You are correct about the average distance of law enforcement sniper engagements being under 100 yards. Many of the other smaller faster cartridges aren’t seeing significant advantages inside of 100 yards versus the 308, but the biggest reason is over penetration. With the correct bullet selection for the application (Open air, windshield, hurricane glass, body armor, cranial vault, etc.), the 308 provides better options to reduce the risk of over penetration versus something smaller like a 6 mm.
I absolutely LOVE my Razor Gen III 6x36x56 EBR-7D. I have it mounted on my custom RimX 22 lr built by Kenny at DPG. This combo is a hammer. Fantastic scope
There’s many factors for LE using 308 for long range. The availability and price is a big one, and everyone has it. Uniformity, you have extra ammo for yourself, but it’s also for your partners. If you’re incapacitated and cannot use your equipment, that equipment is now your partners equipment.
I have a strike eagle with the ebr-7c and I love it. I use it on my hunting rifle and the biggest down side is when you’re down at low zoom it’s hard to see the reticle at low light but that’s also why I got the strike eagle over the venom. It’s illuminated so it helps so I can see the reticle better
The utterly simple mil dot reticle is still what I prefer for quick ranging as well as holds. Being free of clutter and having a cross hair intersection makes it easy to understand exacting aim. I used such a reticle for a portion of shooting to win the American High Power Rifleman Award in Long-Range, although most of my long range shooting has been with match iron sights.
41:46 You did mention earlier though. The specific applications when it will matter. Ie. Ranging. Ie. Specifically judging the size of the target, at range, if you can measure the Mils in scope, and have a known accurate range (or reasonable estimate) To get an accurate estimate of the size of the animal, or antlers, or other factor.
That, I think, is a neat bonus. Just borrowing from the podcast that y'all did showcasing something like the Geo Ballistics app. And rangefinders. And the ability to have profiles, and print range cards. I wonder, if that's not a profile that could be reverse engineered. Target rack minimum size. (or other criteria.) Scope info. Ranges. = Measurements in scope.
21:33 You can hypothetically, use the wind subtensions, for other adjustments, Ie. If you were in a scenario and the target is moving at a speed of X, you could have a leading calculation, Or, you could walk the shot, in sequence, If holding 6 was not catching the broad side of the moving barn, You could extrapolate that you need to hold 7, 8, or maybe 9. Just, one possibility. While, we don't necessarily take shots against moving targets in hunting, Less ideally, at least, And not at high speeds... It it the other scenario, if for aanny reason, your target is moving.
38:53 Although, in the Geo Ballistics podcast, y'all mentioned the benefit to knowing bullet flight time, at a given range. If you consider the target speed at a given range, if the elk is stepping, for example, And you know how far it can step during your shot flight time... You would know if you need to lead. And that's a simple estimate, just to keep you close to center, at all, if the elk is walking. At a given range. You might set the ranges on the range card, where you need to consider 1 half MoA (mark), or 1 Mil, (everyone else) JK At range x, a walking elk could step 1 half MoA during my shot. At range Y, it could step 1 full MoA during my shot. Etc etc etc.
Another advantage of this and other FFP reticles is that you can use it to zero the rifle. Take your 3 or 5 shots. Find the center point. Move the rifle so that the center of reticle is now in the center of impacts. Measure how many MOA down or up to get back to x axis. And how many MOA marks left or right. Make those adjustments. So, you don't have to measure inches and then calculate reticle clicks. Do what the reticle shows you.
Considering the reticle is just an Etching on the glass - how does vortex justify charging substantially more money for the same scope with the EBR-7D compared to say a plex reticle. The production cost is the same yet you gouge the customer for the EBR-7D reticle. Nightforce does the exact same thing.
Price is not solely a function of manufacturing cost. If customers value one profit more than another they’ll be willing to pay more and prices will likely reflect that, basic supply and demand!
If you think it’s price gouging you are free to make your own scope and etch that glass yourself, after you fail and find out it’s not as simple as you think then come on back to the real world.
@@jaydunbar7538 In the real world, you don't sit down at your workbench and build am optic - you contact one of the many manufacturers in China that already make them and put in an order with your specifications. Many major optics manufactures use the same production facilities in China and the only difference in price between the products is the level of quality control they specified for their batch.
Etched reticles are much more expensive to manufacture than wire reticles (plex/BDC reticles) because of the complexity of not only etching it to be perfect on a super small lens but also to fit within the specifications for the optical designs as the tolerances have to be much tighter. It also adds a lens within the optic, making that optical design more complex, whereas the wire reticle does not require an additional lens, just the proper-sized wire filament.
@@VortexNation Thank you kindly for taking the time to reply with the detailed information. It's going to be a lot easier for me to explain the price difference (and sell your products) to our customers now that I have these details!
Might not always have all those components but. Again. Even just if the spotter knows the point you are aiming at. And can use the Reticle data to give you information on your point of impact. Even without laser precision. But. Maybe it's most applicable when zeroing in a rifle for long range accuracy. Or correcting issues with accuracy. On range, with a spotter, no reason not to use a simple laser to pinpoint your point of aim, for the camera. And then to designate from the spotter, the point of impact. For the camera, and the shooter, to evaluate. If it helps orient the scope, rifle, and perhaps identify parallax or barrel problems. If the scope is zeroed correctly,then you move on to other potential issues. Potential
26:52 If you have a spotter, watching your shot, That can also help. If they know the point you were aiming at. Or, if they can spot the point of impact, and laser point the point of impact. Whatever. It can inform you exactly where you hit compared to where you aimed. In one example. If I shoot with a red dot laser point. And you spot with a green dot laser point. You can see my point of aim, precisely, and you can designate my point of impact precisely. That might be useful, if the recoil made 'staying scope on target through recoil' Difficult.
I just got the the SE 3-18 scope. the illumination really helps when on 3 x it give a pretty use able cross hair. Haven't tryed it pass 100yd or hunted yet but I feel I will have no issue hunting with it this fall. See if your local store has one to look through
ebr-7c is a great reticle for alot of things, for hunting, the ONLY complaint I have is low light, in dark timber or shooting at dark targets. The reticle pretty much disapears on a dark target BUT if you zoom up the magnifications and get it larger it is easier to see. Other than that factor I love it. Mine is NOT illuminated though. The ALUM will be perfect!
I'm using an EBR-7C 3-18 SE here in the UK on Red, Fallow and Sika and I have to say it's fabulous. I'm shooting out to 350m and it's crystal clear and definitely not too busy plus the illumination is very usable. I also really like how compact it is - Love It !
I have the 3-18 ffp illuminated. I really like the scope but when you’re scouting with your rifle scope you’re pretty much just looking through the upper half mostly. It was my first nice scope and wasn’t sure what I wanted. I still am a big fan of it, but after finding out how much low light spotting I end up doing with my rifle scope and that I usually dial vertical anyways I think it is actually too busy for my liking. Once I can afford it I think I’ll be putting it on a bench gun and using a different hunting scope
@@sundance260you should buy some binoculars, really shouldn’t scout with the rifle scope. Other hunters really don’t like having rifles pointed at them
That's a card one could have. 1 moa = x Milrad If my scope is using mils I could just, have a little conversion card for quick reference. Shouod In the case you mentioned, get you rainfly close. See the rock face and the lone massive Maple? Yes. Alright 15 MoA to the right. 2 MoA down. (checks card) (follows Milrad conversion reference) Target acquired. Thank you.
36:51 Case by case custom yes. But. Another place for a custom cheat sheet. Range 100 = 1 Mil per speed x. Range 200 = 3 Mil per speed x. Whatever. PRecalculated estimates, using your rifle your ammunition, etc.
23:55 However. In your example. At any given range, you CNA use the formula, to get a Milrad or Moa Target size in scope, to meet or exceed your target size. Ie. If you need confidence that the moose rack exceeds 50 inches. Laser Range for precision. Enter the Regulation size as your target. And it should give you a minimum, Milrad or Moa scope picture, to compare to the antlers/rack in your scope. Then you know, ok, this is very close. Let's take a. Moment to be certain. Let's double check the math. Or. No, this is definitely fewer pips than I need for my minimum. Or, yes, thus is definitely larger than my minimum. Bonus points... We can do some advance work, with a range card, for minimum rack size at Range A, B, C, D, E etc etc. Right? So, at range 200 meters, a rack minimum 50 inches across... (125 cm across ? If my mental math estimate is close?) Would appear to be X Milrad in my scope.(include magnification, if using the type of Reticle that shifts with the zoom, right) (clearly this Reticle, stays the same as the target, and we zoom in on the picture and Reticle. So the Reticle appears to get smaller as we zoom out.) Especially, if we have calculated a maximum range, for my comfident precision with that rifle/ammunition, Or a maximum range for the Terminal Velocity? At range X? If that's, perhaps 750 meters. Or 450 meters. Or, perhaps it's 300 meters. For my Xbow, it could be 50 meters maximum. I could have the card printed for 10 meter increments for my scope picture, to be confident in estimating rack size at a glance. Then when we see it looks close, we can take that moment to double check and wait for the perfect presentation across the windage in the Reticle. And get that measurement.
Vortex I would recommend add scales to measure standard torso width and standing heights. You could also add moving or wind guides in the tree by making them a different shape like a Dimond or triangle. Also would love to see something to help shoot when on the lowest power like a horseshoe or open x. I almost went with the Meopta 3-18 because of their retical. Personally I do like having the whole tree illuminated, we'll see if i ever need it.
The hash marks are used for measuring, why clutter the scope more? If you already don’t know how to use it properly the. You wouldn’t know how to use other things added to measure with either
It's the same bro, fractions are used plenty with metric, but the context is different, as in 1/10km equals 100 meters, it's just a division of a unit at the base 10.
Trust me. You will never find a person who say 1/10 kilometer. We don't use fractions with metric, it is one of the reasons it is a superior system. Being a Gen. X Canadian i think in both metric and Imperial. @@ciceroromero15
I love the gen 3 razor 6-36 but I don’t think it is great option for law enforcement snipers because it is to high of a magnification which reduces field of view. The gen 2 3-18 razor was a much better choice for law enforcement because of that field of view and 3-18 magnification is plenty for the distances that LE shoot at. Too bad the 3-18 is gone now
@@DanielReyes-hz1qk I don't personally, but I can see how a little less "clutter" would be preferred by some. I want all the information possible in the reticle. It suits my use case better.
@@userJohnSmith What's your reticle preference? I've looked through a Leupold Mark 5 with the PR2-MIL reticle, that seemed nice but I've not shot with one
@@DanielReyes-hz1qk Haven't shot either. I am a fan of the EBR-7 (so far it's substantially better than Vortex's others and the Leupold stuff I've shot) though. Initially it wasn't my favorite but it grew on me once I got behind the gun.
I liked that explanation of dialing mils like dimes. Made it very easy to do the math in the head quickly.
You are correct about the average distance of law enforcement sniper engagements being under 100 yards. Many of the other smaller faster cartridges aren’t seeing significant advantages inside of 100 yards versus the 308, but the biggest reason is over penetration. With the correct bullet selection for the application (Open air, windshield, hurricane glass, body armor, cranial vault, etc.), the 308 provides better options to reduce the risk of over penetration versus something smaller like a 6 mm.
Just love the analogy of quarters versus dimes to figure out how much money you had, that brought it all home for me.
I absolutely LOVE my Razor Gen III 6x36x56 EBR-7D. I have it mounted on my custom RimX 22 lr built by Kenny at DPG. This combo is a hammer. Fantastic scope
I was literally just searching on this topic last night lol. Great job guys thanks for the wonderful podcast!
There’s many factors for LE using 308 for long range. The availability and price is a big one, and everyone has it. Uniformity, you have extra ammo for yourself, but it’s also for your partners. If you’re incapacitated and cannot use your equipment, that equipment is now your partners equipment.
I have a strike eagle with the ebr-7c and I love it. I use it on my hunting rifle and the biggest down side is when you’re down at low zoom it’s hard to see the reticle at low light but that’s also why I got the strike eagle over the venom. It’s illuminated so it helps so I can see the reticle better
The utterly simple mil dot reticle is still what I prefer for quick ranging as well as holds. Being free of clutter and having a cross hair intersection makes it easy to understand exacting aim. I used such a reticle for a portion of shooting to win the American High Power Rifleman Award in Long-Range, although most of my long range shooting has been with match iron sights.
I have the Razor Gen III in MOA on my Bergara Ridgeback in 300 PRC and love it. Thanks for all the info.
41:46
You did mention earlier though.
The specific applications when it will matter.
Ie.
Ranging.
Ie.
Specifically judging the size of the target, at range, if you can measure the Mils in scope, and have a known accurate range (or reasonable estimate)
To get an accurate estimate of the size of the animal, or antlers, or other factor.
That, I think, is a neat bonus.
Just borrowing from the podcast that y'all did showcasing something like the Geo Ballistics app.
And rangefinders.
And the ability to have profiles, and print range cards.
I wonder, if that's not a profile that could be reverse engineered.
Target rack minimum size. (or other criteria.)
Scope info.
Ranges.
= Measurements in scope.
as someone who is just getting into long range shooting, I would love to see a complete tutorial on the reticle. I very basic version
21:33
You can hypothetically, use the wind subtensions, for other adjustments,
Ie.
If you were in a scenario and the target is moving at a speed of X, you could have a leading calculation,
Or, you could walk the shot, in sequence,
If holding 6 was not catching the broad side of the moving barn,
You could extrapolate that you need to hold 7, 8, or maybe 9.
Just, one possibility.
While, we don't necessarily take shots against moving targets in hunting,
Less ideally, at least,
And not at high speeds...
It it the other scenario, if for aanny reason, your target is moving.
38:53
Although, in the Geo Ballistics podcast, y'all mentioned the benefit to knowing bullet flight time, at a given range.
If you consider the target speed at a given range, if the elk is stepping, for example,
And you know how far it can step during your shot flight time...
You would know if you need to lead.
And that's a simple estimate, just to keep you close to center, at all, if the elk is walking. At a given range.
You might set the ranges on the range card, where you need to consider 1 half MoA (mark), or 1 Mil, (everyone else)
JK
At range x, a walking elk could step 1 half MoA during my shot.
At range Y, it could step 1 full MoA during my shot.
Etc etc etc.
Another advantage of this and other FFP reticles is that you can use it to zero the rifle. Take your 3 or 5 shots. Find the center point. Move the rifle so that the center of reticle is now in the center of impacts.
Measure how many MOA down or up to get back to x axis. And how many MOA marks left or right. Make those adjustments. So, you don't have to measure inches and then calculate reticle clicks. Do what the reticle shows you.
This is the way!
Considering the reticle is just an Etching on the glass - how does vortex justify charging substantially more money for the same scope with the EBR-7D compared to say a plex reticle. The production cost is the same yet you gouge the customer for the EBR-7D reticle. Nightforce does the exact same thing.
Price is not solely a function of manufacturing cost. If customers value one profit more than another they’ll be willing to pay more and prices will likely reflect that, basic supply and demand!
If you think it’s price gouging you are free to make your own scope and etch that glass yourself, after you fail and find out it’s not as simple as you think then come on back to the real world.
@@jaydunbar7538 In the real world, you don't sit down at your workbench and build am optic - you contact one of the many manufacturers in China that already make them and put in an order with your specifications.
Many major optics manufactures use the same production facilities in China and the only difference in price between the products is the level of quality control they specified for their batch.
Etched reticles are much more expensive to manufacture than wire reticles (plex/BDC reticles) because of the complexity of not only etching it to be perfect on a super small lens but also to fit within the specifications for the optical designs as the tolerances have to be much tighter. It also adds a lens within the optic, making that optical design more complex, whereas the wire reticle does not require an additional lens, just the proper-sized wire filament.
@@VortexNation Thank you kindly for taking the time to reply with the detailed information.
It's going to be a lot easier for me to explain the price difference (and sell your products) to our customers now that I have these details!
Thank you so much team.
MOA is the finer adjustment, so that’s something to keep in mind
Thanks Corey.
🙌🙌🙌
I love the "25 quarters vs 25 dimes" comparison. That really distills the logic of choosing either MOA or Mils.
Corey is a simple man
What hight is your scope rings?
Might not always have all those components but.
Again. Even just if the spotter knows the point you are aiming at. And can use the Reticle data to give you information on your point of impact. Even without laser precision.
But. Maybe it's most applicable when zeroing in a rifle for long range accuracy. Or correcting issues with accuracy.
On range, with a spotter, no reason not to use a simple laser to pinpoint your point of aim, for the camera. And then to designate from the spotter, the point of impact. For the camera, and the shooter, to evaluate.
If it helps orient the scope, rifle, and perhaps identify parallax or barrel problems.
If the scope is zeroed correctly,then you move on to other potential issues.
Potential
Nice upgrade for me to go get this scope! Love the Razor lineup.....
I can only hope they offer this reticle in other scopes!!!
🤞🤞
For the range finder, are you using a parallel zero or convergent zero?
Converging zero
26:52
If you have a spotter, watching your shot,
That can also help. If they know the point you were aiming at.
Or, if they can spot the point of impact, and laser point the point of impact.
Whatever.
It can inform you exactly where you hit compared to where you aimed.
In one example. If I shoot with a red dot laser point. And you spot with a green dot laser point.
You can see my point of aim, precisely, and you can designate my point of impact precisely.
That might be useful, if the recoil made 'staying scope on target through recoil'
Difficult.
Love that Arken VHR retical on epl4 best glass you can get from any scope company for the money nobody builds one this Good for the money.
no
Would the ebr-7c be to busy for hunting. I'm enamored with the strike eagle 3-18 but I don't want to get on a deer and have issues.
I just got the the SE 3-18 scope. the illumination really helps when on 3 x it give a pretty use able cross hair. Haven't tryed it pass 100yd or hunted yet but I feel I will have no issue hunting with it this fall. See if your local store has one to look through
ebr-7c is a great reticle for alot of things, for hunting, the ONLY complaint I have is low light, in dark timber or shooting at dark targets. The reticle pretty much disapears on a dark target BUT if you zoom up the magnifications and get it larger it is easier to see. Other than that factor I love it. Mine is NOT illuminated though. The ALUM will be perfect!
I'm using an EBR-7C 3-18 SE here in the UK on Red, Fallow and Sika and I have to say it's fabulous. I'm shooting out to 350m and it's crystal clear and definitely not too busy plus the illumination is very usable. I also really like how compact it is - Love It !
I have the 3-18 ffp illuminated. I really like the scope but when you’re scouting with your rifle scope you’re pretty much just looking through the upper half mostly. It was my first nice scope and wasn’t sure what I wanted. I still am a big fan of it, but after finding out how much low light spotting I end up doing with my rifle scope and that I usually dial vertical anyways I think it is actually too busy for my liking. Once I can afford it I think I’ll be putting it on a bench gun and using a different hunting scope
@@sundance260you should buy some binoculars, really shouldn’t scout with the rifle scope. Other hunters really don’t like having rifles pointed at them
That's a card one could have.
1 moa = x Milrad
If my scope is using mils
I could just, have a little conversion card for quick reference.
Shouod In the case you mentioned, get you rainfly close.
See the rock face and the lone massive Maple?
Yes.
Alright 15 MoA to the right. 2 MoA down.
(checks card) (follows Milrad conversion reference)
Target acquired. Thank you.
36:51
Case by case custom yes.
But.
Another place for a custom cheat sheet.
Range 100 = 1 Mil per speed x.
Range 200 = 3 Mil per speed x.
Whatever.
PRecalculated estimates, using your rifle your ammunition, etc.
23:55
However.
In your example.
At any given range, you CNA use the formula, to get a Milrad or Moa Target size in scope, to meet or exceed your target size.
Ie.
If you need confidence that the moose rack exceeds 50 inches.
Laser Range for precision. Enter the Regulation size as your target. And it should give you a minimum, Milrad or Moa scope picture, to compare to the antlers/rack in your scope.
Then you know, ok, this is very close. Let's take a. Moment to be certain.
Let's double check the math.
Or.
No, this is definitely fewer pips than I need for my minimum.
Or, yes, thus is definitely larger than my minimum.
Bonus points...
We can do some advance work, with a range card, for minimum rack size at Range A, B, C, D, E etc etc.
Right?
So, at range 200 meters, a rack minimum 50 inches across... (125 cm across ? If my mental math estimate is close?)
Would appear to be X Milrad in my scope.(include magnification, if using the type of Reticle that shifts with the zoom, right) (clearly this Reticle, stays the same as the target, and we zoom in on the picture and Reticle. So the Reticle appears to get smaller as we zoom out.)
Especially, if we have calculated a maximum range, for my comfident precision with that rifle/ammunition,
Or a maximum range for the Terminal Velocity? At range X?
If that's, perhaps 750 meters. Or 450 meters.
Or, perhaps it's 300 meters.
For my Xbow, it could be 50 meters maximum.
I could have the card printed for 10 meter increments for my scope picture, to be confident in estimating rack size at a glance.
Then when we see it looks close, we can take that moment to double check and wait for the perfect presentation across the windage in the Reticle. And get that measurement.
Vortex I would recommend add scales to measure standard torso width and standing heights. You could also add moving or wind guides in the tree by making them a different shape like a Dimond or triangle. Also would love to see something to help shoot when on the lowest power like a horseshoe or open x. I almost went with the Meopta 3-18 because of their retical. Personally I do like having the whole tree illuminated, we'll see if i ever need it.
The hash marks are used for measuring, why clutter the scope more? If you already don’t know how to use it properly the. You wouldn’t know how to use other things added to measure with either
The metric system uses decimals, not fractions. When using mrad do not say 3/10th of a mil. Say .3 mil.
Different strokes for different folks. Either one works fine.
It's the same bro, fractions are used plenty with metric, but the context is different, as in 1/10km equals 100 meters, it's just a division of a unit at the base 10.
Trust me. You will never find a person who say 1/10 kilometer. We don't use fractions with metric, it is one of the reasons it is a superior system. Being a Gen. X Canadian i think in both metric and Imperial. @@ciceroromero15
I love the gen 3 razor 6-36 but I don’t think it is great option for law enforcement snipers because it is to high of a magnification which reduces field of view. The gen 2 3-18 razor was a much better choice for law enforcement because of that field of view and 3-18 magnification is plenty for the distances that LE shoot at. Too bad the 3-18 is gone now
Time for a podventure hunting moose here in canada
We are SO IN!
Where are the CARTRIDGE TALKS?!
Its a good reticle no doubt, but Tremor3 is the best...
What are your thoughts on the Tremor5 in comparison? Do you think the less busy reticle really matters?
@@DanielReyes-hz1qk I don't personally, but I can see how a little less "clutter" would be preferred by some. I want all the information possible in the reticle. It suits my use case better.
Too busy. Lots of noise on those that isn't useful.
@@userJohnSmith What's your reticle preference? I've looked through a Leupold Mark 5 with the PR2-MIL reticle, that seemed nice but I've not shot with one
@@DanielReyes-hz1qk Haven't shot either. I am a fan of the EBR-7 (so far it's substantially better than Vortex's others and the Leupold stuff I've shot) though. Initially it wasn't my favorite but it grew on me once I got behind the gun.
10:26
Haha... A 10 minute talk, not about the scope Reticle...
In the podcast about the scope Reticle...
Haha.
i’m the 500th like 👍
How many uhh and ummms are in this video ?
🕵️♂️ Schmidt and Bender Was Doing Tactical Reticles Decades Before Anyone Else and Still Has the Best Optics in the World! 🎯