I'm a retired air traffic controller. Because of THIS ACCIDENT I started asking detailed questions concerning fuel status ANY TIME an aircraft I was holding and/delay vectoring mentioned the word FUEL!
Do/or have pilots misrepresented their fuel situation to ATC while in a holding pattern because they are frustrated about getting in? Or can ATC even know the veracity of such a statement from a pilot?
@@timothycook2917 I had a F-14 pilot tell me he only had 45 mins of fuel. I asked him "Is that til bingo or flameout?" When he refused to answer me I knew I had called his bluff. As for an airliner, I'm sure it has happened but I don't think it ever happened to me.
@@SteveH98264- Misleading a controller about ANYTHING should be a serious offense. I know that fighter pilots are always in short supply but did the F-14 pilot get grounded for a week or something like that?
@@algrayson8965 I never said a thing to anyone. Since he landed safely and didn't bitch about being delayed no one ever listened to the tapes. So no, nothing happened to the pilot.
JFK ATC: "and then turn you back on for the approach. Is that fine for you and your fuel?" AV 52 F/O: "I guess so." One does not "guess so" when one is flying a jet with nearly 150 passengers on board.
SportsFreak I am Black and proud , and in no way shape or form a sellout or Uncle Tom... There was no reason to use the word Nigga here !!!!! Even if you are Black yourself and you think its a slang to take out the " er " and just use a " A ' . It is Offensive. A professional in aviation like myself for the past 21 years have been trying to show Caucasians that all black people are not dumb, but i can get real Gangsta ignorant if you want me too. Please Think About that when you visit a channel like this that is about a serious profession, Even if it is examining the cause and effects of some dumb ass decisions like the ones done in this video, like not declaring a emergency for low Fuel. Thanks
Respect and don't blame Avianca about what the airline responded. Its pilot error and don't blame the captain he left behind a wife and 2 young daughters. And for Colombia this accident was devastating because most of the passengers dead were from Colombia. So don't blame those errors because everyone can commit them even do they have lives on risk.
I started watching your channel seven months ago, where I didn't know anything about aerospace or aircrafts. Now you're the main reason why I got accepted to Kingston university (UK) to study Aerospace engineering. Thank you very much for changing my life. I learnt a lot from your channel Love from Jordan ( currently living in the UK)
These videos are so well done, you watch for 15 minutes with just text, graphics and the sound of engines in nearly pitch blackness and the words 'I guess so' hit you straight in the gut. No need for flashy cinematics or badly acted reconstructions, these videos tell you how these tragedies unfolded in the most stark and real way possible whilst remaining respectful to the fact they involve the deaths of real people. Top man Allec.
Rangda Rangda Exactly! I’m addicted after only watching a few of these videos, and now I watch at least one every single day. When I heard the FO say “I guess so” I knew right then the plane was not going to make it. This plane was put in too many (3) holding patterns because of traffic and the FO right then should’ve declared a low fuel emergency. Other traffic in front of the line would just have to clear the skies in holding patterns, but the FO failed to use the word emergency, instead he used the word priority. Priority to ATC does not equal emergency, although the ATC should’ve asked for clarification.
Two things: 1. Because the plane ran out of fuel, many passengers survived because there was no catastrophic fire when the plane crashed. 2. Investigators also determined that more passengers could have survived the crash if the seat anchors were better designed. Entire rows of seats broke free from the cabin floor upon impact and caused a domino effect, crushing and killing other passengers. As a result of this crash, passenger seats are now anchored by redesigned, stronger anchors.
@@GiordanDiodato- This crash was back before airline deregulation cut profit margins razor thin. The old established airlines became under severe financial stress with underfunded retirement pensions that new airlines didn't have after dereg.
The Captain was very insistant in declaring an emergency (in hindsight he was spot on) yet the FO screwed them all over. The fuel comments should have had ATC more concerned too
This one brought me literally to tears. WHAT THE HELL, man? Sure, more forceful language was called for. But what about the word "fuel" didn't raise the proper concern at ATC?
This may be the most agonizing of all the major air disasters. Only the Tenerife disaster comes close. The constant delays, the indecision, the miscommunication, the terrible luck. Brutal.
This F/O was an idiot. The captain insisted on declaring an emergency and the first officer was reluctant to use the word in English. This was not a language barrier issue. The first officer wanted to be too polite and humble. He was acting like he didn't want to be a burden to ATC, agreeing with his requests. He should have owned his position and responsibility and spoken adamantly. This was lack of training. And there's a reason why no pilot who can't speak English should be allowed to fly international routes.
lumgs2009 Negative. Declaring an emergency requirs an FAA investigation and possibly reflects poorly on the captain in the eyes on his company. The dumb 28 year old F/O who was the pilot in charge of that flight, just didn't want to get in trouble and gambled everyones lives.
Correct, the FO was most at fault. They could have saved the plane, even on the 2nd MA. IF they would have declared a fuel emergency, ATC would have prioritized them in the traffic pattern, not fly them out 15 miles past the outer marker. The ATC naysayers need to remember that ATC, at one of the busiest airports in the world, in bad weather, is going to prioritize traffic based on need and REPORTED fuel loads. They don't have time to babysit incompetent pilots that fail to manage their flight. Also, the PIC is just that, and can and should speak up in that situation.
@@ThatGuy-te9wh FO definitely a fucktard. Captain was flying the plane so the FO should have immediately declared a fuel emergency. ATC would have given them 1st priority, a short approach and landing clearance on the runway of their choice. This accident happened because the FO was a fucking pussy. That's what it comes down to
From other videos I understand there are certain terms (Pan Pan Pan? Mayday?) used for emergencies... this crew never communicated proper wording or terms, correct?
That Captain and FO needed to be far more insistent on their situation than they were. Even the engineer could have spoken up and said "We need to land this damn plane right now".
MarshalPoole At a big Class B Airspace airport that should be... it should of had some serious ALSF Cat 3 or 4 with REIL`s ( runway end identifier lights ) strobe lights and that colorful christmas tree light formation at the approach end of a runway, plus the runway lights at full brightness. It must have been so rainy and stormy bad weather that he could not see nothing out the window at his IFR ( Instrument Flight Rules ) landing minimums at the MAF ( Miss Approach Fix ) for him to do a go-around. ILS can only be so accurate to bring your nose gear at the center line of the runway and your main gear tires so many feet above the runway pavement. What about the Radio Altimeter with localiser back taxi feature??? At one point in watching and listening at the first landing attempt, i was contemplating even just Flaring and cut engine power to Idle than risking a go-around with running out of fuel if i was in the pilots shoes. It more than likely would of crashed. A main tire bogey touch down on the runway pavement with just ILS / DME and Radio ALT. What do you Airline Pilots think ?????
They should have been like... Your under arrest for that cocaine.... But..... You nearly died..... So.... Just this once.... Go ahead have a snort.... Then come with me.. A...h...
Pramod Herath , Cultural differences? Emergency to the copilot would be an explosion, hydraulic system failure, electrical system failure, pressurization system failure, etc, not low fuel? Poor training? He did fail to obey the captain's repeated order to declare an emergency. He was probably used to doing whatever he wanted due to the language problems the captain had. Afterall, if the boss cannot understand English than he can get away with saying whatever he wants in English and the boss cannot reprimand him for it.
If you hear, the pilot repeatedly told to the first offiicer to declare an emergency and even asked the first officer for confirmation but the first officer kept saying we're running out of fuel..
They thought they did declare an emergency, but did not use proper terminology. ATC would only recognize terms like "mayday", "pan pan", or declaring an "emergency" straight up. That F/O kept saying "priority", which carries a much greater sense of urgency in some Latin American countries (including Colombia) than it does in the US.
@@Dawnie-bi6qu no what's ridiculous is the pilot never used the word EMERGENCY!! When the ATC said is this heading ok for your fuel it should've been a blatant HELL NO, EMERGENCY we are out! This is 100% on the 1st officer. So sad
I'm not a commercial pilot. But I am a man that has handled emergencies situations many times. This was soo hard to watch and listen to !! This brings it all back.
I agree, that would suck. And for possessing some white powder which shouldn't be illegal in the 1st place. Big brother has to tell us what we can or cannot put in our own bodies. Small government my ass
I love how the captain told the FO to tell the controllers they were having an emergency but he only told them they were running out of fuel and not empty. Truly the height of comprehension.
@@darcyblack8222 *"Running out of fuel" does not tell you anything - you have one hour of fuel left you can tell the control tower "you are running out of fuel";* you have one hour left "you are running out fuel" you have 30% of fuel left you are "running out of fuel", it does not QUANTIFY your situation, however you see "I have a 5 minutes of fuel left" everyone can see your dire situation
Seems to me like “we’re running out of fuel” should be understood as “emergency” when fuel is what keeps the aircraft in the air. Add: The standard phrase of Aviation English should be used!
Yes normally it would but he always qualified by saying we should be good or I guess so which essentially stopped the controller from continuing the interrogation.
Every plane with engines running is "running out of fuel". The question is - how urgently? How imminently? Request "priority" is not the same as "Mayday mayday mayday I am declaring an emergency extremely low on fuel request vectors straight to the final approach!"
@@slehar- Duh. Why do you think I put “running out of fuel” in quotes??? Huh??? Just as in motoring, “running OUT of fuel” means that the remaining fuel may not be sufficient to get to a safe place to park/land. “Running LOW on fuel” means that sufficient fuel remains to get to the next landing/refueling place but no extra to go to the next one past. These are not precision terms.
@@algrayson8965 Here's a precise term: "I am declaring an emergency". No doubt, no ambiguity. Pilots are trained to say it when the situation calls for it.
I love your videos and are weirdly addicted to them. My wife knows the sound of your videos now. She just looked at me and said, "another plane crash?" Hells ya I said. Hells ya.
Pilots need assertiveness training. Say, "No!" to the third goddamn holding pattern, declare a low-fuel emergency, and demand priority clearance to Boston ... and everyone lives.
There's a set of audio clips somewhere where this attitude was demonstrated perfectly, and many people criticised that pilot for "being a drama queen" or something like that. In that clip though, you can hear him mention fuel multiple times beforehand, and it was only after a while he declared emergency and demanded everyone move out of his way. The first thought I had after reading those comments was "damn right he did that, there's no way they can go out like Avianca did".
I was flying in the northeast corridor that day. Avianca should have started a divert when issued the second hold. They overflew a lot of usable airports with better weather conditions. Declaring an emergency is no big deal. If you declare an emergency ATC has to make the sky yours till you have a resolution. 4 engine jets are not easy on fuel down low with flaps out. Sad ending for sure. Another well done video Allec.
Roziah Abu Bakar Avianca had no business flying an airplane to the USA when the Captain didn’t speak or understand English. Only pilots who speak English should be allowed to pilot an airplane to here. The FAA also failed.
@@stvandy1 Pilots should have to speak English at all, at least concerning the communication with ATC, and other pilots. When they don't speak English that good, or sufficient, to have a conversation with native English speakers during a holiday or so, about everyday's life, hobbies and that kind of things, it is not that bad. But it is very important to be able to communicate properly with the ATC, and other people involved! Recently I read that some pilots of Turkish airline companies have a bad reputation of speaking very bad English. But I immediately thought after reading this that this might be a 'fake' thing, as it is not oncommon with Turkish people when they hear something they don't like to hear it is the standard phrase: 'I don't understand'. Sadly I have this experience at my work at almost a daily base... :(
These types of videos are a much better format than the air crash investigation documentaries. Thank you so much for making them. I will sponsor you in the future when my situation improves.
Sat there with heart in mouth, shaking my head - those poor innocent passengers & cabin crew - just cos the dopes in the pointy end won't say "MAYDAY!" - an international distress message.
I was flying for PanAm at that time, Avianca 052 missed the approach in front of us, then crashed behind us. It was a really crappy night, we held at ACY for a long time, Avianca 1000 feet below us in the stack. The Avianca F/O mentioned a possible fuel problem a couple of times, however ATC was swamped, and never picked up on it. They were released from the hold at ACY, then were again delayed at Camrn intersection. We were released from the hold, ending up behind Avianca on the approach, ILS 22L. The weather was right at the bottom, with wind and rain, and wind shear. I was strapped in pretty tight with my five-point harness, but I whacked my head at 1000 feet on the way down the chute. We were just inside the outer marker, when Avianca announced that they were on the go. We landed safely, then heard of the crash from the local controller exiting the runway. The airport would close for app. 45 minutes, giving everyone a chance to reset their switches.
so eerie that you can barely see the runway lights when they are conducting that missed approach. what a decision it must have been to trust the fact that they were too low too soon and conduct the missed approach. knowing they were out of fuel.
Rob Younan , Bad decision. They had to be near the runway. There is a lot of clear area around the approach end. You have no fuel for a missed approach, so you keep going with what control you have. You might crash short. You might land long and have to brake hard. Either way you are on the airfield with rescue much closer.
+David Hoffman I was thinking the same thing, but do you thing the ILS DME and Radio Altimeter could guide him that the nose wheel would be close to the centerline of the runway and use his RA to flare, cut power to idle so softly as possible have the main gear bogey tires touchdown on the runway pavement?
Leon Swan , No. As far as I know no commercial B707 had the systems capabilities to do that. Remember that as you get closer to the runway the needle deflection on the instruments swing wildly. The closer you come to the tip of the "cone" even a few feet of deviation will show as a full needle deflection. The RA would help but the best you can hope for without a Category 3 ILS system for both aircraft and runway is a rough landing somewhere around the runway.
David Hoffman, Again, that's what i thought. I would of have to take that option , as bad as it was. I hope the aircrew did not forget about Newark airport across the Hudson River.
i agree with you of course but we werent there and i dont think the captain had full control of this flight. it looked like the fo was making decisions without always translating them to the captain. i also think that they were trying to minimize the severity of their fuel situation. they wouldnt declare an emergency, at least the fo didnt. they were trying to do things by the book and keep everyone calm. that was why they didnt declare emergency. this is also why they went around. didnt want to crash the plane to short or too long because fo probably thought he'd have one more shot. but why take those risks with 100 people behind you though. there were plenty of times the fo could have said simply "i need to get down now" even those words would have helped. instead he just takes direction from atc and carries on while running out of fuel...
@@partytill10 Pilots SHOULD be able to land with or without ILS. ILS wasn't always available, you know. The old school VOR way is still used exclusively in a lot of smaller airports overseas and every pilot is required to be proficient in executing VOR approaches and landings.
@@Bankable2790 So what? VOR isn't dependent on weather conditions. It's based on position calculation based on radio signals. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-vor-approaches-work/
Previously, I have heard Controllers ask, "Are you declaring an emergency?" The Controllers were cleared of any wrong doing, but experienced Controllers will ask, "Are you declaring an emergency?" I don't blame the Controllers. The F/O should have used the word, "EMERGENCY." Another reason for this crash was that the Autopilot was inoperative and could not lock onto JFK's ILS. Had the Autopilot been working and could have locked onto the ILS, the Captain would have easily found the runway. (Not sure if this is possible on the 707.)
I don't know but isn't ILS separate from autopilot? I think it's connected to radio systems and just gives instrument readout regardless of if autopilot is working.
I think the first bad decision made by the crew was to land at JFK in the first place. You are already low on fuel before you get there. Weather is awful at JFK. At a busy airport like JFK, this has everything in a huge log jam, with 20 other planes in front of you flying a holding pattern as well. Planes missing their approaches(exactly what they did) and having to go around again because of lousy weather further compounds the problem. They could have talked to other pilots trying to land at JFK, get a feeling for the situation, see how long some of them had been in a holding pattern, maybe gotten the hint that things were totally FUBAR and trying to land at JFK on fumes wasn't a good idea. There were so many other airports they could have diverted to, Newark, Teterboro, LaGuiardia(those 3 might have had bad weather/been jammed with traffic diverting from JFK), Baltimore, Dulles, Philly, New Haven when they realized they were low on fuel over Virginia. Why their alternate was Boston makes no sense, I mean look at a map, you are low on fuel and you are flying to an airport farther away. WTF??
Aaron Bays they had enough fuel to make it to Boston they should have called for a weather update before they got near Virginia and put into a hold. They could have diverted to their alternate airport and landed safely.
Kory Looper it was raining with a very low cloud ceiling so visibility was extremely poor that night. You factor in the wind sheer that pushed them below the glide-slope on their first approach causing them to almost crash and not see the runway. There were several planes that missed on their first approach not being able to see the runway.
I mean, they teach you to check weather and alts before getting there since flight school, I don’t know what was going on with this crew and that FO whom seemed to be scared by US ATCs
Does anyone know 2002 Tampa Cessna 172 crash? On January 5, 2002, there is plane is Cessna 172. Its registration is N2371N. That plane is privately owned plane. The 15 years old student pilot named Charlie J. Bishop and his instructor go to N2371N. But somehow, the instructor told him to wait here and he will come back later. Bishop’s instructor left him alone at the plane to perform a preflight inspection. When the instructor left, Bishop went inside the Cessna 172 and closed the door. He started the engine and took off without permission. The Air Traffic Controller (ATC) saw that N2371N took off without asking them for permission to take off. Soon after take off, the air traffic controllers alerted the United States Coast Guard and the MacDill Air Force Base. Despite repeated warnings from the helicopter dispatched by the Coast Guard. The Cessna 172 continued flying somehow. And later N2371N was flying low and crashed into the office building in Tampa, Florida, U.S.The building is Bank of America building. The plane crashed between 28th and 29th floors on the 42-story building. Charlie J. Bishop had died in the crash. As the investigation began, this was the result: the plane was stolen and suicide crash by the 15 years old student pilot named Charlie J. Bishop. (Aircraft theft (stolen) and suicide crash)
gomphrena, what do you mean? The only person in the plane was Charlie J. Bishop. No one die or injure in the tower but the 15 years old student pilot died. Read whole part of my story.
I live just outside of Tampa, and remember this happening. I recall it was on a Sunday, so the building was empty. I always wondered if it really was a suicide, but what other explanation could there have been?
This is really great - so suspenseful using well chosen audio. Kudos to you. So really sad and harrowing that the event occurred because of some cultural deference displayed by the FO.And ending in silence, no fire.
Thank you!! I feel a little better now. Perhaps, I can sleep tonight without bolting upright and yelling what you just typed! If I do awake, I'll be sure to add we are DECLARING an EMERGENCY! Fuels CRITICAL, maximum 2000 feet, 5 mile final!
1. The fact that the FAA settled really pisses me off. 2. This is exactly why the flight crew of any aircraft flying to U S soil should be fluent in English.
I've been on a short haul trip to New York in a smaller jet. We were put into not just one, but two circling holds for some time. I spent the time during those holds nervously wondering about our fuel state. Fortunately, the weather was fine, and we landed safely, albeit late as always.
That was gripping - without knowing the outcome and just by reading what the F/O said it seemed he simply wasn't conveying the gravity of the situaiton to the ground
Exactly right Simon. I admit, first time reading and hearing about this accident, I initially blamed ATC for it cause I was thinking the same thing a lot of people were; “How the hell is “running out of fuel” not considered an emergency, even though the actual term was never used. But after hearing how calm Klotz was when reporting the situation - no wonder ATC didn’t think it was anything urgent. To them, it came across as an impatient pilot wanting to land, and the F/O is acting like he’s reading the goddamn Sunday paper when he says; “running out of fuel.” This whole accident could have been prevented were it not for a variety of factors, but especially not withstanding of which was Klotz’s gambling on their fuel load or risk angering ATC when they were near zero.
people should not allowed to fly an airplane out of their country if they don´t speak appropiate english! how can it be, that a captain is allowed to fly us territory without speaking english!
Sir,you need to be reminded that majority of the US pilots do not either speak or understand other languages,yet they have clearance to travel to another countries ASSUMING that their air traffic controllers speak fluent English!!!
@@Prospectpark79 STFU. This is aviation. We are talking about life and death being dependant on the pilots understanding English. Are you very liberal because your comment screams " I'm an emotional wreck and cnn is real news. I like democrats. Guns have arms and legs and kill people."
Seems that the First Officer was somehow too proud to communicate an emergency. Or that he did not want to raise too much fuss about their problems. If so, those were most displaced sentiments.
The FO ignored direct instructions from the Captain to declare an "Emergency", on 3 separate occasions. However, if the Captain could not even recognise that the FO did NOT say the English word for "Emergency" to ATC, then he should not have been flying an international flight!
I noticed that on many of these videos, pilots are slow to convey something is wrong. The plane could be on fire and burning for two minutes before the pilot announces an emergency or mayday. If the rudder is completely missing, the pilot will only say "We are experiencing control issues."
Steven Ramos ATC constantly asked about their fuel and they downplayed the problem until engines flamed out. I'm sure ATC hears many pilots mention fuel to get to the front of the line and treat those things as such until a pilot makes it clear he actually has a problem with pan pan pan or explicitly mentioning "we have less than 1000 gallons of fuel we'll be declaring an emergency at 500 gallons" etc etc. The more information ATC has the better they can do their job. Maybe five other planes that night also mentioned potential fuel issues on the horizon, who knows...
I would suggest giving the audio recording between the flight and ATC a shot before judging the latter. The flight crew sound *unbelievably* nonchalant about the emergency they were actually in. It's just dumbfounding... ruclips.net/video/ie8kLg9Xvd8/видео.html
I remember this when it happened. Throughout my 30 years of airline flying (1988-2018 November retirement Capt Airbus) we changed procedure and callouts from time to time. About 2 years before retirement there was still confusion from flight decks to ATC on our priority of handling so it became mandatory "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" or "PAN PAN PAN". This made it clear to ATC. In Aug 2011 was the only time I used MAYDAY and I made sure ATC knew our situation was critical. I lost an engine as I rotated out of San Franciso, heavy with 7 hours of fuel and 25,000 lbs+ over max landing weight. We came back and landed safely and called it a day lol. We swallowed 40 seagulls through the right engine destroying 14 of 36 fan blades. Always tell ATC what your problem is, plain English, and what you need from them. "Keep us out of the mountains, over the water, 20 miles final " or whatever you are going to need. We used all of those and the fire dept followed us to the gate because the brakes were cooking hot. Its sad thiis crew ran out of fuel. Certainly, phraseology was a problem. Thanks for posting this video.
I love how thorough these videos are. So amazingly comprehensive. One tiiiiny complaint, though. I know it doesn’t even matter and people are going to give me shit, but there always seem to be a few noticeable spelling errors. It might be good to run the text through a spellcheck, just to confirm. I only say it because of how professional it looks otherwise. Great work as always, my friend.
This is the second one I have seen where the co-pilot requests "Priority" rather than declaring emergency with fuel issues. I don't understand the lack of urgency when looking at serious fuel issues. Why would the captain agree to circle for that long knowing they were low on fuel and may need to do a go around due to weather. I just don't get it.
I remember this VERY WELL because it was the day actress Ava Gardner passed away and I was pregnant and watching the news. After flying from so far and for so long without any issues a jet should NEVER have to run out of fuel and crash. They were in a "holding pattern" for well over 2 hours. One of the most remarkable thing that came out of this tragedy was that 2 DRUG MULES survived the crash. I know 1 was prosecuted. So many died and they lived. I'm so glad that it missed peoples homes.
I don’t understand why a settlement was paid, the fault was with The First Officer’s failure to declare an emergency. Requesting a priority isn’t the same as declaring an emergency.
That plane flew right over my house. It was a warm humid night, very cloudy. It was very low and it rattled all the dishes. I ran outside and could see the lighted windows of the cabin. After a few seconds, I heard him throttle up. I heard it for about 10 seconds and then quiet. About 30 minutes later, in the middle of "Cheers", the news interrupted that a plane had crashed in Oyster Bay.
These videos are addicting. While I am watching them I see and hear planes fly overhead as I am in one of the flight paths to Minneapolis-St. Paul International. In most of these videos you know the outcome but you can't stop watching.
Seems to me that there was (at least) one other airline tragedy where the pilots didn't/wouldn't effectively/accurately communicate how urgent their situation was. Ring any bells with anyone here?
That the spaceship which was being flown by giant ants and it contained Martian embryos..The ants were delivering the Martians to Colorado when lightning struck their spaceship and it crashed killing all 32 ants and 127 Martian embryos ..🐜🐜🐜🐜👸🐜🐜🐜🐸🎃👽👽👽👽
the air france one where the capt and f/o were pushing opposite ways on their joysticks on an airbus for literally minutes till it fell out of the sky. that particular f/o was a lot dumber even than this one who was mosty just timid. Just shows timidness is not just a personal curse but can cause a lot of trouble to others. Everyone criticizes aggression (aggressively!) as harmful, but aggression was what was needed here.(PS I know coz used to be too timid but got over it to a decent extent).
For the longest time I thought that ATC was at fault. Now that I've watched several videos by the air safety institute I change my mind. The PIC is the one responsible even with the language barrier (flying to US English might come in handy, wrong for avianca) , he had to declare emergency in what universe priority means emergency. You may not have a single grasp of the english language but you know priority sounds like prioridad, and emergency sounds like emergencia. The lack of balls of the pilot is infuriating.
Yeah because Pablo Escobar was still alive at the time and the passengers got arrested because it was obvious that they were helping him sell out the cocaine.
Excuse me. You are an unrespectful man. If you were cultural you would be able to identify us with our Nobel prize of Literature of Gabriel Garcia Marquez. If you were sportive you would identify me by Falcao Garcia, with James Rodriguez, with Nairo Qintana, with Mariana Pajon (Olympic Champion) etc. If you were Artist, you would be able to identify me with Shakira,Juanes, Toto, L Momposina etc. If you read, you would identify me; with the best coffee in the world, with the best and most fine emeralds , with the Colombians flowers with the most jovial and caring people on the world. But I see that you only know the provider of your nefarious addiction. So Please respect, 48 million honest Colombian people would be thankful forever with you.
A 22-year old plane, broken autopilot, running out of fuel, distracted ATC, can't find the runway, the 1st officer won't advise emergency even though told to several times - those poor passengers.:(
*_You're just making the day more and more interesting!! Epic videos! Why not upgrade to FSX or Plane or Prepare 3D?_* Anyways carry on with what good work
From a news report on this crash: Samuel and Nettie Tissenbaum, husband and wife, were in their home at 16 Tennis Court Road in Cove Neck, New York, at about 9:25 pm, when Avianca Flight 52 crashed into their backyard. At the time of the crash, Nettie (71 years old) was in the shower, and Samuel (76 years old) was watching TV in the living room. When Flight 52 crashed into their backyard, Nettie heard what she described as a loud clap of thunder, right as the power went out. She immediately got out of the shower and put on her robe after drying up, and went into the living room where Sam was. The two got flashlights and went into their backyard, where they saw the destroyed plane and heard the sounds of many injured people shuffling around. Realizing the gravity of the situation, Sam went to the phone to call police and EMTs, but the plane took down the phone line alongside the power line. He got in his car as the driveway was unblocked, and went to a neighbor's house to call police.
I was hyperventilating even though I knew the outcome... So frustrating. As always a sequence of factors: NY airspace clustered, bad weather, ATC under pressure, bad communication. I'm sure if the flight crew had know the ending then they would've diverted on their reserves, better to land safely. I suppose they were 'hoping for the best' - "Declaring an Emergency" is a bit of a mouthful, would USA ATC Understand "PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN" or "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY"? I bet they would so why wouldn't they understand "Running out of fuel"?
It's vague. It could mean the same as "we're low on fuel" or a similar statement, which doesn't convey any specific level of urgency. There was no black and white declaration of the dire nature of the situation.
I was confused the whole time by how causal the crew was about being on just about vapors those last ten minutes. On hand you can’t panic I get that, you have to communicate with ATC clearly but this was just mind. First officer was a dumb ass but the captain should have been damn near yelling at his crew to inform atc wtf was going on.
I was there. Remember the plane hung up in the trees, with people trying to reach them with long ladders. The cockpit broken off and siting on McEnroes front porch. The real miracle is that one more minute of flight and that plane would have come down (and not straight down like at Rockaway) in one of the most populated bedroom communities in the world; 100's would have been killed.
As in some other plane tragedies, several deficiencies conspired to cause this one. The Captain of any commercial airplane should speak English sufficiently well to communicate directly with the ATC. The F/O should have declared an emergency rather than requesting priority. The ATC should have asked if they were declaring an emergency. And the weather made any landing difficult.
I counted 13 occurrences that preceded the crash. If any of them did not occur, the plane probably would have landed safely. Here they are: Bad weather delay leads to holding pattern; plane already low on fuel; pilots request closer Boston landing but do not say why; request gets lost; Boston again considered but pilots do not mention low fuel; atc has them accept jfk runway; more bad weather causes another hold; pilots tell atc they have 5 mins of fuel but seems not to fuuly register with atc, which instead asks about alternate (was boston but too late now); pilots may have one shot at a landing but miss approach and have to try again; pilot asks for f/o to declare an emergency but f/o instead merely repeats they are low on fuel and does not mention how low; atc further delays landing but does ask if they have enough fuel and f/o says "I guess so. Thank you very much." Twice more the pilots have a chance to declare an emergency but never do. Crash.
I can't read all the previous comments, but a few talk about how the pilots screwed up by not clearly declaring, in straight forward language, that they were in an emergency fuel state. I was in that mess that night, perhaps 30 minutes ahead of Avianca. . I'm not sure of the time, but no more than 30 minutes. My flight was extremely short, arriving from BDL (Windsor Locks, Conn.) We were almost empty but had enough fuel to last for several hours. We were holding on the North side of JFK, not the South as was Avianca. In our holding stack were arrivals from the North Atlantic. An Air India flight was the most vocal in discussing fuel problems. In those discussions, ATC advised all aircraft that Boston would only accept aircraft with CATII or III capability. The plane I was flying was CAT IIIa certified and had just landed at BDL and had to use that equipment as actual CAT III existed there. Many factors never came to light. The big issue at JFK was the wind and low altitude shear. Holding times and "Expect approach clearance" were being frequently extended for all flights. No reason was given. Pilots in all holding stacks had no idea that 50% of all approaches were resulting in a "miss" due to winds, not low ceilings. Thus the delays were building and fuel planning for all was grossly wrong. During our approach, at about 500 AGL the turbulence was so bad that it was difficult to read the instruments as they were blurred from our head movement. We were using the autoland CAT III equipment, even though it was not a CATIII approach. The aggressive auto pilot had no problem and at about 200' it was disengaged and we complete the landing visually. The 80 degree cross wind from the left was about 20 knots. On the way to the hotel that night, we heard about the crash. Poor communication about the missed approaches and why, is a factor that was huge, but never showed up in reports.
This happened due purely to EGO. F/O was a young boi and wanted to play Joe Cool... "I guess so" when asked to go to 3000... his ego had trouble admitting he couldn't go to 3000... young males have a problem saying "no I can't do it" and "I need help!"
![YoungBoy Never Broke Again - Sneaking [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ILUps2zDFU/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm a retired air traffic controller. Because of THIS ACCIDENT I started asking detailed questions concerning fuel status ANY TIME an aircraft I was holding and/delay vectoring mentioned the word FUEL!
Do/or have pilots misrepresented their fuel situation to ATC while in a holding pattern because they are frustrated about getting in? Or can ATC even know the veracity of such a statement from a pilot?
@@timothycook2917 I had a F-14 pilot tell me he only had 45 mins of fuel. I asked him "Is that til bingo or flameout?" When he refused to answer me I knew I had called his bluff. As for an airliner, I'm sure it has happened but I don't think it ever happened to me.
Thanks.
@@SteveH98264- Misleading a controller about ANYTHING should be a serious offense. I know that fighter pilots are always in short supply but did the F-14 pilot get grounded for a week or something like that?
@@algrayson8965 I never said a thing to anyone. Since he landed safely and didn't bitch about being delayed no one ever listened to the tapes. So no, nothing happened to the pilot.
JFK ATC: "and then turn you back on for the approach. Is that fine for you and your fuel?"
AV 52 F/O: "I guess so."
One does not "guess so" when one is flying a jet with nearly 150 passengers on board.
man, that exchange really hit me in the gut. These videos are so well done, when you hear a fatal exchange like that it's like a dagger.
I'm surprised the Captain sounded so laid back given that he was running on fumes?
SportsFreak I am Black and proud , and in no way shape or form a sellout or Uncle Tom... There was no reason to use the word Nigga here !!!!! Even if you are Black yourself and you think its a slang to take out the " er " and just use a " A ' . It is Offensive. A professional in aviation like myself for the past 21 years have been trying to show Caucasians that all black people are not dumb, but i can get real Gangsta ignorant if you want me too. Please Think About that when you visit a channel like this that is about a serious profession, Even if it is examining the cause and effects of some dumb ass decisions like the ones done in this video, like not declaring a emergency for low Fuel. Thanks
Leon Swan, thank you. And I don't think SportsFreak's YT account will last much longer.
Respect and don't blame Avianca about what the airline responded. Its pilot error and don't blame the captain he left behind a wife and 2 young daughters. And for Colombia this accident was devastating because most of the passengers dead were from Colombia. So don't blame those errors because everyone can commit them even do they have lives on risk.
I started watching your channel seven months ago, where I didn't know anything about aerospace or aircrafts.
Now you're the main reason why I got accepted to Kingston university (UK) to study Aerospace engineering.
Thank you very much for changing my life.
I learnt a lot from your channel
Love from Jordan ( currently living in the UK)
Nice!
We who regularly watch this channel are proud of you. Its like a Baby pilot we all made. Awwwww
Hi good luck
@@leonswan6733 thank you 😍😍😍
@@mohamedabderrahmenhamra6302
You too brother inshallah 😍😍
These videos are so well done, you watch for 15 minutes with just text, graphics and the sound of engines in nearly pitch blackness and the words 'I guess so' hit you straight in the gut. No need for flashy cinematics or badly acted reconstructions, these videos tell you how these tragedies unfolded in the most stark and real way possible whilst remaining respectful to the fact they involve the deaths of real people. Top man Allec.
I agree 100% with you. Technical, instructive and respectful. As an engineer, I found the forensics are healing.
better than most movies
bang on
Rangda Rangda Exactly! I’m addicted after only watching a few of these videos, and now I watch at least one every single day. When I heard the FO say “I guess so” I knew right then the plane was not going to make it. This plane was put in too many (3) holding patterns because of traffic and the FO right then should’ve declared a low fuel emergency. Other traffic in front of the line would just have to clear the skies in holding patterns, but the FO failed to use the word emergency, instead he used the word priority. Priority to ATC does not equal emergency, although the ATC should’ve asked for clarification.
Two things:
1. Because the plane ran out of fuel, many passengers survived because there was no catastrophic fire when the plane crashed.
2. Investigators also determined that more passengers could have survived the crash if the seat anchors were better designed. Entire rows of seats broke free from the cabin floor upon impact and caused a domino effect, crushing and killing other passengers. As a result of this crash, passenger seats are now anchored by redesigned, stronger anchors.
there were better seats made at that point, but airlines decided not to install them in older planes.
Giordan Diodato yes it wasn’t to another plane crash very similar to this with I believe many more deaths it was put into affect.
@@bravo795mp 2008 is when it was mandatory.
I'm not sure which crash it was though
bro why is your name xanax dude
@@GiordanDiodato- This crash was back before airline deregulation cut profit margins razor thin. The old established airlines became under severe financial stress with underfunded retirement pensions that new airlines didn't have after dereg.
The Captain was very insistant in declaring an emergency (in hindsight he was spot on) yet the FO screwed them all over. The fuel comments should have had ATC more concerned too
This one brought me literally to tears. WHAT THE HELL, man? Sure, more forceful language was called for. But what about the word "fuel" didn't raise the proper concern at ATC?
This may be the most agonizing of all the major air disasters. Only the Tenerife disaster comes close. The constant delays, the indecision, the miscommunication, the terrible luck. Brutal.
This F/O was an idiot. The captain insisted on declaring an emergency and the first officer was reluctant to use the word in English. This was not a language barrier issue. The first officer wanted to be too polite and humble. He was acting like he didn't want to be a burden to ATC, agreeing with his requests. He should have owned his position and responsibility and spoken adamantly. This was lack of training. And there's a reason why no pilot who can't speak English should be allowed to fly international routes.
lumgs2009 Negative. Declaring an emergency requirs an FAA investigation and possibly reflects poorly on the captain in the eyes on his company. The dumb 28 year old F/O who was the pilot in charge of that flight, just didn't want to get in trouble and gambled everyones lives.
Correct, the FO was most at fault. They could have saved the plane, even on the 2nd MA. IF they would have declared a fuel emergency, ATC would have prioritized them in the traffic pattern, not fly them out 15 miles past the outer marker. The ATC naysayers need to remember that ATC, at one of the busiest airports in the world, in bad weather, is going to prioritize traffic based on need and REPORTED fuel loads. They don't have time to babysit incompetent pilots that fail to manage their flight. Also, the PIC is just that, and can and should speak up in that situation.
@@korylooper3170 better an FAA investigation than your (and 80+ other) lives
"hey fucktards, we got no more gas"
@@ThatGuy-te9wh FO definitely a fucktard. Captain was flying the plane so the FO should have immediately declared a fuel emergency. ATC would have given them 1st priority, a short approach and landing clearance on the runway of their choice. This accident happened because the FO was a fucking pussy. That's what it comes down to
Another example of why standard terminology is so important.
standard terminology be damned when i'm in a life or death situation.
From other videos I understand there are certain terms (Pan Pan Pan? Mayday?) used for emergencies... this crew never communicated proper wording or terms, correct?
First Official should used the word "emergency"...NTSB said on final report...
Giordan Diodato that’s exactly when you need it.
That Captain and FO needed to be far more insistent on their situation than they were. Even the engineer could have spoken up and said "We need to land this damn plane right now".
PantsofVance • Agreed! I found myself wanting to shake somebody in the cockpit and say “SAY EMERGENCEEEEEEEE!!!!!”
It sounded like the pilot was but that the FO failed to communicate how drastic the situation was.
Where was the airstrip? How did he miss it?
PantsofVance yes, these guys needed to be insisting and land now!
MarshalPoole At a big Class B Airspace airport that should be... it should of had some serious ALSF Cat 3 or 4 with REIL`s ( runway end identifier lights ) strobe lights and that colorful christmas tree light formation at the approach end of a runway, plus the runway lights at full brightness. It must have been so rainy and stormy bad weather that he could not see nothing out the window at his IFR ( Instrument Flight Rules ) landing minimums at the MAF ( Miss Approach Fix ) for him to do a go-around. ILS can only be so accurate to bring your nose gear at the center line of the runway and your main gear tires so many feet above the runway pavement. What about the Radio Altimeter with localiser back taxi feature??? At one point in watching and listening at the first landing attempt, i was contemplating even just Flaring and cut engine power to Idle than risking a go-around with running out of fuel if i was in the pilots shoes. It more than likely would of crashed. A main tire bogey touch down on the runway pavement with just ILS / DME and Radio ALT.
What do you Airline Pilots think ?????
"two passengers are arrested for possession of cocaine packages"
imagine smuggling it all the way through and then your stupid plane crashes lmaoo
Obese Boy LOL
I guess you're still going through customs whether the plane makes it or not.
Imagine surviving a plane crash and still having a "bad" day.
They should have been like... Your under arrest for that cocaine.... But..... You nearly died..... So.... Just this once.... Go ahead have a snort.... Then come with me.. A...h...
They would have been caught by customs most likely.
Watching this is frustrating. Why won't he just declare an emergency ?
Pramod Herath ,
Cultural differences? Emergency to the copilot would be an explosion, hydraulic system failure, electrical system failure, pressurization system failure, etc, not low fuel?
Poor training? He did fail to obey the captain's repeated order to declare an emergency. He was probably used to doing whatever he wanted due to the language problems the captain had. Afterall, if the boss cannot understand English than he can get away with saying whatever he wants in English and the boss cannot reprimand him for it.
I would say as soon as they aborted the first landing attempt that was a time to declare an absolute emergency.
If you hear, the pilot repeatedly told to the first offiicer to declare an emergency and even asked the first officer for confirmation but the first officer kept saying we're running out of fuel..
too much weed before the flight
They thought they did declare an emergency, but did not use proper terminology. ATC would only recognize terms like "mayday", "pan pan", or declaring an "emergency" straight up. That F/O kept saying "priority", which carries a much greater sense of urgency in some Latin American countries (including Colombia) than it does in the US.
i get nervous when my car is on empty. i can't believe this.
Yah I guess he shoulda said "Listen mother fuckers I need to land this bitch I'm running on empty" ridiculous
Why would you let your car get to empty lol
I thought the same when cars get on empty! My nerves would’ve been through the roof if I was flying a plane and it was the same situation!
RebelGodessRed90 if the car runs out of fuel we just get stranded. If an airplane...i wish these people were more risk averse
@@Dawnie-bi6qu no what's ridiculous is the pilot never used the word EMERGENCY!! When the ATC said is this heading ok for your fuel it should've been a blatant HELL NO, EMERGENCY we are out! This is 100% on the 1st officer. So sad
It was very anxiety inducing to watch this! Well done, but terribly sad.
Yes, I was yelling at the screen A LOT!
I need to stop watching these or I'm never getting on a plane again.
Ugh RIGHTTTTT!!
Ha. Whatever happens, happens for good.
I'm not a commercial pilot. But I am a man that has handled emergencies situations many times. This was soo hard to watch and listen to !! This brings it all back.
@Cindy Tartt I don't think anything could have been done to prevent it in that situation.
Can you imagine being in a plane crash, surviving, then being arrested?
That would suck, the big one
I'd still feel very lucky.
Oscar Leeson definitely wasn’t their lucky day🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I agree, that would suck. And for possessing some white powder which shouldn't be illegal in the 1st place. Big brother has to tell us what we can or cannot put in our own bodies. Small government my ass
@@invertedreality4473 You do understand that cocaine is very much worse for you than marijuana, right?
I love how the captain told the FO to tell the controllers they were having an emergency but he only told them they were running out of fuel and not empty. Truly the height of comprehension.
Bloody Requiem no I looked through the dialogue. He did say "we've ran out of fuel" at one point.
Tomoe Yamagawa incomprehension
@@darcyblack8222 *"Running out of fuel" does not tell you anything - you have one hour of fuel left you can tell the control tower "you are running out of fuel";* you have one hour left "you are running out fuel" you have 30% of fuel left you are "running out of fuel", it does not QUANTIFY your situation, however you see "I have a 5 minutes of fuel left" everyone can see your dire situation
It's so sad when people die due to a pilot failing to understand the nuances between two word meanings (e.g. "priority" vs. "emergency").
I know. When he kept saying "we're running out of fuel" I wanted to say "NO! Tell them you are OUT of fuel, and are declaring an emergency!"
it's a language barrier.
and the FAA took some blame for lack of standards when it came to communication between ATC and international flights
Spanish for emergency is "emergencia" BTW
And asshole controllers.
Wow, that was a nail biter! And no, I never once heard the word "emergency" come out of Klotz's mouth.
This one is especially sad. To think that it happened because of the wrong word being used and the language barrier. RIP all that were lost.
Seems to me like “we’re running out of fuel” should be understood as “emergency” when fuel is what keeps the aircraft in the air.
Add: The standard phrase of Aviation English should be used!
absolutely
Yes normally it would but he always qualified by saying we should be good or I guess so which essentially stopped the controller from continuing the interrogation.
Every plane with engines running is "running out of fuel". The question is - how urgently? How imminently? Request "priority" is not the same as "Mayday mayday mayday I am declaring an emergency extremely low on fuel request vectors straight to the final approach!"
@@slehar- Duh. Why do you think I put “running out of fuel” in quotes??? Huh???
Just as in motoring, “running OUT of fuel” means that the remaining fuel may not be sufficient to get to a safe place to park/land.
“Running LOW on fuel” means that sufficient fuel remains to get to the next landing/refueling place but no extra to go to the next one past.
These are not precision terms.
@@algrayson8965 Here's a precise term: "I am declaring an emergency". No doubt, no ambiguity. Pilots are trained to say it when the situation calls for it.
I love your videos and are weirdly addicted to them. My wife knows the sound of your videos now. She just looked at me and said, "another plane crash?"
Hells ya I said. Hells ya.
I get the same reaction
Hahahahha same here. And a friend ask me why am I obsessing at this
Same here but I have to stop watching when I have a flight in the near future
Hahaha...me too. I also am addicted to National Geographic channels ‘Aircrash Investigation’. Best show on cable.
Hahahah same here
Pilots need assertiveness training. Say, "No!" to the third goddamn holding pattern, declare a low-fuel emergency, and demand priority clearance to Boston ... and everyone lives.
A likely better word to use is "unable".
There's a set of audio clips somewhere where this attitude was demonstrated perfectly, and many people criticised that pilot for "being a drama queen" or something like that. In that clip though, you can hear him mention fuel multiple times beforehand, and it was only after a while he declared emergency and demanded everyone move out of his way. The first thought I had after reading those comments was "damn right he did that, there's no way they can go out like Avianca did".
I was flying in the northeast corridor that day. Avianca should have started a divert when issued the second hold. They overflew a lot of usable airports with better weather conditions. Declaring an emergency is no big deal. If you declare an emergency ATC has to make the sky yours till you have a resolution. 4 engine jets are not easy on fuel down low with flaps out. Sad ending for sure. Another well done video Allec.
Finally someone knows what the hell they are talking about. Thank you.
Even if the captain knows zero English, teach him at least two words - Emergency and Mayday
Pan Pan Pan, at their first holding command would have gotten them plenty of priority and options....
Roziah Abu Bakar Avianca had no business flying an airplane to the USA when the Captain didn’t speak or understand English.
Only pilots who speak English should be allowed to pilot an airplane to here. The FAA also failed.
in fact mayday is not an English word, same for panpan
@@olivierb9716 In fact Mayday IS an English word. You're thinking of "M'aidez" which is where the word is derived.
@@stvandy1 Pilots should have to speak English at all, at least concerning the communication with ATC, and other pilots. When they don't speak English that good, or sufficient, to have a conversation with native English speakers during a holiday or so, about everyday's life, hobbies and that kind of things, it is not that bad. But it is very important to be able to communicate properly with the ATC, and other people involved! Recently I read that some pilots of Turkish airline companies have a bad reputation of speaking very bad English. But I immediately thought after reading this that this might be a 'fake' thing, as it is not oncommon with Turkish people when they hear something they don't like to hear it is the standard phrase: 'I don't understand'. Sadly I have this experience at my work at almost a daily base... :(
These types of videos are a much better format than the air crash investigation documentaries. Thank you so much for making them. I will sponsor you in the future when my situation improves.
Allec, these are all great and I have watched them all. This is one of the best. It's truly gripping and harrowing. Thank you.
This was the most suspenseful of your videos I have watched to date.
Ffs that FO!! Never declared true desperation or emergency as captain repeatedly requested....so angry
Nexus should have been fired. Not even given a second chance. He knew what was needed
The question remains - why didn't the captain declare the emergency? What reason could there be for his disinclination to do so?
chuckschilling he couldn't speak English but he was smart enough to tell his first officer to declare mayday which he never did
Sat there with heart in mouth, shaking my head - those poor innocent passengers & cabin crew - just cos the dopes in the pointy end won't say "MAYDAY!" - an international distress message.
ESL people, jackass.
@@GiordanDiodato I am a pilot and happen to know MAYDAY is a universal distress signal. It is actually French, so no call for the 'jackass'. .
@@GiordanDiodato "M'aidez": help me
Klotz was the klutz.
I think the First Officer should have been fired. ....oh wait .....never mind ....
@Lucas F. the flight engineer also, but...
13:32 "No, it's not fine. We need direct immediately and declare an emergency, advise."
Right! Knuckle head says "i guess so". The answer is we can't. This is an emergency.
I was flying for PanAm at that time, Avianca 052 missed the approach in front of us, then crashed behind us. It was a really crappy night, we held at ACY for a long time, Avianca 1000 feet below us in the stack. The Avianca F/O mentioned a possible fuel problem a couple of times, however ATC was swamped, and never picked up on it. They were released from the hold at ACY, then were again delayed at Camrn intersection. We were released from the hold, ending up behind Avianca on the approach, ILS 22L. The weather was right at the bottom, with wind and rain, and wind shear. I was strapped in pretty tight with my five-point harness, but I whacked my head at 1000 feet on the way down the chute. We were just inside the outer marker, when Avianca announced that they were on the go. We landed safely, then heard of the crash from the local controller exiting the runway. The airport would close for app. 45 minutes, giving everyone a chance to reset their switches.
I've been binge watching your videos, and this was the most frustrating and claustrophobic yet. :(((
RIP
To the 73 passengers and crew of Avianca Flight 052
so eerie that you can barely see the runway lights when they are conducting that missed approach. what a decision it must have been to trust the fact that they were too low too soon and conduct the missed approach. knowing they were out of fuel.
Rob Younan ,
Bad decision. They had to be near the runway. There is a lot of clear area around the approach end. You have no fuel for a missed approach, so you keep going with what control you have. You might crash short. You might land long and have to brake hard. Either way you are on the airfield with rescue much closer.
+David Hoffman I was thinking the same thing, but do you thing the ILS DME and Radio Altimeter could guide him that the nose wheel would be close to the centerline of the runway and use his RA to flare, cut power to idle so softly as possible have the main gear bogey tires touchdown on the runway pavement?
Leon Swan ,
No. As far as I know no commercial B707 had the systems capabilities to do that. Remember that as you get closer to the runway the needle deflection on the instruments swing wildly. The closer you come to the tip of the "cone" even a few feet of deviation will show as a full needle deflection.
The RA would help but the best you can hope for without a Category 3 ILS system for both aircraft and runway is a rough landing somewhere around the runway.
David Hoffman, Again, that's what i thought. I would of have to take that option , as bad as it was. I hope the aircrew did not forget about Newark airport across the Hudson River.
i agree with you of course but we werent there and i dont think the captain had full control of this flight. it looked like the fo was making decisions without always translating them to the captain. i also think that they were trying to minimize the severity of their fuel situation. they wouldnt declare an emergency, at least the fo didnt. they were trying to do things by the book and keep everyone calm. that was why they didnt declare emergency. this is also why they went around. didnt want to crash the plane to short or too long because fo probably thought he'd have one more shot. but why take those risks with 100 people behind you though. there were plenty of times the fo could have said simply "i need to get down now" even those words would have helped. instead he just takes direction from atc and carries on while running out of fuel...
You do not miss an approach with 0 fuel left. You make it in! Period.
Or if you don't make it, you.........declare a god damn Emergency! straight away!
The level of incompetence of all 3 cockpit crew, is astonishing.
And hope ILS is not malfunctioning - but definitely hang in until reach g/a limit.
@@partytill10 Pilots SHOULD be able to land with or without ILS. ILS wasn't always available, you know. The old school VOR way is still used exclusively in a lot of smaller airports overseas and every pilot is required to be proficient in executing VOR approaches and landings.
@@chuckschillingvideos Did you watch the same video? Inclement weather conditions
@@Bankable2790 So what? VOR isn't dependent on weather conditions. It's based on position calculation based on radio signals. Clearly you don't know what you're talking about. www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-vor-approaches-work/
I am addicted to these videos.
the desire to learn from others’ fatal mistakes is a key part of human psychology
It's 3 things for me:
1. Fascination with planes
2. Fascination with disasters
and
3. Learning what went wrong
Yesss me too
Previously, I have heard Controllers ask, "Are you declaring an emergency?" The Controllers were cleared of any wrong doing, but experienced Controllers will ask, "Are you declaring an emergency?" I don't blame the Controllers. The F/O should have used the word, "EMERGENCY." Another reason for this crash was that the Autopilot was inoperative and could not lock onto JFK's ILS. Had the Autopilot been working and could have locked onto the ILS, the Captain would have easily found the runway. (Not sure if this is possible on the 707.)
I don't know but isn't ILS separate from autopilot? I think it's connected to radio systems and just gives instrument readout regardless of if autopilot is working.
I think the first bad decision made by the crew was to land at JFK in the first place. You are already low on fuel before you get there. Weather is awful at JFK. At a busy airport like JFK, this has everything in a huge log jam, with 20 other planes in front of you flying a holding pattern as well. Planes missing their approaches(exactly what they did) and having to go around again because of lousy weather further compounds the problem.
They could have talked to other pilots trying to land at JFK, get a feeling for the situation, see how long some of them had been in a holding pattern, maybe gotten the hint that things were totally FUBAR and trying to land at JFK on fumes wasn't a good idea.
There were so many other airports they could have diverted to, Newark, Teterboro, LaGuiardia(those 3 might have had bad weather/been jammed with traffic diverting from JFK), Baltimore, Dulles, Philly, New Haven when they realized they were low on fuel over Virginia. Why their alternate was Boston makes no sense, I mean look at a map, you are low on fuel and you are flying to an airport farther away. WTF??
Aaron Bays they had enough fuel to make it to Boston they should have called for a weather update before they got near Virginia and put into a hold. They could have diverted to their alternate airport and landed safely.
Aaron Bays How could they have not seen a runway at JFK? Isn't it a first rate airport with lit up runways??
Kory Looper it was raining with a very low cloud ceiling so visibility was extremely poor that night. You factor in the wind sheer that pushed them below the glide-slope on their first approach causing them to almost crash and not see the runway. There were several planes that missed on their first approach not being able to see the runway.
I mean, they teach you to check weather and alts before getting there since flight school, I don’t know what was going on with this crew and that FO whom seemed to be scared by US ATCs
@@korylooper3170 Inadequate visibility in a horrible storm. Several planes in front of them went around when they couldn't see the runway at minimums.
Does anyone know 2002 Tampa Cessna 172 crash? On January 5, 2002, there is plane is Cessna 172. Its registration is N2371N. That plane is privately owned plane. The 15 years old student pilot named Charlie J. Bishop and his instructor go to N2371N. But somehow, the instructor told him to wait here and he will come back later. Bishop’s instructor left him alone at the plane to perform a preflight inspection. When the instructor left, Bishop went inside the Cessna 172 and closed the door. He started the engine and took off without permission. The Air Traffic Controller (ATC) saw that N2371N took off without asking them for permission to take off. Soon after take off, the air traffic controllers alerted the United States Coast Guard and the MacDill Air Force Base. Despite repeated warnings from the helicopter dispatched by the Coast Guard. The Cessna 172 continued flying somehow. And later N2371N was flying low and crashed into the office building in Tampa, Florida, U.S.The building is Bank of America building. The plane crashed between 28th and 29th floors on the 42-story building. Charlie J. Bishop had died in the crash. As the investigation began, this was the result: the plane was stolen and suicide crash by the 15 years old student pilot named Charlie J. Bishop. (Aircraft theft (stolen) and suicide crash)
gomphrena, what do you mean? The only person in the plane was Charlie J. Bishop. No one die or injure in the tower but the 15 years old student pilot died. Read whole part of my story.
Well, he's inspired by the 911 attacks
I live just outside of Tampa, and remember this happening. I recall it was on a Sunday, so the building was empty. I always wondered if it really was a suicide, but what other explanation could there have been?
Birdnest58, so you know the plane crashed into the Tampa building since 2002?
SMB 226B, you’re right.
2 in a row, wow!
Also feel bad for the passengers on board this flight. I feel terrible.
Damn. Imagine surviving this only to be arrested for possession.
I'da done all the shit before we crashed, problem solved
Dire situation. Poor families. RIP to all those who perished.
This is really great - so suspenseful using well chosen audio. Kudos to you. So really sad and harrowing that the event occurred because of some cultural deference displayed by the FO.And ending in silence, no fire.
for “once” a flight attendant survived!!! still a sad moment though 😔
You did a very good job of recreating this tragedy. Thank you so much.
SINCE THEY COULDNT SAY IT I WILL - MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY NO FEUL
Thank you!! I feel a little better now. Perhaps, I can sleep tonight without bolting upright and yelling what you just typed! If I do awake, I'll be sure to add we are DECLARING an EMERGENCY! Fuels CRITICAL, maximum 2000 feet, 5 mile final!
Yes thats it.
Bruh tf is Feul? It's Fuel dumbass
Really well edited, Allec! One of your best ones to date! Nicely done!
1. The fact that the FAA settled really pisses me off.
2. This is exactly why the flight crew of any aircraft flying to U S soil should be fluent in English.
This one is so irritating to me! It could have been AVOIDED!!!!
Wow I was rooting for these guys. Zero visibility, low on fuel , holding patterns. Fate was not in their favor. Rip
I've been on a short haul trip to New York in a smaller jet.
We were put into not just one, but two circling holds for some time.
I spent the time during those holds nervously wondering about our fuel state.
Fortunately, the weather was fine, and we landed safely, albeit late as always.
Watching this on approach to SEATAC after being in holding pattern for 2 hours...at least I can say I had the best plane WiFi I’ve ever had!
Z-Cast Productions bit of a masochist, aren’t you? 😂
i AM HAVING A HEART ATTACK WATCHING THIS AND STILL HAVE 2MINS TO GO...OMG....THEY JUST RAN OUT OF FUEL..OMG...
THERESA FRIESEN I actually skipped the last couple minutes of the flight and just read about the crash at the end. It's easier that way.
That was gripping - without knowing the outcome and just by reading what the F/O said it seemed he simply wasn't conveying the gravity of the situaiton to the ground
Exactly right Simon. I admit, first time reading and hearing about this accident, I initially blamed ATC for it cause I was thinking the same thing a lot of people were; “How the hell is “running out of fuel” not considered an emergency, even though the actual term was never used. But after hearing how calm Klotz was when reporting the situation - no wonder ATC didn’t think it was anything urgent. To them, it came across as an impatient pilot wanting to land, and the F/O is acting like he’s reading the goddamn Sunday paper when he says; “running out of fuel.” This whole accident could have been prevented were it not for a variety of factors, but especially not withstanding of which was Klotz’s gambling on their fuel load or risk angering ATC when they were near zero.
The two drug pushers had one hell of a story to tell their cellmates
2 uploads in one day. Nice.
I was watching angry customers at Walmart and somehow ended up here lol..glad I did! Very well done videos! Had me on the edge of my seat!
You got me curious on how your video adventure got you here. ahaha.
Allec Joshua Ibay Worked out well for both of us.. I subscribed and have been watching for 3 hours! I gotta get some sleep!
@@kloop1948 Ahaha! Stay tuned for more
I just want to scream while I watch these! So many lives lost to flat out STUPID mistakes!
But they want us to believe planes are the safest way to travel. Bulls***! I'm tired of seeing people die because of Pilot error.
people should not allowed to fly an airplane out of their country if they don´t speak appropiate english! how can it be, that a captain is allowed to fly us territory without speaking english!
Same as Americans can fly to other countries and not speak their language..Your stupidity and arrogance are incomprehensible
Sir,you need to be reminded that majority of the US pilots do not either speak or understand other languages,yet they have clearance to travel to another countries ASSUMING that their air traffic controllers speak fluent English!!!
@@Prospectpark79 Speaking English is MANDATORY to fly Internationally commercially! www.aviation-esl.com/ICAO_English.htm
@@TheKonga88 no, that's your problem. www.aviation-esl.com/ICAO_English.htm
@@Prospectpark79 STFU. This is aviation. We are talking about life and death being dependant on the pilots understanding English. Are you very liberal because your comment screams " I'm an emotional wreck and cnn is real news. I like democrats. Guns have arms and legs and kill people."
10 minutes of fuel left and the pilots have to execute a missed approach. Talk about bad timing. So sad.
This was your best video so far! I thought they wil make it... 🙁
Seems that the First Officer was somehow too proud to communicate an emergency. Or that he did not want to raise too much fuss about their problems. If so, those were most displaced sentiments.
The FO ignored direct instructions from the Captain to declare an "Emergency", on 3 separate occasions.
However, if the Captain could not even recognise that the FO did NOT say the English word for "Emergency" to ATC, then he should not have been flying an international flight!
@@kyliepechler it's practically the same word in English and Spanish!
Maybe he was afraid they'd investigate and find all the coke if he declared an emergency.
I noticed that on many of these videos, pilots are slow to convey something is wrong. The plane could be on fire and burning for two minutes before the pilot announces an emergency or mayday. If the rudder is completely missing, the pilot will only say "We are experiencing control issues."
Shame on ATC. "running out of fuel" is a pan pan pan call. Captain should of been wearing his headset to confirm FO declared emergency.
Steven Ramos ATC constantly asked about their fuel and they downplayed the problem until engines flamed out. I'm sure ATC hears many pilots mention fuel to get to the front of the line and treat those things as such until a pilot makes it clear he actually has a problem with pan pan pan or explicitly mentioning "we have less than 1000 gallons of fuel we'll be declaring an emergency at 500 gallons" etc etc. The more information ATC has the better they can do their job. Maybe five other planes that night also mentioned potential fuel issues on the horizon, who knows...
I would suggest giving the audio recording between the flight and ATC a shot before judging the latter. The flight crew sound *unbelievably* nonchalant about the emergency they were actually in. It's just dumbfounding...
ruclips.net/video/ie8kLg9Xvd8/видео.html
Crew never said Pan Pan Pan though...
I remember this when it happened. Throughout my 30 years of airline flying (1988-2018 November retirement Capt Airbus) we changed procedure and callouts from time to time. About 2 years before retirement there was still confusion from flight decks to ATC on our priority of handling so it became mandatory "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" or "PAN PAN PAN". This made it clear to ATC. In Aug 2011 was the only time I used MAYDAY and I made sure ATC knew our situation was critical. I lost an engine as I rotated out of San Franciso, heavy with 7 hours of fuel and 25,000 lbs+ over max landing weight. We came back and landed safely and called it a day lol. We swallowed 40 seagulls through the right engine destroying 14 of 36 fan blades. Always tell ATC what your problem is, plain English, and what you need from them. "Keep us out of the mountains, over the water, 20 miles final " or whatever you are going to need. We used all of those and the fire dept followed us to the gate because the brakes were cooking hot. Its sad thiis crew ran out of fuel. Certainly, phraseology was a problem. Thanks for posting this video.
Well done Captain Knox : )
The FAA shouldn't have paid a dime. If you don't declare an emergency, you don't have one.
I love how thorough these videos are. So amazingly comprehensive. One tiiiiny complaint, though. I know it doesn’t even matter and people are going to give me shit, but there always seem to be a few noticeable spelling errors. It might be good to run the text through a spellcheck, just to confirm. I only say it because of how professional it looks otherwise. Great work as always, my friend.
You spelled tiny wrong. Here's your shit.
This is the second one I have seen where the co-pilot requests "Priority" rather than declaring emergency with fuel issues. I don't understand the lack of urgency when looking at serious fuel issues. Why would the captain agree to circle for that long knowing they were low on fuel and may need to do a go around due to weather. I just don't get it.
I remember this VERY WELL because it was the day actress Ava Gardner passed away and I was pregnant and watching the news.
After flying from so far and for so long without any issues a jet should NEVER have to run out of fuel and crash. They were in a "holding pattern" for well over 2 hours.
One of the most remarkable thing that came out of this tragedy was that 2 DRUG MULES survived the crash.
I know 1 was prosecuted. So many died and they lived.
I'm so glad that it missed peoples homes.
I don’t understand why a settlement was paid, the fault was with The First Officer’s failure to declare an emergency. Requesting a priority isn’t the same as declaring an emergency.
Cost less to settle than to litigate
The money is limitless and free. They don't care. There's plenty more where that came from.
That plane flew right over my house. It was a warm humid night, very cloudy. It was very low and it rattled all the dishes. I ran outside and could see the lighted windows of the cabin. After a few seconds, I heard him throttle up. I heard it for about 10 seconds and then quiet. About 30 minutes later, in the middle of "Cheers", the news interrupted that a plane had crashed in Oyster Bay.
That was stressful.
These videos are addicting. While I am watching them I see and hear planes fly overhead as I am in one of the flight paths to Minneapolis-St. Paul International. In most of these videos you know the outcome but you can't stop watching.
The crew failed to declare an emergency demanding priority for the landing, making it all clear about the crisis going on.
Maybe one of the most maddening videos there is...
Seems to me that there was (at least) one other airline tragedy where the pilots didn't/wouldn't effectively/accurately communicate how urgent their situation was. Ring any bells with anyone here?
United, Washington.
Swissair 111. Though to be fair, the pilots probably didn't realise the extent of the fire until it was burning the cockpit walls.
Lamia 2933
That the spaceship which was being flown by giant ants and it contained Martian embryos..The ants were delivering the Martians to Colorado when lightning struck their spaceship and it crashed killing all 32 ants and 127 Martian embryos ..🐜🐜🐜🐜👸🐜🐜🐜🐸🎃👽👽👽👽
the air france one where the capt and f/o were pushing opposite ways on their joysticks on an airbus for literally minutes till it fell out of the sky. that particular f/o was a lot dumber even than this one who was mosty just timid. Just shows timidness is not just a personal curse but can cause a lot of trouble to others. Everyone criticizes aggression (aggressively!) as harmful, but aggression was what was needed here.(PS I know coz used to be too timid but got over it to a decent extent).
Your videos are riveting. I can almost taste the fear in that cockpit. Many thanks.
For the longest time I thought that ATC was at fault. Now that I've watched several videos by the air safety institute I change my mind. The PIC is the one responsible even with the language barrier (flying to US English might come in handy, wrong for avianca) , he had to declare emergency in what universe priority means emergency. You may not have a single grasp of the english language but you know priority sounds like prioridad, and emergency sounds like emergencia. The lack of balls of the pilot is infuriating.
The pilot didn’t speak English? Wow.
Two uploads in one day? Wow much harder work
So two passengers surives plane crash later on arrested for cocaine LMAO
Sorry are you addict?
Yeah because Pablo Escobar was still alive at the time and the passengers got arrested because it was obvious that they were helping him sell out the cocaine.
They were not. Respect Colombia
There’s nothing about Columbia worth respecting. It’s a failed, corrupt shithole of a country.
Excuse me. You are an unrespectful man. If you were cultural you would be able to identify us with our Nobel prize of Literature of Gabriel Garcia Marquez. If you were sportive you would identify me by Falcao Garcia, with James Rodriguez, with Nairo Qintana, with Mariana Pajon (Olympic Champion) etc. If you were Artist, you would be able to identify me with Shakira,Juanes, Toto, L Momposina etc. If you read, you would identify me; with the best coffee in the world, with the best and most fine emeralds , with the Colombians flowers with the most jovial and caring people on the world. But I see that you only know the provider of your nefarious addiction. So Please respect, 48 million honest Colombian people would be thankful forever with you.
A 22-year old plane, broken autopilot, running out of fuel, distracted ATC, can't find the runway, the 1st officer won't advise emergency even though told to several times - those poor passengers.:(
Very poor communication, especially first officer to ATC.
I remember when this happened. So sad. My father read the details to me from the newspaper.
*_You're just making the day more and more interesting!! Epic videos! Why not upgrade to FSX or Plane or Prepare 3D?_* Anyways carry on with what good work
Intellectual Hazard*/_\* He probably has addons that work improperly on FSX.
Very sad preventable event. Thank you for the video.
Double upload?
Yay
From a news report on this crash: Samuel and Nettie Tissenbaum, husband and wife, were in their home at 16 Tennis Court Road in Cove Neck, New York, at about 9:25 pm, when Avianca Flight 52 crashed into their backyard. At the time of the crash, Nettie (71 years old) was in the shower, and Samuel (76 years old) was watching TV in the living room.
When Flight 52 crashed into their backyard, Nettie heard what she described as a loud clap of thunder, right as the power went out. She immediately got out of the shower and put on her robe after drying up, and went into the living room where Sam was. The two got flashlights and went into their backyard, where they saw the destroyed plane and heard the sounds of many injured people shuffling around.
Realizing the gravity of the situation, Sam went to the phone to call police and EMTs, but the plane took down the phone line alongside the power line. He got in his car as the driveway was unblocked, and went to a neighbor's house to call police.
I was hyperventilating even though I knew the outcome... So frustrating. As always a sequence of factors: NY airspace clustered, bad weather, ATC under pressure, bad communication. I'm sure if the flight crew had know the ending then they would've diverted on their reserves, better to land safely. I suppose they were 'hoping for the best' - "Declaring an Emergency" is a bit of a mouthful, would USA ATC Understand "PAN-PAN PAN-PAN PAN-PAN" or "MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY"? I bet they would so why wouldn't they understand "Running out of fuel"?
It's vague. It could mean the same as "we're low on fuel" or a similar statement, which doesn't convey any specific level of urgency. There was no black and white declaration of the dire nature of the situation.
Your Channel is so UNDERRATED.
I was confused the whole time by how causal the crew was about being on just about vapors those last ten minutes. On hand you can’t panic I get that, you have to communicate with ATC clearly but this was just mind. First officer was a dumb ass but the captain should have been damn near yelling at his crew to inform atc wtf was going on.
I was there. Remember the plane hung up in the trees, with people trying to reach them with long ladders. The cockpit broken off and siting on McEnroes front porch. The real miracle is that one more minute of flight and that plane would have come down (and not straight down like at Rockaway) in one of the most populated bedroom communities in the world; 100's would have been killed.
The F/O was the single cause of this accident. He was an incompetent fool.
He just refused to communicate that this was an emergency then kept claiming to the captain that he had.
As in some other plane tragedies, several deficiencies conspired to cause this one. The Captain of any commercial airplane should speak English sufficiently well to communicate directly with the ATC. The F/O should have declared an emergency rather than requesting priority. The ATC should have asked if they were declaring an emergency. And the weather made any landing difficult.
I realise there's some changes
I counted 13 occurrences that preceded the crash. If any of them did not occur, the plane probably would have landed safely. Here they are:
Bad weather delay leads to holding pattern; plane already low on fuel; pilots request closer Boston landing but do not say why; request gets lost; Boston again considered but pilots do not mention low fuel; atc has them accept jfk runway; more bad weather causes another hold; pilots tell atc they have 5 mins of fuel but seems not to fuuly register with atc, which instead asks about alternate (was boston but too late now); pilots may have one shot at a landing but miss approach and have to try again; pilot asks for f/o to declare an emergency but f/o instead merely repeats they are low on fuel and does not mention how low; atc further delays landing but does ask if they have enough fuel and f/o says "I guess so. Thank you very much." Twice more the pilots have a chance to declare an emergency but never do. Crash.
No one say first please!
TFG / TheFilipino Gamer First.
I can't read all the previous comments, but a few talk about how the pilots screwed up by not clearly declaring, in straight forward language, that they were in an emergency fuel state. I was in that mess that night, perhaps 30 minutes ahead of Avianca. . I'm not sure of the time, but no more than 30 minutes. My flight was extremely short, arriving from BDL (Windsor Locks, Conn.) We were almost empty but had enough fuel to last for several hours. We were holding on the North side of JFK, not the South as was Avianca. In our holding stack were arrivals from the North Atlantic. An Air India flight was the most vocal in discussing fuel problems. In those discussions, ATC advised all aircraft that Boston would only accept aircraft with CATII or III capability. The plane I was flying was CAT IIIa certified and had just landed at BDL and had to use that equipment as actual CAT III existed there.
Many factors never came to light. The big issue at JFK was the wind and low altitude shear. Holding times and "Expect approach clearance" were being frequently extended for all flights. No reason was given. Pilots in all holding stacks had no idea that 50% of all approaches were resulting in a "miss" due to winds, not low ceilings. Thus the delays were building and fuel planning for all was grossly wrong.
During our approach, at about 500 AGL the turbulence was so bad that it was difficult to read the instruments as they were blurred from our head movement. We were using the autoland CAT III equipment, even though it was not a CATIII approach. The aggressive auto pilot had no problem and at about 200' it was disengaged and we complete the landing visually. The 80 degree cross wind from the left was about 20 knots.
On the way to the hotel that night, we heard about the crash. Poor communication about the missed approaches and why, is a factor that was huge, but never showed up in reports.
This happened due purely to EGO. F/O was a young boi and wanted to play Joe Cool... "I guess so" when asked to go to 3000... his ego had trouble admitting he couldn't go to 3000... young males have a problem saying "no I can't do it" and "I need help!"
2 videos in 1 day? This, is huge!