When trimming your brass prevents your bolt closing
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
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So my friend Erik Cortina just called me and asked if I had checked to see if the blade was dull because that can also cause some mouth flare (lip). Turns out that when I checked the blade I rotated it to use a new cutter head as well so there's every chance it was actually in adjustment, but that cutter head had worn out. Either way it's an important lesson for me to keep up on the tools I use all the time even if they don't seem like tools that need to be checked.
How many cases do you think you’ve trimmed to get to that point? I’ve got several thousand on my blade and am curious how long they last before you have to rotate the blade.
@@jlppayette4992 my best guess is I’ve trimmed close to 15-20k cases on it before it started to dull.
One important point - tools don't stay sharp forever. Thanks for the video. I always check the edge with my fingernail. A simple method.
I had my LE Wilson cutter sharpened this past summer. Man what a difference.
I just had this exact same issue! I'm not entirely sure yet but I think my debur tool may be dull. I took some empty cases I had trimmed, chamfered and deburred to check them, and though they looked fine I could feel a burr with my nail (like how you check a knife you're sharpening). I can't find anything else wrong with them so I'm guessing that's the issue. Do you have a recommendation for knocking that burr off without having to grind more brass away? Could I use steel wool? Run it on a ceramic hone or diamond strop?
Tips like these are why i watch your channel
same here, sometimes my wallet needs CPR after watching his reviews and such. The one of the Giraud trimmer is why I go it myself or the auto trickler V3 on the way..
@@mikeq7096 You guys are too kind. Thank you.
Glad to see others sharing issues. Gives us amateur loaders something to keep an eye on 👍
F-Class John: Great content and thank you for sharing. I had a similar issue which made this video particularly apropos. I normally wet tumble brass in stainless steel media for 30 to 45 minutes. This gets the brass clean enough while minimizing peening and mushrooming of the case mouth. I also had my Giraud trimmer slightly biased to the inside of the case mouth to prioritize chamfering over deburring. I left some brass in the media for a week on accident, picked up a lot of water spotting and decided to clean again thereby doubling the tumbling time. Somewhere in the middle charging primed cases I realized that I had the same problem you are presenting in this video. I checked other loaded rounds from previous reloading cycles and found the same issue though to a lesser degree. We put a lot of effort into cutting straight chambers, bedding our actions and building consistent and low run-out ammunition. This video is a good reminder that there is another level of quality control/inspection that doesn't take much time to verify and correct but, if ignored, can have detrimental down range effects or even cause malfunctions. Thank you again!
Thank you and I'm glad it helped. It seems a lot of people in the comments don't realize the Giraud trims/chamfers/deburrs all at the same time so it's been a struggle in some ways for this video to make sense to everyone. I'll probably do a follow up explain exactly what's going on with the machine and ways you have to make sure you maintain it. I think then it'll make more sense to those who aren't familiar with how it works. BTW, don't forget to look for dull blades on your Giraud, they cause havoc too.
Thanks. Good job explaining that. I ran into the same thing when using "prepared" 223 brass. Slight lip on the outside of the neck. Took awhile to figure it out. Had to rechamfer it all.
Thats why you use a chamfer tool after trimming. I’m 72 years old and have been reloading ammo since i was 13. I have never had this problem. I load for 6 different rifles and more than 8 pistols. Take the time to know ALL the proper steps to reloading ammo.
Do your rifles have have factory chambers.
Yes!!!! I had that same problem with 6.5x47 recently, I used my chamfering tool to get rid of it after a long and arduous problem solving. Funny thing is that’s the only caliber it’s happening too, must be a tight chamber
My trimmer blade has not dulled. However it did move out and create a slight gap and was doing just what you showed here. It took me some time to find the issue. It's all good now. This a great video. Thanks!
Have been reloading for 47 years and never ran into this problem , but will keep an eye out for this ! Thanks I think !…….
I had the same thing with a batch of rounds. Found it after loading when they were sticking when I checked them on my Sheridan Slotted Case gage. Those slotted gages are SO nice, instantly allowing you to see where a problem lies. Just wish they'd go ahead and make one for 7 PRCW...
I am nowhere near your level of experience John, but I DO use a large desktop magnifying glass with built in LED light (which also has a 10x? small lens built in) when I do brass prep and it helps a lot. It is amazing what you can see under magnification. I inspect every case neck before it goes in the loading tray. It doesn't take THAT much more time and it eliminates any potential issues like this. Just a thought. Thank you for all your info sharing!
That takes an ass load of time 😂
@@newerest1 I'm only doing 100 or 200 cases at a time for precision loads so it's not that bad. And once you see it, you can't unsee it. Lol. I'm quite patient and never in a hurry so....works for me. Necessary? Nope. Satisfying for OCD type? Yep. Can't help it. :/
Excellent information. Thanks!
My pleasure. Also make sure to check for dull blades as they may have actually been the culprit, either way it was an important lesson to maintain all my tools, not just the obvious ones.
These are the problems I would love to have 😂
My chamber is clearly not match enough and my trimmer is not Giraud enough 😪
After you trim your cases hit them with a deburring tool that will help fix that problem
and a chamfer tool
It looks to be chamfered. It seems his cutter was dull and pushed it back instead of trimming/chamfering.
Trimming is the WORST part of reloading.
Why ? Do you trim so often ? I have to trim my brass every 5 firing to remove about 2 thousands only
Thanks John I’ll definitely look out for this had a few rounds not chamber and discarded them now I’ll have a better look next time.
That was one good thing to share. Thanks for the information
Good catch. Great information. Thanks.
Thanks. Prior to using a LE Wilson trimmer, my cases neck looked liked dog had chewed on them. Using my LE Wilson trimmer I end up with an accurate clean trim.
I actually ran into this on a case of new Federal GMM ammo. Some would chamber & others wouldn't. After checking headspace & other dimensions that checked good I noticed when I grabbed them by the neck I could feel a slight lip at the case mouth on the ones that wouldn't chamber & not on those that would. Removed the lip & they all chambered fine.
I guess that's why I use a chamfering tool. Works well for me.
I run a Wilson hand trimmer with TIN cutter - works a treat, just ensure to chamfer inside and outside of the case neck to shave away the rough edges - smooth bolt close everytime provided you bump back correctly.
I had an issue with my Wilson trimmer that after debur and chamfer the case would measure longer than it did right after trimming. This was even when it was brand new.
No laughing here. That would be frustrating. Thank you for sharing.
Thanks for great info! Been mulling the idea of getting a Giraud trimmer for my high volume 223 loads.
Too bad that up here in Canada , the genuine Giraud Trimmers are as scarce as Big Foot riding a Unicorn because they won't ship internationally.
A guy out of Winnipeg sells his own knock offs... BUT... if you buy one, more often than not you either have to re-wire the motor (because it spins in the wrong direction) OR take out the blade and flip it around. A few guys up here bought them and used them right out of the box... they may as well used an angle grinder to champer their prized brass !!
Are you trimming without chamfering and deburring them afterwards?
When the cutters on the Giraud are set to spec the trimmed brass is demurred and chamfered beautifully.
Thanks
Thanks John
Some rounds would chamber quite hard. I used to trim rarely so no deburring either or so I thought. I tumbled my brass for the afternoon in STM. Mabye I had work to do during the weekend so you know the tumbler would keep on running until I had time to process my brass so mabye 2h, mabye 5h. It depended. I got occasional huge pressure spikes. I kept shooting light loads but occasional high or massive pressures. Since I only shoot mabye 300 rounds a year it took me several years to connect the dots. The tumbling beat up my case necks. They became thick and kinda bell mounted or burred. The neck in the standard .260 Rem is tapered. Since the burr on different cases varied. The big burrs would jam in the tapered neck and crimp the bullet to the case and chamber causing large pressure spikes.
Nobody likes catching a lip when your running your bullet into the chamber... LOL On a serious note you rock brother thanks for sharing your knowledge!!!
Thank you. Yeah it seriously sucks and I'm just grateful it didn't happen before a match.
Yeah Daniel, that is the worst thing that can happen on a Saturday night 😂
@@boermetroer1714 LMAO
Late to the party here but this is exactly why I scratch my head in wonder why no one has created diamond inside and outside chamfer tool. I feel it would leave a much smoother finish and diamond doesn't clog as bad as some think. I have some diamond files and if the clog they can be washed clean for use a fine brass brush. Maybe it was tried before but if so I've never seen diamond chamfer tools. Just a thought.
Thanks!
🤔 good job thank you
Thanks for the information.
My pleasure. Also make sure to check for dull blades as they may have actually been the culprit, either way it was an important lesson to maintain all my tools, not just the obvious ones.
You have a lot of mechanical advantage closing a bolt. I imagine that was screwing with your neck tension and giving you a "free crimp"
For sure 😬. That's a great point.
I would have never thought about it my self
I pinned a new comment to help. The lesson is to also make sure to check for dull blades as they may have actually been the culprit, either way it was an important lesson to maintain all my tools, not just the obvious ones.
Moral of the story.....
Do your own "QUALITY CONTROL"
IF you buy some ammo, I do my own quality inspection BEFORE putting it in my expensive gun!
Thanks for the reminder!
I pinned a new comment to help. The lesson is to also make sure to check for dull blades as they may have actually been the culprit, either way it was an important lesson to maintain all my tools, not just the obvious ones.
I have had the same problem and seemed the softer the brass the more likely this would happen. I now turn necks if I trim. Everything feeds flawlessly now. As hard as components are to get these days I don’t mind the extra effort .
My brand new Henderson Precision trimmer does this on 223 cases but not 308.
I use an el cheapo rcbs deburring tool and never had this problem. Goes to show that these fancy reloading gadgets aint all that.
I for one will express my extreme happiness for your experience.
Right, but I wonder how many thousands of cases he trimmed before the trimmer head wore out. I’m guessing a lot.
Good Vid John
Check, recheck and check again when it comes to reloading you will be surprised at what you will catch sometimes.
When this happened to me, I thought my cutter had dulled. Was about to order a replacement, cause it doesn't cut like it should. Guess I need to also check to see if it has moved. Damn cheap sheet- its only 50 years old. lol
Good job! Thanks.
Pin tumbling for too long can do the same thing. It peens the rim and rolls lip inside and outside the neck that causes the neck diameter to be too large for the chamber. Chamfer and deburr fixes it.
Now you have to go back and redo load tests?
very interesting to know as I have the same trimmer..
Totally my fault and NO fault of the trimmer, it's literally been years since I checked that screw so now I know better. It's possible I didn't have it totally tight to begin with when I first set those years back. Who knows, but now I know to keep an eye on it periodically.
The real moral to the story is inspect the case before you load it. I know when you load a lot people like to use the do it all in one process. It does pay to see there are no burrs. I don't think I will ever get into a do all. It is nice to see the case is properly deburred. More power to doing it the old fashioned way, it works every time.
Great stuff, I think I may be facing this very same issue, I’ll take a look for sure! On another topic, how would you feel, John, putting together a video that guides newbies like myself on how to choose a proper f-class open cartridge? I’ve seen plenty of information online, but, much if it is data from 8 to 15 years ago, and it does not take into account all the latest advancements in ballistics, bullets, powders and the like… I think many of us would be thrilled to see your take on this one topic… as always, thanks for the great info!
First, thank you and I pinned a new comment to help. The lesson is to also make sure to check for dull blades as they may have actually been the culprit, either way it was an important lesson to maintain all my tools, not just the obvious ones.
As for the video on closing cartridges I can definitely look at doing something like that. Thank you for the suggestion.
Today I had this same issue using a RCBS Trim Pro 2 manual. I noticed the lip while deburring but I'm new to reloading so I though maybe I just didn't notice it before. I have a factory Savage rifle, I'm guessing the chamber tolerances are greater than what you have so I could close the bolt, although with a little more effort. I had 4 or 5 that didn't extract properly so I'm guessing that's also due to the lip. I'll take a close look at the trimmer head. I've learned a lot following your channel, thank you!
Thank you for the kind words and glad it helped.
@@FClassJohn in my case the cutter head just needed to be cleaned. I had trimmed about 400 cases.
yay, more vids!
Great video,
That's the 1st problem I had when I started...
Love your videos although everytime I see one I wind up buying something. Let's say I buy 5 boxes of brass but plan on using one box initially. The neck thicknesses range from 0.0140 - 0.0150. I then trim all of them down to 0.014". I then decide to use 2 more boxes of the new brass. Their neck thicknesses range from 0.0135 - 0.0145. Do I neck turn the previous turned brass down to 0.0135 or leave them at 0.014"?
I got around this issue by cutting the neck and shoulder off an old 308 case and packing it with fine steel wool after i have trimmed and debured i just give the case mouth a couple of turns in the steel wool, problem solved.
And with the sloppier chamber of a commercial gun you might not have even noticed.
Great content!!!’
Thanks for this info ! Please can you comment on the results from the Giraud trimmer tool vs the 3-1
I always chamfer my cases after trimming
The Giraud does all three at once and in fact that's why I made this video to show that while the Giraud trims, deburrs AND chamfers all at the same time (I don't need a chamfer only tool) you have to make sure you keep an eye out for dull blades and any alignment issues. I'll be making a follow up video to show what this machine does since it appears a number of people aren't familiar with it and its pretty cool and saves time. Thanks for watching.
I would very much enjoy a follow up video stressing how you would correct this when setting up the Giraud@@FClassJohn
So use a little piece of sandpaper on the edge
.....WOW !!!!.....talk about increase in neck tension...!!.....did you notice difference in accuracy...??......
Oh yeah for sure.
Thanks for this update! Please can you comment on the reliably of the Giraud power case trim vs the 3 in 1 tri way trimmer?
+1 for the 15 dollar Lyman deburring tool that's 50 years old.
John. We should I trim? Do I let the brass grow, take a bore scope and judge it that way?
Haven't seen that before.
So the trimmer needed a little calibration so to speak but, I'm trying to work out why the lip would form if the trim length was off by a smidge. The pic of the lip you showed what seemed almost like a swaged ridge. Maybe like the trimmer blade head was full of brass & it was just brass to brass spinning in the trimmer & the blade tips could not make contact.
Looks like you need to clean it more often.........tisk tisk John
Anyhow, thanks again for the vid.
I pinned a new comment to help. The lesson is to also make sure to check for dull blades as they may have actually been the culprit, either way it was an important lesson to maintain all my tools, not just the obvious ones.
@@FClassJohn It's how that trimmer works though. The cases feed in vertically & the swarf would accumulate around the cutting head. I notice you didn't show that so it must have been too disgraceful a sight. LOL
Have always had to chamfer after trimming. Guess the dillon power trim doesnt keep that burr at bay!
I think a sheridan gauge may have caught that.
Machining 101, primary and secondary burrs. Even your chamfer tool can make them.
thats why you should debur your brass
Why wouldn't you use an inside/outside chamfer tool in any regard?
Because the trimmer he has does all of it at the same time. The head dulled. Probably after thousands of rounds.
Hello John I enjoy watching your videos. How do I measure the neck portion of my chamber so that I can gauge how far to trim the brass? I know how to measure coal and cbto. Just the neck length portion of my chamber. Thank you for some great videos!
Where could I find exactly how to adjust the cutting bit? I’ve had this trimmer almost 10 years and I have an issue that is similar. It’s more of a doughnut at the mouth of the case, but I suspect it’s from this issue and 10+ trimmings and reloadings. (6.5 SAUM)
Would a deburring tool be a revelation to you?
I was having similar issues and it was caused by tumbling my brass too long in stainless media, causing the mouth to peen over. Once a bullet was seated, I couldn't close my bolt on a loaded round. I took a small file and ran it perpendicular to the case neck and I could see a raised ring all the way around the very end of the case neck. I had to trim them way back in order to get rid of it.....not fun.
Since you repositioned the cutter, was there a particular way you set it up? Iv'e had to loosen my cutter head before and it took me forever to get it set back so it trimmed uniformly on the outside and inside. Any tips on setting it up?
If you look at my pinned comment above you'll see that after more discussion it may have not been out of setting but in fact just dull so it was mushing the mount instead of trimming or maybe a combo. Not sure because at the time I readjusted it, I also rotated the cutter just for good measure. But yeah, setting it up I loosen the die ring, push down on the brass and lower it until is just fits in the V of the cutter and then make small adjustments after that. You just have to fiddle with it a bit until it's trimming how you want.
Wont the deburer take the lip of?
Normally yes, but my blade was dull and slightly out of adjustment so it was belling/mushing the lip instead.
So I guess you don't have a ron popeil brass trimmer! Them things have that set it an forget it design I heard 😂
This happened to me.
Will a carbide cutter make a difference?
It is carbide and still wore out but it took about 15-20k case trimmings to get there.
Hi, love your channel and thank you for the content you bring. I need some advice and was wondering if you could help. I'm on my 5th firing and I noticed the soot ring around the case necks is not an even round seal. it seals 3/4 around then it spikes up to the top...I've never seen this before. any ideas?
Thank you for the kind words. From my experience, the simple answer is probably the case necks aren't all the same thickness all the way around so it's most likely a case of path of least resistance over time. If not that then possible just the ever so slightest variance in how the chamber was cut causing just a hair more gas to escape in that part. There's possibly some other causes as well but those are the two that come to mind.
@@FClassJohn Thank you.
Every cutting tool has to be sharpened at some point. You don't necessarily have to buy a new head if you have the tools and the expertise to do it properly. Always check your tools if you want to produce quality - lesson learned - good to move on
Ever used a chamfering tool?
Yes and in fact that's why I made this video to show that while the Giraud trims, deburrs AND chamfers all at the same time (I don't need a chamfer only tool) you have to make sure you keep an eye out for dull blades and any alignment issues. I'll be making a follow up video to show what this machine does since it appears a number of people aren't familiar with it and its pretty cool and saves time. Thanks for watching.
@@FClassJohn
You betcha.
New microphone?
Yeah I got a dedicated microphone about two months ago. It made it a lot better for doing the videos.
So I guess your case trimmer blade(S) are not made or capable of being set up to not only trim your brass OAL but to trim the case mouth inside and outside to eliminate those burs you gladly pointed out with those 2 held in hand cases.
You do know the cases even with seated bullets will be smaller in Overall Diameter then the size of the NECK Cut in your Chamber, those burs really should not be an issue, unless your trimmer blades are in fact dull and not sharp, those blades are to cut the brass off of the neck not to just roll it over.
Not chamfering both sides 🤦♂️
what never heard of a deburring tool?
what never heard of the Giraud trimmer?
Moral of the story for me is that your running a reamer with inadequate neck dimensions.
That minor of a burr should not be enough to interfere in the neck.
Not true, I'm running .007" total clearance. The lip is much bigger than you realize and it's hard to show on camera.
@@FClassJohn That mean it’s one hell of a humongous burr.
@@viking9934 yup
I have recently had tight bolt closures. Will check this out for sure.
And like I posted in a pinned comment above make sure you check that the blade isn’t dull either. That can cause a similar problem which I think is what happened to me.
L.E. Wilson