Is Squall Dead? Exploring The Crazy Final Fantasy VIII Theory
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- Опубликовано: 5 апр 2023
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For many years, many have been intrigued by a theory that suggests that Squall is Dead. It's a very intriguing idea that has endured due to there being a degree of plausibility and even Square Enix themselves have voiced intrigue themselves.
So, please join us as we explore this awesome theory, and if you'd like to find out more, please visit squallsdead.com/
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My biggest argument against this theory is that I don't think squall has the imagination needed to create the rest of the plot.
What plot? /s
.....Whatever.
Uuuf. Killed the thoery right there
It could. I'd think of this state as somewhat dreaming. I don't consider myself especially creative but my dreams are pretty out there.
@@BHFFS I'm sure you could. My comment was written with tongue firmly in cheek. ✌️👍
I think the “squall is dead” theory ties in to the “rinoa is ultamecia” theory. One way to look at it is ultimecia is Rinoa from a timeline where squall did die, and she goes mad trying to bring him back eventually leading her to the time compression plan to find him again. That’s also why her beast is griever, the necklace that squall wears.
Both theories were officially debunked a long time ago
Just because they didnt go that route on the original doesnt mean they cant or wont put it into the remake. Look no further than FF7R to see that they are willing to change the games if it fits with their plans with the game.
There are no timelines ... FFVIII happens in a stable time loop. It always was that way.
@@Cetra29 stable time loop?
Suggesting it just cycles endlessly?
@@Cetra29 thats incorrect and I seriously doubt you know what a "stable time loop" is.
Whether or not the theory is literally true, the flashbacks where Rinoa becomes increasingly distorted at the party is one of the most conceptually intriguing things the series has ever done. It makes you stop and wonder to what extent YOUR perception is built on some delusion or expectation. When someone I know is in front of me, am I seeing them or am I seeing what I want to see? Am I erasing them by replacing them with my delusions? Are my perceptions so distorted as to be that of a dream world, and nothing more?
Most importantly, how can I make sure I'm actually living my life with presence and compassion for those around me?
Where do you get your weed?
+1
> how can I make sure I'm actually living my life with presence and compassion for those around me?
Being vegan is a good start.
Memories can be manipulated and all the SeeDs needed someone to motivate them. Who can say? GFs be like that sometimes lol
It's not true
I love the blending of CG into gameplay in PS1 era Final Fantasy. The bit that stands out to me the most is always the sewer bit where your walking though and then suddenly the camera pans up in a video. It's so impressive. The Opening bit in Parasite Eve 2 is super impressive too.
I also miss pre rendered background ahah.
i think what makes those moments more memorable is that, pre-rendered background don't usually move and even more so to suddenly move the camera near-seamlessly from gameplay
one moment you're playing the game, then suddenly the camera just moves to another thing transitioning to a cutscene when not only it is unexpected in a game using pre-rendered backgrounds, but you maintain a little control of your character(s) until they're out of frame
although these seamless cutscenes exist today, they often look and feel the same as gameplay visually and feels more like the game taking control away from the player
while ff8 manages to shift the player's attention from gameplay to cutscene without instantly disabling character controls
it also helps that it doesn't happen too often and the cutscene that plays during these moments often are a spectacle that gravitates attention to itself
That opening scene in Parasite Eve 2 killed many wheezing old first gen PS1s, it was the first time I had to put mine on its side.
Absolutely! In fact, it confuses and depresses me that going forward, Final Fantasy seemed to pretty much abandon gameplay over FMV. I find the pattern of "gameplay - watch FMV - gameplay - watch FMV" much less narratively engaging.
I'll never forget reading this theory and seeing Squall's black hole face for the first time while I was alone in my basement, late at night. My stomach dropped and I was utterly disturbed in that moment 🕳
In your basement.
Who plays video games in the basement.
Your family must hate you.
Or you were too poor for the above ground rooms rent.
It’s okay. Just don’t think about Squall watching you sleep from the dark corner late at night with his black hole face.
I always thought he was just dong his impression of Gyarados there.
i could not sleep and had nightmares for a month..... now when i see it i can deal with it better but its still very unsettling. its a image that represents you losing everything that made you, you in the first place and all that is left is a hole filled with nothing. you have no face since you are not you any more.
Ben drowned
I'm always amazed at how much we look into it now. When I played this in 1999 as a kid, I automatically assumed that Edea healed him after knocking him out at the end of disc 1. It seemed like a very villain thing to do to the hero, especially if they wanted to question him.
I mean thats what a logical person with a brain would do 😊
And then there are brainless people that came up with these theories
@@angel1buffy It's not brainless. The theory is quite complex and interesting, even if there are facts that prove it wrong. You need a very deep and creative mind to conceive such a theory.
@@carlossebastian7071 If you have played ANY Final Fantasy game, you would realize almost all the points brought up exist in every Final Fantasy game.
1- Protagonist becoming center of the story (pretty much most movies, games, for god sake any story has that element)
2- There is increased fantasy?!?!?!?!? Its called FINAL FANTASY!! Did you even read the title buddy
I could go own about the other things but meh
The only thing that makes sense to wonder about is the no mark on Squalls body, which is logically and easily can be attributed to Ultimicia healing him
@@angel1buffy Still an interesting theory... and not brainless... Even the "true" plot has some inconsistencies too, so nothing is perfect. As Squall would say: whatever...
@@carlossebastian7071 I spoke to the guy who came up with this theory before it was fleshed out further (or at least he was the one who posted it on every FF forum he was a part of ). Its hilarious to see your description considering the guy was an abusive nutjob.
To me, all the fantastical elements introduced from Disc 2 onward showed the point that the world is much bigger than just Balamb Garden. That point was part of why Cid and Edea started the SeeD program in the first place.
Agreed. It's Final Fantasy, a game series that has seen the Moon turn out to be a spaceship piloted by space bunnies. Fantastical elements are kinda bread and butter for FF games lol
The issue that created this theory though is that none of this is referenced in Disc 1, at all. And you see a substantial part of the world during that segment of the game, as well as characters that know about those parts of the world and are actively involved in them. Yet nobody mentions any of it until Disc 2. Plus you also have the issue of many plot points happening and then never being mentioned again afterward.
@@SBaby why does that need to be introduced in Disc 1. Disc 1 is just your 1st mission lol. Why would they explain all that to some new students being mercs lol. They arent the leaders of the Garden yet. They dont need to know anything besides their orders.
@@Lowlf Because Disc 1 is the world building part of the game, while the other three are the execution of the storyline. Or to be more to the point, Disc 1 is the birth of the hero, while Discs 2-4 are the life of the hero. There should at least be information about these weird things somewhere in Disc 1, since these elements are commonplace in the world. I'm not saying the theory is right. I'm just saying that this is why the theory was created in the first place.
@@SBaby I would agree that such a structure is normal and logical. However, I wonder if that wasn't subverted here on purpose. You start with a much narrower focus on the world, and it isn't until they fail and regroup that they come into contact with the larger and stranger concepts of their world.
Whenever people mention the scene at the assassination I think about all of the ludicrous attacks that would be orders of magnitude more fatal that don't kill anyone in the game.
SUPERWORLDDESTROYINGEXPLOTION!!!!
2 damage.
but that's a totally valid point. its also a game, if everything had to make "sense" then the game wouldn't be there in the first place.
Lol you're so right. Squall literally Limit Breaks his sword to be as tall as space and then drops it on fools and people want to dissect a spear of ice hitting him. It's just cool fantasy stuff. That's why FF8 was the best!
I feel this whenever someone dies in a cutscenes. Like can't y'all just use a phoenix down on them?
@@jfairhurst7688 I feel like phoenix downs, just brings a unconcious person back to his senses, and preventing lifeforce from leaking out, assuming they still have life force within them. basically it just wakes "dead" characters, and prevents life force from leaking out the person, hence why they get revive with low Hp when they res. The injury and pain is still there, It's just that they're back concious and their life isnt leaking out. And maybe a person needs a certain amount of Life force, to stay kicking and running, hence why dying characters kinda just dies without people ever thinking of using Phoenix down and Life spells. It's maybe the reason why even with spells like "Life" existing. It doesn't mean everyone is immortal.
The distortion at the end was that he was getting lost in time and his views or memories were being destroyed. Rinoa used her own magic to find him and anchor him. It was a shoulder injury and I thought the sorceress helped heal him to do more torture as there was some awareness from Ultimacea and she had future skills to heal or restore him.
“No, that is not true,” Kitase said, laughing. “I think he was actually stabbed around the shoulder area, so he was not dead. But that is a very interesting idea, so if we ever do make a remake of Final Fantasy VIII, I might go along with that story in mind.”
Of course why one of the creators would say that the hero died, wiping out the character in other titles and decreasing the value of the Of course why one of the creators would say that the hero died, wiping out the character in other titles and decreasing the value of his product. 👍👍👍
@@profanosoberbo991 not about value. About the narrative
I’ve always had a… contentious relationship with this theory.
Like, it assumes that a lot of the more fantastical moments, the flashback dreams, the Brother in the temple, and other little moments, don’t happen and that disk 2 onward is only when the game gets magical.
And the area of the injury is near his right should, an area not exactly fatal, even with the Axillary artery nearby.
It’s always felt like a theory for people that don’t like the base narrative and wanted something that would make it more “interesting”.
Nothing against anyone that likes it, but it’s always smacked of Headcanon that’s taken on a life of its own.
for me it has always been a stupid theory, fun to think about? sure, but still baseless , totally.
Balamb garden being a school that huge, with 20 students, supported by who? if balamb is the only place in that island lol.
Also not fantasy before disk 2? You literally go into a cave to fight ifrit who shot a huge meteor into your face, but a small ice shard would kill squall, just cause.
Also why would squall even dream about "being laguna" and dreaming his next few monts/years whatever its needed to finish the game in the story line.. Its just an absurd theory.
I love this theory. But.
I played the Japanese version when it came out (I was a huge weeb before it became a thing) and they flesh out the idea of "time compression" a little more.
About how time compression strips you of your memories one by one until you can't even remember who you are.
This is what's happening in the end fmv.
We're seeing it take place from two perspectives, Rinoa and Squall. They're trying to find the field of flowers to meet up, but the memories are slipping away.
The dissolving dance scene is they're most potent memory (everybody remembers the first time they met the the person they love)
That's why it replays, but even this starts to fade until we are left with faceless Squall ( he's forgotten even who he is)and it's Rinoa who finds him.
But I really like the Squall is dead theory, I just think it lessens an actually extremely albeit confusing, intertwined hereditary narrative.
Its my favourite game of all time (closely followed by mgs4 "which I think is the greatest game ever made")
As I've gotten older I've come to love and understand it more.
Imo it's the most realistic portrait of actual humans in any ff game (Yes even Selphies singing on the train).
Source?
@@-my4skinwastakeninasickjew426 Source is me. And a little alleywayjack.
@@-my4skinwastakeninasickjew426 the game. Its literally in the game. Laguna even flatout tells you to latch on to your friends and remember, before you go to the final castle in the game. Its just very easily glossed over but he does hint at it.
Playing final fantasy 4, 6, and 7 before this I never believed squall dying just because he got and ice shard in the shoulder considering people in the other 3 games before got blown up, jumped off a cliff or stabbed in the stomach then lifted off the ground then survived I didn't believe squall died from that
If Cid can survive blowing up a bomb in his hands while jumping off an airship in an explosion large enough of seal off the underworld, then squall can survive some baby ice magic.
@@qxz9p lol yea I said the same thing
There's also a fact that it was officially denounced a long time ago. Squall did not die in that story.
@DMac yea but I was saying before kinase denied it. I remember hearing about squall is dead in mid to late 2000s and I never believed it just like the link is dead in majora. It never made sense
@@mario_maniac9368 yeah I first played it in September of 99 right after it came out in the US. And Squall dying never crossed my mind. I clearly saw him get stabbed in the shoulder in a world full of magic and advanced technology. What got me is having to fight that battle so many times because it was my first multi-disc game and I would hit the reset button on the PlayStation as soon as I lost the fight before the insert disc 2 screen came up..... I mean how was I supposed to know I was supposed to lose the fight?
I think projared put it best, "Yall pretend as if weird shit didnt happen before"
I would love them just to do a remake updated version of final fantasy 8. It's definitely my favorite one from all of them. It just hits me the most for my childhood,
Me too, hopefully they fix the position of the float Edea is on, when reflecting the bullet from Irvine.
@@xavierninetwofourfiveone6901 very specific, she cast "shell" & hopefully they position it where it deflects right into Zell's face tat.
Same here 🥹
@@damienhansen7553 yes, but if you pay close attention, Edea is facing away from Irvine. Irvine is shooting towards the back of the float. How did the float do a 360 in a cage? Also 🤣 at that last part.
Imean ok 7 is more popular but I always felt like I e 8 needed it more
If I remember correctly, at the start of disc 2, you are told by your party members that Edea healed you to interrogate you about SeeD.
What a coincidence that you guys posted a FFVIII related video today! I was at Kawaii Kon last weekend in Honolulu in my Rinoa cosplay! I even did a Squall & Rinoa photoshoot with my friend who flew in from another island at the convention.
can i see it ?
For me the bigger question is, in a world where vials of liquid that can restore any injury and feathers that can bring people back from the dead are sold in every general shop for half the price of a pet magazine, why was Squall only treated with a bandage even though it would leave him with a huge scar on his face?
They can be bought, scars are earned
because plot armor xD
Because that is only gameplay if people can actually bring them back from the dead, imagine how messed up and freaky it is, people would use it all the time
They don't bring people back from the dead, it revives them from a fainted state and when everyone is knocked out with no way of being healed then they die.
I'll be honest I never thought the Squall is dead theory worked. However if they do decide to Remake 8 in the future. I honestly think they should explore the Rinoa=Ultimecia pathway, I think it would make the story alot more interesting than it already is.
This one I can agree with, I hated the squall is dead theory, but the rinoa=ultimecia one I loved
I agree with this 1000000000%, the R=U theory makes so much sense, they should have used it as the story. Til this day, i'm still confused with the story haha
If they do the remake like they're doing the FFVII Remake games, they could set it in an alternate timeline, and given what little we do have of a plot in this game, they would have an explanation for why it's in an alternate timeline (spacetime compression is a fickle mistress). And then with the whole thing of Rinoa=Ultimecia, they could make that happen.
it could also be used to excuse the ridiculous orphanage reveal. like what it Rinoamecia was messing with time to have all the friends she met in one place and nobody remembers the change in the timeline not because the GF's erased their memories but instead kept their memories of the original timeline intact.
It would render the entire story pointless.
I always figured that we were playing the final loop of things going through Squall's mind at the end. The game starts with the promise made just before they enter the messed up world. Plus, that's why he gives us his commentary through everything. We're inside his head. That's also why we can't really change any of the story events, they've happened, we're just remembering them from Squall's perspective. Still about my favorite Final Fantasy. It's the best card game with an RPG attached to it that I've ever seen.
never truly understood this theory.. feels a bit weird
"Most of the story is some character's dying dream" is not an uncommon theory for various media, but it's usually pretty dumb and it ignores the very basic premise that the events of a story should matter.
The theory is funny because the game seems normal until disc 2 when it goes off the wall Crazy town
@@omensoffate that's true for a lot of FF games. 4 starts with typical midevil fantasy and ends on The Moon, and you got there on a whale shaped spaceship.
It’s just people trying to rationalize the batshit insane plot of VIII.
FF8 is weird.
I once had a theory of my own that combined both "Squall is dead" and "Rinoa is Ultimecia".
Without getting into the details, it starts with Squall dying after disc 1 as already discussed from previous theories. The start of disc 2, however, is not an afterlife flashback but rather the start of an endless time loop, one started by none other than Rinoa.
As Rinoa already had the "talent" to be a sorceress (that's why she was key for time compression near the end), she delved deeper in studying he gifts, in particular time magic as she was so traumatized by Squall's death that she wanted to turn back time to prevent it. Her efforts turned to obsession which eventually made her lose her mind and herself ultimately becoming Ultimecia.
She was able successfully reset time and was able to save Squall fron his fate but the effect of such actions was a time loop where the "original Rinoa" is now known as the Sorceress from the future (the reset and loop did not affect her). Her use of Griever as her GF (taking inspiration from Squall's pendant) all but erased her memory of the time she was still Rinoa as she is now obsessed with compressing time without really understanding as to why. The ending further shows other aspects of the time loop where the beaten Ultimecia passing her powers to Edea which starts the cycle anew.
The game that we play was the iteration of the cycle where they finally broke free and these versions of Squall and Rinoa were able to live on past the failed assassination attempt to Edea.
I know it's not a perfect theory and I'm not pushing for this to be true, but it is fun being able to craft your own understanding of the lore with just enough details given by the game :)
That's the theory I subscribe to, also. People always forget that Ultimacia is always destined to return by possessing Edea. But I also think it's hinted that each time she does this, she gets stronger and so eventually in an alternate reality will eventually win and compress time.
I always thought FF8 was a dream in Zell's head. All the man wants throughout the whole game is hot dogs. In the end, he saves the world, gets the girl, AND ***spoilers*** gets his hot dogs.
That he ultimately chokes on to death, very sadness 😢
After producing a 14-hour, extremely detailed, diary-like German commentary series about Final Fantasy 8, I also discussed these theories, of course. (I know shameless self-promoting :D)
------
- Squall is dead premise:
I will never understand how people can think that a wound-stopping icicle in the shoulder can kill Squall. To be honest, the fall on his head is far more deadly.
------
- The ending and Squalls black hole:
The ending scene begins with a darker Liberi-Fatali-like search. It's gloomy because Squall has some doubts, but not enough to stop him from continuing (there is still a way to go). Later, he finds himself alone without hope and begins to lose faith in surviving this ordeal (no path to move on). After grasping Rinoa's searching feather, he starts to remember her, and now the memories begin to fade. This is the thing that Ultimecia told him with her last breath. He will start to lose his memory.
He tries to remember her multiple times (such as the dancing scene, where she moves farther away from him). Finally, he lost her (Rinoa dies in space). This is also the moment with the black hole in Squall's head - he realizes that he has lost her (the memory of her). So, yes, you can interpret these scenes using symbolism.
------
- Why I dislike these theories:
I really disliked how these theories simply deny all the meaningful plot about growth and maturity in FF8. The most beautiful part about this game is how Squall learns to move on with his past and accept the help of other people.
The whole point of this game is to illustrate what happens if you cannot let go of your past. Ultimecia shows what happens if you can't let go - you are doomed to a repeated cycle of agony. Laguna shows how you can find happiness after facing numerous hardships in life (honestly, the poor guy lost all the loves of his life and is still a goofy fluff). Ellone and Squall are in the same boat. Ellone uses her power to accept her past and move on to live a happy life with Laguna. Squall does the same by allowing other people to help him.
Even Yoshinori Kitase (Director) has said multiple times that the theory about Squall being dead is wrong, and the same goes for the Ultimecia theory. However, he has also admitted that his other two writers could have add some ideas in this direction.
It wasn't Ultimecia who did the deed. It was Chaos. He always ruins everything. Who do you think started this time loop business? Chaos that's who. Jack was right. Chaos is turning the time loops gay.
Damn Chaos! He ruined Chaos.
Something I posted in dissidia forums long ago ans my headcanon was that due to Shiva being one of Squall's default GF, it might have allowed him to survive due to the attack being an ice attribute one
I like to think that Squall being tortured with eletric shocks at the beginning of Disc 2 is just him receiving CPR.
i love how the director of VIII has gone on record saying that even tho the theory isn't true, he loves how the fanbase still shows love for VIII x3
best part is.. that interview is OLD, and people still make stories about "maybe its true" even tho literally, the one who made the story told them its all bullshit XD people are just absurd to begin with.
@@WastedTalent83 true, but its an enduring theory, and i still enjoy it even tho i don't believe it xD
My take on it, is that since Ultimecia was possessing Edea, Edea made an attempt to assert dominance over Ultimecia when Squall was attacked with the ice spear managing to blunt the attack and that's how it didn't result in being fatal. When it comes to Seifer, it was Ultimecia taking advantage of Seifer's ego, knowing that this would make him an ideal puppet. And when it comes to Norg, it was never stated that he was an elder, more that he was a black sheep of the Shumi tribe. Those who don't become elders evolve into whatever is in their hearts, and since Norg only ever seemed to care about money overall, I reckon there was eventually a huge pile of Gil lying in the basement level of Balamb Garden.
Ultimecia’s control over Edea was also tenuous and sporadic. It’s absolutely possible after impaling Squall, her foster child whom she recognizes, Edea came to her senses and used her sorceress magic to heal him. However, since Squall did attack the sorceress who had pledged allegiance to Galbadia, he had to be locked up since he essentially attacked Galbadian royalty at that point.
Yeah people arn't giving Edea enough credit. Yes she was posessed, and yes Ultimecia was a more powerfull sorceress, but Edea was still one of the most power people in the game, to asume she would have no influence while being posessed is unlikley.
Seifer's gunblade was a physical weapon. Edea's "Ice Strike" limit break is magic-based, even though it works separately from Guardian Forces and Drawn Magic. Physical weapons and magic attacks rarely operate under the same set of rules. It could be that the ice was merely an illusion, and seeing that ice shard fly into himself, whether or not it actually did damage, could have been enough to stagger Squall and make him lose his balance.
He's alive because he met Sora
I'd rather hear about the most interesting theory which is Hyne is secretly the true final boss.
I think "Ultimecia is RInoa" is more likely than Squall being dead. I think in the future she does eventually lose him, so she does all of this just to have more time with him to essentially re-live her life with him.
8:05 Why Squall and not Quistis? Because Seifer has a grudge against Squall, and wanted to start with him. I don't think he was told to question them in a specific order - just to get all the required information from them.
Also Squall was the squad leader.
@@1Tekkaman That too.
Squall was just a Rockie.. what information could he possibly know that it’s worth healing his wound before he completely dies and interrogating him and putting him in a prison not asking his teacher Quistis who was been in the Galben garden for three years?
@@Omega-jg4oqSeifer believed there was some secret information you were told when you became a SeeD. If that had been true, it wouldn't have mattered which one he interrogated first - they'd all know the secret.
He's not dead, dunno why people think he got shot in the heart
Exactly, when you control Edea later in the game you’ll find out it was her limit break she used against Squall in the cutscene. It’s an ice strike, it’s not some super deadly ability. I’m not going to lie this is one of the dumbest theories out there, especially considering the whole plot revolves around Rinoa saving Squall and vice versa.
He literally got hit in the shoulder on the side of his body opposite his heart. Not exactly a fatal injury.
@@tungmiyaynusnbahls8936 I don't believe the theory either. However, you could argue that the ice strike limit break was squall's mind down playing the power of that attack.
@Minicrom justifying anything with that reasoning is kinda my point lol. It's one of the better thought-out fan theories, but that's partly down to how easy it is to ignore evidence to the contrary.
He got shot off of a giant bridge after being stabbed clean through the shoulder. In a game where a cut shot blood everywhere, left a scar, and required time to heal. It setup that attacks have realistic weight in cutscenes. It doesn't matter if it was the heart or not, if you get stabbed all the way through and fall off a bridge, you're dead.
But if Squall dies "for good" at the end of the video game, it's not consistent with being relaxed when you die since he desperately tries to remember all his friends' faces (in vain) and that's really scary (not to be able to remember their faces and being confused and losing one's memories).
Even if people say that Squall is not dead, the rest of the game just doesn’t make any sense and the ending is so freaking creepy.. it’s has to be the darkest FF ending I’ve seen, if anyone thinks that Squall is not dead.. then explain this weird shit ending, even Ultimatia says indirectly that Squall is losing his memories and he can’t hold it any longer
The existence of the monsters and GF's are proof enough that a singular monster popping up a little later does little to carry weight on this theory. In disk 1 you can roam around the school and in the garden you fight plant monsters and a T-Rex... That's random and heavily fantasy based for something that's grounded
YESSSSS...I've been waiting for this video from you guys forever! Keep up the great work!
I like the theory that Ultimecia alters the timeline to where the Draw System doesn't exist.
Maybe in the remake 🤣
I can't imagine why anyone even ultimecia wouldn't like the draw system.
Problem being altering the timeline is explicitly impossible in the FFVIII 'verse.
Joke's on her, you can beat the game wthout it! ruclips.net/video/tx3l0kENONY/видео.html
@@1Tekkaman no, it's not. Im not a fan of the fan theories but there is nothing in the game that indicates that it is definitively "impossible" maybe difficult but not "impossible"
@@dmac1259 Ellone says it outright.
This game needs a remake more than any other title. It could be so ambitious.
It would also benefit the most from Persona style relationship aspects.
As long as they do a full remake. I saw the Chrono Cross "remake". Blegh
@@richardalward7300 That was a remaster.
@@DragonQueefs I saw the video talking about all they did to it. It was a smoothing and copy and paste.
@@richardalward7300 Yeah. It was a remaster.
If they do add that theory into a remake, it should probably be behind a 100%, new game+, talk to 5 random people, kind of hidden bit.
Great vid & great channel. Ffviii moment that shocked me was Dr. Odine doating on how his prototype would directly enable Ultamecia's plan. Yet rather than dismantle his legacy, his plan is to put Rinoa up as a sacrificial lamb.😮
Nice, a real one! Lol I’m glad to have another well thought out video. There’s a lot of very fascinating implications in this game and it’s lore, I’d love for square to revisit it, in a quality way.
Love it or hate it, this a famous theory that really got alot of other fan theories started (such as the old 'Comatose Ash Theory'), as well as some creepypastas.
What I like about the "Squall is Dead" theory is that it deliberately ignores that this is a world where people channel magical creatures to enhance their strength (and summon them to hit enemies), magic is real and used as a power source, swords that use bullets to enhance their striking abilities are considered the norm and people can turn a card game into a weapon - but suddenly, witches that possess people, flying school fortresses and space-time compression are "too absurd and weird".
People really do have too much free time.
P.S. guys, keep in mind that FF VIII is a time loop. Artemsia gets defeated by Squall, she transfers her soul into Edea as time goes back the way it is, causes the founding of SeeD and the Gardens and thus leads to Squall once again existing and being there to stop her over and over again. It's not unreasonable for Artemisia to know of Squall and his importance.
I mean, just the other day I ventured with my professor in a lava cavern to tame a beastly fire spirit so I could become stronger and pass my magical military test against an invading nation's mechas, including their self-repairing giant spider mech.
Grounded as f*ck, mate.
Its Only 1 time loop though right?
@@juliuscasar7202 Who says that? We could be at any number of time loops, as Artemisia's attempt to avoid death is to possess Edea as time winds back to its natural flow.
I remember the interview where they debunked the Ultimecia is Rinoa and Squall is dead theories and people where like "I don't care what the writer says I choose to believe these theories" lol
I don’t know man, it’s so suspicious and the fact that there’s so many evidences for both theories and let’s not forget that weird creepy ending, I feel like the developer was trolling and didn’t want to outright said it but at least he said that the theories are interesting and if they ever going to do a remake, they might put it into the game
Oh my. Squall did not die at the end of disc one. That scene about seifer was a self awakening. These are students still. They are learning about themselves and the world around them.
Maybe Ellone had something to do with squall being alive after disc 1
The music in 8 is possibly even better than 7
Definitely
Favorite OST. Blue Fields, Liberi Fatali, Fisherman's Horizon, Fragments of Memories, The Oath, and Maybe I'm a Lion. So many good tracks.
You know your plot is wacky when a fan theory about the main character dreaming the whole thing gains this much traction and persists for as long as it has. I like the squalls dead theory and that split second snap of squall with no face is strangely unsettling.
I feel that FFVIII is a product of the supreme confidence the devs gained as a result of a straight decade of back-to-back hits. Emboldened by their “we can’t ****ing miss!” attitudes and an unfathomably large budget having spent so much on FFVII and made enormous returns they just really went all-out and created something truly wacky. Still a work of art though despite it’s flaws.
I like how players come up with theories that greatly improve the original narrative. The "Squall is dead" and "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theories are my favorites, not just because they have make you think more about the events of the game, but also because those theories actually have grounds to stand on. Theres a scene where Ultimecia literally does the pointing up gesture that is Rinoa's unique habit.
PAUL IS DEAD.....oh, you said Squall.
.mih ssim I .llauqS deirub I
No, silly, Squall's NOT dead.. but Rinoa is Ultimecia 100%
That's what Chaos wants you to think
Don't listen to Ondore's lies!
100% aint 99%! Im Not playing old ff8 again till Its offical that they are the fucking same!
Yes, absolutely. I don’t know Kitase continues to lie to us.
Absolutely.
In a way, I think the "Squall is Dead" theory would add some Beauty and Encouragement to the story.
It could have been that he died and didn't know it, but regardless, he would move on aimlessly and lost.
At first it was moving on alone, but then it turned into move on for Companionship, for Love. To stay within love, he was willing to fight time and even space to do it.
Defying a lonely Death to pursue a loving Life.
It's a hack writing trope man
Highly recommend the story or short film "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge" which essentially invented this literary concept.
Ahh, the real nitty gritty of FF8, and during Squalls re-work in Oprea Omni no less
My biggest issue with 8 has to be Ultimecia. She was an afterthought and, even tho it's clear that she's controlling Edea from the get go, we barely know her and her motivations to do what she's doing are VERY weak.
I think it would've been perfect to leave Edea as the main antagonist. It would actually hit even harder, knowing that at some point she was the party's guardian/mentor/mother.
Instead we have this witch that comes out of nowhere. If there's ever a remake, Ultimecia is the character that need the most work of the entire cast or be bold and just axe her
Seems like a few too many FF titles have the "Secret Final Boss Behind Everything".
She gets more character than FFIX boss. You literally meet it for the first time when you fight it, then that's just that.
@@thekwjiboo an over ripe banana has more character than all of ff9
But the story isn't about ultimecia. She is a plot device. The stories about the rest of the cast of characters under this told very well. It's really great to have a story that's not all about the final boss.
@@thekwjiboo This was my only complaint with FF9. I played it a few years back and for all the praise it gets, that secret final boss had me screaming "omg leave ff8 and ulti alonnnnne". Literally, a final boss outta nowhere we know absolutely nothing about! At least I had an idea of what Ulti was trying to do and how she was doing it and you sort of "meet her" by the middle of disc 2, I think?
Fin Fantasy Union, you are a great channel. You as well as other channels just goes to show how amazing these games were for our childhood.
Child soldiers using magic, limit breaks, fighting T-Rex’s, an exam fighting and capturing a literal deity, sorceresses, and being telepathically transferred into the past…. But disks 2-4 were unrealistically weird. Okie dokie.
8 has always been my favourite, and honestly, I agree with your input. Rinoa is unclear in Squalls mind, so he cannot ‘anchor’ himself to reality, because he can’t visualise the time, place and who he wants to be with. His mind is racing, he’s terrified, and he feels that he is nothing without Rinoa. The face is simply to represent that. His identity, or lack of, if he can’t find her. That’s why the next image is Rinoa, dead in space, with his ring floating. His fear that he can’t get back so he can’t be with her, he can’t save her. He can’t protect her and therefore he is nothing. She finds him, using the feather from the first cutscene, because time loop, and every time you start the game it’s the start of another loop.
There is another possibility. The faceless Squall is his interpretation that she forgot him. If he can’t remember her clearly, did she remember him? If he can’t make it back, could she? He has no idea, and that absolutely would explain the image of Rinoa. She’s dead, he is terrified, the fear causes the tear to fall and him to pass out. The image isn’t Squall is dead. The image is that Squall is terrified that Rinoa is dead.
He's not dead. Not at all. Your heart isn't in your right shoulder and that's exactly where you see his wound is.
Left or right, it doesn't matter. If you get impaled and are thrown a considerable distance, you're going to have a bad time.
@@MegaShepardsPie it seems like you haven't played the game if you think that's the worst thing that happens to him during the game. He can survive black holes and dinosaurs and gods. Getting lanced in the shoulder and living is one of the more believable things about the story.
@@MegaShepardsPie and people say that he died because he takes it to the heart. Which is factually incorrect.
It should be stated that the impact zone of the icicle is very much not his right shoulder but further down to include the right side of his chest. It's very possible it could have punctured his lung.
@@SexyRexy08 May I remind you that the same also happened to Aerith, yet she was stabbed in the back and killed. FF14 does it well by explaining that some wounds are too deep and unable to close over with healing spells, leading to death.
FF8 was always my favorite
The movie "Inception" basically uses one form of this theory;
in fact, the power of the ending in that movie is that Dom Cobb doesn't know if he is awake or in a dream, and decides that it doesn't matter in the end.
I don't agree with either of the theories to be correct. However, one thing I noted was that Squall's hollowed face was like Ultimecia's Final Form's Upper body's face. Ultimecia was compressing time at that moment. Time Compression fuses memories of past, present and future. I think the ending was showing Squall falling into Time Compression. One thing that always made me question is why did Squall see Rinoa dead in space? That made me come up with a theory I call 'Rinoa is Dead'. That the real Rinoa died and Ultimecia replaced her. The Rinoa from Ragnarok onwards was Ultimecia. However, we need to remember that the game's creators are the ones who decide what's going on. So I don't think my theory is valid. The game creators are straightforward with what they wanted the story to be. That being said I do enjoy discussing fan theories. So I don't mind fans expressing their theories.
What always makes me chuckle is the name of the theory: Squall's dead. Not Squall is dead. Just Squall's dead.
I always felt that the theory itself is really dumb and holds no water, but the image of Squall's black hole face is pure nightmare fuel. I'm just happy I never saw it as a kid.
The theory of _"this is just a dream / its imagination"_ cannot be disproved once a character is wounded, or even go to sleep in the scenario. It can be applied every time. It is appealing at first glance as it give us the _"it makes sense"_ and _"it explains everything"_ feeling, so we end up thinking "it is way deeper than I thought". In reality, it is just a lame way to write a story.
It removes all the tension of the story. Sure, the first time it is done, it feels genius. The second time, it feels unoriginal. The third time, it feels cheesy. And we are past the third time here: Mario Land 2 used that card a long time ago!
When used by fan, it really feels like a cheap _"get-out-of-jail"_ card, as if they are ashamed of some story elements or some flaws, and want to hide it behind this all-purpose theory trope.
Well, if you had better ideas cause I would Looooove to know Wtf the ending means
This theory has a lot of potential, and it would be a really cool surrealistic experience if it was done right. For example, the game could _secretly_ use this theory without telling the players about it, and go on basically like normal, but also plant a few strange events here and there, which are _just_ strange enough to make the player a bit suspicious.
Imagine for example that you at some point notice that you cannot find any real order to some of the events in your life;
for example, you might be busy with some project, but cannot find out from anyone when you started it - or _why_ you started it - and you might suddenly be busy moving to some other city for no clear reason.
Those kinds of events would probably make you start wondering if you might actually be dreaming - like "dreamsigns" - and this is what a "Squall Is Dead" type of storyline could feel like when it started to make up scenes that don't make perfect sense in that world.
You also get a lot of this type of experience in the South Park episode "Grounded Vindaloop", which is about people getting lost in several levels of virtual reality and experiencing more and more "wtf?" moments, such as Butters being grounded for absolutely no reason and things like that.
I think everybody missed the dialog between Squall and the sorceress(forgot her name), she said she immediately healed squall after he got stabbed because it wasn’t her that mentally did it. It was ultimaceia.
FF8 truly fits the name of a final fantasy
Anyone who ascribes to this theory is unfamiliar with this man's writing. Or they should know better.
"Oh the story gets completely whackadoo after the first act!"
I'm a Kingdom Hearts fan, guys. Tetsuya Nomura is just... LIKE this.
More like Square in general is just like this. Nomura was only lightly involved with this game.
Nomura did not write the scenario. Yoshinori Kitase did.
@@Rorujin Really? He started with X? My mistake.
It's all throughout the franchise. FF4 ends with fighting a cosmic flea that possessed a Moon wizard, and you get to him with a whale shaped space ship.
I've never heard anyone try to say Cecil died when his boat capsized
@@GiantButterKnife I think a lot of this is coming from the fact that VII merely had a GRADUAL increase in crazy. Not a point where it spiked.
"disc 1 was far more grounded"
"Make your way through our school training grounds but watch out for the T Rexes!"
“IF we do remake VIII, we will do so with that theory in mind…”
Meaning they would change the game altogether which I’m not on board for. I hate that they changed VII and I certainly don’t want any other games changed.
1) He is NOT dead at the end Disc 1;
2) Rinoa and Ultimecia are two completely different people;
3) There was NEVER any plan to let you revive Aeris;
4) Gogo did NOT leave Final Fantasy V for Final Fantasy VI:
5) The link between X and VII, however, is possible!
Kazushige Nojima outright confirmed the 7-X link in an interview. And also i think in the x-2 ultimania.
I mean, of course X and VII being linked is possible, it was flatout confirmed.
3) YET! the remake allowed wedge to survive and also there could be a sequel to allow it. FF7 is NOT a good game just because Aeris dies. I question the world we live in if all FF7 is about Aeris' death.
The interview everyone is “citing” was just Nojima playing around with the idea and was never meant to be taken literally.
VII and X are NOT linked together.
@@lordbauer5983 they are officially linked. Not only was he not "playing around" it is stated in the official X-2 Ultimania which is cannon.
I like the idea that Ultimecia being Rinoa's bloodline rather than Rinoa being Ultimecia.
Yes, this is more acceptable, can someone start this theory somewhere pls
If Ultimecia was Rinoa's descendant, she would be reluctant to kill Rinoa because of the "grandfather paradox": you kill your ancestor, you cease to exist (at least before time compression, which makes causality more of a rough guideline than a law). But Ultimecia attempts to kill Rinoa by abandoning her body in space with limited life support.
Yoshinori Kitasi already said this theory wasn't true. He also said Rinoa was not Ultimecia.
For me its more on what magic is like in the game. You cast as many magic as you want to enemies and even party members and it would not entirely kill you, it’ll hurt but will not fatally wound you. The icicle is just like blizzard magic that would disappear in a couple of secs. Maybe it’s a stretch but yeah id like to think of it that way
What is interesting about this theory is that we can play the whole game pretending Squall actually dies and it all still makes a lot of sense.. It was debunked by the developers but the coincidences just keep piling up to the very last moment where the recording from the cerimony doesnt show Squall like the FMV does..and Rinoa seems to be alone at the balcony. I love this theory and for me, personally, it is as valid as the official story being told in the game.
Debunking by the developers means nothing. No company will ever acknowledge such darker theories because it might alienate and upset fans. Something being debunked even though there's strong evidence against the debunking just means that the devs didn't want to associate the game with such a dark ending (Squall's death or Rinoa's suffering).
@@Emajenus in the end we can just experience the game and story as we want... but do the coincidences align with this theory.. they didnt even mention half of them in this video.
@@Emajenus Uhhh... Sorry to tell you friend, but debunking by the developers literally means it's not canon, regardless of how anyone feels about that. You can choose to follow a fan theory if you prefer that interpretation of events, but that doesn't make it true to the actual story. I enjoy the theory myself, but I also admit that it's purely headcanon and nothing more.
@@Emajenus What? Debunked by developers/ creators mean nothing? Am I living in the clown world or something?
@@boidzerg1380 The developer who debunked it wasn't the one who wrote the story. Totsuya Nomura had very minimal involvement in FF8.
Also these people are bound by the company to say what the company wants them to say. No dev can say "hey that was our intention but it was a bit dark so the execs said no to the idea after we put in all the hints already".
So yes, it means nothing.
This theory was great back in the day, until the interview with the people who made the game, being asked if he's dead, and they flat out said that definitively he is NOT dead.
yea. and Smash players still think Smash Bros is a fighting game when the creator straight up denied that publicly, but hey... what can ya do
He can just denied that, but squall is dead theory is more makes sense
My take on it. If the developers say Squall isn't dead , then Squall isn't dead. The End
I think the squall is dead theory brings another lv of quality to the plot. Instead of some random situation, now everything can be cohesive understood as an interpretation of near death experience.
This is more fitting to the overall Final Fantasy lore in the end
The game increase its value as its interesting to people who wants the things more cut and dry while also appeal the player who needs to see something more meaningful
It's confirmed by devs that he's not dead + no one got that impression playing it before learning about the theory.
@Minicrom I don't care. Your reply doesn't affect what I said.
im just glad that Kitase himself couldnt believe this theory and thought it was a joke at first. yes, art is art and you can make up whatever you want but this theory probably not some the guy even believed in at first but just made up in his head to "stick out".
The ending is a time paradox. Part of it keeps replaying him meeting Rinoa for the first time at the banquet and Rinoa being stuck in space. These two events are key as it will decide whether Ultimecia is permanently eliminated. If Squall never meets Rinoa, Ultimecia dies because the events of the story will never take place; Rinoa will not be dragged into this sorceress stuff and carry Ultimecia’s powers.
Additionally, if Squall never saves Rinoa in space (remember the portion of the ending where her space helmet cracks?), she dies alone and has no one to transfer her powers to (no Adel fight, no time compression, no Ultimecia power transfer). I think ultimately, Squall realizes he can never have Rinoa, otherwise he’ll be stuck in this time loop forever.
I hate this theory, and I hate that I know the asshole who first came up with this theory. While the whole "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory is kind of weird but still holds some ground, this theory is just bonkers.
@@Peter_1986 The theory itself is contrived. The "anger" issues are related to the guy who came up with it, who severely abused/beat down his girlfriend, who was an online friend of mine at that time.
I have reasons to have certain "anger issues" whenever this theory comes up.
Gosh I hope they didn't convince Kitase to do anything like that if they remake that masterpiece of a game, someday. 😅
The whole "everything was a dream" or "nothing was true" trope is just awful. It always is. 😂
Well, I wouldn’t say always. It only works if it adds stakes, and doesn’t take away from them. I’d say it was pretty effective in FFX and Link’s Awakening. I don’t think it would really add to FFVIII though.
Why? It would make the story (maybe they would rename it to Director`s Cut or sth :D ) much more sad and it is a good thing ;)
Jacob's Ladder is basically just that and it's a great movie.
@@TheBlueLink3 It adds stakes by Squall being dead. Those are the stakes. We know Zack dies at the end of Crisis Core yet we all play through it regardless. It's not like those who played the original VII refuse to play Crisis Core because we already know the ending.
@@Rhomagus what stakes ? The game is already about facing destiny, saving the world and accepting yourself and others to find true love and become a leader. That's already pretty heavy on stakes. 😅
If you really want stakes, consider that Ultimecia is probably Squall and Linoa's daughter or at least direct descendant (that's why she hates Seeds and has every single one of Squall's Gfs
In a corrupted form in her castle). Therefore the whole game becomes one tragic cursed love story linking three generations of the same family, with Laguna and Julia missing their chance, Squall and Linoa fulfilling that promised love and Ultimecia trying to destroy everything because nothing good came out of it in the end. 😂
My main argument against the theory is that there would be no reason for there to be story sequences that don't feature Squall at all, like the Missile Base mission.
Usually I hate "character was dead the whole time" theories because they're usually really dumb, but this one is pretty fun. Like, yeah it seems like something you'd start to dream as your brain begins to die that your school can fly now and you, equivalent of a college freshman, are now in charge of the military. But also as far as debunking it, I did always figure it was Edea who healed you, later reinforced by learning that she was once your caretaker. As for monsters on the moon, as far as fantastical vs grounded concepts go, it's for me about as grounded as any explanation we've ever seen in any RPG for why monsters live all over the world. You rarely get any kind of explanation as to why the land is thick with horrible monsters, and the Lunar Cry is about as grounded and scientific an explanation as any tbh.
This is one of my favorite video game theories ever.
Loved FF8
@Minicrom Death is a stake. Regardless, no one applies this to Crisis Core. It doesn't matter if your character is dead or will inevitably die. It's about the journey.
My favorite FF Fan Theory 💜
You mean the one that the creators of the game immediately said "no that's not true' to
@@dmac1259 Yes. 😘
One of the creators/writers of FF8 said years ago that this theory actually isnt true, and Squall was only stabbed in the shoulder by Edea
😂😂😂😂😂😂
I love this so much.
How this theory can still be worked into the story, but explain that Squall is still alive:
Squall: *is actually dead from being impaled by an icicle*
A random prison medic: *yeets a bottle of phoenix down at his corpse and peaces out of the room*
*Disc 2 starts*
Squall: No wound?....
Random Squaresoft dev on a loud speaker: So, we already kinda made all the CGI cutscenes and combat animations, and we can't afford to scrap all those, just for a hole in your jacket, so you do have a wound, but you can't see it. Thanks!
Also on a more serious note, it makes no sense for it to be a near-death dream, since he knows about Laguna and the group, and his relation to him as his dad, something Squall would never know about. Alternatively, he knows how Esthar looks, which would be impossible since Esthar sequestered themselves from the rest of the world, well before Squall was born, so he wouldn't know how to visualize that place.
The creator of the story itself debunked this theory in a interview, though he did like it, he also liked the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory as well, in fact he said i think that was pretty close.. i saw this mentioned in a video a long way back, or maybe an article? Not sure
This theory has been debunked by important people to its development, along with Rinoa is Ultimecia, unfortunately for those who dislike the story of 8, it is what it is. Though he said the this one was interesting and might use it if they ever remake it, but hopefully they leave 8 alone imo.
I'd love to beat it but I can't deal with junctioning.
@@etinarcadiaego7424 honestly the part that makes ff8 my favorite is the story, just throw on god mode and at least see that part of it. i have never personally seen an issue with that, as FF games always stand out because of their stories most of all.
The producers of ff8 did find the theory interesting and might use it if ff8 gets a remake someday.
Source?
Even if Kitase did state he was not dead, I still think he may be lol. One theory I wish wasn't debunked by him. But a remake would be amazing with his comments about using that for it.
That would be so terrible. Needlessly adopting a dumb theory. Yikes.
@@seanmcwhorter8119 agreed.
@@seanmcwhorter8119 yep
Just the notion of them mentioning “if” they make a FF8 remake, makes me excited to know they would consider doing so, as this is the dawn of remakes. I love this game so much and would love an enhanced experience of this world and it’s characters with a defined story on a new level
8 is my favorite numbered FF. If that's what they gotta pull on to remake it then, hell, do what you gotta do.
Ah the Squall is Dead theory. Up there with "Ash is in a coma" as completely vacuous theories made by uncreative children in the 2000s who thought a character being dead all along is the height of narrative excellence. All that stuff about the importance of adolescence and learning to cherish the time you have before time marches you inevitably into adulthood? Nah, that's lame, the story would be so much better if it had no point and the protagonist died just because.
Yup. Another one would be the Ed, Edd, and Eddy theory that states that all the kids are dead and in purgatory, the Canker sisters are demons, and Eddy's brother is Satan himself. Just kids trying to be dark and edgy without any comprehension of what either of those things actually entail.
This is the dumbest edgelord looking-down-my-nose-at-the-simpletons theory that has ever been attached to a FF title. Zero narrative support. Legit hate that it still gets attention to this day.
The biggest way to counter this is: the shard goes on a completely safe area (doesn't reach a lung, doesn't reach the hurt, it's just muscle piece, not even bone harmed) and being ice it doesn't even bleed. That's not a fatal wound. That's not a mortal wound whatsoever. The first time we watched it it looked like it went through his neck but as soon as it moves it's the shoulder. Further more, his dreamed reality would not involve him becoming the hero and learning to rely on others, it would be the opposite.
It's in a world full of magic and Squall supposedly has information that the most powerful sorceress of all time wants to torture out of him. Even if he took the icicle directly to the Head that's the one person in that world that could definitely bring him back to life. Especially given that she's a Time sorceress.
My headcanon is that the whole game is actually a flashback. Please here my theory.
In the intro movie you see various scenes allround the game, and we see Rinoa sending a feather to look for Squall. "Find me a gunblade wielder with a scar and connection to sorceress, and who I have an emotional connection with and other stuff; find HIM". Feather finds Sq.. Seifer, no, the other one. These 2 character, Seifer and Squall, have so similar story through the game that it's impossible to separate them. Only way to do so is to follow the plot rail from the scar fight to final Seifer battle and what happened after that? The time warp. First time we see a gunblade it has a fade to Edea. Rinoa/feather does not follow herself or Squall but overall plot in time. Go and rewatch the intro movie, how it pairs Squall and Seifer, Rino and Edea, Squall and Rino and Seifer and Edea. White feathers and then, black feathers. Also the intro begins at he end and ends at beginning.
Id hate it if they did use this theory in a remake...i love ff8 and squall too much too handle this.