I've been preaching this on War Thunder's forums for years now: If you want more authentic action in terms of tank on tank engagements, then start lobbying for bigger maps and higher average engagement distances.
I wish I'd get more night maps. Also the non night vision tanks that have headlights and spotlights, there should be the option of using their lights too.
In all my time playing War Thunder, I have only experienced 1, and only 1, shattered APFSDS, I wasn't even mad, I was just shocked Edit: Just so you know what it was shattered by, it was an R3, they’re growing more powerful every damn day
Noooo mighty Indian defense industry makes great tonks, very good 70T behemoths with no protection against any kind of modern projectiles. India forevaaaaaaaaa
@@mr.waffentrager4400 this is scientifically proven Arjuns apfsds can go trough any tank that isn’t Arjun at any angle, no armor can save you from Arjuns apfsds round that was giftet from gods
The paper you mentioned refers to the collapse of the modern APFSDS projectile. Didn't you read that the APFSDS assumed on the first page of the thesis is a 'tungsten monoblock long-rod'? It is a contradictory conclusion that projectile collapse does not occur in modern APFSDS. Even the latest modern APFSDS could ricochet or shattered when hit the high hardness RHA. If projectile enter below 86', critical ricochet happens and projectile is shattered, lost it's all penetration. if projectile entering at a very sharp angle,(Over 87') a nomal Ricochet can occur that projectile will preserve it's almost all penetration. but Abrams/K-2/Leopard's UFP is the angle at which the impacted projectile is shattered. If you want to make a claim, at least read the thesis properly before it Do not pretend to be logical without reading the thesis, please read it straight and take a video sneaky idiot REFERENCE 1. W. Lanz , W. Odermatt. PENETRATION LIMITS OF CONVENTIONAL LARGE CALIBER ANTI TANK GUNS/KINETIC ENERGY PROJECTILES, Swiss Federal Armament works, CH-3602 Thun, Switzerland 2. Lee, Woong & Lee, Heon-Joo & Shin, Hyunho. (2002) Ricochet of a tungsten heavy alloy long-rod projectile from deformable steel plates. Journal of Physics D: Applied Physics. 35. 2676. 10. 1088/0022-3727/35/20/331.
Quick conclusion if you didn't manage to follow the video: 1. APFSDS can ricochet or shatter, but still retains a large portion of its penetrating power, mainly from the back half of the penetrator; 2. Old soviet steel APFSDS with/without the small tungsten core probably won't penerate the UFP of M1 Abrams (because the back half is softer steel); 3. Any modern APFSDS hitting the UFP will go through, either by ricochet into the turret ring, or just go straight through the UFP; 4. IRL, the UFP of M1 Abrams is very unlikely to get hit, so that US Army just don't care; 5. Warthunder is a game, don't expect it to be super realistic.
@@aliarham6343 more like in WT you don’t have to take account into dynamic factors such as wind, humidity etc. And also, you don’t have to account for parallax error between the sights and the gun, unless you’re playing Simulator mode.
Gaijin CEO: Quick gentlemen, how do we nerf leo 2a6, 90% win rate is too high employee: make it fight leo 2a6 Gaijin CEO: brilliant! you get a promotion
This is a Russian bias channel that hates America he prays on the death of amerika “red effect” communist propaganda channel gets his information from Rt new channel and speaks with Putin about these topics
Where some countries rely on the Platform for success, we rely on the crews utilization of the platform for success. A tank is useless without a good crew.
That truth is at least as old as the Roman empire. Many tried to copy their legions, but only romans understood how to use them, as they weren`t inherently better than their other contemporaries but relied on an entire system to make them suck seed.
The problem is that when cresting a hill, your effective hull angle is even shallower than the 7-8 degrees and can be almost 1-2 degrees yet the APFSDS still doesn't bounce reliably. Also, the turret ring on the Abrams isn't as big as the game makes it seem to be. That gap IRL is less than an inch thick. The bottom of the turret actually slopes upwards a little to give clearance for the driver's ports/hatch, but that's not the turret ring itself. Also, those deflections are more than an inch so it should deflect upwards into the composite section and be eaten like most of the other tanks do. Even when it does deflect, the Abrams is the only tank at top tier that you can reliably trick shot a non APFSDS round off the top plate and into the turret ring. Or a small caliber APFSDS through the front. You'd get a lot less complaints about this if it weren't for vehicles like the R3 and BMPs that are bouncing a ton of massive sized APFSDS shots than their thin armor should probably be able to. Also, the propensity to shatter increases with the rod length when the diameter doesn't also make the same proportional increases especially with tungsten or depleted uranium. Those alloys are much stiffer and more brittle than steel. The softer metals will tend to deflect and ricochet while the denser, stiffer metals will shatter. They're much more brittle and instead of deflecting like in the images shown for the steel rod tests, will instead explode as the metal itself can't handle that kind of deflection and energy in such a short amount of time.
How a shell would bounce that heavily into the composite? The bottom of the APFSDS would just follow the UFB angle a litte upper until it would hit the turret ring plus, modern APFSDS should probably pen 600mm of armor, maybe it can lose 500mm but still it has 100mm left which a ring shouldnt be able to stop And nobody complains about BMP and others because they can be literally killed by 50 cal so even if you miss, you still can finish them quickly, meanwhile Abrams has extreme protection on the hull and bizarre bottom hull that only do damage to the driver only
@@St.Matthew422 You didn't read anything. IRL, the "turret ring" portion is a little less than an inch and that's not technically the turret ring. The turret and chassis have overlapping sections of raised armor specifically to protect the turret ring itself and to prevent debris from building up in the turret ring and jamming it up. Gaijin current has the turret ring area nearly 4-5 inches in size when it should be around the same size as most other tanks. Deflections consume a massive amount of energy in order to change the direction of the round. This is why modern APFSDS generally tends to shatter IRL instead of deflecting as the tip starts to change and move direction separate the rest of the body of an extremely rigid and brittle depleted uranium rod with a ton of energy. Even if the round doesn't shatter, a massive amount of energy is lost to change that direction even a tiny bit and therefore, the penetration power decreases drastically. Everybody complains about the BMP's magical ability sometimes to bounce modern APFSDS in the game itself. It doesn't matter if it can be killed with .50cal from the sides, it's the fact that it can still bounce modern 120mm APFSDS in-game which should literally be nearly impossible to do when an abrams with similar hull angles in a shallow hull down position with thicker armor wont.
The real solution would be to have Gaijin to make better maps to accommodate how modern tank v tank warfare would be like. Of course this would bring in new issues; ATGMs being a possible one.
@@marceloescobar9096 Im fine with it being in the game... if other nations have anything that is even close to it in terms of performance. Gaijin, leave it like it is now but give the US their SEP, give the soviets their T-90M, give the British whatever new armor package they've come up with today, give Italy their proposed Ariete Mk 2, give the french something idk, give the japanese their type 10, give the sweeds their whatever maybe just give the 122 the slpprj m/95, and give the Chinese a 10.7 MBT
@@dragoneye0979 Thing is it should not be introduced to the game without a counterpart. Remember when they added supersonics? You had the F100D but the MiG-19 was added as wel to counter it, then the T-2 came which had unmatched capabilities and it screwed everyone over.
0:43, That is a Saudi Arabian tank that was detracked by a (missile or IED, I dont remember). The crew abandoned it, and the insurgents set the thing on fire with scraps of flammable material. Theres a video on the whole thing.
You'd think the crew would be the one wrecking the tank instead of the enemy Prevention of capture of intact equipment to hostile forces and shit like that
Gunners don't actually aim for weak spots. They just aim for center mass. Chances are, if a tank really is hit by an dart, there is a high probability of something going wrong
Imagine playing SPAA. 8.0 radar SPAA is reliably effective up to about 2km. Maps only a small handful of maps are longer than 1km. That makes a bubble 2km in radius that's a no-fly zone for most planes below 8.7 (a bubble that's worth noting extends roughly 1km behind enemy lines). Imagine you're not fighting in a vacuum and have a team. Maybe load your expectation that someone is going to cover the sky with a habit of checking what your team is playing between spawns. You see no SPAA? Then you spawn in it. Or spawn a plane that can fight planes and carry some bombs or rockets too. On a longer map, SPAA would actually have to move to the zone it needs to cover rather than just sitting in spawn. That sounds bad but planes would also have to fly further to target, forcing them to carry performance crippling ordinance for longer and the pilot to pay attention to a larger area. Attacking from extreme ranges demands greater accuracy from the pilot, and increases the chance your target will move before your bombs/rockets hit. This game is stupid.
Says it doesn’t shatter, then shows a tank that is sold to our allies and not the one we keep for our selves which has better angles and better armor. Lol shows what someone knows when they have never even driven an American Abrams.
@Leplivo oh, thanks for explain this very complex and high-level joke. I would have never even guessed anything near this masterpiece of a joke, so smart in so many ways.
Yeah and every video that is about another nations tank is literally the same shit, I swear people just keep getting more and more retarded as the years go on. READ A FUCKING BOOK
Abrams UFP = 38,1mm @ 7 degrees designed to defeat tungsten projectiles with a penetration capability around 330mm. But notice that there are secondary plates over the fuel tanks under the UFP.
Rather than complaining about the upper front plate, people should be questioning how modern APFSDS shells are somehow able to pen through a composite screen, 5 trackwheels and ~50mm side armor at 80 degree angle. Now that's the real bullshit
I mean fccking tracks are still holding APFSDS rounds in this game, and you people expect Gaijiblinxki to fix ricochet from abram's driver hatch?! WTF?
THEY NEED TO STOP MAKING RUSSIAN TANKS FAR TOO OVERPOWERED... ITS ALSO THAT OTHER TANKS WHICH ARE EQUIVALENT THEIR ARMOUR DOSENT EVEN WORK WHILST MOST OF RUSSIAN HAVE ERA... WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO FIRE TWICE ... WHICH ITS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE AS RUSSIAN TANKS SEEMS TO HAVE ADVANTAGE IN LOADING TIMES TOO 😑😑😑😑😑
Why are you showing Abrams tanks destroyed from the sides and talking about frontal penetration ? That seems like a propaganda move ? Next time try to be more sophisticated and dont do it that blatantly.
Consider that the Abrams most valuable statistic in WT over a soviet or Russian vehicle is the gun depression, and where you're using it, the plate in question isn't even visible.
You have so many of your “facts” wrong. You show photos of armor breaks on a 113, you show photos of Abrams that were knocked out by IEDs. This has nothing to do with APFDS. Finally you don’t know what kind of armor the Abrams has because it is classified. You are basing your facts on an assumption.
I mean I think they’re talking around eachother; the reason they have different conclusions is because they’re looking at different things. Spookston focuses on the premise of the study, and RedEffect is looking at the study’s implications with modern systems.
I’ve noticed this when playing my 2a6 it goes through that like a hot knife through butter. Kinda bs in my opinion considering I also have the M1A2 myself. Good old gayjin
So that picture of the destroyed Abrams was a strip down version with no depleted uranium armor. Very similar to how all of the T-72 tanks that Iraq had, they were stripped down and they got massacred in the Battle of 73 Eastings
Not to mention an Abrams bounced 3 125mm rounds ranging 1,000, 700, and 400 yards then proceeded to destroy all 3 T-72’s. Personally I don’t think Gijain gives the Abrams enough credit. Only 21 (most were stuck or shot from friendly fire) have been lost in combat with zero deaths
@0:42 Is this a real picture or a photoshopped fire? @1:04 In the '80 it was designed like you say. The whole tank was updated since then. Would the designers omit such a thing? @5:53 Are you sure it's 38mm not something like 50-80? @6:20 What you marked there is not the turret ring. It's an 100mm armored collar designed to protect against what you describing. Which, I think, is not simulated in WT. @8:19 Isn't the turret in WT raised compared to reality so the ring is more exposed?
@@josejaimes-ramos1546 "top secret highest quality armor package" ---- is usually depleted uranium plates or some type of ceramic armour both are very expensive, i think Israel developed it own version that is probably based on US research.
Mans talking about this tank like he knows all the classified info on its armor lmao, also that destroyed abrams is some export model which was tracked and was destroyed to prevent capture, do better. lmfao
@@lardthing7417 I'm sure the barrowed the basic outline for zulfar 3 but then a lot of tanks try to share this outline similar to how Arjun tries to copy leo2
Only experienced 1 shell shatter when an APFSDS round from my GM XM-1 hit part of a T-72AV TURMS from a dumb angle. Ricochets are more often, like that one clip where an R3 T20 bounced a sabot from an M1A2...
Some guys were arguing that the UFP was actually 50.4 mm thick instead of the 38.1 mm modeled in-game, and such that explained why it was so weak against Soviet 125mm HE. How correct is that statement?
@@mamarussellthepie3995 The UFP was never changed regardless of what spec we're talking about. Not for the SEP V1, 2, or export versions even. You have to understand how difficult shooting that UFP is in the first place for them to change it. What needed to be changed was the LFP and that was changed accordingly.
This is the type of video I'm talking about Spookstun is quick to complain about something being not right - but he doesn't add a 10min exposition going into deep detail as to why something needs to be fixed. He just gives us a 5min rant and says it's something he'll talk about in a later video.
Warthunder is indeed a GAME. With highly biased Russian devs who hate all and everything American. It's a tank game, so they must include AMERICAN tanks--not like they wanted to--especially the Abrams which are far superior to Most Russian MBTs. So with the scorn for all things American, what does Gaijin do? Make the Abrams a shit tank at top tier and refused to add SEP V3. but they added T90, Leclerc S2, ZTZ99, T72 b3 and of course the cancerous LEO 2A6. These tanks simply have a field day raping the Abrams. Every critical or kill shot has an animation in the game. Guess what the most popular animation is? Exactly what was discussed here: apfsds ricocheting off the UPPER GLACIS into and thru the turret ring. DEAD. This is a ridiculous constant, making the big Abrams useless. When hit, it's either crippled or blown to shreds. The Leo pens it thru the... Lower Glacis, Upper Glacis, turret ring, Front turret, Front tracks and even the breech block. It's pure suffering at top tier. I once had a Object279 blow thru my Breech block at 1500M!!!! This gsme is just a total farce. USA made to suffer.
Not even the PSO or 2A6 top round can go through the M1A2 turret checks, how bad do you think other tanks nations are? I would vote to give the SEP 1, 2 or 3 and the result would be the same, aim the turret ring or the lower glassis and the SEP's are out. They might even be worst with all the added weight making it less agile The only way i get pen even at knife distance on the M1A2 is if fighting someone i show the ring or turn away the turret making the checks flat🤷♂️
Interesting, but what is the correlation between armor thickness and critical angle/perforation angle? Does it change? Or does it change with the ration between perforator/armor thickness?
No. Modern long rod penetrators either shatter or get stuck if they fail to penetrate, it's a physics issue, the rod have too much energy, it's too hard and too small to hold the tensions of a bouncing without breaking itself apart, and, in fact, steel penetrators are way more likely to bounce because the material is way softer and can deform way easier than a DU rod. If your theory was correct, Germany would have never developed the flat frontal turret armor of the Leopard 2A4 into a double edged glacis in the 2A5 to begin with.
RBMK42 may not shatter on impact but it cant pen the Abrams turrets frontal armor. I have lost so many T72AVs trying to pen Abrams. Chasis is killable. Other variants like IPM1 and XM1 are killable on turret impact. Above does not apply on them.
Well done video sir I get so sick and tired of these RUclips experts acting like they know exactly what happens in real life with whatever weapon system because they read a piece of paper somewhere. Anytime I get one of these Abrams does this, T90 does that videos I cringe. If you really want to know what modern tanks do in combat start googling the real footage and pictures from grozny or the Gulf War and feel free to seek out vets of the conflicts, Because I'll tell you right now in real life in real conditions high-volume fire from a 14.5 will go through a lot more than you think it will, and an Abrams will kill you not because it can bounce but because it will shoot you from further than you even knew to look for it, and nobody on the whole of RUclips will be able to explain to you the electronic suit inside of a modern Western MBT a lot of the stuff is classified systems that can afford a tank crew to independently seek out and eliminate targets on its own at mind-boggling distances.
OHHHHH so now people wanna focus on how poorly the Abrams as been performing.It’s almost as if Abrams players have been saying this since they added the OP 2A6.
That's cool and all, but a live fire test against a K2 upper glacius (which is a copy of the M1) multiple long rod tungsten rounds literally shattered, either on the glacius or turret, and did no damage. There is also blue on blue fire incidents. DU rounds also shattered on the upper glacius or lower turret, unable to penetrate the lower part of the turret. Every live fire incident shows this. The penetrator needs to get a hold of something. If it bends before penetrating, its basically worthless against tanks. Again, every test and blue on blue against the upper glacius has shown this.
I really enjoy my swedish lineup with the 122A and 122b cv90120 etc. getting 6-8kills a game really fun, but that is where the problem is. unless u are swedish the chances are highly unlikely people will take them as their first choice and maybe only more experienced people may take them. Therefore the majority of swedish players are very skilled and that makes the stupidly high repaircosts of 10k sl stock stopping more unexperienced players to play sweden. I mean why in the world is the strv 121 stock repaircost as high as the 2a4 spaded? it is bullcrap.
Yeah definitely true on the downward angle thing with APFSDS. The additional angle from drop will be max like a degree within 10 km. And if someone is shooting APFSDS ammo at you from many tens or even hundreds of km for long ballistic arcs, I suggest you surrender. Anyone who can accurately use APFSDS as basically a ballistic missile is not someone you want to mess with.
Your image at 44 seconds is FALSE and misleading. That Abrams fire was an abandoned tank which the pictured individuals set a camp fire on the drivers seat. JUST AS BAD AS MAINSTREAM MEDIA take my down vote!
People complaining about the major nations having minor unrealistic issues and then you have the mess that is the challenger 2s... The only thing realistic about them is the speed. I even have the Leo 2a6 and the T80s and T72s, but I just want the challenger to be improved.
Thx to open the eyes for any Fanboy who think their tank is broken but call them out and tell them that the Abrams just suck when we speak about everything its below the Turret.
Off topic, but they did fix some stuff. They fixed the hull ammo bug and the A2 commander hatch modeling error. Hope they add hull ammo blowout panel in future.
oh dear lord, someone in the comments mentioned the Arjun and how shit it is (even if it was just jokingly)... Indians suddenly flock in to defend the tank... May god have mercy on this comment list.
I've been preaching this on War Thunder's forums for years now: If you want more authentic action in terms of tank on tank engagements, then start lobbying for bigger maps and higher average engagement distances.
We do
@@halonut96 we dont small maps are more fun sniping is residentsleeper
Plz tell me were i want to play sim on big maps
I wish I'd get more night maps. Also the non night vision tanks that have headlights and spotlights, there should be the option of using their lights too.
@@news_internationale2035 stop
“Since it’s lost all of its momentum it can behave like a less powerful projectile”
*Shows Arjun Shell*
Lol 300 mm penetration
@@isanayashiro2376 that is close to DM43 APFSDS from german Rheinmetall Rh-120 L/44 gun used in Leo 2
Murdered.
Shhh, "The best MBT."
In before a certain someone makes a reaction video regarding the "WAr THuNdEr eXpERt".
WTs armor doesn’t even work like it should across the board anyways so I’m not surprised this doesn’t work either
Stopped playing tanks when i realized that not even sim tankers will get access to the historical rounds
but still, they could add to warthunnderthe addon armor modification like the russian tanks have in warthunder.
Sours for china video with ricochet APFSDS
In all my time playing War Thunder, I have only experienced 1, and only 1, shattered APFSDS, I wasn't even mad, I was just shocked
Edit: Just so you know what it was shattered by, it was an R3, they’re growing more powerful every damn day
Over 1600 metres i found that leopard 1 and all other variants often shatter sabot on their mantlets
Good job wasting your life playing the shittiest game on Earth.
@@lamalien2276 oh yeah man, we already know how bad it is. we play it;-;
@@lamalien2276 oh yeah, we know, but it’s like an abusive relationship, you know it’s bad for you but you just keep coming back
Man can I have your luck please? I need it buahahahah. Doing IPM1 and M1 and have a lot of em right now.
Arjun be like: Tank shatters when hit and the apfsds projectile is completely fine.
Edit: I think I accidentally started a comment war here.
Lmao this is joke right ?
Noooo mighty Indian defense industry makes great tonks, very good 70T behemoths with no protection against any kind of modern projectiles.
India forevaaaaaaaaa
@@mr.waffentrager4400 this is scientifically proven Arjuns apfsds can go trough any tank that isn’t Arjun at any angle, no armor can save you from Arjuns apfsds round that was giftet from gods
except maybe helicopters.any heli csn absorb even vacum 1 fired from armata
@@m1a1abrams3 I mean.
No armore best armore.
in my 8 years of playing WT I have only ever seen 1 APFSDS round shatter and it was on the road wheel of a centurion
I’ve only ever had one shatter on the ufp of a bmp-2
The only shatter I get is a consistent one with the Conqueror's APDS when shooting the Ferdinand's sort of ufp area in the test drive
@@wooptydo6241 and BMP UFP is basically it's front roof angle
Just seen twice. Vickers MBT shattering my Leo's APDS
If you test drive any the Ikv 91 105 (The new swedish vehicle) And shoot the t90s lfp with stock ammo it will shatter close to every single time.
The paper you mentioned refers to the collapse of the modern APFSDS projectile.
Didn't you read that the APFSDS assumed on the first page of the thesis is a 'tungsten monoblock long-rod'?
It is a contradictory conclusion that projectile collapse does not occur in modern APFSDS.
Even the latest modern APFSDS could ricochet or shattered when hit the high hardness RHA.
If projectile enter below 86', critical ricochet happens and projectile is shattered, lost it's all penetration.
if projectile entering at a very sharp angle,(Over 87') a nomal Ricochet can occur that projectile will preserve it's almost all penetration. but Abrams/K-2/Leopard's UFP is the angle at which the impacted projectile is shattered.
If you want to make a claim, at least read the thesis properly before it
Do not pretend to be logical without reading the thesis, please read it straight and take a video sneaky idiot
REFERENCE
1. W. Lanz , W. Odermatt. PENETRATION LIMITS OF CONVENTIONAL LARGE CALIBER ANTI TANK GUNS/KINETIC ENERGY PROJECTILES, Swiss Federal Armament works, CH-3602 Thun, Switzerland
2. Lee, Woong & Lee, Heon-Joo & Shin, Hyunho. (2002) Ricochet of a tungsten heavy alloy long-rod projectile from deformable steel plates. Journal of Physics D: Applied Physics. 35. 2676. 10. 1088/0022-3727/35/20/331.
Quick conclusion if you didn't manage to follow the video:
1. APFSDS can ricochet or shatter, but still retains a large portion of its penetrating power, mainly from the back half of the penetrator;
2. Old soviet steel APFSDS with/without the small tungsten core probably won't penerate the UFP of M1 Abrams (because the back half is softer steel);
3. Any modern APFSDS hitting the UFP will go through, either by ricochet into the turret ring, or just go straight through the UFP;
4. IRL, the UFP of M1 Abrams is very unlikely to get hit, so that US Army just don't care;
5. Warthunder is a game, don't expect it to be super realistic.
I extremely and EXTREMELY agree with u on reason 5 I’d buy you a drink on that one
@@xxpussslayerxx9525 lol true
What do you mean its very unlikely to hit its right under the turret?
@@donaldhysa4836 accuracy of modern tank smoothbore guns is not that good to even hit at small weakspots
@@aliarham6343 more like in WT you don’t have to take account into dynamic factors such as wind, humidity etc. And also, you don’t have to account for parallax error between the sights and the gun, unless you’re playing Simulator mode.
Gaijin CEO: Quick gentlemen, how do we nerf leo 2a6, 90% win rate is too high
employee: make it fight leo 2a6
Gaijin CEO: brilliant! you get a promotion
that logic of gaijin was impeccable not like if 1 2a6 loses the other one won and canceling each other out
Its plausible considering how many countries use the Leo2.
Just wait for Leo2A7V 10.7 BR
or simply add ARJUN
@@DavidC1 that tank would shatter anything because it's best Tonk
Finally, this video needed to be made
This is a Russian bias channel that hates America he prays on the death of amerika “red effect” communist propaganda channel gets his information from Rt new channel and speaks with Putin about these topics
@@rextuller3498 what lol
Yes comrade
@@USSAnimeNCC- you hear me XD
Nothing's gonna change though. Gaijin is shit.
Still waiting for my tank made of solely optics. Thing would be invulnerable.
optics.... the black hole of gaijin penetration spreadsheet calculator.
Where some countries rely on the Platform for success, we rely on the crews utilization of the platform for success. A tank is useless without a good crew.
@⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻ are you implying that hans is not a capable crew member?
That truth is at least as old as the Roman empire. Many tried to copy their legions, but only romans understood how to use them, as they weren`t inherently better than their other contemporaries but relied on an entire system to make them suck seed.
@⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻ what an amazing name you have. Simple yet elegant.
1:59 You couldn't resist showing Arjun ammunition
You never know when Alpha defense is watching, gotta throw in that shade
The problem is that when cresting a hill, your effective hull angle is even shallower than the 7-8 degrees and can be almost 1-2 degrees yet the APFSDS still doesn't bounce reliably. Also, the turret ring on the Abrams isn't as big as the game makes it seem to be. That gap IRL is less than an inch thick. The bottom of the turret actually slopes upwards a little to give clearance for the driver's ports/hatch, but that's not the turret ring itself. Also, those deflections are more than an inch so it should deflect upwards into the composite section and be eaten like most of the other tanks do. Even when it does deflect, the Abrams is the only tank at top tier that you can reliably trick shot a non APFSDS round off the top plate and into the turret ring. Or a small caliber APFSDS through the front.
You'd get a lot less complaints about this if it weren't for vehicles like the R3 and BMPs that are bouncing a ton of massive sized APFSDS shots than their thin armor should probably be able to. Also, the propensity to shatter increases with the rod length when the diameter doesn't also make the same proportional increases especially with tungsten or depleted uranium. Those alloys are much stiffer and more brittle than steel. The softer metals will tend to deflect and ricochet while the denser, stiffer metals will shatter. They're much more brittle and instead of deflecting like in the images shown for the steel rod tests, will instead explode as the metal itself can't handle that kind of deflection and energy in such a short amount of time.
How a shell would bounce that heavily into the composite? The bottom of the APFSDS would just follow the UFB angle a litte upper until it would hit the turret ring plus, modern APFSDS should probably pen 600mm of armor, maybe it can lose 500mm but still it has 100mm left which a ring shouldnt be able to stop
And nobody complains about BMP and others because they can be literally killed by 50 cal so even if you miss, you still can finish them quickly, meanwhile Abrams has extreme protection on the hull and bizarre bottom hull that only do damage to the driver only
@@St.Matthew422 You didn't read anything. IRL, the "turret ring" portion is a little less than an inch and that's not technically the turret ring. The turret and chassis have overlapping sections of raised armor specifically to protect the turret ring itself and to prevent debris from building up in the turret ring and jamming it up. Gaijin current has the turret ring area nearly 4-5 inches in size when it should be around the same size as most other tanks.
Deflections consume a massive amount of energy in order to change the direction of the round. This is why modern APFSDS generally tends to shatter IRL instead of deflecting as the tip starts to change and move direction separate the rest of the body of an extremely rigid and brittle depleted uranium rod with a ton of energy. Even if the round doesn't shatter, a massive amount of energy is lost to change that direction even a tiny bit and therefore, the penetration power decreases drastically.
Everybody complains about the BMP's magical ability sometimes to bounce modern APFSDS in the game itself. It doesn't matter if it can be killed with .50cal from the sides, it's the fact that it can still bounce modern 120mm APFSDS in-game which should literally be nearly impossible to do when an abrams with similar hull angles in a shallow hull down position with thicker armor wont.
Why would you even complain about a thing called "long-rod penetrator"?
The real solution would be to have Gaijin to make better maps to accommodate how modern tank v tank warfare would be like. Of course this would bring in new issues; ATGMs being a possible one.
They added pradesh, a step in the tight direction...?
>Red plays the 2A6
Yeeeees continue to spam that thing so I get my T-90M)))))))))
That thing is pure cancer
@@marceloescobar9096 Im fine with it being in the game... if other nations have anything that is even close to it in terms of performance. Gaijin, leave it like it is now but give the US their SEP, give the soviets their T-90M, give the British whatever new armor package they've come up with today, give Italy their proposed Ariete Mk 2, give the french something idk, give the japanese their type 10, give the sweeds their whatever maybe just give the 122 the slpprj m/95, and give the Chinese a 10.7 MBT
@@dragoneye0979 Thing is it should not be introduced to the game without a counterpart. Remember when they added supersonics? You had the F100D but the MiG-19 was added as wel to counter it, then the T-2 came which had unmatched capabilities and it screwed everyone over.
Yes and spam the T-90M so i get my SEP V1/2
I come out on top by having both
“Reality is often disappointing”
Yes
And yet in reality an M1829A1 aka the Silver Bullet ricocheted off the UFP of an abrams and shattered during a FF incident in the Gulf War.
@@huntforandrew can you send me the article sounds interesting
@@usmc55645 gulflink.health.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabh.htm Look for B Company, 3-66 Armor, Abrams (Bumper # B-22) gulflink.health.mil/du_ii/du_ii_refs/n52en369/7161_039_0000007.htm
0:43, That is a Saudi Arabian tank that was detracked by a (missile or IED, I dont remember). The crew abandoned it, and the insurgents set the thing on fire with scraps of flammable material. Theres a video on the whole thing.
You'd think the crew would be the one wrecking the tank instead of the enemy
Prevention of capture of intact equipment to hostile forces and shit like that
@@fulcrum2951 yeah. Middle east insurgents man.
And? He wasnt saying that the abrams is bad
@@St.Matthew422 And... I was never criticizing anyone, or anything. I was just pointing out where the photo* came from.
edit: photo*
1:44 the wound is still too fresh..... that really hit me in the feelings!
7:09 it's good to see that Ramirez survived mw2 (:
Sgt Foley, i know it's you. Stop hiding.
Under the gun mantlent is exposed after firing big gap for a good gunners
Gunners don't actually aim for weak spots. They just aim for center mass. Chances are, if a tank really is hit by an dart, there is a high probability of something going wrong
How war thunder can fix the upper front plate is by making bigger maps for modern tanks to fight at realistic ranges
Then all the autistic players would screech it takes them longer than 5 seconds to drive into the battle.
But then CAS though. Imagine getting bombed into submission without ever seeing another ground vehicle in most maps
Imagine playing SPAA. 8.0 radar SPAA is reliably effective up to about 2km. Maps only a small handful of maps are longer than 1km. That makes a bubble 2km in radius that's a no-fly zone for most planes below 8.7 (a bubble that's worth noting extends roughly 1km behind enemy lines).
Imagine you're not fighting in a vacuum and have a team. Maybe load your expectation that someone is going to cover the sky with a habit of checking what your team is playing between spawns. You see no SPAA? Then you spawn in it. Or spawn a plane that can fight planes and carry some bombs or rockets too.
On a longer map, SPAA would actually have to move to the zone it needs to cover rather than just sitting in spawn. That sounds bad but planes would also have to fly further to target, forcing them to carry performance crippling ordinance for longer and the pilot to pay attention to a larger area. Attacking from extreme ranges demands greater accuracy from the pilot, and increases the chance your target will move before your bombs/rockets hit.
This game is stupid.
this is rare, war thunder video?!?!?
There is a leopard 2a7 somewhere lmao, have a fight with him.
Says it doesn’t shatter, then shows a tank that is sold to our allies and not the one we keep for our selves which has better angles and better armor. Lol shows what someone knows when they have never even driven an American Abrams.
it was design this way other wise engineers are that stupid? really? I don't think so. War Thunder just suck
I really love the shell terminology “long rod penetrators”
Freeaboos be like:Muh abrams best tonk its impenetrable video bad
Freedom? You must mean Freedom™
I mean it's American. So it must be superior... in fuel consumption.
@Leplivo oh, thanks for explain this very complex and high-level joke.
I would have never even guessed anything near this masterpiece of a joke, so smart in so many ways.
Yeah and every video that is about another nations tank is literally the same shit, I swear people just keep getting more and more retarded as the years go on. READ A FUCKING BOOK
Red Effect is there a source for the China Central Television APFSDS test that you've shown in the video? It's a good video BTW.
Redeffect finally making WT content....yeaaaaaa
Someone already mentioned this in here, and I mentioned this before in a Covert Cabal video, but *goddamn* nationalism is one hell of a drug!
People do it with 2a5 cheeks aswell
Finely a video that mentions warthunder outside the sponsor
Fun fact merkava 600 mm pen round will go directly through crew members/ammo/engine and only make them red on xm1.
that happens to all shells some times. but i have only seen it in the protection calculator
Abrams UFP = 38,1mm @ 7 degrees designed to defeat tungsten projectiles with a penetration capability around 330mm. But notice that there are secondary plates over the fuel tanks under the UFP.
But mr driver have no such luxury below the hatch :/
@@alifio2183 isent there a spall liner?
@@einar8019 nah. Just periscope and hatch. Spall liner are behind the fuel tanks which are on both side of the driver's position.
Rather than complaining about the upper front plate, people should be questioning how modern APFSDS shells are somehow able to pen through a composite screen, 5 trackwheels and ~50mm side armor at 80 degree angle. Now that's the real bullshit
I mean fccking tracks are still holding APFSDS rounds in this game, and you people expect Gaijiblinxki to fix ricochet from abram's driver hatch?! WTF?
A good note, the Abrams used by middle Eastern countries aren't even close to the ones used by the US
THEY NEED TO STOP MAKING RUSSIAN TANKS FAR TOO OVERPOWERED...
ITS ALSO THAT OTHER TANKS WHICH ARE EQUIVALENT THEIR ARMOUR DOSENT EVEN WORK
WHILST MOST OF RUSSIAN HAVE ERA...
WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO FIRE TWICE ... WHICH ITS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE AS RUSSIAN TANKS SEEMS TO HAVE ADVANTAGE IN LOADING TIMES TOO
😑😑😑😑😑
Why are you showing Abrams tanks destroyed from the sides and talking about frontal penetration ? That seems like a propaganda move ? Next time try to be more sophisticated and dont do it that blatantly.
What is bullshit is the fact that for some reason, in game only Russian ERA works and for all other nations their ERA is dead weight. What a joke.
Consider that the Abrams most valuable statistic in WT over a soviet or Russian vehicle is the gun depression, and where you're using it, the plate in question isn't even visible.
You have so many of your “facts” wrong. You show photos of armor breaks on a 113, you show photos of Abrams that were knocked out by IEDs. This has nothing to do with APFDS. Finally you don’t know what kind of armor the Abrams has because it is classified. You are basing your facts on an assumption.
So if it has classified armor how do you know long roads would shater at the contact with it?
What a dumb comment
Ytp be comment, expose examples of negligence, get called out over strawman. . . Lol
Spookston just made a video about you, but he too scared to call you out.
I mean I think they’re talking around eachother; the reason they have different conclusions is because they’re looking at different things. Spookston focuses on the premise of the study, and RedEffect is looking at the study’s implications with modern systems.
I’ve noticed this when playing my 2a6 it goes through that like a hot knife through butter. Kinda bs in my opinion considering I also have the M1A2 myself.
Good old gayjin
So that picture of the destroyed Abrams was a strip down version with no depleted uranium armor. Very similar to how all of the T-72 tanks that Iraq had, they were stripped down and they got massacred in the Battle of 73 Eastings
Not to mention an Abrams bounced 3 125mm rounds ranging 1,000, 700, and 400 yards then proceeded to destroy all 3 T-72’s. Personally I don’t think Gijain gives the Abrams enough credit. Only 21 (most were stuck or shot from friendly fire) have been lost in combat with zero deaths
@@WarInHD I dont know much about tanks but I'd trust the mbt of the strongest military of the world.
''FOR ISRAEL'' - the battle cry of American soldier
@0:42 Is this a real picture or a photoshopped fire?
@1:04 In the '80 it was designed like you say. The whole tank was updated since then. Would the designers omit such a thing?
@5:53 Are you sure it's 38mm not something like 50-80?
@6:20 What you marked there is not the turret ring. It's an 100mm armored collar designed to protect against what you describing. Which, I think, is not simulated in WT.
@8:19 Isn't the turret in WT raised compared to reality so the ring is more exposed?
Right on the money bro.
Its good to see SOMEONE here with a skeptical mind!
Could we get a video on light armored wheeled ifvs such as the LAV-25 and BTR-80/90?
they haven't added the tusk armor witch is so wrong it's perfect to stop the bmp spam
Abrams players are just whiny little brats, their survivability is already above average
Dont know why people in wt want modern combat, like dam I'm craving firing at dots on the horizon
Oh hell yea gimmie dat firing at 2 pixels at 4km away with full aimbots
"reality is far more disappointing" *shows picture of guys who literately had to start a bonfire in the Abrams to destroy it * 😂 🤣
Those RPG arent cheap... that bonefire was cost effective😆
It's was run out gas, I watch those two guys doing rpg. Still the Abraham survived and they just throw inside the tank cockpit drive by a molotov.
@@crusaderclarkplays5466 also it has to be noted that export Abrams models dont have the top secret highest quality armor package.
@@josejaimes-ramos1546 the Saudi variant doesnt
@@josejaimes-ramos1546 "top secret highest quality armor package" ---- is usually depleted uranium plates or some type of ceramic armour both are very expensive, i think Israel developed it own version that is probably based on US research.
Mans talking about this tank like he knows all the classified info on its armor lmao, also that destroyed abrams is some export model which was tracked and was destroyed to prevent capture, do better. lmfao
some random person online with no clue: "Abrams has ufp flaw." Meanwhile Chrysler Defense and GDLS don't even know who this kid is.
roast everything about this unrealistic game
Forgets the sep1- sep.v3 and .v4 packages. Realising that modern Abrams are far more advanced then these displayed.
Softer materials are far less likely to shatter than Harder materials
Fool! Stalininum tipped shells don't shatter!
Wow a youtuber that knows how the abrams armor works.
Zulifar 1-3 isnt an Abrams clone it's based on M60 and cheifton parts with a 125mm gun.
You have to admit though that it looks suspiciously like an abrams
@@lardthing7417 I'm sure the barrowed the basic outline for zulfar 3 but then a lot of tanks try to share this outline similar to how Arjun tries to copy leo2
Only experienced 1 shell shatter when an APFSDS round from my GM XM-1 hit part of a T-72AV TURMS from a dumb angle. Ricochets are more often, like that one clip where an R3 T20 bounced a sabot from an M1A2...
Everyone is arguing what the best tank is.
But deep down, we all know that nothing even comes close to Bob Semple tank.
Ok, but this doesn't mean that older APFSDS shells like those of the leopard 1 and T64 wouldn't shatter
well not the leos shells since theyre made of tungsten but early russian steel apfsds would
Some guys were arguing that the UFP was actually 50.4 mm thick instead of the 38.1 mm modeled in-game, and such that explained why it was so weak against Soviet 125mm HE. How correct is that statement?
Incorrect per official Abrams armor specs
@@xXDeltaTwoZeroXx Lmao as of what, 1982 specs xddddd
@@mamarussellthepie3995 The UFP was never changed regardless of what spec we're talking about. Not for the SEP V1, 2, or export versions even. You have to understand how difficult shooting that UFP is in the first place for them to change it. What needed to be changed was the LFP and that was changed accordingly.
This is the type of video I'm talking about Spookstun is quick to complain about something being not right - but he doesn't add a 10min exposition going into deep detail as to why something needs to be fixed.
He just gives us a 5min rant and says it's something he'll talk about in a later video.
well, Spook is a gay furry.
@@leonardusrakapradayan2253 yikes
2:00 I see what u did there 😏😂
Warthunder is indeed a GAME. With highly biased Russian devs who hate all and everything American. It's a tank game, so they must include AMERICAN tanks--not like they wanted to--especially the Abrams which are far superior to Most Russian MBTs. So with the scorn for all things American, what does Gaijin do? Make the Abrams a shit tank at top tier and refused to add SEP V3. but they added T90, Leclerc S2, ZTZ99, T72 b3 and of course the cancerous LEO 2A6. These tanks simply have a field day raping the Abrams. Every critical or kill shot has an animation in the game. Guess what the most popular animation is? Exactly what was discussed here: apfsds ricocheting off the UPPER GLACIS into and thru the turret ring. DEAD. This is a ridiculous constant, making the big Abrams useless. When hit, it's either crippled or blown to shreds. The Leo pens it thru the... Lower Glacis, Upper Glacis, turret ring, Front turret, Front tracks and even the breech block. It's pure suffering at top tier. I once had a Object279 blow thru my Breech block at 1500M!!!! This gsme is just a total farce. USA made to suffer.
Not even the PSO or 2A6 top round can go through the M1A2 turret checks, how bad do you think other tanks nations are? I would vote to give the SEP 1, 2 or 3 and the result would be the same, aim the turret ring or the lower glassis and the SEP's are out. They might even be worst with all the added weight making it less agile
The only way i get pen even at knife distance on the M1A2 is if fighting someone i show the ring or turn away the turret making the checks flat🤷♂️
@@elchurcho2704 none of this makes sense
Yep ytp du lower glac lmao
not to raise any panic but at 2:26 the flag might get you a channel strike
now just make gameplay video about WT or mayby even GHPC(GunnerHeatPC) and my dream is complet
pls
Interesting, but what is the correlation between armor thickness and critical angle/perforation angle? Does it change? Or does it change with the ration between perforator/armor thickness?
i bet they also think the UFP of the T-26 are meant to shatter APFSDS
Your long rod penetrators aren't long enough for the Abrams, the Abrams is too thiccc
No. Modern long rod penetrators either shatter or get stuck if they fail to penetrate, it's a physics issue, the rod have too much energy, it's too hard and too small to hold the tensions of a bouncing without breaking itself apart, and, in fact, steel penetrators are way more likely to bounce because the material is way softer and can deform way easier than a DU rod. If your theory was correct, Germany would have never developed the flat frontal turret armor of the Leopard 2A4 into a double edged glacis in the 2A5 to begin with.
I don't even play WT that much, but I have often wondered when I do HTH does a machine gun knock out a main gun??
3BM26 Nadezhda should be interesting! I want it!
Gayjin: No you can't
p.s. ты моя надежда........ eh you are my 3BM26? xD
What's the pen values?
RBMK42 may not shatter on impact but it cant pen the Abrams turrets frontal armor. I have lost so many T72AVs trying to pen Abrams.
Chasis is killable. Other variants like IPM1 and XM1 are killable on turret impact. Above does not apply on them.
If Gaijin can't even model WW2 vehicles correctly, why would anyone expect them to get modern ones right?
That upper plate would actually deflect a shot into the turret gap. SO it's a SHOT TRAP.
Well done video sir I get so sick and tired of these RUclips experts acting like they know exactly what happens in real life with whatever weapon system because they read a piece of paper somewhere. Anytime I get one of these Abrams does this, T90 does that videos I cringe. If you really want to know what modern tanks do in combat start googling the real footage and pictures from grozny or the Gulf War and feel free to seek out vets of the conflicts, Because I'll tell you right now in real life in real conditions high-volume fire from a 14.5 will go through a lot more than you think it will, and an Abrams will kill you not because it can bounce but because it will shoot you from further than you even knew to look for it, and nobody on the whole of RUclips will be able to explain to you the electronic suit inside of a modern Western MBT a lot of the stuff is classified systems that can afford a tank crew to independently seek out and eliminate targets on its own at mind-boggling distances.
Who cares about abraham tank??
Gaijin must make ARJUN!
Maybe when you have 3000 sp you can have arjun and game is over and Arjun wins.
OHHHHH so now people wanna focus on how poorly the Abrams as been performing.It’s almost as if Abrams players have been saying this since they added the OP 2A6.
That's cool and all, but a live fire test against a K2 upper glacius (which is a copy of the M1) multiple long rod tungsten rounds literally shattered, either on the glacius or turret, and did no damage. There is also blue on blue fire incidents. DU rounds also shattered on the upper glacius or lower turret, unable to penetrate the lower part of the turret.
Every live fire incident shows this. The penetrator needs to get a hold of something. If it bends before penetrating, its basically worthless against tanks.
Again, every test and blue on blue against the upper glacius has shown this.
I really enjoy my swedish lineup with the 122A and 122b cv90120 etc. getting 6-8kills a game really fun, but that is where the problem is. unless u are swedish the chances are highly unlikely people will take them as their first choice and maybe only more experienced people may take them. Therefore the majority of swedish players are very skilled and that makes the stupidly high repaircosts of 10k sl stock stopping more unexperienced players to play sweden. I mean why in the world is the strv 121 stock repaircost as high as the 2a4 spaded? it is bullcrap.
Yeah definitely true on the downward angle thing with APFSDS. The additional angle from drop will be max like a degree within 10 km. And if someone is shooting APFSDS ammo at you from many tens or even hundreds of km for long ballistic arcs, I suggest you surrender. Anyone who can accurately use APFSDS as basically a ballistic missile is not someone you want to mess with.
Your image at 44 seconds is FALSE and misleading. That Abrams fire was an abandoned tank which the pictured individuals set a camp fire on the drivers seat. JUST AS BAD AS MAINSTREAM MEDIA take my down vote!
This is Gaijin!!!!!!. It's our world, our rule. This world we are God's. We don't care about kids videos. 😂 😂 😁 😂 😂
People complaining about the major nations having minor unrealistic issues and then you have the mess that is the challenger 2s... The only thing realistic about them is the speed. I even have the Leo 2a6 and the T80s and T72s, but I just want the challenger to be improved.
ive seen two shattered, that's it, it was in the game for a week, then got removed
I wouldn't be surprised if Gaijin stops sponsoring Redeffect after this video lol
Thx to open the eyes for any Fanboy who think their tank is broken but call them out and tell them that the Abrams just suck when we speak about everything its below the Turret.
Now u gonna say abram is bad?
Or somehow too good?
I mean everyone still going to aim for the rear thin armor 😂😂😂😂
Off topic, but they did fix some stuff. They fixed the hull ammo bug and the A2 commander hatch modeling error. Hope they add hull ammo blowout panel in future.
Btw if anybody wants context on 0:43. Incompetent Saudi tankers abandoned their Abrams after getting encircled by Houthi soldiers
oh dear lord, someone in the comments mentioned the Arjun and how shit it is (even if it was just jokingly)... Indians suddenly flock in to defend the tank...
May god have mercy on this comment list.
n o
-Gaijin
I'm more annoyed that old steel APFSDS seems to never shatter or have any tumble in WT.
No No War Thunder is not just Tank fight Tank it the other team that have more Air Support Win the Game.
I''ve played war thunder for 3 years and didn't experience a shell shatter till about 5 mouths ago when I shot at a t-90 in a test drive