This is so cool I wish our local broadcasters would try this. We don’t really need 4K but could you imagine if every broadcaster’s sub channels were all in 1080p? Without DRM? That would rock. Almost all sub channels in our region are in 480 and are distractingly poor quality.
This could be another reason people are giving up on OTA. These 480 channels look sub-VHS quality. At least on my 4K tv they do. The funny thing is on my old 53" analog with an early converter box, the picture is clear and beautiful. It has become the only thing I watch OTA on since there isn't a single new network show worth watching.
Alot of the 480 subchannels in my area do not carry any HD content. They are often pre-HD programs. To me they look fine on an HD TV and not like VHS quality at all.
@@ramblinman4197 A lot of older programming has been updated to HD. My local meTV is broadcast in 720P and it looks so much better than 480i channels. With the exception of a few programs, it is far superior. Even those exceptions are slightly better looking. My antenna is able to receive 20 free OTA channels and only 6 are in HD. Of the 14 SD channels in 480i, only 3 look good enough for me to watch on my 4K TV. The other 11 channels I just ignore. Some of them are doing some weird stretching of the aspect ratio before it reaches the set. It looks like ass, and is unacceptable. Two of the three SD channels I do watch in 480i (Bounce and Court TV), are available elsewhere in 720P or 1080i. Shows like MASH, Hogans Heroes, The Waltons, In the Heat of the Night and Perry Mason have been updated to better resolution and look better now, then they did 30-50+ years ago. I'm sure there are several other shows I missed, too. Accepting that 480i is good enough for old shows is just lazy.
Here in Chile, TV channels usually have two signals in its multiplex (e.g. TVN and NTV, Canal 13 and T13 en vivo, Chilevisión and UChile TV, etc.). One national channel has three signals in its multiplex, those being TV+, TV Más Dos and UCV Televisión. Usually, they all air in 1080i and in 16:9. The aforementioned UCV Televisión airs in 720p. Telecanal has 480i and 1080i signals on its multiplex, yet they both air in 4:3. Fortunately, there are no known encrypted Chilean terrestrial channels (and even if I'm wrong, there would most likely be very little encrypted terrestrial channels here).
@cparker63 I'm in agreement that 480i is quite bad. It's comparable to VHS but sub DVD quality. I wish all my sub channels were HD but I only have two that are. 15 out of the 17 sub channels are 480i. 11 out of those 15 are unwatchable and are left out of my channel guide.
This is what happens when the bean counters ARE NOT running the show. Imagine, a video engineer in charge of broadcasting the video signal - what a concept!
We use various AMBE Codecs in Digital Amateur Radio modes. D-Star is from the Japanese Icom Co., which I first used in 2010, then Yaesu System Fusion is C4FM, which is their system for about 10 years, and now more recently is DMR, Digital Mobile Radio, from a Commercial European ETSI standard, which we use Type I and Type II. 😊
hacker news is actually an extremely well known and respected news aggregator. i have no idea why google would not understand that those are legitimate clicks.
Maybe @Louis Rossmann can do a video on your channel, and you could do one on his. I think that it would be a great conversation. Maybe even @FUTO can become involved also. This might be the big push that is needed.
Given the situation, Goog is perversely incentivized to aggressively demonetize channels at every opportunity. Facts be damned. At the same time, miscreants are trying to defraud the platform. Wash rinse repeat.
This is such a revolutionary use of the ATSC1 spectrum that your YT post received WW attention. If a low power TV station out in the boonies (no disrespect intended) could so cleverly leverage a 20 year-old standard to transmit literally state-of-the-Art streaming video content, why couldn’t EVERY TV station group’s Engineering VP pull it off? Lack of imagination and inspiration, I reckon. There is no doubt that COFDM provides a more robust and superior terrestrial transmission format with even greater BW, but it’s amazing that this station could squeeze so much quality into such a small payload. Kudos!
I think the main issue is that broadcasters are worried about losing viewers. When WPIX in NYC switched two subchannels to AVC/MPEG-4, some people with older TVs lost them. I'm not sure how many but it wouldn't surprise me if the number was in the thousands. I get not wanting to leave viewers behind but at some point, people need to be told to get with the times and upgrade their TV or purchase a $30 DTV box that handles AVC. We shouldn't be hanging onto a 30 year old video codec because a cheap old man doesn't want to spend $30 to keep a service they've been getting free for decades.
@@AntennaMan couldn't agree more! Either get an inexpensive conversion box or upgrade your TV. Could even have the broadcasters groups supplement the box cost. And to all manufacturers, upgrade your boxes to codec's to all the newer standards of audio and video. Dolby digital, Atmos, digital theater sound, mpeg 1-4, MPEG a-h, h.264, h.265, etc
@@Warp2090 Agree to disagree on that 4k statement, but I'll take a major step up for the sub channels being boosted from 480i to 720P, 1080i and/or 1080P.
Boycott OTA DRM encrypted ATSC 3.0 NEXTGEN-TV because it is DRM dead. Long live ATSC 1.0 with true no restrictions OTA TV recordlings and no internet needed.
If you want to stop DRM, make sure to contact your elected officials. I see too many comments of people complaining about it but very few if any actually contact their elected officials.
@@AntennaMan The political staff people I have talked to say there is no government free money for DRM encrypted ATSC 3.0 NEXTGEN-TV boxes so this issue is dead.
@@DCDura No, I will not put words in your mouth. Write your concerns about DRM to your elected officials based on personal understanding and facts. Watch my videos about it for inspiration.
@@DCDura get creative and express what you want to see more of and how the FCC and broadcasters could do better to manage spectrum resources in the public interest. You could simply ask your rep to support incentives to encourage a refresh cycle or policies that encourage more low power broadcasters to invent stuff like I have, for example. Copypasta isn't a good means towards these ends.
If somebody does this near me in Florida, I'll get an antenna for my audio/visual set up. Every time I watch one of your videos, I'm tempted to do so and more 4K shows would tip the balance for me. Main issue for me would be educating my wife on how to switch over to the antenna feed. She would complain. LOL
The more I learn about ATSC 3.0 the more it enrages me. NextGenTV already seems dead-on-arrival if everything it promises can be achieved by simply upgrading the existing ATSC 1.0 system.
ATSC 3.0 has some really cool features. It's robustness with interference and mutli-pathing is great and something you can't get with ATSC 1.0. That said it is sad that we won't see any of the network stations trying something like this guy did for fear of losing/angering any of their customers. This is the case even most of their customer could handle an MPEG 4/ATSC 1.0 broadcast.
It all comes down to the fact that TV stations don't really want to give their signals away for free, if it wasn't law they wouldn't broadcast OTA for free, they would sell it, DRM is the first step in forcing us to pay for anything more than basic bottom of the barrel signal, if they broadcast it and make it as week as possible they are essentially making us sign up for some sort of pay TV so they can get retransmission fees
Good video. Ya know Tylor you take a 1 hour TV show used to be around 46 minutes of video now 42 and even more due to taking the endings and beginnings and merging them in with the next show and commercials to get more commercial time. Your guy is smart and did not reinvent the wheel but he did put a tire on the cart for a smoother ride and easier to pull or push. Good on him and thank you for the info. P.S. I have a ATSC 3.0 tuner but do not watch any ATSC 3.0 stations.
Love your stuff Tyler - fascinating subject for like minded nerds. My city Perth (Australia) uses the DVB standard, and we get 53 solid digital services from VHF Channel 6, 7, 8, 11 & 12 coming from 50,000 watt trasnmitters on the range overlooking the flat 40km wide coastal plan. Perth is one of the longest cities in the world stretching over 150kms north to south with the same VHF transmitters adequatlely covering the entire city. As you drive north or south the TV roof antennas just gradually get bigger. Perth never had a cable TV market, and the satellite option was really only a need for country viewers. (There are 7 retransmission sites for the various trouble-spots - I know I live on the harbour and it is a FM radio blackspot)
I've always thought the migration for OTA should have been to 1080p from 720p/1080i first. A move to 1080p should have been quite workable in a much shorter timeline than what we're seeing with ATSC 3.0, and it would have been a plus for sports broadcasting. I get those wanting 4K for everything, but getting OTA networks to implement 4K seems far more difficult than going with 1080p. They also have to deal with a sizable market still utilizing 1080p TVs
@@AntennaMan It would be great if they could go to 1080p for all those subchannels that are now 480i. It'd be a massive improvement in video quality. Main channels going from 720p or 1080i to 1080p would be much less noticeable.
@@jamesheartney9546Problem is that most broadcasters in United States and especially abroad use it as leverage to entice people to use pay TV. MeTV and bounce have started doing this here and the 4 TV network across the pond has been doing it for a few years.
If I were a broadcast engineer in my city, Green Bay, Wisconsin, I'd probably start a viewer-funded independent community TV station on virtual 1 or virtual 37 similar to this using similar tech...
HEVC is a risky bet, but AVC has been pretty common in the past decade. I'd say TVs that can play HD content from USB port are AVC enabled. OK, I live in Brazil and ISDB-Tb requires AVC from the start, but my Samsung plasma from 2010 plays MPEG4 AVC videos from USB port. Since TVs are cheaper in the US, I think practically no one uses a TV more than 10 years old nowadays, so AVC would be a good shift.
We use MPEG4 here in Brazil since the beginning of digital TV broadcast in 2007. It really has a better error handling in fringe areas, the image gets some weird blocks that vanish in a few seconds, when the next key frame is transmitted. So it's very unusual to see image vanishing at all, it only happens in really bad signal area. ISDB-Tb (the digital TV standard developed in Brazil based on Japanese ISDB-T) is also very robust in multipath situations. Since we have a robust MPEG4 based standard, there are no plans to replace it in the near future. And no, there's no DRM support at all in Brazilian broadcasts 😊
Indeed - if one uses AVC in the style of "intra-refresh" - one can essentially distribute the keyframe data among multiple frames over time. Stream recovery then isn't limited to the group of pictures length (or bounded by the next I or IDR frame), but rather becomes part of a continuous frame re-painting process. This changes how the encoder has to work and limits a few other efficiencies that AVC provides, but generally the tradeoff (limiting error propagation in decoded frames) is considered worthwhile. Sadly, intra-refresh still isn't broadly deployed, at least int he markets I monitor. Restated: I'm unaware of any markets which use intra-refresh for AVC.
That must be some high compression. I wonder what particle effects look like. I know they can look pretty terrible on RUclips where videos are highly compressed.
My only knock against putting new codecs on ATSC 1 is that it's missing out on the more durable modulation of ATSC 3. Otherwise this seems like the best way to improve the OTA experience.
The more durable modulation of ATSC 3.0 will come at the price of DRM encryption which gives broadcasters the ability to restrict recordings, require internet access, and even prevent viewers from accessing their channels out of market. I'd rather have the less robust 8VSB modulation on ATSC 1.0 knowing the broadcasts are truly free than risk it with DRM on 3.0.
I'll submit that when configured to operate at roughly the same target SNR (ie. ~15 dB SNR), COFDM and 8VSB (with current state of the art receivers in 2024) yield results that suggest COFDM and outer FEC codes are providing ~5% better fade tolerance. Meaning slightly expanded viewership area, all things being equal (ie. total RMS output power at point of broadcast). Wiegel Broadcasting recently presented a study at the National Television Association covering multi-site testing around metro Chicago, showing as much. If it gets published, we'll be sure to link it. Of course, if COFDM is used to support layer division multiplexing (ie. low-rate primary stream data carried on more robustly coded symbol ensembles), then one can do some clever-er things, including potentially dramatic increases in receivable locations, enabled by modulation & coding rates which support negative SNR. Amongst broadcasters I'm familiar with, they're split into a few camps: a) everything we xmit should be receivable everywhere, at the same quality, all the time b) we should reach as many folks with something (even if substantially lower quality) as possible, and we don't care if some viewers see radically better or worse results, so long as they see anything Either camp will view COFDM capabilities and benefits radically differently. We'll ignore the intricacies and challenges embedded in 'scalable' codecs which b) wants to use - as most broadcasters I've spoken with don't want programs to be limited to a given layer division - meaning some broadcasters want to have something like a 'robust 480' program riding on the lowest data rate layer, and will then transmit refinement (ie. resolution enhancing) codec data on less robustly coded layers. As you might imagine, this inspires an almost cultural split amongst practitioners.
This is very interesting technical stuff! Sooooo broadcasters/industry get/make a simple inexpensive codec converter box for all the old dumb TV's without AVC(H.264) or HEVC(H.265) built-in. Package the converter box with - coaxial 8k/4k/UHD/HD/SD HDMI Component Composite(RCA) Toslink/optical digital audio MPEG2 MPEG3 MPEG4 DolbyD Atmos DTS H.264 H.265. Broadcasters/industry supplement the box cost or offer free boxes for viewers with old TV's that don't want to buy a new tv. This astute man, Anton, SHOULD revolutionize the industry. Or at least get them moving into the 21st century with free OTA, tried and true, ATSC 1.0, without DRM
They are a great company. I've reviewed their Range Xperts XPS-1500 antenna and have recommended it to hundreds of people with my antenna recommendation service.
at one point weren't all NFL games supposed to be broadcast in 4K? Yet I haven't seen one Packers game in 4K even when I had cable. Now that I cut the cord I think the highest resolution they broadcast them is 720p which looks horrible on my 4K TV.
Are you watching on a major channel (a 'X-1') for ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX? All of those in my area (Los Angeles) broadcast in 1080 right now, so that might make a difference (big market, more $$$ to broadcast a better quality signal using a little more spectrum bandwidth). The subchannels (X-2, X-3, X-4 and on) are all lower resolution. It's not football season right now but I'm sure the games are in the same broadcast quality as other programming on the major channels.
Actually I think only two of the four majors in LA broadcast in 1080p. Fox and ? Broadcast in 720p. I think due to the atsc 3.0 transition@@crosslink1493
The last two superbowls have been "broadcast" in 4K AKA upconverted 1080p. We won't see 4K OTA for a very long time. See video below: ruclips.net/video/z6CebBGZ8Xc/видео.html
I wonder if sending different audio codec streams is possible! Imagine bitstreaming EAC3+JOC (Dolby Atmos) from your tvs EARC port! Or even a high bitrate audio stream! DTS-HDMA, or even plain DTS!!! I'm going to have to try some of this out!
Anything that has a MPEG TS PID type descriptor can be transported in a regular MPEG TS - so, AC3 and EAC3 with extensions are just fine - and this is exactly what I'm doing for the NASA, Cine, and World 4K programs on Channel 3 Eugene (EAC3 audio, with optional stuff to embedded object data when it exists in sources). Find a fairly comprehensive table of current standard types here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program-specific_information#Program_and_Elementary_Stream_Descriptor_Tags - and then note the currently allocated elementary stream types defined: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program-specific_information#Elementary_stream_types Putting DTS over a TS would be "fine" - but would use ES type values which normally only appear on BlueRay TSs, not ATSC. This would be fine, though, because in practice the US FCC only cares that the .1 channel be decodable for purposes of station identification on ATSC1 devices.
@antonkapela6784 Thank you for the in depth explanation, Ig you could even do 5.1 PCM and even other codecs, like AAC, OPUS and FLAC. I've muxed those codecs in a .TS before. I would have to figure out the MPEG TS PID type
Just about every tv station group has experimented with using AVC codec to be able to add more channels - the results are very good except their phones light up with angry calls from viewers who have antiquated tv tuners and simply will not upgrade - so, in some cases the extra channels stay up in AVC and eventually the angry calls fade away or not … but converting all of the channels to AVC or HEVC , while totally doable would result in a whole lot of angst that could get $ expensive with lost viewers ratings
> Just about every tv station group has experimented with using AVC codec to be able to add more channels That was my understanding as well, which is why I was kind of surprised by all the words of shock and awe in the video. While I appreciate the coverage to help educate more people on what’s possible (and has been for a long time), the hyperbole was a bit much for me. In previous videos, Tyler has shown he has assorted contacts in the broadcasting industry and if anything he should be well aware of why they’ve chosen certain paths among the many that have existed for decades. A little less hype and a lot more frank talk about the state of OTA stewardship, roadmaps, and vision is what I appreciate.
This is indeed what many operators have experienced. I'll point out that in my case, K03IM-D launched several UHD channels at the outset, which eased the social and viewer backlash substantially. Meaning, if someone said "I can't see it!" - the simple response is "you need an UltraHD capable TV, to watch UltraHD." Once viewed on a suitable UHD-capable system, then the various other 720/1080 AVC programs are likewise visible. Absent UHD programs, a station simply adding AVC to the mix will be hard pressed to inspire such an upgrade, I wager.
@@forumtyish I don't think he's in awe of the technology as much as the innovation to actually implement it in real life, rather than just on paper. Somebody has to be the original innovator and I'm glad that Tyler is celebrating his accomplishment.
@@frommatorav1 As others in this thread have already stated, this is not a first in real life (far from it!). So I'm not sure what your "real life, rather than just on paper" and "original innovator" talk is predicated on. Again, it's good to let more people know about the capabilities of the existing technology. I appreciate what Anton has done and Tyler getting the word out to a wider audience. I could have just done without so much of the hyperbole in Tyler's video and what I see as faux circumspection about why it's not widely implemented in the broadcast industry.
@@forumtyish I live in a small city. There isn't any ATSC 3.0. There are OTA channels being broadcast in 480i that I wish were being done in 1080, instead. Using those codecs would be great but I'm not optimistic. A couple of news channels didn't even upgrade to HD until 2013. The city I moved from had all local networks in HD at least 5 years sooner. Before Tyler aired this the first time, I hadn't heard of that being done for a whole channel, sub channel lineup. I wasn't trying to say it had "never" been done but it seemed like it was just one or two, not like 10 channels on that amount of bandwidth. I think what Anton did is really cool. I use those codecs to shrink movies but didn't know they could be used to broadcast channels.
14 "channels" divided amongst a 19 mbps payload, with a hardware encoder, subtract audio for each one, too. Blech. I'd rather it all be in SD than watch something high-res but filled with compression artifacts. What's even worse is that the non-2160 stuff is AVC. An even worse use of bandwidth.
The ATSC 3 signal reception for me is much better than ATSC 1, but the DRM has me concerned. If they can just do higher quality with better codecs on ATSC 1, then they should. And wow ATSC 1 is only 19.2 mbps? One 6 MHZ 256QAM on cable is 38.8 mbps. He could get even DOUBLE the channels on a cable channel. Make you pissed that Comcast is overcompressing 10 HD feeds they downsample to 720p with MPEG4 to one RF channel. They look like trash. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.
Hey Ty, you wanna know something weird about RUclips TV? They don’t include Discovery Family, but yet they include Discovery Familia, the Spanish version of Discovery Family. Does this make sense to you? This was once the Discovery Kids Channel in the US in case you don’t know.
Update on MeTV toons. Good news: it is confirmed to be coming to my local fox station that Carries MeTV. Bad news: it is replacing laff as a subchannel. I might record it going off the air if I can.
If there are rampant pirate rebroadcasters, which I believe is a pure bullshit lie, if they can profit from it, they'll hack the DRM anyway. Which means the entire experience will be hampered or ruined by DRM for the betterment of no one.
I you can fit 14 programs in one broadcast channel why not have every 4k channel be replicated in lower res MPEG2. That way everyone could get access so no disenfranchised customers while still providing higher quality, more robust video to those with newer receivers.
Good question & idea - the aim of channel 3 (at the moment) is to showcase the next/new stuff, looking forward. Downconversion of 2160 content into something like, say, a sub-megabit 480 or 720 feed is possible with mpeg2, but there's some trouble in doing this: both the WORLD and CINE 4K channels here feature a variety of color spaces, transfer functions, and different color primaries, and all require conversion and tone mapping to "work" within mpeg2, which doesn't support these color spaces. At the moment, I have no technical means for real-time tone mapping. So - it's a sort of anti-incentive, in my view, at the moment (to provide mp2 compatible streams of any UHD programs). I'll also add that with the current lineup, there's actually no remaining bits sufficient to add three more 480's or 720s in mpeg2, at any sort of reasonable quality level. It's (the 19.3 mbit channel) really just that full! We'd need to give up several of the other 720 AVC channels to make room.
@@xxMaNaxx as of this morning, this is all I get from a tuner near Horner Park, for ATSC 3 operators - to be clear, there's no UHD-anything on ATSC 1 nor 3 anywhere around Chicago at the moment: 102.1 WBBM-NG 105.1 WMAQ-NG 106.1 JTVHD 109.1 WGN-NG 132.1 WFLD-NG 166.1 WGBO-NG .. and only JTVHD, WGN-NG, and WG are in the clear, non-DRM. Amusingly, JTVHD is operating on RF channel 6 as a justification to keep a "Franken FM" licensee alive (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_6_radio_stations_in_the_United_States) - JTVHD is a 720p flavor of, you guessed it, jewlry TV. heh.
@@xxMaNaxx It has the capability to get 4k but it's not available yet. Those better codecs are part of ATSC 3.0 but this guy is proving it's possible to use them on ATSC 1.0.
I wish your guest would speak more clearly as when he kept saying what sounded like ABC I believe I saw you had it on the screen that it was AVC not ABC
HEVC enables UHD, and AVC enables more/better 720 and 1080 programs - ie. as Tyler mentions, better codecs - as well as some novel multiplexing and rate control techniques, which I developed for this purpose.
Does any of this become regarded as being pirated? I ask because I would expect anyone who broadcasts TV to need to pay exorbitantly for access and permissions
@@AntennaMan appreciate you responding back. Got new thingy you mentioned for $5 on marketplace. Guy said he did not know what it was. Told him, I did not know either, but that I needed it. Lol
I don't see why networks can't offer main stations on mpeg2 while the subchannels on different video standards. Like, why bother using a broadcast standard compatible with hd when the system cant view 4k content to begin with.
Network are worried about losing viewers who have older TVs that only decode the legacy MPEG2 codec. WPIX in NYC received a ton of complaints after they switched two subchannels to MPEG4.
@@AntennaMan I understand that, I'm talking about channels in 1080 and up, there's no point in making something backwards compatible to a video standard that the equipment can't decode to begin with.
Hi Tyler. I have been watching a couple years now. Im sure you didn’t take the decision lightly, but there are many shitty humans out there. I feel like if you keep telling people where NOT to post, there’s a possibility of some jerk out there going against your wishes. Ala the Streisand effect
I still think 4K is a waste of bandwidth and 480p and 720p work just fine for most content. I don't care if that makes me sound lame and "anti-technology" or whatever the 4K zealots come up with. I still remember when everyone lost their favorite weather station because the broadcaster decided broadcasting stupid sports in 1080i or 1080p was far more important.
here in Morocco the national television company (it's the only one we have + belong to the government) still not capable of using H.265 and we stuck with mpeg4 1080p . no 4k no Dolby 🤦♂️ the only good thing that our 9 Channels can be captured with a simple piece of metal wherever we are in the country.
My thoughts and experience are much the same, really (ie. little practical value beyond 1080 in normal display uses). The "curb appeal" of UHD is, for Channel 3, to prompt folks to refresh their 15+ year old TVs - and enjoying a happy side effect of newer codec support. Meaning, if one buys something that can do UHD, it'll definitely also do 720 and 1080, and also HEVC and AVC.
While the forum clicks weren't truely invalid traffic, it looked suspicious in the RUclips algorithm since it was a ton of clicks from a sever in a foreign country - similar to if I paid a company to artificially increase my views.
@@AntennaMan You would think they would have a list of legit websites. Even if that site was not on it, they should have manually reviewed before responding to you and added it to their ok list. To me this also seems like it can easily be weaponized by competing channels.
They need to have the HEVC and AVC decoders for streaming content. The fact that the sets will also handle broadcast content using the encoders is a happy bonus.
@AntennaMan It's very cool that he's showing NASA in 4k in Oregon but I don't think it will be commonly done for a long time. I'd be happy to be wrong, though.
There IS one big feature of ATSC 3.0 that we don't get from broadcasting with advanced codecs on ATSC 1.0: the more robust reception provided by the use of OFDM transmission instead of 8VSB. The poor multipath rejection of 8VSB is the bane of urban viewers, who are plagued with multiple reflections off buildings and are often unable to put up an outdoor antenna. The right to put up an outdoor TV antenna is legally protected unless you live in a historic district, but that's little help if your apartment has no line of sight path to the transmitter site.
I’m optimistic, but current test data from the chicago market suggests that similar SNR targets (256 qam, 9/15ths rate, about same receiver threshold as 8VSB) yield only moderate gains in fade tolerance. According to a recent presentation at the National Television Association, Wiegel Broadcasting found about 5% of locations tested with an A/B switchover between 8VSB & COFDM at the xmitter to have better Rx margin on COFDM. So, real improvement, but not market-revitalizing. Splitting some programs into layer-division multiplex might be a real winner, especially for urban NLOS: the lower speed end of the modcod options can deliver a few megabits/sec to negative SNR receivers; of course, complexities abound-but at least this is possible. What and how a given broadcaster may do with scalable extensions to codecs like HEVC and/or dedicated programming on layer division multiplex within the COFDM phy remains hazy. I know what I am/will be doing with it, but most operators I know aren’t equipped to really make use of this resource.
Basically it is bc especially Sinclair didn't want to pay for ofdm, so they went to 8vsb which was developed in the 1950s. There was a lot of politics involved with a lot of the decisions being made, and doing it as cheaply as possible was a big one.
This is so cool I wish our local broadcasters would try this. We don’t really need 4K but could you imagine if every broadcaster’s sub channels were all in 1080p? Without DRM? That would rock. Almost all sub channels in our region are in 480 and are distractingly poor quality.
This could be another reason people are giving up on OTA. These 480 channels look sub-VHS quality. At least on my 4K tv they do. The funny thing is on my old 53" analog with an early converter box, the picture is clear and beautiful. It has become the only thing I watch OTA on since there isn't a single new network show worth watching.
Alot of the 480 subchannels in my area do not carry any HD content. They are often pre-HD programs. To me they look fine on an HD TV and not like VHS quality at all.
@@ramblinman4197 A lot of older programming has been updated to HD.
My local meTV is broadcast in 720P and it looks so much better than 480i channels.
With the exception of a few programs, it is far superior. Even those exceptions are slightly better looking.
My antenna is able to receive 20 free OTA channels and only 6 are in HD. Of the 14 SD channels in 480i, only 3 look good enough for me to watch on my 4K TV. The other 11 channels I just ignore. Some of them are doing some weird stretching of the aspect ratio before it reaches the set. It looks like ass, and is unacceptable. Two of the three SD channels I do watch in 480i (Bounce and Court TV), are available elsewhere in 720P or 1080i. Shows like MASH, Hogans Heroes, The Waltons, In the Heat of the Night and Perry Mason have been updated to better resolution and look better now, then they did 30-50+ years ago. I'm sure there are several other shows I missed, too. Accepting that 480i is good enough for old shows is just lazy.
Here in Chile, TV channels usually have two signals in its multiplex (e.g. TVN and NTV, Canal 13 and T13 en vivo, Chilevisión and UChile TV, etc.). One national channel has three signals in its multiplex, those being TV+, TV Más Dos and UCV Televisión.
Usually, they all air in 1080i and in 16:9. The aforementioned UCV Televisión airs in 720p. Telecanal has 480i and 1080i signals on its multiplex, yet they both air in 4:3.
Fortunately, there are no known encrypted Chilean terrestrial channels (and even if I'm wrong, there would most likely be very little encrypted terrestrial channels here).
@cparker63 I'm in agreement that 480i is quite bad. It's comparable to VHS but sub DVD quality. I wish all my sub channels were HD but I only have two that are. 15 out of the 17 sub channels are 480i. 11 out of those 15 are unwatchable and are left out of my channel guide.
Long Live ATSC 1.0, down with DRM,
like Sony tried years ago with Root Kits
on the PC Registry from their CD's. 😮
This is what happens when the bean counters ARE NOT running the show. Imagine, a video engineer in charge of broadcasting the video signal - what a concept!
Yes, what Anton is running on his channels is a heck of a lot more interesting than the cheap reality shows on the major networks.
We had an antenna rotator as a kid. It was fun seeing what stations we could pick up. It is more than cutting the cable. It is fun.
We use various AMBE Codecs in Digital Amateur Radio modes. D-Star is from
the Japanese Icom Co., which I first
used in 2010, then Yaesu System Fusion is C4FM, which is their system
for about 10 years, and now more
recently is DMR, Digital Mobile Radio,
from a Commercial European ETSI
standard, which we use Type I and Type
II. 😊
It's amazing what that station did with
existing video technology 😊
hacker news is actually an extremely well known and respected news aggregator. i have no idea why google would not understand that those are legitimate clicks.
I'm aware it's legitimate but RUclips thinks otherwise and will punish me if too many clicks from the site come in.
@@AntennaMan This feels like something Louis Rossmann should do an episode on. Not sharing a link is certainly not how the internet works.
Maybe @Louis Rossmann can do a video on your channel, and you could do one on his. I think that it would be a great conversation. Maybe even @FUTO can become involved also.
This might be the big push that is needed.
Given the situation, Goog is perversely incentivized to aggressively demonetize channels at every opportunity. Facts be damned. At the same time, miscreants are trying to defraud the platform. Wash rinse repeat.
This is such a revolutionary use of the ATSC1 spectrum that your YT post received WW attention. If a low power TV station out in the boonies (no disrespect intended) could so cleverly leverage a 20 year-old standard to transmit literally state-of-the-Art streaming video content, why couldn’t EVERY TV station group’s Engineering VP pull it off?
Lack of imagination and inspiration, I reckon.
There is no doubt that COFDM provides a more robust and superior terrestrial transmission format with even greater BW, but it’s amazing that this station could squeeze so much quality into such a small payload. Kudos!
Because 4k tv's and 1080p tv's look almost the exact same when viewed at the average distance
I think the main issue is that broadcasters are worried about losing viewers. When WPIX in NYC switched two subchannels to AVC/MPEG-4, some people with older TVs lost them. I'm not sure how many but it wouldn't surprise me if the number was in the thousands. I get not wanting to leave viewers behind but at some point, people need to be told to get with the times and upgrade their TV or purchase a $30 DTV box that handles AVC. We shouldn't be hanging onto a 30 year old video codec because a cheap old man doesn't want to spend $30 to keep a service they've been getting free for decades.
@@AntennaMan couldn't agree more! Either get an inexpensive conversion box or upgrade your TV. Could even have the broadcasters groups supplement the box cost. And to all manufacturers, upgrade your boxes to codec's to all the newer standards of audio and video. Dolby digital, Atmos, digital theater sound, mpeg 1-4, MPEG a-h, h.264, h.265, etc
I’m an old man with an old ATSC1 tv but I use a cheap external tuner because the TV is HORRIBLE at ATSC. So maybe I’d be ok with this switch.
@@Warp2090 Agree to disagree on that 4k statement, but I'll take a major step up for the sub channels being boosted from 480i to 720P, 1080i and/or 1080P.
That's probably my favorite video of yours yet. What a bummer. Can't even go viral without being penalized.
I agree, in a way I was punished for the video going viral in the UK at least in the form of 1,200 clicks on a UK-based forum.
Tyler, glad that you reposted this.. Stay Safe.....
I wish more stations would try this.
Boycott OTA DRM encrypted ATSC 3.0 NEXTGEN-TV because it is DRM dead. Long live ATSC 1.0 with true no restrictions OTA TV recordlings and no internet needed.
If you want to stop DRM, make sure to contact your elected officials. I see too many comments of people complaining about it but very few if any actually contact their elected officials.
@@MichaelTheophilus906 The intern working for them may mention that they got contacted.
@@AntennaMan The political staff people I have talked to say there is no government free money for DRM encrypted ATSC 3.0 NEXTGEN-TV boxes so this issue is dead.
@@DCDura No, I will not put words in your mouth. Write your concerns about DRM to your elected officials based on personal understanding and facts. Watch my videos about it for inspiration.
@@DCDura get creative and express what you want to see more of and how the FCC and broadcasters could do better to manage spectrum resources in the public interest. You could simply ask your rep to support incentives to encourage a refresh cycle or policies that encourage more low power broadcasters to invent stuff like I have, for example. Copypasta isn't a good means towards these ends.
If somebody does this near me in Florida, I'll get an antenna for my audio/visual set up. Every time I watch one of your videos, I'm tempted to do so and more 4K shows would tip the balance for me. Main issue for me would be educating my wife on how to switch over to the antenna feed. She would complain. LOL
The more I learn about ATSC 3.0 the more it enrages me. NextGenTV already seems dead-on-arrival if everything it promises can be achieved by simply upgrading the existing ATSC 1.0 system.
More information on this
ATSC 3.0 has some really cool features. It's robustness with interference and mutli-pathing is great and something you can't get with ATSC 1.0. That said it is sad that we won't see any of the network stations trying something like this guy did for fear of losing/angering any of their customers. This is the case even most of their customer could handle an MPEG 4/ATSC 1.0 broadcast.
It all comes down to the fact that TV stations don't really want to give their signals away for free, if it wasn't law they wouldn't broadcast OTA for free, they would sell it, DRM is the first step in forcing us to pay for anything more than basic bottom of the barrel signal, if they broadcast it and make it as week as possible they are essentially making us sign up for some sort of pay TV so they can get retransmission fees
Good video. Ya know Tylor you take a 1 hour TV show used to be around 46 minutes of video now 42 and even more due to taking the endings and beginnings and merging them in with the next show and commercials to get more commercial time. Your guy is smart and did not reinvent the wheel but he did put a tire on the cart for a smoother ride and easier to pull or push. Good on him and thank you for the info. P.S. I have a ATSC 3.0 tuner but do not watch any ATSC 3.0 stations.
Love your stuff Tyler - fascinating subject for like minded nerds. My city Perth (Australia) uses the DVB standard, and we get 53 solid digital services from VHF Channel 6, 7, 8, 11 & 12 coming from 50,000 watt trasnmitters on the range overlooking the flat 40km wide coastal plan. Perth is one of the longest cities in the world stretching over 150kms north to south with the same VHF transmitters adequatlely covering the entire city. As you drive north or south the TV roof antennas just gradually get bigger. Perth never had a cable TV market, and the satellite option was really only a need for country viewers. (There are 7 retransmission sites for the various trouble-spots - I know I live on the harbour and it is a FM radio blackspot)
This is an important stroy
I've always thought the migration for OTA should have been to 1080p from 720p/1080i first. A move to 1080p should have been quite workable in a much shorter timeline than what we're seeing with ATSC 3.0, and it would have been a plus for sports broadcasting. I get those wanting 4K for everything, but getting OTA networks to implement 4K seems far more difficult than going with 1080p. They also have to deal with a sizable market still utilizing 1080p TVs
I agree that OTA should start transitioning to 1080p rather than 4K.
@@AntennaMan It would be great if they could go to 1080p for all those subchannels that are now 480i. It'd be a massive improvement in video quality. Main channels going from 720p or 1080i to 1080p would be much less noticeable.
@@jamesheartney9546Problem is that most broadcasters in United States and especially abroad use it as leverage to entice people to use pay TV. MeTV and bounce have started doing this here and the 4 TV network across the pond has been doing it for a few years.
If I were a broadcast engineer in my city, Green Bay, Wisconsin, I'd probably start a viewer-funded independent community TV station on virtual 1 or virtual 37 similar to this using similar tech...
HEVC is a risky bet, but AVC has been pretty common in the past decade. I'd say TVs that can play HD content from USB port are AVC enabled. OK, I live in Brazil and ISDB-Tb requires AVC from the start, but my Samsung plasma from 2010 plays MPEG4 AVC videos from USB port. Since TVs are cheaper in the US, I think practically no one uses a TV more than 10 years old nowadays, so AVC would be a good shift.
We use MPEG4 here in Brazil since the beginning of digital TV broadcast in 2007. It really has a better error handling in fringe areas, the image gets some weird blocks that vanish in a few seconds, when the next key frame is transmitted. So it's very unusual to see image vanishing at all, it only happens in really bad signal area. ISDB-Tb (the digital TV standard developed in Brazil based on Japanese ISDB-T) is also very robust in multipath situations. Since we have a robust MPEG4 based standard, there are no plans to replace it in the near future. And no, there's no DRM support at all in Brazilian broadcasts 😊
That's crazy your country has used MPEG4 since 2007. We're just starting to use it in the US but sparingly because some older TVs can't decode it.
Indeed - if one uses AVC in the style of "intra-refresh" - one can essentially distribute the keyframe data among multiple frames over time. Stream recovery then isn't limited to the group of pictures length (or bounded by the next I or IDR frame), but rather becomes part of a continuous frame re-painting process. This changes how the encoder has to work and limits a few other efficiencies that AVC provides, but generally the tradeoff (limiting error propagation in decoded frames) is considered worthwhile. Sadly, intra-refresh still isn't broadly deployed, at least int he markets I monitor. Restated: I'm unaware of any markets which use intra-refresh for AVC.
That must be some high compression. I wonder what particle effects look like. I know they can look pretty terrible on RUclips where videos are highly compressed.
There isn't too much movement on the video feeds either which helps.
Current HD channels would see marginal improvement going to 1080p. But 480i subchannels would see a huge improvement.
They need to make this Nationwide immediately so we can get more channels especially in my area we don't even have rewind TV
Good Lab experiment. ATSC 3.0 is the future. It is not only the ability to view 4k.
My only knock against putting new codecs on ATSC 1 is that it's missing out on the more durable modulation of ATSC 3. Otherwise this seems like the best way to improve the OTA experience.
The more durable modulation of ATSC 3.0 will come at the price of DRM encryption which gives broadcasters the ability to restrict recordings, require internet access, and even prevent viewers from accessing their channels out of market. I'd rather have the less robust 8VSB modulation on ATSC 1.0 knowing the broadcasts are truly free than risk it with DRM on 3.0.
I'll submit that when configured to operate at roughly the same target SNR (ie. ~15 dB SNR), COFDM and 8VSB (with current state of the art receivers in 2024) yield results that suggest COFDM and outer FEC codes are providing ~5% better fade tolerance. Meaning slightly expanded viewership area, all things being equal (ie. total RMS output power at point of broadcast). Wiegel Broadcasting recently presented a study at the National Television Association covering multi-site testing around metro Chicago, showing as much. If it gets published, we'll be sure to link it. Of course, if COFDM is used to support layer division multiplexing (ie. low-rate primary stream data carried on more robustly coded symbol ensembles), then one can do some clever-er things, including potentially dramatic increases in receivable locations, enabled by modulation & coding rates which support negative SNR.
Amongst broadcasters I'm familiar with, they're split into a few camps: a) everything we xmit should be receivable everywhere, at the same quality, all the time b) we should reach as many folks with something (even if substantially lower quality) as possible, and we don't care if some viewers see radically better or worse results, so long as they see anything
Either camp will view COFDM capabilities and benefits radically differently. We'll ignore the intricacies and challenges embedded in 'scalable' codecs which b) wants to use - as most broadcasters I've spoken with don't want programs to be limited to a given layer division - meaning some broadcasters want to have something like a 'robust 480' program riding on the lowest data rate layer, and will then transmit refinement (ie. resolution enhancing) codec data on less robustly coded layers. As you might imagine, this inspires an almost cultural split amongst practitioners.
This is very interesting technical stuff! Sooooo broadcasters/industry get/make a simple inexpensive codec converter box for all the old dumb TV's without AVC(H.264) or HEVC(H.265) built-in. Package the converter box with - coaxial 8k/4k/UHD/HD/SD HDMI Component Composite(RCA) Toslink/optical digital audio MPEG2 MPEG3 MPEG4 DolbyD Atmos DTS H.264 H.265. Broadcasters/industry supplement the box cost or offer free boxes for viewers with old TV's that don't want to buy a new tv. This astute man, Anton, SHOULD revolutionize the industry. Or at least get them moving into the 21st century with free OTA, tried and true, ATSC 1.0, without DRM
I'm a big fan of decoupling the tuner/receiver hardware from the decoding and display hardware - like the HD HomeRun box and similar.
Please don’t start doing the jaw drop face thumbnails antenna man 💔 plz keep kicking it old school and keeping it real
Thanks
I was wondering: where did Anton get all those channels to re-broadcast on his one channel?
He would probably be better to answer that question but I think most of them come from IP-based streams
For some reason, I can no longer get either Comet or Retro TV in Chicago.
Are they content protected?
you can get stream online just in case.
Retro tv is 24.9 in chicago
Retro tv is 66.6 in chicago
AAAAh, you said at the end "be sure to share this video on other like-minded forums." I'd cut that part out.
Finally, some good news. Is this (HEVC) the same as H.265 ?
Yes
Thanks
COOP
...
My man Tyler. Please make the side to side head bob and Bla Bla Bla with every video. It was glorious. ;-)
Anyone who thinks Americans have lost our innovative states of mind, well, "damned be the doubters"❤️
I was surprised that one of your sponsors was TOP NOTCH ANTENNA.
They are a great company. I've reviewed their Range Xperts XPS-1500 antenna and have recommended it to hundreds of people with my antenna recommendation service.
at one point weren't all NFL games supposed to be broadcast in 4K? Yet I haven't seen one Packers game in 4K even when I had cable. Now that I cut the cord I think the highest resolution they broadcast them is 720p which looks horrible on my 4K TV.
Are you watching on a major channel (a 'X-1') for ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX? All of those in my area (Los Angeles) broadcast in 1080 right now, so that might make a difference (big market, more $$$ to broadcast a better quality signal using a little more spectrum bandwidth). The subchannels (X-2, X-3, X-4 and on) are all lower resolution. It's not football season right now but I'm sure the games are in the same broadcast quality as other programming on the major channels.
Actually I think only two of the four majors in LA broadcast in 1080p. Fox and ? Broadcast in 720p. I think due to the atsc 3.0 transition@@crosslink1493
The last two superbowls have been "broadcast" in 4K AKA upconverted 1080p. We won't see 4K OTA for a very long time. See video below: ruclips.net/video/z6CebBGZ8Xc/видео.html
IIRC, Amazon's Thursday Night Football will have a 4K/UHD option.
Once again, this is interesting stuff! (kinda forgot what I commented on the original video)
Thanks for rewatching the video!
I've noticed some 4K OTA channels without 3.0/Next-gen ATSC.
interesting - which channels, call signs, market?
Do u have next gen tv
you guys are talking a language most viewers are unfamiliar with.
Eugene, Oregon, soon to become greater Idaho
It's never too late to learn new jargon ;)
So Cool , I have been hating the idea of converting to 3.0
Now they need to do av1 and h.266 codec with opus sound code.
I wonder if sending different audio codec streams is possible! Imagine bitstreaming EAC3+JOC (Dolby Atmos) from your tvs EARC port! Or even a high bitrate audio stream! DTS-HDMA, or even plain DTS!!! I'm going to have to try some of this out!
Anything that has a MPEG TS PID type descriptor can be transported in a regular MPEG TS - so, AC3 and EAC3 with extensions are just fine - and this is exactly what I'm doing for the NASA, Cine, and World 4K programs on Channel 3 Eugene (EAC3 audio, with optional stuff to embedded object data when it exists in sources).
Find a fairly comprehensive table of current standard types here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program-specific_information#Program_and_Elementary_Stream_Descriptor_Tags - and then note the currently allocated elementary stream types defined: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program-specific_information#Elementary_stream_types
Putting DTS over a TS would be "fine" - but would use ES type values which normally only appear on BlueRay TSs, not ATSC. This would be fine, though, because in practice the US FCC only cares that the .1 channel be decodable for purposes of station identification on ATSC1 devices.
@antonkapela6784 Thank you for the in depth explanation, Ig you could even do 5.1 PCM and even other codecs, like AAC, OPUS and FLAC. I've muxed those codecs in a .TS before. I would have to figure out the MPEG TS PID type
Sucks for your demonetized situation. I do not know why don't watch your videos (sad to say). This stuff is very interesting.
The issue has actually been resolved: ruclips.net/video/F7EPGngExZw/видео.html
I'll give you another view to replace my view of the previous video.
Just about every tv station group has experimented with using AVC codec to be able to add more channels - the results are very good except their phones light up with angry calls from viewers who have antiquated tv tuners and simply will not upgrade - so, in some cases the extra channels stay up in AVC and eventually the angry calls fade away or not … but converting all of the channels to AVC or HEVC , while totally doable would result in a whole lot of angst that could get $ expensive with lost viewers ratings
> Just about every tv station group has experimented with using AVC codec to be able to add more channels
That was my understanding as well, which is why I was kind of surprised by all the words of shock and awe in the video. While I appreciate the coverage to help educate more people on what’s possible (and has been for a long time), the hyperbole was a bit much for me. In previous videos, Tyler has shown he has assorted contacts in the broadcasting industry and if anything he should be well aware of why they’ve chosen certain paths among the many that have existed for decades. A little less hype and a lot more frank talk about the state of OTA stewardship, roadmaps, and vision is what I appreciate.
This is indeed what many operators have experienced. I'll point out that in my case, K03IM-D launched several UHD channels at the outset, which eased the social and viewer backlash substantially. Meaning, if someone said "I can't see it!" - the simple response is "you need an UltraHD capable TV, to watch UltraHD." Once viewed on a suitable UHD-capable system, then the various other 720/1080 AVC programs are likewise visible. Absent UHD programs, a station simply adding AVC to the mix will be hard pressed to inspire such an upgrade, I wager.
@@forumtyish I don't think he's in awe of the technology as much as the innovation to actually implement it in real life, rather than just on paper. Somebody has to be the original innovator and I'm glad that Tyler is celebrating his accomplishment.
@@frommatorav1 As others in this thread have already stated, this is not a first in real life (far from it!). So I'm not sure what your "real life, rather than just on paper" and "original innovator" talk is predicated on. Again, it's good to let more people know about the capabilities of the existing technology. I appreciate what Anton has done and Tyler getting the word out to a wider audience. I could have just done without so much of the hyperbole in Tyler's video and what I see as faux circumspection about why it's not widely implemented in the broadcast industry.
@@forumtyish I live in a small city. There isn't any ATSC 3.0. There are OTA channels being broadcast in 480i that I wish were being done in 1080, instead.
Using those codecs would be great but I'm not optimistic. A couple of news channels didn't even upgrade to HD until 2013. The city I moved from had all local networks in HD at least 5 years sooner.
Before Tyler aired this the first time, I hadn't heard of that being done for a whole channel, sub channel lineup. I wasn't trying to say it had "never" been done but it seemed like it was just one or two, not like 10 channels on that amount of bandwidth. I think what Anton did is really cool. I use those codecs to shrink movies but didn't know they could be used to broadcast channels.
14 "channels" divided amongst a 19 mbps payload, with a hardware encoder, subtract audio for each one, too. Blech. I'd rather it all be in SD than watch something high-res but filled with compression artifacts. What's even worse is that the non-2160 stuff is AVC. An even worse use of bandwidth.
The ATSC 3 signal reception for me is much better than ATSC 1, but the DRM has me concerned. If they can just do higher quality with better codecs on ATSC 1, then they should. And wow ATSC 1 is only 19.2 mbps? One 6 MHZ 256QAM on cable is 38.8 mbps. He could get even DOUBLE the channels on a cable channel. Make you pissed that Comcast is overcompressing 10 HD feeds they downsample to 720p with MPEG4 to one RF channel. They look like trash. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.
I was scanning for Ota channels and they r the same shows like yours saying
You're probably picking it up!
Whats the Best DVR ?
There is no one that's the best. It all depends on what you're looking for and your budget. You can see reviews of various DVRs on my channel.
Hey Ty, you wanna know something weird about RUclips TV? They don’t include Discovery Family, but yet they include Discovery Familia, the Spanish version of Discovery Family. Does this make sense to you? This was once the Discovery Kids Channel in the US in case you don’t know.
Based on his callsign, was he on VHF-low?🤔
Yes, the station featured in this video broadcasts on low VHF channel 3.
@@AntennaMan Wow! There actually may be hope for 6abc Philadelphia! I hope their engineering staff watches this video.
@@Oilzillahoping wont do it; you would have to send a link to this video in an email to your local station staff.
Update on MeTV toons.
Good news: it is confirmed to be coming to my local fox station that Carries MeTV.
Bad news: it is replacing laff as a subchannel. I might record it going off the air if I can.
Very interesting!
Hey Tyler, if you want to watch analog tv again,come to Turkey!
It's actually still in Canada so I might go there in the summer
Don’t they know the standard is now 8k
Antennas still work for some TVs,
Basically all TVs will work with an antenna
@@kensmith5694 "and a converter box"
I finished your sentence FOR you
@@bellytripper-nh8ox Some old ones need the converter box. Some new ones don't.
This is a lot over my head... So he is broadcasting streaming video (yewtewb) over the air through his laptop?
One of the channels he's rebroadcasting a video stream. The other networks he's probably getting by either internet protocol or satellite.
But if you wanted to be a sponsor, the thumbnail would show up on every search.
I maybe misunderstood something but don't understand the need for DRM for OTA TV. Are there really that many pirate rebroadcasters out there?
If there are rampant pirate rebroadcasters, which I believe is a pure bullshit lie, if they can profit from it, they'll hack the DRM anyway. Which means the entire experience will be hampered or ruined by DRM for the betterment of no one.
This Dude is a b0SS, He Just Proved what could be done with what we have...
Like the GameBoy, or BlackBerry
Yes
I you can fit 14 programs in one broadcast channel why not have every 4k channel be replicated in lower res MPEG2. That way everyone could get access so no disenfranchised customers while still providing higher quality, more robust video to those with newer receivers.
Good question & idea - the aim of channel 3 (at the moment) is to showcase the next/new stuff, looking forward. Downconversion of 2160 content into something like, say, a sub-megabit 480 or 720 feed is possible with mpeg2, but there's some trouble in doing this: both the WORLD and CINE 4K channels here feature a variety of color spaces, transfer functions, and different color primaries, and all require conversion and tone mapping to "work" within mpeg2, which doesn't support these color spaces. At the moment, I have no technical means for real-time tone mapping. So - it's a sort of anti-incentive, in my view, at the moment (to provide mp2 compatible streams of any UHD programs).
I'll also add that with the current lineup, there's actually no remaining bits sufficient to add three more 480's or 720s in mpeg2, at any sort of reasonable quality level. It's (the 19.3 mbit channel) really just that full! We'd need to give up several of the other 720 AVC channels to make room.
👍👍
Is Me-TV Toons are going to be launching with OTA Channel and Philo.
Yes. See Video below: ruclips.net/video/Dtpoq5--TrY/видео.html
Can you separate OTA on a Roku TV with internet wi-fi when the internet signal is interrupted?
Yes, an antenna will still work with on a Roku TV if the internet signal is interrupted.
What antenna signal website is that?
Rabbitears.info see video below for instructions on how to use it: ruclips.net/video/NLCyuqM0LLc/видео.html
I dont understand. I am in chicago. So how do check if there is 4k OTA near me .. ?
There is no 4K in Chicago. It's only on the one TV station in Eugene Oregon mentioned in the video.
@@AntennaMan bruh i just picked up the ADTH 3.0 tuner & thought i would get 4k facepalm*
@@xxMaNaxx as of this morning, this is all I get from a tuner near Horner Park, for ATSC 3 operators - to be clear, there's no UHD-anything on ATSC 1 nor 3 anywhere around Chicago at the moment:
102.1 WBBM-NG
105.1 WMAQ-NG
106.1 JTVHD
109.1 WGN-NG
132.1 WFLD-NG
166.1 WGBO-NG
.. and only JTVHD, WGN-NG, and WG are in the clear, non-DRM. Amusingly, JTVHD is operating on RF channel 6 as a justification to keep a "Franken FM" licensee alive (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_6_radio_stations_in_the_United_States) - JTVHD is a 720p flavor of, you guessed it, jewlry TV. heh.
@@xxMaNaxx It has the capability to get 4k but it's not available yet. Those better codecs are part of ATSC 3.0 but this guy is proving it's possible to use them on ATSC 1.0.
I wish your guest would speak more clearly as when he kept saying what sounded like ABC I believe I saw you had it on the screen that it was AVC not ABC
How is that possible on ATSC 1.0?
Better codecs
HEVC enables UHD, and AVC enables more/better 720 and 1080 programs - ie. as Tyler mentions, better codecs - as well as some novel multiplexing and rate control techniques, which I developed for this purpose.
Does any of this become regarded as being pirated? I ask because I would expect anyone who broadcasts TV to need to pay exorbitantly for access and permissions
I'm sure Anton has permission to rebroadcast the networks carried on K03IM-D.
@@AntennaMan I was just wondering about the costs involved
Why is my channel 2.4 (FAVE) saying Audio Only? No picture. I'm upset bc I watched 48 hrs all the time. Ughhh
See video below. You will need to upgrade your TV or purchase an external tuner the decodes MPEG4. ruclips.net/video/VIbLtjxdEHY/видео.html
@@AntennaMan appreciate you responding back. Got new thingy you mentioned for $5 on marketplace. Guy said he did not know what it was. Told him, I did not know either, but that I needed it. Lol
i don't see any of these channels in 5.1 audio - 4K in 2.0 stereo is underwhelming
wonder how we can get am fm or tv in the case of a nuclear war .
Re-watched
I don't see why networks can't offer main stations on mpeg2 while the subchannels on different video standards. Like, why bother using a broadcast standard compatible with hd when the system cant view 4k content to begin with.
Network are worried about losing viewers who have older TVs that only decode the legacy MPEG2 codec. WPIX in NYC received a ton of complaints after they switched two subchannels to MPEG4.
@@AntennaMan I understand that, I'm talking about channels in 1080 and up, there's no point in making something backwards compatible to a video standard that the equipment can't decode to begin with.
Hi Tyler. I have been watching a couple years now. Im sure you didn’t take the decision lightly, but there are many shitty humans out there. I feel like if you keep telling people where NOT to post, there’s a possibility of some jerk out there going against your wishes. Ala the Streisand effect
I still think 4K is a waste of bandwidth and 480p and 720p work just fine for most content. I don't care if that makes me sound lame and "anti-technology" or whatever the 4K zealots come up with. I still remember when everyone lost their favorite weather station because the broadcaster decided broadcasting stupid sports in 1080i or 1080p was far more important.
Because just changing the underlying CODEC makes too much sense. No. Filthy hands gotta muck everything up instead.
Seriously!!!
Sorry if I sounded negative. I praise Anton's work. My negativity was towards ATSC3 and A3SA
here in Morocco the national television company (it's the only one we have + belong to the government) still not capable of using H.265 and we stuck with mpeg4 1080p . no 4k no Dolby 🤦♂️
the only good thing that our 9 Channels can be captured with a simple piece of metal wherever we are in the country.
I watch internet and DVDs, but that is just me.
I don't care about 4K, 1080P looks fine to me. My first HD TV was 1080I and it looked fine. Its always about the $$$$$$.
720P looks fine to me!
My thoughts and experience are much the same, really (ie. little practical value beyond 1080 in normal display uses). The "curb appeal" of UHD is, for Channel 3, to prompt folks to refresh their 15+ year old TVs - and enjoying a happy side effect of newer codec support.
Meaning, if one buys something that can do UHD, it'll definitely also do 720 and 1080, and also HEVC and AVC.
How does more viewing traffic from forum users = invalid traffic??? Makes no sense.
While the forum clicks weren't truely invalid traffic, it looked suspicious in the RUclips algorithm since it was a ton of clicks from a sever in a foreign country - similar to if I paid a company to artificially increase my views.
@@AntennaMan You would think they would have a list of legit websites. Even if that site was not on it, they should have manually reviewed before responding to you and added it to their ok list.
To me this also seems like it can easily be weaponized by competing channels.
ATSC blah blah blah😂 Some of the new ATSC channels are not even in 4K. 1.0 was good enough for OTA.😊
You look so much more sexy with your hair like that! You should keep it like that!
Watching a 2nd time.
does a typical dumb 1080p TV know how to decode HEVC or MP4?
It will most likely decode AVC/MPEG-4 but not HEVC.
#EugeneOR #Eugene #4KTVsignal #Oregon
the is no need for 3.0
They need to have the HEVC and AVC decoders for streaming content. The fact that the sets will also handle broadcast content using the encoders is a happy bonus.
This about MONEY.... when worry about that .. they screw up everything 😮
I get NASA TV 4K on my cable
Wow - what cable operator carries NASA UHD? =
@@antonkapela6784 Breezeline in CT…
4K Does not exist on the antenna and never will
4K adoption will be slow but never is a long time.
4K actually does exist over the air on the exact TV station shown in the video.
@AntennaMan It's very cool that he's showing NASA in 4k in Oregon but I don't think it will be commonly done for a long time. I'd be happy to be wrong, though.
@@AntennaMan There is a reason why I do not like 4K HDR because it can cause headaches
Screw this bring back analog
There IS one big feature of ATSC 3.0 that we don't get from broadcasting with advanced codecs on ATSC 1.0: the more robust reception provided by the use of OFDM transmission instead of 8VSB. The poor multipath rejection of 8VSB is the bane of urban viewers, who are plagued with multiple reflections off buildings and are often unable to put up an outdoor antenna. The right to put up an outdoor TV antenna is legally protected unless you live in a historic district, but that's little help if your apartment has no line of sight path to the transmitter site.
I’m optimistic, but current test data from the chicago market suggests that similar SNR targets (256 qam, 9/15ths rate, about same receiver threshold as 8VSB) yield only moderate gains in fade tolerance. According to a recent presentation at the National Television Association, Wiegel Broadcasting found about 5% of locations tested with an A/B switchover between 8VSB & COFDM at the xmitter to have better Rx margin on COFDM. So, real improvement, but not market-revitalizing.
Splitting some programs into layer-division multiplex might be a real winner, especially for urban NLOS: the lower speed end of the modcod options can deliver a few megabits/sec to negative SNR receivers; of course, complexities abound-but at least this is possible.
What and how a given broadcaster may do with scalable extensions to codecs like HEVC and/or dedicated programming on layer division multiplex within the COFDM phy remains hazy. I know what I am/will be doing with it, but most operators I know aren’t equipped to really make use of this resource.
Basically it is bc especially Sinclair didn't want to pay for ofdm, so they went to 8vsb which was developed in the 1950s. There was a lot of politics involved with a lot of the decisions being made, and doing it as cheaply as possible was a big one.