Ten or so years ago I bought a 13X40 metal lathe from PM. It was many years later before I ever made a serious effort to thread on it. Threading using the thread dial was impossible. In seeking the cause I found that the gear on the thread dial was not the proper number of teeth. It was a 27 tooth instead of a 32. I contacted Matt and told him what I had found and asked to buy the proper gear. My lathe was no longer offered BUT Matt had a custom gear made to the proper specs and sent it to me for free. Lathe was long out of warranty so he could have just told be tuff, but he didn't. To me honest I should have discovered the issue years earlier but I didn't. In my view Matt and his company are first rate. Absolutely no reason not to recommend PM to anyone looking for machine tools! Thanks Matt!
Very good points and review. I was all but convinced of the grizzly but I think I have changed my mind and might be going with the Matthews. Thanks for the video.
I got my PM-25MV about a year ago now and mine came with an R8 drill chuck. Not sure if they changed anything since then, but they came with the machines when i bought them. And I loved this machine, that little brushless motor has a ton of torque.
Wow, this video is FANTASTIC. Exactly what the title says it is, and it is fair, honest, comprehensive, and informative. This vid just ended the agonizing exercise of flipping between web sites and manuals as i fret and ball my fists trying to come to a decision. Information obtained, achievement unlocked, decision made. Thank You!
Very nice video! Thank you! You put a lot of time and effort into showing us the common details that we need to make a decision on not only Grizzly and Precision Matthews but also the details that helps us look at the other manufacture's quality, features, etc in order to determine if their milling machines are just more made in commi china (the world's capital of half-azz products) or if those commi china castings were then taken by the middle-man manufacture to be given the added quality that we would expect for getting what we should which is at least good precision for the parts we make, and in some cases even the very good precision in the parts we make on those machines
I want to thank you so much for making this video I have been trying to decide between these 2 machines and I had been leaning heavily toward the PM and now I will be getting my own PM-25MV it may take a few extra months to be able to buy it, but it is better to buy 1 very good machine than buying an ok machine and then buying the better machine latter thus making the total investment larger thanks again Have a great day and a better tomorrow
Nicely done sir! You gave a comparison that was sorely needed. I've owned several grizzly and precision Matthews machines and let me say- hands down PM is the better product on all fronts. Matt and his wife are the best around and their machines prove it in home shops everyday. Grizzly is a good company and I bought my first lathe from them but PM is the next level. I tear down my machines to a pile of parts, inspect, replace(if needed) and improve, then reassemble before it goes online. My PM machines are super nice for what your paying. I work with all types of machines daily and love clausing, SM, Hardinge, Leblond, and the ubiquitous Bridgeport just to name a few but my home shop(with which earns me side money) stocks Precision Matthews. Don't take my word for it, decide for yourself. Free thinking is the spice of life, or something like that. One last thing....the man makes the machine not the other way around. Life is full of contradictions.
I like your video a lot. A bit lengthy but not boring and it really couldn't be any shorter without eliminating crucial information. The best informative I've seen yet.
I took a trip to Pittsburgh to take a look at some PM machines; arranged ahead of time to look at some of their heavier lathes and was pleasantly surprised at what I found. The owner was a nice guy and seemed like someone I’d like to do business with. As it turned out a used European Made Lathe became available soon after my visit, so I didn’t end up getting a PM, but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy something from him in the future.
Hi Frank... I just happen to re-visit this video again tonight (Sept.10th, 2018) and noticed that you had replied to my coment and question (6 months ago, and directly below this comment / reply) in regards to your suggestion for a mill... so, Very sorry for not responding much sooner to your reply, and in which I thank you for your input, insight and suggestion. Just so you know, I did follow-up on your suggestion on the Grizzly 0704... and I've now had it for nearly 3 months and love it. Other than my own "learning curve" and a few minor foul ups of my own doing, the machine is great and have had No "issues" with it whatsoever... well worth the $1,725. I paid for it... and for my needs, that's for sure. So, Thank You again for your reply and input, much appreciated.
Good video. I am a professional gunsmith/rifle builder and 1000yd competition benchrest shooter. A lot of friends of mine in the same business as me are running PM mills & lathes and are very happy. I hear customer service from Matt is the very best
Wow... seeing the back and forth comparison between the two, the precision matthews looks like a much better machine. The fit and finish is significantly better, but big things like the column mounting, base casting, and precision ground dovetails really make me want to save the extra money and buy the matthews as my first mill. Thanks for posting.
All I can say is THANK YOU. I am in the market for a small mill and was considering Just these two. Having looked at the field, these Harbor Freight Jet.... and I had almost decided on PM. You clinched it...
@@FrancoCNC I bought the PM. and... You are right. I previously had a surplus industrial Jet 16 Mill/drill I somewhat "restored". Weighs a TON has backlash that is unbelievable, cannot cut straight to save my soul, and I would love to drop the damn thing in a lake. By Comparison, the PM is smaller, precise, a dream to work with.. Again, Thank You
Great video! You went into a lot of detail and made a lot of good points! I'll take that PM motor off your hands when you swap it out. It would go great on my SIEG X2 :)
Nice review ! In the market for one of these and you convinced me on the Precision Matthews ! I have been researching Grizzly and have found some issues , not major but enough to check out their competitors ! Thanks
They are both good machines for the money, but I think the PM is a better machine - especially if you are going to do a CNC conversion. And, the belt drive on the PM is really quiet compared to the Grizzly. Have Fun!
The spindle speed pickup is in the head. There is a small opening where debris can get in but very unlikely. Can easily be blocked off. Thanks for the vid and I'm glad I spent the few extra $ for the PM. Matt and Greg were very responsive to all my questions even pre-sales. They also referred me to where to get CNC conversion kit. The extra care in details are very appreciated !
You should add the chuck cost to the PM unit (or at least mention it) since it is included on the G0704. The PM looks to be better in a lot of important ways but good to know the full $ difference. looks like PM has 4 chucks available which range 70-130$. Any idea which one would compare to the one shipped on the G0704?
A rare view of comparison, side by side. this was great, I have been leaning towards the Precision Mathews anyway, but this helps. Grizzly seems a bit cruder.
Informative video. I am (or was) interested in buying a mini mill for my fab business. After watching a few videos about the idiosyncrasies of the import machines, it seems my best course of action is, for now, to keep outsourcing machine work until I can swing a full size mill. Total cost-out for an import machine big enough to actually do something is only slightly cheaper than a used older US made machine. Tooling is about the same. Hard to find a full size machine that runs on 240 single phase but they are out there. Thanks again.
Great video. I had been considering a Grizzly mill, but after watching this and reading up on Precision Matthews, I decided to buy A PM-25 instead. I just ordered it- And can't wait 'till it arrives... I also bought a 1030V lathe, too... I am sure it'll put my old 9" atlas to shame. You should get a commission :)
Like a kid getting a new toy. Been there done that. We decided to buy a 2nd hand mill. Almost buying blind. Yeah we went to see it it first, got a brief tour by the owner and came home. The day after, Dad said well, do we buy the mill ? (£800) and I said "We'd be stupid not to." So we got the mill. No new toy excitement and neither of us rushed to 'play' with it. We've got a good but small lathe - suits us and this mill. Maybe 9-12 months ago, I started watching machining videos. I soon found Abom79 and Keith at Vintage Machinery and found a few home shops with toys like featured in this video. I knew which ball-park my mill was in - so more interest developed with Adam & Keith. Over the months, I began to appreciate my mill more and more. The beloved Bridgeport was the first to go - with its cheap electric power feed drive - only one, somewhere, had power feed on all 3 axes. I think they all had it on X. Like a bolt-on afterthought. Well, I guess the Bridgeport is a great place to start for 'my first mill' But it's not in the K&T or Cincinnatti league. It's a very good toy for the dabblers. It has useful features but it doesn't tick the box. I like both the Cin & the K&T. Proper milling machines yet not a match for mine. I love mine now far more than I ever did for 25 years of ownership. It might not have the power of Keith & Adams' mills - they have 50 tapers, mine's only 40. But there are little features on mine that those lesser mills don't have - and so far, no other mill has impressed me more (not including CNC) and I'm sort of wondering if there is any better machine 'out there' that's a simple manual universal mill. And, I've still to reveal 2 secrets it has to see whether they're of any much value.
This is a well-documented comparison. It's not just a talking head video; you actually get to see video of the features being compared. This video preference makes it much easier to understand and relate to.
For the record on the head mount for the PM if the center is actually an alignment pin that would be a better design. Bolts dont align things precisely, but pins do. Besides you should get more than enough clamping forde outta the 3 quality bolts. Thank you for this video! I know it may be a few years old, but still useful!
just looking at the two it appears the Precision Mathews looks like better quality. Thanks for the in depth review. really great side by side comparison
You are welcome. I'd say the PM is better than the Grizzly. I just took the PM spindle apart and found it to have German made bearings - the Grizzly had Chinese bearings. The Grizzly is OK and a great value, but I think the PM machines are slightly better in nearly all aspects (except for the paint job).
I bought a PM1440HD lathe last fall and their customer support has been very good. Nice machine also. They replaced the Chinese motor before shipping with a Polish made one. Don't know if that was due to my ordering 3 phase or no faith in Chinese motors. It took many months to get the machine so there was plenty of time to get 3 phase from China.
Very nice comparison and I completely agree the PM25 is a more capable machine. I purchased mine two years ago and I'm glad I did. BTW, the spindle indexer is behind the cover plate with the SN and Date of Mfg. Nice Work!
I owned a G704 and it was nothing but trouble. 2 Motors (one under warranty). Gears were terrible. Also parts are not always in stock. I had to wait 8 weeks for a replacement montor. I finally converted it to a treadmill motor, and then sold it. Matt at PM is great to deal with. I have a PM1236 lathe and I love it!
Please post your conversion here. I have a PM-25V still in the box in my garage that I am adding some clearpaths servos to. Hoping to get started this summer. Looking forward to see how yours goes.
I have a PM 10/22 lathe and am very happy with it. This mill will replace my "other" bench mill! But if I had the $ I would get an old Bridgeport with a MILLPOWER CNC conversion!
I was a little confused when you started talking about "ball-whalers" until a little later when you started to talk a little clearer! hahahahahaha just a difference in accents I expect. Great comparison though, very informative- thanks.
thx for the video, will be looking forward to your CNC a conversation, I think both the machines are running DC spindle motors. we just made a little driver card for a client in USA to run the dc spindle directly from MASSO
That's awesome! You know what - I'm sitting here this morning wrestling with Mach 4 and a motion control board software/plugin/interface problem. Now that you've implemented canned cycles, I'm a second away from buying a MASSO. A few questions: (1) Do you handle backlash compensation? (2) Does your trajectory planning account for the compensation and synchronize all the axis while the compensation is being applied? (3) Can you handle threading for lathe applications? Thanks.
I was wondering if you could use the Precision Matthew's to do Maching Chevy small block heads. I'm just Curious if it could be used for that reason like enlarging valve spring sockets.
Not sure if the prices have changed but the site now shows $1,399 for the PM-25MV without stand and $170 for the stand. Add in $150 + $50 for lift gate and we are at $1,770 vs $1,360 which is a $410 difference. I find it really hard to justify the additional money at that point when a much beefier ZX32 is about the same price shipped. I would also be interested in seeing the casting thickness differences between the two. I found that on my PM45M CNC(factory CNC version) the castings were thinner in quite a few places when compared to some other models such as the original RF45, some ZX45s and Enco variations. I really do like this machine and tend to believe the belt drive and possibly spindle may exceed the design of most RF45 clones but the pricing just seems off by about $200 considering the ZX32 is available for $1,650 shipped and weighs 511 lbs vs 265 lbs.
Hi. I'm not extremely familiar with the RF45 machine. I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who wants to do a CNC conversion. The Grizzly G0704 seems to be the baseline for bench top mill CNC conversions. Compared to the G0704, the PM25-MV is a much better. It does cost more money, but the construction is better and the machine is easier to retro-fit into a CNC. The time you save grinding down castings and hardened ball nuts is well worth the difference in price (in my opinion). Another point to consider is the spindle configuration. Most CNC guys need more than 2250 RPM. The belt drive configuration is much easier to upgrade to higher RPM than the geared head. To your point, if I were only interested in manual machining, I'd also check out the geared head machines.
Does the cabinet for the Precision Matthews have a way to bolt it to the floor? I saw a square hole on the side and was wondering if it was an inset for a bolt. Great comparison. I have been looking for a bench top mill for a while and this helps a lot.
I watched the whole show waiting for the details. How well do they mill? Can you make a tolerance better with one? It was like reviewing a car without ever driving it.
Have you done the 3Ph motor upgrade to the PM-25MV yet? I'm interested in if you still have the original BLDC motor and controller available? I have a Sieg X3 I'd like to convert to a 1HP direct belt drive. Would be you be interested in parting with it original motor if available?
Hi Frank, Good Comparison, between the Two I see a lot of similarities between the PM25V and My PM 727m, Same quality construction Column mount Ways and beefiness. Albeit quite a bite smaller than the PM727M The PM25V looks to be a Better machine than the G0704. And you cant beat the service you get from Quality Machine Tools Matt always responds to emails well worth the extra $280
The PM727M looks to be worth the extra money over the PM25. Same size table, but much more robust saddle assembly, which should result in a more rigid machine. That said, the PM25V is a nice machine too, the only thing I see the G0704 has over it is that the X-axis way area on the saddle looks more robust than on the PM25V.
I Agree and if it's variable speed you wish for Matt now offers a PM727V version for $100 more that has a 2 hp variable speed DC motor. connected to the same Gearbox but increased speeds p to 3 k If I recall. Although the tables are similar in size the 727 table is beefier.
Nice comparison and I'll share it with a couple of people I know who are currently shopping. You brought up the column difference (7:20). Let us know later if this makes a difference, perhaps in ease of tramming or rigidity. The column attachment method is the reason I selected the PM25
Nice review! I will say that ground ways are not necessarily better than machined. I have machined ways on a Bridgeport before and they are as accurate as a ground way. The surface finish too, if you use a sharp dovetail cutter and slow speed, is also excellent. One 4140HT part I even fly cut and the opposite faces were parallel within 0.0002” across 4”. And the surface finish was spectacular.
Hi. I designed the conversion myself. Here is the design: ruclips.net/video/FR6Na9ZWmLs/видео.html As far as accuracy, I'd say any CNC conversion will only be limited by the backlash. I'm comping about .0012" on X and Y. I think I could improve that if I purchased diaphragm style couplings.
It would like to know how difficult it is to tram the Precision Matthews compared to the Grizzly. Also,, after use, how well does the Precision Matthews stay in tram compared to the Grizzly.?
My G704 had a gear driven spindle and a soft screw as a key for the R-8 . Needed a spindle disassembly to replace the screw. I replaced drive gears 3 times before I sold the G704.
Hi. I've converted it to CNC so most of my videos are oriented towards that and not so much manual use. But, I can say that I really like the machine and I'm glad I purchased it.
Wish we could get these here in the UK. I ended up getting a G0704 clone (AMA25LV) im happy with it as a manual mill really, its nice and rigid and cuts well, but doing a CNC conversion is going to be a pain in the bum. Thankfully I can just mock up some parts with a 3D printer before committing to machining them.
Excellent. I wish there were more comparisons of machines from different companies. I do want to add a note about Grizzly. I have a G0463 Grizzly mill. When I set it up and followed the direction for running it during the break-in period, it would not run. I tried everything 3 times. It didn't run. I contacted Grizzly and they sent me a new part. It still didn't run. They sent me another new and different part. Still no luck. Then I stumbled onto the problem. The order in which one activated the On/Off switch, the direction control, and the speed control is important. The manual had the order incorrect. I contacted Grizzly about the error. So far after over 3 years, they have not corrected the PDF file of their manual. I don't understand. That's a 10 minute, or less, operation.
Thank you for doing this video. I had already made up my mind about getting a Matthews before I watched this video and really only was checking it out to see someone talk about the machine in general. Now after watching this video I am now more convinced about getting a Matthews. Though I plan on getting a PM727. I was wondering do you have any advice on a 6" vise and what collet set to get? I was looking at PM's Ultra Precision collet set. Do you have any input on those? Thanks again for taking the time to do videos like these. I know that they can take a lot of time to do just to help out people like me so I appreciate you taking the time.
Hi. I'm glad you find the videos helpful. I've purchased the "cheap" grey vises from PM and they have been pretty good. I'm sure the blue ones are better but I haven't used one of them. I also used the 4" version of the vise because I felt if fit on the table perfectly - but I'm sure the 6" vise with also work just fine on the PM727. If you are going to use the machine to do manual milling then it's worth the money to just buy the more expensive set that increments in 1/64". There are a few sizes that you'll use often and the others will spend most of their life in the rack. But, when you need to work you won't have to worry about having the right size collet - it will just be there waiting for you.
The mount of the heads, the PM has a pin to hold location, and rotates on the pin. If the Grizzley has a bolt in the center, it will have some slope or unwanted movement that is not repeatable. This is assuming there is a pin in the PM.
I have the PM-25MV Mill, and absolutely adore it, worth every penny. Some thoughts: I paid the extra for inside delivery, driver was courteous and pleased to set it down exactly where I wanted. Setup and workstand installation for me was a one- person affair, but I have much experience in heavy equipment movement, so two people would be best for the novice machine installer. We (users) are now adding "angel eyes" to our mills, the PM flat wrench is more friendly to the LED lamp cluster than a bulky spanner wrench which could impact the light fixture. I machine easy stuff like aluminum, brass, plastic etc. I have swapped out the 15 amp line fuse for a 6 amp one, I just like the edge it gives on fast blow time to protect my motor and electronics. I made my own wide custom stand from stout lumber, it works well enough, but even that robust design will break into oscillation if you move the table handwheels very fast, translation: sway. If possible, install the mill up against a wall and brace it thusly, I don't have that option, it being in the middle of my garage. The belt drive change station, it's a little cumbersome, you have to loosen 4 screws then lift off the cover to change the belt position. I've got an idea to at least modify the cover with a tool-less quick release system based on either window locks or luggage snaps. Shop project #837.☺ The vernier scales on the handwheels are very accurately set out and are really usable for dialing in any desired movement. For the $300 price difference (I paid), the value is most certainly there with the PM25 and the enthusiastic support is always available. The 4 bolt pattern on the column base flange allows one to precisely set it's tram as shown in Stefan Gotteswinter's video: ruclips.net/video/U7Qs-J2swIc/видео.html I'm not sure if one can do that procedure on the Grizzly machine as elegantly simple either. And finally, I would love to see someone do a video on lubrication for the mill, I still can't easily access the (Z) column lead screw to oil it with any great confidence since the bellows does such a magnificent job of protecting it. Your quick tour in fact showed me a couple of lube ports I wasn't aware of either. Excellently done Franco, this is a well balanced, non- tendentious review, thanks.
There is no comparison between the beefiness of the 2 machine machines the PM wins handles down. I've been looking at picking up a bench top mill and this had a lot of useful information.
Nice comparison. I think a more fair comparison would be the G0705 though, which is $1639 after freight shipping, and significantly beefier (848lbs), and upgraded nearly everything.
A few things: The PM is now 1699 + 169 shipping + 49 lift gate +169 stand. The DRO model is 600 extra. The Grizzly is 1495 (1350 on sale) stand included + 115 freight + about 50 lift gate. That difference is now a lot more than 200! I look at the PM and I recognize quiet a few Chinese parts. It may be assembled in the US. But I suspect it is also made in China. A lot of the pluses awarded to the PM are taste preferences or just plain quirks. Who cares about the clearance for CNC conversion. You only have to pass cables once. Precision ground is not necessarily better than machined if the machining is done right. Oh! I also think the base on the PM looks better. But that doesn't mean it is better. It's a casting. The top surface is not required to be flat. In fact, the top of most cast parts is usually made non-flat intentionally. The attachment of the column to the base also looks better on the PM. But again, the Grizzly attachment is just as good, if not as pretty. As you can guess, I have a 704. I do like a few things about the PM better. But none of those things, except maybe for the Z travel make it a better mill IMHO. So then, I would be happy with either one. But the price means everything!
It looked like the lead screw on the grizzly was 1/10 pitch and the matthews was 1/20. (guess from the video picture) I wonder if the screws are both hardened. This has a LOT to do with how long backlash adjustments will be satisfactory.
like the video I would like the Precision Matthews if I had the money The head bolts they are the same? the Grizzly may have 4 bolts but one is the centre bolt and 3 locking bolts Matthews has a centre pin! and 3 locking bolts.
Наука
Ten or so years ago I bought a 13X40 metal lathe from PM. It was many years later before I ever made a serious effort to thread on it. Threading using the thread dial was impossible. In seeking the cause I found that the gear on the thread dial was not the proper number of teeth. It was a 27 tooth instead of a 32. I contacted Matt and told him what I had found and asked to buy the proper gear. My lathe was no longer offered BUT Matt had a custom gear made to the proper specs and sent it to me for free. Lathe was long out of warranty so he could have just told be tuff, but he didn't. To me honest I should have discovered the issue years earlier but I didn't. In my view Matt and his company are first rate. Absolutely no reason not to recommend PM to anyone looking for machine tools! Thanks Matt!
Yeah, they are good people.
Wow, excellent to know! Thank you.
This is has been the most helpful video I have seen in a while
I have a PM on the way. This video helped me decide. Thank you.
Good unbiased review.
An important video for would be buyers and even window shoppers!
Thanks for the video!
Very good points and review. I was all but convinced of the grizzly but I think I have changed my mind and might be going with the Matthews. Thanks for the video.
I got my PM-25MV about a year ago now and mine came with an R8 drill chuck. Not sure if they changed anything since then, but they came with the machines when i bought them. And I loved this machine, that little brushless motor has a ton of torque.
Wow, this video is FANTASTIC. Exactly what the title says it is, and it is fair, honest, comprehensive, and informative. This vid just ended the agonizing exercise of flipping between web sites and manuals as i fret and ball my fists trying to come to a decision. Information obtained, achievement unlocked, decision made. Thank You!
Awesome video. Precision Matthew's needs to put you on payroll.
I'll say....
I just ordered one of these. Although I did order it after watching this video.
instaBlaster
Surprised to see you here. But also very fitting of you lmao
I'm glad I found this video. Pretty sure you just changed my mind on what machine to get. Thanks!
Very nice video! Thank you!
You put a lot of time and effort into showing us the common details that we need to make a decision on not only Grizzly and Precision Matthews but also the details that helps us look at the other manufacture's quality, features, etc in order to determine if their milling machines are just more made in commi china (the world's capital of half-azz products) or if those commi china castings were then taken by the middle-man manufacture to be given the added quality that we would expect for getting what we should which is at least good precision for the parts we make, and in some cases even the very good precision in the parts we make on those machines
What a wonderful DOWN TO EARTH review!! Thank you very much Sir.
Art from Ohio
I want to thank you so much for making this video I have been trying to decide between these 2 machines and I had been leaning heavily toward the PM and now I will be getting my own PM-25MV it may take a few extra months to be able to buy it, but it is better to buy 1 very good machine than buying an ok machine and then buying the better machine latter thus making the total investment larger thanks again
Have a great day and a better tomorrow
Awesome! I'm glad you found this to be helpful.
Nicely done sir! You gave a comparison that was sorely needed. I've owned several grizzly and precision Matthews machines and let me say- hands down PM is the better product on all fronts. Matt and his wife are the best around and their machines prove it in home shops everyday. Grizzly is a good company and I bought my first lathe from them but PM is the next level. I tear down my machines to a pile of parts, inspect, replace(if needed) and improve, then reassemble before it goes online. My PM machines are super nice for what your paying. I work with all types of machines daily and love clausing, SM, Hardinge, Leblond, and the ubiquitous Bridgeport just to name a few but my home shop(with which earns me side money) stocks Precision Matthews. Don't take my word for it, decide for yourself. Free thinking is the spice of life, or something like that. One last thing....the man makes the machine not the other way around. Life is full of contradictions.
Wow! Such detail...
Really great info for someone(me) considering purchasing a Benchtop Mill..
Thank you 😊🏁
I like your video a lot. A bit lengthy but not boring and it really couldn't be any shorter without eliminating crucial information. The best informative I've seen yet.
Billy Kranston I would nix "according to". Just make a blanket statement, that all specs shared are per the manufacturer.
Billy Kranston Thanks.
I'm willing to bet if he didn't begin and end every sentence with Precision Matthews he could cut 5 minutes from the video
Thank you! I had decided on Grizzly but your video has me rethinking my decision.
Grizzly G0704 Mill vs Precision Matthews PM-25MV Mill
I took a trip to Pittsburgh to take a look at some PM machines; arranged ahead of time to look at some of their heavier lathes and was pleasantly surprised at what I found. The owner was a nice guy and seemed like someone I’d like to do business with. As it turned out a used European Made Lathe became available soon after my visit, so I didn’t end up getting a PM, but I wouldn’t hesitate to buy something from him in the future.
Excellent comparison, thanks for posting
Hi Frank... I just happen to re-visit this video again tonight (Sept.10th, 2018) and noticed that you had replied to my coment and question (6 months ago, and directly below this comment / reply) in regards to your suggestion for a mill... so, Very sorry for not responding much sooner to your reply, and in which I thank you for your input, insight and suggestion.
Just so you know, I did follow-up on your suggestion on the Grizzly 0704... and I've now had it for nearly 3 months and love it. Other than my own "learning curve" and a few minor foul ups of my own doing, the machine is great and have had No "issues" with it whatsoever... well worth the $1,725. I paid for it... and for my needs, that's for sure. So, Thank You again for your reply and input,
much appreciated.
Thank you for taking the time to compare these machines. 👍👍
Good video. I am a professional gunsmith/rifle builder and 1000yd competition benchrest shooter. A lot of friends of mine in the same business as me are running PM mills & lathes and are very happy. I hear customer service from Matt is the very best
Wow... seeing the back and forth comparison between the two, the precision matthews looks like a much better machine. The fit and finish is significantly better, but big things like the column mounting, base casting, and precision ground dovetails really make me want to save the extra money and buy the matthews as my first mill. Thanks for posting.
Learning the Hard Way I'm glad you liked the video. The Grizzly is good but the PM25MV is better. The table is also beefier than the Grizzly.
All I can say is THANK YOU. I am in the market for a small mill and was considering Just these two. Having looked at the field, these Harbor Freight Jet.... and I had almost decided on PM. You clinched it...
When you are looking at machines in this price range, it's hard to beat the PM.
@@FrancoCNC I bought the PM. and... You are right. I previously had a surplus industrial Jet 16 Mill/drill I somewhat "restored". Weighs a TON has backlash that is unbelievable, cannot cut straight to save my soul, and I would love to drop the damn thing in a lake. By Comparison, the PM is smaller, precise, a dream to work with..
Again, Thank You
@@pilgrimm23 You are welcome. I'm happy I could help.
This is awesome mill I got mine two years ago could not be more happy just a few up grades X power feed and a DRO
Great video! You went into a lot of detail and made a lot of good points! I'll take that PM motor off your hands when you swap it out. It would go great on my SIEG X2 :)
Nice review ! In the market for one of these and you convinced me on the Precision Matthews ! I have been researching Grizzly and have found some issues , not major but enough to check out their competitors ! Thanks
They are both good machines for the money, but I think the PM is a better machine - especially if you are going to do a CNC conversion. And, the belt drive on the PM is really quiet compared to the Grizzly. Have Fun!
I will ! This has been a long research for me and you sealed the deal ! Again kudos again to you Franco ! Thanks ! Robert
The spindle speed pickup is in the head. There is a small opening where debris can get in but very unlikely. Can easily be blocked off. Thanks for the vid and I'm glad I spent the few extra $ for the PM. Matt and Greg were very responsive to all my questions even pre-sales. They also referred me to where to get CNC conversion kit. The extra care in details are very appreciated !
Jim C Which conversion kit did they recommend?
Take a look at Arizonavideo99 for PM25 and PM30 CNC conversion kits. Reply to Dave via FB.
You should add the chuck cost to the PM unit (or at least mention it) since it is included on the G0704. The PM looks to be better in a lot of important ways but good to know the full $ difference. looks like PM has 4 chucks available which range 70-130$. Any idea which one would compare to the one shipped on the G0704?
Thank you for this great video!
A rare view of comparison, side by side. this was great, I have been leaning towards the Precision Mathews anyway, but this helps. Grizzly seems a bit cruder.
Informative video. I am (or was) interested in buying a mini mill for my fab business. After watching a few videos about the idiosyncrasies of the import machines, it seems my best course of action is, for now, to keep outsourcing machine work until I can swing a full size mill. Total cost-out for an import machine big enough to actually do something is only slightly cheaper than a used older US made machine. Tooling is about the same. Hard to find a full size machine that runs on 240 single phase but they are out there. Thanks again.
Thanks Frank. I know It's been a while but anybody knows which of these mills the SX2.7 SIEG could be compared to?
Great video. I had been considering a Grizzly mill, but after watching this and reading up on Precision Matthews, I decided to buy A PM-25 instead. I just ordered it- And can't wait 'till it arrives...
I also bought a 1030V lathe, too... I am sure it'll put my old 9" atlas to shame.
You should get a commission :)
Like a kid getting a new toy. Been there done that.
We decided to buy a 2nd hand mill. Almost buying blind. Yeah we went to see it it first, got a brief tour by the owner and came home. The day after, Dad said well, do we buy the mill ? (£800) and I said "We'd be stupid not to."
So we got the mill. No new toy excitement and neither of us rushed to 'play' with it.
We've got a good but small lathe - suits us and this mill.
Maybe 9-12 months ago, I started watching machining videos. I soon found Abom79 and Keith at Vintage Machinery and found a few home shops with toys like featured in this video. I knew which ball-park my mill was in - so more interest developed with Adam & Keith. Over the months, I began to appreciate my mill more and more. The beloved Bridgeport was the first to go - with its cheap electric power feed drive - only one, somewhere, had power feed on all 3 axes. I think they all had it on X. Like a bolt-on afterthought. Well, I guess the Bridgeport is a great place to start for 'my first mill' But it's not in the K&T or Cincinnatti league. It's a very good toy for the dabblers. It has useful features but it doesn't tick the box. I like both the Cin & the K&T. Proper milling machines yet not a match for mine. I love mine now far more than I ever did for 25 years of ownership. It might not have the power of Keith & Adams' mills - they have 50 tapers, mine's only 40. But there are little features on mine that those lesser mills don't have - and so far, no other mill has impressed me more (not including CNC) and I'm sort of wondering if there is any better machine 'out there' that's a simple manual universal mill. And, I've still to reveal 2 secrets it has to see whether they're of any much value.
You should get paid by PM, I had a grizzly mill in my cart at the beginning of this video. I just purchased the PM-727V.
This is a well-documented comparison. It's not just a talking head video; you actually get to see video of the features being compared. This video preference makes it much easier to understand and relate to.
Only a machinists' precision can make a comparison as well as this! Thanks a lot!
You are welcome. Thanks for watching.
For the record on the head mount for the PM if the center is actually an alignment pin that would be a better design. Bolts dont align things precisely, but pins do. Besides you should get more than enough clamping forde outta the 3 quality bolts. Thank you for this video! I know it may be a few years old, but still useful!
I would love to have either but can't afford, nice comparison thank you.
This was a really great video, thank you
Thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
just looking at the two it appears the Precision Mathews looks like better quality. Thanks for the in depth review. really great side by side comparison
You are welcome. I'd say the PM is better than the Grizzly. I just took the PM spindle apart and found it to have German made bearings - the Grizzly had Chinese bearings. The Grizzly is OK and a great value, but I think the PM machines are slightly better in nearly all aspects (except for the paint job).
I bought a PM1440HD lathe last fall and their customer support has been very good. Nice machine also. They replaced the Chinese motor before shipping with a Polish made one. Don't know if that was due to my ordering 3 phase or no faith in Chinese motors. It took many months to get the machine so there was plenty of time to get 3 phase from China.
In the end it boils down to how tight is it?
Thank you! Just as I would expect. You usually get what you pay for these days in the entry level machine tools😎
Very nice comparison and I completely agree the PM25 is a more capable machine. I purchased mine two years ago and I'm glad I did. BTW, the spindle indexer is behind the cover plate with the SN and Date of Mfg. Nice Work!
Thanks for the tip.
I owned a G704 and it was nothing but trouble. 2 Motors (one under warranty). Gears were terrible. Also parts are not always in stock. I had to wait 8 weeks for a replacement montor. I finally converted it to a treadmill motor, and then sold it. Matt at PM is great to deal with. I have a PM1236 lathe and I love it!
My Grizzly stuff has been OK but I do like the PM machines better. Also, a much smaller company - you actually get to interact with the owner at PM.
Please post your conversion here. I have a PM-25V still in the box in my garage that I am adding some clearpaths servos to. Hoping to get started this summer. Looking forward to see how yours goes.
Cool. I'll make sure I post some videos once I get started.
Very helpful, thank you!
Great video, lots of information, thanks
I'm glad you found it helpful.
I have a PM 10/22 lathe and am very happy with it. This mill will replace my "other" bench mill! But if I had the $ I would get an old Bridgeport with a MILLPOWER CNC conversion!
I was a little confused when you started talking about "ball-whalers" until a little later when you started to talk a little clearer! hahahahahaha just a difference in accents I expect. Great comparison though, very informative- thanks.
thx for the video, will be looking forward to your CNC a conversation, I think both the machines are running DC spindle motors. we just made a little driver card for a client in USA to run the dc spindle directly from MASSO
That's awesome! You know what - I'm sitting here this morning wrestling with Mach 4 and a motion control board software/plugin/interface problem. Now that you've implemented canned cycles, I'm a second away from buying a MASSO. A few questions: (1) Do you handle backlash compensation? (2) Does your trajectory planning account for the compensation and synchronize all the axis while the compensation is being applied? (3) Can you handle threading for lathe applications? Thanks.
Masso CNC Controllers Hi. do you have an updated list of supported M and G codes for the MASSO?
Great comparison. Thank you.
Very informative thanks 😊
Column mounting alone is shockingly suspect on the grizzly.
I was wondering if you could use the Precision Matthew's to do Maching Chevy small block heads. I'm just Curious if it could be used for that reason like enlarging valve spring sockets.
What kind of CNC molds can you do the Precision. Wondering if you can do a CNC mold as per say worm molds
As of July 2019, cost (company website) with shipping: G0740 = $1,638., PM-25 = $2,119. Difference =$481. +30%. Worth it?
You had me at "BALL OILER"
Not sure if the prices have changed but the site now shows $1,399 for the PM-25MV without stand and $170 for the stand. Add in $150 + $50 for lift gate and we are at $1,770 vs $1,360 which is a $410 difference. I find it really hard to justify the additional money at that point when a much beefier ZX32 is about the same price shipped.
I would also be interested in seeing the casting thickness differences between the two. I found that on my PM45M CNC(factory CNC version) the castings were thinner in quite a few places when compared to some other models such as the original RF45, some ZX45s and Enco variations. I really do like this machine and tend to believe the belt drive and possibly spindle may exceed the design of most RF45 clones but the pricing just seems off by about $200 considering the ZX32 is available for $1,650 shipped and weighs 511 lbs vs 265 lbs.
Hi. I'm not extremely familiar with the RF45 machine. I'm looking at this from the point of view of someone who wants to do a CNC conversion. The Grizzly G0704 seems to be the baseline for bench top mill CNC conversions. Compared to the G0704, the PM25-MV is a much better. It does cost more money, but the construction is better and the machine is easier to retro-fit into a CNC. The time you save grinding down castings and hardened ball nuts is well worth the difference in price (in my opinion). Another point to consider is the spindle configuration. Most CNC guys need more than 2250 RPM. The belt drive configuration is much easier to upgrade to higher RPM than the geared head. To your point, if I were only interested in manual machining, I'd also check out the geared head machines.
Does the cabinet for the Precision Matthews have a way to bolt it to the floor? I saw a square hole on the side and was wondering if it was an inset for a bolt.
Great comparison. I have been looking for a bench top mill for a while and this helps a lot.
Hi Robert. Yes it does. There are two slots (one on each side) where you can bolt it to the floor. Thanks for watching.
Good comparison. Thank you.
How about the backlash? adjustment? and smoothness of cranking? thank you
PM machines are also available with factory installed DRO and other probably higher quality options.
Great video. Nothing but the facts. Thanks.
I watched the whole show waiting for the details. How well do they mill? Can you make a tolerance better with one? It was like reviewing a car without ever driving it.
Have you done the 3Ph motor upgrade to the PM-25MV yet? I'm interested in if you still have the original BLDC motor and controller available? I have a Sieg X3 I'd like to convert to a 1HP direct belt drive. Would be you be interested in parting with it original motor if available?
Hi Frank,
Good Comparison, between the Two I see a lot of similarities between the PM25V and My PM 727m,
Same quality construction Column mount Ways and beefiness. Albeit quite a bite smaller than the PM727M The PM25V looks to be a Better machine than the G0704. And you cant beat the service you get from Quality Machine Tools Matt always responds to emails well worth the extra $280
Thanks. I have high hopes for the PM-25MV.
The PM727M looks to be worth the extra money over the PM25. Same size table, but much more robust saddle assembly, which should result in a more rigid machine. That said, the PM25V is a nice machine too, the only thing I see the G0704 has over it is that the X-axis way area on the saddle looks more robust than on the PM25V.
I Agree and if it's variable speed you wish for Matt now offers a PM727V version for $100 more that has a 2 hp variable speed DC motor. connected to the same Gearbox but increased speeds p to 3 k If I recall.
Although the tables are similar in size the 727 table is beefier.
WHJeffB I agree that the 727 is probably better but it's also a lot taller! It won't fit in my basement thats for sure!
How is the rigidity on the PM? How deep can you cut steel without chatter with say a 1/4 end mill?
Nowhere on the PM website product description does it say the slideways are ground.
very informative, thank you.
Awesome video, very informative comparison. Liked, subscribed & all notifications activated. Thanks
Nice comparison and I'll share it with a couple of people I know who are currently shopping. You brought up the column difference (7:20). Let us know later if this makes a difference, perhaps in ease of tramming or rigidity. The column attachment method is the reason I selected the PM25
the comparison SUCKS... if he just had some knowledge before .. I would have my sure thing Respect.
Very helpful. As a whole the PM completely outclasses the Grizzly.
Like the one to one comparison. Thanks.
Matt at PM is the best!!!! I have a PM 1440 l love it
Nice review! I will say that ground ways are not necessarily better than machined. I have machined ways on a Bridgeport before and they are as accurate as a ground way. The surface finish too, if you use a sharp dovetail cutter and slow speed, is also excellent. One 4140HT part I even fly cut and the opposite faces were parallel within 0.0002” across 4”. And the surface finish was spectacular.
Thanks for the review. What CNC upgrade did you put on the pm25? How accurate is it?
Hi. I designed the conversion myself. Here is the design: ruclips.net/video/FR6Na9ZWmLs/видео.html
As far as accuracy, I'd say any CNC conversion will only be limited by the backlash. I'm comping about .0012" on X and Y. I think I could improve that if I purchased diaphragm style couplings.
It would like to know how difficult it is to tram the Precision Matthews compared to the Grizzly. Also,, after use, how well does the Precision Matthews stay in tram compared to the Grizzly.?
I wish PM would make some CNC mills again, I'm ready to buy another!
What do they cost to retro fit? I'm curious.
My G704 had a gear driven spindle and a soft screw as a key for the R-8 . Needed a spindle disassembly to replace the screw. I replaced drive gears 3 times before I sold the G704.
Now that you've had some time with the new machine, are you going to do a more in depth review of operations?
Hi. I've converted it to CNC so most of my videos are oriented towards that and not so much manual use. But, I can say that I really like the machine and I'm glad I purchased it.
The Grizzly G0759 I received today looks to have ground ways, but the head tilt area looks hand scraped.
Wish we could get these here in the UK. I ended up getting a G0704 clone (AMA25LV) im happy with it as a manual mill really, its nice and rigid and cuts well, but doing a CNC conversion is going to be a pain in the bum. Thankfully I can just mock up some parts with a 3D printer before committing to machining them.
Excellent. I wish there were more comparisons of machines from different companies. I do want to add a note about Grizzly. I have a G0463 Grizzly mill. When I set it up and followed the direction for running it during the break-in period, it would not run. I tried everything 3 times. It didn't run. I contacted Grizzly and they sent me a new part. It still didn't run. They sent me another new and different part. Still no luck. Then I stumbled onto the problem. The order in which one activated the On/Off switch, the direction control, and the speed control is important. The manual had the order incorrect. I contacted Grizzly about the error. So far after over 3 years, they have not corrected the PDF file of their manual. I don't understand. That's a 10 minute, or less, operation.
Thank you for doing this video. I had already made up my mind about getting a Matthews before I watched this video and really only was checking it out to see someone talk about the machine in general. Now after watching this video I am now more convinced about getting a Matthews. Though I plan on getting a PM727. I was wondering do you have any advice on a 6" vise and what collet set to get? I was looking at PM's Ultra Precision collet set. Do you have any input on those? Thanks again for taking the time to do videos like these. I know that they can take a lot of time to do just to help out people like me so I appreciate you taking the time.
Hi. I'm glad you find the videos helpful. I've purchased the "cheap" grey vises from PM and they have been pretty good. I'm sure the blue ones are better but I haven't used one of them. I also used the 4" version of the vise because I felt if fit on the table perfectly - but I'm sure the 6" vise with also work just fine on the PM727. If you are going to use the machine to do manual milling then it's worth the money to just buy the more expensive set that increments in 1/64". There are a few sizes that you'll use often and the others will spend most of their life in the rack. But, when you need to work you won't have to worry about having the right size collet - it will just be there waiting for you.
Thanks for the video 👍
You are welcome.
I didn't know I needed one of these tools, but as soon as I order one, it'll be the Precision Matthews!!!
The mount of the heads, the PM has a pin to hold location, and rotates on the pin. If the Grizzley has a bolt in the center, it will have some slope or unwanted movement that is not repeatable. This is assuming there is a pin in the PM.
Thanks helped alot
I have the PM-25MV Mill, and absolutely adore it, worth every penny. Some thoughts:
I paid the extra for inside delivery, driver was courteous and pleased to set it down exactly where I wanted. Setup and workstand installation for me was a one- person affair, but I have much experience in heavy equipment movement, so two people would be best for the novice machine installer.
We (users) are now adding "angel eyes" to our mills, the PM flat wrench is more friendly to the LED lamp cluster than a bulky spanner wrench which could impact the light fixture.
I machine easy stuff like aluminum, brass, plastic etc. I have swapped out the 15 amp line fuse for a 6 amp one, I just like the edge it gives on fast blow time to protect my motor and electronics.
I made my own wide custom stand from stout lumber, it works well enough, but even that robust design will break into oscillation if you move the table handwheels very fast, translation: sway. If possible, install the mill up against a wall and brace it thusly, I don't have that option, it being in the middle of my garage.
The belt drive change station, it's a little cumbersome, you have to loosen 4 screws then lift off the cover to change the belt position. I've got an idea to at least modify the cover with a tool-less quick release system based on either window locks or luggage snaps. Shop project #837.☺
The vernier scales on the handwheels are very accurately set out and are really usable for dialing in any desired movement.
For the $300 price difference (I paid), the value is most certainly there with the PM25 and the enthusiastic support is always available.
The 4 bolt pattern on the column base flange allows one to precisely set it's tram as shown in Stefan Gotteswinter's video:
ruclips.net/video/U7Qs-J2swIc/видео.html
I'm not sure if one can do that procedure on the Grizzly machine as elegantly simple either.
And finally, I would love to see someone do a video on lubrication for the mill, I still can't easily access the (Z) column lead screw to oil it with any great confidence since the bellows does such a magnificent job of protecting it. Your quick tour in fact showed me a couple of lube ports I wasn't aware of either.
Excellently done Franco, this is a well balanced, non- tendentious review, thanks.
What will the cost to convert to CNC comparison be? Is a CNC conversion available from Precision Mathews?
This guy may be able to help you out: ruclips.net/user/ArizonaVideo99
There is no comparison between the beefiness of the 2 machine machines the PM wins handles down.
I've been looking at picking up a bench top mill and this had a lot of useful information.
Similar weight for both, so where's the beef?
all you had to say was there is no plastic gears on the PM-25MV. its a clear winner with just that aspect.
Nice comparison. Does either machine come standard with a vise and, if so, how do the vises compare?
Neither come with a vise included. 4" vises are available from both companies. I like the PM vise more than the Grizzly version.
This is helpful.
Nice comparison. I think a more fair comparison would be the G0705 though, which is $1639 after freight shipping, and significantly beefier (848lbs), and upgraded nearly everything.
Yep.
A few things:
The PM is now 1699 + 169 shipping + 49 lift gate +169 stand. The DRO model is 600 extra.
The Grizzly is 1495 (1350 on sale) stand included + 115 freight + about 50 lift gate.
That difference is now a lot more than 200!
I look at the PM and I recognize quiet a few Chinese parts. It may be assembled in the US. But I suspect it is also made in China.
A lot of the pluses awarded to the PM are taste preferences or just plain quirks. Who cares about the clearance for CNC conversion. You only have to pass cables once. Precision ground is not necessarily better than machined if the machining is done right. Oh! I also think the base on the PM looks better. But that doesn't mean it is better. It's a casting. The top surface is not required to be flat. In fact, the top of most cast parts is usually made non-flat intentionally. The attachment of the column to the base also looks better on the PM. But again, the Grizzly attachment is just as good, if not as pretty.
As you can guess, I have a 704. I do like a few things about the PM better. But none of those things, except maybe for the Z travel make it a better mill IMHO.
So then, I would be happy with either one. But the price means everything!
It looked like the lead screw on the grizzly was 1/10 pitch and the matthews was 1/20. (guess from the video picture) I wonder if the screws are both hardened. This has a LOT to do with how long backlash adjustments will be satisfactory.
like the video I would like the Precision Matthews if I had the money
The head bolts they are the same? the Grizzly may have 4 bolts but one is the centre bolt and 3 locking bolts Matthews has a centre pin! and 3 locking bolts.
at 7:28 the Grizzly started weeping uncontrollably and I couldn't watch anymore...