Does Hell REFUTE an All-Knowing, All-Good God?
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- This video lays out a challenge for Christians who believe in both Hell and an all-knowing, all-loving, and all-powerful God. Here’s the gist:
If an all-knowing God creates people that He knows will go to Hell, then those people don’t have free will. And if they don’t have free will, then God is sending them to Hell for no fault of their own. Since that is incompatible with a good God, then, therefore, Hell is incompatible with an all-knowing and all-good God.
At the heart of this challenge is a fundamental error in thinking. More specifically, this challenge has a mistaken understanding of how God’s foreknowledge works. It assumes God’s foreknowledge somehow causes my actions. And if it causes my actions, then I’m not free.
But God’s foreknowledge doesn’t cause what will happen. Rather, it reports what will happen. That’s a really important difference. It’s not God’s knowledge of my future actions that cause my future actions. Rather, it’s my actions that ground God’s knowledge.
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God knowing what you are going to do does not remove your responsibility in doing it.
It only does if Calvinism is true
@@MrKingcarella23 you made no sense right now. in calvinism choice of will still exists. or you dont understand it i guess.
@@MrKingcarella23 correct. Atheists and calvinists are basically two sides of the same coin. they've both come to the conclusion that their idea of God is evil and the calvinists choose to worship that evil and atheists reject it.
If god decreed it to happen does it still not remove your responsibility. Also freewill is questionable in nature for example i did not choose to exist, and if i don't like to exist right now i simply cannot go out of existence even if i want to, even if i asked god for it. God forces us to either take the heaven or hell route there is no in-between so where is the freewill in that. Also you can go to hell for doing the simplest of things. You also cannot commit suicide because god will punish you in hell eternally for it.
@@D78378 Abraham Lincoln's actions are written down in history books. You know those actions. Does your knowledge of his actions remove his free will? Of course not.
Also being able to choose between two things inherently means you have free will.
“How could a loving God send anyone to hell?”
“How could a just God send anyone to heaven?”
@@thecornerkid402 He doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself to hell. It is not His will that any suffer that eternal torment; but, because He loves you, He allows you to make your own decision. It pains Him when you turn away from Him, but that is your choice.
@@katherinemcdaniel8676 Is it also his choice to leave behind so little evidence that no sane person would believe the rumors of his “truth”?
@@christopherf8912 that's a laugh. There is so much evidence of His existence and the authority of the Bible. You're already on RUclips, look it up
@@christopherf8912 what would suffice as enough evidence for you Chris?
@@Y0usmelled well there’s a lot of things, but I would say that a book that lines up well with the creation story of the earth should be a good starter to putting it on the table for a real discussion of its viability as a theory.
Do you have a particular religion that lines up well with the geological evidence of the earth and its creation?
Gotta love how they confidently propose half baked ideas answered a thousand years ago like its new.
that can hold up to no scrutiny, which is why they post it on socials that wont challenge them
@@robmc120 Can your ideas hold up under scrutiny? Can mine? Care to challenge each other and have some iron sharpening iron as we ask and answer each others questions? I am willing to be challenge in fact I love to be challenged.
@@macmac1022 "Can your ideas hold up under scrutiny? "
Christianity is the most logically reasonable, cohesive, consistent explanation for actual, objective reality & real scientific findings, explaining origin (Genesis 1), meaning (ex.Isaiah 43:7), morality (ex.Exodus 20), destiny (ex.Hebrews 9:27), order, logic, reason, sense, beauty consistent from an orderly, logical, sensible, reasonable, beautiful God (1 Cor 14:33) who has revealed Himself to eyewitnesses (ex.Exodus19/1 Cor 15:6), generally in creation (ex.Romans 1:18) & specific divinity in His 66 harmonious writings from ~40 authors >1600 years, infallible (ex.2 Peter 1:21), eternal to creation (ex.John 1:1), prophetic (ex.Romans 1:26-32/2 Timothy 4:3/Matthew 24:6/1 Corinthians 1:18/Isaiah 53/Daniel 7), historic (ex. any credible historian attests to Jesus' existence, yet His body never found, consistent w/1 Cor 15) & transcendentally/objectively moral (ex.Exodus 20/Matthew 22:37-40) Holy Bible.
Whats your foundation for truth of reality?
@@macmac1022 "Can your ideas hold up under scrutiny? Can mine? "
I'm all for it, God's word has held true this long, i doubt you will be able to refute it,esp since no atheist/agnostic has ever given an objective (external to your mind;actual/real) foundation for their claims consistent with reality.
@@macmac1022 "Can your ideas hold up under scrutiny? Can mine? "
I'm all for it, God's word has held true this long, i doubt you will be able to refute it,esp since no atheist/agnostic has ever given an objective (external to your mind;actual/real) foundation for their claims consistent with reality.
Christianity trusts God's:
1)infallible (ex.2 Peter 1:21),
2)prophetic (ex.Romans 1:26-32/2 Timothy 4:3/Matthew 24:6/1 Corinthians 1:18/Isaiah 53/Daniel 7),
3)historic (ex. any credible historian attests to Jesus' existence, yet His body never found, consistent w/1 Cor 15) &
4)transcendentally/objectively moral (ex.Exodus 20/Matthew 22:37-40) Holy Bible.
What do you trust in for truth of reality?
She's also defining "good" to mean whatever she thinks is good. A question I would ask her is by what standard is she measuring goodness?
That's always the case. these people come up with their definition of good (which incidentally is generally the result of their up bringing within christian society) and they decide that their definition trump's God's. They are incapable of removing their ego for long enough to question whether their definition of good could be wrong.
She also has a tattoo on her arm
@@LiterallyMark1 So?
You hit the nail on the head brother
How do you measure goodness?
"All parents know their children are going to die someday when the mother is pregnant therefore parents are killing their children." -- this woman's logic.
Dying naturally and creating hell to kill someone infinitely are two different things.
@@bamboo1763Hell is separation from God not “created to kill someone”.
So those who don’t want to be with God on Earth will be separated from him after death.
I don’t see why people who hate God have a problem with Hell 😂.
@@joshuacooperseo
Hell is described by god to be the second death.
If you don't see the problem of torturing someone to death in hell over his belief, then there is nothing you cannot justify.
@@bamboo1763 But you can choose not to go. Why make the decision that sends you there?
@@bamboo1763if God tolerated sin He wouldn’t be a good God. He loves you so much that He took your punishment for you, so that you don’t have to endure it. He took your punishment, but left your choice. What will you choose?
God knowing the choices we will make ahead of time, has no effect on the choices we make ourselves. Our freewill remains intact regardless.
You have no choice because there is no other option.
Where does the Bible teach this?
@@vladtheemailer3223sure, there's an option! I can choose to put milk and sugar in my coffee tomorrow morning or drink it black. Either way God knows what I'm going to do. That has nothing to do with my free will to choose. God for God's foreknowledge to cause me to make that choice would entail his whispering to me. Put milk and sugar in your coffee or else! Nothing like that happens
Show me where it says we have freewill in the Bible.
@@cosmaladJoshua 24:15 and romans 14:5 are a couple of examples
Her reasoning is so fallacious. An infallible barometer that perfectly predicts the weather is not the cause of the weather itself. She may try to rebut and say that since God created us that he in essence DID create “the weather,” but although God created us, the free will he endowed us with make us responsible after a certain point.
This is the reason why the most you can say is not that God created evil, but that God created the POTENTIAL for evil. It was up to us as humans whether that potential became a reality.
She believes that free will is freedom to juke God’s foreknowledge. That isn’t even a theological misconception, it’s a philosophical one.
Free will ≠ the freedom to outsmart God.
Her logic is based in bigotry for Christians. It is and always will be folly.
A logical athiest doesnt believe in free will. So from their view point they dont even understand the concept that God created the potential for evil. They dont believe in potential.
I hate the "God created everything, so God created evil" claim. That's like saying an automobile manufacturer is responsible for car accidents because they already know people will crash their vehicles.
@@aaronharlow2137 Bingo
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Wow that's huge, how do you make that much monthly?
I'm 37 and have been looking for ways to be successful, please how??
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I started pretty low, though, $5000 thereabouts. The return came massive. Joey is in school doing well, telling me of new friends he's meeting in school. Thank you Susan Christy, you're a miracle.
$450k Returns the Lord is my saviour in times of my need!!!
wow this awesome 👏 I'm 37 and have been looking for ways to be successful, please how??
It's Ms. Susan Jane Christy doing, she's changed my life.
After I raised up to 325k trading with her I bought a new House and a car here in the states 🇺🇸🇺🇸 also paid for my son's surgery (Oscar). Glory to God.shalom.
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I do know Ms. Susan Jane Christy, I also have even become successful....
“To watch someone doing something is not the same thing as making them do it.”
CS Lewis
Was CS Lewis referring to a God when he said that?
@@edisonchin2463 To anyone.
@@Mark-cd2wf so.. that includes God then? Or else you are just taking it out of context.
@@edisonchin2463 God too.
@@edisonchin2463Even of it wasn't referring to God please explain how it wouldn't apply?
Before the video finishes…
Knowing is not the same as choosing or determining.
God can absolutely know our actions and decisions without causing or choosing them for us.
These people always conflate our choices with Gods knowledge. They are not one and the same.
I don't know how it's always impossible for atheists to understand, they really are coming up with new ways to not take accountability for their sins.
@@ndibunwapeter9013 you answered your own question. The don’t want to be held accountable.
Is belief a choice?
Also not finished the video, also paused to type the same thing. The fact that, out of an infinity of possible choices, one WILL be made by an individual, and that a God outside of time knows what that will be, does not in any way negate that the individual had a multitude of choices and could have made any one of them. That is a basic phillisophical issue that... is really not hard.
@@macmac1022 umm yes? Is that supposed to be a trick question? lol
They are trying to use logic from a finite, linear perspective, to measure a infinite, non-linear perspective.
Applying this logic, there's no reason to think you know anything about God.
But isn't that the only perspective us humans have?
It's worse for them, bc atheist/agnostics/etc have no consistency with logic of reality from their godless worldview of an unguided/blind/pitiless/indifferent universe (R.Dawkins) born from chance/chaos/nothingness/unknown/stardust (C.Sagan/L.Krauss).
They prove God exists when they apply order, logic, reason, sense, beauty consistent from an orderly, logical, sensible, reasonable, beautiful God (1 Cor 14:33) from which their worldview is mutually exclusive.
No, the rules of logic remains consistent across both perspectives. Instead, they're trying to use observations and assumptions that are valid about some things they observe to define things that are very categorically different (like using basic ethic observations of social behavior to apply to an infinite God).
@@nathanjohnson2066 How do you know the rules of logic apply outside of space time?
Free will doesn't cease to exist because someone knows what choices you make. Using past history and someone's character, a human can correctly assume a person's every decision in their life. But it doesn't take away from the fact that the person chose those decisions out of their own free will.
For a small scale example, in Pre-School, I was the annoying kid who knew all the answers, so whenever the teacher asked a question, I would raise my hand to answer it. I would always raise my hand without exception for the first 2 weeks (before the teacher talked to my parents). If the teacher wrote a question on the white board, and then turned around to see who had their hand up to answer the question, and I had my hand raised like I dod for every previois question, did I lose my free will because the teacher knew my hand would be raised? Does her knowing I would raise my hand with complete certainty keep me from being able to choose to not raise my hand or from choice of raising my hand? No. The choice was still made by me. I just made a choice that was already known. By the same measure, we have the right to choose God or not. Even if He knows what choice we will make. Keep in mind, at the end of the day, it is a choice. He doesn't want people who don't want to be with Him stuck in heaven when they don't really want to be there. It would be more crude to force someone who hates God to spend eternity with God.
@@chadasonmcgraw8097 There is not ONE single verse in the bible that supports the fallacy of so called free will. And what would your will be free from? And outside interference from God? Well we know THAT is not true! Since you are dead in sin and trespasses... dead men have not will! Salvation comes as a GIFT of faith by grace, OF His will and not your own!
@@EHV8R I agree that salvation comes as a free gift by grace through faith. Ephesians 2:8-9
That said, I think you're mincing words here.
Just because salvation is a gift doesn't mean everyone will benefit from it. The Bible also states that, "God was reconciling the world to himself through Christ, by not counting people's sins against them. He has trusted us with this message of reconciliation." - 2 Corinthians 5:19
Why then doesn't the whole world benefit from God's message of reconciliation?
Because we're free to walk away from it and reject it. Sadly, many do just that. Pride, vanity, sin.... we choose that instead of God's gift.
But doesn't that mean we choose God?
Yes... in a sense, but not in a normal sense of humans choosing. God gives us the power to become his children via the Holy Spirit quickening our hearts and making us alive. - "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God - John 1:12 God gives us the ability to receive him. But not every does, in spite of that. That is why all the glory belongs to him if we follow him, but all the blame belongs to use if we don't follow him.
Best analogy (although still flawed) is a father who leaves his crippled son who has an terrible, fatal disease a vast inheritance in a bank account set up with his (the son's) name on it. More than enough to provide for his needs and treatment for his disease. But the son in his pride and vanity refuses to take advantage of the gift. He steadfastly refuses to use any of the funds, and so ultimately he perishes from his illness/disease. The account still belonged to the son (it had his name on it) even though he refused to ever use it. Thus, although the gift is given to him, it does him no good and ultimately he perishes. There would be no credit given to the son for simply doing what his father wishes and accessing the funds (i.e. the atoning sacrifice of Jesus) to cure his disease (sin) that's already marked him as a dead man. And likewise, the sins of the son do not negate the gift given by the father, but because he doesn't access it, he perishes.
Lest we get dragged into the old "how dead is dead" argument that no theologian has ever fully answered, let us rather celebrate that we've both been made alive in Christ... and precisely how he accomplishes that pales in comparison to what it actually means for us: eternal life in Christ!
@@EHV8RWhen Satan wanted to be higher than God and was banished from Heaven, why didn’t he just kill Satan and the angels who rebelled against God? If God had killed Satan, it would have forced us to worship him and God doesn’t want to force anyone to worship him. We have a choice to obey God or disobey God. That is by definition of free will. The Antichrist will be about forcing people to worship him and kill anyone who doesn’t. He is a counterfeit of what God is about and who God is. God gives us a choice, the Antichrist, will not.
@@EHV8R John 3:16 seems to indicate that Yeshua thought that people could make significant choices. Less Calvinism and more Scripture, could I suggest?
I can’t believe I didn’t see through that error earlier. Good response
He didn’t really see the error though…he just went around it and did a loop.
Jesus explains this in a parable in Matthew 13:24-29 He explains how a man sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat. His servants offered to pull them up but the man said no, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Instead, the man told them to wait till the harvest at which time you can gather the weeds to be burnt and store the wheat in the barn.
If God kills an evil person, he also destroys his seed/descendants who may be good. This is why God does not destroy evil people because he is waiting for the harvest at the end of the age to destroy them.
A good point! Who knows what evil people I have in my ancestry, or which ones of my forbears rejected the Lord when presented with Him. I’m thankful for His grace in allowing their existence so that I may exist as well and choose Him.
Who made the enemy? Or, why does the enemy exist? Why was the enemy allowed to exist?
Some people set such a high bar for 'knowing if God exists', that nothing could ever reach it. You can conclude they don't want God to exist because it's inconvenient
They know. It is never a knowledge/intellect issue. It's a heart issue. That's why it also is the changing of the heart(read being born again) that saves us. And Jesus is the one that causes such change when we humbly accept His offer. God bless
I always love these arguments involving morality. They call them an “internal critique” but what they fail to realize is that the arguments only appear to work if morality is objective, which requires God. But if God exists then He is the standard of morality meaning whatever He decides goes so you can’t argue that He’s “wrong” or “unloving.” He decides what is right and wrong, loving and unloving. These people assume God for their argument against God but then assume a moral standard that somehow exists above God and also applies to Him (which would require an even higher and more powerful being to set and enforce.). 🤦🏻♂️
Keep preaching, brother 🙏🏾
Very good insight and well said
right, i like to demonstrate it as:
If anything is considered wrong/bad/evil,
=>good exists,
=>moral law exists to differentiate good/evil,
=>the transcendent moral law giver exists to judge subordinates by said law (the triune God)
Morality is not objective and since there's no such thing as a god, it obviously doesn't require a god.
@@RLBays lol “morality is not objective” is a self-refuting statement. 🤦🏻♂️. Who is it subjective for? According to your claim, morality is subjective for everyone. That’s a contradiction. That itself is an objective moral claim. And since objective morality exists and you can’t escape it, God necessarily exists.
I wonder if this girl would write to her local weatherman to ask him for good weather. If the weatherman tells you there will be tornados tomorrow, is he a cruel weatherman?
Yes, if the weatherman is the one creating the tornado, since he is almighty.
@@edisonchin2463 Edison, I’m so glad for the way you responded. I don’t mean to embarrass you but your post is a perfect example for the “begging the question” fallacy. Most people confusing this with “raising the question”, but it originated with the meaning that one side is begging for the question at hand by presupposition. In our example, the question is “does man have free will to act, or is God forcing the action”. My argument was that the fact that a weatherman knows what the weather will be like, does not mean he is causing the weather. This shows that a person can know something will happen in the future and it does not follow (logically) that knowing is the same as causing. Your response did not address my argument that “Knowing is not the same as causing”, but you begged (anyone who may read the thread) to grant you the conclusion in question, without making an argument that knowing the future is equal to causing the future.
I hope that helps.
@@mlauntube no the question isn't about argument of free will.
@@edisonchin2463 0:39 “and that individual does not have free will because that God knew ahead of time when He was creating them that they would end up going to hell. And that person did not have a choice in that matter because it was already decided as soon as God formed them in their mother’s womb.”
@@mlauntube great, taken out of context and then ignoring everything else. Way to go!
The Red Pen delivers again
catchy!
This young lady is seeking the truth.
I pray that God reveals His truth to her.
God reveals himself through the bible,
and the bible is proving her correct.
and if she does not wish to worship evil, she won't become a christian.
I can feel the Calvinists typing furiously.
Yes, but most Calvinists (like me) agree with 98% of what was said in this video. It's a total misunderstanding of Calvinism to say that it denies free will. Very few crazy folks actually believe that.
@@nathanjohnson2066 you may not deny free will. But leaving calvinist theologians will explicitly state that our modern understanding of Free Will is an illusion and the ultimately articulate an interpretation of God's sovereignty that does not allow for any human freedom of choice.
@@teamxcelap2 I've heard OF a few extremists like that before, but I've never actually met anyone who actually believes such things. And I know many Calvinists. But I do know that very many Calvinists who DO believe in free will are constantly misunderstood and misrepresented in such ways that people claim that they deny free will.
@@nathanjohnson2066And what do Calvinists believe exactly?
@@adammccaw For the famous 5 points of Calvinism, look up TULIP. I'm not going to outline an entire branch of theology for you, though. There are plenty of sources to learn about Calvinism.
God loves us and is patient with us, not wanting us to go to hell. But He wants us to humble ourselves before Jesus and be saved, receive His love and forgiveness, and have new life. But if we choose the sins which harm us and others, and refuse the Savior, we would be condemned. Choose Jesus. He loves you. ❤
The best analogy I’ve managed to think of for God’s foreknowledge is reading a history book. We already know what people in history are going to do, but that doesn’t mean those people didn’t have free will. If that makes any sense.
Yes, but this analogy has a flaw. In this scenario, God would have no way to interact with the world. And that's not what I believe. My best explanation is this: God knows EVERY consequence of our decisions and actions. So if I decide to drink coffee tomorrow, God already knows today that I will drink coffee tomorrow. But if I decide to drink milk, God also already knows. In other words, God knows every possible outcome of every decision at every point in time. Does that make sense?
@@mikethebike2463 Yeah, my analogy has a quite a few flaws if we look at it hard enough, one of the major ones being what you said. However, I do not believe any analogy will be perfect, as we are trying to comprehend an infinite being with our finite minds.
That being said, I can see the logic behind your explanation, that God can see every possibility we can take as well as the one we will.
I do have one problem with that explanation though, which is that it implies to me that God can see several timelines of possibilities and their outcomes, and we choose which timeline to go down. I think I might have a slightly more deterministic view of time. I view time as a straight line and that God knew from the beginning every choice people were going to make, as well as when He would intervene in history. Which is reflected in the history book analogy, there is no different possibilities or "timelines" we can take, just the one that we will.
Like, with the milk and coffee analogy. God knows which one we will drink, so why would He want to know the outcome of drinking the other? That being said, there is a fair chance I misunderstood the point you were making, so feel free to correct me.
Consider the following key points:
1. Even if knowing the future doesn't necessarily determine it, the concept challenges the idea of free will. If we truly possessed free will, we should be able to change the course of events and alter God's prior (or future) knowledge. However, if we can change God's knowledge, it implies that God's initial understanding was inaccurate or false.
2. God's knowledge of alternative timelines stems from His nature as an omniscient being, who possesses complete and perfect knowledge. Excluding hypothetical scenarios would introduce limitations, undermining God's infinite understanding.
@@jourdan4am Those are some pretty good points! I can understand how my concept challenges the idea of free will. However, if we know someone well enough to predict their every action, does that mean they don't have free will? I don't believe so, and I apply that to my concept of God's sovereignty. Though God knows what we are going to do, I don't believe that renders our free will null. I also completely disagree with the idea that we can alter God's knowledge or the course of events, as you said, it would invalidate God's omniscience.
I can agree with the fact God could see every hypothetical scenario if He wants to, but the problem I have is answering the question why He would want to. He already knows what we will do, so why would He be interested in seeing what we could do instead? Thank you for the questions, they make me ask questions I wouldn't think to ask.
@@rignkfsa6375 There is a problem with your analogy; therefore, it's insufficient to explain how God knows the future in light of freewill. In your analogy, you state that knowing someone well enables prediction, but even then, free will can lead to surprises, surprises you never expected.
Regarding possible futures, you suggest God doesn't need to know. I'd ask: What if I asked God what would have happened if I'd made a different decision? You're essentially saying God cannot answer that, which questions God's omniscience.
Foreknowledge that CREATES the future vs Foreknowledge that COMES from the future.
Determinism as events are SET in stone vs Free Will because your future is your's to CREATE.
Man, I've missed you! Glad to have these videos again!
If I wrote my kids a letter explaining that sin leads to death, only to have them turn it around and claim that I said sin leads to eternal conscious torture, "disappointed" and "disgusted" wouldn't begin to describe my reaction.
The Lord is a just judge!
Protect this man at all costs.
The wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.
Jesus DIED for you, he did not suffer for you eternal torment.
The soul is NOT eternal and can be destroy:
Matthew 10:28
[28] Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to DESTROY both SOUL and body in Gehenna.
It’s difficult to comprehend how GOD sees. This should be the first thing anyone with this debate should understand. The fact GOD knows everything and yet still gives a person free will is actually very beautiful. And one factor she’s not mentioning is how much GOD helps us along each and every way through the HOLY SPIRIT. GOD is fair, and everyone will be judged as such; this is the beauty of spreading the GOSPEL. You’re not just speaking words. Your’e actually speaking spirit, and the things of the spirit can only be understood by the spirit. Those words have power, and those words come from our Father, the Creator of all things.
A creator of creatures with such poor decision-making ability (in some cases) deserves at least part of the blame. UNLESS that same creator will eventually fix the problem. Which he will:
John 12:32, 17:2, Rom. 5:18-19, 8:20-21, 11:32,36, 14:11, *1 Cor. 15:22,28,* Eph. 1:10, Phil. 2:10-11, 3:21, Col. 1:20, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, 4:10, Titus 2:11, 1 Pet. 4:6, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, Rev. 5:13, 15:4, 21:5,24-25, 22:2, combination of (Rev. 22:1,14-15,17a,17c), Psalm 22:27,29, 65:2-3, 145:10a, Isa. 25:6-8, 45:22-25, 57:16, Lam. 3:22,31, Ezek. 16:53,55, Mal. 3:2-3, The Total Victory of Christ videos.
He didn’t even confront the actual question he went around the question and then made a loop. 🤣
Except man doesn't have "free" will. Only God does. We have a creatures will that's either enslaved to sin or enslaved to Christ:
“Jesus answered them, “Most certainly I tell you, everyone who commits sin is the bondservant of sin.”
-John 8:34
“Don’t you know that when you present yourselves as servants and obey someone, you are the servants of whomever you obey, whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?”
-Romans 6:16
There is hard determinism, libertarian free will, and compatibilism. I believe compatibilism is true. While I was an unbeliever I believed in hard determinism but that model doesn’t make sense. If hard determinism was true a debate would ultimately be fruitless since the people speaking couldn’t have chosen otherwise. The people listening couldn’t choose a stance themselves so ultimately what’s seemingly true or false could never be known objectively. Also if true hard determinism was true we couldn’t be guilty of sins since there is no level of control. If libertarian free will existed for us, meaning total control outside of the physical environment/input one could actually live a sinless life. Since we can’t totally avoid sins we are left with compatibilism. We are determined to a large extent but there is a level of free will choice. We can accept Jesus’s free gift of everlasting life since we believe he is lord. With the help of the Holy Spirit we slowly increase in sanctification through our lives.
That reminds me of that discussion with Jordan Peterson and those other brilliant men on that DailyWire show.
The evil inside you can enslave you like a "god" on it's own, but there are other forces inside you, good forces and a free will to determine wich forces take the upper hand, you are responsible for your actions because you willingly decide wich you give in to.
🤦🏾♂️She's Paul's objector in Romans 9:
“What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be! For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.
You will say then to me, “Why does he still find fault? For who withstands his will?” But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?
What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory”
-Romans 9:14-23
Will the real Calvinist please stand up! (Perfect response)
I responded to this very reel. I had some interesting things to say but this video is better so thanks for responding to this girl.
Romans 9:13-26
[13] As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-[24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? [25] As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
[26] “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
@@minizimi3790 Amen!
Logical take and great point! I observed a misconception about Hell in this person-I would’ve explained that Hell is not so much a “place” created for punishment as it is the state of eternally being outside of and away from God; the total eternal separation from God. And God isn’t in the business of *making* us be with Him…so the choice is still graciously ours.
If anything, we should have compassion for God having loved us so much to give us a chance with every born child that they might choose to be with Him when most actually reject and sadden Him…and yet He continues to create more of us.
Well another foundational error they present in their problem is the nature of God himself. He is also Holy. If they skip out on his holiness then they'll never understand stuff like goodness, mercy, grace or that God is not like his creation And that he is set apart from his creation.
You got a little fired up on this one homie, I dig the passion.
Where does the Bible say God loves all? There are many verses of him hating people. Like Esau. Atheists always like to add things to the Bible.
God does love all, but he doesn't love certain actions performed by his creations. When the bible says that God hates person A, he doesn't actually hate them, he just loves them less
@@kenyonzebeda9644 He doesn't Love Esau and Satan. I don't think he loves demons either since they are to be sent to the Abyss in the end times.
I doubt he loved Jezebel either.
@@PCMRvsconsole Yep, reading the Bible I had to drop the all loving perspective unless universalism is true. But the Bible doesn't seem to support it. The Bible seems to support Calvinism and Determinism so All loving goes out of the question. Annihilatonism seems to be the fate of the unsaved, but still I don't think anyone would consider it loving to be erased from existence.
@@PCMRvsconsole don't know how God feels about Satan, but he definitely does not hate humans.
@kenyonzebeda9644 He hated the Amalekites and Jezebel got eaten by dogs. I don't think he loved her either.
This is a great video. Additionally, there are Annihilationist, like myself, who believe that Hell is not Eternal Punishing but Eternal Punishment. Being cut off of God's Presence fully means to cease from existence. After death we only live because God remembers us, noy because we are eternal thingies. When God decides to honor your decision and leave you by, not with him and his Presence, well... That's Hell, and that is Eternal - it can not change
The actual problem is hell itself. It is basically indefensible for an all good God to send people to a torturous hell for eternity for a finite crime. Fortunately, there are apologists that don't believe in an eternal fiery hell anyway.
I don't think anyone does unless he is a psychopath to be honest.
@@CappieBG You'd be surprised. A lot of people do. In fact, I've seen a video of a pastor defending the view in a question and answer video.
Hitchens ay? There are no finite crimes before the eyes of an eternal God, redeeming any of us is an act of love beyond human measure.
@@DANGJOSI do believe in conditional immortality since its what the scripture teaches and God cannot lie so... There are some verses for Universalism too, but I am not sure about them.
So God can ONLY be loving? He cannot be just and judge sin and also be loving? He cannot be holy or anything other than loving? He only has one attribute, love? Would it be loving to remove the ability of people to make free choices? To only make people who would only make "right" choices? In that case, the ability to choose would not really exist because you could only make predetermined choices, wouldn't it? As Dr. Turek has described it, they would be moist robots. Do you enjoy the right to freely choose or do you prefer being so programmed you can only make certain, limited choices? If you can only love another person because you have been programmed to love that person does that mean you truly love? If you can only do what God says is right, does that mean you truly love Him? Does love involve the ability to choose? What should God do with those, because of free will, choose to reject Him? Would those who reject God actually desire to spend eternity with Him and those who do love Him? How would those who reject God affect those in heaven who do love God? Would heaven really be heaven if it also contained those who do not love God and His people? Would heaven be more like just another earth but some earth where you would be stuck for eternity? Is it fair to those who love God be stuck with those who don't? How do the "haters" of God now behave? Would it be any different in heaven if they were not separated out? Are not the "haters" actually getting what they desire, a place where they don't face God?
C.S. Lewis explained it very well in one sentence - in The Screwtape Letters, where Screwtape writes, "Obviously, to watch a man do something is not to make him do it." It was read by John Cleese in the audio version in a wonderfully offhand way. Cheers!
That doesn't even come close to addressing it.
Your example is about a human watching someone. Not a supernatural creature that is all powerful and all knowing.
What a strawman haha.
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (Romans 9:21, NASB)
You have to understand the Bible in context. The beginning of this chapter (verses 6-8) gives us the immediate context. Romans 9 isn’t saying that God is a tyrant who sends people to hell just because He feels like it. Romans 9 is pointing out that salvation isn’t in the flesh (the blood lineage of Abraham), but rather in the promise (the faith lineage of Abraham). Israel are those who believe in God, not those who are Jews by blood.
To say that God chooses who is saved and who isn’t is to make God out to be tyrant and to insinuate that God is the author of sin and disobedience.
“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.” Ezekiel 18:21
“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.” Ezekiel 18:24
“Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?” Ezekiel 18:23
“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9
@Vladi.G yes thank you for this response. That Romans section also makes me think of I think it's in Jeremiah 18 where it describes the interactions of the clay and potter. Very applicable as well
@@NathannnnnnnnnnPraise God for His love and the fact that He desires our genuine love and not that we should be programmed robots. The same author that wrote Romans also wrote 2 Timothy and in this book he uses the same analogy of vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, but here He gives more insight and explains that it is the vessels choice to be cleansed. A vessel of dishonor can become a vessel of honor… it is not predestined to remain a vessel of dishonor.
“But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.” 2 Timothy 2:20-21
@Vladi.G love it! Cheers my brother in Christ! Looking forward to embracing you with a big hug in paradise. 🥹❤️ Christ is king and may He have mercy on us all. For I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation ♥️ that's Romans 1:16 I believe
@@Nathannnnnnnnnn May we be found faithfully and lovingly obeying God’s commandments. Blessings brother!
Blessed is the one You choose and cause to approach You, that he may dwell in Your courts. Psalm 65:4
She makes a good argument against Calvinism/ double predestination
What do you mean? She makes a good argument for Calvinism.
@@buxboi5308 she makes no good argument against anything
Calvinism / double predestination expresses the sovereignty of God as clearly demonstrated by the Scriptures
This shows that you've no idea what Reformed theology mean
1st Samuel 23:10-13 seals the foreknowledge-predestination debate in most biblical scholar's books. Here David prays to the Lord in the city of Keilah about what to do as Saul is coming. God states the men of the city will surrender David and his men- as he foreknows- but David chooses to leave the city and avoid the consequence of said foreknowledge. Without acquiring to God and changing course, David would have been predestined, then to being capture and turned over to Saul. So God can do both, both foreknow and predestine. Another gem from the late, great Dr. Heiser.
I had no idea there was such a thing as a Calvinist Atheist.
@@Zundfolge It’s what the demonic doctrine of Calvinism does. It turns millions away from God. As does every lie.
I think a lot of atheists assume that the Bible teaches a Calvinist doctrine of salvation simply because it's easier to construct a strawman version of it to knock down than it is for alternatives like Molinism. Most of what you hear from atheists on platforms like RUclips or TikTok are incredibly superficial critiques of Christianity. Frequently from people who deconverted from fundamentalist versions of Christianity and then assume that all of Christianity is like that.
That's not Calvinism; that's naturalistic determinism (which is very commom among atheists). Saying that everything is merely the product of predictable interactions between particles is very different from saying that an omnipotent, omniscient, personal God is sovereign over all things, has decided the ultimate result of all things, and has created the world so that people will freely act within God's foreknown/decreed history.
Absolutely many and I feel most are or deconstruct. Because of a poor understanding of God's sovereignty and that we are responsible for our sin because God has chosen to let us do as we please. Not because He can't but because God decided to.
Anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ come in the flesh to take away the sin of the world is an atheist. That includes Calvinists who deny God is love, who deny Jesus paid for all sin, who deny the will of God to save all men through the blood of Christ. A false god is still no God.
This woman's understanding of free will is surface level. She doesn't have bad questions, it's just i had these things figured out when I was a teenager, and I WAS an atheist then.
Isn’t the point of the video less pointing towards the idea of God’s foreknowledge of our sin CAUSING our sin, but more pointing towards the idea that God’s foreknowledge influences the motivation behind him creating us in the first place? The way I understood it, the challenge was: ‘if God knew we were going to hell, why would he ‘form us in our mother’s womb’ in the first place, thus sentencing us to hell by default?’ To be clear, I am a Christian too; but I get the feeling you might not have fully answered the video. I apologise if this seems rude or hateful, that’s not how I intend it to come off. I’m just offering honest feedback as I see it :)) God bless you Red Pen!
-a university student from the UK
That was always the sense that I got. I think both challenges are present since she does bring up free will but am curious what the response would be to the challenge you laid out above. It's the whole "If God knew humans were going to fall into sin and he was going to have to punish them, why did he create them in the first place?"
@@joshuaschmidt6331 Exactly; but especially in the context of individuals, as opposed to humanity in general - as I think the latter is a bit easier to answer
God knows every possible outcome but the nature of free will makes it so that everything can’t be set in stone. He knows where the future is going right now but he can also change the future when ever he wants. We plan our lives in our hearts and he knows the content of our hearts before we make any choice but we can change our hearts when ever we want so just because someone is currently on the wrong path doesn’t mean they have to stick to it.
@@JohnBaloony that has nothing to do with what I typed though lol
@@ashm9952 It does because he wants everyone to go to heaven and allow everyone to be born with a pure heart. We are the ones who change our hearts and our own future. He can’t know the future has changed before it has changed.
Anything that is false is against the truth ,and those who reject the truth are already under judgment, anyone who justifys what is false are against the truth, the way the truth and the life amen
If I watch a movie, the outcome is already decided. Did the actors not have a choice when making the movie? God sees the ending at the same time he sees the beginning. Because hes outside of time. Its not like hes making everything happen and deciding what happens.
This is generally how I think of it but I'm curious about 2:33 - looking forward to that video!
Frank Turek uses a similar example. If you record a football game to watch later, then a friend tells you the final score before you watch it. Your knowing the outcome does not change the free will of the players during the game.
I have free will to sin as much as I possibly could want. I can’t save myself because I am not all powerful. We conflate free will with being able to save ourselves, they are not the same.
The point is that god knew what would happen and knew the final result, yet chose to do it anyway. So he knew someone would make wrong choices from the start and would suffer forever, but still sent that person to earth knowing that they would suffer forever. That god is therefore not loving because he should have never let that person be born in the first place because that would have been merciful.
I see what you are saying; however, hell wasn’t originally intended for mankind. But unfortunately we sinned against God. Yes, He is loving but He is also just. He cannot and will not allow sin in His presence. As for the person in your point that doesn’t accept God’s free gift of salvation, why wouldn’t they want to?
@@BDK1994 My point wasn't that he was unjust. Just that he couldn't be all loving if he knows that someone's future choices would have them suffer forever, and yet still send them into the world. As for people not believing, everyone is unique. Every person has unique brain chemistry, genes, parents, culture and so on that can influence their choices. If they were born into another religion, why would they believe in the Christian god? If they're neuro divergent, they might be more skeptical of the idea of a god. There's lots of reasons why someone wouldn't believe and the fault would be on god because god supposedly knit everyone together in the womb. That would mean he made us the way we are.
@@multi-milliondollarmike5127free will baby. If you can't understand it, you won't comprehend God's love. Plus you're judging God's action through the lens of a finite world which in itself is a fallacy. It's like trying to solve a mathematical equations with water. So.... Yeah your argument makes no sense whatsoever.
@@benedictjajoIf he knows us before we're born and makes us in the womb, the responsibility falls on him. There is no free will if god is the one making us because that means he's deliberately making us a certain way from the start. So if we're already pre-programmed and pre-disposed to believe certain things and dismiss others like Christianity, then he already decided who will suffer and who won't. There is ultimately no free will, because he's the one who made us who we are and also programmed what kind of decisions we would make!
@@multi-milliondollarmike5127 Unfortunately that’s the problem with people who reject God. They put the blame on Him without taking responsibility for their actions. It’s like someone saying “I robbed a store and shot the clerk who tried to stop me, because no one would hire me and I was hungry”….no accountability. God has given enough evidence to show He is real. Think about this, there are over 8 billion people in the world right now and there is only one of you. You are unique. There is no one like you. All around we can see a creator behind life’s design (if we really look).
As for God not being all loving, He is. The Bible explains to us in Romans 5:8 that God demonstrated His own love towards us that while we were sinners Christ died for us. This means while we were His enemies (because we sinned against Him) He still died for us. I don’t know about you, but I don’t think I could or would die for someone who was my enemy.
As for knowing someone will reject Him and still create that person, it is a hard pill to swallow. But we don’t know the future…He does. That’s where trust in Him as believers comes into play. That person may reject Him, but play a pivotal part in God’s plan (example: their kid(s) become a pastor that teaches many about Christ and they become saved). God loves each and every one of us, but because He loves us, He won’t force us into His kingdom.
For years the way I've looked at how the free will vs predestination (aka God knowing everything we'll do) is this: God will bring us to certain places in our lives regardless of our choices, we choose to either follow His will and get there peacefully or we choose to go against His will and get dragged there painfully. It's like the two paths in the forest parable, except both paths eventually lead to the same place, one more easily and the other less so.
As for how Hell can exist alongside an all loving God, that's easy, God's definition of good and righteous is not the same as hers, and since God cannot tolerate the presence of any unrighteousness, then those who do not meet His definition of righteous cannot enter His presence, but their souls have to go somewhere, hence Hell.
Here is a follow up question then to this scenario. Would you as a person with basic intent to be loving and kind choose to still have children if you knew ahead of time that they would choose themselves to be separate from God, therefore spending eternity in Hell. Personally, I don't think it matters whether God's foreknowledge equates to Him making the decision for the person or not, I would still not have these kids if I knew they would choose Hell because I wouldn't want them to suffer for eternity as opposed to never existing. This is a legitimate area I do not know how to be at peace with, since I know my morality is not greater than Gods, so I must be missing something.
That's a very inaccurate analogy. Firstly, you assume their existence doesn't affect anyone else but them (what if their existence causes many others to be saved, which otherwise wouldn't? Does that change your decision?). Secondly, you've chosen one interpretation of "hell" that doesn't necessarily match scripture (from what I have understood from the text, a form of annihilation is closer to what it teaches, so that needs to be allowed for in the discussion - making it more akin to "would you allow a person to exist temporarily, knowing they would end up no longer existing later, or would you choose for them to rather not to exist at all" - I know that I would rather have them exist temporarily, where then the pain of knowledge of their later non-existence is a burden you alone carry). Thirdly, you assume a very narrow human perspective on morality, existence and knowledge and assign it to God.
@@stephenkeen6044 are people now just saying hell is non existence, because that is the funniest thing I have ever heard.
@@christopherf8912 "people" have been saying it from the early church fathers on. It's a well-known "internal" debate among Christians. And since scripture can be understood to support either eternal torment or annihiliation, with no unequivocal case that can be made for either (although I think the case for annihilation is stronger), allowance should be made for both views. John Stott held to annihilationism, for a relatively modern example of a well-known and respected Reformed teacher.
You’re forgetting that God has no other desire for every single human being, than for them to be in heaven, and Jesus made the supreme sacrifice to make that possible! Whatever people do or don’t do, however they choose to freely respond or to reject this offer has absolutely no bearing on God whatsoever!
He still desires All men to be saved!!! 💕✝️💕
The final choice is theirs alone,
NOT Gods!
Without “free choice” love cannot exist! 💝
Just because God knows everything.. doesn’t cause everything to happen and that includes free will decisions!
God Bless!! 💝
@@stephenkeen6044 Is this not the truth of god? Why is the text so muddled as to have this level of interpretation difference.
We have free will, which means we choose right or wrong . God gives us that free will to see who his children are
-Sirs what must I do to be saved?
-Nothing,you're predestined to Hell..
😵🧟♂️🔥
If you're asking what you need to do to be saved, you're not destined to go to hell.
"But you had the free will to choose evil, but not to choose to turn to Christ" - some calvinist
@@mastershake4641exactly LOL
@@mastershake4641 you don't understand how Calvinism works in the slightest. God knowing what you're going to do in the future doesn't remove your responsibility for those actions.
You're just as bad as the lady in the video
Glory to God!
Great explanation!
Most time when people try to square God's omniscience with man's free will, they attempt to pit them against one another like the lady in this video. I love how this video places them in harmony with one another, not sacrificing either but allowing both to fully coexist as it is described in the bible.
Well said. Likewise, all his attributes, including His sovereignty and mercy align and operate together.
@@Bad_Llama This video diminishes God sovereignty, not places it it harmony.
Man has no "free" will. If you genuinely believe that then you're placing God to be logically subordinate to your choices. If you believe that your choices logically precede God's knowledge, then you make either one of two fallacious arguments:
[1] Assuming God is inside of time, a period had existed in which He didn't know your choices, thereby debunking any claim of divine omniscience. In other words, you believe God _learns_ from your choices and _changes_ His nature, ultimately reducing your theology to *open theism* (an antibiblical heresy).
[2] Assuming God is outside of time, your choices would've been as eternal and transcendental as God's will, since the former is fundamentally independent from the latter. This implies you're a god in your own right (heresy), and it further allows the possibility of multiple gods (another heresy), contradicting the Bible's clear monotheistic position.
Do you now see the problems with your proposition?
The Bible says that God has declared the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10-11), and also has control over the actions, desires, and fate of man (Proverbs 16:1-9). You see, everything we do has been predetermined from eternity past, including our sin. He ordained everything that comes to pass for the good purpose of bringing His children to Him and for uniting all things under heaven and earth under Christ (1 Corinthians 15:21-28, Ephesians 1:3-14).
Autonomy can never be created or replicated, for God is one and He declared that there be only one (Isaiah 46:9); otherwise, you essentially make Him to be a liar (reductio ad absurdum).
To quote Jaques from Shakespeare's _As You Like It_ : "All the world’s a stage, And all the men and women merely players; They have their exits and their entrances; And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages." I hope that you finally understand the truth from this, brother.
This is also one of the reasons God makes salvation a completely free gift. He knows no one can live to His standard, so He removes the punishment by taking it for us, and leaves the choice. We don’t go to hell because we can’t live up to God’s standard, we go to hell because we choose to reject this gift.
Man that was good
The reality is people who have this type of thought process, want to do their own thing and not suffer the repercussions of choosing their own path. The reality is God has given us a consciousness of right and wrong. And whatever you choose is how you will be rewarded or punished.
Yes, that's the same conclusion I arrived at. We all have free will, but God already knows what we will choose.
Therefore, he creates humans knowing they will be sent to the torture chamber he created.
God created everything to be good, but he chose to give free will to all of his creation. Otherwise, we would just be robots. He thought of Jesus before he created the world, so there should be a saviour for those who obey him. Although we have all sinned, if we confess our sins and put our trust in Jesus, then we will live, not die (spiritually speaking). Yes, I feel sorry for anyone who chooses to murder, steal, rape, swindle, etc., and so does God, but why would he let someone like Hitler into heaven? Or why would be let any unrepentant evil person into heaven? Then there would be no heaven. God doesn't want anyone to perish..he wants everyone to come to the knowledge of the truth and know him, but the choice is ours on whether we want to do good in this world or want to do evil, and whether we are willing to consider and believe the words of Jesus Christ.
@@Roz-zi1ye you're claiming god created everything to be good. But the torture chamber that is hell, wasn't created by a different god was it? It was created by him, and it is not good, it is pure evil. Which makes the Christian god, pure evil.
Alternatively, there is no eternal torment, just a temporary torment, and then after that you just cease to exist all together,@@CalebScott1991, so then you return to being non-existent as you were before you were created in your mother's womb. Believe what you want to believe. I know God is good, because I have experienced the love and I find comfort in the hope of eternal life in heaven. I hope you can eventually believe that you don't have to die, but you can continue to live after this life in a place of safety and love ✨️💖✨️
Well, before we were formed in our mother's womb, we were non-existent. Some christians say the Bible doesn't teach eternal torment, but that it teaches temporary torment and then innihilation/ destruction of the wicked, meaning they just cease to exist/be conscious beings. The people who chose to believe in Christ, however, will inherit eternal life.
It boils down to God knowing you will do bad and letting you do it! The question should be stated, "Does letting you do evil and reaping hell an evil act on God's part?"
Red Pen Logic thats a amazing way to explain it i give God Glory for using you to clarify
I commented on the post she shared on insta and said just this! Good video
Who wants yo join me sign a petition to bring back the original Red Pen Logic videos, with an actual red pen correcting fallacies and false statements. I miss the "class is in session" and "class dismissed" videos. 😭
They are all like "I am the first to ever ask this question"
Hi, interesting response! And I understand the setup of the video and your videos usually being quite short and all. I was just thinking, maybe it would’ve been better to add to this the other aspect of God’s holy goodness, i.e., His grace in not sending everybody to hell. He is already ‘all-good’ in that he punishes wrong-doing, but His ‘all-goodness’ shines even brighter when He also displays grace in taking a part of this punishment on Himself (Jesus on the cross)!
Here's a bit of clarity for us simple humans, if we know something, we lack the power to not know it. But if God so chooses to not know your outcome even with the ability to know every intricate detail of every moment of your life, He can, something we will never understand how to do because we do not even compare to God. Stop trying to explain God, just put your faith in Him and He will give you all the understanding you need. Stop questioning Him, you are wrong and He is right, until you submit to Him and then He is right through you.
God did not force me to watch this video, not force me to comment on it.
He knew I would, but didn't force me. I chose to.
I would have difficulty believing in a God who, given the rampant wickedness & evil in the world, did not allow there to be a 'Hell' or something like it, whereby Divine justice could be meted out.
God is not all loving. He hates evil. He is all powerful and all good. "All loving" is a strawman since loving evil makes you evil.
Foreknowledge and predestination are two completely different things. Just because God knew in advance that you would choose not to love him, does not negate the fact that you still have a choice. God has chosen to love us! You have a choice to love Him in kind. I pray that you choose to embrace the love of God through his Son Jesus Christ 🙏
I agree with Mr. B, foreknowledge does not equal cause. Or just because God knows what we choose doesn’t mean we didn’t freely choose to do it. He knows what choices we will make, but he doesn’t decide them for us we still made that decision ourself. I think her question is though WHY did God make people who he knew would not choose if their ultimate goal was Hell. Also by that logic why did he make satan? At least I think that was the point she was trying to get at and I like her don’t understand why either, I just know that he did, but I still decide to follow him or not.
How you comment on this gives an insight into your spiritual life or lack of maturity: To start, let’s clarify that both, Calvinists and Armenians who have wholly trusted in Christ for salvation are brothers in Christ; attacking one another is contrary to Scripture. “In this you will know that you are my disciples, that you love one another.” Another aspect of this is that it’s ok to struggle with some parts of Scripture and to be humble enough to admit that we are not God and that we don’t know everything. Finally, I’ll just point out one flaw that persists generally in the church: People believe that if God doesn’t send missionaries to a distant tribe that somehow makes that “unfair”. Well, no, Romans is very clear when Paul basically says that “all fall short of the glory of God.” And “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.”So, we as humans cannot fully understand yet the parable of the workers in the vineyard, some worked a full day and some just a few ours and we get angry at the master for being gracious. Both groups: Have confidence that in the end we’re dealing with a just God and nothing He will do will be unjust; stop feeling sorry for Judas.
This is a good analogy of us having free will. Imagine 1,000,000 doors in front of you - you may choose to enter ANY door. You open a door, enter, and view a sign written on the back of the door with your name. OK - you freely chose but God knew what door it would be. ✝️
As is, your analogy is weak in that it is conceivable that all of the doors had your name on them. A way to improve the analogy would be to then show that the other doors did not have your name on them.
@@DerekGreen15 yes, I failed to mention that of the million doors, only one had a sign - you never knew which, but God did.
God knew the door that you would enter. That knowledge won’t change. Now, are you free to not enter that door that God knew you would enter ?
@@TheMirabillis Yes. But if you choose not to, God "would have known" that instead.
@@TheMirabillis It's only if information goes from God's frame of reference (outside of time) back into ours (inside time) that any causality can occur.
I mean she's super confident in her falacy. I'll give her that.
The same people who would never accept "the devil made me do it" as an excuse from someone else are strangely comfortable with "God made me do it" as an escape clause from theism in general. Weak sauce.
Satan can use people it's even in the Bible.
That woman forgets or either chooses to ignore the fact that God gave us free will hoping that we choose him
If you want to think of it more simply: it's literally just like Detroit Become Human, the game. The game knows everything, it knows the outcome of your actions.
These days it really jumps out to me when someone describes God as “all loving”…we seem to regularly lose sight of God being “just”
he is neither, god is evil, as proven by the woman in this video
As someone who was abused ,this is one of the characteristics I Love most about God.
He is the Ultimate judge…..fair and just!!
This woman is like a lot of people in our society today
lack of accountability for their own choices.
She is basically saying God should remove them before they make bad decisions.
Hell was created for Satan and his demons……
Hell is separation from God…..
We are not puppets….people choose who they serve.
Who they serve determines their eternity.
@@lmullett4106 ❤️
Very well said
As a Calvinist, I have no problem with God creating people that he has foreordained to hell. And our response should be Romans 9:19 - 24.
This does however, make the god impossibly evil.
@@CalebScott1991 God defines what is good and what is evil, not you. God will judge you, but you will never judge God.
@@BatMite19 big claim, I'm sure you can back that up with some reason. I guess we'll wait on that LOL
@@CalebScott1991 No need to wait. It is impossible for you, one of several billion living inhabitants on the earth, to be the single arbiter of morality. If there is a God -- a First Cause, Prime Mover, Creator, Source of Life, King of the Universe -- then he is by default the Single Arbiter of Morality. It cannot be any other way.
If there is no God, then this conversation is moot. In either case, one cannot stand in judgment over a God that does not exist; nor can one stand in judgment over a God who is the One I described above.
@@BatMite19 oh now you're claiming I said I'm the single arbiter of morality. Another big claim, I will continue to wait for that screenshot link!
Your second and third paragraph is essentially "if my wild claims are true, then I would be right". So that's meaningless. No argument again.
Hell isn't what most people think it is. Once you understand what it actually is, then this question is easy to answer and things make more sense. Hell is translated from many different words in the Bible, some in Greek and some in Hebrew. Some mean the grave or just death. And the common one that most refer to just means Gehenna which is a literal, physical place that was just outside Jerusalem back in Jesus' day on the Earth. Gehenna was a trash heap that was always burning. There you go. Now with that knowledge, you will need to ask yourself what to do with the topics of demonology and satan, because those also aren't what most people think.
Actually, the word “hell” in the 16th century just meant hades, a place of dead. So when the 16th century translators used it, it did not mean a place of eternal torment. This word “hell” has changed meaning over the years to what it means today. The newer English translations do not use the word “hell” since it is not a literal translation. The phrase lake of fire, had to do with Jewish history, and judgment. It referred to a place where dead bodies went, a physical ever burning dump. In the case of the first century judgment, the Roman soldiers after given the order to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, would have place dead bodies in a valley south of Jerusalem called “Gehenna”. It was their trash dump that was ever burning. The concept of “hell” today, is actually unbiblical. I used to believe in it, hook line and sinker. But not anymore as I did further extensive studies.
Even for human, we know that when we have baby, we know forehand that they will sin at some point.
That doesn't mean we let them sin or say they don't have free will.
Knowing something in advance doesn't mean we let them do those things. They absolutely have freewill just like we rewatch a movie that we like, we know what they're about to do but watch it anyways.
But God does let us Sin
A thought on this (freewill, predestination, hell...etc.) This, current, world/existence we live is was chosen by God as it was the outcome with those God "knew before we were knitted, to be the outcome with the most people that would ever believe in Him.
TL;DR: the best iteration of creation possible with the most people to choose Him. He knew it and made it as such, and it does not negate His love for us.
In this case I like to say something along the lines of, 'if I know X is going clubbing Friday night to get drunk because they do it every Friday night, does that mean I made them?' No, it just means I knew they were going to do it. Their decision had nothing to do with my knowledge.
And this is nothing to do with what the woman is saying.
The Bible says in John 6:44,45. That No man comes to Jesus except the Father draws that man. So yes FATHER Knows all things since the foundations of Faith were laid in the Beginning. AMEN
God, we’ve heard and answered these questions a million times. Why does anyone nowadays get on TikTok to base their entire profile on atheism?
In order to have everlasting life you absolutely must trust in the person and finished work of Christ alone for salvation 💖💖.
God is good, I pray you have eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart that understands.
The LORD has made everything for His purpose-even the wicked for the day of disaster. -Proverbs 16: 4
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things. Drip down, O heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness. Let the earth open up that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; I, the LORD, have created it. -Isaiah 45: 7-8
Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon. “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. -Isaiah 55: 7-11
God bless you all.
Free will for the win! ❤
Human free will is the most powerful force in the universe, even able to overcome God's will! (haha! Most people believe this, but it's not true.)
People will harden their hearts to justified not submitting to the Lord Jesus Christ. This young lady is just showing her hard heart.
She's showing why the Christian god is pure evil. So seems to me, 'hard heart' just means not worshipping evil.
So good on her.
@@CalebScott1991 God died for her sin. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 Seems like love to me.
@@darylefleming1191 you're wrong, and you were lied to. If God died for her sin, you wouldn't pray to him, correct? As praying to a dead god is worthless.
God is all powerful, made one human body to die to act as a loophole for the very rules of sin he created. That isn't a sacrifice, it took 0 effort for him to make a human body to "die", and by the way, knew wouldn't die, because he is all knowing.
And dispite this nothing sacrifice, he still sends the majority of all humans who die every single day, to burn forever in the lake of fire. Pure. Evil.
@@CalebScott1991 You have a choice. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God out Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim 2:3,4
Living a sinful life is hard. Living as a Christian is hard. Choose your hard.
This is under the reasoning that our fate was decided, not that God knew every choice we'd make.
I had to rewatch to make sure I did not mishear the original poster, but I did not mishear:
"If that god does know [whether a human will go to heaven or hell] and chooses to create that human anyways, then he is intentionally creating humans that will suffer for all of eternity."
I realize that she then states that means the person doesn't have free will, which does not logically follow, but whether or not we have free will is irrelevant to the previous statement.
The challenge is that god chooses to create the people whom he will later punish. Why not create only people he will not need to punish? You did not answer that challenge.
She’s just one of those new TikTok atheists who work this way:
“I have a question for you Christians which I’m going to answer myself and forbid access to the real answer before I finish”
The belief in the immortal soul is not Scriptural. 1 Corinthians 15. Immortality is the gift of grace from God.