Debating The Controversial Twists Of The Last Of Us Part II - Spoiled
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- Опубликовано: 21 июн 2020
- FULL SPOILERS AHEAD! The Last of Us Part II's journey to release has been riddled with well-documented strife, from multiple delays to users review bombing the game on Metacritic even though they haven't played it yet. But when you cancel out the noise and actually play Naughty Dog's latest title, does it live up to the immensely high bar set by its lauded predecessor? Find out as we break down the game's story and discuss why Ellie's tale has Joe Juba, Andrew Reiner, Andy McNamara, and Alex Stadnik emotionally exhausted, yet utterly spellbound.
We cannot emphasize enough that we spoil almost every single major story beat from The Last of Us Part II while also showing said footage from our time playing the game. If you want to be fresh and experience the game for yourself (which you unequivocally should do), please save this video and come back to us when you've completed your playthrough. We promise it will be worth it.
If you enjoyed the video and want more coverage of The Last of Us Part II, be sure to check our video review here: • The Last of Us Part 2 ... 
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The most impressive plot for me was Ellie flashbacks to Joel. At first you cling to them because Seattle is so dark, but as the story progresses you see how Joel’s lie and Ellie’s reaction destroys their relationship. It’s then the realisation that those flashbacks are Ellie being haunted by the memory of Joel and how that was actually her main motive, it was her own guilt that pushed her for revenge more than anything. That was the most powerful thing for me.
Damn.
So good. perfect comment
I was just talking to my wife about this a few days ago. I saw this as well.
Just imagine if no spoilers got out and everyones collective minds were blown all at the same time.
Speaking of the little details in the hospital, when ellie drops down with nora and the guards follow, they say “why are the lights on?” 15 hours later when you play as abby you figure out why the lights are on.
Oh shit. Man this is why I need to play it again but I'm still reeling from the last playthrough lol. Not sure if I'm ready for that wild ride again just yet.
The Outsider Same here I’m going to give it a few months before i play again just to let it sink in, I’m also going to play both halves separately maybe Abby first.
I love this little detail! Ive taken a few days off to digest and hear other people’s thoughts. I think I’m gonna have to jump back in and get the plat. So good!
In a sense they were lucky the leaks happened, it softened the blow. The backlash would've been twice as insane without them.
Well it proves how badly naughty dog is treating employees where someone sane enough snaps and decides to leak the whole game but idk I really like the graphics but not enough to play or buy this game but I'm sadly interested in Factions Part II.
Rattlers weren't cannibals - they enslaved people they captured and made them work the fields harvesting crop, then if they acted up they'd either infect them or string them up to die on that beach. Also, it's heavily implied that Abby did in fact contact and talk to the Fireflies - the end homescreen is the Catalina Island ballroom with their beached boat in Avalon where they were directed to meet.
The way the Rattlers caught them was during the failed attempts on radio stations with no answers. Their call-sign was their location, and the Rattlers used one of those radio blank radio channels.
To that point, did anyone else think that Abby was going to yell out as she's drowning "I found the fireflies", and maybe both realizing there could be a chance to do another surgery on Ellie, they both agree to sail to the Firefly location in the hopes of another shot at a cure?
Anybody else think this? Or think this may have better served as an end?
I thought this may be the direction the story would go and ultimately culminate. I don't know if my own idea of how it should end had soured what actually played out but I think this was a missed opportunity for a more hopeful ending.
I didn't particularly like Abby sailing into the fog and Ellie walking into the woods as an ending but nevertheless I enjoyed the ride.
@@sidewinder1795 it's stated in the game that Abby's dad was the only known person who could have done the surgery and have a chance of succeeding. So just finding the fireflies doesn't really mean anything anymore, in terms of a cure at least.
The Rattlers caught them because they were in their territory. No need to read into it past that tbh.
When they revealed that trailer when ellie is playing guitar and joel shows up for the last 5 seconds everyone was already speculating that joel was a ghost. I just don't get how you can think that and think he would die at the end
I wasn't opposed to joel dying but its the way he goes out your telling me joel wouldn't but up more of a fight that he wouldn't go in to that cabin without his shotgun or that he wouldn't be more skeptical about this big and armed group
i agree everyone acted shocked when joel died early on. but like idk.. if u watched that specific trailer and looked at the cover of the game, and the devs saying its a revenge story.. i mean it was really obvious
@@fiel81 troy baker said he played that scene as if Joel was thinking "dammit this is what i get for trusting people, this is what i get for letting myself be open." They talk more about that scene (Neil Druckmann and Ashley Johnson) on a spoilercast at Kinda Funny Games channel.
If you watch streamers that played the game they weren’t even shocked most of them were sad on how bad the writing on this game was. But unfortanetly u have fan boys talking and loving the story no matter what without realizing how much went wrong in that story. And this is why gaming is as it is. We have too many fans chanting for whatever the developer does even if the disrespect is at the higher level. These are the reason why I don’t like people that are scared to criticize game directors. Because when u become to scared to make your voice heard then every game or a sequel that u wait for in I don’t know how many years will be destroyed by agenda and political stuff and this won’t change until we make our voices heard and the real fans from the first game really wants their voices heard cus we waited 7 years for a lore. Not for sexual identification. Not for some random character that we play for 12 hours. Once u realize this then it might get to your head why the story and Joel’s death doesn’t make sense. To kill a character in a foolish way doesn’t make you feel hatred towards the story. It makes you hate the direction the director took for it to happen. But if it was an emotional sad death it wud make more sense because we are more driven to the beauty then to the bad written scenario.
Emmanuel Barrera I saw that stream cus I wanted to see what wud make sense in what the direction they took. And the thing is I understand when he said he cares about the characters more then everyone. Of course that’s understandable because he made these characters. But if he cared and didn’t see the wrong in the direction then I don’t know what to say. We have the original lion king for example. The best movie in my opinion ever made. It is also a revenge story. But they made it emotional in every level. And they didn’t really give characters a bad ending. It was endings that made sense because of jealousy and power. This a is movie that is a clear proof that disrespectful death doesn’t make you hate anyone in the story it makes you only hate the direction the game took while in lion king u have a beautiful death a beautiful scene and emotional writing which made it make sense. And made u hate the protagonist even more because of your emotional connection to the character. That’s why Joel would have lasted longer in this game which wud make us reconnect with him after all these years. And then kill him off emotionally because we have an emotional attachment to the game. Not an angry one. Cus I didn’t feel anger when I saw Joel’s death. I actually l felt sad on how bad they made it.
I loved this game for the same resons you’ve discussed. It was an emotional rollercoaster to experience the other side of the story and get to see how “we’re not always right”, or there’s no “good” and “bad”... interesting and excruciating story to play, but definetely well executed.
Ellie also lost her switchblade, the only memento from her mother...which is also just another loss she suffered in this
Completely agree with everything these guys are saying. This game has so many layers. I haven’t played a game like this in so long
I’ve never played a game like this, if anyone has any suggestions of awesome story games like this pls hit me up I’m tryna expand my gamer palate haha
TheFreshTrumpet I wish there were other games that had this level of quality. This game rivaled even the top class of movies or tv shows, and I personally think it was the best thing I’ve ever played/watched. Edit: One suggestion is Life is Strange (if you haven’t already played it). It’s a great story based game where your choices impact the world around you.
@@TheFreshTrumpet RDR2, inFamous 1 & 2 or MGS4 guns of the Patriots would be my preference. But you most likely already played them.
what Joel says at the end to Ellie, that he would do again if he had the chance, is as if he were saying "you shouldn't die to save this humanity, these people are rotten" and we see it well in the game, remembering that Sarah died at the hands of a human being. Ellie had a chance to enjoy this gift from him, with Dina, but she always saw Joel being tortured, until the end of the fight when his vision changes to his smile. I hope Ellie didn't go alone, but went back to Jackson and found Dina.
I Get more like Joel to say you mean more to me than all human race can't live without you.. and i would to it again if god give him chance do do it. And in that moment Elli get's it
Yeah, I don't think Joel holds a grudge on humanity for what happened with Sarah, after all he found hope and love again in Ellie and Jackson, all of them human.
Wow man even though that should be obvious I haven't thought of that point nice!
So here is my take on why Ellie needed to go chase Abby again at the farm. At the theater, Abby won. Decisively. Abby ended it. Ellie didn't have a choice in the matter. It was forced on her by Abby. That's why she couldn't just walk away from it. That's why she didn't have closure at that point. She needed to have this moment of realisation of ''This is not what Joel would have wanted. I've gone too far.'' by herself. I'm so glad that she did and that we did get the ending that we got.
Well explained.
That's what I exactly thought. It was a matter of agency and control for Ellie.
Totally!
Nah not really
@David Mutchler No not really she thought going after abby would wash away her own guilt lol
Ah yes, finally a video of people discussing the game who actually DO UNDERSTAND IT
marry me you and me are one of the few.
Even the ending made sense I saw it coming since day 3 with Ellie I knew I and called it. My friends where like nehhh I was like yes I'm pretty sure how this will end.
Right? Still a bunch of salty children in these comments tho.
Damn straight
@@ampersandyyy Or you just have shit taste in games(just a thought)
I really enjoyed this discussion, you raised some interesting points. This game is extremely brave, and I can understand how some fans of the first game are left disappointed. Personally, I couldn't put the controller down and love TLOU2 as much as the first game.
Just finished last night and I'm still jacked up. The more I think about it and listen to this, I'm thinking more and more this is the most brilliant game I've ever played
It got a mature rating and that extends to the concepts it explores.
Moth seemed to be Naughty Dog saying something like "even from total darkness you can still go towards light". This was shown with what Abby said about her dad, Ellie going from light to dark and light, the final second after credits when you see moths cirgling a light..
Neil Druckmann says that wasn’t the symbolism regarding the moths. But it’s interesting to see the interpretations that can come from such a great experience.
@@lawofgravity1979 ^^^ yep.. just to piggy back on you to clarify, Neill says the moth simply came from Joels guitar fret and was a symbol of their relationship, although he did say he appreciates the firefly angle, it wasnt what was originally intended..
Easily my favorite conversation about this game on RUclips. Great job guys! For me it's already become one of my favorite titles for this generation, loved it and found beauty in the imperfect characters
Thank you for doing a positive analysis on this! I’m really happy I listened to the entire video. I’ve been going back and forth between if I think this game is really good, or is it only good in some places, and flawed in others.
After watching your video I’ve come to the conclusion that, with all the layers upon layers of character development and interwoven story’s, There’s WAY more to like, notice, grasp, and analyze, than first meets the eye on your first play through. I believe this game is meant to be seen as a unique piece of art that stands on its own. To find certain flaws in it, because “that’s not what other successful games do” is a mistake. You have to take this entire game for what it is. And that’s why it needs to be played all the way to completion.
That very last scene at the farm house was soul crushing and heartbreaking. As we look out through Ellie’s bedroom window on the second floor, and watch Ellie walk away in the distance for the last time, we know that every item she’s ever owned, including the guitar that Joel gave her are now lost to the world forever, never to be seen again. She’s never coming back to that house.
I don’t think any game has ever brought out so many raw emotions for me as powerfully as this game has. I’m thinking and pondering about this game for days after I’ve finished it, and I won’t be forgetting it anytime soon. I really loved this game.
Personally I've been in between a 9 to 9.5 outta 10. It's not a perfect game by any means. Sometimes it gets repetitive, it's about 6 hours to long, AI can be flat out stupid (moderate level), sometimes the story could get choppy. However, the game is absolutely AMAZING at least in my opinion. You stated many things I agree with.
It's great to see an intellectual video about this after all the neanderthal type videos out there. There's even a video stating "This game was hatred to Good Father Figures" ... It seems like this linear game messed up people's linear thinking. Also, Ellie saved him in the DLC so this was the second time she tried to save him.
You hit it right on the head man
@@YourVideoEssaysSuck too soon
Exactly... the game subverted expectations and people couldn’t handle it. Seems like too many people raised on Marvel movies and “good guy bad guy” tropes got confused by a story with nuance, maturity and shades of grey.
@@davidmthorley Also it was not subverting expectations only for the sake of it. Each of those had a purpose.
'This linear game messed up people's linear thinking'
Haha!
It's difficult to overstate how easy it is to do what TLOU2 did in its premise. You could have the main character of any series killed by any npc who was somehow wronged by their actions, especially if you put the main character in an unescapable situation and make them forget all the survival instincts that kept them alive.
If TLOU2 had simply followed Ellie's quest for revenge, it might have been a bit standard, though I believe Naughty Dog could have focused on Ellie's conflicted feelings: she understands why these people hate Joel because she hates him for a similar reason. But Druckmann decided to do something that ultimately makes this game a love-or-hate affair: he forces you to play as Joel's killer. The story that follows is all about trying to humanize Abby and make you care about her fate before thrusting Ellie back in and conflicting you about both women. If you end up caring about Abby, then Druckmann succeeded. If, despite his best efforts, you still don't care about or like Abby, then the game is an utterly miserable experience, in which you get sick glee out of failing as Abby because you get to watch her die. This is not a successful (or healthy) experience.
In the end, Ellie doesn't go through with killing Abby, despite killing hundreds dispassionately to reach her. That's the final gambit: do you like that Ellie forgave Abby? If you do, then this game is a masterpiece. If you don't, then this is one of the most breathtaking failures in gaming history.
I mean if you don’t at least understand and empathize with Abby then you are basically proving the game’s thesis.
Well said, I didnt buy the game, watched it all the way through and am GLAD I didn't for I am the one who gets sick glee from Abby's deaths.
I felt for abby by the end, but I do think that this game has something in it that is a problem with the uncharted games. In uncharted they make nathan drake just a normal everyman, but in the gameplay he is a cold blooded killer who feels no remorse. In tlou2 ellie kills so many in the gameplay but in the end decides not to kill abby. I think with naughty dog they're gameplay kind of contradicts things that are done in the story
@@aidandavick9545 Yeah, I agree with this. Killing Joel early on before we even get to know Abby is very intentional. The whole point is to ask the player to empathize after-the-fact. We all know revenge and killing is bad.... but once it starts, how do you stop it? You have to remember that the other person is still a person. The entire first game was the lesson about this. If Joel is judged by a handful of actions, he is a terrible person.... but the first game did a fantastic job teaching you to empathize with him early on.
Now put that lesson into practice. Now realize this applies to everyone else as well. If you failed to empathize with Abby, sure you can blame the game and say it didn't do a good enough job, or maybe it's just you. You let the cycle of hate continue with yourself. I also think this might be the issue of just watching streams and gameplay clips out of order as well... as the whole point to a videogame is to embody a character, which helps you to empathize with them easier. That's what makes it different from film. If you don't experience those moments first-hand and they just aren't going to be as affective.
And people saying "Joel conveniently forgot his survival instincts" aren't realizing something. Joel intentionally did not fight back. He didn't forget how to survive, he was repenting. A character even says "The gun was right there and he didn't reach for it".
The night before he dies, Joel's character arc comes full circle. He peaks. The moment he has with Ellie on the porch was the first happy moment they had together without the baggage of him lying to her. He is as happy of a person as he was at the beginning of the Last of Us part 1, when he is sitting on the couch with his daughter Sarah. The only thing he has left hanging on him is the guilt, the cost of what he did to the people in that hospital to save Ellie. And guilt and repentance is definitely one of the themes. As illustrated by Abby as well, when she decides to go back to help the kids. It's not because she wants to save them, it's to repent and lift some of the guilt she has for killing Joel. In the end, Abby is even willing to just let Ellie kill her. She doesn't want to fight back. Ellie has to force her to fight by threatening Lev's life.
The moment that porch scene flashes in Ellies mind is when she stops. I think it's because she realized what Joel was doing. He was repenting for what he did and he was trading his life for hers. He said, given the chance, he would do it all over again. Even at the cost of his own life... the cost of that action. And I also believe she realized he got everything he wanted as far as happiness. In the end he died a heroes death. The cost of his own life for another. Joel died a good man.
It kind of lost me in another way; it seemed like complete character assassination for Ellie. She kills likely tens of people to get revenge for the death of one man, who himself was killed because he killed around 20 people (and maybe all of humanity). The final flashback shows that Ellie was kind of nihilistic and believed that she had lost the chance for her life to be meaningful, giving some context to her monstrous acts, but at this point to me she is as close to irredeemable as any fictional character because of how much of a hypocrite she was and how many deaths she maliciously caused.
The game was an excellently written tale of hypocrisy in tribalism (including Seattle’s warring factions in addition to to getting revenge), but I wish it hadn’t so completely corrupted one of my favorite characters.
I suspect a redemption arc is planned, with her seeking out a purpose (and likely the Fireflies) in the third game, and I believe anyone is redeemable, so I generally support that, but man, I hope they don’t downplay how much of a monster she was in this game.
Here's why, to me, this game is a masterpiece and even better than the first part in some ways :
First thing first, people got overcarried by the hate coming from the leaks, which were out of context. Now that the game is out and we have proper context to look into it all, it's obvious the writers knew perfectly what they were doing all along and it feels like a really well planned story. But of course some of those youtubers/influencers/whatever are just looking for easy views and bucks, and right now it means hating the game and follow what started with the leaks. You can disagree with the story of course, but not to the extent of sending death threats to the writers, or the actors. That's just wrong and childish, period. No one back then had proper context to judge the game.
Firstly, to me, the game honors Ellie and Joel bonds deeply : you can feel Joel's presence all the way during the first half of the game, and seeing how Ellie does take care of a whole militia brings back memories of how Joel would have done it. She has the same moves. She has the same way (and of course, you do as a player) of wiping enemies. At one point during the game Dina says to Ellie "where did you learn how to do that ?" and she answers "Joel taught me". This is a testimony of how Joel affected Ellie, and yourself as a player. The flashbacks are here to remind you constantly of that special bond. It culminates when Ellie tries to do the same map trick Joel taught her, but it backfires on her, because she's not him. And Ellie's own failures end up in killing a pregnant woman. That's why she hates Abby so much (who seems to be successful and invicible to Ellie at that point of the game - but of course she isn't given how she loses everything and how she ends up enslaved).
Secondly, people can't stand the fact Joel died. But Joel made that terrible choice at the end of the first game of saving Ellie at all costs. He put this on himself. And he then got soft because of the safety provided by Jacksonville and because of the redemption he found with having Ellie. You can feel it all the way during the prologue. They ALL got careless, forgetting how dangerous the world can be. There are tons of details for it : the reports on how many infected they killed during patrols (filled with smileys and jokes, even Joels after a while), the way they bring people in Jacksonville, Joels house (when you visit it, you can feel the guy has turned soft because he has Ellie in his life and he found redemption : he has an artistic soul again, given how much time he's been spending carving wood and playing guitar - things that felt meaningless to him in the first part - I couldn't believe Joel has such a sensitive soul inside given how he had to hide it all after what happened to his daughter and what he had to do to survive during those 20 years. But of course he had to switch off that survivor mentality for it).
Now about Abby (who also plays as a Moby Dick for Ellie until the end). First, the thing her dad says when he tells her he would do just as Joel to save her even if her death would prevent humanity for getting a cure was a way to tell her we all have flaws, and so does she as she was blinded by hate for Joel. Then, the game takes a huge turn when Lev and Yara come around, it takes a whole different step because ultimately, as she says, she chooses their side over the Wolves or the Scars. That's the defining moment (on the island) when I started really caring about Abby. What matters most is the individuals, not the group logic and systemic way of dealing with things (rings any bells to how people flamed this game despite having played it or explored it enough ?). You have to look into individuals and not judge them depending on which group they're a part of (and btw, Ellie comes to the same conclusion when she writes in her diary while in Santa Barbara : "Fireflies, Scars, Wolves... f*** them all" ; she's on the same mental process as Abby, Abby just being ahead a bit). That's a wonderful character development and morale. And btw : Abby DOES show remorse and is tortured by what she did. The nightmares didn't go away with Joel's death. And Laura Bailey plays it perfectly when she kills Joel : she has seconds of hesitation and you can feel her vulnerability. Of course she's too consumed by it to show it directly. And I like to think Yara and Lev is a way for her to find purpose again and to redeem for what she did.
The game doesn't give you anything easy and you actually have to dig deep into it to get your answers. You have to read diary logs, you have to listen to all of the conversations, you have to look into the environment to get it all. It doesn't treat you like a 5 years old, spoonfeeding you easy answers to make you feel better. I've never seen a game this detailed and well carved. I've never seen a game making me think over and over things, and to think about how we react as human beings. And that's coming from a die-hard Witcher 3 fan.
As for the ending, notice how Ellie, when she is about to kill Abby, get her first "good" flash of Joel. Until then, she was only having flashes of him covered in blood. She was filled with anger and hate. And at the end of it all, when she finally gets her hands on Abby, she remembers him smiling with his guitar. Why does she ? Because she finally has the upper ground. She finally is able to let Abby live or die. She saw her enemy falling to a state she's barely recognizable anymore. She saw her nemesis, the one character she once saw as invicible and so much stronger than her, being this frail creature. She finally sees the monster she's been hunting is not existing. And that reminds her of forgiveness. She finds redemption. And her losing her fingers and not being able to play guitar is just a way of showing how much of herself she has been losing on this quest for revenge. I felt the ending was pretty uplifting because Ellie seemed to be at peace with it all, for the first time since Joel took her from the Fireflies. She finally has been able to forgive Joel. She was both hating and loving Joel because on one hand he stole her life purpose (by stealing her immunity purpose) but on the other hand, it's thanks to Joel saving her life that she's been able to experience love and friends and what is closest to a normal life. Joel gave her that possibility. And by forgiving Joel she finally has been able to forgive Abby. And most importantly, she has been able to forgive herself for being alive and not getting infected like Riley. Her life makes sense again. She has grown. And yes, things have been resolved. The ending wasn't about killing a villain (who doesn't exist by the way), it was about forgiveness. And now Ellie has all the cards in hand to play it right and really start over.
This game is a masterpiece. It does have some pacing issues, the game being overstreched in some parts. But you have to bring so much of yourself into the game for it to be rewarding, it's gratifiying. And it's amazing how such a commercial AAA game can be so bold. Just for that, it should be praised instead of being hated blindly.
And i suggest you all take a look at this wonderful interview of Troy Baker, Ashley Johnson and Neil Drunckmann for more details : ruclips.net/video/g6rRfK-V2jY/видео.html
yes.
If you haven't already, I would love for you to join the MinnMax community. It's a bunch of ex-GI people. We had a game club on this game, and I really need someone who has this much to say on it... My posts are always the longest x_x
wow. Just wow
With the term "debate" in the title I guess I expected at least one of them to not have liked the game.
No
*curious innit?*
People who actually like art and not just games tend to like when games are also art. You gamer bros keep saying video games are an art form but when a game is finally bold enough to try and elevate the medium, you cry about it. Get outta here with that shit lol.
@E1V1A this game did nothing for me. that roided up chick is pure comedy poorly done.
@@nothingnowherenobody under no circumstance did I get any of those vibes. It wasn't a perfect story but half the words you used to describe the story as an ultimately watered down the product don't fit in my opinion. But that's my opinion you're entitled to yours. I'm curious what part was laissez faire though?
This is a political game, and if you want to stay in the circle you can’t outright hate it. This is how corruption works.
The sound design really stood out for me in this game. Especially when you hit the first Stalker encounter and the noises they make. Never have I felt more uncomfortable and terrified in a video game before.
Is anybody else dying to jump back in to NG+ like I am? Wow. Masterpiece!!
Already started a NG+
Yeah looking forward to it. Gotta wait a while to reflect first though lol because holy hell was that an emotional thrillride.
Already finished NG+. Imo the story hits WAY harder the second time around (and i already LOVED it the first time)
NG plus.. been there done that 🤤 it's better the second time.. .. stalkers are so damn fun too
Violent acts are contagious, but so are kind acts. Thats the main concept in my eyes.
Someone watched videogamedunkey’s review👀
Great job, This was a very cathartic discussion. I do think there is room for a 3rd and final game.. although I don't know how or what roadmap that story would take.
I personally think that if it involves Ellie in some way, that it has to be some sort of redemption story, hopefully with Dina involved. She truly was my favorite character from either game.
@@poopydoodie11 agreed, I also think it should end with her sacrificing herself for a cure to be manufactured.
Disagree, Ellies and Joels story is closed imo.
They can go on and create other stories in the tlou universe, it would be a waste to not do so. Maybe even continue on with Abbys saga, but dropping the numbered entry would be beneficial in telling more stories.
The way things were headed thematically...probably a sympathetic backstory to David and his cannibal clan:)))
@@SofaKingOverThisIsh I don't necessarily think she needs to sacrifice herself but I think its something Naughty dog would do because they love to pull on our heart strings :)
Crazy to see one comment section that isn't full of insane hate. The game is a god damn masterpiece, it's wild how lost that is on so many people.
Most great movies are penned down or flopped when come out,so now with games almost like movies so with great games, tlou 2 is a masterpiece and the perfect follow up to 1
Mario Debuck that’s a good point, I can think of a few films that are excellent but painful as hell in a way that audiences largely rejected, this is the best video game example of that that I’ve seen
Hard for them to understand the game when they haven't actually played it
So glad we have people who actually understand this game discussing it. I remained completely spoiler free and had the exact same experience. I cried 3-4 different times and I just platinumed it and honestly it still hit hard on my second playthrough which shows just how good the story is
Question, am I the only one that did not recognize Abby at the end at all? She looks so differently. Also, there is another girl hanging on one of the trees who looks a lot like Abby, so I thought that that was her all the time. And I thought Ellie just freed some random woman. EDIT: Btw, you can learn playing the guitar left handed, it's not that big of a deal.
That is for sure. But it needs to be a left-handed guitar. She can't play the Joel's guitar anymore. At least it's what I think. I am not a guitar hahaha.
Hendricks.
Yeah, I thought the girl with the braid was Abby too.
That's the point of that scene. They clearly show the girl with a braid to you. You go over and realize it isn't Abby. Then you hear someone coughing and then realize "Holy crap THAT'S Abby?!". Her hair is short. She's way more thin and less muscular. It's meant to be a shock.
@@ZAKMASTER1022 Exactly. That moment was masterful.
yeah, you could, but ellie plays in fingerpick style, which needs 4 to 5 fingers on your picking hand
Something worth mentioning, nobody seems to have noticed that Ellie is wearing Dina's special bracelet at the end of the game when she returns to the farm. I think that implies they are just fine and that she only went back to leave the guitar there. Maybe they got the happy ending, the player just doesn't get to see it unless you notice the context clues like that bracelet and the fact that she is so calm when she reads the letter in the house
Adds so much weight to Ellie’s line to Sam in the first game about her greatest fear... ‘I guess I’m scared of ending up alone’ 😭
This game was incredible. Naughty Dog makes the best character moments, such human personalities. Ellie and Dina's relationship was so sweet
Damn ya'll were 25-30hrs
It took me 43 hrs to complete. I literally looked for everything & check every room & 100% completion trophy for downtown Seattle...I saw every cut scene also.
Ellie told Joel, in the first one, that she terrified of ending up alone, which is exactly what she was at the end.
1:19:20. I think it was out in the streets fighting the Wolves that I killed a dog and heard someone scream "BEAR". I was so sad going through the dogs later and seeing the name on the cage.
Bear is the guard dog out front of the hospital. You can play fetch with him before leaving the WLF base... it's freaking heart breaking.
Hey! she can play guitar... just has to relearn it as a left handed ;)
That's actually a great silver lining that I didn't consider.
Thank you.
@@gunslingerplays Can she do that with 3 fingers?
Imperfect_Dan yup. You just need your thumb and pointer finger 😊
That’s what I kept thinking lol
@@imperfect_dan7519 some fingerpicking could be a little difficult to play but she can more or less still become a great guitar player :)
He told Ellie the truth, giving her back control of her life and saved Abby the last 24hrs of his life. Joel died a hero.
Abby isn’t a man.
DarkHpokinsn Gaming i know. Joel’s did good the last 24hrs of his life. He almost Singapore handily disbanded the fireflies. That was his redemption arc.
Yeah. What gets me though is there's about two years in between the moment Joel tells Ellie the truth and when he finally dies. That means Ellie and Joel were probably distant for at least that long.
Joel also saved Abby's life at the end of the game. The only reason Ellie spares her is because she remembered her conversation with Joel about forgiveness. He literally saved his killers life twice. Poetry.
Yeah, that's where I feel ND really respects the character, not disprespects him.
My first run through was 34 hrs and I didn't even collect everything and didn't feel like I was going particularly slow, I could have still spent more time exploring certain areas. It's huge.
Am I the only one who thinks The Last of Us is very relatable with The Godfather. The ending of the first game, I think is deeply inspired on part1 of The Godfather, and. in Part 2, I got to 2 conclusions:
1. Ellie finally forgives Joel and moves on (almost like an happy ending).
2 At the same time it feels like Ellie almost destroyed herself, she's alone and without her 2fingers (unable to play the guitar anymore), she destroyed her chance to have a family with Dina... which mirrors Michael Corleone in the end of part 2, who is alone and destroyed his family.
I was going to say Mafia 1 and 2.
Yeah that's the best analogy in my opinion. Just like The Godfather Part II, The Last of Us Part II is incredibly divisive but just like Godfather 2, TLOU2 will be vindicated in the future once everybody stops crying about it.
Read Vince Canby's review of the Godfather Part II from the NY Times in 1974. Entire sections read like criticisms of TLOU Part II, like losing Marlon Brando/Joel, the two plot lines and the darker tone/slower pace. I think people will reassess this game in a few years, once they move through the 5 stages of grief after that opening.
I believe TLoU will end up a trilogy, with the third game being about Ellie finding something worth dying for, at which point TLoU2 will be viewed as an excellent middle act. I think it doesn’t feel like a satisfying ending because it is not an ending (in the same alway Empire Strikes Back does not stand alone as an ending).
@@thrawncaedusl717 Empire Strikes Back is an excellent movie and arguably the best Star Wars movie to date. Comparing TloU2 to ESB is silly because it had great execution, while TLoU2 did not (which is instead clumsy and very polarizing).
I literally had to pause the cinematic with Joel on the floor and calm down. My heart was beating out of my chest, and I had to take a minute to take some deep breaths. The only other game to have ever done that to me was RDR2. Both brilliant games, impeccable acting.
Jeez I needed this. So refreshing.
Awesome discussion! Always a joy to listen to you guys :D
It is kind of telling how even when overall the impact of the story was positive, we still have people like Andy saying "I get why she wanted to do it, but i don't agree with it cause I like Joel" -- Joel being this likable character that much is such a weird trait. You don't really come around to the whole point of Part 2 until you can see how he was just as much of an asshole for killing her dad, as she was for the payback. Joel had it coming, flat out.
Good and bad is contextual.
Someones hero is anothers villain.
That's so crazy. I thought, as I played through, to myself, "when did I play the barn dance scene?" Like when did I experience that. I smoke bud and I was like, woah maybe i need to slow down. But I know that scene front to back after having watched it so many times before release that I thought I'd just rushed through it or something.
''SolidBoss'' Who are you!? The secret fourth son of Big Boss?
@@lucas169 you're the only person who has ever guessed without me having to explain. Always happy to see a fellow MGS fan.
Best discussion about this game I've seen so far. Thanks guys!
People were suspecting Joel's death since the very first "Valley of Death" guitar teaser. There were theories about how you don't see Joel's footsteps directly touch the grass or water, implying he wasn't physically there.
Loved the conversation guys.
One thing everybody seems to be forgetting is that, Ellie is immune, no way that ND will let this major part of the story go.
Remember, TLOU is about Joel AND Ellie. Is about their story(Neil’s words). The other characters are part of the world, but this is their story. So yep, Part 3 will wrap their story up for sure.
I don’t think the story warrants a part 3 really. I just don’t see where they’d take it
I feel this is more a positive discussion over a debate. I feel if you had someone(just one person not everyone) play devil's advocate and discuss a different perspective as well, the video would have been better rounded and more interesting. That being said I respect your opinions(though my own differ) and look forward to your future videos.
Every major games media company dose this
They are all annoyingly pc
@@lukecooper6971 does*
Probably because most people love this game 🤷♂️
nah y'all just wanna hear people hating on the game. there's a million videos and comments about that so go look for them.
Antony V I’m struggling to find positive discussions on RUclips. Again, everyone has an opinion. I enjoyed the game. A lot. It’s cool to hear other people who enjoyed the game talk about their experiences with it. No shade to those who didn’t like it. Hope you enjoyed and got something out of it like I did!
You were spot on when you said this game is unlike any game you played in terms of the way it makes you feel. The feeling I had in the pit of my stomach playing this game was crazy. I don’t think people are ready for a game like this but for me this experience was one of the best I’ve had in gaming and I wish I could get it wiped from my brain so I could experience it all over again.
hardcore same
I'm on my third playthrough of the game and only just realised, the wolf ARE looking for Tommy when they get to Jsckson.
So you were right, technically.
They arrived their searching for Tommy, not Joel himself.
Can you imagine what they thought when not just Tommy but also Joel walked right into their hands.
Anby first hears Tommy and Joel's names in the ski lodge while running from infected.
You can see the reaction and surprise in her eyes. She keeps glancing over at Joel as her mind races to comprehend finding them both.
This isn’t a debate.
Frrrr I was like okay cool I liked the game but want to see other perspectives, then I turned this on but everybody’s just talking about all the reasons they liked it with almost no downside and/or negatives smh
Just four guys licking the game like a beached whale
@@matthewgonzalez2727 can you really not find negative reviews? that's hilarious because I can't avoid them.. want me to link you to some?
37:48 I actually think Owen’s a much better person than Abby, but I don’t think he’s a great character. Abby’s a better character.
wait that’s wild to me, Abby grew on me but I liked Owen from the jump, that dude’s so likeable, I’m curious if y’all just thought he was dull or what?
Good discussion guys. Enjoyed it a lot
How the fuck did I not realize you could climb the dinosaur???? Well guess I gotta play again.
I like what they say at the ending, which I've said myself: Naughty Dog can do whatever, and the characters and story will be amazing. Sci fi game would have been amazing.
It’s great to hear from people who avoided spoilers like I did. It seems that people who saw the spoilers hate the game and refuse to play it, and the people who managed to avoid them really love the game. The only spoiler I saw was Joel dies but I didn’t see screenshots that leaked and I didn’t know who killed him. This game was so powerful going in blind and I feel sorry for anyone that didn’t get to experience this game in a pure way.
Amazing how bias works huh? I said the same thing
yeah but everyone had a choice about how to handle this game.. some people want to dig their heels in and hate it.. most people want to decide for themselves.. fuck the leakers
I get why people didn't care for the story.... But that just wasn't my experience AT ALL.
Joe's line, "Initiate the Beatdown," could be a great title for TLOU2 SLC.
About the Rattlers being the baddy faction... one of the most jaw dropping moments was when you, as Abby, walk into the WLF building to meet Isaac and walk into a torture prison! Like WTF!?! And Owen may be not the best man (cheating on Mel), but he is the one who can't stand this and seeks a way out, while Abby is still blinded by here fury and drive to kill Joel and doesn't see the cruelty around her.
I’m ready for this! I love hearing people talk about this game. Even if it’s negative, in reason.
@Moogle Midgar 🤣🤣🤣 lol, stop trolling
It's a fucking masterpiece. Finished it on Sunday and I'm still so fucking torn about it.
Yaaas =)
@Moogle Midgar what a troll
@@sergiarilla8608 Same, I feel like it was as much as a non ending as the first one which I love because then there's a lot of speculation and questions involved, im still thinking about it now 4days later
They basically felt and thought the same experience i had. YES, would love the last of us 3
0:35:50
Alex laughing like he’s a wealthy wholesome man ❤️
When I heard that there were spoilers leaked and that people were complaining about the writing, I assumed the worst. I thought that Abby was going to be revealed to be Sarah, Joel's dead daughter, which would have been ridiculous. Thankfully I was wrong in that regard.
That's funny. My assumptions were really out there lol. I thought the Seraphite leader was going to end up being Ellie's mom... and Abby's! Thank God a better writer had control of the plot haha.
I love you guys. I love that you get this game. I can't believe how much hate it is getting. The story is strange and controversial, but it's such a masterpiece. Please people stop hating and give it a chance. I mean, what games do even compare to this?! Play it and judje it for yourself!
Fine game but definetly not 10/10 and far from being called a masterpiece.
They failed at making Abby likeable and justified. Her dad wanted and was gonna kill Ellie without her consent. Had they asked I’m sure she would’ve done it and would’ve made Joel understand her decision. But no, Marlene only chose to tell Joel. Joel then went to save his adoptive daughter and Abby’s dad tried to stop that. That’s why he died.
Fast forward to this game and Abby on her quest for unjustified revenge not only kills Joel but tortures a man whose crime was saving his adoptive daughter. Abby never reckons with torturing Joel. Naughty Dog then makes you play as Abby for half the game, and even has Ellie as a boss fight. To add insult to injury, Abby’s story parts were boring as fuck because I was never invested in her.
The game, at least for me, is all about the story, and they failed miserably in this regard.
@@marcuskane1040 well that's going to be subjective I guess. The amount of hate and dislike seems disproportionate though.
@@quantaplusplus For sure it doesn't deserve 0 scores. Everything below 7 already sounds a bit harsh tbh, but on the other side such tags like masterpiece doesn't make sense as well, since this game has a lot of flaws.
@@marcuskane1040 It is certainly flawed, but what game isn't? Can you mention a game that you'd call a masterpiece? The major issue with TLOU2 is that its story is polarizing. Too many people hate it. That is a big flaw, but in many other aspects the game is unparalleled, especially acting, world building, graphics, sound design, etc.
i want a abby / lev DLC adventure pack.
I want the dlc to fill in the gap between Ellie leaving Jackson and getting to Santa Barbara or Joel just after Sarah's death
Make them the protagonists for Part 3!
Or Lev and his sister DLC. Explore the town ect. Get some background on the culture/religion and their mother. I'd love any story dlc though
Would probably sell even worse than Lost Legacy.
@@suplextrain TLOU2 is fastest selling PlayStation exclusive by miles.. not that sales validate whether a game is good or not, but since you brought up sales, I thought I would just remind you that the game is doing great!
WHAAAT, you can climb up the T-Rex??
31:12 Yeah, I thought the same thing at first too
Good talk but a bad debate. Given the circumstances surrounding reactions to the game, it would have been nice to see those issues actually debated.
The only issues are fan boys crying. If you think about the the full story you get it.
Actually it's a pretty generic revenge plot and god awful characters, it had some good moments but was ultimately a let down. Amazing gameplay though and production values!!!
They are just level headed people who actually finished the game. You must be used to hearing dumb sheep on a hatewagon.
@@TheNightWolf-WildCraft Simple story with complex characters and one of the best writing in a media.
@@TheNightWolf-WildCraft It's hardly a generic revenge story. Generic revenge story is John Wick. Hero wronged -> enemies pay. This story is WAY more nuanced and inviting of challenge and discussion than that.
In a post apolocalyptic world, where people kill each other for tooth paste, watch as the main character kills dozens and dozens of side characters just to leave the murderer of your dad alive.
Did all of the critics really played last of us 1. Joel and tommy being so careless with these new characters is so stupid. Like, I understand Joel and Tommy had to go with Abby to her hideout but they dont have to reveal their names, locations so easily. Joel is the defination of not trusting anyone and he survived these long years by being smart, and careful. The characters in last of us 2 are not the same as last of us 1. They were made retarded just so that the plot can move on.
A 8 months pregnant woman goes to frontline and the group is okay with it just so that Ellie can accidentally kill her and make Ellie look bad.
Abby leaves Ellie and Tommy alive after killing Joel even when Ellie is shouting from the top of her lungs that she is going to murder them. How can these characters kill sideline characters so easily but dont kill people who will likely come for revenge? Just so that the plot continues
Even after Ellie killing dozens of Abbys friend, she spares Ellie.
They play " She is pregnant" card three times.
Tommy and Ellie forgetting to take the map.
Tommy trying to stop Ellie from getting revenge for Joel because he cares for her and at the end, when Ellie and Dina have somewhat nice family, he guilt trips Ellie to get revenge. Is it because he was injured by Abby.
Just have a clear mind and see how many coincidences are needed for the plot to forward. The story is based on coincidences and out of character and stupid decisions.
And then when gamers who loved the first last of us say they dont like what neill cuckman did with their characters and the story, the media calls all of us bigots, virgins, homophobic, etc etc. I am okay with lgbtq characters, killing of joel( killing mentor character is a trope) but the way they handled it, so dissapointing. I am also okay with people liking it. I only care when universally acclaimed series are dragged to mud and when people who are not happy about it complain about it, we are not taken seriously. I just dont want my favourite medium of entertainment to get rotten. One thing that I learned from this, never trust any one reviewer, or social media gamer. Only trust in yourself. The irony.
EDIT: I dont know how but people have turned the replies into have you played the game to comment about it type of discussion. While that discussion is good and should be discussed. My main comment is not about that, my main comment is about the lazy ways the story moves forward. So if anyone has answers to all of my points do comment, if anyone wants to add some other plotholes and stupid decisions, do comment. Lets not sidewalk.
💯
I understand where you’re coming from, but I think you’re missing the message of this game. Did you actually play the entire game yourself or did you just watch gameplay or see the spoilers?
@@squalooceano2291 what message revenge is bad that is a stupid message when you consider all the people Ellie killed up to now what about those people's family coming for revenge sorry the revenge is bad falls apart near the end
@@squalooceano2291 It's so sad that we live in a world where people of all socioeconomic backgrounds can discuss video games that are streamed in their entirety for free on the internet, yet people like you still want to gatekeep and suggest you can't have an opinion unless you held the controller yourself.
Joel careless?? I mean it's not like he doomed humanity in the first game by Killing the only person that can possibly make a cure, but Joel's PTSD kicked in cuz he couldn't let go of Sara and treats Ellie like a daughter, it was just a dad moment saying fuck you to the cure I want my baby girl alive, so he wasn't careless in the second one, he had the mindset of "this person is in trouble so I'm helping her out because I want to do something good for once" that backfires and he dies, the reason as to why Joel was strong in the original was because he thought he lost everything and lost all hope so he stopped caring and moved on, By teaming up with Ellie it awoke something that was dead a feeling of care, so he adopts Ellie, then in this game it shows that Ellie was pissed off with Joel and they distance eachother like a father and teenage daughter would do when they have a disagreement about something, when Joel died, he just gave up and accepted what's happening, he was ready to go
i didn't know gibby worked at game informer
I really don't get everyone's discomfort with the Nora scene lol. I fucked that bitch up, especially after what she said about Joel. I remember the second she said it and ran I became enraged and audibly said through gritted teeth as I held down L1 _"I'ma fuckin get you bitch!"_ It was pretty cathartic for me. I, just like Ellie, wanted revenge. I think a lot of people feel really protective of Ellie but to me that's an inability to truly empathize with her. I felt LIKE Ellie in this game. I felt what she was feeling, I went through the same journey she did. From blind rage, pain and thirst for vengeance to, ultimately, understanding and forgiveness.
I guess a lot of people can't take themselves out of the Joel role and feel like they're watching over Ellie rather than inhabiting her. When Joel was killed, through Ellie I felt like my father figure was killed too.
I generally loved the story, my issues with it were that it was a 15 hour story stretched into 25 hours. Not only that, but I think they should have made abby's campaign cut between ellie's. All emotional moments for abby were deafened by playing ellie literally hours beforehand. All in all I'd give it a 8
Agreed. I couldn't understand why I had to play Abby's story straight through for 12 hours. The last 5 hours of her campaign I was SO over it; it was a slog and I was forgetting the impact and events of Ellie's part of the story. I couldn't even really soak in the mastery of the burning Scar village set piece cuz I just wanted it to be done.
I feel like years from now people are going to look back and see how groundbreaking this game was. It's a shame more people can't see it right now.
I find some solace in that, shame time has to pass for that to happen.
There was a lot of early hate from bigots, and then a huge number of negative impressions from people who just watched their favorite streamer play through in the first week. Most people who actually play this game seem to enjoy it.
Great discussion and analysis of this terrific game
They told you they wouldn't make you kill a dog. Then they made you kill the dog.
Am I the only one that found absolutely no chemistry between Dina and Ellie?
Matthew's Couch yes
Matthew's Couch at first I did, but by then end I really felt it. At the start of Seattle I thought Dina was kind of obsessed with Ellie and Ellie just wasn’t having it, and then I looked in Ellie’s journal and she was talking about how much she loved her and I was like wtf hahaha. I think it was good by the end though
That is what "forcing an agenda" through a story looks like.
Heavon and what agenda was that
Yes
Four people that all agree with each other on everything doesn’t feel like much of a debate. Having half the panel that didn’t like it and the other that loved it would generate better discourse imo.
they just wanted to show people that their review was good while it was not
or.. they all actually liked the game and u missed the whole point of the game?
call me gary or you missed the point of the video title that says they are debating the plot twists, not talking in an echo chamber to reinforce each others similar thoughts about how much they all loved the same things. I can watch a video with one person explaining how much they enjoyed the plot without needing to hear three other people join in with “I agree” if I wanted. The point to watching was to hear a group debate the plot, which is what the title implied, but that didn’t occur. My point has nothing to do with the game itself or the plot, so no I didn’t miss the point of the game.
I played Abby's section of the game wrong. When Ellie confronts her in the theatre and it shows her perspective, I thought it was just another short segment like it was in the beginning. I didn't realise it was an entire second half of the game, so I rushed through it at the start trying to skip the immersion and exploration. When I saw how long it was going I thought "oh, hang on. this is Metal Gear Solid 2 all over again. Gotta slow down."
Also, after Joel died, I thought back to that first trailer and the first release date trailer and thought the story would be about Ellie going crazy and hallucinating a Joel ghost or something.
So we know that Abby reached the ex firefly group she was searching for. So I think it would be a nice ending to the main series if we play as her for a bit and find out that they have someone that can make a cure and Ellie ends up going through with it and they make the cure from her. Obviously they'd need to have some extra story in there but that would be an ending to the series that I would be happy with.
I have to give a little pushback. After we get to the resolution of why Abby killed Joel and it comes full circle, I could've done without 10+ hrs of story line to Abby's story.
I didn't care enough about the support characters of the WLC to see and want to know their backstory.
You’re missing the point
Well I just think that they should have shortened it, because I got what they wanted and in the end it ultimately worked because I got the sense at the final fight "it's not worth it, just let it go Ellie" which is what i think the writers wanted you to feel. in my opinion it Abby's story should have been somehting like 5 hours ish (because like many others I did not really care/like her because she killed joel)
@@emmanuell9753 How are they missing the point? They're giving an opinion they they didn't feel about anything about the characters. Neither did I.
@@cdobersteify because the point was to build empathy for someone on the other side. When I learned all of Abby's motivations, I still hated that she killed Joel, but I understood her. I saw her fight and struggle through a lot of extreme hardship to survive. The entire point of the game is that empathy to see people on the other side of the fence as human instead of "other" is a key part of humanity. I agree that from a gameolay perspective Abby's story coyld have been cut down to 5 hours, mostly because it's tiring to restart the story and play through all three days from another perspective. I think they could have made quite a bit of her gameplay into narrative cut scenes amd not forced the player to get from point A to point B to pad out the play time. But story-wise, I was down with all of it, because I was getting a new pwrspective on everything that happened before the evemts of the game, as well as my actions as Ellie in the first half.
@@nickharris5231 I never said I didn't acknowledge that. I said SUPPORT characters. I understood why Abbey felt the way she felt. I got that from her introduction in the Day 1 section. I didn't 8-10 more hours of story after that. That's wasn't going to make me change my feelings of her even thought I got why she hated Joel.
With that said, I still didn't care enough of the supporting characters of the WLC to care. I still didn't learn more of the seraphites on Abbey's perspective than I did on Ellie's perspective. After I took out those members with Ellie, I was done with them. I couldn't care less. My feelings about them could've probably changed had Naughty Dog allow me to shift between Ellie and Abby throughout the story instead of making me play one perspective and then another's.
SPOILERS
What i dont get is Ellie, kills 200 guys but decides to forgive Abby, not only that, but i just cant empathize with Abby at all, what she did to Joel is too cruel, Joel had WAY more reasons to kill his father.
well that is kinda simple actually. it is a game where you have to enjoy the journey/mechanics. "game" needs these things to keep you engaged it is normal. have you ever played a game before?.
Joel had no reason to kill her father other than not wanting to lose Ellie, just a selfish reason for himself and no one else.
If someone killed my father i would seek revenge and torture them myself. She only went after Joel and no one else.
And for deciding to forgive Abby, she was going to kill her but then got the flashback of Joel sitting on the porch with his guitar because that’s when she said she was going to try and forgive him for robbing her of giving her life meaning, which is why she ultimately decided to try and forgive Abby.
Dhaanish Kamran bruh that’s dumb as hell. That’s a horrible reason to let her go and id say not wanting to lose a daughter figure is a good reason. And if you’d torture a person your messed up no matter what they did.
@@Thenormieking The whole reason she abby live is because she realised she is in the exact same position as abby was. Ellie essentaily becomes the villain, blinded by hatred. Or did that fly over your head?
because they can't make a good game is the answer
One thing I loved about this game was that it made me love or at least empathize with every single character, as they're all locked in desperate, hopeless cycles of hatred and violence against one another. Brutal game. Great discussion
Thank you guys... This TLOUP2 discussion is probably the best representation of the game and what the game was trying to portray, that exists at the moment online. I loved this game, and after watching your guys talk about it and certain points that you made... Made me realize how brilliant this sequal is.
RUclipsr Laserrz came to the same conclusion in his pre review sumnary of the game. You should check it out. He will do a more thorough review soon.
Firstname Lastname Thank you. I'll check it out.
Great job guys. Really explained yourselves and showed why this was the greatest game ever
SPOILERS HERE
I really enjoyed this game, it was an impactful story about hate and it allows us to play as the character who was on the receiving end of Joel’s carnage. It took me a while to warm up to Abby, but I still understood her rage. The back and forth momentum of revenge between Ellie and Abby was intense. Losses on both sides, but I think Ellie let go of that anger when she changed her mind before killing Abby. Still Ellie’s path for revenge cost her a lot.
1:23:50 I don’t think there SHOULD be, but if there is, I think Abby and Lev would take center seat, returning to the Fireflies, and Ellie would have to die at the end, giving her life for the cure finally.
I do think if Ellie is featured it would involve some sort of redemption for her. If she is in it, I hope DIna is as well.
nailed it.
A great mirror image that I only recognized after playing is Maria and Isaac. You have Maria who is a fair peacemaker and considers the well-being of her community, while Isaac rules with fear, approved Abby's mission for revenge, and went on a useless war against the Seraphites. I wish we'd seen more of Maria, but hard to say where else she could be inserted in the story. Also, I guess she got the same amount of "screen time" as Isaac.
I just finished the game this morning then jumped to watch this video. I agree with all of you. When Joel died, I was completely mad, so enrage, screaming at my tv: "you're all fucking dead, I'll kill you all". And when I was fighting Elie AS Abby, I was so confuse and didn't know what to think anymore. And then right at the end, when Elie and Abby are fighting, I was barely holding it together, just saying "no, no, no" all the time trying to end it as fast as I could. What a fucking roller coaster that was. What a game.
I really don't get why people are like shocked and awe about killing and violence in this game. You did this in the first game and almost all games let you kill and do shit. Is it the animation or is it some glorified Sonypony shit?
It’s a bunch of little touches, like the enemies yelling out the name of the guy you kill, the brutal animations, the death sounds that seem to be going way too long, and the “second campaign” that occasionally shows you the exact same people you killed earlier in a non-combatant context. It is definitely mostly stagecraft, but it is highly effective and does elevate the game moderately.
@@thrawncaedusl717 I agree. Personally I loved all these touches. Unlike games such as DOOM or MK (games I enjoy, don't freak out), the violence in TLOU and TLOU2 serves a narrative and plot purpose. It fits the world and communicates the horror of killing whereas games like DOOM or MK glorify it.
The gore in this game is VERY detailed, if you stop to inspect the damage, you almost want to try to sneak past.
well that was a twist at the end there .. the people who have the problem with the violence is the haters, not the other way around.. lmao
Use an explosive arrow against a human opponent in this game and you'll understand lol. It's. Freaking. Horrifying. Doom is pretty over the top, but it helps that you're killing demons. Nobody likes demons.
This game will have incredible multiplayer if they can do this in their regular campaign
The Last of Us was the GREATEST GAME EVER MADE! The Last Of Us Part II is the game:
NOBODY WAS READY FOR
NOBODY WANTED
Everyone HATED IT
10 years from now, It will be considered the Greatest Game Ever Made! The most adored. It's going to take people time to catch up. The world just wasn't ready for this.
So if you loved it in 2020... congratulations...you my friend are ahead of the curve. The world just needs time to catch up 😎😎
#TLOU2 is the #GOAT
Its so great seeing a mature discussion about the art of story and what it sorts out to do. Really enjoyed this, thanks guys!
The game does such a fantastic job of subverting your expectations and your preconceived notions of who to root for. It's a powerful experience, a piece of media only. That can be told in games due to the interactive nature. I'm glad there was little player agency because it reduces the weight of the story. The impact of story beats fall apart then. Its not our story to tell. We are just a byproduct of the narraitive. I think the parallels that run across Joel Ellie and abbys arc is so well done. We can see what they all lost and that violence just kick starts more loss.
The details in this game... if you look up, you actually see the sky bridges.
If they make a 3rd one, they should fast forward to where Ellie is the age of what Joel was during the first game. Feel like that would be a nice nod.
Am I the only one who liked the story but found the gameplay lacking compared to other Naughty Dog games?
Would love to know in more detail what you mean. Is it the lack of innovation in overall mechanics?
@@MrSiloterio Well I have nothing against the mechanics itself. I thought it was a nice refinement of TLOU 1 gameplay loop wise. I also enjoyed the Uncharted Lost Legacy-esque open world section in the beginning too. It was more the pacing of the gameplay itself. Take for example the "hidden loading screens", yeah I very much prefer these compared to cutting to black and waiting for a chunk of the level to load. But I felt in TLOU2 there were so many of them that the "hidden" loading screens were noticeable and prevalent at least to me.
There were so many times where you have to hold triangle to push a shelf out of the way or help boost a partner. Or a section where you have to squeeze through a tight corridor or vent. Or even the door lifting partner animation straight from Uncharted 4. I mean I know that this has been implemented in almost all the Naughty Dog games but this was the first time I actively felt the game was forcibly and noticeably slowing me down so it can load assets. Whereas the past Naughty Dog games it's unnoticeable unless you look for it. Best way I can describe it is that it felt stop and go throughout the levels, like driving through perpetual speedbumps.
I know that puzzle-solving isn't a main mechanic of the TLOU franchise but I felt that the "move this dumpster/crate in order to vault over a high ledge" got old even in Uncharted 4. Like even in Lost Legacy they made fun of how frequent that mechanic was in Uncharted 4 with Nadine even saying "Let's avoid crates from now on". But for them to put back a mechanic that they actively knew players found tedious is something to take note of. I also liked the concept of the Safecracking but for most of them to just resort to finding a note/graffiti/poster isn't puzzle solving or deduction but just straight up taking dictation.
The last contention gameplay-wise I have is the added complexity of the arenas. Of course, once you add a jumping mechanic you're going to have the freedom to add verticality to the combat sections. But I feel like the added scale and multi-tiered levels also bogged down the game's pacing. Like I loved TLOU1's floor/room based combat where you have to flank your enemies in small maze-like environments. Here I felt like it was a chore to get to the enemy whilst also being omniscient of the sightlines of the enemies below or above you. And once combat did break out I only found myself using a quarter of said arena. Only after the fact getting to see all the cool neat little things they added in the rest of the space so you can be creative in combat (I.E unhooking the chained clickers, a waterway you can use to flank, a locked room full of runners you can use to unleash on the WLF, etc)
I don't hate the game, in fact I actually enjoyed it. It's definitely not as good as the other Naughty Dog games. But I wouldn't go as far as saying it was a bad game. But at the same time I'd be lying if I said that I didn't felt fatigued playing through the levels trying to get to the next story beat in this game due to pacing.
Couple things.
1) it’s refreshing to see people saying how great the game was and who understood the layered nuances.
2) I love people saying “ lou2 expected me to care about Abby and lev and them, we spent an entire game with Joel and Ellie. So we connect to them..... mo+herfucker... last of us part 1 was 10 hours long. You spent the same amount of time with Abby and her crew just as long as you bonded with Ellie and Joel.
3)people mad ellie didn’t kill Abby in the end... it’s great to know that a character you loved o much you’re willing to trade the last shred of her humanity for revenge. The game is about forgiveness. By her letting go of Abby, she was forgiving Joel just as much as she was forgiving Abby.... how people can say it’s bad writing ... but Joel and Ellie on another cookie cutter zombie adventure is amazing???? Gtfo
4) people don’t know how to process their emotions . The game made people physically angry and sad. That’s the mark of AMAZING writing . That the story made you feel the actual visceral emotions of the characters... but people are confusing the intentionally induced rage or sadness as bad writing..
I compare it to wresting. We know it’s staged... but when they whip up a good story we find our selves hating the wrestlers even though deep down we know they’re acting
Also, I think it’s obvious a part 3 was implied (whether it’ll happen now with all these shitty fanboys crying)
Empire strikes back is most people’s favorite Star Wars movies... but without return of the Jedi it’s one of the worst movies ever. Jedi gave context and closure to the story highlighting all the amazing parts of empire....
Empire ended sad, with the bad guys winning and the heroes losing everything ... reminds me of the last of us 2... even part one. The firefly hospital is the Death Star.. , part two ellie(Luke) loses their mentors (Joel/obiwan) and loses everything .
Part three I see Ellie sacrificing her self to create a cure but forgave happy ending , the twist is they can get the cure with out killing her
Hardcore agreed with this analysis. I’d bet money most of the people who trash on the game either had it spoiled for them or didn’t actually play it. Praying for a part 3 where we get some indication of what happened to her after she walked away, it would break my heart if that’s the last we see of her.
TheFreshTrumpet if it was meant to be a two parter from day one. Then okay. I accept that it’s a bitter sweet ending . And for last of us, that is on brand.
I worry a part 3 might not happen because of the player reviews. But since Neal said from day one this game would divide fans. Makes me feel part 3 was green lit years ago.
And he’s fucking with us. Piss people off just to have a troll moment when 3 comes out and all the haters get proven wrong.
Fingers crossed .
Gotta slightly disagree with the Rattler assessment, as there was a note you could find where one of the Rattlers was sending meat to his elderly mother and stated that she should get "fatty cuts" because she looked too skinny. So they really even put effort into making the player empathize with some of the Rattlers
Had to say this. u have forgot 1 key point that is more important than any other. "Eli is emune" perfectly set up for a final chapter where Eli dies to save humanity. ( in another great game)
I fail to see how dedicating half the game playing as Abby doesn’t hurt this game significantly. Abby was the protagonist in this, not Ellie. So much time, money, resources, were dedicated in selling Abby to you the player, at the cost of Ellie’s story in the final product. The majority of the biggest plot events take place while playing as Abby and it was very obvious that she was the main character because she goes through every contrived character development plot point that we’ve seen in any narrative based game. It’s like ND were saying “See! She’s a great character. Look at the hardship she’s going through too! She’s suffering as well!”, but it just falls short. The problem with trying to sell that idea is that you better pray the players like Abby by the end of it all, and it seems the majority didn’t. Myself included. She’s was a poorly designed character, and she pushed the character we wanted to play to the side. It’s such a blunder, narratively, and it makes the game a slog to get through if you don’t like her.
I like that you said 'if you dont like her' finally someone who doesn't, acknowledging a lot of us liked/loved Abby and the story on a whole.
I hated hurting Ellie as Abby and vice versa at the end.. loved both characters.
shurednichso There are trolls, but there are also valid reasons to dislike some of the character choices (such as the choice to make Ellie a psycho killer with no self-awareness).
I think the writing is generally fantastic, but by the end I did have a seeking suspicion that the only relationships Druckman knows how to write are based on good humored insults (his version of Whedons famous/infamous quips). If that style grates on you (and it even started grating on me), Abby quickly becomes the character most associated with it (though again, I still thought she was better than Ellie in this game because at least she wasn’t a hypocritical psycho killer with no self-awareness).
@@thrawncaedusl717 I agree! I enjoyed the game thoroughly, but definitely agree with your comment, there are two factions who are disliking the game, people who haven't played it but are obsessively trying to destroy it anyway based on the few things they do know about it and people who have played it and genuinely just didn't get what most of us got from it.
shurednichso That’s such a cop out reply. I don’t like Abby which doesn’t mean I hate her. I empathize with Abby, in many way more than Ellie. I actively feel as if so much of the production of this game was dedicated in the attempt to “sell” Abby to us. Whether that was to sell us to empathize or to sell us to like her, or maybe both? We’ll never know, but I can say her portion of the game was 50% too big. So much fluff in her story where nothing thematically changes. I didn’t see Abby as the bad guy in this game, but the catalyst that started a cascade of events through her desire for revenge. I like that narrative, but I do not like not having what feels like the majority of the game devoted to “teaching” us that she’s okay. Write the character, don’t try to sell me a character. That’s my gripe about it. Her story would have been so much more enticing if it were routinely interjected within Ellie’s gameplay. Ellie was supposed to be the character going to the Seraphite Island, Ellie was supposed to be the one who fights the first infected, but recent interviews by Haley Gross and Neil Druckmann revealed that they changed it to work in Abby’s story to continue in selling us her plight, and I say it didn’t pay off.
THANK YOU. Thank you sooooo much Joe Juba for making that Breaking Bad connection. I felt the exact same way !!!!!!!!!
My take on the ending was that it set the groundwork for a part 3 final installment with Ellie, Abby, Dina, JJ, Lev, Tommy (& perhaps new characters). Ellie would ultimately reach a re-established Fireflies base & sacrifice herself for a cure. She wanted her life/immunity to matter & this would be the ultimate way to resolve her character’s arc & end the story.
Love to finally see some people on youtube that enjoying the game!
Well... Most of us were playing the game... So either be on youtube hating the game or playing it... We are arriving now...