Through the Ages: Chinese and Britons (AoE2)
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- Опубликовано: 4 фев 2023
- Part nine of a mini-series looking back at the changes made to the original civilizations in Age of Kings. The focus this time is on Chinese and Britons.
0:35 Chinese in Age of Kings
2:15 Conquerors Expansion (2000)
3:43 The Forgotten (2013)
4:38 The curious case of the Chinese win rate
6:10 Definitive Edition (2019)
8:45 Britons in Age of Kings
10:35 Conquerors Expansion (2000)
11:15 The Forgotten (2013)
11:48 Definitive Edition (2019)
King of the Desert 4 win rate data: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
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Patreon: / spiritofthelaw
Background music from Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com
Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition 
Игры
several of the designers were pro-British and played British a LOT. The reason we were forced to remove the minimum range on longbowmen was the result of a couple playtests in which melee-armed units got in close on groups of longbowmen and massacred them while they tried to re-position themselves to shoot. The pro-British designers basically went on strike till me and the Sheriff removed the minimum range. We did sneak in some other nerfs on Britons to try to make up for this boost.
What kind of nerfs did you sneak in?
The man, the myth, the legend himself
Goated comment tbh
I saw the "we" and went "huh?"
The man Sandy Petersen HIMSELF commenting? Congrats Spirit, and thank you for the insight.
@@FloosWorld_AoE It's been over two decades. I can't remember all of them. I know we fiddled with price and hit points. But kept them long range.
I'd like to see the Conquerors civs too
Video was released 33 mins ago, how ur comment is 20 hrs ago ?
@@Ahmed_Malrogi.750 pre-release for supporters maybe?
He did mayans and aztec before iirc
@@Ahmed_Malrogi.750 Patreon supporters get early access
Yes plzzzz
*Notes
1) 1:34 The Chu Ko Nu having +0 against buildings isn't actually strange at all. It's been pointed out to me that ALL archers have +0 to make the Saracen team bonus work.
2) 5:40 The graph for 2400+ elo should say 2nd, not 1st. They jump around between #4 and #1 depending on the time frame you look at, but the overall pattern holds in any time period.
the Moment you were talking about the +0 Damage Hidden Bonus I scrolled down, and I found exactly what I assumed I'd find :D
Pin this comment pls.
Same as knights +0 against archers for the persian bonus, I was equally surprised the first time I played around with the genie editor
Where is bengalis Overview
I would love to see Chinese gets revamp like Indians. We know during the AoE2 time fram there are multiple Dynasties that some
co-existed as shown in the Genghis Khan campaign. There is also Ming Dynasty that defeat the Mongols and appear in Korea campaign, and they are famous for gun powder and Navy.
When I said it was a "major screw to have 6 villagers" I meant that it was a colossal advantage to the Chinese. Honest.
ah major screw to the opponents as in
we were always running kind of scared watching the Chinese in Age 2 because the Shang in Age 1 had been so unbalanced at top levels of play. We tried to fix them with the Conquerors and I think partly succeeded.
dude thank you for sharing all these insights!!!
The Britons were my first love when I played aoe2 as a kid, and the Chinese are my wife's favorite civilization to play now! Couldn't ask for a better pairing for this episode.
Your wife’s 2400+?
I used to love Britons, till I encountered the ongers, after that, I've swapped to a more diverse playstyle.
When I had only the demo version of AoK, the fun was to convert as many longbowmans as possible in the William Wallace campaign 🤩 Then with the full version I loved the Chinese castle
@@edwardblom2661 IQ? Probably! ELO? She's cardboard tier lmao
@@gherlwinfireson8582 Holy shit dude, I LOVED the East Asian castle as a kid. I used to call it a "hotel" because it didn't look like any castle I'd ever seen before, and I was always so jealous that I couldn't build one as the Britons... could've just changed civs, of course, but kids are kids.
Don’t forget the Chu Ko Nu’s buff thanks to DE changing how bonus damage works for garrisoned archers. One of the most, if not _the_ most, dangerous garrison unit in the game.
When I play michi, I always tell my teammates to make bombard towers 😆
They almost never do btw 😔
but its historically acurate since chukonus usually used for defensive weapon, when on offensive they prefer a traditional bows
China buying the world and its showing in AoE2
You’re a man of the people SOTL. Too many people focus only on the high level plays/players. Love that you take everyone into account ❤
Which is also why I like AoE II and dislike AoE IV. It offers very little for us casuals and seems like it was made for the few people playing it competitively..
Pretty sure I watch almost every video of yours when it comes out despite not having played AoE 2 for four years and not planning to even remotely get into it.
So in that sense, excellent job being both knowledgable and extremely entertaining
What happened that u lost interest in the game? Or is it some other reason that had to do with life and not related to aoe
Play it!
@@Achilles75 if I can use my own experience, the more I know about the game the better I expect to play, but it also means I get more frustrated by my own mistakes.
It's that weird spot between "I'm not good enough that I can confidently play competitively the way I wanted to but I'm not bad enough to have fun in casual games stomping actual casual players".
Yeah I know that both these cases are caused by my own mentality but between life, other games and the commitment that a complex game like AoE requires, I'd rather just watch it. I do get on and off every few years though so not ruling out playing it again soon
@@Achilles75 I just never was very into it to begin with. Played a couple of rounds with a friend against the AI
@@l.o.b.2433 Huh i see so u have very little knowledge about the game?But u watch Sotl extensively?
Was there ever any doubt we wanted you to continue this series into every expansion in the game? At this point, we are more than fans. We're addicts and we need our SOTL fix NOW!!!
Cannot wait for the conquerors &etc civs, love the series as a commentary /data point on game design.
I played Age 2 back in the early 2000s as a teenager and just came back to it a few years ago in HD and then DE. This video showed me how much influence the community really had on the game over the years. I am glad it´s still going strong and getting better even still.
It may be strange, but to me you are like the Bob Ross of AOE. It's just so much pleasure on hearing your voice 😆
You should then check out his original civ overview for the Mongols.
Ah, that closing clip of the HD longbows being systematically mowed down by the siege onagers while the paladins pile in amongst the maze of fortified walls is like seeing an old friend again that I haven't seen for a very long time! :D
It's really wild looking back at the game when it first came out and realizing just how drastically different the meta was back then, and how much the game needed to be rebalanced again and again to have what we have today
love this series so I´m very happy to hear you´ve started on the next ones!
always great content
Keep the series "Through the Ages" going! really like it! Thanks SotL. Always awesome work!
Yes, would love to see the conquerors! Also the history series is one of my favorites, hope there's another one of those in the near future!
Make a Through The Ages video on the Dravidians. I wanna see how they changed in the decades they’ve been out.
In today's video, I travelled to 2042 to study the game future twenty years and give you an evolution of the Dravidians.
I just rewatched this series, and still thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you for the research and documenting the game’s history
I love this Series, so happy to see this in my Feed today
Interest in the series is had. Please continue.
I really expect the Conquerors civs. I think Koreans deserve a video specially for them considering they had the most broken development cycle in the history of the game.
Yes! Please continue this series.
I think a major and very important change for archer civs was adding the helbadier.
What I (Elo 800) also struggle with Chinese are camels. Somehow they do not work out well. Additionally, Chinese seems to be too open and after teching in to many awesome option, missing ress for units kills me.
Yes, finally the Britons! Please continue the series, Spirit!
Love yours videos and dedication to it!! ❤️
Pls continue the series i love it and it takes me back to being a young kid playing against the AI not really knowing what the hell im doing
Yay, the next episode of my favourite series!
Love this series! Cheers!
I absolutely love these videos and would love to see them through all the civs up to the current expansions even.
Great video as always.
Koreans would be a nice civ to take a look at, their old onagers were insane
I weep about the range nerf every day, siege onagers actually being able to SIEGE castles with like +3 total range is what made it unique... we don't even have any equivalent.
Yaay! Was looking forward to it. Please continue with the Conquerors civs, it's very interesting! (And maybe Forgotten after?)
He already did two of them, the meso-american civs, so I guess he'll continue ^^
Keep going with all the expansions' civs. The content is worth it
Really enjoy this series. Release the Conquerors!
+1 supporter to continue this series
There is no joy like watching maxxed Imperial Age Chu Ko Nu or Longbows rain mass arrows on the enemy town.
You completed Age of kings. I have been waiting for long
I really like the series and would love to see The Conquerors covered in full as well.
I love when you make a lot of videos
Finally! Thank you so much!
Ironically the chu ko nu is a niche weapon in China used by palace boys and women for self defence and rely on poison. Their one shot crossbows are some of the best but underlooked
Its low draw power makes for a self defense or hunting weapon. Militarily speaking, it's effective to a certain degree against very lightly armored targets
@@yamao4938 hunting isn’t really allowed for peasants so it was a niche military weapon for specific senarios or self defence PDW
I would love to more man, don't stop!
A Sunday with a SOTL video upload? Nice
I think I'd say the Chinese also got an interesting indirect change over the years, at least in terms of the styles of civs. For a long time, Chinese were basically the only civ with a very weird opening. Huns were similar, but for low ELO players the house bonus doesn't really impact your skill. But now, there are a bunch of civs with similarly strange starts - Cumans, Gurjaras, Poles are all significantly different, the Meso civs have the huge difference of no stable, etc. So the Chinese went from being the only weird start, to one of a handful.
Keep it coming!!
this is the video like i always want when i was young but never had
_SotL_ videos, gotta love them.
Also, I really wished I could have that outro track as my in-game music for playing AoE.
Please do the conquerors! this was so cool to see the changes over the years! and as someone who grew up on AOE2 I love seeing how the old civs used to be!
Very nice series
Please keep this serries going!
Thank you!
Thank you. These are always super interesting. I know a still image of a black and white print out isn't super dynamic, but the floating tech tree with the gameplay in the background makes me dizzy
Please continue the series ! :D
Have I won a give away?? Where to contact??
@@kristianlykke Nothing, ignore the bot
For the conqurors version, can you go through Koreans with their OG 12 range onagers
Crossbow and arbalest upgrades being more expensive hurts a lot in 1v1s with archer civ vs cav civ ( in low elo ). The meta is FC into knight or FC into boom into knight, and it's so much harder to actually do damage in castle age, where you have to prioritize techs more, and essentially just taking worse fights overall.
go go go you do amazing
Yes, there is interest!
Keep it going.
yes yes please keep the serious going
Kepp it going
wait, Sandy Petersen? The same that designed all the Call of Cthulhu RPG books also was an AoE game designer?
Wild
He did some interviews to another channel regarding his experience with aoe design. Pretty nice to hear him!
He also was involved in Doom 1 and 2 as well as Quake
YAAAAAAAS MORE!!!!!!!!
The longbowmen are in an interesting position as unique unit because in AoK the game was really designed to where unique units are powerhouse units. But the longbow wasn't really the best ranged weapon available individually; they were more like the AK-47's of the medieval world in that they are relatively cheap and easy to make but very reliable, easy to repair and maintain, and close enough in power to more expensive weapons. The drawback (pun intended) is the strength required to use them. Which is why the English forced their civilians to train with bows and outlawed other sports.
So yeah, realistically they should be cheaper to produce and slightly weaker than arbalesters, but with a longer training time.
Longbows were not like Ak47s. The required a lifetime of training to use effectively. They were also made from wood that became rare in England (yew) which made them difficult to make. The advantage of crossbows is you could use them effectively with little training. Sort of like an Ak47, if that helps you.
@@EMCF_ I was comparing them to other bows not crossbows. Crossbowmen being the upgrade to bowmen instead of another unit type is also a bit weird in AOE 2, that throws a wrench in my comparison I suppose.
What I meant is that compared to composite recurve bows, longbows were more reliable and easy repair / restring / keep dry but not easier to use as it requires more strength for roughly the same results.
I didn't know about the wood type becoming rare, I suppose they would have stopped using them eventually when that's an issue.
Britons did not use thumb ring historically
Please do continue
Yes, there is interest! Please make the AoC civs!
As expected, their archer units are still a bane on civs fighting against them. Also a blessing on civs fighting with them.
Some time in DLC the chinese and teutons swapped some of their TC bonuses. Chinese gained the Teuton +5 LoS, while Teutons gained +10 garrison space.
When I was young I would pretty much only play Britons because I was British but also because longbows man
I would love to see this expanded to AoC civs.
I love these videos! It's fun to be reminded of where civs were at when the game came out, and it's really a testament to how well designed the AoK civs were that they haven't really fundamentally changed.
Any chance of bringing the historic analysis an civs and campaigns?
Oi Spirit! Random comment, but I would love to know with how many villagers I should build a house when I am housed, to make sure my TC idle time / Villager idle time balans is the most efficient. I can't find any video's on it, you ever made one?
I used to play a lot Aoe 2 when I was a kid and did it through my teen years but it was 99 version and I had no idea about the expansion! Until HD version came out! XD
7:11 Hey mom I made it to a SotL video! :O
TCs costing only around 125 wood must've been crazy, on maps like black forest they would be unbeatable with this possible boom
Why did you even bother asking if we want more? Go for it! :D
Back in the day Britons were my boys and I still love them!
oy, SOTL, have you got any stats on how much Xbox has increased the number of active players/lobbies/RM games going at one time? I think it would make an interesting video if data can be acquired (also I suspect many Xbox players might migrate to PC in the longer term).
great 🙂
Hi Spirit Of The Law !
I got a question for you
You probably answered to that question in one of your many video but it's pretty hard to find that little information in your ocean of knowledge !
Is there a rule about civilisation bonus for tech, such as for exemple The vietnamese : conscription is free , do i need a castle to get the bonus or do i get it the instant i promote to castle age ?
The real general question is do we need the related building to benefit any civ related tech bonus ?
Sorry for my poor english, i wasn't a good student
Have a good night !
Any civ bonuses that are a tech you get for free apply immediately when you hit the age (you don’t need the building first, but back in the day you did). So yes, vietnamese get free conscription in IMPERIAL age (conscription is an imperial age tech) without needing a castle
Some other examples:
Magyars free attack and Koreans free archer armour upgrades (don’t need blacksmith)
Teutons free Murder Holes and Herbal Medicine (don’t need university or monastery)
Turks free Chemistry (don’t need university)
As a Chinese, I can confirm that once we move to a new area and build a town center we get 3 new people popping out of it. That’s how we became the most populous country.👌
Looks like you can start on the conquerors civs now ;)
First time hearing about a planned minimum range for Longbows!
Didnt the long bowmen get a huge range nerf? I remember as a kid the longbow men having more or same range as trebuchets, but that isnt close to the case anymore
I think this series could go as far as the tail end of HD edition tbh so you could go to Rise of the Rajas and stop there. Though I think at that point you'd have to lump all the new civs in one video to make it worth while.
Can't wait for the Conquerors' civs, especially the Spanish and the Huns
Age of Kings civs revised: Check
The Conquerors civs revised: Aztecs and Mayans
I wonder which civ(s) will be revised in the series if it's continued. Overall, it's still a good work. I liked it very much.
Huns would be a cool one
Do all the civs. Heck even the HD civs have changed since they were introduced
I hope to see you all in another 24-25 years, hope the game's still alive then 🤣
Honestly, I think minimum range on Longbowmen is a pretty good idea, and it would match their historical reality of needing defenses to keep cavalry away in order to be effective.
Longbowmen already are a mediocre UU so there is no need to nerf them more.
@@pax6833 Maybe they could also be given the ability to build palisade walls to compensate?
Hey guys, Spirit of the Time travel here
Finally
I would suggest that Chinese have their resource nerf lessened and that they start with fewer villagers, maybe more like 1 villager to start. But would gain two extra villagers at each age.
This means they are less technically challenging to start with, wouldn't be terrible or OP on nomad, but still maintain the character of the civ.
They could also buff Great Wall tech by reducing stone cost, making it more viable to turtle in castle age. Perhaps the tech could also increase wall building speed.
Definitely do the conquerors civs
When I was a kid, the Chu Ko Nu was generally considered among my peers to be the best unit in the game, and the reason why Chinese was the best civilization. Only the Britons with their Longbowmen were in the same league. Then I discovered the Huns, and proceeded to wipe the floor with the others for one glorious summer with my combined knights and cavalry archers.
Haven't seen that original tech tree in 20 years
I miss those china nomad years. 😢 instant domination and best feeling when randoming into them
When you're that single sub 800 Elo person that doesn't suck playing Chinese.😅