THE ANTI-CHAOS PRIMARCH! ARE THE WATCHERS IN THE DARK KEY?
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- Опубликовано: 7 фев 2025
- Hey everyone Wolf Lord Rho here! Today we're having a discussion regarding the one Primarch who was told the truth regarding the Gods of Chaos. As we ask if Lion El'Jonson's past with the Watchers in the Dark could be the key?
A General Spoiler Warning to begin as today we will be mentioning events from across the Warhammer 40,000 Universe. So you have been warned!
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I was playing the rogue trader game, and noticed an interesting parallel to the Lion's woodswalking: Cassia (navis nobilite) says nevigators each have their own visualisation for the warp. Hers is colours, and traversing the warp is like painting for her. BUT she also says her mentor saw the warp as a forest, and that navigating a ship through the warp was like wandering through a forest for him.
Lion also captured, read and resisted the Chaos books from the library of the Knights of Lupus, (the same books that later corrupted Luther). He knew what he was up against from the beginning, even before the Emperor arrived. Unless GW decides to just say it was one of the lost primarchs, I'm confident that Lion was the one Malcador referenced to Valdor, Dorn, Jaghatai and Sanguinius. Lion's demonstrated resistance to Chaos was likely a key reason why he and his legion was entrusted with such a dangerous arsenal by the Emperor.
Isnt it carried forwarding the recent lion book where he resists his heretic son?
It’s also made plain in the HH that the Emperor was dead certain El Johnson wouldn’t betray
It’s never Lupus.
-Inquisitor Gregory House
Thank you! It's amazing so many forget that key moment in Descent of Angels. The Lion had seen Chaos in those books and being as incorruptible as he is, resisted it. It is such an important difference between him and his brothers...except Lorgar and Magnus.
That and he started his life in the chaos infested forest of the “Home” planet.
There needs to be a Monster Hunter/Dark Souls style game set on Caliban as you play a knight in the Order, eventually becoming one of the Inner Circle and being there when the Emperor comes to find his son.
Amazing idea.
Bruh insane idea, maybe you come across lion's kills and be baflled who slew the great beast
Comments sections have better game ideas than billion dollar companies on the regular.
The Lion goes from being the Anti-Social Primarch to the Anti-Chaos Primarch. I mean he did wipe the floor with FateWeaver in a way that would make Sanginius jelly.
I think Chaos isn't fully aware of the Watchers in the Dark, which is why daemons freak out when they see one of them. They exhibit some sort of ability to mask themselves from chaos that even the Changeling can't figure them out, and that scares terrifies his master, the indecisive mollusk.
I don't think the Emperor was aware of the Watchers until after he and the Lion had their big sit down talk. I like to envision that while Big E and the Lion were talking, he'd notice his son looking over at something, and possibly whispering to it. When Emps used his psychic powers to see what Johnson was looking at/talking to, he sees this stunty robed figure and wonders how it got in here.
When Revelation uses his power to get a read on this creature, he finds that not only is chaos repelled by its presence, but that it's resistant to his psychic might, so he can't get a full read on it. Nioth immediately viewed the Watchers as a valuable tool, and has no problem with the 1st allying with them, but feels they should be closely watched as he neither trusts nor likes xenos.
Makes you wonder who the “redundant/backup” anti-Chaos Primarch is/was.
Actually, hilariously enough, I think it’s Lorgar. If he was nurtured and allowed to thrive in his pursuit of the Imperial Creed, he’d have ended up as an Imperial Ultra-Saint and bodied Daemons left, right, and center.
The Emperor fumbling Lorgar who could have potentially been his greatest son was the dumbest move possible
The corruption made him the anti-Lion? Like bizarro or reverse flAsh😂. Reverse the most noble, loyal, unwavering primarch and you definitely have something a lot like Lorgar. Who is
@Hyperion_Dark i think it was necessary to empower emps to godhood.
I can imagine a Lion book coming out starting with the Watchers finding the Lion, studying him and eventually guiding or even befriending him individually. Also can imagine an amazing scene of the Emperor meeting the Watchers.🗡️🦁
I think The Watcher are guards left on Caliban by The Old Ones. We know that the Ourobors was a part of the device The Old Ones used to bore the Webway tunnels. Vashtor has captured the scattered pieces and reassembled it. The Ourobors was found on Caliban by The Lion and stored within The Rock, so obviously The Old Ones had to have hidden it there as they scattered and hidden the other pieces. It just makes sense that they would have left guards behind to look after it.
Agreed. Caliban wasnt a planet exactly, Ouroboros was a giant web way tunnelling machine that over time, having its own gravity, accumulated dirt and rock that solidified into a planet which humans settled. Hence it broke apart so easily. There are 3 parts to the webway tunneling device. Considering the Golden Throne is a Xenos device used to control the entrance of the Webway it makes sense these are linked. The Keys etc that the Dark Angels have and Cypher is trying to deliver back to the Emp are also all related to this. Vashtorr knows this and has been trying to get these items and has the main items for the webway tunnel device but is missing something (The Lion Sword?). Also worth noting that the Watchers are part or aligned with the Cabal - so the Eldari must know about them too. The failing throne and the 3 items the Dark Angels had could be a way to solve it and block the webway that is filled with demons. A big question here - how could a super Pysker like the Emp go to Caliban and not know of the Watchers? How could he meet the Lion again and again and not know of them? I think a deal was struck. Is this deal what made him return to Terra to construct the webway gate, having gotten something from Caliban?
There are a few bits still to explain:
When Caliban was destroyed the present day Dark Angels were there and a time rift opened(damn you Azrael, you destroyed Caliban!). Did the Watchers just move the Lion from there on to the present day Rock, thus skipping 10,000 years? (He aged by meeting the Emp, same with Guiliman - Tieron says this in the Watchers of the Throne book)
During the Heresy and the Siege of Terra, why was it the Dark Angels went straight for the Astronomican? What did they know?
Its noted that some of the Terran Dark Angels have a special "mind block" placed there by the Emperor (Descent of Angels) - this is probably key to understanding Cypher and his relation to the Emp and why as he lay dying the Lion gave him his mission. I feel this could come back as part of the Star Child, with the Lion and the Terran Dark Angels being the Childs guardians or this thing they have in them is key to the Emp coming back (Cypher book and the Emp telling him to wait).
Lastly - the Lion miniature that came out shows the hands of one of the Watchers for the first time (I think?) - It looks skeletal/lizard thin. The Watchers are the Old Ones.
@JoeGrantES what was tge mind 🔐 for?
@@tobydawes6007 They havent ever explained it. Most of the Terran DAs who had it either died or were Fallen, so perhaps it comes back.
"The core of the First Master’s mind was encased with a protective layer, the like of which the Master of the Mystai had not encountered. Even as he tried to avert his delving, it was as though he was punching through adamantium. The shock of the impact numbed him instantly. Psychic feedback lanced into Zahariel’s brain.
A golden fog permeated everything.
A booming voice, the words unintelligible but commanding. Beside its power, Zahariel was as a candle next to the sun.
Warmth. Becoming hotter.
Searing. Scorching. Turning him to ash."
They seem to be popping up all over the place, I dont think we have any reason to believe they are temporally limited, that they have to “be at” a place, they can probably just show up where they like from their dimension, like the Lion do.
More likely I think they just keep an eye on the place or have something like a garrison there, no reason to think its an isolated group.
@@JoeGrantES will they explain it in the follow up to the son of the forest?
Do you remember his duel with the greater demon of tzeench? AND(!) Angron, defeated them both. Which chaos god would have the most psychic power besides tzeench? Of course big daddy E would tell the secrets to the oldest son. The secrets of moloch and the lion sword being a “key” are the last things daunting my mind in this matter. I know he is the one to be the bulwark against chaos in the coming future. Not to mention the test of wormwood and the ouroboros vashtorr etc.
Hail to the Lion. And the Emperor. Glory to the first.
Loved angron pre ascending, but it's been crystal clear for years now gw don't know what to do with him, he's kinda just there and loses in any meaningful duel
I thought Big E told Corax about chaos and he is literally in the warp using his inner chaos powers to fight against chaos.
It would be SO freaking sick to get a unit that is watchers in the dark...a trio of them just fed up and psychicly obliterating fools.
"I see your C'tan sir and raise you 3 Jawas"
Lmfao Imperial Jawas, I can’t unsee that now
@Mike-jz3oo they are pro-Dark Angels... not Imperial
@@mattruecker5861Lion El Johnson loyalist pimarch of the imperium of man, ergo watchers in the dark siding with the imperium making them imperial jawas
@@mattruecker5861idk if they are pro-DAs so much as pro-DAs doing what the watchers/ “the cabal” want them to do
This theory would make alot of sense. Outside the Lion, either the 2nd or 11th may also be candidates of this knowledge
Now that Caliban has been revealed as a webway drill (for want of a better description) I wonder if the watchers are very ancient, like made by the old ones to be maintenance crew or maybe to clean the chaos off the planet as it drilled through the immaterium. .
"Utinni!"
Honestly if it’s wasn’t the Lion the writers are stupid… he was trusted with all manner of secrets and technology as well as the last surviving men or iron
As well as a bunch of other things. First off he's a quiet guy and has probably already been told a bunch of dark shxt by the Emperor and Malcador, so they know for a fact he's keeping his mouth shut and not making Chaos stronger by talking about it. And secondly when discussing the Heresy with Malcador and which Primarchs maybe could've turned, the Lion's loyalty wasn't even a question. Thirdly and finally,he literally came into contact with a daemon of Tzeentch as a young boy and resisted it so hard it couldn't see a future where it manipulated him, so it left
If the Emperor viewed them as tools or weapons then the first true Primarch is optimised to combat the preeminent threat, Chaos.
That knowledge must be carefully controlled so you have the inherent secrecy. The various layers within the Legion effectively slowing if not outright halting infiltration.
The only way it makes any sense for it not to be the Lion is that the Emperor knew the Watchers already told him all he needed to know.
At this point everyone knows the lion and the watchers have a relationship that nobody 100% knows or understands in The lion son of the forest when he awakes having full blown amnesia his millenia's old instincts told him theyre to be trusted and listened too, and everyone knows the lion is older than people think in the deepest warp tainted parts of calibans forest time moves differently just like in the warp, cuz the people of caliban talk about for generations of something in the forest killing the great beasts, the order's finding the shattered skulls and ripped apart bodies of the great beasts, and all primitive lion had was his body and weapons made of bone after slaying the great beasts as a barehanded primarch child
Thank; it is laid out a few times; his Instincts are what guild him; he can very accurately smell the taint.. and he is one of the most intelligent primarchs when it comes to combat. He was told because the emperor knew he would never fall.
Which is the tragedy of the Dark Angels; the incorruptible father who loved his legion; but the sons were only human.
What if Lion warp soul belongs to the watchers race and thats why they are always aroud him and why Lionel is able to talk to them and why the lion can now use warp travel ???
I thought this was pretty self evident but as someone who spent a hot minute all over the world in the military. I can tell you the dark angels are so poorly written in the modern arc. These guys were modeled after the SAS, delta force, etc. each squadron or wing is the best at one but great at everything. The DA are the special forces of 30k and 40k. The lion is single handily the most important primarch and GW has done a poor job like always. The lion now is the mature true war master. He is assembling his legion again. If GW can get out of there own way, he could be the most dynamic character moving forward. He was the 1st, the best, the most powerfully crafted, and purpose built primarch. Horus was always going to fall, he had charisma and hubris. The lion had anger because of his age. Now he is a “adult” in primarch years. Rogal is to naive to understand chaos and the bastion builder, the raven lord is fighting warp with warp, the lord of drakes is humanitys protector, the khan is the skirmish king, and the lion is great general. Plus we are going to get one more loyalist primarch whether a lost, reborn or redeemed. Probably magnus will sacrifice himself to the throne for the big e to be healed
Giving credit to the watchers takes to much away from the legend that is the Lion. I would love to believe they saw him and watched him but didn’t help him because they didn’t know if he was evil also considering he was born of the warp…
I want my Khan back!!!
Next big question for you Rho.
When Caliban broke did we lose watchers? Are they connected to Wyrmwood now too? Are there a planets worth of Watchers bound to The Rock??
With the survival of the Rock, the Watchers have been an ever present companion to the Dark Angels and we even have mentions of Supreme Grand Masters of DA descendant chapters having a Watcher in the Dark with them so it seems they don't need a physical link to Caliban. They were also noted to be on the shop the Lion was on when he met Dante.
However it is very interesting to think what they made of Wyrmwood.
@WhiteIkiryo-yt2it yeah makes me think that ethereal woodland simulacrum of Caliban is their true home... and it can overlay anywhere in real space
In my mind it’s either the lion or corax they both seem to be super resistant to taint, I mean corax had a full mental breakdown and still didn’t turn and lion as a baby was suplexing tainted great beasts from the top rope for years by himself (maybe with the watchers guidance as well) so it’s gotta be one of those, a dark horse though is it could be Vulcan and that’s why he left, he know dads plan and went to do the parts he could while he had time
Dorn literally dispels chaos just by being present. Doesn’t get more anti-chaos than that.
Loyalty is it’s own reward.
Great vid.
Why did Wyrmwood not require The Rock to become complete since Vashtor was collecting all scraps and peices of old Caliban to create it.
As far as we've ever been told The Rock is it's single largest chunk left
This calls to my mind the oft-revisited topic of Primarchs with similar characteristics or areas of expertise or seeming intended by the Emperor to be redundant or suit the same purpose in slightly different ways. I've always sortof considered Leman Russ and the Space Wolves a good candidate for being the Emperor's intended anti-chaos Primarch and Legion. One way to address the problem of fighting an enemy you need to keep secret is to have your soldiers be loyal and obedient. If the Space Wolves are the Emperor's attack dogs, you don't have to ask a well-trained dog to keep a secret because it doesn't care about the secret. It need not even know about the secret. It's just going to obediently do as it was commanded. And I think I read something about the Canis Helix having some kind of anti-chaos resistance, which may be nonsense, but ARE there any canonical Space Wolves that have turned heretic? Another way to solve that problem is a fighter you can trust to be honorable and knows how to keep a secret, just like Lion El'Jonson. A different way to solve the same problem.
There are multiple anti-Chaos primarchs. The Lion is one. Alpharius is one. Malal is one.
Does the emperor tell corax about chaos in deliverence lost?
I feel like the watchers have to have some kind of connection with the old ones in some fashion
I think its corax that knew about chaos and its secrets the emperor admired corax trusted him undoubtedly and they had a little chat that brought corax around when they first met also corax was trusted with the geneseed master key thing to rebuild his legion nobody else was given that corax can be anywhere and nobody bar maybe the emperor would know he’s there maybe he over heard valdor and malkadore talking about chaos or something and had to ask either way he had some secret that allowed him to ascend to deamon raven man and prior chaos knowledge would make sense with that
I think it was the watchers in the dark who woke up the lion not the emperor
I thought Russ was literally Chaos resistant?
Nope, none of the Wolves are, Russ included. It's one of those community-myth Mandela-effect things.
That's why Wolves are screened as part of their ascension to weed out any who give into the pull of Chaos.
Russ and the Khan Always knew about the dangers of the warp and so played it safe but Russ is no more resistant than any other Primarch.
Yeah. What they said... Russ wasn't resistant, he was more "loud". He projected such a fierce warp signature himself that it just kinda messes with all the chaos crap.
But if he was immune he wouldn't have needed to drag all of those silent sisters to Prospero to do the heavy lifting against the Psyker Planet.
@ What you’re describing is chaos resistance. I didnt say he was immune.
the watchers in the dark were the shadows under the water in the newish lion book right? I always thought those were chaos cause the dude on the raft whom i assumed was the emperor warned the lion out of the water because of them
It doesn't add up to me, no. The Dark Angels have the Ikaros Contingency, which says, among other things: "The second clause, had it become common knowledge, would have been cause enough to start the war the Emperor sought to avoid, for it empowered Lion El'Jonson and his warriors to conduct preemptive combat operations to neutralize elements of the Mechanicum deemed to have become "contrary to the needs of the Imperium". This final clause is known to have been invoked eight times in the history of the Imperium, though details of most of those incidents remain sealed within the vaults of the Dark Angels,". I really don't see Lion and his sons being anti-chaos AND anti-Mechanicum/Mechanicus. Sure they're supposed to be "all arounds" but dang, if they're all that do we NEED any other Legions? I think the Anti-Chaos was one of the lost primarchs or was shaping up to be Lorgar before he was corrupted.
The original primarch that knew about Chaos, we already know - Magnus. He was trying to save Horus from the agents of chaos while he was in his coma and only fell, eventually, because he was pushed away - first by the emperor and then by the attack from the Space Wolves, by which time they were beyond redemption.
So there were likely more than just one primarch who knew of chaos... there were likely 2 and, possibly, three.
This falls apart when you realise he bartered with chaos for power to break into the palace.
Even though he was told not to he still did it, the Emperor knew Magnus could not be trusted.
That's why Nikea happened.
The khan knew of the warp and the deamons well before, too. It was his main beef with big E
do people think its likeley we'll get a lion series which explores, the unforgiven, the forgiven the reunification of the legion and the new threats in the galaxy?
I wonder just how powerful they really are.
A second in command demon shat his pants and ran from one , that powerful
If Chaos fears the darkness. Corvus Corax haunts the shadows!
The Lion is yet to understand him being chaos resistant. But I still think he can split the Imperium to current vs pre religious. As in Guiliman sector, Lion sector and all the bs in-between
Are the watchers in the dark the same people that guided the Alpha Legion? I always thought they might be?
I thought it was Corax.
If this theory is correct, and I believe it is, is it possible that El Johnson became the anti-chaos primarch by accident?
Consider this. The Lion learns of chaos from the Watchers. He’s later reunited with the Emperor and presses him for an explanation. The Emperor plays the hand as best he can and confirms what the Watchers said.
Courage and Honor brother
Aint the C'than actually older than chaos though?
I would say Lion with Gulliman would be the most anti tyranids. I think as a monster slayer, he would use these watchers for advice.
Why did the watchers not warn the lion/other DA's of luther and his lieutenants before they attacked and damned half the legion
I feel like dork angel fans will say anything to give their primarch and legion something cool
Watch, the watchers are just the harlequins lol
Did the Lion tell the Emperor about the Watchers?
Am I the Lion of this??
🦁
so the lion didnt talk for the first year mb he was just not in a way ppl could hear
I think the watchers adopted the lion while he grew on Caliban=
Yes.
Ehh I would say rogal is more the anti chaos
According to Malcador, Rogal was susceptible to chaos. Not because he's a bad guy, but because he would have stared too long into the warp and tried to master it, emperor and malc deliberately left Rogal out of the loop
Rogal is the defender of Terra, it would make little sense for him to go on a quest throughout the galaxy to purge chaos!
like 200!
Alpharius is loyal, Lion is traitor. End of story
so they're aliens?
I'm kinda new to Warhammer hut but i just had this thought. So nulls/blanks exist on real space but are like blackholes in the warp. So what would the chaos version of a null be? It would exist in the warp, but be dark nothingness in reality. Could the watchers be representations of something that can no longer exist in reality, but still a strong enough presence in the warp to not be consumed by the endless nightmare? Maybe even something like a dead primarch's soul maybe? Doran, Russ, Khan, and Sanguinius would all have a magnificent presence in the warp, but their physical manifestation is no longer tangible, appearing to be nothingness in the materium. Their immense power essentially bleeding through the wall of reality but having no way to represent itself. Maybe all the dead primarchs that still have souls could be a watcher. Im just gueessing and making stuff up
Watchers are older than the emperor and mankind as a species. They have mentioned trying to warn the emperor against the course of action he took. It’s implied they’re extra-dimensional and the small diminutive forms are how they choose to appear to the dark angels.
You’re close to the reverse-null thing though. Chaos daemons can’t really see them with their warp sight but are scared shitless by them.
No. I hate the pathetic loser that is leaman. But if anyone is an anti chaos primarch it’s him.
The lion is the true emperor executioner but he isn’t really an anti chaos or at least anti psychic like the wolf
The Anti-Chaos primarchs should technically be Ferrus/Vulkan/Dorn/Perturabo never been really shown even being able to be tempted, and all of them were either taken out as soon as possible, or BFR'd or bogged down in stupid roles (defender and siegemaster).
Lion is not the anti Chaos primark. That is Russ and the space wolves. Stop trying to steel themes claim them for the DA. You either a specialist chapter or vanila basic Jack of all trades. DA worst most boring chapter with fans more toxic than the skinhead world eater fan. The anti chaos primark is the one made to execute brothers who fall.
The Khan is the only one who knew about the warp and chaos! The Khan is who should have been war master.
Not really. Malcador confirms that only one primarch was told- not Russ, Dorn, Sanguinus nor Khan
Definitely not, since both Malcador and the Emperor were doubtfull that the Khan would remain loyal in the heresy, plus the Khan wasn't particularly fond of his dad!
He would have hated being war master. It's not in his nature
@@ukaszbiaek6641Which one was it?
It wasn’t Khan. That’s confirmed.
Nah, the Wolves are the anti chaos legion
The story of the Lion is simply the worst and only terrible story arch of the entire 40k universe. Why: He has no origin story other than his own selfish ideals to abandon the man who raised him, he reads all kinds of Chaos material but is somehow untainted due to his autism. His plot armor is worst than anything ever done to the ultramarines (i.e. Escapes the justice of Konrad, lies to his brothers constantly, and uses xeno tech like its okay for him to ignore the laws of the imperium, just look out for the 1st legion if you do). This guy is both unimpressive, unrelateable (unless you are an entitled monarch with autism and unlimited resources), and he manages to avaoid every conflict in the Imperium by attack defenseless planets without anyone to oppose him. Seriously, I would rather read about Logar writing and annotating his bibliography files than one more story about the Matt Ward of Primarchs.
If this theory is correct, and I believe it is, is it possible that El Johnson became the anti-chaos primarch by accident?
Consider this. The Lion learns of chaos from the Watchers. He’s later reunited with the Emperor and presses him for an explanation. The Emperor plays the hand as best he can and confirms what the Watchers said.