Hey, Kein Anderer here (co-creator of the dyno) and happy to see that you are getting into all our piston community stuff, learning about tools and technology. Also appreciate that you like the dyno this much, means a lot, as it did with everyone else in the community that has liked it so far. Since you were wondering about how we calculate our units, speed is a given from the modpack meter (degress/second -> divide by 6 -> rpm), torque is applied by a smart engine which is known to create its torque based on Nm (as all units in the game are SI units). Power is then calculated in the standard fashion of multiplying torque and speed and dividing it by the correct factor to get to horsepower. To get all other units, we use standard conversion you would use in real life aswell. All of this has nothing to do with weight or mass btw. You also showcased that the dyno applies load until it hits 0 rpm, but that doesnt have to be this way. You can actually adjust that speed, which me and ben call "target rpm", to try and match any engine speed you want. We even automated that partially to compensate for bearing flex, as that was an issue in the past. You can adjust that and a lot more stuff with the values below, further explained in the dynos description if youre interested. Feel free to ask me or ben about any of this aswell! And I think it also makes sense to clear up something about the graphs. With the way we have to dyno engine in scrap mechanic, the graphs are actually inverted compared to what you would expect in real life (peak speed on the left, lowest speed on the right). Knowing this should make the graphs shape make a lot more sense logically. One thing that sort of confuses me about what you are doing, you know that your "informer" asks us about multiple things? Why not just come to us and let us explain everything properly. I feel like that will make a lot more sense logically or do you have a reason why you wanna learn everything indirectly like this? Dont get me wrong, I do like seeing you try this out and I am happy that you like it, this part just confuses me. If you have any more questions regarding the dyno and its functions and maybe how to generally tune engines well and make high performance designs, feel free to ask me. I am also available on discord, your "informer" can bring you to me if you so wish. Hope to see more content like this in the future.
Gotta say, this is one of the most impressive mods I have seen in a game. Very well done! Do you and your buddy that worked on this have any other projects/mods in other games you guys do?
huh so yall dont use weight? if you wanted to know anyway 1 notch of weight is 5.1339285714285714285714285714286kg to 5.3571428571428571428571428571429kg
@@Naughty_Ram Yeah, ben does quite a few mods like his most recent blueprint editing tool. One of the most useful tools to have and its super code optimized too. I mainly make piston powered creations, with the exception of the challenge pack youve probably seen already lol. My newest car implementing electronic engine management and automatic timing in vanilla with AWD and torque vectoring. Its called "The Nova".
All units used in the game ate real world units (if you use the scripting api). For example 4 blocks = 1 meter. If i apply a force unings a script this is done in newtons. And obviously this also means weight is measured in grams/kilograms (not entirely sure which as ive used them very little) even though the game doesn't display the exact values. Edit: after some research i discovered that its probably kg, 1m^3 of concrete weight 2.5 tons, so the modpack readings are relatively accurate.
So then the unit conversions at some point are just arbitrarily chosen to sound about right? Because the game uses it’s completely own units that don’t have any exact real world reference.
@@Omlet221 The units in game have the same relations as in the real world. The devs however have the creative liberty to pick whichever constants they want for the speed of a projectile, force of a thruster, weight of a block or anything else for that matter. The units are not arbitrary, the constants in the game are. Gravity is 10m*s^-2, not 9.81. That does not change the fact that its a perfectly good assumption/creative liberty for the game. My statement regarding a cubic meter of concrete only serves to validate my claim that mass is treated as kg internally by the game.
You should create a Multiplayer Monday challenge, with building the best Engine´d car and dynoing it on two of those dynos, so it looks like a real dyno. Then do like a dragrace or something!
Hey its Ben Bingo! I'm super happy you enjoy the dyno, really appreciate the kinds words, I can also explain some of the questions you had: The exact torque numbers for the electric engine is 1000Nm (doesn't change) and for the gas engine its 6990Nm (max lvl), the reason you are seeing the dyno go above that is because of the speed of the input going from the normal operating speeds of gas and electric to the target speed makes its quite hard for the PID to react since its process value is the input speed, so it does jump a bit over, but you shouldn't have much of a problem with piston engines as its more of a progressive decrease in rpm. Also, since the dyno is constantly dynoing for max torque, its actually better to use the average torque value, the max is there just in case the engine stalls early or reverses, so you will see a lot less of a blip if you use the average, and if you do see one, the dyno should try to fix itself albeit quite slowly because the current rpm is very close to its target. On the topic of Newton meters, scrap mechanic actually uses metric for most, if not all of its units, and the x o meter outputs the creations weight in Newtons even though it says mass. The reason you had quite a high amount of Newtons when you tried to manually test is probably just due to weirdness with physics as scrap likes to sometimes freeze bodies if they are moving too slowly or just doing nothing. The smart engine also applies torque in Newton Meters. About the graph, the graphs X unit is scaled from the peak rpm of the input and its target speed, so when you see the graph plotting constantly all the way to the left, it either means the rpm is increasing or it just isn't changing, its also why you see it sometimes plotting half way down the screen if the dyno hasn't been reset and the input starts getting dyno'd as a much slower speed. Anyway super thrilled you found this, makes me really look forward to more future piston engine vids, A spreadsheet also sounds very interesting, it will be cool to see what you come up with to improve some of your piston engine skills. If there are any more questions that I forgot to answer, feel free to let me know!
Do you have a force variant? You know those thruster-less boat designs? I'm curious what the average thrust of them are. More data could also allow us to build better paddle boats.
@@Laff700 That would be very nice to make, but its its very hard to measure this, and me and kein haven't looked into it much, but if we get more people wanting this, we will more than likely do some research
@@Ben_Bingo It'd be nice if there was a mod which could tell you the force and torque acting on a body with a given trajectory and orientation. That'd make this all simpler. In the meantime though, force being applied to a lever is converted into torque. This could be used to measure force. The angle of the bearing would need to stay close to 0 probably.
There are different types of dynos. Rolling road dynos are when you strap the car down and drive it on rollers. The rollers inertia is known, and by measuring how quickly it is accelerated at any given point in time (moment acceleration) allows you to calculate the power and torque since you also know the engine rpm at any given point, and the gear ratio you are in. Then there are hub dynos, which you attach instead of wheels, and i think they have a braking system, i think it is hydraulic, with which you can apply a known and varying amount of "braking load". That allows you to tune the engine at a fixed rpm but with varying load, aswell as a "normal" acceleration run where you get a power curve for the whole rpm range. There are probably more nuances and different types of dynos than this, but this is what i know.
@jakobnorrestam What calculation would need to be done on HP, TQ, gear or RPM? That is what the dyno does all on it's own by water volume, and PSI on the drive unit. Dynos can also run the driveline without the engine in the car or truck running. Might be time to check what you "know", maybe?
That's what I figured was happening with the roller dynos, know how much weight you are spinning and how fast can be used to calculate power required to do so. Cool stuff really.
You've been reading the Dyno graph incorrectly. 0 RPM is on the right side and max RPM is on the left side. You can know that by multiplying the torque times RPM and obtaining power, so if torque is constant, the power increases linearly, and if you see the Dyno graph, you can see that it doesn't happens UNLESS you look it from right to left
The tremmel gear is really close perfect and not having any losses. I was expecting it to double the torque, but have a lot less HP because of the friction, but it stayed almost the same
@@Pystro sometimes the readings are inaccurate because it goes over the required torque then it doesnt come back down. if you reduced the "count speed" setting, you would have much more accurate readings. its closer than 1.2% i believe.
I just want to say that I am loving these videos recently. Both the piston engine stuff and the robot arm. These more technical style videos are so interesting.
*Re: How dynos work IRL.* There are a few kinds, depending on what their range is. Some use viscous couplings with variable amount of fluid (cylinder spinning in a stationery cup; more fluid- more load). Some are just a pump what circulates a liquid. Power is derived from pressure and flow of said liquid and load is applied by closing a valve to restrict flow. In a way you can derive torque/power of a motor just by varying its speed. Rev a flywheel from let's say 1000rpm to 1500 and time it. Knowing mass of the entire rotating assembly you can calculate acceleration, and from there power.
IRL there are broadly two types of dynos: Inertial and absorber. Inertial dynos time how long it takes to spin up an object of known rotational inertia from one RPM to another. Faster spin up = more power. They are incapable of measuring power at a constant RPM. But they tend to be the lowest cost way of testing an entire vehicle power output. Absorber dynos absorb the mechanical power developed by an engine and turn it into heat. They are usually equipped with a lever arm and load cell to measure torque and an encoder to measure RPM. They then calculate resulting horse power. Common absorption methods are water brake, eddy current, and induction. Water brake use the engine to push water through a restriction, heating the water. They are less expensive and have the advantage of the high specific heat of water being able to absorb lots of power. They can be hard to control. Eddy current usually rotate a metal disc through a magnetic field. Control is easier, but cooling harder. Induction use modified AC induction electric motors. They have the advantage of being able to spin the engine under test to measure parameters which can't be measured by other dynos, such as pumping losses. But they generally have lower RPM limits, are more expensive, and have the most rotational inertia, and so can deliver different results based on how fast the RPM changes during the test. There are arguments ad nauseum and ad astra about which type is "best." But it is important to remember they are engineering test devices which have different properties, including cost, which make them more or less suitable for different applications. And their results must always be confirmed by real world testing.
From what I understand, the torque is a constant in scrap mechanic for engines. So when you slow down the engine that amount of torque is divided over a smaller area. So yeah when holding the block is wasn’t going to affect anything because it wasn’t moving, but if there had been movement you get more torque per amount turn of wheel with slower engine speeds, which is why you saw a difference in toque with changing the engine speeds on the dyno and not the block of weight.
people like you got me into mechanical engineering and now its a long lasting hobby of mine i feel like more than just me cought a passion from this channel and for that thanks a lot❤
As a service tech at an ag equipment dealer, i use a pto dyno pretty regularly. It essentially uses a large brake similar to what's on a semi. When force is applied to the brake, a scale measures how much force is being transferred. You can manually adjust how tight the brake is. It is very different than one you'd use for a car from what i understand
I would love to watch you test more with the dyno. Take us on a journey of optimizing a couple of your piston engines since you can now reliably test their performance without having to guess
tried it on one of mine egines, was a v-12 piston engine i made a while ago. after replacing the old pistons with the max upgraded pistons and making a new timing system it produced an avarage of a bit more then 7700 nm.
one thing I don't think people realize with the gas engine is they have a kind of open differential in them. If you have one wheel on the ground and one in the air all the power goes to the wheel in the air. If you hooked up an engine per wheel you'd unlock a fair bit of potential. I never did it cuz I played survival, and the cost of a second engine exceeded the benefit of the increased traction.
Interesting observation I'm not sure how game calculates if multiple bearings are attached to one gas engine, is it that every bearing is like small independent gas engine, or is the power really distributed with open differential? Simulating an open diff. is more complex, so I think that each bearing acts as independent gas engine Which means that if one wheel is off the ground, that bearing is easy to rotate so it speeds up, while wheel on ground is under double load so gas engine cannot accelerate it It has been a while since I played, so many things could change
@jakubpollak2067 I dont think your idea makes sense. In my observation the contacted wheels almost all power. Itd be easy enough to test if i had it installed. Also an open diff is super easy to simulate. The power a wheel gets is inversely proportional to the amount of grip that wheel has. So the wheel that has 0% of the traction has 100% of the power. Its pretty linear. In the real world theres some minimum power that all drive wheels recieve due to friction and other complications, but its usually functionally the same as the mathematical model
so from the 3 seconds of research i did and a decent understanding from seeing them work in real life, it seems a real dyno works by basically using an electric motor and absorbing it in some way and it uses that electrical data to produce a torque reading. its kinda cool to look into bc its basically magic lol
11:00 Yes, friction based measurements are one type. Simply - One way to measure power of engine, is to attach the engine to giant electric motor (It has to be more powerful that engine you are testing) Motor will rotate at 500 rpm, and torque meter will check the torque. Then the electric motor will go 600 rpm, measure torque This will repeat until measured torque will be negative (motor rotating engine, because engine cannot keep up) Now you have table of measurements, because you know exactly the rpm and you measured torque, so you can calculate power and draw graph This is how you measure the engine vs giant motor, or small electric motor vs giant motor > This measurement will tell you about raw power the engine makes - You could also measure power by accelerating the known mass For example car on dyno will try to rotate heavy flywheel from idle to max rpm You can plot rpm vs time and calculate angular acceleration of flywheel. If you know it's mass you can calculate inertia. Acceleration is based on force divided by inertia and acceleration depends on torque directly. Then again, you take the torque, rpm and get power. > This measurement will tell you about power the engine transfers to road (so gearbox, tires, bearing loss included)
theres also other things you can do to increase horsepower, such as piston stretching. I managed to get a tiny i2 to 60 HP, so these can be super efficient.
Did some quick testing, and while the lvl 5 electric engine has a constant torque, the torque of the lvl 5 gas engine scales with its power. Setting the gas engine to the 7th tick (off being 0) the electric still overpowers it, but from the 8th tick onward the gas engine has more torque. This doesn't make the electric engine useless however, the rpm of the gas engine at the 8th tick will make almost any creation completely uncontrollable, so if you need to maximise torque at reasonable speeds the electric engine still reigns supreme.
Definetly make this dyno into a hub or wheel dyno so that you can test piston vehicles. And then see what engines with what variation make the most power.
To make it simple, each rating of density is equal to about 5.35 kg based on the 1smb=0.015625m³ and concrete is 2,400kg/1m³(1 concrete block=7rating of density)
Dynos I real life depends on the dyno, Allison has a dyno that can simulate up to 30 degrees of climb and they have a room that can simulate weather so they can test they can simulate trucks on cold mountains, but dynos for cars use electric motors for resistance basically like an alienator and uses sensors and software to calculate torque and power per rpm and gear then you can tune for power and torque from there
I doubt that, more vertical motion would just move the point of maximum torque (piston line tangent to the circle of the crankshaft) further down. The average angle will be different and might be closer to 90 degrees with longer stroke which would in theory give the engine smoother power output, but it could also be the opposite and spend more time at a greater mechanical disadvantage. I will try to test it now and will update if I get some results. Okay, I did some testing and this is what I got: when the piston is really long compared to the crankshaft radius, the angle between piston force and crankshaft grows at a constant rate, then decreases at a constant rate. When the piston length is close to the radius of the crankshaft, the angle changes fast when it's far from 90 degrees, then the change speed gets slower as the angle approaches 90 degrees and reaches its slowest change speed at 90 degrees. Theoretically this would mean that when the piston is attached close to the crankshaft it spends more time near the ideal 90 degree angle than when it is attached far from the crankshaft and would provide torque more efficiently, but the maximum torque would be the same regardless of where the piston is attached.
kAN, I have MM idea: Build jumping car, which can shoot explosives downwards. Idea is to jump over wall and shoot target. Good spots for that may be flat ground, canyon and mountain.
Weren't gas and electric engines supposed to be opposite? The gas engine got the high rpm and the electric got torque. In practice it's apparent. I mean, a way to test it is to replace the electric engine with a gas one on that arm test at the start of the vid.
Yeah. It is. I think the guy that mentioned momentum might have a point. I've seen in practice what electric and gas engines can move. It hasn't changed.
@@lucasvisser3864 in reality a Tesla will have a lot more torque than a gas car with the same " hp " but my RC electric motor will have way less torque than my actual gas car 😅🤣
to what i know electric motors have a better pwr and trq curve and are a lot more snappy and responsive but a combustion engine is easier to scale and can overall, with enough time, build up to higher values. im not much of a mechanic though so i might be wrong
Watching forever and didn’t realize I was subscribed. Been really interested in the torque and power videos. I’m curious to see trammel gears vs planetary gears.
Idea you could do is get your discord to make piston engine for you to put on the Dyno and then at the end of it going by what you have learned from what they have done you then make a piston engine to be the highest torque/hp piston engine
So compelling to watch - felt like I was back in school even tho I left 40 yrs ago lol Thanks for the lesson Kan - where do I send the student fee's to? :D
it would be nice if max values stayed on screen. with thruster engines only NM stays on screen. just tested a old V8 i made years ago . start at 50 rpm and at lowest idle 15 rpm it tops at 2 hp and 2100 NM. now thats one strong moped engine XD love the variable ignition. can set any desired rpm to run at XD
The Dyno in real life still uses counter RPM, but since the wheel is spinning against the dyno (which spins at the same rate as the wheel), it takes that into its HP number. For torque, I think it's just a calculation based on how much force it took the wheel to spin the Dyno, etc.
I'm surprised that you didn't run the trammel gear the other way as well to see the doubled HP and half torque. I love that dyno mod. I also love how a challenge video lead to this whole saga of getting a deeper understanding of piston engines. I'm here for it!
@@kANGaming because your pistons have those little arms on them before going to the shaft i assume, you could angle those to change the length the piston goes
@@kANGaming Its the controller bearing you use to offset the "plus", if you decrease that angle, the stroke of the radial will become smaller, decreasing the distance the plus has to move to complete a rotation, its just really funny that the radial had that tech like 6 years ago lol.
Another thing to test is multi-connections. If you power multiple bearings on a single shaft, you multiply power. I'm curious if it cleanly doubles it. Also, how about gear reductions?
My god dude I've got so many engines in this game and this is the perfect opportunity to bench those especially with timing cause my timing system has always been pretty rough. Hopefully I'll have one that outdoes your engines lol
heyo kan! cool testing you are doing! i did something similar a while ago on my channel! i went over some engine types and made a spreadsheet as well! would be interesting to see your interpretation!
Make a lift-powered system that carries heavy blocks upwards with an insane torque difference to generate infinite power by dropping these blocks for power and make it automatic
When applying power to multiple locations using one power source, all of the power is evenly distributed but less overall power is applied. Would this be the same for the gas engine?
As far as I know, the scrap mechanic doesn't do that. That's why doubling the bearing makes things stronger I know there was a mod to make power distribute by the amount of bearings it connects to, but it is outdated now
Before going on holiday I was working on a piston-powered helicopter (August 5th) and these videos would have been really useful just one week earlier 😭
e'yup, 4 blocks = 1 metre (you could like look up vmd* of a material and divide it by 64 to get the mass or "weight" of a block... cuz it's 3D, thus x times y times z, or ^3... kg/m^3 or g/cm^3) *volumetric mass density ( or just density... or mass per unit volume... d = m/v )
If you make another video like this (hope you do) can you try combining two engines, two gas, then maybe an electric and gas combined and see if it doubles with the same types and if it combines the torque numbers of gas and electric? Then a video of you perfecting your piston engine is needed. Wish I had this game, I’d sit here for hours playing around haha
You should try using an engine with gearing to make it have insane torque and test that. I know gearing isn’t exactly easy in this game because there’s not actual gears, but maybe you could get it to work
You should check out (Deniz 567) V6 engine very impressive speed would be curious about the torque on it. I had to copy it from one of his vehicle videos. Not sure it's in the workshop.
What if you connect one engine to multiple dyno's? Like multiple wheels to an engine? Will it split the torque or rpm? And what if one wheel is heavier? Just some questions you can find out..
I have studied and worked with everything you spoke about in this video, but I couldn't understand a thing about what you said. It's good you didn't choose a profession to be a teacher. ;D
What else should we build in Scrap Mechanic?
Build a super yacht ?
Bipedal walker with mechanical steering
Stuff sorry it late in Australia may be Rc cars
Learn how to make "V" piston engines! e.g. V2, V4, V8 etc.
I think you should keep doing these videos about piston engines.
Hey, Kein Anderer here (co-creator of the dyno) and happy to see that you are getting into all our piston community stuff, learning about tools and technology. Also appreciate that you like the dyno this much, means a lot, as it did with everyone else in the community that has liked it so far.
Since you were wondering about how we calculate our units, speed is a given from the modpack meter (degress/second -> divide by 6 -> rpm), torque is applied by a smart engine which is known to create its torque based on Nm (as all units in the game are SI units). Power is then calculated in the standard fashion of multiplying torque and speed and dividing it by the correct factor to get to horsepower. To get all other units, we use standard conversion you would use in real life aswell. All of this has nothing to do with weight or mass btw.
You also showcased that the dyno applies load until it hits 0 rpm, but that doesnt have to be this way. You can actually adjust that speed, which me and ben call "target rpm", to try and match any engine speed you want. We even automated that partially to compensate for bearing flex, as that was an issue in the past. You can adjust that and a lot more stuff with the values below, further explained in the dynos description if youre interested. Feel free to ask me or ben about any of this aswell!
And I think it also makes sense to clear up something about the graphs. With the way we have to dyno engine in scrap mechanic, the graphs are actually inverted compared to what you would expect in real life (peak speed on the left, lowest speed on the right). Knowing this should make the graphs shape make a lot more sense logically.
One thing that sort of confuses me about what you are doing, you know that your "informer" asks us about multiple things? Why not just come to us and let us explain everything properly. I feel like that will make a lot more sense logically or do you have a reason why you wanna learn everything indirectly like this?
Dont get me wrong, I do like seeing you try this out and I am happy that you like it, this part just confuses me.
If you have any more questions regarding the dyno and its functions and maybe how to generally tune engines well and make high performance designs, feel free to ask me. I am also available on discord, your "informer" can bring you to me if you so wish.
Hope to see more content like this in the future.
Gotta say, this is one of the most impressive mods I have seen in a game. Very well done! Do you and your buddy that worked on this have any other projects/mods in other games you guys do?
huh so yall dont use weight? if you wanted to know anyway 1 notch of weight is 5.1339285714285714285714285714286kg to 5.3571428571428571428571428571429kg
@@Naughty_Ram Yeah, ben does quite a few mods like his most recent blueprint editing tool. One of the most useful tools to have and its super code optimized too.
I mainly make piston powered creations, with the exception of the challenge pack youve probably seen already lol. My newest car implementing electronic engine management and automatic timing in vanilla with AWD and torque vectoring. Its called "The Nova".
All units used in the game ate real world units (if you use the scripting api). For example 4 blocks = 1 meter. If i apply a force unings a script this is done in newtons. And obviously this also means weight is measured in grams/kilograms (not entirely sure which as ive used them very little) even though the game doesn't display the exact values.
Edit: after some research i discovered that its probably kg, 1m^3 of concrete weight 2.5 tons, so the modpack readings are relatively accurate.
So then the unit conversions at some point are just arbitrarily chosen to sound about right? Because the game uses it’s completely own units that don’t have any exact real world reference.
Devs confirmes in a dev blod
@@Omlet221I mean, there's no better base than the real world in order to start
@@Omlet221 The units in game have the same relations as in the real world. The devs however have the creative liberty to pick whichever constants they want for the speed of a projectile, force of a thruster, weight of a block or anything else for that matter.
The units are not arbitrary, the constants in the game are. Gravity is 10m*s^-2, not 9.81. That does not change the fact that its a perfectly good assumption/creative liberty for the game.
My statement regarding a cubic meter of concrete only serves to validate my claim that mass is treated as kg internally by the game.
You should create a Multiplayer Monday challenge, with building the best Engine´d car and dynoing it on two of those dynos, so it looks like a real dyno. Then do like a dragrace or something!
I second this
Hey its Ben Bingo! I'm super happy you enjoy the dyno, really appreciate the kinds words, I can also explain some of the questions you had:
The exact torque numbers for the electric engine is 1000Nm (doesn't change) and for the gas engine its 6990Nm (max lvl), the reason you are seeing the dyno go above that is because of the speed of the input going from the normal operating speeds of gas and electric to the target speed makes its quite hard for the PID to react since its process value is the input speed, so it does jump a bit over, but you shouldn't have much of a problem with piston engines as its more of a progressive decrease in rpm. Also, since the dyno is constantly dynoing for max torque, its actually better to use the average torque value, the max is there just in case the engine stalls early or reverses, so you will see a lot less of a blip if you use the average, and if you do see one, the dyno should try to fix itself albeit quite slowly because the current rpm is very close to its target.
On the topic of Newton meters, scrap mechanic actually uses metric for most, if not all of its units, and the x o meter outputs the creations weight in Newtons even though it says mass. The reason you had quite a high amount of Newtons when you tried to manually test is probably just due to weirdness with physics as scrap likes to sometimes freeze bodies if they are moving too slowly or just doing nothing. The smart engine also applies torque in Newton Meters.
About the graph, the graphs X unit is scaled from the peak rpm of the input and its target speed, so when you see the graph plotting constantly all the way to the left, it either means the rpm is increasing or it just isn't changing, its also why you see it sometimes plotting half way down the screen if the dyno hasn't been reset and the input starts getting dyno'd as a much slower speed.
Anyway super thrilled you found this, makes me really look forward to more future piston engine vids, A spreadsheet also sounds very interesting, it will be cool to see what you come up with to improve some of your piston engine skills.
If there are any more questions that I forgot to answer, feel free to let me know!
Do you have a force variant? You know those thruster-less boat designs? I'm curious what the average thrust of them are. More data could also allow us to build better paddle boats.
This looks really cool and useful! I'm definitely going to subscribe to it later!
this is an awesome dyno keep up the good work
@@Laff700 That would be very nice to make, but its its very hard to measure this, and me and kein haven't looked into it much, but if we get more people wanting this, we will more than likely do some research
@@Ben_Bingo It'd be nice if there was a mod which could tell you the force and torque acting on a body with a given trajectory and orientation. That'd make this all simpler. In the meantime though, force being applied to a lever is converted into torque. This could be used to measure force. The angle of the bearing would need to stay close to 0 probably.
Mechanical engineering in games, my favorite!
There are different types of dynos. Rolling road dynos are when you strap the car down and drive it on rollers. The rollers inertia is known, and by measuring how quickly it is accelerated at any given point in time (moment acceleration) allows you to calculate the power and torque since you also know the engine rpm at any given point, and the gear ratio you are in. Then there are hub dynos, which you attach instead of wheels, and i think they have a braking system, i think it is hydraulic, with which you can apply a known and varying amount of "braking load". That allows you to tune the engine at a fixed rpm but with varying load, aswell as a "normal" acceleration run where you get a power curve for the whole rpm range. There are probably more nuances and different types of dynos than this, but this is what i know.
@jakobnorrestam What calculation would need to be done on HP, TQ, gear or RPM? That is what the dyno does all on it's own by water volume, and PSI on the drive unit. Dynos can also run the driveline without the engine in the car or truck running. Might be time to check what you "know", maybe?
That's what I figured was happening with the roller dynos, know how much weight you are spinning and how fast can be used to calculate power required to do so. Cool stuff really.
@@ducewagsWhy so salty?
You've been reading the Dyno graph incorrectly. 0 RPM is on the right side and max RPM is on the left side. You can know that by multiplying the torque times RPM and obtaining power, so if torque is constant, the power increases linearly, and if you see the Dyno graph, you can see that it doesn't happens UNLESS you look it from right to left
The tremmel gear is really close perfect and not having any losses. I was expecting it to double the torque, but have a lot less HP because of the friction, but it stayed almost the same
Yeah, 2022 Nm of torque instead of 2046, that's only 1.2% loss to friction.
@@Pystro sometimes the readings are inaccurate because it goes over the required torque then it doesnt come back down. if you reduced the "count speed" setting, you would have much more accurate readings. its closer than 1.2% i believe.
I just want to say that I am loving these videos recently. Both the piston engine stuff and the robot arm. These more technical style videos are so interesting.
*Re: How dynos work IRL.*
There are a few kinds, depending on what their range is. Some use viscous couplings with variable amount of fluid (cylinder spinning in a stationery cup; more fluid- more load). Some are just a pump what circulates a liquid. Power is derived from pressure and flow of said liquid and load is applied by closing a valve to restrict flow. In a way you can derive torque/power of a motor just by varying its speed. Rev a flywheel from let's say 1000rpm to 1500 and time it. Knowing mass of the entire rotating assembly you can calculate acceleration, and from there power.
Scrap mechanic is so much fun, I started playing it and now uploading it to RUclips because of you.
I remember when I first started playing it I now have around 5500 something hours in SM. I might have played it a little too much lol
@@chonky1081just a little
That’s the amount of hours I got on multiple games combined
IRL there are broadly two types of dynos: Inertial and absorber. Inertial dynos time how long it takes to spin up an object of known rotational inertia from one RPM to another. Faster spin up = more power. They are incapable of measuring power at a constant RPM. But they tend to be the lowest cost way of testing an entire vehicle power output. Absorber dynos absorb the mechanical power developed by an engine and turn it into heat. They are usually equipped with a lever arm and load cell to measure torque and an encoder to measure RPM. They then calculate resulting horse power. Common absorption methods are water brake, eddy current, and induction. Water brake use the engine to push water through a restriction, heating the water. They are less expensive and have the advantage of the high specific heat of water being able to absorb lots of power. They can be hard to control. Eddy current usually rotate a metal disc through a magnetic field. Control is easier, but cooling harder. Induction use modified AC induction electric motors. They have the advantage of being able to spin the engine under test to measure parameters which can't be measured by other dynos, such as pumping losses. But they generally have lower RPM limits, are more expensive, and have the most rotational inertia, and so can deliver different results based on how fast the RPM changes during the test. There are arguments ad nauseum and ad astra about which type is "best." But it is important to remember they are engineering test devices which have different properties, including cost, which make them more or less suitable for different applications. And their results must always be confirmed by real world testing.
From what I understand, the torque is a constant in scrap mechanic for engines. So when you slow down the engine that amount of torque is divided over a smaller area. So yeah when holding the block is wasn’t going to affect anything because it wasn’t moving, but if there had been movement you get more torque per amount turn of wheel with slower engine speeds, which is why you saw a difference in toque with changing the engine speeds on the dyno and not the block of weight.
people like you got me into mechanical engineering and now its a long lasting hobby of mine
i feel like more than just me cought a passion from this channel and for that thanks a lot❤
As a service tech at an ag equipment dealer, i use a pto dyno pretty regularly. It essentially uses a large brake similar to what's on a semi. When force is applied to the brake, a scale measures how much force is being transferred. You can manually adjust how tight the brake is. It is very different than one you'd use for a car from what i understand
2:05 right goes for chainrings with proper timing
I would love to watch you test more with the dyno. Take us on a journey of optimizing a couple of your piston engines since you can now reliably test their performance without having to guess
tried it on one of mine egines, was a v-12 piston engine i made a while ago. after replacing the old pistons with the max upgraded pistons and making a new timing system it produced an avarage of a bit more then 7700 nm.
one thing I don't think people realize with the gas engine is they have a kind of open differential in them. If you have one wheel on the ground and one in the air all the power goes to the wheel in the air. If you hooked up an engine per wheel you'd unlock a fair bit of potential. I never did it cuz I played survival, and the cost of a second engine exceeded the benefit of the increased traction.
Interesting observation
I'm not sure how game calculates if multiple bearings are attached to one gas engine, is it that every bearing is like small independent gas engine, or is the power really distributed with open differential?
Simulating an open diff. is more complex, so I think that each bearing acts as independent gas engine
Which means that if one wheel is off the ground, that bearing is easy to rotate so it speeds up, while wheel on ground is under double load so gas engine cannot accelerate it
It has been a while since I played, so many things could change
@jakubpollak2067 I dont think your idea makes sense. In my observation the contacted wheels almost all power. Itd be easy enough to test if i had it installed.
Also an open diff is super easy to simulate. The power a wheel gets is inversely proportional to the amount of grip that wheel has. So the wheel that has 0% of the traction has 100% of the power. Its pretty linear.
In the real world theres some minimum power that all drive wheels recieve due to friction and other complications, but its usually functionally the same as the mathematical model
so from the 3 seconds of research i did and a decent understanding from seeing them work in real life, it seems a real dyno works by basically using an electric motor and absorbing it in some way and it uses that electrical data to produce a torque reading. its kinda cool to look into bc its basically magic lol
I like it when you talk nerdy about a video game. Makes me warm and fuzzy. 😂
I love the very in depth and scientific explanations
I just created my first 4 piston engine and cranked 3000 torque at 130rpm. It was easy, no tutorials, no learning, pure engineering skills
11:00
Yes, friction based measurements are one type. Simply
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One way to measure power of engine, is to attach the engine to giant electric motor
(It has to be more powerful that engine you are testing)
Motor will rotate at 500 rpm, and torque meter will check the torque.
Then the electric motor will go 600 rpm, measure torque
This will repeat until measured torque will be negative (motor rotating engine, because engine cannot keep up)
Now you have table of measurements, because you know exactly the rpm and you measured torque, so you can calculate power and draw graph
This is how you measure the engine vs giant motor, or small electric motor vs giant motor
> This measurement will tell you about raw power the engine makes
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You could also measure power by accelerating the known mass
For example car on dyno will try to rotate heavy flywheel from idle to max rpm
You can plot rpm vs time and calculate angular acceleration of flywheel. If you know it's mass you can calculate inertia.
Acceleration is based on force divided by inertia and acceleration depends on torque directly. Then again, you take the torque, rpm and get power.
> This measurement will tell you about power the engine transfers to road (so gearbox, tires, bearing loss included)
pistons should be set 3, use a sensor wheel and just do an i4, with proper timing you should easily break 100hp
theres also other things you can do to increase horsepower, such as piston stretching. I managed to get a tiny i2 to 60 HP, so these can be super efficient.
yeah i know my stuff, just dont think kan is at the point of piston stretching
@@_miobrot_603
Did some quick testing, and while the lvl 5 electric engine has a constant torque, the torque of the lvl 5 gas engine scales with its power. Setting the gas engine to the 7th tick (off being 0) the electric still overpowers it, but from the 8th tick onward the gas engine has more torque. This doesn't make the electric engine useless however, the rpm of the gas engine at the 8th tick will make almost any creation completely uncontrollable, so if you need to maximise torque at reasonable speeds the electric engine still reigns supreme.
Definetly make this dyno into a hub or wheel dyno so that you can test piston vehicles. And then see what engines with what variation make the most power.
To make it simple, each rating of density is equal to about 5.35 kg based on the 1smb=0.015625m³ and concrete is 2,400kg/1m³(1 concrete block=7rating of density)
Dynos I real life depends on the dyno, Allison has a dyno that can simulate up to 30 degrees of climb and they have a room that can simulate weather so they can test they can simulate trucks on cold mountains, but dynos for cars use electric motors for resistance basically like an alienator and uses sensors and software to calculate torque and power per rpm and gear then you can tune for power and torque from there
This is actually epic
I wonder if a longer stroke would produce more power or torque by give the piston a more vertical motion
I doubt that, more vertical motion would just move the point of maximum torque (piston line tangent to the circle of the crankshaft) further down. The average angle will be different and might be closer to 90 degrees with longer stroke which would in theory give the engine smoother power output, but it could also be the opposite and spend more time at a greater mechanical disadvantage. I will try to test it now and will update if I get some results.
Okay, I did some testing and this is what I got: when the piston is really long compared to the crankshaft radius, the angle between piston force and crankshaft grows at a constant rate, then decreases at a constant rate. When the piston length is close to the radius of the crankshaft, the angle changes fast when it's far from 90 degrees, then the change speed gets slower as the angle approaches 90 degrees and reaches its slowest change speed at 90 degrees. Theoretically this would mean that when the piston is attached close to the crankshaft it spends more time near the ideal 90 degree angle than when it is attached far from the crankshaft and would provide torque more efficiently, but the maximum torque would be the same regardless of where the piston is attached.
imagine disliking this bro this guy is impressive of how he makes creations
nothing against him but there was nothing was impressive in this video
@@loz4830 yeah but im dumb as hell so it impressed me
This video was cool
kAN, I have MM idea:
Build jumping car, which can shoot explosives downwards. Idea is to jump over wall and shoot target. Good spots for that may be flat ground, canyon and mountain.
Weren't gas and electric engines supposed to be opposite? The gas engine got the high rpm and the electric got torque. In practice it's apparent. I mean, a way to test it is to replace the electric engine with a gas one on that arm test at the start of the vid.
I think the momentum on the gas engine helped a bit 😅😂
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Could've sworn the electric engine was supposed to have more torque.
Yeah. It is. I think the guy that mentioned momentum might have a point. I've seen in practice what electric and gas engines can move. It hasn't changed.
@@lucasvisser3864 in reality a Tesla will have a lot more torque than a gas car with the same " hp " but my RC electric motor will have way less torque than my actual gas car 😅🤣
to what i know electric motors have a better pwr and trq curve and are a lot more snappy and responsive but a combustion engine is easier to scale and can overall, with enough time, build up to higher values. im not much of a mechanic though so i might be wrong
Watching forever and didn’t realize I was subscribed. Been really interested in the torque and power videos. I’m curious to see trammel gears vs planetary gears.
Dude this is amazing to do in a game
I already know this is gonna be a good video
Idea you could do is get your discord to make piston engine for you to put on the Dyno and then at the end of it going by what you have learned from what they have done you then make a piston engine to be the highest torque/hp piston engine
You just explained torque to me better than anyone else ever has
I would really like to see one of the crazy glitch weld piston engines to see how strong they can be!
finally, a piston experimentation video by one of the best youtubers!!1!!111
Very Cool!
An engine with larger cylinders and a longer piston travel will make more torque. U can try 2 or 3 pistons for 1 cylinder.
kan gaming presents, scrap machanic dyno masters.
I remember when you used to do stormworks, This scrap mechanic stuff is getting pretty similar now.
Love the new kANeducation channel. Would show my kids 10/10.
This is sick...
You got some realy expensice gears there
You should start some scrap mechanic survival modded with custom gamemodes!
So compelling to watch - felt like I was back in school even tho I left 40 yrs ago lol Thanks for the lesson Kan - where do I send the student fee's to? :D
should make a workshop challenge you test others piston engines like a tournament
I really love this series!! more technical nerd stuff pls :>
He used the word "Torque" today more than my physics teacher in school. And I showed my teacher a bent drivetrain to show him what real torque is😂
Since they give you a density value -- you could use M=V/D (D=density, V=volume, M=mass).
it would be nice if max values stayed on screen. with thruster engines only NM stays on screen.
just tested a old V8 i made years ago . start at 50 rpm and at lowest idle 15 rpm it tops at 2 hp and 2100 NM. now thats one strong moped engine XD
love the variable ignition. can set any desired rpm to run at XD
0:50 When youre drunk driving a car, horsepower is how hard you hit the wall and torque is how far you go through it.
The Dyno in real life still uses counter RPM, but since the wheel is spinning against the dyno (which spins at the same rate as the wheel), it takes that into its HP number. For torque, I think it's just a calculation based on how much force it took the wheel to spin the Dyno, etc.
I'm surprised that you didn't run the trammel gear the other way as well to see the doubled HP and half torque.
I love that dyno mod. I also love how a challenge video lead to this whole saga of getting a deeper understanding of piston engines. I'm here for it!
What about a seat steering drive? If you hook a seat to the bearings and steer them? We also want to see wedge drive, and suspension glitch turning.
14hp is crazy 💀
Also did u know ur radial was the first piston engine with adjustable stroke size?
That's what someone told me as well but I don't really know what you mean by adjustable stroke size.
The ability to change the diameter of the crankshaft to increase rpm or increase torque
@@Ripsaw711 yes
@@kANGaming because your pistons have those little arms on them before going to the shaft i assume, you could angle those to change the length the piston goes
@@kANGaming Its the controller bearing you use to offset the "plus", if you decrease that angle, the stroke of the radial will become smaller, decreasing the distance the plus has to move to complete a rotation, its just really funny that the radial had that tech like 6 years ago lol.
Definitely try a rocket powered wheel on there at max power so we can see the rockets power!!
Another thing to test is multi-connections. If you power multiple bearings on a single shaft, you multiply power. I'm curious if it cleanly doubles it. Also, how about gear reductions?
Real dynos (at least the ones I"ve used) calculate torque through hp or through sensors on the wheels that you'd park the car on.
I recently got to see an R28 engine in person, i would love to see it make in scrap mechanic.
8:01 the torque is the same you forgot to switch the torque from max torque, since it slowing down does increase the torque
You should try putting a suspension glitch on the dyno
YES!!!!
Run your Demon Engine.The BIG Radial!
Irl dinos work very similar to this where it applies a load to the wheels of the car or the end of the crankshaft and it's just a big brake
I'm gonna have to start testing my piston engines
Feels weird being this early
Ikr
Yeah, a Kan video with 600 views? What?
YEAH! SCIENCE!
i love this type of content
You did this cause of your epsiode with Hyce and your challenge with the big wheel
My god dude I've got so many engines in this game and this is the perfect opportunity to bench those especially with timing cause my timing system has always been pretty rough. Hopefully I'll have one that outdoes your engines lol
Update: I made a 110hp electromagnet motor and it has way too much torque
what about thruster power? like how you make choppers with 4 thrusters to spin the blades? what kind of numbers does that put out?
I wish we were getting a spreadsheet for these results edited into the video as we went because these numbers are like soup and my brain is a fork
heyo kan! cool testing you are doing! i did something similar a while ago on my channel! i went over some engine types and made a spreadsheet as well! would be interesting to see your interpretation!
should try the explosive engine on the dyno
Something you need to say is that electric motors have a constant torque output, in the real world with piston engines torque isnt constant
Make a lift-powered system that carries heavy blocks upwards with an insane torque difference to generate infinite power by dropping these blocks for power and make it automatic
To dumb it down Torque is pulling power or launch power hp is mostly your acceleration.
Try an impact driver
Hey Kan, you could try doing some valvegear on this thing!
This resurgence in piston engine stuff is getting me excited, I need more kANtent!
I just decided to click on one of your vids last time i was watching your videos you had 150k subs.
When applying power to multiple locations using one power source, all of the power is evenly distributed but less overall power is applied. Would this be the same for the gas engine?
As far as I know, the scrap mechanic doesn't do that. That's why doubling the bearing makes things stronger
I know there was a mod to make power distribute by the amount of bearings it connects to, but it is outdated now
Before going on holiday I was working on a piston-powered helicopter (August 5th) and these videos would have been really useful just one week earlier 😭
e'yup, 4 blocks = 1 metre (you could like look up vmd* of a material and divide it by 64 to get the mass or "weight" of a block... cuz it's 3D, thus x times y times z, or ^3... kg/m^3 or g/cm^3)
*volumetric mass density ( or just density... or mass per unit volume... d = m/v )
dyno = dynamometer (oooh!)
Thats what i Always needed
I think the reason the gas emgine has to be SO POWERFUL is because the lack of a differential to help with an gear reduction
If you make another video like this (hope you do) can you try combining two engines, two gas, then maybe an electric and gas combined and see if it doubles with the same types and if it combines the torque numbers of gas and electric? Then a video of you perfecting your piston engine is needed. Wish I had this game, I’d sit here for hours playing around haha
And a video with gear ratios/ transmissions added to the engines/motors
I built a 16 piston engine in an inline configuration. I can push a 16 by 16 tier 3 concrete pillar that is a quartar the height of the sky box
You should try using an engine with gearing to make it have insane torque and test that. I know gearing isn’t exactly easy in this game because there’s not actual gears, but maybe you could get it to work
Oh you kinda did that lol
You should check out (Deniz 567) V6 engine very impressive speed would be curious about the torque on it. I had to copy it from one of his vehicle videos. Not sure it's in the workshop.
What if you connect one engine to multiple dyno's? Like multiple wheels to an engine? Will it split the torque or rpm? And what if one wheel is heavier? Just some questions you can find out..
I love this cus in multiplayer Monday they always say eLeCTriC engine has more torque
I have studied and worked with everything you spoke about in this video, but I couldn't understand a thing about what you said. It's good you didn't choose a profession to be a teacher. ;D