My Thoughts and Suggestions on the whole Grimoire Thing | State Of The Game | Warhammer40k: DARKTIDE
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- Hello Varlets!
The last few days has seen the Darktide Reddit filled with discussion over the topic of Grimoires in the game.
So, seeing as I forgot to include my thoughts about Scriptures and Grimoires in my Wishlist 2024 video, I figured this would be a perfect opportunity to both cover what I would have done to make Grimoires relevant as well as my position on the whole Grimoire discussion thing.
Darktide 2024 Wishlist video:
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:57 What's Going On?
1:52 Points Of Discussion
2:05 What Are Grimoires?
3:05 Why Pick Up Grims?
4:04 Grim Tension
4:46 Quickplaying Into Grimoire Mission
5:38 2 Common Scenarios
7:48 Misalignment of Objectives
8:50 Piecing Things Together
9:35 My Proposal
10:35 Oppressive Corruption
11:05 Grimoire Rebalance
11:26 Corruption Resistance
11:38 Other Modifiers
12:00 Rewards
12:15 Grimoire Rewards Rebalance
12:23 Monster Rewards Rebalance
12:55 Secret Hard Mode
14:18 Penances
14:33 Proposal Summary
14:44 The 3 Paths
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#darktide #darktidegrim #darktideupdate #darktidereddit #darktide2024
Music:
"Dawn" - Sappheiros
"Darktide Main Theme" - Jasper Kyd
If grims gave you 370+ base items or a level 4 blessing item for carrying 2 - I’d 100% carry them.
Heck, if they gave me a flat amount of plasteel per grim I’d be okay with them (would much rather yours). My problem is they are so unworthwhile. Dockets are nice and all, but Scriptures already do that. Grimoires just feel punishing for the same lame reward. Now giving me extra plasteel at the end of the mission, now you got my attention.
@@NathanFerYou concur'd with both of you. If the goal is "carry an item all match for rewards," then why not make the rewards... _rewarding?_
I think another problem with grims is that there are not always enough missions to go around. This is partially because the playerbase is already small enough and you might not necessarily cause too much division. At the same time though this also forces players to pick up grimoire missions just because it's the most appropriate difficulty for their skill level assuming no grims are picked up.
This is why they worked in Vermintide. The bonus dice rolls for better rewards. In Darktide it's just "here have 1000 more dockets and some EXP that's worthless because you're max level and doesn't contribute to anything".
The only benefit i see to them is the penances thing you get an additional bonus fee for and that can mean some better kit but otherwise i tend to leave them.
Grims should give a second emperors reward per grim with a high chance of purple and gold. In vermintide it gave you a whole extra dice roll if I remember correctly. There was a tangible reward we could see and experience, not just slightly more xp and gold reward.
Not an extra roll, but improved the quality of the chest.
If someone is really invested in that 16 book melk challenge they probably shouldn't look for them in _auric_ missions.
Exactly, it's more doable in normal Damnation
Exactly this, case closed.
All is said here !
Please whoever has a hard-on for the Grimoire melk, stop doing them in Auric!!! I only encountered one of you and you did it in HIGH INTENSITY HUNTING GROUNDS.
people who grab grims on auric missions r probably very good at the game and want it to become harder for an extra challenge@@jlstudio1050
The main problem of the book is there’s nothing satisfying for carrying a book,player would rather just win the auric malestorm mission .
Maybe spawn a unique boss and give everyone a temporary boost as a reward which makes it more fun.
oh yeah! like a side quest. Like an makeshift altar somewhere on mission where you bring grim and use it to summon some boss to fight.
Problem is - it should be at the end of the mission, because you need to find grim during the mission. So maybe before final room? Would be cool, like that idea.
What?
@hecc7906 hUuH??
This is the best Idea I've seen of fixing this!
@@astrovarius543 This is some fortnite type of shit, all they gotta do is give you more dockets and/or some plasteel
I think making it a separate mission is amputating what only needs a bandaid. If you, for example, only made the flat HP loss apply to the holder, with the rest of the team still getting the ticking corruption, it would be much more manageable for those who aren't looking to pick up grims. Or you could make it only the flat HP loss, with no ticking corruption. If the curse was less impactful, I don't think people would complain as much. Then again this is reddit, so they'd just find something new to complain about, like QoL mods or something
Darktide and Destiny 2 community venn diagram is a circle
booooo boring i want a new challenging and rewarding game mode! but i still think the problem remains as your team can still toss by all having their HP clipped
I agree with nuggs here
Grims in Vermintide 2 were an early to mid game way to grind gear, once you get good, play Cata and stack Deeds/Twitch mode or just play modded, there is no reason to grab Grims when just playing Deeds/Twitch mode can just as well provide you with Chests and it's also more rewarding, or juat play modded and have whatever you want to play the real fun stuff where you don't need to grind at all.
In Darktide, I don't like how Grims take away a block of health BUT ALSO then slowly corrupt your health further over time, I wish it was like Vermintide at least where it's just a block of health.
The corrupting part is the worst. Also, not all classes are treated fairly : because they corrupt a flat amount, and not a percentage amount, squishy classes get the bad end of the stick while ogryn maily shrug it off!
Vermintide didn't have any way to combat corruption but in Darktide there are multiple methods. A single zealot with the right perk would negate the corruption ticks all together. It's really not that bad and would be even easier with the changes mentioned in the video.
@@Mr_Giggles Well it did, Grim resistance whatever it was called on your trinket, 33% I believe which was necessary for Book Runs, and Warrior Priest himself had 100% resistance
This. Precisely this. Not only do grims in Vermintide 2 have less of a penalty to Darktide, but they have more of a direct reward. Even on a fresh account, on a character that's still not level 30, grims just aren't worth the extra penalties imo. The penalties need lowered, the rewards need increased, and there should be a balance between the two to make it a challenging yet rewarding side objective that doesn't cause such a rift on whether to do grims or not amongst the team or even greater community. Like, scriptures are fine, because it just means you can't carry a box - at least half my games, I end up not finding one to carry, so that's fine. And the rewards are a little smaller to match the pretty much non-existent challenge of carrying them to the end - the only challenge sometimes is finding them really.
I just really hope that Fatshark can continue to improve this game until it gets to or even somehow surpasses Vermintide 2 in terms of fun and quality. I still absolutely adore V2 and it's one of my top 3 games of all time. I want Darktide to make it to that spot in my heart as well. And aside from the more important things like more content, fixing some bugs, improving poor optimization (settings and performance wise), and going over some of the weird balancing of certain talents and such, fixing the grim issue is a good step towards that long term goal.
me and my friends used to do grim runs even in legend/cata cause of the extra challenge. plus the jump puzzles for some of them were actually fun to do
As a Psyker main, fully understand being left behind.
The "shove it" was the corruption taking over.
I would argue that the main issue with grimoires in darktide is how disproportionately it affects the macrogameplay element of the entire game.
Grims spawn in semi-random places throughout missions which forces you to search for them for potentially prolonged instances, indirectly encouraging you to split with your group in a team based game. The more time people spend away from their group the more likely they are to get killed in an unrescueable spot, and while this is avoidable by searching as a group you cannot ever anticipate or expect a group of 4 random people to have the cohesion and teamwork required to do that - That level of teamwork in quickplay is an exception, not the rule.
Grims lower everyone's flat HP by a specific amount, but also continues to tick everyone's HP down even further which strongly impacts everyone and not just the grim holder, but more importantly disproportionately effects players depending on their class. Ogryns are effected less by the grim debuff due to their healthpool and can operate at a near full capacity for a long time - Psykers and Veterans will feel the debuff much stronger and quicker and will have to play a very different game pretty quickly.
Compare the above to how vermintide did it - Guaranteed memoizable spawns that allowed players to get them quickly and minimize time away from your team, and a flat HP drain that effected the entire team but also a lock on your potion slot that only effected the grim holder and not anyone else.
I think the main reason people gripe at grims is how much more difficult it makes the entire game for everyone, rather than it being more skewed towards the grim holder. I think moving the HP decrease over time effect to only penalize the grim holder would make people much more open to the idea of grims. Changing their spawns to make them a bit more predictable would also help alot, too.
Honestly if the team is aware enough to retreat instead of engage, four players splitting up before hordes/encounters is actually very fast. Problem is if 1 or 2 players are searching the whole map, they'll be gone so long searching 80% of the map alone it delays and increases danger.
Even without mods you can see people literally walk over plasteel and not grab, or open a box and leave it there. Makes it harder on my loot goblin tendencies when my loot goblins boys arent online.
The subreddit blowing up over this has been hilarious to me.
My take, before even watching: Grims aren't rewarding enough for the risks, but I recognize that while I may have quickplayed into the mission, someone may have *explicitly chosen that mission* for the grims. If someone says they need them, cool, but if no one needs them, no one needs them. I won't leave a grim-grabber to die, but I don't think it's wild to hope for some critical thinking around when you should discard the grim if the mission's going poorly for everyone.
You're asking way too much of people if you're asking them to think. Don't you know that common sense and critical thinking are for plebs?? >->
it's usually new players that are assholes when it comes to grims in auric
Absolutely agree. I saw one yesterday as a psyker on the investigation mission on level 4. I left it as it was hard enough as it was. Additional corruption we didn't need.
I think the key issue was people picking them up on auric missions, where enough special modifiers already exists. Grims make those missions nearly impossible, and the culture I've found on auric is people in ignoring the grims entirely because they dramatically increase the likelihood of a wipe.
I think if they didn't penalise your plasteel collected on a wipe that would take the sting out of it a bit. Think you only keep a third of what's collected.
I have never encountered toxicity in this game except in exactly one scenario, where I VERY consistently encounter it. That toxicity is when players DEMAND that I pick up a book (either a scripture or a grim, doesn't matter), and are willing to hold the run hostage until others are willing to comply, even if it means leaving supplies behind. Naturally, this happens more when there's a party of 2 that are the book hunters, as they can prevent any kick vote from passing. This happens with a remarkable consistency any time I happen to quickplay into a mission with books on auric damnation. It's obnoxious that I have to give up the quickplay bonus just because of toxic assholes that will ruin the game with their temper tantrums. IMO Fatshark needs to remove books entirely until they can rework the whole system.
i think the crux of the issue was missed a little bit at the beginning part of the video; the problem that the community has with it is that a random player on the team suddenly has the power to exercise their agency on the entire team and the rest of the team doesnt have any way to stop them other than just letting them die like they did in the original reddit post. saying that anyone loading into a grimoire mission should have the right to pick it up because theyre just exercising their agency only really works as long as that agency only extends to themselves (which in the case of grimoires is not true). I think the best, and probably easiest way, for fatshark to fix this issue is to only have grimoire corruption apply to the player holding it. they could even leave the rewards the same, and it would still make picking up grimoires much more worthwhile, just because theres less risk involved with it; a low risk, low reward situation, versus how it is now, where its a high(ish) risk, low reward scenario.
Amen 🙏🏻
I think this is incorrect for a few reasons;
1) It's a team game, everything that affects one member affects the team's output. For example, one person leaving the match makes the game more difficult for everyone, even if nobody is being directly debuffed.
2) There have always been multiple ways players can negatively affect the team beyond grims. Taking more ammo than they should, blowing up barrels, taking medicaes, aggro daemonhost, meme builds, etc. Players always have and always will have the power to sabotage a run, either on purpose or on accident.
This issue, however, is far more avoidable...simply dont queue into auric grim if you sincerely dont want the possibility of someone picking up a grim. It's that simple. Quickplay in, check to see if it has grims, if grims, leave, re-queue. Easy. Some people think it's fun to have an extra challenge, and that's not up to anyone to decide what "fun" is.
Tldr; let people have challenge/fun on the maps that are literally designated as such. If you don't like it...go to literally any other map.
@@ammon260 the difference is that someone accidentally taking an ammo pickup or taking a medicae when they shouldnt is not an active debuff to the rest of the team. its not optimal play, but it normally doesnt significantly reduce the odds of being able to finish the mission like grims can. any player wanting to be malicious by intentionally taking all of the ammo drops or trying to blow people off the maps with barrels is obviously going to be able to do that, but grimoires are an "intended" way of playing. Its just bad game design when something thats an intended way of playing is having to be compared to someone trolling for the sake of making an argument about what players should be able to do
to be clear, i dont disagree with the sentiment of "if you dont want to play with grimoires, dont play grimoire missions" or "just dont get hit and then the corruption isnt an issue", but the possibility of quick play queueing into these missions means that sometimes you just are going to be stuck into a grimoire mission and youd rather just deal with it instead of sitting through multiple minutes of loading screens
Vote to kick the player, on one mission the guy was an ass the entire way, picking up the grim we asked him not to, overextending, and aggro'd a DH after asking him not to.
So we finished the level and then right before the end, voted to kick him. Zero XP, Zero Materials, and Zero grims for him.
The system for dealing with players like that is already in place it's just not being used
I'm comparing the two because trolling/being bad/griefing vs. grabbing a grim are all parts of the game that make the mission more difficult. The intended purpose of grims is to add challenge for a small reward. Yeah, the risk/reward is pretty skewed and should probably be adjusted. It's literally what the intended purpose is behind grims, though, and griefing players going for that intended purpose is kinda shitty tbh. You can't avoid the trolling, dameonhost spawns, bad play, etc, but you can avoid grims without affecting other players' experience of how they want to play the game.
I think what bothers me so much about this whole thing is that the solution non-grimmers have to take is so so simple and easy (avoiding those missions or leaving), but they'd rather coerce/grief other people simply playing the game as intended. The game makes grims easily avoidable, and consciously not utilizing what the game gives you to avoid grims, and instead griefing the people that DO want grims, is again, kinda shitty. Grim players have no alternative if they want grims. They have to play grim missions. Players who do not want the extra challenge/skewed risk reward can simply go to ANY other map.
While I agree grims tend to add more difficulty than a bad teammate (not always the case tbh), it's literally a part of the game people can easily avoid. It's super controllable.
I think the whole Grimm issue boils down to two things: A lack of agency for the people who didn't pick it up, and people being punished for the actions of another person. Realistically speaking, short of a vote-kick or deliberate sabatoge, there is literally nothing to stop someone from picking it up, even if half the team is against them doing so. Which then boils into the second problem: someone who explicitly wanted to avoid the Grimm is now losing a chunk of their HP and taking constant corruption because someone else decided to ignore their own opinion.
I really think that the corruption should just apply to the person who picks it up. I feel like people would be WAY less salty if they weren't punished with corruption and continous health loss because someone else did something that they themselves just didn't want to do.
Edit: on missions where I *definitely* don't want someone grabbing a Grimm, I've taken to picking them up myself, and then IMMEDIATELY destroying them. You still lose health, but destroying them at least removes the corruption and prevents someone else from grabbing and keeping the thing.
imo the main problem with grims is that the reward you get from them just isn't worth it at all. more exp is completely usles ones you hit level 30 as is more dockets. if you got more materials for them and scripters id do them every time. i did all tomes and grims in vermintide basically exclusively, because there they ment something, in darktide they dont.
would love new missions that shake up the premise of what we need to do in a mission. The special category for assignments has so much potential. one could even think about it as the story mode for the game. I really hope they don't remove missions from it, and instead keep adding more so that we eventually build a library of narrative missions the help flesh out the story.
I'm really into increased enemy spawn from grimoires.
I don't bother with them and always change contract. Give us incentive to carry them to the end when EXP and Dockets really does nothing anymore once you have god-rolled items.
It's 100% a waste of time and effort and adds an extra factor that can lead to a group wipe. If they actually changed loot rolls like in previous tide games it might be understandable.
It was always common to ask first in VT2 and you can just leave if you're the only one that wants to do the grims. This is the video game version of the shopping cart scenario, if you're rude and making poor choices don't complain if you get left behind.
I love the structure of your videos, always so well put and informative. Well explained led and easy to understand.
It was common decency in vermintide 2, to ask if anyone wanted to do grims. Ask first, it is that easy
If they gave a better chance of good item rolls or more money/resource multiplier it would be worth taking them.
Still, ask first
True, we’re just here to killing heretics and time,not carrying a book to make our mission more difficult.
Grims were basically a low to mid game grind way to obtain gear, once you reach Cata, stacking Deeds and maybe Twitch mode, you never do Grims as the rewards from Deeds/Twitch can be just as good and more satisfying.
don't drag the team down in a heresy or damnation game, if you NEED the books, do it in a level 2 or 3
I think I prefer a little less overthinking on the matter. Turning it into a new form of content is a fine idea and all, but it's really making a meal out of what is a small issue.
Simply put, I don't think corruption from picking up a Grim should affect the entire team, but just the holder.
Problems I foresee with this: expecting certain characters like Zealots and Ogryns to be the dedicated book bearers. Grimoires currently don't hit Ogryns as hard as everyone else given their natural wound increase and the level of health/tankiness baked into their kit. I like to think that I'd be happy to do that for my team while playing one of these tankier classes, however, if it only affected me. No skin off my back. I just think that if it was a personal burden, then it would take pressure off the team and make it less of a consensus issue. If *you* want that Grim, *you* better be ready to buck up because it's *your* problem.
This might still aggravate some people. I expect them to bend over backwards to find blame for a mission failing no matter what, though. I think the main problem is the current iteration punishes people for not having planned for this very niche but *serious* modifier of difficulty. No one really runs Grimoire Resistance when quickplaying for obvious reasons. It's a waste if there's no Grimoires, and if you're picking missions specifically for the book weekly, why wouldn't you pick Scriptures (even if on a lower difficulty for that matter where people are much more likely to cooperate). It's not that it's too much to ask, it's simply logical. I see the book weekly as an entirely selfish reasoning for forcing Grims on a team that does not want them. You didn't need to keep that weekly, you didn't need to do it on some of the hardest modifiers available without everyone's approval. Of course, it's on whoever joins who is in the minority to excuse themselves.
Also, the only reason it affects the entire team from a design point of view is because that's how it was in Vermintide. It is a holdover from previous games with the only innovation on the subject being that it is *even less rewarding but an even harder detriment* given the constant ticking away of health until the point of leaving *everyone* on one wound. This was not the case in Vermintide. You still got one chance to get revived, and curse resistance was a natural contender for everyone's kit when playing on Legend (T4) because it has a low opportunity cost. Grimoires were omnipresent on every level, and there was always a solid chance someone wanted them because there was literally no difference in loot between Legend and Cataclysm (T5). Cataclysm was just for the fun of the difficulty boost, unlike Damnation in Darktide, which comes packed with pretty serious benefits over lower difficulties.
The bottom line for me is that currently picking up Grims is meaningless. The level of difficulty they bring does not equate in any meanginful way to the reward you get, so Grims either simply need to be nerfed like this or the reward needs to be buffed, if not both. Dockets aren't an important, rare resource to farm for as Aurics already dump boatloads of them into your wallet (only important to people who play Brunt's slot machine, really, or for switching Melk's Contracts, I guess), and XP farming becomes negligible and more of a pointless status symbol for people using True Level. It is just a detriment to the entire team that someone can choose to force on others at any time, others who sometimes could not have prepared for it without taking a chance by wasting some very valuable curio slots.
I have an easier solution: In the missions terminal options, add a yes/no option for books and match players based on this.
Exactly. Problem solved.
But people love to bitch about things
Splitting the available players into two groups for matchmaking isn't a small change.
Well said. Thank you for approaching this topic. I have not been on reddit Darktide since because of this craziness.
i think the overall problem with a random taking a grim is the general health of other players.
as an ogryn or zealot im totally fine with grims, but when i play as psyker or vet it makes my health go below 50% in a couple minutes.
so to kinda fix that a solution might be take % of overall health and not ticks with a specific health quantity, this could be a nerf to ogryns but if the % of health taken by the grim is not that demanding it could work fine for everyone
(i don't use health curios on vet or psyker cause i don't see a real use for them on my gameplay)
While I might suggest having the creeping corruption from holding one in Grim Retrieval only apply to the person holding it, in general the key point of 'let people choose to deal with it' rings true to me.
I preferred when books generally and grims specifically were in set locations behind puzzles. I think they are a cool optional difficulty slider, but I wish they had much better rewards. I also agree that they should probably be in their own queue, so people can gear appropriately with curse resist curios.
Imagine if grims gave you a unique, powerful crafting resource. That would see a big swing in interest in gathering them.
I've specifically left a couple grimmers for dead. Ive only done it in very rare cases where I genuinely believe that player is more useful dead. Despite how meme worthy some hyperbolic examples are, Im being very literal. That rare player who explodes busters on me or team, ignores revives/rescues, deals low damage,takes frequent damage while using every medstation/medkit, and after all of those observed behavior, grabs a grim. Its so rare a player hits all categories, but Ive seen a couple, and won both games.
Solution: Add the ability to de-select certain modifiers from your quick play playlist and scale the reward benefits based on what remains an option, rather than a flat bonus. People choose to deselect grimoires as an option and they lose some percentage from the bonus rewards. Plenty of games use a similar system of quick play where you can save a preset of what game modes you don't want to play, and optionality means everyone wins.
In VT2, with red items, it was always default to pick up grims and books on legend (when I was playing b/c it was considered the farming difficulty) and on cata and above, it was usually at the discretion of the team, but it was usually skipped. I think the issue is that, in VT2, every map has grim/tomes except FoW (omitting Weaves and CWs since they are wholly different modes and they don't have them, of course) whereas your opportunities to pick up grims/tomes in DT are restricted by a (albeit dumb) design which is a topic for another comment.
Personally, I don't care if someone wants to pick up a grim. If I queued up in a grim map, thems the risks I take. If grims bothered me that much, my ass shouldn't have queued up in a grim map and I even have the option of leaving if I didn't know beforehand (as is the case of qp).
Hell instead of making it a special assignment just add a corruption mode node in general like the auric missions do on the map, would make sense for them to add any future gamemodes there aswell. Maybe if each mode gave specific material rewards apon completion for doing them, for instance if chaos wastes came back, an extra 20% plasteel from playing it specifically, an extra 20% diamantine from the corruption missions, then spread those bonuses to other game modes. Then you have multiple options for players to get specific loot and such from specific game modes, and if you don't happen to like one of the game modes that provides the extra plasteel, you can choose the other game mode, or have it on a weekly rotator
Love the idea. Keep the scriptures in normal levels and make the grimoires their own thing.
If they are too lazy to make it too big of a thing, they could just take away the corruption and add have them add random modifiers to the stage.
Good video and suggestions. Lately anti-grim is on the rise. I've had my poor psyker run down to 1 HP more times than I would like lol. Mostly if someone asks "Grims?" in the chatbox, it works out that one or two players say 'nah', and that's the end of it. I don't collect grims and dismiss grim contracts from Melk because its not worth it. Extra challenge is ok with a good team but that's just more random chance added to already big risk of carrying grim.
My thoughts on Grimoire and Tome are that they are high risk, low reward. The additional experience points become irrelevant once you reach level 30, and the currency is so small that it is meaningless.
To solve the problem, we need to increase the rewards. Simply bring the book to the end of the mission and each member of the team will receive high-quality equipment as a reward. Each Tome gives you 1 piece of equipment, and each Grimoire gives you 2 pieces of equipment. And if you bring everything regardless of the type, giving 2 to 3 additional pieces of equipment will provide more motivation to take them all.
Or better yet, give them some sort of ticket instead of equipment. then this ticket can be used at Armory/Melk or Hadron. When you use a ticket in Armory/Melk, you can select a specific weapon type and receive a gold-grade weapon with a high score for that weapon type. This way you can reduce the RNG factor to get the weapon you want.
And if you give Hadron a ticket, Hadron will exchange this ticket for a certain amount of crafting materials. Alternatively, it would be great to be able to exchange locked perks or blessings in exchange for a large amount of tickets.
Grims are not a must/must not and thats fine for me. I normally see the grim holder go down and then its gone anyway but if you make a good point that the grim is going to cause wipe most holders will drop it. I do think its fun that there is conflict about touching the cursed books as there should be.
Fat Shark really needs to hire you already, man. Great video!
Honestly if there was a box to to click that allows you to choose if you want grims in a mission when you quickplay would solve some of the issues.
I’ve never had grimoires lose me a game but I have been in a grimoire game where no one actively went for grimoires and we benefited from ammo and health boxes. That’s it
I think grims should only give the health debuffs to the person carrying it and not the team mates.
The real problem is a group making/social problem Fatshark cooked into the game. You don't que up in the lobby, then go in... you que up then get thrown into a lobby or a mission in process. Fatshark made this problem when it could have been avoided with some communication before the match starts.
I really miss how Vermintide handled lobbies, hanging out in the pub before or between missions, talking strategies, getting on the same page, and then kicking ass. Darktide just throwing you into missions feels way worse in comparison.
Another easy solution is to include grims in missions and have it only corrupt the player holding it. They can decide if they are up for the challenge. And then the whole team benefits. Easy win!
This is the type of problem that no matter the change will still be a problem in some way. I think it best to just make a better version of it's current form and keep it at that. I'd propose two revisions:
Make Melk's 16 book contract count for team pick up rather than player only pick up.
Change rewards from EXP & Dockets to a Palasteel & Diamantine boost and/or boost emperor gift rarity.
I think if we consolidated the pain of grims onto the single person carrying them it would be fine. double the corruption gained from grims, but only affects the player carrying them. then increase the rewards for extracting with it to the tune of high rarity/rating weapons or upgrade materials
07:44 I completely disagree. Both parties cannot _both_ be correct at the same time.
In the first situation, the person joining was asked not to pick up the Grimoire and _did it anyway._
In the second situation, the team that was already there picked up the Grimoire _before_ the new player joined.
In the first situation, the person joining was inconsiderate and, in my opinion, deserve the blame for adding extra difficulty to the mission that the existing players were trying to avoid.
In the second situation, the existing players _already agreed_ to get the Grimoire. It was the person who joined that threw their proverbial toys out of the pram and ruined things for everyone when they could simply leave and join a different game if they don't want to play with Grimoires.
"adding extra difficulty to the mission that the existing players were trying to avoid."
So... skill issue, yeah? If you trying to avoid extra difficulty - then be better?
In the first situation, the players should not have picked a Grimoire mission. Case closed.
@@Flopdoodle "If you don't want to get hit by a car, why drive?"
Maybe we can make it common practice, as a community, to state that you're on a grimoire run during the "Ready" stage of quickplay. That way you can at least have an idea who's on board before you're halfway through a mission.
That is sadly not always the case on quickplay, especially when joining an ongoing mission.
The problem with grims in Darktide is that the risk/reward just isn't there. The reward for picking up a grimoire is so anemic that there's no real way to justify picking them up. If you want an extra challenge, that's one thing, but as is there's really no reason to pick them up or even to have the contract for getting them. This was another problem that was solved in the Vermintide series that Fatshark completely forgot about for Darktide.
Helmet cosmetic (very cool)
I feel like secret hard mode would become the new grim problem if something opt-in like that was included.
Otherwise its a nice idea, perhaps too nice though. Feel like it could split the player base quite severely.
I've never call anyone out on picking up grims, but there's a decision to be made when I quickplay into a grim mission, because it increases the chance of wasting my time. Hadron already wastes all my time with his anti-crafting. Wouldn't be so bad if the corruption only affected the holder, and/or you got a small scaling damage buff as the corruption increased. I can't carry anyone in Damnation, so I bail from grim missions at the start in case someone does want to grab them.
Challenge and additional rewards is why I grab grims. I only grab em on malice and heresy tho. (heresy is my go to difficulty)
I wish people would just read the team before they grab grims. If we're doing well and you grab one, and then we fail, ok sure it happens. But if we were already scraping by and you grab one, you have taken an unnecessary risk. I quickplay most of the time for various reasons, and don't mind getting grims occasionally, but some folks are so dead-set on them they don't consider if the mission will even succeed at all.
Excellent solution, I like it!
They just need to find an alternative to corruption, like causing hallucinations or other lore-friendly distractions.
It’s interesting seeing the differences in grims for Vermintide and Darktide where on Cata everyone is going for grims and tomes and if you don’t you can get kicked
Darktide is the opposite if you grab grims people will complain and let you die, but then in Vermintide grims are really good and go towards giving a guaranteed emperor’s chest; the rewards in Darktide are just not enough especially in damnation+ cause by then character xp is useless
Just give scriptures and grimoires a material reward, ie plasteel. It can be flat or a multiplier, and obviously grims should give more. Dockets no longer matter after a certain point and especially if you don't rely entirely on spamming greys. I don't think there's any need to "fix" the question and drama about when its okay to pick up a grim, as long as the material rewards are enticing enough that it simply becomes unspoken approval even during high difficulty missions (for those players and their skills).
LOL 2:59 I did that once by accident: destroyed the Grim and the team got incredibly irate with me.
- Personally common sense would be to simply ask.
My Beef: No Rewards. We need some cooler bonuses/incentive for Books and Demonhost (,I'd like to see a mission that even tells you to go meet an operative and they turn out to be possessed by a Demonhost or just hunt Demonhosts). I don't even get why the books themselves don't give you a bonus like:
- Grimoire could enhance damage equal to corruption like it is corrupting the team with POWER!
- Scriptures could enhance toughness
- Both books would raise the amount of enemies, this can be reduced at anytime by destroying the books
- Reroll grim/scrip contract (takes too long since if you quickplay there's no guarantee you get a map w/ them)
- I've been running on heresy and damn for better part of a year, so coin is a non-issue
- I ignore grims if I run across them (scrips I'll pick up since no penalty)
- If someone else picks them up, I'm not even bothered; they're there in the mission and maybe those folks need the extra cash
I'm just flabbergasted how end mission rewards in this game are so basic and pointless when you compare DT to how VT2 handled grims (among a LOT of other things)
Super easy fix for fethajar add a major plasteel bonus for purging the unclean filth
I agree with you and like your solution. Although I think allowing anti-corruption talents to work would be great, they make those even more valauble. The only problem is that not all classes have them, so Fatshark would need to add them.
I feel the grim should give 50% more dockets per grim. that way when you get both grims then you could get 100% more dockets. I think that would be much better than the 60%, and might make people want to find them. Additionally I think fat shark should implement the same system they had in vermintide and vermintide II when it came to books and grims as well as give a box reward system like those games.
I think the benefits of grims get WAY overstated. If you want dockets go for scriptures. If you want to complete contracts just reroll the book one because that's a minimum 8+ mission one. If you want a challenge ---play on a higher difficulty--- Grims are a stupid tax.
If you load into a Grimm missions, be it directly, or QuickPay, it's on you to accept that they are there.
If you don't want to, don't play quick play or that mission.
If you are not prepared, that's your problem.
picking grims arent worth the trouble, theres literally no point in them, just like daemonhosts, picking grims in auric without asking is literally griefing...
I do the 16 book contract every week, best way to go about it is to just run 2's and 3's if you want to pick up grims without having to worry about what it'll do to your team. On Heresy I'll ask, most of the time no one cares. Damnation/Auric though I don't even bother, unless the team decides to go for them, and if we wipe, we wipe. Just ask and abide by the decision, and if you're on higher difficulties and someone picks one up against the team's wishes and refuses to destroy it, vote to kick, blast their ass off the map with a barrel, or leave them to die. Really don't understand why this is such a contentious issue.
Making the grim missions focus on the grims as suggested is a good idea.
As for letting grim pickers as the game is now die, please don't. Be nice to each other. You can discuss with them if you don't feel success is possible with it and respect the answer. Same if you're the picker. I've been on both ends of those, both ditching a grim for the team and asking others on my team to do it too on occasion. To me it's a cool book item to play with on elevator rides and a bonus lost but you do stand a better chance of success without it and I accept if a team wants it ditched or not even picked up.
Anyway, please be nice to each other. It's meant to be a fun and social co-op game for team building, not a battle of egos or leaving someone you disagree with behind to be taken by a horde. Save that for other games with PVP. ;)
Slight side topic, but if they are still going to keep the books contract, I think it would be nice to at least always have 1 mission for every difficulty with tomes. I can't really recall seeing anybody complain about people grabbing or not grabbing tomes and it would at least leave the option for anybody who plays at any difficulty consistent access to missions with books and not have to worry about the potential issues with grabbing grims.
I think one thing that makes Grims so awful in this game that doesn't get talked about enough is the random spawns. In V1 and 2 they were set spawns you had to know about and discovering them was part of the fun, you also had to go out of your way to get them so players wouldn't just stumble onto them mid mission like the post that kicked this off. Even fi they weren't worth it they felt special enough to be an important mechanic and for everyone to pay attention and be on the same page.
In Darktide, they're just another random drop in the mission, so the gravitas of picking one up isn't appropriately conveyed to the players, leading people to pick them up on a whim and then things spiraling out of control when the rest of the team now has to deal with the consequences.
In terms of game design and how elements are communicated to the players, the way grimoires work in Darktide is a massive step backwards. Thankfully at least someone at Fatshark noticed players like these slightly hidden mechanics/objectives so we got the Bells mechanic in the twins mission. Hopefully that's a first step to bringing back better Tome and Grim placement systems.
Instead of making a new game mode I think the easier way would be to remove grimoire missions from quick play and make them as 'the player has to pick it from the mission select only' the main problem is most people don't want to do grimoire missions in quick play but want the resource boost from quick play so if they are separated people who specifically want grimoire missions will match with like-minded people and everyone else will do regular missions resulting in no more arguing.
I wish grims acted like chaos waste modifiers. You get a small perk while the run gets some wild new condition. More variation in gameplay would be more of a motivator than gear tbh.
scriptures are fine mostly, grimores unlike in vt2 you arent expected to carry the grimore specific resistance on the 9 slot available. even then, in darktide it continuously corroupts unlike in vermintide. i think just having a "book", for example, grimores have 2x modifier, on XP and stuff gained while scriptures just give out 30% of the original mission value. so total of 190% if you have all 3 scriptures, and 4x for 2 grimores.
Carrying a single grim and extracting should multiply all rewards by double. Carrying a full set of grims or scrips and getting to the end should triple all rewards. Doing it on Auric should get a team straight up a million credits. If its a Maelstrom, 1.5m at least. Carrying grims is insanely difficult and it adds such a fine bar for performance that everyone needs to be on their A game. That's a lot to ask of randoms. Hell, its a lot to ask of some teams of friends. It should have such a significant benefit that its worth doing.
Think the rewards should just be made more impactful, and make it so that every mission has either scripture or grims to pick up. If we can normalise and even expect full grims in every run in Vermintide, I don't see why we couldn't in Darktide too. I really believe it's just a case of them not being valuable loot. It's not exactly gonna net you an Emperor vault where you'd otherwise get a Merchant or Soldier vault.Would make beacon of purity a more interesting choice to battle the corruption anyways, and if you have worthwhile rewards, I could see people getting disappointed if you abandoned the grim instead
What if Grim would only take a flat amount off the person carrying, and whilst in coherency with them allies take corruption. So that way you can run grims and theres a way to mitigate the punish on the whole team.
If the main concern is consent from other players , hide the grimoaire in a special chest that is opened with a lever from close by . So two players must coordinate in order to get a grim . This would be a quick mechanical fix .
My main problem with the whole Grim issue is I had no idea there were negative effects. I had experienced the corruption effect but it was never explained in game. Not sure if I just missed it or if I had to dig for it. Do scriptures have any effect in picking them up as well? There's a big problem where basically nothing is explained in game, it'd be nice to have melk give a tiny explainer when you meet him.
I wonder if putting a maximum cap on the health corruption would help, Vermintide 2 only cost 1/3 of max hp per book and you could mitigate that down even more.
Maybe if it was capped either as %max hp or say up to a wound per book, could make wound curios and really that whole system feel more valuable to anyone other than martyrdom zealots
Penance for grim carrying each level would be nice... and something like red weapon availability for high penance scores. Like if you are over 1k penance score or 1.5k-2k, have reds in game and have em appear in Melk's shop.
I always do quickplay mission, mainly because I prefer the randomness. I will never pick up a Grimoire, because I find the risk reward ratio is just too poor. But I usually won't ask people to drop Grimoires, apart from the blight scanning mission on HL18-16? In my experience that mission is an autofail with Grimoires. I agree Grimoires should be a seperate mission excluded from quickplay, and to actually make those missions attractive, there should be much better rewards for gathering grims. A bunch of plasteel and a gold weapon per grim pluss ordo dockets would be nice. Perhaps even some special cosmetics when you have picked up a certain amount. Or how about some blessings from father Nergal? Say, 10% more health for -5% movement, or more toughness for a slight penalty to dodge distance? Anything Nergal themed. Overall the blessings should be balanced to be beneficial, so penalties shouldn't be made to severe, more symbolic.
Hmm, yes, justifying griefing because it's a game mechanic is fun. Because nah, picking up grimiores when other player(s) are vocally against picking them up is griefing, getting left behind in a fire fight is fair at that point. The other player(s) are making a decision at that point that the grimiore is more of a liability than the grim holder is an asset. If it saves the mission, it saves the mission.
I just dont pick them up, but i dont begrudge the people who want to pick them up.
I would love to pick up Grims or scripts bc it is really fun to hunt for extra stuff. I just have 2 issues.
1) the reward for going out of your way is nothing. The Melk contract can be rerolled practically for free. Extra Dockets? It's so easy to get dockets just by playing the game.
2) theyre so hard to find. Maybe if they were more rewarding i wouldnt mind, but i just dont need more dockets. If i could use scripts and Grims as a currency to get a chance at some uber rolled gear that would be neat. But once i got my good gear, id be back to not caring im sure.
In response to the original inspiration for the video:
1) I don't like grims, but I won't say anything if you pick them up
2) I wouldn't condone the sabotage of an ally who takes a grim (or for any reason, it's a team game)
3) I prioritize picking up allies, so I wouldn't do it myself, but I also wouldn't blame someone else for not picking up someone who takes a grim. If you die with a grim it's destroyed. If you can't stay alive with grims, don't take them.
In response to the video: I would absolutely be fine with grims if the rewards were worth it. Plenty of games just fail in 5 seconds because the director had an aneurysm, or because players misunderstand priorities, or panic, or other reasons. I don't mind losing a game here or there because of grims. What I do mind is that when we do succeed we get jack for it.
I like the suggestions. They'd improve a lot, and I might even do those missions because they grant a much greater opportunity for reward. I usually just do quick play for the 10% materials reward. I really can't understand specifically queueing for grims, because it costs you the materials from quickplay, nvm having to deal with grims themselves. But i've only been playing a couple months, so I still get a lot of use out of plasteel and dockets.
I prefer your solution or a variation of it. Imo removing the book missions from Melk would be a great start. I feel as if some people do not enjoy the book missions but feel that they must do them to maximize Melku coins. With such a low effort move, you'd remove a significant portion of the people that go for the books. I think most people that are comfortable with damnation understand that the proportion of money you get from having all books vs no books is so small it doesn't make it worth it. So then you would just have the "difficulty seekers" remaining, but if one wants a more difficult mission, one can always go on Maelstrom since the difficulty added by Grims is so artificial it's not even fun as a challenge for most people.
Hilariously, I've never ever run into someone who complained about anyone picking up a book. Just don't do a mission with grims if you don't want to do it. "Noooo, you're doing the thing we all signed up for." You made the choice. You chose the grim modifier mission. It's a listed modifier. It's an objective that everyone benefits from if done. If you can't play your class with all grims held on auric, you chose the wrong mission modifier or difficulty. If you picked quickplay, you signed up for doing anything and everything.
Also, to add to this discussion, what if grim and tome collection allowed you to swap 2 stats on your weapon? I don't know how many 370-380 weapons I've thrown away or passed on b/c I have quad 80s on a weapon only to have a 50 or whatever on the primary stat I want a high number in. The number of grims/tomes that have to be collected can be adjusted, of course.
if you do the grim/script contract youre wrong anyways. why am I gonna do like 12 missions to get 16 books when I could just do like 3 to get plasteel and diamantine?
but also, NOONE GETS LEFT BEHIND. even if theyre rude.
Something that would be a lot more interesting then its current state it would that when you discard a grim activates a special action on enemies, my idea would be something like i have a grim while playing on Auric Mealstrom or simply Auric Damnation mission and my Teammates are all down and there's just so many stuff going on that to save them you have an option that is you use the grim to idk make enemies think that you're one of them because you used the grim and you have so much corruption in your health giving a chance to save your alies which would make grims actually an valuable option to discard if needed, sure you wouldn't be able to get more rewards? Yes but it would make a good reason to actually carry a grim on hardest difficulties which combine with my idea and all solutions you gave it would make things a lot more interesting than just corruption and more rewards(which is not even that much) maybe my idea is a little absurd? Yes but it doesn't need to be the way i told it could something even better and I'm pretty sure the whole community and devs would find a better solution for this. Very good video man
Honestly, the implementation of grims and scriptures in darktide feels like it was put in without mich thought, especially considering the fact the game was pushed towards release very undercooked. Fatshark definitely should rework the whole thing
After you pitching it as a mission type i do wonder why it was put in as a modifier, wonder if its a legacy thing from v2
A timed mission w constant horde sounds fun as hell honestly.
Open to FS either expanding rewards or turning them into its own mission type
I didn't really know what it rewarded, I just assumed it helped you get better item drops at the end like vermintide. It doesn't seem like its a very good reward for the risk now that I know lol.
Either way I'd drop it if somebody asked, but I'm not gonna say anything if anyone else grabs one. I'll adjust either way. Idk.
That crosshair is great, how did you get it?
Its almost as if there's a lot of people who didn't learn to lose or deal with circumstance. Sounds like the right move is to leave it as is ...
Simple solution - have a vote pre mission to pick them up or not...
I love the Helmet Cosmetic (very cool) suggestion, I like it (very cool)
tbh i didnt knew about that debuff coming from the grim, now that I heared it it makes sense, but literally noone told me before in my 15 hours of playing dark tide
I miss weapon guides. You could do mark comparison videos? Like how do the different IAGs worked? Obviously theres one thats the best atm, but what niches do the others fill, etc, could be an intersting deep dive
My method is tier 3 and below I always pick them up as I can easily solo carry the game tier 4 it depends on how well my team is playing tier 5 almost never as I cant guarantee my team wont fold under the pressure.
I usually only play auric damnation missions but if I'm doing a mission that has grims i always my team if they want/dont want to do them and if shit hits the fan and my team is struggling, i always get rid of it
Since grims are in the game it would be shame to remove them. As you said separating them on the mission board and excluding them from quickplay should do the job. On a top of that improving the rewards so they are worth the challenge.
I think a different game mode would split players. I don't see a need for a separate game mode but more plasteel on monstrosity kills and books retrieval would be a nice change.
These mf'ers need to pay you just for this recommendation alone, man you are under appreciated