I think there is a mistake at 5:00, when you say that the kurnoth hunters cannot shoot the flamers in the wood due to obscuring, because flamers can fly
@@_Fabien_B I believe the at the same timestamp that the part you mention of combat range to the edge of the terrain is a 3.0 rule not a 4.0 rule. Core rules has nothing about it.
@@paulsr.1090 "Ignore parts of the terrain feature within the attacking unit’s combat range for the purposes of determining if the target is behind that terrain feature." TERRAIN 1.1 (4.0 Advanced Rules)
@@_Fabien_B This is for being behind terrain not for being wholly on. It's also kind of poorly written for the behind part. Would make more sense to get the cover being within combat range of terrain but that's more on the gw rules writing problem side.
Yea I think that as long as the base is not visible they should have cover/obscuring. I feel like I'm being punished for having spears this edition when they don't even have the benefit of increased combat range any more since everything is 3" range
Thanks for the clarification! Had a game where someone was adamant that visibile meant shootable even if there was obscuring terrain. I argued that if that was the case then obscuring would make no sense for being on the terrain since i cant think of any terrain where you would be on it and not "visible". He then argued that obscuring was also checked in 3 dimensions so because the top of my non-fly monster poked over the top of some obscuring terrain his archers on the ground could shoot up at it and again argued that other archers could shoot at my wizard through a pencil hole gap in a different piece of obscruing terrain because he was technically visible through that tiny hole
Thanks for the informative video! (ruleswise I find both that fly does not go both ways and that visibility goes to the lance in that case to be a bit dumb =P)
It depends if the ruins are just walls or if they come on a template: for the former you can't be wholly on and for the latter wholly on is based on the template
can you always be ON top of a obscurring terrain feature? is it always possible? or if the terrain piece that represents an obscurring terrain lets you not physiccaly put minis on then you also cant put them on? Or is this against the rules? do you always need to have a terrain piece that represents obscurring terrain to be able to put minis on.
In the flamers examples, they can’t shoot if each model is in combat range of the terrein, is still model by model, or you just need one model less then 3” far and all unit shoot?
Awakened Wyldwood, Overgrown Wilderness (Passive) Effect: Enemy units can be targeted by shooting attacks made by friendly Sylvaneth units even if they are behind or wholly on this terrain feature (this is an exception to Terrain, 1.2). So basically Sylvaneth ignores obscuring for the AWW but the opponent can't. Cover would still apply for Sylvaneth attacks though.
Question, if your own models or a manifestation blocks visibility to a enemy unit does that mean I cant target it? Exempel being me putting a range unit behind my melee infantry
If your shooting unit physically can't see the enemy unit, then yes you can't target it indeed, doesn't matter if what's blocking visibility is a friendly unit, a manifestation or a terrain piece. But don't forget it's True Line of Sight, between any point of the models, so if you can see from the end of the bow, or between the legs of the melee unit, or any point really, then you have visibility. It's quite rare that other units fully block visibility unless it's something massive like a great unclean one that doesn't have any gap at the bottom of the model.
For Visibility, you ignore the models in the attacking unit, but you don't ignore other units, whether they are friendly or enemy to determine the line of sight. It's rare that other units block visibility considering True Line of Sight but it can happen with a Great Unclean One for instance
Still wish they’d do away with TLOS. I hate that I can have a cool conversion idea but get banned from events for modeling for advantage. Just use a volume determined by the base. Especially in AoS where there’s no giant vehicles to worry about.
No event really cares, it's very rare that line of sight issues occur and if it's the case, just rule against the conversion and that's it. That shouldn't prevent you from doing cool conversions: tournaments are full of them and they're amazing :)
Do you know that flamers have fly? So your example with kurnoth not being able to shoot flamers in obscuring terrain... Bah il est pas très judicieux... Et je crois qu'il est faux....
Are we about to see short tiny lying down models now the visibility of models rather than just the base is being used? That lance/spear example seems kind of a dick move. Those wardens were behind!
@@_Fabien_B thanks for the reply. As someone who hasn’t played much since 7th and 8th fantasy. And now getting back to the game with my 10 year old, it’s great to see videos like this and the time and effort the team are putting into, what is easily the best AOS channel and entertaining to watch all the way through battle reports.
the first explanation is wrong. If one model from a unit can see any model in the other unit the whole unit is visible to that unit. Check 6.0 Visibility first paragraph halfway down.
A unit is indeed visible from another unit if one model is visible from 1 model. However, for attacks each model needs visibility and model's visibility is defined as follow: " If any part of another model can be seen by an observing model, both the target model and its unit are visible to that observing model." Cheers
@@SquishyFishiesNo, if any model in the friendly unit can see the enemy unit, then the enemy unit is visible to the friendly unit, not to every model in that unit. For shooting each model needs visibility (see my last comment), so models that can't see because they are behind a wall couldn't shoot. The way they wrote it can be confusing but don't mix up unit visibility and model visibility
I think there is a mistake at 5:00, when you say that the kurnoth hunters cannot shoot the flamers in the wood due to obscuring, because flamers can fly
You're right, I didn't know that they have FLY, my bad
@@_Fabien_B I believe the at the same timestamp that the part you mention of combat range to the edge of the terrain is a 3.0 rule not a 4.0 rule. Core rules has nothing about it.
@@paulsr.1090 "Ignore parts of the terrain feature within the attacking unit’s combat range for the purposes of determining if the target is behind that terrain feature." TERRAIN 1.1 (4.0 Advanced Rules)
@_Fabien_B wouldn't this apply the any part of the terrain not just the edge? Or is the edge specifically important?
@@_Fabien_B This is for being behind terrain not for being wholly on.
It's also kind of poorly written for the behind part. Would make more sense to get the cover being within combat range of terrain but that's more on the gw rules writing problem side.
Super nice video, I finally got how it works, the examples are really well made. On the rules: The lance been targetable is just stupid..
The charge into cover is kind of crazy. I honestly haven’t ever thought of a model in melee getting that benefit
Great video that has really helped clear up any doubts I had after reading some of those vision/terrain rules.
Fabian! This video is great. You are doing a huge service to the community with rules clarification and tactics videos like this!
Love all the rules clarification! Really helpful
I was just thinking and asking about this!
Really helpful breakdown, would love to see am order of events one, when abilities proc if both players have abilities at the same time. Cheers!
Great explanations and super helpful video!
Great explanation. I will still play with line of sight that works from base to base though. GW’s rule is still just silly. Spears with eyes? Pah!
I personally hate the rule for cover. You can have 99% of your unit in cover, but if your toenail sticks out they don't benefit from any cover.
Yes makes no sense. This actually is cover… having large parts of your body in cover…
Yeah this is the one holy cow rule they really should change.
Yea I think that as long as the base is not visible they should have cover/obscuring. I feel like I'm being punished for having spears this edition when they don't even have the benefit of increased combat range any more since everything is 3" range
Should just be closer to 40k rules. If any part of the unit is obscured by terrain, you have cover.
LOS rules need an FAQ, the 2 examples on the same page directly contradict the rules as written.
Very well presented, thank you
Much appreviate the TTS examples
Thanks for the clarification! Had a game where someone was adamant that visibile meant shootable even if there was obscuring terrain. I argued that if that was the case then obscuring would make no sense for being on the terrain since i cant think of any terrain where you would be on it and not "visible". He then argued that obscuring was also checked in 3 dimensions so because the top of my non-fly monster poked over the top of some obscuring terrain his archers on the ground could shoot up at it and again argued that other archers could shoot at my wizard through a pencil hole gap in a different piece of obscruing terrain because he was technically visible through that tiny hole
Tell him to watch that video next time ;)
why are the terrain rules so wonky and unintuitive?
Thanks for the informative video! (ruleswise I find both that fly does not go both ways and that visibility goes to the lance in that case to be a bit dumb =P)
Which 3D visualisation tool doees-he used for this video ?
How does determining wholly within for ruins work? Are we supposed to use a footprint?
It depends if the ruins are just walls or if they come on a template: for the former you can't be wholly on and for the latter wholly on is based on the template
can you always be ON top of a obscurring terrain feature? is it always possible? or if the terrain piece that represents an obscurring terrain lets you not physiccaly put minis on then you also cant put them on? Or is this against the rules? do you always need to have a terrain piece that represents obscurring terrain to be able to put minis on.
In the flamers examples, they can’t shoot if each model is in combat range of the terrein, is still model by model, or you just need one model less then 3” far and all unit shoot?
Just 1 model needs to be within 3", it's unit to unit for obscuring
How does this apply to wildwoods for Sylvaneth?
Awakened Wyldwood, Overgrown Wilderness (Passive)
Effect: Enemy units can be targeted by shooting attacks made by friendly Sylvaneth units even if they are behind or wholly on this terrain feature (this is an exception to Terrain, 1.2).
So basically Sylvaneth ignores obscuring for the AWW but the opponent can't. Cover would still apply for Sylvaneth attacks though.
Do intervening units grant cover?
Question, why would being wholly on terrain matter when it looks like all of the GHB terrain set ups use exclusively terrain with unstable?
Because you can stand on unstable terrain, just not on the parts that are more than 1" tall
Question, if your own models or a manifestation blocks visibility to a enemy unit does that mean I cant target it? Exempel being me putting a range unit behind my melee infantry
If your shooting unit physically can't see the enemy unit, then yes you can't target it indeed, doesn't matter if what's blocking visibility is a friendly unit, a manifestation or a terrain piece.
But don't forget it's True Line of Sight, between any point of the models, so if you can see from the end of the bow, or between the legs of the melee unit, or any point really, then you have visibility.
It's quite rare that other units fully block visibility unless it's something massive like a great unclean one that doesn't have any gap at the bottom of the model.
So if one of your friendly units is in front of the your shooting unit the visibility rules still
Apply?
For Visibility, you ignore the models in the attacking unit, but you don't ignore other units, whether they are friendly or enemy to determine the line of sight.
It's rare that other units block visibility considering True Line of Sight but it can happen with a Great Unclean One for instance
Still wish they’d do away with TLOS. I hate that I can have a cool conversion idea but get banned from events for modeling for advantage. Just use a volume determined by the base. Especially in AoS where there’s no giant vehicles to worry about.
No event really cares, it's very rare that line of sight issues occur and if it's the case, just rule against the conversion and that's it. That shouldn't prevent you from doing cool conversions: tournaments are full of them and they're amazing :)
Do you know that flamers have fly?
So your example with kurnoth not being able to shoot flamers in obscuring terrain... Bah il est pas très judicieux... Et je crois qu'il est faux....
Are we about to see short tiny lying down models now the visibility of models rather than just the base is being used? That lance/spear example seems kind of a dick move. Those wardens were behind!
It's not new though, it always worked like this. It's not perfect but alternatives aren't much better unfortunately: each system has pros and cons.
@@_Fabien_B thanks for the reply. As someone who hasn’t played much since 7th and 8th fantasy. And now getting back to the game with my 10 year old, it’s great to see videos like this and the time and effort the team are putting into, what is easily the best AOS channel and entertaining to watch all the way through battle reports.
the first explanation is wrong. If one model from a unit can see any model in the other unit the whole unit is visible to that unit. Check 6.0 Visibility first paragraph halfway down.
A unit is indeed visible from another unit if one model is visible from 1 model.
However, for attacks each model needs visibility and model's visibility is defined as follow:
" If any part of another model can be seen by an observing model, both the target model and its unit are visible to that observing model."
Cheers
@@_Fabien_B So is it if any model in the unit can see the enemy unit they can all shoot regardless of them being behind a wall ?
@@SquishyFishiesNo, if any model in the friendly unit can see the enemy unit, then the enemy unit is visible to the friendly unit, not to every model in that unit.
For shooting each model needs visibility (see my last comment), so models that can't see because they are behind a wall couldn't shoot.
The way they wrote it can be confusing but don't mix up unit visibility and model visibility
@@_Fabien_B thank you for explanation I'm glad it works this way
It still makes flat obscuring terrain near useless. Terrain rules are still bad in this game 10 yrs later from its inception
Is he French?
Oui!
@@SeasonofWar incroyable 🤩
If its a fabien vid i know im going to learn alot in a short time