitable in the discussion after the call, but still felt very unessecarily alienating to the caller imo. Because I do think the caller had a worthy point to be found somewhere in there, but maybe it was just lost in the translation of their thoughts into their actual speech. Because overall if the sentiment is that Democrats or the broader left movement could make an effort to be less alienating to poor, working-class white people who may even be a bit reactionary or "unwoke" when it comes to the intersectionality of class consciousness, white privelege, white supremacy and higher-class supremacy in terms of policing, etc. But I think it's just when we lack awareness of those intersections and fail to speak to them, that's when we might alienate those working class white folks who may or may not think that "being woke or progressive is when 1984". Idk. I just think that, ideally, we should be able to reach some of these people and even convince them to vote for our people, and hopefully even convince them to not be so bigoted, because our message SHOULD speak directly to and addresses their class struggle. But our economic policies aren't what they're hearing, or they've just been brainwashed into thinking that human beings aren't entitled to decent standard of living if our society has the means to provide us with the means to have one. But I do believe that yeah, we ARE entitled to that, and not only is that not a bad thing actually, but also to believe otherwise is kind of a total corporate boot-licker mentality to have...
@@Aries2890 No, what he is saying is that the left, with their white privilege ideas are missing the perspective of poor and working class white people, that no longer has any real opportunities to climb the class ladder, and that that messages whit those poor and working class poor comes off as blaming the poor white people for their statues in life, due to their inabilities, whereas poor black people, are only poor because of racism.
Yes, in the past, some poor white people, in particulare white males had sort of a privilege, they could climb the class ladder just buying doing the work. Many people in the leftist movement has themselves experienced this, or their parents or grand parents climbed that ladder due to their "privilege". And they think that because it was kind or true at one point, it still must be true.
There are a very limited number of chances for anyone to climb the class ladder today, so even if white people are overrepresented among those that get the chance, the number of chances are so rare that it is irrelevant. The left with the privilege narrative makes it sound like there are many chances and anyone not making it, that are supposedly privileged only has themselves to blame.
That whole narrative, plays well in to the right wing messaging. The left needs to hear this, and see the reality. While blacks may be more disadvantaged than white, poor whites are also disadvantaged so there is no meaningful difference to talk about.
In interaction with the police, poor white people are disadvantaged compare to middle class and rich white people. Black, even middle and upper class are disadvantaged, to the same degree or more than poor white people. And poor black people are really disadvantaged:
But that is not a valid ground for using a privilege narrative.
Poor white people do not have a privilege.
It is not a right wing talking point that many leftists talk about white privilege. It is a fact.
And that whole narrative, simply does not hold up. So poor white people get turned off by it. And some or many instead fall for the right wing narrative, as the white privilege narrative sounds like it confirms the right wing narrative, that the left want to give advantage to people of color.
The fact that the left in general (except for the reparations movement, that is struggling today), actually want to create policies that benefits all poor are lost or easily diffused by the right.
@@bananawammabama For privilege to be relevant it has to actually exist. For poor white people, they may have slithgly less of an disadvantage compared to poor black people. Poor white people do not have a privilege. Less of a disadvantage does not a privilege make.
The study shows that middle class or upper working class people, might actually start to blame poor white people for their own situation, while thinking that poor black people as a group are not to blame for their situation. Most poor people, no matter their skin color, do not have themselves to blame for their situation. Almost no poor people had a privilege opportunity that they wasted, and among the few that had, often other factors played in them wasting that opportunity. In some cases taking up drugs. But even among thos that did that, many only took up drugs or became addicts, because of other issues in their life that they did not get help with, and thus did not really have the privilege that it may look like.
the thing about the BLM protests is the things they advocate for would be beneficial for all people. Police brutality is bad, over-policing is bad. Even in the anecdote he shared, the woman didn't say "poor white people's problems don't matter." She was saying in that moment, they should take a back seat because the protests were sparked by the brutal murder of a black man by a cop. I would imagine if he had a chance to speak to that woman, she would probably be sympathetic to him, and if she wasn't, fuck her! When you have a massive social movement, it is inevitable there are going to be people with shitty opinions participating in it, but those aren't going to be the people who are taken seriously or become leaders of a movement. Those types would actually be the ones the far right focuses on because it allows them to paint a progressive movement as being "anti-white."
Hunter Britton was a 17 year old White high school student murdered in Arkansas by a cop in 2021 who purposely turned off his bodycam. BLM was first to show that mourning family support when the cops covered up the murder. So, this guy chooses anecdotes to support his fragility, not support correlation.
You know correlation doesn't show causation. Take a Statistics course.
Hunter Britton? 2 years later and this is the first I've heard of him.
@@rlh12345 Do you hear about every single thing that happens in the world?
😆🤣😂😹
@@joenarbaiz1640 I typically hear about the things that are politically significant in America. The things that the left tends to make a big rise about. i don't hear about white guys being shot by cops bc no one cares.
@@rlh12345 No one cares?
If just one person cares, your argument is discredited.
Using absolutes in arguments without supporting evidence is totally stupid. 🙄
Thanks for the confirmation!
😆🤣😂😹
His comments on "nobody brought up poor white people..."
Right wing racism and white privilege deniers have been consistently using that as a strawman all the time... he just showed up late to the conversation and assumed he knows everything.
I feel for this guy. I was 14 when my house was raided by police & my mother went to jail, she got off pretty lightly in comparison to other people who committed the same crimes & if she was brown/black, I assume she would’ve had a lot harder of a time. It still made me not like police & from an early age could see the difference between the families at my school who were middle class/wealthy & those who were poor. When it comes to police cracking down on white people in an unfair way, it’s more likely than not that it’s a class issue, not a race issue.
If dude told his story to the people at that protest, they would have believed him. That's a fucking sad story, and a true waste of taxpayer money to create a crime to catch. That's like prostitute stings that prey on lonely people.
@@phanatic215 "lonely people" lol you mean men? Lemme guess, you're a male? A business without customers dies. Who is running this business? And this is a "business" that is full of rpe, murder and human trafficking. Those men deserve to be exposed. Privileged white/westerners seem to want to ignore the harms. Do some actual research. The left also has entitled misogynists that's for sure.
Sadly we have no protections for class
@@amusecalledkayla1140 They sold out their own class protections. The American people did.
Aren't the cops who abuse poor whites usually just middle class whites? It's not like there is an epidemic of black cops hunting down whites and getting away with it scot free, as far as I know. When black cops go hard it's usually to other minorities.
When I was a college student (deans list, never been in trouble, on full scholarship), I was beaten within an inch of my life by police officers. Straight up hours of legitimate torture that nobody believes until they see the pictures of my body covered with serious injuries; the skull fractures, brain injury, cigarette burns, dog bites on my stripped naked body, a right eye that almost needed to be removed…. I’m a white male with *very* working class parents. I reached out to the ACLU for help. They sent a nice letter that while an injustice was certainly committed against me, with their limited resources they had to prioritize helping others in “more need”. They made this decision because I had already retained counsel (a $50 public defender). This caller represents a lot of experiences a lot of poor whites have had. I still support the ACLU but I have no illusions that they represent people in the class I happened to be born into. I don’t agree with everything the caller extrapolates from his experiences, at all. But his *feelings* on this are common within poor whites and it’s an issue for the left as a whole. Lots of us want to see class solidarity among the American poor, the 99%, plain and simple. While *not* ignoring the very real problems of racism, sexism and homophobia inherent in our institutions.
The cops beat you because you are white? You were targeted by the police because you are white? If not you should have kept the story to yourself. White people like you point out that police shoot more whites but leave out the important part of the person being unarmed. You being abused shouldn’t be justification for others to be abused because of their skin color.
@@lynchsc420 how did you get any of that from what I shared? I suspect the only reason they didn’t go through with killing me is because I’m not a POC. The point is that poor whites often *feel* like there’s no advocacy for their struggles in our unjust socioeconomic system because of attitudes like your own. I’m not implying that police brutality against whites is a problem to the same degree that it is for the black community, at all. Making everything a privilege contest excludes a lot of voters. One group having more privilege than another automatically excludes them from any discussion. That’s a losing game for everybody and you can see the effects of that clearly in American politics.
So you don’t agree with his generalizations derived from specific experiences at all but you agree many white working class Americans feel this way …?
@@waynecockerham7760 more or less yes. The only conclusion I’m drawing is that poor whites largely feel ignored by the left. And I’m choosing the word “feel” deliberately. I don’t draw the conclusion that, for example, police brutality among whites is a problem to nearly the same degree it is among POC. It’s not. But it does happen, and when it does white people without socioeconomic means feel ignored by a left that wants to help everyone *but* them. It leaves those people open to manipulation by figures like Trump. “The Left doesn’t care about you, but we do” says the Right. That’s not a great situation. I see a lot of radicalization happening in our society toward terrible ideas.
@@mrnelsonius5631 well then you agree with him.. “a left that wants to help everyone but them” like Sam asks in the video and the caller was unable to provide anything cogent or concrete , that’s simply unfounded ..even in policy plans not targeted at their specific demographic they benefit , so the “issue” if you will is messaging from either direction , possibly a lack of successful communication on all inclusive initiatives by the left and constant misinfo by the right idk the answer .. but like the MR crew I buy this as a real problem when all you can show me are anecdotes of somebody being mean to you at a rally about a another black guy being murdered by the state and your mom getting treated 60% of how poc women get treated in the daily I’m sorry I just can’t
Not every white person from a trailer park raised on beans n rice and day-old bread stores was offended.
I worked at a convenience store and worked with the daily threat of being hit with a sting, and a 4th degree felony, like his mom got. That isn't an issue of "white privilege". Can we argue that it is another way of hurting the working class? Yes, absolutely, particularly when you examine the repercussions of the individual worker's failure to check/ to properly ID for a pack of cigarettes, or alcohol.
But this guy does the cartoonish thing of holding onto his emotions around that event, but which are already tied to his mother's whiteness, and not class situation, and he builds his worldview around that as he grows. It's so telling.
He only said the sting operation was an example of white privilege insomuch as it wasn't harsher for his mom...
@@timwcronin if you listen to the conversation between him and Sam, you hear the pain this caller feels around his mother's experience around being arrested, and losing her job. He feels anguish about the treatment of this poor, white woman who was just trying to do her job and raise her son (him) and wonders why the government was wasting tax dollars, ie catch workers selling restricted items to minors. He was close to being right, but still missed the mark. Why? Because his argument becomes one based on whiteness, and not in class. It's a class struggle, a labor struggle, and not a race struggle. But continue to tell poor, white folk that their whiteness still makes them in any way superior to black or brown folks, and they will want to believe it. And the aggrievement complex will persist.
@@johmayo7042 i think you're projecting buddy.
@@timwcronin you're entitled to your thoughts.
It's pretty obvious that his mom getting arrested has nothing to do with her being white. This dude even acknowledged that maybe if she was black she would have been treated worse by the police. I honestly don't even understand how this dude thinks it had anything to do with race
The inability to admit one’s unearned privilege is odd. I’m a black woman and I can easily pinpoint aspects of my privilege. Cis-het, not disabled, college degrees run in my immediate family, American citizen, etc. - I was born in to these things and they give me benefits and access to mobility. Just like being a man, someone white, someone born in a rich family, etc.
Class says a lot in the west. I'm actually offended when it is implied that poor white people have more privilege than my kids (black middle class)
Yes! Part of learning about privilege is understanding that _everyone_ has privilege some of the time or in some situations. Yet that should _not_ keep us from recognizing our own privilege in these situations.
The caller is making the mistake (fueled by right-wing agitprop, probably) that because he doesn't have 100% privilege in every way, claims that he has *any* are pernicious bullshit. I agree with Sam and Emma the caller is making it easier to be further swayed by right-wing propaganda by taking his self-perceived "lack of privilege" vs. being called-out for it personally. He's not performing a material or class analysis because he's actually a liberal, and thus refuses to do so, and not a leftist.
Poor white peopls do have more privelege than your middle class black children in a lot of ways though. Im not sure why the truth would offend you? Anger you because it's incredibly unfair and you love your children like crazy is beyond underatandable. But offended by the idea that poor white folks have more privilege in ways is odd imo.
That's because you are being honest with yourself. The caller is not ... at all.
@@kevinchristensen7510 I have heard the kind of talk from the caller in several ways from White people all my life. These people call themselves Liberal and Democrats, but they are really "fence riders" and lean far more Right than they typically let on. They have a difficult time putting themselves in another's shoes, and until the thing they rail against happens to them, or someone they know, then for them it is impossible to understand.
I empathize with the caller's experience as a fellow white man. BUT the difference is that I don't let a single person's comments twist my entire view of a tough situation another group of people is facing.
I see "lefties" say idiotic shit on Twitter all the damn time, but I don't throw everything away because of that.
And that caller also needs to realize that effectively saying "At this very moment, we should focus on putting out the fire of the house that's literally on fucking fire rather than installing advanced smoke detectors in the houses that are fine."
It's just acknowledging a more statistically pressing issue. The caller acknowledged white privilege yet he can't do this?? I always find it sad when fellow white guys gotta make it about themselves. We DO face many struggles! And we do deserve to be heard, but I'm sorry, it's the "most white guy thing to do" to prioritize ourselves and make ourselves louder any time someone else speaks up.
It's just like that debate with the men's rights guy right after women lose reproductive rights. It's tone deaf af.
Exactly
Seems like his need to share his personal story of mistreatment far exceeds his commitment to the cause.
Anyone who showed up for those rally had commitment, I'm not sure that his experiences really made his point about white privilege though or the fact the white working class feel disenfranchised by the Left?
He was so hurt Sam wasn’t appalled that the cops would arrest his mom after she sold alcohol to a minor or that the speaker asked him to set his issues aside for the time being so the community, white and black, could come together and work as a United front to end police brutality, and it is going to cause him to call some other show and use this anecdote as further proof white privileged doesn’t exist. Dude is completely oblivious to the plight of others.
@@terryowen6759 I’m wondering if he had that commitment or simply wanted to go check out the rally. Sounds more like he happened upon a rally, and then he got upset this random speaker didn’t put his needs above those of the black community simply because he is white.
You may be right, but we can’t forget that people have cognitive & emotional beings. Using inclusive language just matters. The wilderness podcast explains this very well
It sounds like he went to a Black Lives Matter protest expecting a Defund the Police protest. While there's a lot of overlap, the specific goal of the rallies is different. I'm not going to my friend's funeral and saying "yeah but my mom died, too." Yes, we're all grieving but this isn't the focus of this event.
I am glad Sam takes callers and debates them. This is a good show. We need more talking and less screaming.
The man in the phone deserves credit too
It helps when the person calling in is calm, no matter how dead wrong he is.
@@majorlazor5058 True. But the most entertaining debate he has ever had was with Darryl Perry, hands down.
@Prezident By Name Only
I think he is a Kyle Kulinski type.. well in Kyle’s defense he isn’t as bad as this guy. They are okay with marginalized groups fighting for freedom, as long as they don’t bring up which demographic is most responsible for their oppression. I’ve seen Kyle go off the deep end and trash certain leftists who point out X people are the main groups that discriminate against other groups when X is white (specifically white & male).
Some lame argument about trying to bring over right wingers to the progressive side. I’ve never bought Kyle’s claim any significant number of right wingers became truly progressive, because his comment section is full of anti-feminists and racially bigoted fans.
@Prezident By Name Only
You were smart. I didn’t unsub until after he described the fall out of Jan 6 as Democrats just inflating the significance of what occurred. He even mocked AOC when she said she feared being murdered and “r-word”. Kyle referred to Jan 6 as a “Diet Coup”. I was done with him after that… unsubbed that day.
Damn they treated her like she broke the law or something but they were good to her during the arrest? WOW why can't they be like that with everyone
when Sam said he was hanging because your white had me do a literal spit take and had to change my shirt and wipe my desk
I laughed out loud and clapped. Great comedic timing!
Only because I had to read this a few times to understand, I want to provide edits for others - "Sam said he was hanging up because you're white"
@@bananawammabama Thank you haaa
I think I understand what the caller was trying to say. It's hard to build solidarity when a portion, in this case the white working-class, feel slighted, disrespected, and have their experiences seemingly invalidated. This is especially true for people who put feels over reals (which is a lot of people) and might decide to not support the left, because of a perception of hostility or indifference to their struggles. But I think its important for the white-working class to understand how activists and protestors are feeling when they say something that perhaps crosses the line. Emotions during the George Floyd protests were running high and, historically speaking, the white working-class has been centered in politics far more than POC. So, if an activist or protestor says something ostensibly offensive, it's most likely coming from a place of prolonged frustration and hurt. With that in mind, would it really hurt to let POC have their moment and say their piece, and not take it personally?
Yeah, this is also the chestnut of the "forgotten man" that let the GOP roll over us back in 2016. The GOP folks will snap up these people who feel like everyone is getting help but them, and for no other reason than being white.
You hit the mark. End of the day we all have to be emotionally mature enough to understand when it is time for us to step back.
Agreed. I understand what the caller is saying but it's hard for me to not tell him he's wrong. That white people have always been centered, and now it's their turn to meet POC halfway, understand the systemic issues, and be allies instead of making it about them. It's not about blame, but it is about making an effort. Instead, a lot of white people find it easier to feel like victims. I really hate it, as a white person myself, I'm at a loss because you can't force people to care.
It is a matter of messagin. And that speaker was just one example that the caller wanted to use. Leaders of the progressive left, typically comes from a upper or middle class background, they have higher education, or at least comes from a sheltered life and today, have a decent life. Their messaging and perspective comes from their experiences. For them, they see a large disadvantage for their black counterparts. For poor or struggling white people, the difference between their struggles and their black counterparts, there isn't as large of a difference. So the left overplays race, in regards to how their messaging should be adopted for the widest coalition of supporters.
The reason the caller used that example, was that is was more obvious than everything he has read in comments, and message board, or heard prominent progressives say, because it was from a true event in his life. Referring tom comments online, and MR crew would just disregard it as not actually something that leftists say in real life.
But many leftist, are quite elitistic in their views. They don't want to take in what poor people with less education have to say. And certainly not listen when people with less education are saying that their message doesn't sound right for them.
For equality and equity, the class fight is the most important fight. And it will reduce the amount of racism if successful. For people in middle or upper class, there is an over focus on issues that are secondary to that fight. Solve the class issues and the black and women, will have less of an disadvantage, or if it is completely solved, really non at all. The womens movement was importnat to give women rights. And the same for the racial movement. But from there on out, it is a matter of giving everyone a good life.
And poor white people want to be included on that journey, not excluded and told, this is not your time, now we want to lift black people.
The left need to realize that they need a strong movement for white males as well. Or include everyone in the same class fight.
Unfortunatley, it is very apparent in the womens movement, that they can engage their base by making men the enemy, and pitting working class and poor men againt working class women and poor women, instead of focusing on the actual issue that neither of those groups have gotten what they deserve in life.
@@TheJonHolstein you make some excellent points. Much more Nuanced than Sam, who really dropped the ball today.
Regardless of if it’s there or not, anti-whiteness is REAL to the millions of white working class people who align themselves with conservatives because they perceive that in democratic messaging. Screaming ‘white man you are just a narcissicist. Oh boo hoo grow up faggot’ is quod erat demonstrandum for the callers point.
The moment this guy said "the theory of white privilege" I bounced
Yeah. I was like this 😮.
I cringed at everyone in this that we couldn't work around to just talking about 'privilege' of which 'white' is a kind.
Then you missed a lot of valid information. Maybe learn to listen and broaden your horizon
@@xpen2007 nope
@tallwon33dude88 that's alright. Totally your choice to stay in the bubble you are comfortable with. Most people do that. And that's the reason why your country is so divided.
I've never heard anyone on the left say anything like that. I'm white and pretty poor. I've never had any issues on the left because I am white.
Sounds to me like the caller is just very sensitive about race being brought up and is finding ways to justify his discomfort. He found one study plus his anecdote about protests. Yeah it can be upsetting to hear that your race gives you an advantage if you're poor because, what advantage? But that's when you think "if it don't apply let it fly."
@@IshtarNike The issue is that if you try and talk about white issues
A lot of leftists at least online will tell you to your face that your problems are nothing, your problems don't matter and they'll literally tell you that it's cause your white
The same way you have leftist people who will say you can never criticize anything a POC says if you're white
And other straight up identity politics that a large amount of leftists engage in all the time...
The idea that poor whites do not feel represented or included in the modern left movement at least socially is something you can find a lot of evidence of in how certain leftist groups treat a person whose POC and or white...
These are things we can test and look at for ourselves, and yes a good deal of class consciousness and or solidarity is dropped or informed in-order to frame.itnasnof the white person shouldn't,t have an opinion or be included in the conversations because of their imposed social status
These are direct issues that I think should be stated to be more socially focussed, as Democrats legally have been putting out plans and bills that benefit all working class to some extent...
But socially, especially online, Yes the left alienates white people especially potential allies and worker comrades because they're more concerned with their private little social circles and pandering for social brownie points...
@@mckenzie.latham91 thank you.
I have, and one look on Twitter in liberal circles will give you your fill. I've been involved in leftist activist circles going back to the anti-wto protests. Back then there were coalitions with the new black panther party and punk rock activists. We had Gang Truce groups bringing in Crips and Bloods. Mostly now it's student groups from rich universities with whiner kids who've never felt what it's like to live in the ghetto or go hungry. The politicians in the GOP hate poor people and the democrats just use them. Nothing has changed for working class people, the situation has only gotten worse.
I think you guys are correct. Sometimes you go to a protest and some well intentioned person says things that are a big turn off. Like "Poor people don't matter, if they're white." I've been to many many protests, I've been a leader in the Marijuana legalization movement in Seattle (and worldwide with my work with the non profit I started called Safershirts) since 2010. I've been to many protests. We often have a microphone and some speakers and occasionally someone who really wants to help speaks into the microphone and does something more like the opposite of help. They make us look bad, they make fence sitters choose not to become activists, they make fence sitters choose not to support legalization. So people need to expect that at protests people will occasionally say dumb stuff. I think the guy who called in is smart enough to listen to the one dumb protester out of ten and let it go. At the same time, I think it's smart to talk about things like people becoming less sympathetic to struggling poor people. If someone is poor, I do not blame them. I blame the system. I believe white privilege is real, but I also believe poor people are poor because the system. I don't think it's easy to climb out of poverty. I don't think we should have this attitude toward poor white people like "Oh you're poor, I don't care, you could easily become non-poor because you're white." I mean we could argue whether or not anyone ever actually feels like that, or if a statistically significant large number of people think like that. But if someone says "I don't care about poor white people because they could easily become non-poor with their whiteness." We should say "You're not allowed to touch the microphone."
So 10 years ago at the legalise weed mass protest you brought a PA system and offered an open mike to someone who said,
"I don't care about poor white people because they could easily become non-poor with their whiteness."
This upset some bystanders and in retrospect you wish you said,
"You're not allowed to touch the microphone."
@@JacobJake1 That is not what he said. Re-read his comment.
@@Trash_Panda_Manifesto seriously, being obtuse about is what many of these people lean on. They just refuse to take it on its face when it's actually very simple.
I mean, he called in because he couldn't let that one speech go, tbf
@@JacobJake1 no.
Emma's demeanor through this call is definitely me listening to this guy.
Emma points out the problem so well and succinctly.
i feel like the MR crew is being intellectually dishonest in this conversation. You can't deny that there is a movement for race based social programs currently in this country after the George Floyd protests. Here in California for example there instead of a movement to raise the minimum wage for everybody there are people who advocate to raise the minimum wage for specific jobs that are disproportionately this or that race. The idea of reparations has traction while people freeze to death and get raped on the streets because of the homeless crisis.
That is not to say we can't address both issues, but like the minimum wage example I gave, we can address both needs at the same time. Instead of giving money in the form of reparations to middle class black people who don't need it, we can create strong social programs for the poor. Those middle class black people wouldn't have to pay to send their kids to college, struggle with their kids looking for housing and decent jobs, etc. Black, brown, and lagbtq white people would disproportionately benefit since they are more likely to be homeless, not afford college, not get healthcare, etc.
The growing race based political climate we are currently in is distinctly anti left and inherently anti-white in that way because instead of everybody getting on board movements that include everybody in need, people are wanting programs only for specific people. It's an undeniable fact
How stupid is the far left on this? There are numerically more poor white than any other race. Proportion and raw numbers can be and are different. I’m a mixed race working class parents person myself and I roll my eyes so bad at these fancy school-graduate “white privilege is everything” fanatical mental midgets
I’m never watching this channel again until that girl is gone. I’m a mixed race working class liberal. How stupid is that girl? I know many people all over the place who say exactly what was said at that BLM rally that this guy heard. Anyone who doesn’t know that’s a thing is an idiot. I don’t know how big a problem it is. But rolling yr eyes at it shows yr blind
I know you posted this a while ago now, but I think Emma's demeanor actually highlights some of the biggest problems people have on either side of the political spectrum. Sam is debating the caller in earnest and hearing him out while Emma is shaking her head, smirking at his personal anecdotes, and writing him off as irrelevant without saying a word. That's pretty closeminded. You may disagree with where the caller is coming from, but his experiences are still valid. That's why I appreciate how Sam actually tries to understand the opposing side of an argument, rather than just dismissing a person based on their perspective not matching up with their own.
In case you don't know, Emma's dismissive, smug response is EXACTLY the wrong response. I watch and like your show, but she was just a prick here.
One thing with his mom is the police probably weren't specifically targeting her.
Nor targeting her **because** of her race.
not really relevant...
He never claimed they were. His point wasn’t that cops are racist against white people. But telling people who are at a rally supporting your cause that your voice or experiences don’t matter specifically because of their race, you’re going to turn people away.
And he’s completely right…
@@HLVEYT right?
Not only is that NOT what was said, but that's not even what the caller says was said.
What was said was, "in THIS moment, it's not about you".
Not only are those Two things STARKLY different from one another, within the context of his story, it was absolutely accurate.
His mother sold alcohol to "a minor". Why shouldn't she have been arrested?
This guy is not only wrong, he couldn't BE more wrong.
He's the worst, most whiney, distasteful, self~absorbed example of white privilege I've seen in I dunno how long.
I mean, he knows white privilege exists, but demands it shouldn't be talked about because it can result in unpleasantness for white people. If THAT ain't white privilege, then what in the whole, wide, actual fk IS?
I don’t disagree with the caller too much. Too much alienation of potential allies in the bigger fight, and Emma’s snarkyness kinda proved his point.
“The crime of forgetting to check ID.” No, the crime of selling alcohol to a minor. Not checking ID can result in shutting down an entire business. I get that it can be easy to forget to do something, but when you sell alcohol…man, you gotta make it a habit or put something in place to make sure you don’t even have an opportunity to forget.
Also, no disrespect, but maybe your mom was lying about forgetting. Maybe she neglected to check ID too often and that’s why the cops were there in the first place?
And of course shitty things happen to white people, especially when they’re poor - but it isn’t BECAUSE they’re white.
Finally, according to the caller, the speaker did not say, “We don’t care about white people who are poor.” They quoted her as saying “Poor, white people - this isn’t about you.” In other words: Don’t make this about being poor; not right now. I remember seeing ppl do that at George Floyd protests, so she may have too and decided to address it.
But hey, if you disagree, then disagree respectfully and move on.
Actually, no.
Because it was a sting operation, the crime was literally not checking ID, since the purchaser wasn't actually underage.
I understand what the caller is saying, but honestly the caller is misunderstanding a dynamic: he's expecting empathy and sympathy, while also not having empathy and sympathy for the position of the speaker that aggrieved him. Anger isn't always going to be perfectly aimed in the most efficient direction.
I get why they feel offended, but the moral of the story is that its an overreaction. Even if you do get confronted by people or speeches with anti white rhetoric or anti white undertones, im not going to say you need to agree with that, but at least understand why they feel like they do. At the end of the day, it feels like you're so caught up in your own experience to where you've lost perspective on reality. Yes, poor working class white people do struggle, and yes, they deserve to have those struggles ameliorated. However when you go to a protest that is sparked by racial injustice towards a group of people that have been particularly aggrieved for hundreds of years, you should be able to have empathy and compassion for people who may lash out(this speech honestly was just a really minor sleight, it wasn't really anti white).
The path to a better world is not the clean straight line of perfectly solving every problem with 100% efficiency, its muddy and winding, and the only way to get everyone on the same page to make it more efficient, we need to realize other people have stories too, and even if your story is tough, it doesn't mean it's the right story to center. Trust me, the world will not leave behind poor white people if we make political gains
I get that the center of the point was that you feel this creates a divide that prevents poor white people from getting behind the movement, but whats the plan of action? We sure as hell aren't going to stop teaching people about white privilege, because it describes reality quite well. Changing the rhetoric to center around rights isn't necessarily even going to fix the described dynamic. And how do you know you wouldn't lose significantly more people that were radicalized from the privilege rhetoric?
What you're saying is really interesting and makes sense to me in a certain way... but at the same time, if we have a standard of belief/behavior ("everyone should be treated fairly and equally"), then we shouldn't make excuses for behavior that, if done by a white person or a rich person, we would be intolerant of. And if we have some success in reaching more societal fairness, at what point do we retreat from minimizing the experience of a certain group? Do we ever step back from it? Knowing human nature, I think maintaining the spirit of revenge might be more likely. Which fortifies the idea that we should all judge each other by a greater principle than which race or economic class we're a member of.
@@jaykay415 the issue here is that leftists nearly entirely do believe in that egalitarian vision. Oftentimes, even the people who engage in angry rhetoric do as well. Extrapolating what they're saying into an entire anti white world view is not an accurate view of the situation or reality.
I would ask again what the plan of action is. It seems inactionable. This is not a normal situation, and as such, it will warrant additional consideration. Hundreds of years of oppression on another level entirely from just class will result in some people having special distate. I dont agree with that distate or condone it, but I can understand why one would feel that way. The boundary for acceptable behaviors should expand like elastic to suit the needs of the special circumstances
@@pyrel But it is actionable and you already stated what the action is: people should be empathetic and sympathetic to those who have similar experiences instead of invalidating and ignoring. I see this same problem happen all the time in conversations with (certain kinds of) feminists where they say they believe in equality and that "feminism is egalitarianism," but then they also say that men can't be raped or they make fun of men that are victims of sexual abuse or domestic violence by a woman, and they use phrases like "man up". And this type of rhetoric gets applause from other "feminists" all the time.
It's easy to _say_ you believe in equality for all but that means it doesn't stop just because you're angry or addressing a privileged party. If people truly believe in that then they have to show compassion equally to everyone _all the time_ and not only when they're calm and nothing's going on, because it's easy to be kind to others when nothing's happening. It takes character to be kind even in the midst of righteous anger.
Listener should read Isabell Wilkerson’s Caste: The Origin of Our Discontent she tackles this topic head on in the book. Poor whites were a casualty of class warfare of a white supremacist capitalist system that purposefully implemented policy to oppress black people and people of color. Poor whites just caught a stray. A deliberate line was drawn over 40 years ago where the rungs 🪜 underneath certain demographics of people were ripped away and some poor white people where unfortunately caught up in that rapture and STILL blaming immigrants, Muslims and black people for it! TIL THIS DAY! 😂 Poor white people don’t seem to get that it was RICH WHITE PEOPLE that created and implemented policy that currently oppresses poor white people, just as it oppresses us to a greater degree. All of poor white peoples bread and butter issues could be fixed by policy. But instead they vote for oppressive policies to be enacted on non-white people that eventually ALSO EFFECTS THEM and bites them in the ass. Because newsflash you might be white but you’re poor too! It’s this constant Southern Strategy they keep falling for and keep getting the same results! It’s maddening.
Anytime a black person brings up black people issues, there is undoubtedly always at least one white person saying what about white people issues. That's most likely why they brought it up in their speech. We hear from white liberals all the time that is not about race it's about class. Both things are I playing here. And at a protest about a black man being harmed by the police it's about black people. I get so sick and tired of trying of debate my own humanity with people who claims they're my ally.
That was a very illustrative conversation. Caller - activists can be spikey. The protest wasn't for you. Sometimes you have to put your feelings aside and help others knowing that you'll benefit as well.
Life isn't a zero-sum game. It just isnt.
Exactly! Great summary?
No, but if the message the left is using, and not talking about the speaker of that event, but the whole white privilege narrative, that is misguided, if that turns people off, and seemingly confirms right with talkingpoints, well, then the chances for bulding a leftist majority is reduced and by that the chances of getting those policies trhough. And that was what nate was trying to say. But MR were not willing to listen. And not willing to understand. Some people did experience "white privilege"; themselves or have their class belongings to thank for their parents or grand parents experiencing that. Today, to the extent that poor white people are less disadvantaged compared to poor black, there aren't enough chances for any relevant number or white people taking advantage of that less disadvantage to climb the class ladder, for there to be any ground to claim white privilege.
The class fight will have a much greater impact on black peoples life, than trying to have a fight for racial equality that does not take in the poor white peoples perspective, so it will be unsuccessful in building majorities.
The world has changed. The right can win over large number of poor and working class whites, with their message of the left not caring about them. The left needs to win these people over to the left, without passing the center or PMC political messaging, because that is not a realistic path. There is no point trying to convince people with limited opportunities that black has it even worse, because that is irrelevant for them.
It may seem relevant for middle and upper class leftist, where there may be a clear difference between being black and white, but among the poor, that difference is for the most part irrelevant.
I get that a upper or middle class person gets really upset when their black upper or middle class friend is treated like a poor white person or slightly worse by the police. That the police does not see their class belonging. That is a large drop in class status for that black person. The poor white person is also treated badly by the police, probably less than the poor black person, but the difference is less for poor white people.
Racism is something that people are taught, and in the modern world if people are given a good life with fair opportunities, they are much less likely to accept the racist message that people are trying to teach them. But if the left leaves the door open, and even make statements that can be used by racist messengers, well then more people will become racist.
The left is really bad at rhetoric, as a movement, because their messaging is mostly formed by well educated people, that for some reason don't see that their education plays a role in how they expect people to receive their messaging. And in some cases it comes off att the opposite of what they mean, or can be used to manipulate someone to believe they mean the opposite.
I have several friends who have moved Right in their politics because of people, mostly zealous young white people, throwing the term 'white privilege' at them as well as telling them they are inherently racist. I imagine it's how some of my more rational Republican friends feel about their Maga compatriots basically pushing them out of their party.
yeah imagine going to a black lives matter rally and making it about yourself, a white man. just dont go there doofus if you feel hurt by not being centered
@@venusboys3 it’s hard not to feel reactionary. All we can hope is that people put their personal grievances aside and realize their pain extends past black or white.
The caller was right about one thing. The framing of the conversation should be about rights rather than privilege.
The conversation should be, I agree. But curious how this caller's desire for more sympathy towards poor white people translates to rights. In all of the framing that he did, all I took away was that it was about how he and his mother didn't get enough sympathy, whereas other causes did garner more sympathy like BLM. So was it about rights? Seemed still like privilege.
@@bananawammabama I believe that his underlying point was that no matter what color your skin is, it's far too easy for people to go under when they are struggling financially, even though we live inside the richest country on Earth. And he is correct about that in my opinion.
However, he is conflating, (again) in my opinion, the separate (though related) issues of the systemic racial prejudice of our public servants, with the result of the past several decades of crony capitalism and economic classism.
Also, I have a feeling that a lot of people out there would actually agree that his mom should have been arrested for allowing her employee(s) to sell alcohol to minors. And admitting that she was not abused or otherwise mistreated (thank goodness) in any serious way probably does not help.
At any rate, only he really knows what he meant by what he said on this call. Because he was not very being very clear about it smh.
To be honest, his hesitancy to answer Sam's (frankly valid) question about whether he wanted for the issue to even be discussed in a classroom setting (let alone implemented into the curriculum) did make me kind of wonder as to his actual motive(s).
I think realizing that privilege exists is important to be able to see why you need to fight for the rights of other people and not just your own.
Assuming that privilege does not exist leads to difficulty empathizing with people who are faced with challenges in a way that you simply don't, through no fault of their own.
It leads to people assuming that because they *think* everyone is on equal ground in the system that that's the case in practice.
Rights implies a legal framing that the right is unfortunately "correct" about: laws are, by and large, egalitarian today. Instead, I think a more apropos framing is around (dis)advantages. Some people have legs up based on characteristics while others are held back because of theirs. This framing still orients to the systemic inequalities, but points is less judgmental about individuals who benefit from them.
@@NeedleInTheHay1990 Indeed. A system truly based on equal outcomes may be impossible to achieve, regardless of the system of government or economics which is being utilized.
So, as a society, the best that anyone may be able to do is to seek to enact a system based on equal opportunities instead.
I feel where this bro is coming from but he exposes his privilege by his open sensitivity to not having his mom's struggle centered.
Ironically, he's exactly why it's hard to make progress on the Left.
Huh?
@@tavonfenwick-yb5xv it's incoherent
@47shadows76 it's not "privelege" to centre one's own experience, it's human nature. That applies equally to people of all backgrounds, do you think queer or black activists don't centre their own experiences? and react negatively to movements when feeling that issues that affect them are excluded?
@@Muzikman127 How is it incoherent?
The idea that white privilege doesn't exist because a single white person had a mom who struggled through life is asinine. That was the caller's argument.
That's like a Russian soldier claiming that Putin's war in Ukraine was morally justified because his brother died in the war.
That's irrational and if you agree with the caller then you're not on the left.
@@Muzikman127 No, it is privilege to Center your own experiences to delegitimize the experience of documented marginalized class.
If women are speaking on their experience with marital DV and I, as a rational man, dismiss their existence by saying that my ex gf would swing on me when she's angry, therefore claiming that DV is bidirectional, that's stupid.
It's typically whites that ruin social movements because they don't know what's it like to NOT have their experience validated. Hence my OP.
I've been pulled over drunk af several times and never got a dui. Once I was even tripping on LSD and still drove away from it. No way would a POC get to drive away free and clear
Not true. Just less likely. That's all privilege is. Applying privilege to individuals instead of systemic analysis is the issue.
Stay safe ❤️
@@timwcronin well said. Need to keep it out of discussions about individual people.
@@maxwellphillips5791 it’s sad to see many members of the majority report fail to make that beginner level distinction. They hand waved away this guys complaints because they immediately placed him in the “privileged” box. They would be much more understanding if the caller was anything but a white male. I’m afraid this caller left this conversation with even stronger conviction in his perception. Majority report simply did a bad job here. They made them and their audience feel a slight sense of superiority while contributing to the rot that is eating the left from the inside
How do you know?
“What the left need to understand that cops are very mean.”
Bruh.
Dude’s mom actually didn’t follow the law. The protest he’s referring to was for an unarmed man that did nothing wrong and was killed. Really?
The inability to consider the differences between those two experiences is exactly what white privilege is.
The most charitable interpretation I could give to the caller: There exist some people (usually wealthy) who are vaguely on the left in a social sense (though in a total sense, I would say they're not really truly on the left) who boost cultural discussion on racial (& gender) stuff RE equity & fairness but never talk about the other goliath privilege of economic privilege. It's as if their politics start & end with 'more black people at the Oscars' & 'More black billionaires'. What this signals to poor white people is that basically they don't matter.
To be fair it MUST be stated that the right will amplify these people & make them look more numerous than they really are. Most people who criticize racial injustice criticize economic injustice. It's partially a systemic problem - society is such that most of the voices we hear are wealthy, (because wealth correlates to influence), & they don't mind elevating minorities (in a specific way) because they lose nothing, but if they elevate WORKING PEOPLE, they stand to lose on that.
yeah, nobody likes really likes the radlibs. but that's also not a significant portion of any population, like the stereotypical trustafrain-types conservatives and uninformed independents think the left is made up of are actually very few and far between.
but those cherry-picked examples can still paint entire swathes of people out to be inherently evil, pretty successfully too.
i know these same examples were presented to ME in what i thought at the time was engaging, compelling media in the form of anti-sjw content like 10 years ago...so i can only imagine how sophisticated the whole apparatus has gotten since then to radicalizing normies in record time.
But that is roughly what the caller was getting at. The left, and it isn't just the wealthy, it is the upper working class, up to the upper class leftist, that all form that messaging.
The white privilege does not exist. To some extent a period between 1940 and 1990, many white people coming of age, could if they put in the effort move from poor or working class, to upper working class or middle class, and build a decent life for themselves. At that time, almost no black people had the same opportunity. And for a while white women were mostly excluded as well.
That is not what the world look like today.
Poor white people, may be slightly disadvantaged compared to poor black people. But there are very few chances of moving upwards by just putting in the effort. So it is for the most part irrelevant narrative when it comes to economic issues.
When it comes to police and the justice system. Middle and upper class black people, are treated much much worse than their white counterparts, but not necessarily worse than poor white people. Poor black people are treated worse than poor white people. But the difference is less between poor white and poor black compared to middle and upper class white and their black counterparts.
And less of an disadvantage does not a privilege make.
So the poor white people, when they hear about the white privilege, they don't see it anywhere in their life.
And thus, when leftist go around saying it all over forums, and on protests and elsewhere, they feel alienated, because to them it sounds like the left is saying that poor white people have themselves to blame, whereas black people are only poor because of racism.
The left, when they think they have the moral highground, are really bad att messaging, because their messaging is formed by people with higher education that thinks that everyone should share their perspective, that is formed by either their class or education, or both. Their messaging however might sound like the opposite, or can be manipulated by bad actors to sound like it means the opposite.
The caller did not say that the left in general had any pro black politics, but that they in their messaging scares off white people to the right, so that the left can not get the majorities they need to get their politics through.
And the MR crew, that due to their class statues, and education level, could not see it from the callers perspective, misunderstood, in exactly the way one could expect from large part of the left.
There are parts of the left that are for reparations, and that was a relevant policy back when people needed to get on even grounds with white people. Today many white people would need the same help, so it is irrelevant to frame it like reparations.
Many on the left has lost the class perspective, since they live a pretty good life, and in their life other issues might seem bigger, but for the poor white people, those other issues are not bigger. And when the left cant message properly and does identity politics rather than class politics, well then they don't have a good chance of winning back the poor and working class white people.
The left has themselves to blame, when their poor messaging leads to poor people (and it isn't just white), falling for a right wing message, when it seems by the left's messaging that they don't see the world as it is. If they are going to fall for a false or misguided message, it is wrong for the left, to believe that their misguided messaging should win over the right wings intentionally misguided or false messaging.
More 👏black 👏women 👏of color 👏 Lockheed Martin 👏 CEOs.
@@mmaNorway1 many of these white working class people who hate the “anti white” rhetoric are just white men who don’t like anyone criticizing white men.. they are colorblind left and down with lifting the poor up but they want to retain their place at the top of the hierarchy. They don’t want to talk about sexism or racism because they agree with the ideals of the white men being the apex model human that everyone else should revere and emulate
That was my take--I copy my comment here: If I understand him, his point isn't about whether or not there is systemic racism, it's about making sure the Democratic Party doesn't unintentionally alienate disaffected angry working class and poor white people. Unlike us, most voters do not know the policies of either party. Some of them think liberals are ONLY about LGBTQ issues and race and are anti-religion ("identity politics") because that is all they hear on right-wing media. The social programs promoted by the Democratic party will equally help all poor people no matter their race or gender and that is how best to sell them, even if the end result helps more POC than white people. (Precisely because of systemic racism.) The Reverend William Barber ALWAYS includes poor white people when talking of fighting poverty for this reason. It doesn't mean we stop fighting systemic racism through other policies or means. The caller is talking about perception of the Dem party as elitist and anti-white not by educated and politically aware folks, but by Fox-viewing "hillbillies" who might otherwise support the social programs we want to implement. It's not about his mom or actual racism, but about political messaging.
When I went to the George Floyd protest site in Minneapolis a few weeks after the protests I was very conscious of not being black. I was taking photographs and I would’ve understood if a black person had given me a look or even made a rude comment because the feelings about the protests were still very new and raw. Those people had no idea who I was and why I might be there. Sometimes, you just need to concede that what is happening around you isn’t about you. It is not anti-White to be pro-Black.
However poorly worded, this man does have a point. No matter how anecdotal his evidence is, there is no denying that a lot of white lower class Americans do unfortunately feel this way and are dissuade from taking part because of this. The right knows this and plays on it very well. It is necessary for systemic political change to happen that people need to unite across racial lines and it's a shame this man feels alienated from the class struggle because of racial esthetics that are often deliberately put in place by the media to keep people from unifying under class. So Imma pull a jbp and say this is bad and I'm not smart enough to suggest a solution.
Yeah its a bit sad, but he missed the point that his experience was a class based discrimination. Poorer people face discrimination a lot in the world, and it just so happens that there are a lot more systems in place that make it harder for minorities to gain wealth. A lot of those policies were racially motivated so yes, its complicated but it is a class and race issue. The dude shouldn't feel alienated because one person turned them away from a movement, they should base a movement based on that movement's goal, and that goal he would greatly benefit from.
I'm black, so the whole idea that the left is 'anti-white' seems ridiculous when the left is majority white? I think he is trying to say that upper class liberal whites look down on lower class whites, which makes more sense. I agree with you that we need to unite across racial lines, but to many black people that sounds like we should ignore some of the issues that impact us more than others. I'm not saying your are saying that, but that's how it comes off. I just think we need to be honest about the situation. A lot of people are abused by the police, it just hits black people the hardest. Is that a fair statement? I think that goes for a lot of issues. I don't think that's 'anti-white' to state it that way.
This was a good discussion. Emma and Matt's dismissiveness isn't helpful. The class struggle issue is massive in society today. I think the reaction to the caller was a bit overly hostile.
Agree 1000%
To be generous to the hosts, I think thr term "anti white" sets off alarm bells straight away, because it's s common dogwhistle by some really nasty racists. That's not the way the caller was using it but I think it got their backs up from the beginning and led to some of the hostility
I worked at a gas station selling liquor for a few years in college, and I knew of people at stations in town who were arrested for selling to minors. The cops would send in underage minors to buy liquor and if you sold it to them, they would handcuff you on the spot and book you for a crime. I also, while in college, walked into a gas station in my town to buy a soda, and WHILE I WAS IN THERE, the cops came in with a kid, walked to the counter, asked if the attendant had sold beer to that person (and she confirmed she had), and handcuffed her right after she called her boss to have someone come and man the register since she was going to jail. GTFOH with that nonsense.
I worked at smoke shops for years and LAUGHED at his stories because his mom BROKE THE LAW and suffered the MINIMUM CONSEQUENCES and he felt that was absurd. HE is absurd.
@@chaotickreg7024 yep, same. I worked at a gas station that sold alcohol. You literally have to do training on this, and it's not some bs 5 minute training either (they flew this one guy out that has a license to teach liquor laws in the US and we had to rent a meeting room at a hotel to hold the class).
The only times I had issues with customers were when I asked to see their card despite them being over 21. Sorry, gotta card EVERYONE in my town (a college town known for drunk hijinks)
@@ranbummerz729 Right, there is never any reason to relax on ID laws. You just do it, and everyone else should respect your legal duty. The guy in the video thinks it's the god given right of a 20 year old to drink a beer but the people of this nation decided that he was wrong.
@@chaotickreg7024 most americabrained comment I've read
@@LeShakeFake Not an argument.
The fact is, Sam is demonstrating the effectiveness of the left at trying to reach out to people, while Emma is demonstrating what the caller called in to complain about.
100%
Indeed. This was one of their lowest points. It looked like all they wanted was to prove and protect their ideological purity.
why? because some of us white people think he's full of shit for getting offended because someone told white people their problems werent the focus of the day?
why is it that people like myself and emma.......AND sam wouldnt have gotten offended by what that woman said? its because we arent narcissists who think everything has to do with us. we would understand that she most likely had a valid reason for saying what she said......just because he doesnt know why she said it, it doesnt mean that she was bringing it up out of nowhere. for him to just assume that she was talking down to white people because he is white makes him not as much of a supporter of blm as he thinks he is
Exactly. I’m very disappointed in Emma’s behavior here. It was disgusting - and I LIKE Emma. Very disappointed.
@@pllpsy665exactly. The guy carried himself incredibly well and they were chomping at the bit to dismiss and laugh at his personal lives experience. Pretty sad.
My man said, don't paint white people as a monolith as he proceeds to paint the left and black people with the widest brush...
it’s so frustrating
He couldn’t tell the difference between class struggle and white privilege
That’s essentially what’s going on …
Actually the study was elucidating the intersection of the two diminishes privilege. He was totally able to distinguish the difference. Sam was not. Sam could have, but Sam didn't listen.
@@timwcronin The caller used the study to cite (verbatim), why he's a victim of white racism. Also, if your best lived example for support of your argument is placing equal significance to something that happened 30 years ago (of someone else) to the daily struggle of ACTUAL minorities, and conclude that class somehow is the equating factor, then no, he was not able to distinguish class struggle and white privilege. Objectively.
@@timwcronin good try, but you failed 😬. Play again
@@RunForPeace-hk1cu agree to disagree. "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." But keep thinking bringing white people into injustices suffered by others, or continuing to beset lower to middle classes with injustices is fine if those injustices are fairly distributed.
@@timwcronin Read @LD-tn6ff answer sums it up pretty well. It has nothing to do with agree to disagree. You are objectively wrong.
You failed. Play again. It's tiring.
Listen to this sort of talk is what makes me proud to be on the left.
For us, it really is abt building a better world. But it's hard as this shows.
You won't find this in most commentary outlets.
Build a better world by being racist towards white people.
I’m a 50 year old black man & I can totally see this man’s point as it relates to white leftist liberal rhetoric. We need to be able to cultivate & utilize much more inclusive language while also acknowledging the factual reality of the disproportionate struggle of minority communities. Empathetic language can be cultivated for all people that are struggling. Imho, the left, more specifically white people of the left need to be more aware of this. Maybe in an outlier as a black man but I clearly recognize class & race issues. Even if a movement happens to be more race centered using inclusive specific language to illustrate the intersectionality of race and class should always be front of mind. This is how a stronger more inclusive coalition in the left can be built. The left absolutely needs as many poor working class whites in the tent as possible. It’s a tough linguistic balance to hold because historically, & in present day, working class/poor whites haven’t displayed, nor recognized that their economic and legal plights were much more aligned with black people than whites. MLK was big on creating this political coalition before he was killed. Reverend Barber attempts a modern version of this with the poor peoples campaign.
Stop dancin bruh. You ain't getting no extra biscuits.
@@rasheedjamal9091 Wow and you're the guy we should be trusting about this caller supposedly trying to bring some vague covert racism tolerance to the broader progressive movement? Seems like you got that covered.
@@rasheedjamal9091 not looking for more biscuits bruh. Just trying to appeal to my fellow leftists to build a more cohesive, inclusive, durable, multi-ethnic political & social coalition. Black people need to be willing to extend the same empathy to others that we want for ourselves. Class issues are real, but so are race ones. We need good faith whites to accomplish political goals that benefit all of us.
Exactly
@@jankelsey9738 👍🏾
What’s stopping the caller from protesting the police himself?
The caller I think just enjoys being a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian. He is like "ooh I'm gonna say this because its gonna trigger leftists" when he fails to realize many people on the left recognise the inhumane way the police treat poor people of all races (just that black and brown people on a whole get treated worse than white people do).
The white identity is founded on white supremacy. There is no white identity without white supremacy. Understanding this and recognizing how we self-identify is an important part of addressing racism.
It’s always funny to see Emma’s face when she’s done. 😆
THIS!
It’s not polite or professional
She perfectly encapsulates what the caller was trying to explain. The left rightly concerns itself with the plight of racial minorities, but does so by ignoring and even taking pleasure in the injustices white people suffer. Look at her smirking when he shares a personal story of his mother being arrested and humiliated.
@@timothyjackson4653too bad, we don’t have to be polite
@@ThickRedPasteshe comes across as so unbelievably condescending and she focuses too much on snarkiness and arrogance and her little passive aggressive eye rolls and eye contact with people behind the camera and head shaking than rationally speaking about these topics. I’ve seen it on so many videos
Guys, while I think caller makes some valid but misdirected critiques, as Sam said, the sneering and condescending dismissal is legitimately offputting. Making joke whiny baby “aww sorry your feelings were hurt” was snide and I think unwarranted. I didn’t get the sense caller was making points in bad faith or a Nazi, so I don’t get the uncharitability. The Left is not magically devoid of bad behavior or tendencies, and I don’t see why we can’t seriously address examples of it while simultaneously pushing back on using those examples to make sweeping critiques of the entire movement
Calling this man a narcissist does not further this conversation. Sam’s compassion and understanding of what this man went through and isolating it to the fact that it was not white privilege that affected this man’s life but how the poorer class is being treated and looked upon. This man is taking curtain things that he encountered in his life and misconstrued it personally. He was honestly trying to have a conversation.
I agree he started out with great talking points but the more he chipped away at the root cause the more it exposed his true intentions
idk i think more people need to be told bluntly that their personal experiences aren’t indicative of the reality of the entire world.
@@MsCameraMan75 💯
The caller's argument in a nutshell was "there are some assholes on the left, and because I didn't like their specific message, that somehow represents the whole position of 'the left' with no nuance whatsoever".
Next...
Well actually these few ppl end up converting other ppl to the gop. And that the lefts extremes push conservatives and moderates to the gop
basically
@@kiedranFan2035 thats not "the left" pushing anyone to the republican nazi party--- thats their own latent racism which becomes the operative "motivation" i.e. either THEY are the center of attention and respect (as white people should ALWAYS be notwithstanding the situation at hand) or they "walk"
this is weak bro
He’s completely unable to think with nuance here. It just seems like he wants to be right without critically thinking about his argument
I bounced when he said that the speaker was essentially saying that “poor white lives don’t matter unless she says so”-seems like this dude is projecting his insecurities about his whiteness onto Black people because anyone would hear that speaker and move on with their lives-it was a George Floyd protest where people were discussing the experiences of poor Black people with the police, which is much different than that of poor white people as he admitted when he told the story about his mother. I think this is a conversation amongst white leftist if anything as he admitted the study focused on the lack of empathy white leftist who are taught what white privilege feel against other poor white people. Quite different from the example that bothered him. Anyway, it’s leftism-it’s supposed to be uncomfortable.
The mr crew here perfectly demonstrated being technically correct while botching it with delivery. Emma saying boo-hoo to an obviously traumatized guy was EXACTLY the wrong move. Love you guys but if you're going to invest this much time discussing an issue with a caller. Don't treat them like shit.
Yeah, I agree. I think Sam started off well but then took some cues from the others. He kept assuming the caller was more adversarial than he actually was. Emma's comment about ego may have been correct but it wasn't necessary to make it so cutting. Maybe im being too critical. It's easy for us to Monday morning quarterback the convo.
They are so far up their own asses, they have never changed a position even when they know they are wrong
It was a piece of shit move on her part, the dude clearly feels emotionally hurt by it, and its fine he feels that why, in no way does it help her convince this guy by acting that way to him.
Yes he is projecting that one speakers behaviour onto an entire political movement. About the study, he should've said the study only talked about white privilege in the absence of class privilege. Yes there is white privilege but the biggest is wealth privilege. This would make people understand that yest there is a white privilege in the US but that doesn't mean that white people can't be treated poorly in the country, because white people can be poor too and face discrimination of police.
Yeah sorry but that guy is a baby. Grow up man.
@@ShinMadero lol OK 👍 If you give a shit about your cause and persuading people to your side, you can't talk to people like that. ESPECIALLY in front of a crowd.
I dunno, I have two cents that nobody asked for and this is it. Working class white folks often feel the same way as the caller. They often feel dismissed and unwelcome into the leftosphere because they don’t understand the plight of POC or haven’t experienced it. But they have experienced the struggles under capitalism. They have experience the struggles of being poor in America, or being poor and having to experience our judicial system.
What the caller is saying is bringing the working class white folks in and welcoming them, even if they don’t understand why they have white privilege or how it works because they don’t feel privileged at all.
These are valid points …but that’s not what the caller is alluding to lol ..all valid points though
@@waynecockerham7760 I think you're right, but it does feel like he could get there, like hes so close and searching for this insight. Like "Cool man, injustice sucks in general, just dont take it personally if the protests against it are not about poor white people from time to time."
@@grittyfaithgrittyfacts possibly but in order to do that he’d have to de center himself from the narrative which, coming from this call in I’m pretty skeptical of
@@waynecockerham7760 What I worry is that it serves the oligarchy to leave folks like this aside. And I just keep thinking that we have to keep figuring out how to build bridges. That said, I absolutely do not think its anyone's obligation to protect everyone from feeling uncomfortable, but maybe it would help grow the coalition. Once they're in the coalition for economic reasons, maybe then you work with them on understanding the experience of POC and the issue of white privelege. 🤔
You expressed exactly how I felt about this call. Well said, thank you.
As a White Trans-Woman I have to agree with the caller’s point. My experiences of being Trans have been disregarded because my life isn’t statistically as bad as a Black Trans Woman’s. People held up signs Black Trans Lives Matter, splitting a already minority group into two camps. But I have faced nearly all of the same statistical disadvantages that a Black Trans Woman would. I have been homeless, fired, disowned, sexually assaulted, denied medical care, mistreated by Police, physically assaulted, threatened. Instead of solidarity and working together to advance Transgender Protections, some felt we should ignore the struggles of some Trans People because it isn’t Statistically as bad as others. That is the point the caller is trying to make. We need to work together to further the lives of all, not put each other down and make assumptions that just because you are white you automatically had a better chance at life.
In our DEIA I have pushed hard to make this point that finding a common footing gets buy in. People will get offended when you push the message that they are somehow automatically better off solely due to their skin color. I am disappointed with Sam’s demeanor with this caller, the dog piling was unnecessary and proved his point. We can push for better lives for Blacks without putting White people down. You attract bees with honey as they say. We each have our own struggles, some worse than others, but we should never discredit one’s suffering because someone else may have it worse. We call it Oppression Olympics, No one Wins.
Jesus Christ, they sure did a great job of showing what he’s talking about through their responses, considering they didn’t bother trying to understand what he said at all and dismissed him as a whiny baby. All he was saying is that if you want to build solidarity so you can actually get politics done, maybe don’t act so hostile to your natural allies. And blm wasn’t only about black people. It was also about police reform, an area where poor white folks are a natural ally. Maybe more concrete stuff could have gotten done if people weren’t busy gatekeeping.
And the “anti white racism” in his story wasn’t the cops. It was the speaker bringing poor white folk up just to tell them to sit down and shut up, even though they’re on the same side. It wasn’t that hard to follow.
His point sums up to be “let’s not teach the truth because some people reacted badly to it”
Maybe the caller should check out Rev. Dr. Barber Poor People's Campaign. He is a black reverend he is out there trying to mobilize poor people of all colors to collectively join together and use their power to effectuate change,
Hi Mel. I'm the caller. I attended an event held by the Poor People's Campaign in my hometown. I'm a fan of his!
@@extrapolateyourself Grow a pair Man.. THEY hate you your history , your Achievmentsts, your children.. These people are scum.. Life will hit you and wake u up harder than i ever could put in words to try and show you that these people are your enemy.. Maybe your just too cowardly or too just convinced by their talking points . But mark my words that wake up call is coming soon ..
@@highpriest8571 "THEY hate you your history , your Achievmentsts, your children"
They didn't say any of this. You're strawmanning.
I think Sam would be better off checking out Rev Dr Barber. He might gain an understanding on how to not be so dismissive of others' struggles. Adolph Reed is also very good on this subject
I’ve been Black all my life nobody not even my parents told me what White privilege was, firstly no one person or example should define it and everyone experiences life differently. In his story about his Mom did I miss the part that she checked the person’s id? Part of White privilege is not having to take personal accountability at times.
Well, he seemed to think his mum was unfairly sacked. But it sounds to me like she did really break the law. He said she should have checked the person's id, and then said something along the lines of the police should have been concentrating on the *real* criminals. I mean, it sucks that she was going through a bad time when that happened, and that it affected his life so much.
@@paulhammond6978 there’s so many teenagers drinking and driving that end in fatality it’s a serious concern
@K. E. I don't think she should be put in jail and her son wondering what happened. All over a possibility? I know teens drink and drive and it is a problem but in reality there was no threat. She got screwed over by the system and the cops
Emma didn't even try to disguise her disdain for this man. She downplayed what happened to his mother - which was just appalling, btw. The caller may have been a bit off in his reasoning but he was temperate, polite and in the hands of someone more skilled in diplomacy, would have come closer to understanding where he was skewed with his thinking. But these guys (Sam not as badly) just dismissed his concerns out of hand and sneered at him. You don't want to push people like this away, you want to draw them closer by using genuine empathy and compassion (you know, the things that those on the left are *supposed* to have in spades) to understand *all* people and their experiences.
Caller is doing less of understanding all people and their experiences. His complaints are people being rude and white people not getting most of the attention.
“It’s not about you” is something my memory suggests folks said to Jesse Jackson on at least one occasion. That was not about not appreciating Jesse, but about some people getting such a habit of taking the spotlight that sometimes they do it when it’s not appropriate. An egregious example in relation to BLM was people trying to drown out the protest with shouts of, “White lives matter!”
I'm Sam's age. It's amazing that , in many respects, how little things have changed.
It’s why Carlin’s standup and Tupac’s songs still resonate 30+ years later. Nothing will change when every aspect of our society is geared towards making someone rich. We are still waging a war on drugs instead of a war on poverty. We still house 25% of the world’s prison population. Profits are still prioritized over the worker, and the rich are still defended by the people they’re taking advantage of. Black people are still arrested, convicted and sentenced to longer prison sentences at disproportionate rates. Politicians still claim more police will end crime. Poor people are blamed while corporation increase profits. The homeless are still used as a way to motivate the poor to accept ever worsening working conditions and shitty wages. And we still make families choose not paying bills or suffering a preventable death. Many white people still think the act of arresting a white person is the same as a black man being beaten or murdered by cops.
Am I the only one who doesn’t really feel sorry for his mom? Like, it sucks that she was fired and arrested. As a woman and a feminist, I genuinely feel for and relate to all single, working women, especially if they have children. That being said, his mum broke the law. She sold alcohol to a child without asking for ID. You don’t even know if this was the first time. A lot of times when these stings are done, it’s because a teenager was caught with alcohol, and the cops asked how they obtained it. If the kid tells the cops that there’s a woman who works at the liquor store outside of town who never asks for ID, it’s extremely likely that they are going to step a sting to try to catch her in the act. There’s no way to know for sure that this is what happened, the cops could have also just been going around and doing this periodically at many different establishments. Still, neither scenario is indicative of any sort of “profiling”. She wasn’t targeted because of her race. They didn’t even know what the person behind the counter would look like until they got there. There could have just as easily been a black or Asian person working that day, and the same thing would have happened to either of them...except I’m not convinced that these hypothetical women would have had the pleasant time in custody that your mother experienced.
Yeah and she got the bare minimum of a punishment, this is all based on a pretty tame police interaction
I reject the premise that education on implicit bias, history, awareness of self and others,etc is harmful, and I encourage people to read or watch Kathleen McNalty re the positive effects of such education. Most if not all of this pushback to SEL is simply personal defensiveness/baggage that we have to work through, like growing pains.
Wow this was a good conversation… Sam is such a great speaker and debater. I think it’s safe to say cold feet Crowder will never debate this man.
I literally can't tell if your being sarcastic
@@timwcronin Huh? How do you manage to think my comment as being sarcastic when I’m literally just saying Sam is a great speaker and debater. 🤦🏾♂️
@Tim Cronin lol poe's law strikes again. Nah i think the op is being genuine.
Emma is obnoxious, the caller was very polite and wanted to express his opinion based on a traumatising event he went through as a child and she mocks him!
Sounds like someone's mom forgot to do an important part of her job & got caught up..🤷🏾🤷🏾 The privilege was anything that would have happened had she not been yt..
THANK YOU!
This poor guy. His attitude makes me think that the book “White Fragility” may not have been as cringe as I originally thought. I used to coach football and have a naturally loud voice that carries. I was at the main George Floyd protest in MPLS the day after his murder. As our group marched, different segments of the crowd were chanting and our portion of the crowd was a little quiet. They needed someone with a loud voice to lead the chant. My white ass used my coach voice to yell “No Justice No Peace” as loud as I could and the crowd, full of black, brown and white people responded “Prosecute the Police” until we were all hoarse, but we didn’t stop. No one stopped me or told me to shut up because I was white. We were all protesting his death and the mistreatment of black Americans at the hands of police together. It wasn’t about me. Tensions were high and I knew I couldn’t understand fully. But we were all in solidarity with each other.
The woman he’s talking about sounds like she was saying “aww poor white people,” not referring to who’re people who *are poor.* He willfully misheard it because of his obsession with his own anecdote
White privilege simplified is the ability to go into any establishment, any place in the country, and not be discriminated against because of the color of your skin. That's really what it comes down to. Even the poorest white person has this privilege.
And yet the study cited shows there is discrimination based on the intersection of race and class.
If you tell a poor white person they’re privileged, they instantly put their walls up. It doesn’t matter how “technically” correct your argument is, people need to feel heard and important tif you want them to support you. Upper middle class whites telling lower class whites to shut up and recognize their privilege is ironically being classist and bigoted. Just because you’re a well off white person that has time to spare to talk about black issues doesn’t mean poor white people with struggles are instantly gonna join the bandwagon too.
I do notice there’s a classist system between coastal educated white people and “uneducated” poor white people. The coastal elite believes that their entire success is predicated on being white, therefore poor white people are poor because they are inferior. They Totally ignores the intersection between class and race
This is why Intersectionality is so important. Yes, you can be white and be oppressed. No, that doesn't mean that 'white privilege' stops existing the moment the oppression happens. Intersectionality describes the various ways we interface with society based on our demographics, and how society specifically reacts to those attributes of ourselves either via privilege or oppression.
His mother didn’t check the ID, that’s her job and she failed. Nobody knelt on her neck, causing her to die, she wasn’t brutally beaten. This guy is literally blaming others for things they have nothing to do with.
What a shitty take. People aren't expecting to be 100% always on point, always fully rational, never tired, never make mistakes. Your logic justifies lack of any social security, because well poor people, just be smarter! Get a job! Nobody forces you to not learn programming.
When you go so far left that you literally loop back to right wing positions.
"I'm a leftist."
This guy's David Feldman impression is incredible.
I live in Florida out in the woods I work in agriculture I have been lower middle class all my life. I here this resentment all the time. I however do not understand why the people of my class think that It is more important to own the libs than to support candidates that you know are going to work to keep and fight for Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. These programs are very important to people in my class. Nothing is more important to a lower class person than these programs. The right is using this idea that talking about racism is hurting poor white people while they are talking about pulling the rug out from under them. I hate this culture war nonsense the right is using this to get people to vote against their own self interest.
Exactly! Owning the libs cause some uppity lefty hurt your feelings is like cutting the nose to spite the face.
Exactly the callers point. The left has an optics problem when it comes to poor white people or working white people.
@@timwcronin All I care about is protecting Social security and Medicare. I am egalitarian and also care about voting rights. All the culture war BS I don't care anything about that. It's about being able to live with dignity at old age. I am 68 years old still working. I have a 37 year old daughter that has health issues. I have to help her. I have no pension and very little savings. I have worked for 50 plus years paying social security and I am still paying into it. Any party that has part of their platform to do anything negative to Social Security I am not going to vote for. I vote blue all the way.
I think Emma's reactions here are probably exactly what the caller is talking about: the mocking, the demeaning and belittling attitude. I generally don't like to use this kind of language, but she's coming off as kind of an insensitive bitch. Which I don't like to see especially from her because she's generally pretty good, but this was a big L on her part. Even though Sam disagreed with the caller, he at least had the decency to hear him out and treat his concerns with some seriousness.
People who are on the fence about these issues, when they interact with someone who treats them the way Sam did, at the very least they'll remain unmoved, they'll sit on that fence, in the worst case scenario.
Those same people interacting with someone who treats them like Emma did are probably persuaded in abandoning the Left.
I don't think the Left broadly has a big issue with its advocates expressing anti-white sentiment. But too many WILL cover for those who do, or sweep them under the rug.
EASIEST win for this call would have been for Sam and Emma to go "if that's what that speaker actually said, then yeah that was really dumb, and we shouldn't promote those kind of ideas within our ideology."
DAMN. I'm a black dude who can't get pulled over in LA without getting asked if I'm in a gang or pulling my shirt off to have my tats reviewed. That being said: Sam and Emma (mostly sam) were so concerned with rhetorically pinning him down in advance that they NOT only missed out on receiving a Salient critique but actually kinda PROVED the caller's point. He's making a point about white individuals feeling that the left dismisses their concerns/and struggles.
The caller is NOT making the claim that white people are systemically oppressed or that the ramifications are at the policy level. He's making the claim that we can acknowledge white privilege exists and not demean white people that would otherwise be receptive of leftist politics. He's talking about adding poor disaffected whites to the coalition because EMOTIONALLY the right welcomes them and the left in the instances the caller is calling attention to make disaffected whites feel rejected.
He even acknowledged which progressive politicians are most effectively helping poor white people more than conservatives are.
I hope the caller sees this. I totally agree with him.
Thanks, Joseph. I really appreciate it.
I am a dude from Montreal who almost certainly would have been killed or severely injured for things I did to police officers if I weren't a white kid from the suburbs, but I still going to make a point of agreeing with you here because I was rather repulsed by Emma and Matt's behaviour here. Sam at least seemed more fixated on defending the honour of the liberal left from the accusation that the left had an anti-white problem related to the concept of 'white-privilege', but Emma just mocking the guy like a baby was completely uncalled for, and Matt's attempt at joining in and admonishing the guy for an argument he wasn't making was dumb. LIke you said, they basically made the caller's point for him.
"He's making a point about white individuals feeling that the left dismisses their concerns/and struggles."
He claimed that's his point, and his example was one speaker at one rally saying one thing. We can infer that every other speaker at every other rally he attended were supportive of his concerns and struggles.
*"The caller is NOT making the claim that white people are systemically oppressed or that the ramifications are at the policy level. He's making the claim that we can acknowledge white privilege exists and not demean white people that would otherwise be receptive of leftist politics. "*
Precisely. Liberal progressives don't have to be class reductionists, but it is at their own peril that they ignore the ramifications of alienating the working class working poor (white or otherwise) by being so easily cowed by the unnecessary aggression of activists preoccupied with the hierarchical ranking of suffering. A mushy "all lives matter" everyone-suffers-equally narrative is not the only other option outside of telling (generally) more privileged groups to shut up and sit down. Even if the intention is not to minimize the struggle of people in groupings considered relatively privileged, these comments will be weaponized by propagandists on the right.
The caller didn't do himself any favours when he attempted to refute Sam's argument that it wasn't politics. It would be more accurate to say the caller was talking about communication, rhetoric, and optics than anything legislative (which is what Sam meant by politics). But these things matter, especially now when everyone is being filmed or screenshotted for propaganda purposes.
I also find the suggestion that it was a single speaker at a rally of fifteen highly disingenuous. This brow-beating and intimidation is everywhere, especially in online activist groups/social media, and I have yet to see a purpose to any of it. It seems more of an indication of activist grift posturing than anything politically revolutionary.
For example (and this is but one example, not the one time someone stepped on my toes) back in March, when the Will Smith/Chris Rock incident occurred, I happened upon a thread by a left-wing influencer account on Twitter with tens of thousands of followers, that was claiming the criticism of Smith was ablenoir. They went on to claim that we should be particularly outraged by the attack on her given that Jada Pinkett suffers from an autoimmune disease and so many people with autoimmune diseases died during the COVID-19 pandemic.
I knew I was wading into a mindfield, but I felt that so long as I said nothing about their general complaint, it would be no harm to correct them concerning what type of autoimmune condition it was, as I have suffered with alopecia areata for thirty years and know that my immune system is not compromised (or not working) but OVERACTIVE to the point it was attacking my hair follicles. For correcting the polite/perfectly civil non-condescending correction of what I assumed was an innocent mischaracterization, I was attacked by a group of social justice warrior types who followed the account in question. They told me to "get fucked" "go fuck yourself" etc. because I was white and had no place to comment on a black issue, even though I was the only person in the thread who actually suffered from the condition. Also, not one of the people who dismissed me for being white was not white themselves. All three of the people who attacked me for being a white man were young white women.
I am politically far-left and do not take aggressively misguided imbeciles like this seriously. Certainly not about to change my world view because of superficial sophomoric social justice cringe I encounter at school or online, but I can't help but think of how this same exchange would impact someone who was heretofore apolitical or someone who could potentially swing to the left. There is a good chance that they might be dissuaded from seeing the left as being interested in anything that falls outside of chronically online idpol framing, especially when this is the messaging from the right. We have to be able to admit that this behaviour is more destructive than it is helpful.
On the bright side, I feel like I see less of this with Gen-Z. It really seems like it may have been more of a Millennial trait (and I say that as a Millennial/GenX cusper), so maybe it will recede with time.
I would love to have Sam try to get professor Coley who ran the study this guy was referring to on the show.
That's an errand to nowhere.
The study took 1100 'social liberals', where, in the conversation, Manchin is being described as a social liberal, and this guy is taking the outcome of a study about social liberals and applying it to the left, that the study wasn't specifically about, in a broad way.
Let's just email the professor. I'm hitting him up.
So many times when right wingers find a study they like, the authors strongly disagree with the right's conclusions of the study.
@@RigelOrionBeta the caller wasn’t a right winger. He’s a long time listener to Majority Report and was attending a George Floyd protest against racist policing.
@@RetrousseRaptor so he claims. He was very reluctant (twice) to admit white privilege exists, as well as refusing to say how the concept should be approached. Also claimed he was upset with how 'poor white people' are treated but often let slip by talking about 'white people' instead. The conflation was very concerning. All was a bit suspicious to any fair listeners.
Edit: you state he attended a George Floyd protest against 'racist policing'. The key word being 'racist'. If we accept that, why is he upset that one speaker said this protest isn't about poor white people? Doesn't add up.
Something doesn't add up in this guy's story.
Selling alcohol to minors is considered a serious offense by law enforcement, and it's no surprise that the guest's mother was also let go because she has proven to be a liability due to the fact that liquor stores can incur massive fines for selling to minors.
This didn't happen because she was working class, it was because she was being negligent. Whether or not it was an "accident" isn't relevant, checking id should be second nature to liquor store employees. The idea that she just so happened to check id AT THAT MOMENT seems like too much of a coincidence to me, and indicates that this wasn't the first time she hasn't checked id.
Least to say, his only anecdote has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Obviously I am playing couch psychologist when I say this, but I feel like he has internalized some resentment from this incident and has used it to reinforce some preexisting prejudices.
Saw this live and yelled at the tv lol
Now, I'm yelling at my phone! 😂
My mom was fired when she put her employer’s business at risk when she broke the law and was arrested her for selling alcohol to a minor therefore white people are tweaked just as bad if not worse than black people. Also I went to a rally for George Floyd following yet another unarmed black man being executed by police where one of the speakers made it a point to ask poor white people to set aside the issues they may be dealing with so we can all come together and deal with this very real issue that’s plague the black community since the days of Reconstruction following the Civil War, and I was butt hurt that she’d have the nerve to ask me to let go of the feelings I have about my mom being arrested for selling alcohol to a minor. That woman asking me to set aside my anecdotes is proof the Democrats are racist towards white people. Lmao. That caller was so hurt over his anecdotes that he was completely oblivious. I can almost guarantee that speaker wasn’t dismissive like this poor guy imagines she was. It was not just a protest for the killing of George Floyd. That crowd gathered because George Floyd was yet another black man murdered by cops, and she was urging poor white people to set their issues to the side for the time being so we can come together to effect change to stop the disproportionate killing of black men at the hands of cops. Something that would have addressed the issues this dude had. Police reform aimed at ending police violence and the killing of unarmed black men directly impacts the mistreatment of all citizens. But this guy is blinded to only see what has impacted his life. To get so upset that someone would have the nerve to ask him to set his issues aside so we could end police brutality like his anecdote equals black men being murdered by police is peak white privilege. “My single mom not being let go with a warning after selling alcohol to a minor trumps your community being over policed and the young men in that community being murdered by police, so how dare you assume I’d want to come together to put an end to police brutality.”
It’s crazy why this is so hard to understand.
This perfectly sums up this caller’s perspective. He ignored EVERYTHING that was going on to find a reason to be aggrieved and make it about himself.
Conservatives shoot down and diminish feelings all the time and focus on the “facts of the matter” devoid of empathy…just like these comments.
Consistently victim blaming (“well she WAS selling alcohol to minors, so she’s not innocent”)
These commenters are so skewed in their own biases that they reflexively patronize rather than listening and learning about a someone else’s experience different than their own.
@Brad Meyers: You have written such a beautifully accurate statement.
The claim that being poor means a lack of racially-afforded privilege misses that "white privilege" is about more than ease of social mobility.
This conversation would've been right up Michael Brooks' alley and he would've made it more productive, I think. In part because he would've found some merit in the point the caller raised (cf his conversations with Adolph Reed) and know how to link and explain class and race in a pedagogic, non dismissive way. This caller wasn't a troll and explained his issues with "White privilege" discourse in good faith. Politics is not just policy, Sam. Political rhetoric and discourse is important if you care about winning people over and not just "being right".
After all, the ruling class has been cynically using and weaponizing the sectarianism of identity politics against the left for far too long.
I don't think the caller needs a lesson on privilege, he expressed understanding unprompted. I think the breakdown comes watching each member on MR prejudice the caller in a variety of ways.
Also, i think Michael was the only one from a working class background.
IF it is the case that some people are getting the idea that structural racism is the only structural factor that causes poverty and misery, then that’s a big problem. My life experience isn’t large enough to judge that people are in fact getting that idea.
A black person hurt my feelings one time so I'm just gonna go join the Republican party and cry in a corner. Someone get my binkie! 😭😭😭😭
Sam was at his best in this discussion, his absolute progressive best.
and emma at her worst
The caller is right and the woman’s condescending (sorry I don’t know her name) response to his rally story is very telling. I very much doubt she scrutinises the political experiences of black people in such an insensitive way. It cannot be that qualitative experience be so important when a black person is talking, or someone who agrees with you is talking, yet you belittle a white working class comrade’s experience because he questions a fairly controversial academic concept (for many reasons, least of how marketable it has been as the new ‘inclusivity training’ and as a brand for corporate to exploit). There in this clip is a microcosm of what the caller was referring to, it actually played out just as he explained.
✊🏽✊🏻✊🏿✊🏾 ✊without class solidarity, nothing will change
@@Charles-pf7zy so true, otherwise we are just crabs in a bucket. Reading back my own comment, just to be clear to anyone reading that, I 100% believe in structural racism. I just believe that pointing out that poor white people don’t have it as bad as poor black people doesn’t help anyone materially in our fight against social injustice. Sometimes comfortable white liberals lean on these differences, because they make money off these differences. Whether a book deal or a RUclips channel, social division gets traction. Further focusing on telling people to not be racist is easier than really pushing for change that might hit them financially. You cannot subscribe to American individualism without being a shallow supporter of minority rights.
@@oriongriffiths3030 I feel like there’s some latent self hatred college educated white liberals have. I think they direct it towards rural white Americans so they can allieve some of their guilt. I just get the impression that there’s something deeper going on in their minds when they sneer at rural whites. They want to be “one of the good whites”.
I'm white, grew up poor and on Welfare, one of five children of a single mom. The cops where I grew up were often total d-bags. Even then, I don't make a critical social movement about the value of black human lives about me, nor about anything as insignificant as my pasty white freckled skin. I'd rather help drive the movement forward to save lives.
I remember being sickened by Danny Shaver being subjected to a demented murder cop's twisted game of Simon Says before being gunned down without remorse, his girlfriend forced to step over his body at gunpoint. But the Black Lives Matter movement does not diminish that tragedy. Instead, the movement is focusing its efforts on saving the lives of black people who are still being murdered by cops at a frightening rate, disproportionate to their population, often for absolutely no reason whatsoever, never mind if they're even given a chance to comply. One boy was shot dead literally two seconds after the cops rolled up on him. No questions, just murdered on the spot. And I don't have it in me to list every murdered black person. There are dozens within the last few years alone. It'll just make me angry and I need to sleep soon.
This social movement ultimately helps everybody. But black people need help the most right now. Because they are in the most danger. Marching for George Floyd, and every black citizen killed before and after him, was a march for Danny Shaver, too. But Floyd was rightfully the sole focus at the time.
I love how succinctly Emma excoriated the caller's entire premise. It was well deserved.
I’m sure you won’t see this but I’m so sorry you went through that. I experienced this with my partner who was taken into police custody and I thought he was dead. It’s horrible and terrifying. People have not been kind enough to you about this pain and trauma.
Yes. The class solidarity needs to be a bigger convo when the time calls for it. Let's get the reforms first and then we can focus on the bigger picture, which is class solidarity.
Well, we do see this which proves that progressives are about genuine free speech as opposed to conservative snowflakes. Yes, I can grant sympathy for his and your situation. Can you then grant sympathy to black people who may have experienced what you have, but to a far higher degree?
@@rodhmu my partner is Black. I just meant when you go through that you understand.
Dawg this guys mom got arrested for selling a minor alcohol she’s not a victim
@@tednockowitz7749 that's what puzzles me. It was kind of Sam and crew to not go there, but his mom broke the law. He said it was against the store's policy and was fired. I am sorry his mom was going through harsh times, but she fucked up.
The guy didn't articulate his point very well and Sam got really antagonistic really fast but it seems pretty clear what he's trying to advocate for is more empathy for _everyone_ in the class struggle. That protest wasn't the best place to look for that because it was about BLM but I do agree with him that there is a not so insignificant portion of the left that does get antagonistic towards privileged groups, ignores anything they have to contribute, and treat them as a monolith rather than extending some sympathy or empathy towards individuals.
And I disagree with Sam that there is no data. People like Jordan Peterson and Jimmy Dore draw people in precisely because they speak to those disaffected folks who might otherwise join the progressive movement because they have a lot of the same struggles and are looking for a solution and someone to blame. But then certain kinds of rhetoric on the left alienates them and Dore and Peterson direct them at women and the left as the source of their woes and that leads into a pipeline that goes directly into right wing populism. Yes there is data; those fans are the data. By not being as inclusive as we should be all the time, we drive potential allies into the arms of the enemy and they're happy to capitalize on it. And this will affect our fight.
Even though he's offended, his heart is in the right place.
I think that encounter for his mom really hurt him, but it doesn't undercut the facts. It's cast and class.
As opposed to Emma's. 18:02
@@anacc3257 Emma was quite right, the guy was offended because someone pointed out that a George Floyd protest was about issues faced by black people, not him.
@@johnadams9314 Ultimately it was about police brutality which stems from a number of sources. You want to cut out every other one go for it.
@@joshshultz1250 police brutality towards whom?
I'm black, this was incredibly funny. I couldn't conceive of how he could victimize himself into 400 years of oppression. Shout out to the producers for screening gold.
It sounds as if “social liberals” in that study is (as it says on the can) denoting _liberals_ , not leftists. For more than a century, leftism has implied a class consciousness that calls shenanigans on the liberal fable of meritocracy, not a worldview that parrots it.
It is indicative of, and reveals the level of this individual's white privilege that, because of what happened to his mother, he suddenly feels what black people have felt all of their lives.
In other words, as he experiences racial equality, he begins to understand the unfairness of treatment by the police in a way that white people generally have not had to.
It's also revealing that he doesn't have the empathy to understand that he has been shown something about racial inequality that he never did before because he had his privilege.
He feels less privileged and more equal and he believes that that's unfair. Only a privileged individual can have that feeling.
Welcome to a more just world with all I can say to him.
I think what a lot of white middle class leftists and liberals don't understand is that the "yeah, it sucks to be a poor white person but it sucks much more to be a poor black person", while absolutely true, comes across as completely dismissive and overestimates the average person's ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes, particularly when that person isn't getting their needs met. My parents were uneducated and unemployed when I was growing up and there were plenty of times we were on the verge of homelessness or struggling to put food on the table. Whether or not a black person (or anyone else) is worse off than me in that situation is not as compelling as I think some people it is, in how I experienced that disadvantage or offered any relief with the suffering.
I hate to say it, but I feel like Michael had a much better take on this than Sam or Emma. Perhaps that has to do with Michael experiencing economic disadvantage, when as far as I know Emma comes from quite an economically privileged background and Sam's career has afforded him a comfortable life.
Also, I kinda wish sometimes these sorts of calls weren't met with mocking and complete disdain. Particularly when the caller doesn't seem to be a complete right winger. As far as I'm aware, everyone in the studio on this day are white. You can take on the labor of trying to have a conversation and win this person over to your point of view in a respectful manner.
Sam's parents are lawyers as well.
💯 - wish they could meet callers with empathy. It was great when Michael would take the time.
I'm having a lot of thoughts. So I keep going back to the study. The PROBLEM the caller has is that education about white privilege has caused less sympathy for poor white people. What is that compared against? Did they previously do a study before the education and found that there was more or equal sympathy for white poor people? Based on racism, I'd guess there was more before. But either way, as Sam said, that's not a net negative. People learning that privilege negatively affects POC is a net positive. If it's at the sacrifice of sympathy for poor white people, what is actually wrong about that? It doesn't mean there's literally no sympathy for all poor people. But to be fair, certain people will never care about the poor.
A study that used social liberals, not people from the left.
Let's just apply the outcome anyway.
They had two groups. One was given a reading on white privilege, the other was not (control). The control group expressed roughly the same level of sympathy for poor whites as they did for poor blacks, with a slight bias in favor of poor blacks. The group of social liberals who were given a reading on white privilege had their sympathy for poor whites drop to the same level as social conservatives (their sympathy for poor blacks remained approximately the same as in the control).
Nate's inability to see the irony while crying "why isn't a BLACK Lives Matter rally about poor whites" shows that he's benefited quite a bit from White Privilege.
We have a tendency to seek out validation for what we believe. We need to keep an open mind to what we believe.
Exactly! And the right feeds of this. They don’t want to give you answers, they want to feed into your preconceived notions and keep you resentful. It’s important to open to ideas and expect your ideas to be challenged without getting your feelings hurt.
@@firefox1234ize are you open to the idea privilege is akin to force the vote or define the police?
No Black person has EVER complained about a family member spending 1 night in jail for a crime actually committed.
I once spent a whole weekend in jail because a judge forgot to sign something. I was arrested and transferred thru 3 separate county jails between Friday afternoon after court and Monday morning. The same judge said "oops... You're free to go".
That's three strip searches, some low level sexual assault " standard procedures " and not to mention 72+hrs of false imprisonment. All on a quashed traffic warrant.
And you have every right to be upset about it. That judge should lose his job over that. His mother wasn't a criminal, and their "sting" operation was just for show and accomplished nothing. He has a right to be upset too.
@@maxsmart9116 His mother COMMITTED A CRIME so she made herself subject to imprisonment. If the duties and responsibilities of being a convenience store clerk are too much then so be it.
Carding people for tobacco and alcohol IS the job.
I reject your false equivalency.
@B H what, that white privilege exists? Nobody feels less sympathy for the mom because she's white, it's because she committed a crime. But I DO see comments here excusing her from the crime, being more sympathetic than they should... Wonder why.
@B H I know what I'm saying and it's about privilege. To complain about such a trivial brush with the law on the guilty side. The Cops wouldn't send a legal person to purchase alcohol.
It's just a bit of a reach for some of us.
Cops have been mistreating me since childhood and haven't stopped, not to mention random entitled folks and the combination of the two.
9:37 In this caller’s story he said his “mom’s treatment while in the custody of the police was not bad, relatively speaking”. So as a non-POC, she *was treated better than a POC. The treatment of POC while in police custody *was the exact point of the Geo. Floyd protest!! So this caller could listen to this recording and perhaps rethink his childhood, storied grievance?
This guy: "Black Lives Matter" excluded me; and I took that personally.