Here is a much more detailed and lengthy video on the same subject: ruclips.net/video/TkiP64adGjY/видео.html Also due to the overwhelming negative response (lol of course it’s expected) I highly recommend everyone to research on their own. Think of this video as an introduction. Plenty of good videos out there and articles on this subject by other RUclipsrs and bloggers. apologies for the sound issues. It sounded fine when editing and testing before upload but idk. Apologies. A couple of things I left out in the Compare and Contrast section simply for time: 1. Each character has a Best Friend Sidekick- Elric and Geralt each travel their respective worlds with a friend(s). In Elrics case it’s Moonglum. Moonglum is a womanizing alcoholic comedic idiot Rogue. Who love women just as much as his axes. They travel together often or stumble into each other. Elric also has Wheldrake a..:yup you guessed it- comedic Bard sidekick for an adventure or two. Geralt has Dandilion Primarily. A womanizing alcoholic comedic idiot Bard who loves his women just as much as poetry. Geralt and him travel often together or yup you guessed it...bump into each other. 2. Each universe runs on Multiverse Theory system. (Michael Moorock first introduced The Multiverse in his story The Sundered Worlds in 1963. And of course would use it throughout his work.) They each have a (and I’m not even kidding here, it’s the exact same name) Conjunction of The Spheres event that kicks off their respective universes. The conjunction is a cataclysmic event in which The Multiverses collide invading each other. Either destroying and resetting the universes or having creatures invade. The conjunction happens every million years or something. Now I’m mostly talking about the books here but if you believe the Witcher games are canon (technically yes seeing as how CDPR owns the rights) then the conjunction can happen again. Although in Sapkowski books the conjunction was a one time thing. In Moorcocka work the conjunction is an event that happens every so often. 3. You’ll notice they are both called The White Wolf.... 4. I also find it odd that Book Geralt is quite thin for being a professional monster killer don’t you? Almost like he still needs potions...he also gets his ass handed to him more than once in the books. 5. (someone pointed this out in a thread I forgot to throw in also) Destiny, Fate- Law Chaos Balance: Each series has incredibly strong themes of that throughout. I mention it passing by in the video. Elric seems to talk about it every chapter or so especially in the later part of the series. The Witcher blabs about it from page 1 to the ending of the series in Lady of The Lake. They are each (whether they believe it or not) bound by fate and deny or accept it or are reluctant. Now I get it- Fate and Destiny is a common thing among the fantasy genre. But again, when your albino mercenary spellsword blabs about it constantly... The Witcher games are a different story for another time. Same with Game of Thrones. Finally for some reason the text in this video keeps messing up even after testing and it worked fine before rendering. Anyways I’ve exhausted myself on this subject I think but feel free to keep the debate going and be kind and courteous.
>You’ll notice they are both called The White Wolf.... Do you even know why Geralt is called the "white wolf"? Part of it is the hair which was the results of experiments done on him as a child until Elric who was born with it. The other part being the fact that we went to the School of the Wolf. > I also find it odd that Book Geralt is quite thin for being a professional monster killer don’t you? Yes, because Geralt is a direct repudiation of characters like Conan and a reflection of historical knights being rather svelte with a wasp-thin waste. Look up paints from the era and you will see mean who are the polar opposite of what we image a knight to be. > (someone pointed this out in a thread I forgot to throw in also) Destiny, Fate- Law Chaos Balance: Each series has incredibly strong themes of that throughout. I mention it passing by in the video. These are minor themes, at best. There's an optional conversation about them in the first GAME that is more food for thought. It's something that has no bearing on the plot. While I'm at it, the ideas of chaos/balance was pioneered by Empedocles in 5th century BC.
@@TheTundraTerror 1. He also slaughters entire villages further adding To the monicker. He also fights like a wolf on the battlefield. Sounds a lot like another albino I know from the 60s. 2. Geralt is thin because Elric was and Geralt is a rip off of that character. Kind of reaching with that medieval art take. Good idea though. Sorry if Geralt is so good with a sword and badass monster slayer no excuse for him to be thin. He also dresses in black. 3. Law and chaos and balance are literally the main themes carried across the entire Witcher book series and it’s more than just one conversation in the first game. It’s in 2 and 3 also.
@@Calypso694 1. I would like to point out that White Wolf or the Wolf Totem is a really old tradition in Slavic culture. According to the old pagan religion Dajbog (Dazbog, one of high deities) transformed into white wolf. This was often recreated by Slavic warriors by wearing wolf skin. If I am not mistaken Saxo Gramaticus wrote about it. In some Slavic traditions Slavs are descendants of wolves. Wolves play a huge role in Slavic culture in general. People were often named Vuk or Volk (depending on language/dialect, meaning wolf). Some Roman legions wore wolf skin but for a different reason and with no cultural similarity. Similar can be found later with Germanic people, where the most famous example would be Mozart - Wolfgang Amadeus, where Wolfgang means wolf's tracks, and he got the name to fear off disease and death since children died often at the time. Similar Wolf Totem and White Wolf traditions can be found among Mongols and Vikings as well as North American natives and probably many other nations. According to all ancient beliefs involving wolves and white wolves they can be boiled down to four things: wolves have incredible stamina, are powerful animals and once in a fight they don't back down, they are cooperative and lead by an alpha. One doesn't have to dig much to find historical figures compared to or named Wolf or White Wolf in various cultures. This being said, any use of a name White Wolf and comparison to wolf or wolves generally can not be stated as being plagiarism since it exists for centuries, even millennia. It is almost the same as with calling someone The Great, which some kings/emperors were called. Also, this does not mean the nick name White Wolf wasn't stolen from Elric, it means that the very nick name is not original in the first place. 2. "Do your research!" Okay, I did! "IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT 19TH CENTURY ROMANTICISM HAD AND HAS A CULTURAL INFLUENCE ON POLAND!" 3. No. No, it's not. Maybe Destiny is one of them, but Discrimination is a much bigger themes. Witchers being massive outcasts and, thought the series, we see that reflected in the way they are persevered and treated. Is there anything like that in Elric? Also, where exactly do we see the balance of order and chaos being played out?
@@TheTundraTerror 1. The white wolf as a nickname in popular fiction as far as I know stemmed from Michael Moorcock and Elric in the 1960s. IE way before Geralt. If it was used before that in another story by another author within contemporary fiction I honestly can’t find a source. Thanks Ron that history lesson. 2. It doesn’t matter. 3. Law and chaos and balance are central themes within the Witcher books and throughout the games each character or villain representing each alignment. Geralt is the balance here. Nilfgsrd and to an extent the wild hunt are the chaos and the law would be I suppose Radovid. Hell the symbols the chaos Star and law arrow are even used as their sigils. Another thing that you can go and throw a credit to moorcock. It’s more about discrimination? Ok. Elric as a melbibone is part of a gated and feared race and nobody like him and they fear him. Kind of like a group of Witcher and a Witcher I also know of. I’m done. I hate to break it to you AGAIN but sapkowski plagiarized anything you try and come up with was already done within in the Elric books and eternal champion series. Enjoy reading the Elric books. Have a good day.
Martin’s loaded with hidden homages to other authors. One of the houses in Westeros is named “House Jordayne of the Tor” with a lord named “Trebor” and the sigil of a golden quill. If that’s not a homage to anything in the Fantasy genre, I don’t know what is.
@@killianhackenschmidt4987 I had to think about that for a minute (I suck at the obvious), Robert (Trebor) Jordan (Jordayne) who wrote the Wheel of Time series and a few Conan novels his publisher was Tor. after solving that I can go to bed now. 'night.
Or House Peake of Starpike, named after Mervyn Peake and characters from the Gormenghast trilogy. My favourite is House Tully, who have lords named after Sesame Street characters (Lord Elmo Tully, Kermit Tully, Grover Tully, and Oscar Tully)
That’s a straight homage to Moorecock. In the TV show you have peasants call out Storm Bringer and the other sword that Elric uses. Nothing but love there. Sapkowski on the other hand….ignore it like the plague. It’s also a coincidence that Elric of Melnibone came out in Poland shortly before he started working on The Witcher.
Elric going from a great emperor to a sellsword is a very interesting concept. It's like the opposite of the 'Rags to Riches' trope that most games, books, and films constantly do.
As a writer myself there is a difference from being inspired by and out right ripping off entire plot arcs. Eargon is clearly inspired by star wars but it is different enough that it can stand on its own
@@Calypso694 the first book is okay but the rest just slow down completely. There is one that is literally nothing but the main character forging a sword which I give props to for being realistic but it completely halts the overall plot of the books
Not having read either of the books, doesn't the video tell us that the initial character creation is the only thing that MAY have been copied, with the stories explicitely being different?
@@Alexander_Kale Yeah that's pretty much what happened due to the way first witcher short story came to be. It was spur of the moment thing written for fun for a fantasy competition where I assume most other works were fanfics and parodies. It didn't even win the first place but people liked it and wanted more. It wasn't like Sapkowski had some sort of masterplan. He changed the story considerably from that of Elric and made it into his own thing with the later stories and books. I mean honestly, I've read both series and they have very different vibes.
@@LazarKG92 I would assume so. I have looked into this a tiny bit after stumbling upon this video, and I have read Elric described as an "undying elven sorceror Prince and later emperor with drug problems and a mystical sword that eats the souls of his enemies", and the titular Witcher as a " perpetually drunken, promiscuous murder hobo pest exterminator". Don't get me wrong, I have ordered the first volumes of both series by now, but I am slightly confused here.
Today's sci-fi tries to gather the mainstream audience, then gives what people already expects. There's exception, of course, but most of it is variations of what we already know. Yesterday's sci-fi... I won't say they didn't care about the popular success, but they were trying to create a new audience instead of keeping the old one. Leading to some visual innovation (for example H.R. Geiger for Alien. Moebius, with the Incal. Mezières for Valerian and Laureline, a very likely strong inspiration for Star Wars)
The thing I want to know is if Michael Moorcock got the name "The White Wolf" from the Robert E. Howard El Borak short story "Son of the White Wolf". Considering he conceived of Elric as an Anti-Conan it wouldn't surprise me if he came across that story and just liked the name
The name seems to haave been used in fiction and folklore before but Moorcock used it to describe an albino warrior and the name probably just came out of that.
White wolf is just one of many nicknames for Elric and really pretty common one for a warrior. Lone wolf, white wolf, great wolf, whatever descriptor + predator. White lion, White tiger, nothing too specific.
I barely used decoctions or potions on death march; there's no real point especially early game. You either win fights without getting hit, or you die from 2 scratches
In the novels, both Elric and Geralt rely on potions for enhanced combat ability. The games have arguably worked to minimize the similarities, to the point that there are lines like Geralt saying he'd be a veiny morsel to some monsters, but him being a hulking musled brute in that version, and Geralt getting more and more buff as each game came out. The dual wielding is also from the games, to make Geralt a little more distinctive.
@@TheBayzent and Gerald would be dead a hundred times over at minimum without the enhanced combat prowess of the potions he drinks. Same coin, opposite side.
Elric was intended to be anti-Tolkien. Unlike LOTR, the Elric saga, in part, was counter culture 1960s, anti-establishment and anti-British Empire building, according to Moorcock. And he happily acknowledged Elric the anti-hero followed in the wake of characters created by sword and sorcery pioneer Robert E. Howard (Conan the Barbarian) as well as Fritz Lieber's Fahfrd and the Gray Mouser series of books. Moorcock looked to both Lieber and Howard as his natural sword and sorcery antecedents..
In theory Elric was intended (and requested by his editor) to be an anti-Conan. good ol' Moorcock was kind of "anti"-tolkien back in the day because of various reasons both literally and political but he always said his "hate" against tolkien was overstated (even if he still baffled by some of his (tolkien's) "nuttier" fans and excessive prominence.) I'm a Moorcock fan myself and read quite a number of his more s&s pulpy books stories. I also partially read a few of more avant garde new wave stuff but for now i'm focusing on the books that, as far as i understand, lead to the end of the eternal champion affair. The end of Hawkmoon series and The Dragon In The Sword that is a mainly a Erekose story and was back in the eighties the "culmination" the cycle (i think it's no more).
@@FutureHH Well, from what I recall it was Moorcock's anti-British Empire (or 1960s-era anti-Establishment sentiment) that propelled his works of that time period. It ran counter to Tolkien's pro-Empire stance. It influenced a good deal of Elric of Melniboné, along with works of popular sci-fi and fantasy writers of that time. Yes, I too read most of Moorcock's eternal champion series. I think Elric and Erekose were my favs though I also like the Corum series too.
@@kamuelalee I agree. he was, is, more rebellious and unconventional than tolkien. ironically they share a trait. they were in their specific way anarchist.
"Did any of that sound familiar?" And here I am thinking yah Conan. Now I'm laughing when at the point in the vid where Elric was intended to be a anti Conan.
I read the first Elric book long before I even heard about the existance of Geralt. It was a fascinating tale, and I admit I was sold at the time. However, when I read about the witcher, I never even made a link between the two. In fact, I find both of these worlds so vastly different, that I cannot even begin to understand your claim. Just because the main protagenists have simularities, doesn't mean the are the same, that one writer stole the idea from the other. How many books are there about wizards, are they all stolen from Tolkien? How many science fiction heroes have been on the moon, are they all stolen from Wells? How many stories are there about kings and knights, are they all stolen from the King Arthur myth? No, ofcourse not. Some aren't even inspired by them. There is a lot of lore and myth out trere in the world. Yes sometimes people hear about something and give it another twist, I won't deny that. But claiming an entire universe has been stolen, just because the protagonists share simular traits like white hair and drinking potions? I mean, Geralt is no megaglomaniac like Elric. Geralt is a "nobody" basicly, Elric is an emperor. Geralts main goal is slaying monsters and stay out of politics if possible. Elric slays armies and conquers countries, he IS politics. There, just a couple of difference. If you really want to see simularities, you will find them even in the most differing subjects. but this always goes at the cost of objectivity. You need to look at the whole. Yes there are simularities, but nothing more than a couple of features doesn't mean it has all been stolen, at best it is inspired, but even that goes pretty far imo.
Main lore/plot element of both is called "conjunction of spheres", yeaaaaah. To not sound like a colossal prick, my point is, the main plot element is called the same thing and is essentially the same, that being interdimensional collision causing problems (if different ways yes but if it's called the same and very similar).
JoeyPsych To be honest with you a lot of authors steal. I just like the way the Witcher plays out. The savior of the world has been stored so many times. LOL
JoeyPsych It all depends on how you look at it. I believe they borrow the wizards so much is written about wizards it’s hard to step on other people stuff in their wizards
One thing on the emotions though is the fact that the Witcher’s being emotionless is more of a misconception and we see multiple Witcher show emotion in Khal Morren
@@kamiilmroz7428 There aren't a group of people who hate the Polish based in America. There are people of every country that don't like how Polish people they meet/observe/know are assholes. Pretty sure that's not a coordinated effort to hate them, just a strong coincidence.
Isn't Michael Moorcock know as the guy who claimed jrr Tolkien was glorifying war in the lord of the rings. Jrr Tolkien a man who fought in the battle of the somme.
@@Calypso694 He was also very butthurt about John Norman's Chronicles of Gor because it "disrespects women", and openly used the "I'm not for censorship but..." argument. He is the definition of a fantasy puritan and picks fights with anyone that doesn't promote his idea of what fantasy writers should promote. Andrzej Sapkowski is by far worse. He all but directly called video gaming community idiots at a convention once, because he was butthurt that The Witcher games were more popular than his novels and he made a bad choice to request to be paid in advance instead of by percentage of The Witcher sales. Then he sued CD Projekt using a polish law that was clearly not intended for situations such as his but was vague enough for him to use. Both of the writers are very smug, snobbish, and vain, but one of them is at least original.
Idk - I've heard a few arguments like this. I've read the first book of Witcher shorts, and they're really not at all like the Elric stories, which I've read many times - I've got the entire DAW collection, and I'm a huge fan - not as big a fan of Geralt. Geralt is more of a monster hunter, while Elric is a 'doomed' adventurer who ends up getting swept up in various scenarios for various reasons - not necessarily to hunt monsters, but more bc of the war of Chaos and Law. All literature is built upon the literature that came before, right? Someone said this, I'm not sure who. How many versions of Frankenstein or Dracula have we gotten? How many Cthulhu horror stories have we seen? Did you know there's a short story about a world where mutants exist, and the government is trying to hunt them down and exterminate them? It's a Philip K Dick short called The Golden Man - released in the 1950s, nearly a decade before Stan Lee and Jack Kirby released Uncanny X-Men. It's a really great short story - you can find it for free online, but I first read it in the Philip K Dick Reader, which has most of his most popular works. Now, do I think Lee and Kirby stole from Dick's Golden Man? Idk - maybe one of them read the story and was inspired - the mutants in the Golden Man don't wear costumes or anything, but the themes are VERY similar to the X-books - the government is afraid that mutants will take over and become the predominant species on Earth. It's so similar it's funny, but I think the stories that spawned from those early comics are truly their own thing. I think it's okay to retell stories in your own way - Moorcock did a lot of 'borrowing' with many of his stories, often just retelling or reworking old myths. Stephen King's Salem's Lot is just a retelling of Dracula in small-town Maine (his short Jerusalem's Lot, a prequel to Salem's Lot, is even told in epistolary form like Dracula, but is more of a Lovecraftian story than a simple vampire story - worth the read also). I just think there are a myriad of tropes in whatever genre you choose to work in, be it sci-fi, fantasy, horror, etc., and all those tropes are up for grabs. There's a fine line between 'inspired by' and 'plagiarized'. I have no doubt that both Sapkowski and CD Project Red were very aware of Elric of Melnibone, but I think it tows the line fairly well - if you've read the stories in The Last Wish, it really doesn't feel like the heavy-metal-fantasy-type stories Moorcock wrote of Elric, imo - I also think the Moorcock stories are far superior, but it doesn't have its own popular gaming franchise, so I guess it's not as 'cool' to like. Either way, good video. Any chance I get to hear someone talk about Elric is worth it
So youu didnt read all the Witcher books then? The whole point here is that Sapkowski denies at every turn the similarities and tries to pass off his ideas as purely original. Not that he was inspired by it. And by the way the threshold for plagiarism is as small as a similar name and appearance.
Geralt isn't exceptional among Withers in that he has emotions. It's explained later that Witchers have emotions, just don't show them and help spread the myth that they don't - so people won't try to persuade them to work for free.
@@ajuc005 You know how i know you have neither read the books of either series? Because of your comments. Its undeniable dude, and im a witcher fan. Denying does no one favors.
@@jonathansoko1085 You're not only not a Witcher fan, you have not read any of the books. That's the only way you can so arrogantly make a false claim about them being "copy-pasted". Answer me this, then: in the Witcher series, what are the equivalents to Melnibone, Xiombarg, Cymoril, Yrkoon, Mournblade and Arioch? How does Geralt obtain the Black Blade, and what is it's actual name in the series? What deity does Geralt use in his iconic battlecry? Which deities or demons does Geralt summon during the course of the series? On the converse side, when does Elric invoke the Law of Surprise and who is his Child of Destiny, and what is the name of the knight Elric frees from the Hedgehog Curse?
Drizzt is in the same type of character but he avoids being effectively the same character by either subverting or avoiding the elements that are copied wholesale from Elric to Geralt.
@Bruno Beautiful if I remember correctly, Wulfgar was supposed to be the main character. So many people wanted to know more about Drizzt after the Crystal Shard novel, that he became the main character, and Wulfgar became a side character.
There are tons of Elric wannabes in fantasy: -Arthas from Warcraft -Kain from Legacy of Kain -Alucard from Castlevania -Griffith from Berserk -Prince Nuada from Hellboy 2 -Nekron from Fire and Ice It's just that Sapkowski's Geralt is so blatant it's hard not to notice.
There is inspiration/homages like Eye of the World (but that breaks off half way by the end and later books) being an intentional Tolkien-esque book than there is blatant plagiarism like Sword of Shannara (which breaks up by the end of the third and last entry of the original trilogy).
The guy never expected to be caught, plain and simple, back then nobody thought the bloc would fall and he was just gonna be a local known author. As a translator, he had access to it, nobody else in the area would ever read it due to reasons, and the cover up for it would be at hand.
While I agree with some points, I have to disagree with the point that themes are the same. They are quite the opposite in my opinion. Witcher is a careful deconstruction of Aurthorian myths, legends and slavic fairytales. Elric is an example of one of the first grimdark-ish fantasies but it very much plays into what are now considered tropes (but quite original for it's time).
@Timothy Dexter Samaritan? Lmfao Arthurian with a lot of it's tropes is based off the Irish, and in turn the broader Celtic mythologies and the way of life. Excalibur is the Sword of Destiny mentioned frequently in the legends of Lú, the round table and Arthur himself being based off the Irish Fionn too. Fuck off with that 'point blank Samaritan myth', study the Irish mythos and you'll see that's a load of crap.
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 completely agreed, I never would have made the link between the two. One is dark, a "punch in the face", the other is humorous and about the importance of family. But, the philosophical discussions about Chaos and Law in the witcher is a bit on the nose
@MrNahual2099 only people that use terms like "Fanboy" are emotionally invested in fictional world's enough to act like a little prick on the internet...
Could you link some interview where Sapkowski denies being influenced by Elric of Melniboné. I tried to do some digging by myself but I couldn't find anything about it.
, heres an interview he mentions Elric. He also brought it up in Manuscript found in a dragons cave, an essay i beleive on writing. sugarpulp.it/en/26893/ Theres too many things there to be purley inluence. And like i said or Razor or others, if this was any other character in fiction before the contextual time, the lawyers would be out and about.
@@Calypso694 Based on your video, I thought you were suggesting that Sapkowski denied drawing inspiration from Elric of Melniboné, but in this interview he states that he "was utterly enchanted" by various authors, including Moorcock. I was hoping for some explicit denial from his side but I guess I can agree that he could give Moorcock more credit than just mentioning him in some interview. To make the discussion more interesting, I'll try to be a devil's advocate. Perhaps Sapkowski didn't borrow more from Elric than other sources. For example, Sapkowski in another interview he stated that he relied heavily on Roman Zmorski's "Strzyga". During my brief research, I even came across a Polish article accusing him of plagiarizing this short story. Maybe in his eyes, it doesn't make sense to single out Moorcock's work while he drew just as much (or even more) from other authors. Sapkowski's reluctance to single out Moorcock's work, then, could be seen as a refusal to oversimplify the intricate web of influences that inform his writing. But to sum up, "The Witcher" seems to me more like an amalgamation of various influences and inspirations than a unique creation as Sapkowski prefers to emphasise. (Or maybe a mashup of so many things is what it makes it unique? 😄)
@@zakrz oh i agree Witcher is a bunch of things all rolled in to one. No doubting that. All the early stories(the best imo) are The Witcher meets Grimm. Its when you really start to look at the finer details and plot points and even conclusions that Elric shows up and is under the serface. Some would call it Subversive Plagiarism or something. Clever.
Well, I take the liberty to diagree with you. First of all, you seem to mix the books and the games, which I think is a serious mistake. The books were created by Andrzej Sapkowski, who did not take part in CD Projekt's "Witcher's" production. On the contrary, he distanced from it clearly saying that his story is in the books and the games are complete non-canon. There are details that may be bringing the witcher closer to Elric, but they were introduced in the games, so it is not fair to accuse Sapkowski of plagiarism, because of those. Below I refer to the particular parts of your video, I hope this will make you look a bit differently on some things. 1. Both Elric and Geralt experienced trials and ...that's where any similarity ends: at the word 'trials' as their nature was quite different in either case. Elric's trials were a kind of educational journey, definitely of mental nature, while Geralt's were a magical-herbal treatment, a procedure that altered his body: gave him super-keen senses, ability to control emotions (it did not removed them!) and his body (e.g. slower their pulse), and also made him sterile. We have mind's journey vs magical procedure on the body - not quite the same. 2. As for emotions Moorcock and Sapkowski depict completely opposite situations. In Elric's reality, deprived of feelings, he is an emotional exception. Geralt can suppress expressing emotions, which adds to other people seeing him as a cold-blooded killing machine, but he has feeling just like anybody else in his world. Was he exceptional among witchers? - absolutely NOT. It is said in the novels that witchers were perceived as emotionless, because they could hide their emotions, and they did so, which is not surprising considering people's attitude towards them. But Vesemir was Geralt's father figure, Coen befriended Ciri and often played with her in Kaer Morhen, Lambert did not like Triss - feelings, feelings all the way. And for Geralt's moody and brooding nature - this argument for plagiarism is really far-fetched. He is a typical romanticistic character: an individualist, outsider, unaccepted by the society, who fights for the good, even when it seems futile, who longs for a better but unreal world, whose love to Yen brings a lot of pain and is full of obstacles, who dwells in deliberations about his feelings and emotions and the surrounding world. If you understand how enormous influence the 19th century romanticism had on Polish culture (novels, poetry, movies, stage dramas etc.), and still has, you could see that Sapkowski's inspirations were rather there than in Moorcocks's novels. Also, in some aspects of his characteristics Geralt also resembles Raymond Chandler's private eye Philip Marlowe. 3. Elric was born an albino, Geralt got his white hair during magical treatments at young age that he underwent after passing the Trial of the Grasses. But Geralt WAS NOT an albino. Yes, some people may have called him that, but that's because of his white hair - rather unusual for someone of his age - and pale (not Elric's purely white) skin. In "The Witcher" (Sapkowski's short story) his face becomes chalk-white after he drinks a potion, which means it wasn't white before that. Also, because of the treatments he would never blush. Elric's eyes were crimson red, while Geralt's were cat-like and dark, as Sapkowski describes them. He does not mention the exact color, but it is suggested in the novels that different potions can give Geralt's eyes different colors. Elric is very tall and slender, Geralt is tall with fit, but not overmuscled body. So, we have a white-haired skinny albino with milky-white skin and red eyes vs white-haired pale guy with fit body and dark, cat-like eyes - they are similar only thanks to white hair, but visually not the same person at all. 4. Potions are quite common in fantasy, aren't they? Just like magic. It is hard to acknowledge the use of potions as plagiarism, especially that their function is quite different. Elric takes them to stay alive, he is on constant potions therapy, one could say. For Geralt they are a weapon of choice, enhancing his senses and motility when it is required for the fight. Also: different potions for different enemy and fight conditions. Treatment vs weapon of choice - quite opposite. One more thing: yes, you need potions for Geralt to stay alive IN THE GAME, but that is the in-game mechanics, not Sapkowski's writing. 5. Moorcock's rune sword, Stormbringer, is a very important element of the story, even a supporting character to the main hero, Elric. It is sentient, it communicates with its wielder, it has magical power of enhancing Elric's abilities and it feeds on the souls of the enemies. Geralt's rune sword was ...a sword with runes. Called "silver sword" it was actually a steel one, but plated with silver, for which some monsters were vulnerable. There were no magic, at least in the books, it was a very fine weapon crafted by dwarven armorers with a runic inscription. But the main difference to Elric's sword is that it is merely a witcher's tool for the job, a unique one, but it is not anything besides that. It is more like Tolkien's swords e.g. Andúril than Moorcock's Stormbringer and in "The Lord of the Rings" I would see the inspiration for Sapkowski, as well as for countless other fantasy authors. 6. Dark-haired sorceress being a proof for plagiarism? Seriously? Do you really think that Sapkowski said to himself: Elric has black haired fiancee, so Geralt needs one too. ;-) First of all, black and white are kind of natural association. :-) Second: how many hair colors are there, four (blonde, brown, red, black... OK, white too)? Third: although Yen was his true love, he was also in relationships with women of other hair colors e.g. red (Triss) or blonde (Essi). I think this is a coincidental similarity, nothing more. And the fact that she is a sorceress? Yes, it is a bit cliche, but would it be that good for the story if she was, I don't know, a needlewoman?
Sad Gargoyle I have read all of the Witcher books and played all the games. I have read none of the Elric books. Technically I don’t know what I’m talking about LOL. I just really like the Witcher series. I probably would’ve not of liked Elric series. I’m not saying it’s bad. I just like wicher version a lot.
I agree with you on most parts but the impression I get when I read The Witcher novels is that the emotionless Witcher thing is an unfounded stereotype. Geralt is one of the more empathetic and articulate than most royalty. He experiences loneliness and despair to the point he laments to his horse how lucky he is not to feel emotion or he'd be wrecked right about now lol.
Sad Gargoyle your comment is the best and realest comment in the whole comment section. Some of these dumbasses can't think for shit. Hell I didn't know who the other guy was til I seen people trash talking geralt. Honestly whatever the other guy name is story isn't as fascinating as the Witcher. You made some great points that others will not like.
You forgot the part where Sapkowski worked for a translation publishing company in Poland and was one of the first to get his hands on Elric of Melnibone in his country and translate it. Remind you. He read Elric and translated the books to Polish well before he started writing The Witcher. He actually started his first draft shortly after finishing Elric. But that’s just a coincidence! Don’t you find it odd how Sapkowski was clearly so close to Elric and doesn’t mention it at all?
You make some good points overall but I disagree that it's plagiarism. Sure, Elric was a big inspiration but a lot of the features you mentioned are fairly generic. Falling in love with a strong-willed, raven-haired woman sorceress? That's not specific to Elric, that's just male fantasy. See Aragorn in LOTR. Taking potions for speed and strength? That's a fantasy staple. Having a runed sword? The witchers' swords aren't powerful because they have runes, it's because they're silver and super sharp. I can't remember in the books if they even had runes, but if they did they din't play a major part in their power at all. Being albino, and a mercenary, and nonchalant? Sure that's taken from Elric. But Geralt 100% has emotions, that's what makes the stories to good imho. It's about him as a person. Also, dealing with politics and philosophy in their weird way, that's also pretty generic to any good writing. Responding to your other points in the comments: - The Witcher universe doesn't really have a multiverse, but rather different times and spaces. - Having a comedic sidekick is also a staple fantasy trope, see Don Quixote. - Conjunction ideas are also pretty commonly used, off the top of my head I can think of it being used in the Thor 2 movie (no further comment on whether that''s good or bad). - Copying the name White Wolf - I'll give you that. So did GRRM though. So yes, there are a LOT of similarities and Sapkowski 110% pulled a lot from Elric. But I don't think it reaches the threshold of plagiarism. A lot of the similarities are classic fantasy tropes. Either way, great video and well done.
I think it wouldn't be such a big controversy if Sapkowski would actually acknowledge Moorcock and the Elric Saga as an inspiration. Instead, he refuses to and gets pissed at anyone who makes a comparison, insisting that Moorcock had no effect on the Witcher series. Which is a little hard to swallow, especially since The Last Wish was first published at the same time that Sapkowski was translating Elric into Polish.
@@upperlander9282 Having read some Moorcock, I'm not convinced it did noticeably influence Sapkowski. Sure, every book Sapkowski read probably influenced him subliminally, but I certainly don't think he ripped off Moorcock or intentionally copied parts. I don't think he was any more influenced by Moorcock than Tolkein. However, I've only read a little bit of Moorcock, I could be wrong. Either way, I enjoyed both authors a bunch and I'm grateful this debate showed me new material : )
I’d say it’s a loving parody of not only Elric but fantasy in general. The entire thing about the series is that it takes classic fantasy tropes (if not straight up fairy tales) and gives them the baggage of our world like systemic racism, how the wealthy use prejudice to further their goals, the horrors of colonialism, and the trauma of abduction. Geralt is basically a working class bloke parody of Elric as while Elric was this scholarly prince that just had empathy unlike the rest of his people, geralt has to learn to break the cycle of abuse the Witcher industry is built on by raising ciri without the horrific experiments and general bs he and his brothers in arms were put through and embracing the emotions they were always forced to suppress. He also realizes that neutrality or “both sides bad” is a bunch of holier than though bullshit, especially when it comes to people like Renfri or the Scoi’atelle who are simply striking back at a society that has thoroughly fucked them over
The problem I have with people complaining that the Witcher is ripping off of Elric is that we're pretending Elric itself was a completely original work. It's not. It drew from ideas and stories that existed before it just like the Witcher did. So... how can we condemn the Witcher and NOT Elric?
@@R1ck_Ryder I wonder if you walk around in your daily life talking shit to random people who could beat your ass over something as infintile as a book series?
Correct. Stormbringer has actual dialogue at the end. However throughout the series Elric frequently talks to stormbringer and it murmurs and moans back in response and other times. I consider that a talking sword.
@@dragoneye6229 What's with the hostility lol. Wouldn't it be smarter to attack the radical side of the fanbase rather than the whole country? Us younger generations really aren't any different from other countries (I do admit that the boomers are insufferable but that goes for pretty much everywhere)
12:00 mark massive volume spike that's a bit out of sync with the rest of the video. might want to tone it down a little bit. Shit scared the hell out of me.
You weren't fucking around. It's almost 1am, I'm watching on my phone, and was terrified that I might have woken up my 2 year old in the next room. Listen to this OP, tone that shit down!
This thing about emotions and Witchers is a lie they used to protect themselves at first, but then was used as a weapon of prejudice against them, the other witchers are also emotional. Great Vid btw, still watching.
I was gonna mention warhammer but it seems you included that as well. The dark elves are basically carbon copies of the melniboneans. and the whole chaos gods thing.
19:01 is false. Witchers have emotions, Geralt isn’t the exception. It’s just a rumor spread by humans afraid of Witchers that they have no feelings. Also I don’t quite understand your potions point. Lots of fantasy characters use potions, as you state in your piece Geralt and Elric use them differently as well. So that’s a really weird comparison to make
These guys really want to uncover something that isn't all there. From what I can gather any true similairities between the characters are the Albinism (and derived nickname) and sword and sorcery setting. Other are purely incidental or may be inspired at best. Main characterisitic of Elric as a book protagonist - Stormbringer- is completely missing from Witcher in any equivalent that isn't already transformative. While exploring the same themes as Elric books, from what I gather, Wicher has very different answers to those themes than Elric and Sapkowski's stories often take the piss from western stories and fairytales: Elfs in Witcher are arrogant junkies as opposed to high elfs of Tolkien, Curse of the Black Sun is there to satirise Snow White and other princesses, The Striga story is grimdark retelling of Sleeping Beauty... etc. It would not be above Sapkowski to basicaly parody Elric stories too. Not very original I know but not a plagiarism either. The most telling sign is that owners of Elric's copyright never filed law suit against either CD Project Red or Sapkowski himself which is something that would definetly happen if the case was as clear cut as these Elric fanboys seem to wish it to be.
Franky Dostál I def agree, a lot of these people are aggressively pushing a narrative that just isn’t true. Also from what I’ve heard from online discourse. Morcock did try to sue Sapkowski for plagiarism after being pressured to by his peers, but the courts ruled that there were way too many differences for it to be plagiarism
@@doctorace4308 Ok, lol, that would kinda make the accusations not only badly grounded but also hilariously pointless... It's pretty apparent these guys don't know or don't care about copyright law in the slightest tho. I reckon they want to establish some dude-bro informal writers code of conduct through this whining...? It's seems really stupid imo. On a sidenote, ironicaly all the pro-Elric videos I watched seemed to copy one another :D
@@frankydostal4758 even the albinism is stretched 'cause Geralt has normal 'pink' skin, yet his hair are white due to Grass Trial and he sometimes gets pale white when using elixirs, because they're overriding his body. Same as you would party with no sleep for 2 days. Besides Sapkowski himself says that he was inspired by Elric, but all this arguments like 'they both love black haired sorceress' are straight dumb. I don't like AS as a person, but if we go this way EVERY book is a ripp of of Illiad and myths. And Sapkowski used EVERY fairy tale/myth/folk story/D&D/fantasy books he could come up. For me Witcher aka demon hunter is more a Seven son of a seventh son story (Bulgarian/Hungarian folk story of a demon hunter). Wonder how many similar stories we would find if we dig deeper, unless this discussion is like oh GoT is a ripp of Tolkien;p
So aside from the differences between elric and Geralt, what else about these series are the similar? I mean aside from the typical fantasy tropes what else did Andrzej inspire/steal his world from?
18:58 I don't think Geralt was presented as a exception, the witchers in the school of the Wolf were perfectly able to show sympathies. It seemed more like a rumeur peoples believed in. Part of me don't want to believe in what you said but the similiraties are far too great and numerous to be ignored. It won't stop me from enjoying the Witcher though as there is still some things that are proper to the universe despite the plagiarism. Ironically, that actually make me want to read Elric.
I don't think it would even be an issue if the author just said "Yeah I totally ripped off Elric but tried to put my own spin it on it by including polish mythology."
I have only the read the first Elric story and the first Witcher book, so I'm wondering if someone can tell me what the last ruler of a decaying empire and a genetically modified monster hunter have in common beyond their hair colour.
Because the Elric canon is a mess, and the first book is actually like the fifth in the timeline. The first published Elric story had him being a mercenary.
Is it bad that I really couldn't care less if Geralt was ripped off from Elric? I mean this isn't exactly a singular phenomenon. Pretty much every fictional character that is popular is most likely highly influenced by a previous character. There's still enough differences between The two series for me to enjoy them both. Sapkowski's novels feel less like traditional fantasy and almost like a dark parody of slavic folktales and fairytales. The Witcher has more in common with Shrek than Lord of the Rings. Where as Moorcock's books feel like a much more like traditional epic fantasy. This discrepancy in storytelling is enough of a difference eventhough the characters are similar.
"The Witcher has more in common with Shrek than Lord of the Rings" I absolutely support this claim. I love how the first two parts of the Witcher are basically classic fairytales with a dark twist.
@@dreamscapecreations4863 agreed: the differences in the story and side characters is so immense that I would never have made the connection between the two. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the video, but saying "the stories naturally veer in different directions" is a complete understatement.
lynxi life huh? No punisher premiered way later. Batman is a rip off of the shadow through and through. Same villains here and there. Same backstory almost T for T. Only difference is shadow kills. Batman killed early on before DC changed that up. Punisher takes some stuff from shadow also.
You're not wrong. The makers of Star Wars sued the makers of Battlestar Galactica in the 70's, but claim total ignorance of Dune and swear that some gobbledygook about Joseph Campbell totally justifies everything. Games Workshop sues people all the time, but apparently see nothing wrong with cribbing from everyone and everything. It's hard to read Michael Moorcock's books about eternal champions of Law and Chaos without seeing that play out in 'Nemesis the Warlock' and 'Warhammer 40k.' D&D got into some legal trouble with the Tolkien estate over words like "Hobbit", but apparently "Halfling" is fair game. The list goes on and on. Also, fans of every franchise will go to war over stuff like this. The older I get, the more I see how certain creative figureheads skirt legality (and good taste) to secure copyrights and merchandising claims.
You exclusively focused on the similarities, and disregarded all the differences, and many of these similarities are just general fantasy tropes (many of which Elric created, fair enough.) The witcher has several other sources too, the overall plot has absolutely nothing to do with Elric, character development is completely different, and so on. No one creates in a vacuum, did Tolkien plagiarise the Eddas, he literally copied and pasted their WHOLE list of dwarf names... Anyhow, if you dig any author's, ANY author's, influences, there will be a point in which they will seem unoriginal, this may be disapointing, but it only means that writing is actual work, you are actually building something out of stuff, it is time we ditch all that romantic exagerations of artistic developments. And yes, some pieces are more original than others, and there is a point in which one crosses into plagiarism, I just think your analysis was superficial.
Agreed. I’ve said in other comments I’d do this over again in more detail and longer but Razorfist best me to it (link in the comments) and does a better job. And if Tolkien copies dwarf names yeah he did plagiarise. Did he give his source? Good. Check out the other video of you haven’t already.
@@Calypso694 Aesthetics is not plot, you got into that only in the most superficial way. Obviously Elric influenced the Witcher just like like it itself was triggered by LOTR and heavily inspired by Conan (or is Elric plagiarism from Conan because he "gets laid a lot and is cynical mercenary that, among other things, dabbels into politics and kills monsters?) The plotline of the two are nothing alike, the plot function of several of these "similarities" are, as I said, either general fantasy tropes (magical weapons, seriously?) or directly inspired but heavily twisted, like the potions. The whole of the political thing is also quite shallow, one is criticising one thing, the other is criticising the opposite, are they copying from each other, no. Some of Tolkien's sources are spurious and he would deny them, others are open, straight out copying names is a heavy blow on one renowed for linguistic originality (and consistency for that matter, because Gandalf is in that dwarf list of names and, well...) And you won't find anywhere any quote saying "oh yeah, I just took the Eddas' list and copied it whole" even though norse mythology in general was acknowledged to be one of his main sources. Several of the characteristics you pointed out of Elric are also in the Kalevala, the author recognized it, as he did several other pieces of inspiration, including the aesthetics of his character. In the Republic, we have a story about a magic ring that grants invisibility, corrupts the owner and is a direct symbol for power, Tolkien did not acknowledged that directly, as far as I know.
All to say, considering the major differences in plot and the wide variety of sources the Witcher draws from, and the nature of creative writing, it is my opinion that it is not plagirism per se, the isnpiration is there, but in between plagiarism and hoenst inspiration there are several shades of pastiche. It is easy to attack a writer, Conan is just pastiche out of Lovecraft and Lovecraft is just pastiche out of Dunsany, see? I did it too.
All in all, I don't mean to antagonize at all, it is an amazing topic and I appreciate the video, but I will have to heavily protest the hard sentence of plagiarism, the influence IS there, and the author would do well to acknowledge it, but plagiarising is pretty serious and such accusations don't do any good.
Euclides Ribeiro Geralt doesn’t even have a magic sword. The silver sword is a game only thing, in the books at one point he’s given a sword by another character, not a magical sword mind you, just an expensive, well crafted sword which he uses for the rest of the books.
@@Calypso694 thanks! I'll also note that sadly it seems in a literary perspective Elrics novels are really expensive due to the collectors market. I'd know considering I've been trying to get them for a couple of years now and even try to scour used book stores in hopes to find them. The comics are good adaptations surely but as far as direct sources its.. just hard and can hurt it's publicity as now moorecocks writings are considered more occult
Virus Dot EXE oh yeah if you want the original prints pretty pricey! But if you check amazon/eBay for any prints no matter the version I’ve found them pretty cheap.
The way I see this, as a fan of both stories: Sapkowski definitely took HEAVY inspiration, that is absolutely without a question. Some of the similarities are so striking that it's a bit comedic - white wolf, Cymoril/Cirilla, conjunction of the spheres + all the stuff the video mentioned like potions etc. I'm pretty sure that Sapkowski is denying it because Moorcock wanted to sue him in the past and Sap's lawyers told him to keep his mouth shut about his inspiration, just to be sure. Despite that, though, I don't see the Witcher as plagiarism, as it simply does too many things too differently and does a few things that Elric really doesn't (development of characters other than the protagonist, its emphasis on world building and politics, very clever use of fantasy races like dwarves and elves, a very down to earth and naturalist way of describing war and violence and I could go on). I personally have no problem with the fact that one awesome piece of fantasy caused the creation of another. It's the way how many awesome pieces of literature were created throughout history (look no further than Shakespeare and most of his plays). TLDR: Witcher is obviously heavily inspired by Elric but IMO the stories are too different to be considered plagiarism.
How to make an easy potions to the fives Guild only uses potions when he's getting ready for a battle with a monster. White wolf is an extremely generic badass nickname.
@Only Death it's not plagiarism since it's a generic baddass fantasy name like the Black Swordsman. Does that mean is the author of Berserk can sue is the author of SAO because he also gave his character the nickname of 'The Black Swordsman that is the main character in a fantasy world'?
That potion comparison was weird. Elric needs potions to stay functional and Gerard IN GAMES quaffs potions during battles to stay alive simply because health potions are a common video game mechanic. Used in countles games, Zelda, about every CRGB game etc. In Witcher I rather try to block, parry and counter instead. In books Gerard uses small vial concoctions when he is knowingly preparing to fight a monster or some other encounter where he can temporarily enhance his night vision or some other ability that is useful with that environment or monster. So here the comparison was made between a book Elric and video game Gerard which was contrived. Video game Gerard can also eat during fights to give him health, if I remember correctly. That would be a pretty unique ability to almost any character outside video games even in fiction.
@@Calypso694 I actually learned to like it of become a better at it. Constantly moving, jumping and parrying around the enemies. But yeah, for most parts your observations were accurate. I actually did not remember Elrics love interest, but I also have not read all the novels. They were hard to come by in my local library. I should start to hunt them out for my own collection, maybe there is a good quality audio books available.
Tube Torpedo for the Elric books I’ve only found the first two on an app that connects your libraries called Overdrive. All the Witcher books are in audio. Check out Razorfists video (unless you are coming from there) he goes over everything in way more detail.
@@Calypso694 I come from Razorfist, but I watched your first. Probably check his video tomorrow. I have all the Witcher books that has been published in English as physical copies, but I have only read all the Elric books I could find at the time about ~15-20 years ago, albeit a one-two-few times. But it's still a long time ago. I have enjoyed both of those wolves. In the end the atmosphere is quite different, Elric is bit more high fantasy setting. But not surprisingly they are much harder to come by (e.g. Audible - nothing) especially when e.g. all the neat and handy collections that would have various novels/stories in a same book, seemed to be somewhat random collections when I last looked the options. And it's not that there has been lack of books to read in the meantime. But this was a good reminder to make a new dive to see what I can find. I'd love to read it again and like I said, I have only read some of the stories. The so called ending I'm familiar with but I think I've missed many of the first novels. But thanks for the advice.
@@tubetorpedo You have yet to address that you are incorrect in regards to Elric needing the potions to function. The only time Elric needed potions to function were from prequels written after his initial debut and prior to him obtaining Stormbringer after which he has no need to rely on potions for survival.
Dude look up the words ”Archetype”, ”trope” and ”cliché” in the dictionary. Being derivative and plagiarising isn’t the same thing 🤦♂️ Knowing about influence is the basics of any litterature analysis. If you seriously think Elric was the first gruff, bitter, sarcastic, worn, travelling, potion-using sellsword with a runic sword then you are wrong. It’s an archetype and one that clearly started with Aragorn in lord of the rings. If anything Geralt has more in common with Drizzt Du’orden and Conan the barbarian than he has with Elric. Using the same archetype but then writing a different story isn’t plagiarising if it was every author post the 1800-hundreds would be guilty. And before anybody calls me a witcher fanboy, then no I think the series is pretty meh, same as Elric.
I’m going to assume you skimmed through this video or didn’t even watch it where I clearly point out jarring similarities or “inspirations” as others call it. You might not like either character but if you do your own research you might come out with the same conclusion.
The Necrolibriatas Watched the video and what I’m saying is that those vague similarities are no more similair than similarities between other characters of the same archetype 😑 It’ almost like you just skimmed the comment rather than doing actual research and coming up with an actual answer? You really ought to look up what plagiarising actually is before making a video like this 👌🏻 Because eventhough you define it at the beginning you still don’t seem to understand what it means.
2 smiley studios sure thing. If I don’t know what it means(even though I clearly defined its multiple uses in the start) then I guess I’m wrong and all the oddly vague yet so similar similarities are just tropes use throughout fiction. Yup. I mean after all, it’s just a character.
@Only Death it's a video of a guy screaming about surface-level similarities and blowing them out of proportion. Elric and Dale would have no similarities what's the weather besides surface-level ones. Elric is white as a Crayola crayon while garelt only gets that way when he takes potions when he's about to fight a monster.
Not really. The discussion is that "is the witcher plagiarism". Moorcock outright admits he lifted things directly while Sapkowski denies it even though the overwhelmingly damming evidence clearly says otherwise. If you are gonna steal, steal from the best. But at least admit that you did. The REAL issue I have and that loads of others have, is that sapkowski stole someone's work and built a media empire off of it. If anyone else had done it people would be up in arms demanding justice that they give whoever Credit and a share of all the money they'd gained.
@@aarondubourg3706 the first witcher short story "The Witcher" that spakowski wrote and published was in 1986. The first polish edition of Elric was in 1985. And contraband was easy enough to smuggle. CDPR started the company from smuggled in US games and pirating others to translate to then sell funny enough.
@@mariobadia4553 Aye, before you acount for themes, world building elements, plot points, magic systems, names and iconography. ....Oh wait. Here's the thing; some of the most popular characters in history have been blatent works of plagerism. Batman and the Shadow for example. But that doesn't stop them from being works in their own right that over time have evolved into something distinct. The problem here is that the author of the Witcher (like the creators of the golden age Batman) has refused to grow a pair a admit that Geralt is in essence a Polish version of Elric.
@@Mister-Thirteen which Elric took from many many other stories. Elric didn't come up with any of this bullshit. Bucky in Infinity War has the name 'white wolf' and so many many many many many many many many many many Characters. Should Marvel and DC be sued for using the Multiverse concept because Elric did it? besides the guy who writes the elric books is a fucking left-wing nut that pretty much insulted JRR Tolkien by saying Lord of the Rings glorified war( the same man that served in World War 1).
Well this happen all the time hell Jon snow is called the white wolf is and isn't Aragorn a plagiarism of King Arthur so ya similarities between characters are common
This is ridiculous. Michael Moorcock didn't even think there was plagiarism until fans started claiming it was and even though Moorcock was aware of Andrej's Witcher series, he didn't call plagiarism until said fans convinced him there was plagiarism.
never in my life i've encountered a rune sword slavic myth probably the only sword i know is kladenets, but's not a proper name it just means that the sword is looted from aтн treasure event and it's really good at what it does it's basically used as "and then our hero have found a macguffin sword" it's used as "you guys know how these things go hero needs a weapon so he just found a magic weapon doesn't matter now back to the story" runes are a norse thing
You do know that they shared borders, fought each other and Poland exist because of the German peoples? To stop the Germanic invasions the first Ruler of Poland Mieszko the 1st converted to Christianity and united the local tribes, his daughter became a Norse Queen, his son the first King of Poland (who where supposed to Have a magical Sword (in the link bellow). en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szczerbiec I am not 100% sure this plagiarism theory Sticks. I am gonna finish the video as I have not watched much of it yet.
It's funny how Sapkowski has never been fond of the games and tv show, he says they are not true representations of his creation I guess he wanted them to plagiarise his work more directly lol
heard he liked the games first he started to hate them, when they got more popular he even sued CD-Project Red cause they made Gwent wonder when he gets mad on the Netflixshow
@@Calypso694i always thought they were on bad terms, he and hawkwind. and i find fun that he went from a space psychedelic prog rock band to "arguably" an hard 'n'heavy band that greatly inspired both speed and thrash metal (even if motorhead didn't consider themselves metal)
I didn’t become wise to the Witcher until the first game(being American and all) and I first heard about moorcock way back in like 02? But didn’t read the series until 2014/2015. Funny enough my relation to Elric comes from all of the other things inspired by him like legacy of kain and DND stuff etc.
@@Calypso694 Legacy of kain is a great game. That imo paid homage to Moorcrock. Witcher is just blatant thievery. I'm glad people like you are shedding light on this. I swear if I gotta correct onw more 19 yo fanboy Imma cry haha You got a sub my friend keep it up
My favorite part is that The Witcher 3 is the most loved version of The Witcher which is funny since he's the most removed version prior to the TV show.
Is anyone gonna point out that Guts has just as much in common with Elric? Or that you could read Drizzt as a subversion of Elric? Sailor On The Seas of Fate deals with alot interdimensional travel, heroes from other worlds and time...Is the Wheel of Time also a rip off of Elric? Maybe fantasy as a genre just touches on similar themes and tropes, like ALL genres do.
True. All fantasy and every genre touches and always will scrape against others. But the difference here is that 1. None of those “tropes or archetypes” were popular and I mean really popular until Moorcock and Elric and the Eternal Champions . 2. You gotta start somewhere and where is that some? With Michael moorcock. Big difference between being a trope of a character type and actually being the same exact character ie Geralt is Elric. Shit just look at the clusterfuck that is Cyberpunk. If the Philip K Dick estate and Gibson wanted to sue everyone for plagiarism they could and they’d have the right to. Gibsons lawyers wanted him to sue Shadowrun but he said “nah”
So what. The Targaryens from GoT are much much much more ripped off from the Melniboneans, right down to the white hair, big black sword, and royals ruling the world from the backs of dragons. Rhaegar Targaryen is Elric-Lite.
Difference is George RR Martin and Michael Moorcock are buddies, and GRRM has done more to market Elric in his interviews than Moorcock himself. Whatever the Polish guys name is has done quite the opposite, despite Witcher being a literal work of plagiarism.
@@finismalorum9746 - Yes, you're correct. Still, the oc is absolutely right. The Valyrians / Targs ARE nothing but a case of blatant plagiarism. Who cares if Martin has thrown Moorcock some bones?! Effing nobody.
@@saymyname2417 They most certainly used The Melnibonéans as inspiration, but as I said before they are friends and George RR Martin has always told people where the inspiration comes from. The Pole has never named Moorecock as an inspiration, let alone mention his name. He also has a habit of getting verbally aggressive when confronted with the facts. The man is a hack, that wrote some decent novels, and has coasted of the fame of the games for the past 15 years.
@@finismalorum9746 - Martin may have mentioned his source of inspiration but that doesn't change the fact that he was FAR MORE than just inspired by the Melnibonéans. And a thank you is a nice gesture - but nothing more. Martin has made considerably more green than Moorcock. What about shoving a bit over to the heirs of his source?! Plus, not too many know about this and thus, credit Martin for it. So... As for Sapkowsky, yes, you are right. He, too plagiarized Moorcock and to a FAR GREATER extend than Martin! And never admitted to it. Thing is that 1985 nobody would have thought the collapse of the iron curtain possible and so the Pole just went ahead, copied and claimed everything for himself thinking nobody would ever know, especially not those in Eastern Europe 😂🤣. I guess years after the Wall had fallen he both lacked the courage and the wisdom to confess his theft and then there were the games... I don't like this man and this blatant case of plagiarism is just one reason. Isn't it striking that both Sapkowsky and Martin have really nothing else of greatness than that which they plagiarized... 😏😜?! Greetings and have a blessed Easter time if you celebrate it and a beautiful prolonged weekend if you don't!
Started watching this. Googled "the witcher netflix is a mess". First link is a video from the same guy of the vid I'm watching with the title as my google query. I hate coincidences.
Plagerism and Homage normally spit in each other's face. Like yeah Tragic Whitehaired dude with a special sword who slays monsters, Elric is the blue print, and the author of the witcher was the architect who said "Aight lets change some shit."
What exactly is the source/sources on Sapkowski's refusal to admit the Elric inspiration? I know, i know, i can just look it up but the thing is i'm not going to read articles upon articles or watch interviews upon interviews. As a side note i still don't get it man; still liking The Witcher when you belief it's plagiarism. I'm still not sure what to think of it but if i did believe, if for example a book i read was a work of plagiarism i'd do my best to sell it of or get my money back.
@@scouttf2244 I’m working on a follow up very slowly. There’s a bunch of RUclips interviews of his to watch. As far as staying away from the Witcher some do out of principal which is good and others like me are content with both. It’s a shame Elric is this forgotten hero but in another universe he got a video game first instead of the Witcher and that propelled him to the moon again.
26:24 "Warhammer are simple thieves. I mean they just don't steal from me, they steal from everybody. So as far as I'm concerned that's simple theft, it's commercial theft." - Michael Moorcock
They say that some writers are actually channeling actual hero's stories from other times and dimensions. I think this could possibly be true and the "Eternal Champion" is actually one soul incarnating as he walks on the Hero's Journey. Elric, Hawkmoon, Geralt, Paul from Dune and even Thor.
Interesting video. Elric is definitely a possible inspiration for Sapkowski's Geralt. From the surface it may look like plagiarism but there are too many differences. You can say the same for Drizzt Do'Urden, while similar but vastly different. Geralt was never royalty, never got with his cousin and wasn't a sellsword. In fact, Geralt kept stating in books that he was never a sellsword even when rich and powerful people kept trying to egg him on. He always stated that he was a monster hunter and only killed humans in self-defense or to protect others. Geralt is also a mutant which is the reason why he ended being albino. If Elric and Geralt would've met, they probably wouldn't like each other because of their political views.
@@whyonthefall5373 Yeah, Geralt in the books and video games always states that he tries to never fall back on basic human instincts alone. Basically fight or flight instincts and tries his best to control both his instincts and emotions. Even when he's doped on potions to enhance his abilities. There are very rare moments he goes berserk but ends up hating himself because he felt like a monster. It's that whole "would you become a monster to fight monsters?" kind of story telling. I feel left out because Elric's books seem so cool and I want to read it before it gets popular.
@@donjwolf The books always described Geralt as having "pale" or "white" skin. He's literally a white guy. In the Last Wish, he mentions to Lola about his loss of pigmentation on skin and hair because of the constant experiments done to him. That's pretty much albino, except his eyes aren't red.
Conan of Cimmeria - warrior and swordmaster roaming the land, killing monsters and mages also shagging lots of princesses and being involved in politics (Robert E. Howard - 1930s) Aragorn - swordmaster roaming the land, killing monsters, being involved in politics also shagging one princess (at least I think he did...) (Tolkien - 1950s) Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser - warrior and mage roaming tha land killing monsters etc..... ( Fritz Leiber - 1960s) Kane - inhumanly skilled swordmaster roaming the land killing monsters, being involved in politics and shagging ladys (Karl Wagner - 1970s) And that is just a tip of an iceberg. Hundreds of fantasy heroes and stories meet your conditions of plagiarism. Or maybe it's not plagiarism. Maybe it's just one of very popular tropes of fantasy genre. Insted of looking into non existing problems try to be more positive mate.
Fafhrd & Gray Mouser -- first story 1939. Nights Black Agents. Skafloc. Elric. The honourable list goes on but only one is accused of plagiarism. Hmmmm....
Interesting. I didn't even know about Elric. I feel bad now. Also a bit paranoid, been working on a story (story driven video game) for 5 years. It is inspired by Conker Bad fur day, Zelda and Banjo & Kazooie. But it is it's own thing, own story, music, characters etc It's one thing to be inspired, but this scared me a bit.
That sounds awesome dude. Subbed. There’s one game I’ve had my eye on that’s inspired by Spyro(started as a fan sequel originally but had to change it) where you play as a bat called Zera Myths Awaken. Note your influences and you’ll be fine.
@@Calypso694 Haha, nice!! Thanks a lot, buddy. Great vid. I subbed back. Thats also funny, we somewhat had a similar point during development, only with Conker!
I was just on a feed about witchers latest series bombing n the comments were full of people from east europe claiming its all about their culture, but when i played the game which i enjoyed i just assumed it was a rip off of just about every monster etc depicted in western movies/books etc, i didnt mind, after seeing the delusional comments before i decided to google if it was ripped off n it led me here, i didnt know the half of it lol, even the protagonist was ripped off ffs.
Except you forget that: One, in the core pentalogy Geralt isn't actually a 'wandering sellsword' but actually a father looking for his (adoptive) daughter in a world ravaged by war. He is only mercenary in the first two books. Did you even read the novels? Two, Trial of the Grasses is a series of magic-scientific experiments bordering on child torture meant to show how corrupt witcher order became to sustain itself, not a fucking spiritual quest which is based on shamanic spirit quests - they're literally nothing alike aside from the word 'trial'. Three, "Witchers don't have emotions" is actually just a stereotype based on negative perception of witchers by the people, all witchers we see are shown to clearly have normal human emotions, so that's a lie. Four, Geralt isn't an albino, like you said, albinism is TOTAL loss of pigmentation - Geralt only lost pigmentation in his hair, his skin and eyes are intact - your 'white skin' is straight up a lie, both in books, comics, series and games Geralt has always been depicted with regular pink skin. Though to be fair, Sapkowski admits that physical appearance of Geralt was inspired by Elric, openly naming his inspirations - just like Moorcock openly named HIS inspirations. Five, magic potions are an extremely old fantasy trope, dating back to medieval times, and you can find them in pocket of pretty much every adventurer in every modern fantasy story, and claiming Moorcock invented them is pathetically laughable. Did every game with healing potions also rip off Moorcock? For fucks sake. Oh, and using games is cheating since we're talking about Sapkowski's work, don't we? Six, Elric's sword is a powerful sentient magical artifact with its own mind. Geralt's rune sword is a very sharp piece of steel that cuts things well, and happens to be engraved with runes that are NOT magical, and are literally just regular non-magical writing - if I recall, Geralt's sword "mystic" inscription literally says "down to all the motherfuckers". The runes definitely AREN'T enchanted in the actual books, again - using games is cheating, because they weren't made by Sapkowski. Also rune swords weren't invented by Moorcock, but by Norse sagas. Seven "each character is in love with a black haired sorceress" I'm starting to get pissed off now dude. Moorcock invented HAIR COLORS now. For fucks sake. Like, Geralt is also in love with a red-haired sorceress (Triss Merigold) which part you conveniently ignore in your 'analysis'. Eight, literally 90% of medieval fantasy books take place in a world that is a sword and sorcery take on Europe. Parts of Middle Earth are a sword and sorcery take on Europe. Setting of A Song of Fire and Ice is a sword and sorcery take on Europe. For love of God, just stop. I'm starting to doubt if you're either intentionally nitpicking to spread misinformation for clicks, or if you just never read the novel pentalogy. Fuck this stupid video, and fuck every moron who will now endlessly parrot that Witcher is a copy of Elric without reading either.
A for effort. Feel free to read my pinned comment and check out the video linked that goes into much more elaborate details than I did and does a better job. I’ve told others of course I’d go back and do this again BUT plenty of into on the net to get you going. So it’s feel redundant to me. Have fun.
@@Calypso694 The linked video by Rageaholic you mean? I'm debunking it right now, doesn't fare much better and is also based on poor knowledge of Witcher novels. Or if you mean something else, I sadly can't see your pinned comment for some reason.
shinobody no that’s the one I mean. Look I hate to break it to you and all the other fans who have a hard for sapkowski. The guy is a plagiarist. I pointed this out in my video that one of (and the version of plagiarism I’m using here) is that regardless if you give credit to whoever you stole from or not, if a majority of “your work” is someone else’s regardless of the creativities and liberties you went with, it’s still plagiarism. That’s the Witcher. Call them similarity or tropes all you like. Give me the nothing is new under the sun speech all day long. The hard hard fact, is that you can interchangeably take sections of Elric stories, change the names to Geralt etc and they’d still be the same. It would still sound, feel and read like the Witcher, because the Witcher IS Elric. It doesn’t matter that the stories might branch of and be different here and there and with overall plot when the characters, world, themes and ideas, yes certain plot elements as well are all straight up someone else’s. It’s plagiarism. I can create a character call Barry Motter from Brooklyn New York who attends a magical school in the projects. I still just ripped off of Harry Potter. Do I like the Witcher? I do. The games are mildly fun and yes the books are entertaining for the most part, but the character is still plagiarism. No discredit to CDPR I think with what they did with the Witcher and Geralt ALMOST makes him an original character that does fall under the “inspired” category but as for the books? That’s a different story. You think this is bad go ahead and look up batman and the shadow, the phantom and black panther/punisher. Plagiarism is nothing new within any industry. Hell IGN more than a few times straight up plagiarized people and thought they could get away with it.
@@Calypso694 Elric books are actually relatively different from Witcher books, but keep saying what you want. You have no arguments to back up what you say beyond the surface stuff. Also Batman was a Shadow ripoff for first like, three months, before Bill Finger found a completely original direction for him, with Commissioner Gordon being his ally, Batman never killing, never using guns, Robin, Batmobile, Batsignal and cast of supervillains like Dr Death, Hugo Strange, Joker and Catwoman - none of which are present in Shadow stories.
Plagiarism is a serious accusation. And there is a big difference between merely being unoriginal and stealing outright. I think there are enough differences between Elric and Geralt to make Witcher it's own, albeit mediocre, story.
I think what gets me about people crying about the Witcher being the probable memetic offspring of Elric is the hypocrisy of it all. Elric isn't all that original either. Elric as a character and his saga was also made by taking ideas from already existing fantasy stories, mythologies and even pulp literature like Conan. And it may just be that Geralt is the more fully baked product at the end of the day.
@@furtivedolus2504 Just pointed out he is open about his stuff, while sapkowski is trying to hide it, for obvious reasons I might add. No problem with taking from someone just be honest about it, especially when you take so much it's borderline plagiarism. That's what got people upset.
i do. i liked 2 mostly playing 3 now. its ok so far. 1 i liked the story but gameplay feels dated and was a bit bland buti was rushing and i feel that game needs to played at a slow pace really taking it in
@@Calypso694 yea the first game is very outdated, the second is still good imo and the third is amazing imo. as for the elric author i saw the man states that he has no problem with people being inspired by his works and writing based upon them, so is the whole controversy with the witcher author just based on principles? or is there another layer to it?
@@Calypso694 btw i never read the books lol, i only played the games and i liked them alot. i could care less about the books tbh xD i just find reading books boring im being honest, idc if you look down on me for saying this.
Jack Jager a lot of it is principles I find. It’s the principle he ripped off and made an empire out of another persons work. That’s the issue really. If he admitted it it’s whatever but he hasn’t and probably won’t.
Here is a much more detailed and lengthy video on the same subject: ruclips.net/video/TkiP64adGjY/видео.html
Also due to the overwhelming negative response (lol of course it’s expected) I highly recommend everyone to research on their own. Think of this video as an introduction. Plenty of good videos out there and articles on this subject by other RUclipsrs and bloggers.
apologies for the sound issues. It sounded fine when editing and testing before upload but idk. Apologies.
A couple of things I left out in the Compare and Contrast section simply for time:
1. Each character has a Best Friend Sidekick- Elric and Geralt each travel their respective worlds with a friend(s). In Elrics case it’s Moonglum. Moonglum is a womanizing alcoholic comedic idiot Rogue. Who love women just as much as his axes. They travel together often or stumble into each other. Elric also has Wheldrake a..:yup you guessed it- comedic Bard sidekick for an adventure or two.
Geralt has Dandilion Primarily. A womanizing alcoholic comedic idiot Bard who loves his women just as much as poetry. Geralt and him travel often together or yup you guessed it...bump into each other.
2. Each universe runs on Multiverse Theory system. (Michael Moorock first introduced The Multiverse in his story The Sundered Worlds in 1963. And of course would use it throughout his work.)
They each have a (and I’m not even kidding here, it’s the exact same name) Conjunction of The Spheres event that kicks off their respective universes. The conjunction is a cataclysmic event in which The Multiverses collide invading each other. Either destroying and resetting the universes or having creatures invade. The conjunction happens every million years or something.
Now I’m mostly talking about the books here but if you believe the Witcher games are canon (technically yes seeing as how CDPR owns the rights) then the conjunction can happen again. Although in Sapkowski books the conjunction was a one time thing. In Moorcocka work the conjunction is an event that happens every so often.
3. You’ll notice they are both called The White Wolf....
4. I also find it odd that Book Geralt is quite thin for being a professional monster killer don’t you? Almost like he still needs potions...he also gets his ass handed to him more than once in the books.
5. (someone pointed this out in a thread I forgot to throw in also) Destiny, Fate- Law Chaos Balance: Each series has incredibly strong themes of that throughout. I mention it passing by in the video.
Elric seems to talk about it every chapter or so especially in the later part of the series.
The Witcher blabs about it from page 1 to the ending of the series in Lady of The Lake.
They are each (whether they believe it or not) bound by fate and deny or accept it or are reluctant.
Now I get it- Fate and Destiny is a common thing among the fantasy genre. But again, when your albino mercenary spellsword blabs about it constantly...
The Witcher games are a different story for another time. Same with Game of Thrones.
Finally for some reason the text in this video keeps messing up even after testing and it worked fine before rendering.
Anyways I’ve exhausted myself on this subject I think but feel free to keep the debate going and be kind and courteous.
I think some of your points are very good and some are a bit flawed in the arguments but good job.
>You’ll notice they are both called The White Wolf....
Do you even know why Geralt is called the "white wolf"? Part of it is the hair which was the results of experiments done on him as a child until Elric who was born with it. The other part being the fact that we went to the School of the Wolf.
> I also find it odd that Book Geralt is quite thin for being a professional monster killer don’t you?
Yes, because Geralt is a direct repudiation of characters like Conan and a reflection of historical knights being rather svelte with a wasp-thin waste. Look up paints from the era and you will see mean who are the polar opposite of what we image a knight to be.
> (someone pointed this out in a thread I forgot to throw in also) Destiny, Fate- Law Chaos Balance: Each series has incredibly strong themes of that throughout. I mention it passing by in the video.
These are minor themes, at best. There's an optional conversation about them in the first GAME that is more food for thought. It's something that has no bearing on the plot. While I'm at it, the ideas of chaos/balance was pioneered by Empedocles in 5th century BC.
@@TheTundraTerror 1. He also slaughters entire villages further adding To the monicker. He also fights like a wolf on the battlefield. Sounds a lot like another albino I know from the 60s.
2. Geralt is thin because Elric was and Geralt is a rip off of that character. Kind of reaching with that medieval art take. Good idea though. Sorry if Geralt is so good with a sword and badass monster slayer no excuse for him to be thin. He also dresses in black.
3. Law and chaos and balance are literally the main themes carried across the entire Witcher book series and it’s more than just one conversation in the first game. It’s in 2 and 3 also.
@@Calypso694 1. I would like to point out that White Wolf or the Wolf Totem is a really old tradition in Slavic culture. According to the old pagan religion Dajbog (Dazbog, one of high deities) transformed into white wolf. This was often recreated by Slavic warriors by wearing wolf skin. If I am not mistaken Saxo Gramaticus wrote about it. In some Slavic traditions Slavs are descendants of wolves. Wolves play a huge role in Slavic culture in general. People were often named Vuk or Volk (depending on language/dialect, meaning wolf). Some Roman legions wore wolf skin but for a different reason and with no cultural similarity. Similar can be found later with Germanic people, where the most famous example would be Mozart - Wolfgang Amadeus, where Wolfgang means wolf's tracks, and he got the name to fear off disease and death since children died often at the time.
Similar Wolf Totem and White Wolf traditions can be found among Mongols and Vikings as well as North American natives and probably many other nations. According to all ancient beliefs involving wolves and white wolves they can be boiled down to four things: wolves have incredible stamina, are powerful animals and once in a fight they don't back down, they are cooperative and lead by an alpha. One doesn't have to dig much to find historical figures compared to or named Wolf or White Wolf in various cultures.
This being said, any use of a name White Wolf and comparison to wolf or wolves generally can not be stated as being plagiarism since it exists for centuries, even millennia. It is almost the same as with calling someone The Great, which some kings/emperors were called. Also, this does not mean the nick name White Wolf wasn't stolen from Elric, it means that the very nick name is not original in the first place.
2. "Do your research!" Okay, I did! "IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT 19TH CENTURY ROMANTICISM HAD AND HAS A CULTURAL INFLUENCE ON POLAND!"
3. No. No, it's not. Maybe Destiny is one of them, but Discrimination is a much bigger themes. Witchers being massive outcasts and, thought the series, we see that reflected in the way they are persevered and treated. Is there anything like that in Elric? Also, where exactly do we see the balance of order and chaos being played out?
@@TheTundraTerror 1. The white wolf as a nickname in popular fiction as far as I know stemmed from Michael Moorcock and Elric in the 1960s. IE way before Geralt. If it was used before that in another story by another author within contemporary fiction I honestly can’t find a source. Thanks Ron that history lesson.
2. It doesn’t matter.
3. Law and chaos and balance are central themes within the Witcher books and throughout the games each character or villain representing each alignment. Geralt is the balance here. Nilfgsrd and to an extent the wild hunt are the chaos and the law would be I suppose Radovid. Hell the symbols the chaos Star and law arrow are even used as their sigils. Another thing that you can go and throw a credit to moorcock.
It’s more about discrimination? Ok. Elric as a melbibone is part of a gated and feared race and nobody like him and they fear him. Kind of like a group of Witcher and a Witcher I also know of.
I’m done. I hate to break it to you AGAIN but sapkowski plagiarized anything you try and come up with was already done within in the Elric books and eternal champion series.
Enjoy reading the Elric books. Have a good day.
And then came GRRM and made a whole race of dragon riding Elrics with doomed, tragic lives, magical powers (slightly) and epic stories.
Actually GRRM is a buddy of Moorecock. They even slip several more references to Elric in the show on his behalf.
Martin’s loaded with hidden homages to other authors. One of the houses in Westeros is named “House Jordayne of the Tor” with a lord named “Trebor” and the sigil of a golden quill.
If that’s not a homage to anything in the Fantasy genre, I don’t know what is.
@@killianhackenschmidt4987 I had to think about that for a minute (I suck at the obvious), Robert (Trebor) Jordan (Jordayne) who wrote the Wheel of Time series and a few Conan novels his publisher was Tor.
after solving that I can go to bed now. 'night.
Or House Peake of Starpike, named after Mervyn Peake and characters from the Gormenghast trilogy. My favourite is House Tully, who have lords named after Sesame Street characters (Lord Elmo Tully, Kermit Tully, Grover Tully, and Oscar Tully)
That’s a straight homage to Moorecock. In the TV show you have peasants call out Storm Bringer and the other sword that Elric uses. Nothing but love there.
Sapkowski on the other hand….ignore it like the plague. It’s also a coincidence that Elric of Melnibone came out in Poland shortly before he started working on The Witcher.
Elric going from a great emperor to a sellsword is a very interesting concept.
It's like the opposite of the 'Rags to Riches' trope that most games, books, and films constantly do.
Yes, he was supposed to be the opposite of Conan the Barbarian.
Wait till you see his sword
@@JonS
Oh I see.
As a writer myself there is a difference from being inspired by and out right ripping off entire plot arcs. Eargon is clearly inspired by star wars but it is different enough that it can stand on its own
I have to get around to reading those. Been putting them off for years
@@Calypso694 the first book is okay but the rest just slow down completely. There is one that is literally nothing but the main character forging a sword which I give props to for being realistic but it completely halts the overall plot of the books
Not having read either of the books, doesn't the video tell us that the initial character creation is the only thing that MAY have been copied, with the stories explicitely being different?
@@Alexander_Kale Yeah that's pretty much what happened due to the way first witcher short story came to be. It was spur of the moment thing written for fun for a fantasy competition where I assume most other works were fanfics and parodies. It didn't even win the first place but people liked it and wanted more. It wasn't like Sapkowski had some sort of masterplan. He changed the story considerably from that of Elric and made it into his own thing with the later stories and books. I mean honestly, I've read both series and they have very different vibes.
@@LazarKG92 I would assume so. I have looked into this a tiny bit after stumbling upon this video, and I have read Elric described as an "undying elven sorceror Prince and later emperor with drug problems and a mystical sword that eats the souls of his enemies", and the titular Witcher as a " perpetually drunken, promiscuous murder hobo pest exterminator".
Don't get me wrong, I have ordered the first volumes of both series by now, but I am slightly confused here.
The empire of novigrad? I think you meant to say Nilfgaard.
Am I the only one who thinks the artwork from earlier science fiction and fantasy comics where more imaginative then comic art of today?
I too have a soft spot for those artworks; they’re a league of their own!
Today's sci-fi tries to gather the mainstream audience, then gives what people already expects. There's exception, of course, but most of it is variations of what we already know.
Yesterday's sci-fi... I won't say they didn't care about the popular success, but they were trying to create a new audience instead of keeping the old one. Leading to some visual innovation (for example H.R. Geiger for Alien. Moebius, with the Incal. Mezières for Valerian and Laureline, a very likely strong inspiration for Star Wars)
The thing I want to know is if Michael Moorcock got the name "The White Wolf" from the Robert E. Howard El Borak short story "Son of the White Wolf". Considering he conceived of Elric as an Anti-Conan it wouldn't surprise me if he came across that story and just liked the name
The name seems to haave been used in fiction and folklore before but Moorcock used it to describe an albino warrior and the name probably just came out of that.
Probably, Moorcock is a big REH fan from what I can tell.
isnt Borak like 19 century?
White wolf is just one of many nicknames for Elric and really pretty common one for a warrior. Lone wolf, white wolf, great wolf, whatever descriptor + predator. White lion, White tiger, nothing too specific.
Sorry I'm late to the party, but I wouldn't have known about this until Raz0rfist pointed me your way. Well done!
Same.
I am slightly late... The Lord if Razors had much to say, but lead me here once more.
I now humbly accept your wisdom...
That happened to me too.
Welcome to the club.
Guess I'm sixth in the club.
21:27 You don't need potions to fight human enemies in the games. I dispatch human enemies just fine when I play Geralt.
I barely used decoctions or potions on death march; there's no real point especially early game.
You either win fights without getting hit, or you die from 2 scratches
@Killerbug7 0 I need potions for the tougher monsters, guess not everyone's as badass as you.
In the novels, both Elric and Geralt rely on potions for enhanced combat ability.
The games have arguably worked to minimize the similarities, to the point that there are lines like Geralt saying he'd be a veiny morsel to some monsters, but him being a hulking musled brute in that version, and Geralt getting more and more buff as each game came out.
The dual wielding is also from the games, to make Geralt a little more distinctive.
@@hariman7727 Elric relies on potions to *survive* not just to being able to fight...
@@TheBayzent and Gerald would be dead a hundred times over at minimum without the enhanced combat prowess of the potions he drinks.
Same coin, opposite side.
By stating this was an influence for Legacy of Kain, I'm sold.
Elric was intended to be anti-Tolkien. Unlike LOTR, the Elric saga, in part, was counter culture 1960s, anti-establishment and anti-British Empire building, according to Moorcock. And he happily acknowledged Elric the anti-hero followed in the wake of characters created by sword and sorcery pioneer Robert E. Howard (Conan the Barbarian) as well as Fritz Lieber's Fahfrd and the Gray Mouser series of books. Moorcock looked to both Lieber and Howard as his natural sword and sorcery antecedents..
In theory Elric was intended (and requested by his editor) to be an anti-Conan. good ol' Moorcock was kind of "anti"-tolkien back in the day because of various reasons both literally and political but he always said his "hate" against tolkien was overstated (even if he still baffled by some of his (tolkien's) "nuttier" fans and excessive prominence.) I'm a Moorcock fan myself and read quite a number of his more s&s pulpy books stories. I also partially read a few of more avant garde new wave stuff but for now i'm focusing on the books that, as far as i understand, lead to the end of the eternal champion affair. The end of Hawkmoon series and The Dragon In The Sword that is a mainly a Erekose story and was back in the eighties the "culmination" the cycle (i think it's no more).
@@FutureHH Well, from what I recall it was Moorcock's anti-British Empire (or 1960s-era anti-Establishment sentiment) that propelled his works of that time period. It ran counter to Tolkien's pro-Empire stance. It influenced a good deal of Elric of Melniboné, along with works of popular sci-fi and fantasy writers of that time.
Yes, I too read most of Moorcock's eternal champion series. I think Elric and Erekose were my favs though I also like the Corum series too.
@@kamuelalee I agree. he was, is, more rebellious and unconventional than tolkien. ironically they share a trait. they were in their specific way anarchist.
@@FutureHH Agreed too. I think Moorcock did play up the anarchist, and certainly did so through his Elric stories.
Cheers!
"Did any of that sound familiar?" And here I am thinking yah Conan.
Now I'm laughing when at the point in the vid where Elric was intended to be a anti Conan.
Yeah the charchtrr is inverted by he does CONAN like adventures.
the most underrated conan story is people in the dark, the alternate conan lol
"We're not so different, you and I...."
Funny, there's actually a comic where Conan and Elric team up
Well I think it's obvious: Geralt in an eternal champion apparently xD
I read the first Elric book long before I even heard about the existance of Geralt. It was a fascinating tale, and I admit I was sold at the time. However, when I read about the witcher, I never even made a link between the two. In fact, I find both of these worlds so vastly different, that I cannot even begin to understand your claim. Just because the main protagenists have simularities, doesn't mean the are the same, that one writer stole the idea from the other.
How many books are there about wizards, are they all stolen from Tolkien? How many science fiction heroes have been on the moon, are they all stolen from Wells? How many stories are there about kings and knights, are they all stolen from the King Arthur myth? No, ofcourse not. Some aren't even inspired by them. There is a lot of lore and myth out trere in the world. Yes sometimes people hear about something and give it another twist, I won't deny that. But claiming an entire universe has been stolen, just because the protagonists share simular traits like white hair and drinking potions? I mean, Geralt is no megaglomaniac like Elric. Geralt is a "nobody" basicly, Elric is an emperor. Geralts main goal is slaying monsters and stay out of politics if possible. Elric slays armies and conquers countries, he IS politics. There, just a couple of difference.
If you really want to see simularities, you will find them even in the most differing subjects. but this always goes at the cost of objectivity. You need to look at the whole. Yes there are simularities, but nothing more than a couple of features doesn't mean it has all been stolen, at best it is inspired, but even that goes pretty far imo.
Main lore/plot element of both is called "conjunction of spheres", yeaaaaah. To not sound like a colossal prick, my point is, the main plot element is called the same thing and is essentially the same, that being interdimensional collision causing problems (if different ways yes but if it's called the same and very similar).
Which is why plagiarism was never brought on my the writers estate
JoeyPsych To be honest with you a lot of authors steal. I just like the way the Witcher plays out. The savior of the world has been stored so many times. LOL
Fernando Reimpell Bravo I apologize, I I really don’t care about the subject of if anything was stolen or borrowed, I just like the Witcher series.
JoeyPsych It all depends on how you look at it. I believe they borrow the wizards so much is written about wizards it’s hard to step on other people stuff in their wizards
One thing on the emotions though is the fact that the Witcher’s being emotionless is more of a misconception and we see multiple Witcher show emotion in Khal Morren
yes well aware I goofed on some things by now lol TRUST ME :)
What in the fuck is Khal morren?
@@thelanternof0 The long-lost brother of Khal Drogo
@@kamiilmroz7428 whot?
@@kamiilmroz7428 There aren't a group of people who hate the Polish based in America. There are people of every country that don't like how Polish people they meet/observe/know are assholes. Pretty sure that's not a coordinated effort to hate them, just a strong coincidence.
Isn't Michael Moorcock know as the guy who claimed jrr Tolkien was glorifying war in the lord of the rings.
Jrr Tolkien a man who fought in the battle of the somme.
Moorcock was a hippie. He met Tolkien once or twice and Tolkien hurt his feelings or something. Never liked him since after those meetings.
@@Calypso694 lol I like to imagine Grrm having a similar reaction.
Timothy Dexter ah. Idk every interview I’ve seen he in some way bashed lotr a bit. It is possible to line but not like an author?
@@Calypso694 He was also very butthurt about John Norman's Chronicles of Gor because it "disrespects women", and openly used the "I'm not for censorship but..." argument. He is the definition of a fantasy puritan and picks fights with anyone that doesn't promote his idea of what fantasy writers should promote.
Andrzej Sapkowski is by far worse. He all but directly called video gaming community idiots at a convention once, because he was butthurt that The Witcher games were more popular than his novels and he made a bad choice to request to be paid in advance instead of by percentage of The Witcher sales. Then he sued CD Projekt using a polish law that was clearly not intended for situations such as his but was vague enough for him to use.
Both of the writers are very smug, snobbish, and vain, but one of them is at least original.
STOP IT! Check your facts before you accuse. This is stuff spread by crazed JRRT fans. Context. Context Context, Sergeant
Idk - I've heard a few arguments like this. I've read the first book of Witcher shorts, and they're really not at all like the Elric stories, which I've read many times - I've got the entire DAW collection, and I'm a huge fan - not as big a fan of Geralt. Geralt is more of a monster hunter, while Elric is a 'doomed' adventurer who ends up getting swept up in various scenarios for various reasons - not necessarily to hunt monsters, but more bc of the war of Chaos and Law.
All literature is built upon the literature that came before, right? Someone said this, I'm not sure who. How many versions of Frankenstein or Dracula have we gotten? How many Cthulhu horror stories have we seen?
Did you know there's a short story about a world where mutants exist, and the government is trying to hunt them down and exterminate them? It's a Philip K Dick short called The Golden Man - released in the 1950s, nearly a decade before Stan Lee and Jack Kirby released Uncanny X-Men. It's a really great short story - you can find it for free online, but I first read it in the Philip K Dick Reader, which has most of his most popular works.
Now, do I think Lee and Kirby stole from Dick's Golden Man? Idk - maybe one of them read the story and was inspired - the mutants in the Golden Man don't wear costumes or anything, but the themes are VERY similar to the X-books - the government is afraid that mutants will take over and become the predominant species on Earth. It's so similar it's funny, but I think the stories that spawned from those early comics are truly their own thing.
I think it's okay to retell stories in your own way - Moorcock did a lot of 'borrowing' with many of his stories, often just retelling or reworking old myths. Stephen King's Salem's Lot is just a retelling of Dracula in small-town Maine (his short Jerusalem's Lot, a prequel to Salem's Lot, is even told in epistolary form like Dracula, but is more of a Lovecraftian story than a simple vampire story - worth the read also).
I just think there are a myriad of tropes in whatever genre you choose to work in, be it sci-fi, fantasy, horror, etc., and all those tropes are up for grabs. There's a fine line between 'inspired by' and 'plagiarized'. I have no doubt that both Sapkowski and CD Project Red were very aware of Elric of Melnibone, but I think it tows the line fairly well - if you've read the stories in The Last Wish, it really doesn't feel like the heavy-metal-fantasy-type stories Moorcock wrote of Elric, imo - I also think the Moorcock stories are far superior, but it doesn't have its own popular gaming franchise, so I guess it's not as 'cool' to like.
Either way, good video. Any chance I get to hear someone talk about Elric is worth it
So youu didnt read all the Witcher books then? The whole point here is that Sapkowski denies at every turn the similarities and tries to pass off his ideas as purely original. Not that he was inspired by it. And by the way the threshold for plagiarism is as small as a similar name and appearance.
Geralt isn't exceptional among Withers in that he has emotions. It's explained later that Witchers have emotions, just don't show them and help spread the myth that they don't - so people won't try to persuade them to work for free.
Who cares when the entire witcher series is a copy and past of elric of melnibone? Not just in look or personality, the entire damn thing
@@jonathansoko1085 lol no
@@ajuc005 You know how i know you have neither read the books of either series? Because of your comments. Its undeniable dude, and im a witcher fan. Denying does no one favors.
@@jonathansoko1085 You're not only not a Witcher fan, you have not read any of the books. That's the only way you can so arrogantly make a false claim about them being "copy-pasted".
Answer me this, then: in the Witcher series, what are the equivalents to Melnibone, Xiombarg, Cymoril, Yrkoon, Mournblade and Arioch? How does Geralt obtain the Black Blade, and what is it's actual name in the series? What deity does Geralt use in his iconic battlecry? Which deities or demons does Geralt summon during the course of the series? On the converse side, when does Elric invoke the Law of Surprise and who is his Child of Destiny, and what is the name of the knight Elric frees from the Hedgehog Curse?
@@TheFifthHorseman_ Wrong, im a massive fan and own SEVERAL sets of hte books. Get over it kiddo.
Hmmmm also sounds like Drizzit front the Dark Elf books I grew up on. Makes me want to read Elric even more since so many people rip it off :/
i would suggest so. last time i checked the books were pretty cheap on amazon. THAT or the audio books on youtube that you can easily find.
I've seen accusations that Drizzit is even more of a blatant rip off of Elric than Geralt.
@@TheAutistWhisperer he is, but at lease the author is upfront about the inspuration for drizzit.
Drizzt is in the same type of character but he avoids being effectively the same character by either subverting or avoiding the elements that are copied wholesale from Elric to Geralt.
@Bruno Beautiful if I remember correctly, Wulfgar was supposed to be the main character. So many people wanted to know more about Drizzt after the Crystal Shard novel, that he became the main character, and Wulfgar became a side character.
There are tons of Elric wannabes in fantasy:
-Arthas from Warcraft
-Kain from Legacy of Kain
-Alucard from Castlevania
-Griffith from Berserk
-Prince Nuada from Hellboy 2
-Nekron from Fire and Ice
It's just that Sapkowski's Geralt is so blatant it's hard not to notice.
Isnt every book just a rip-off of the dictionary?
😂😂😂
I've been sayin it for years
There is inspiration/homages like Eye of the World (but that breaks off half way by the end and later books) being an intentional Tolkien-esque book than there is blatant plagiarism like Sword of Shannara (which breaks up by the end of the third and last entry of the original trilogy).
The guy never expected to be caught, plain and simple, back then nobody thought the bloc would fall and he was just gonna be a local known author. As a translator, he had access to it, nobody else in the area would ever read it due to reasons, and the cover up for it would be at hand.
While I agree with some points, I have to disagree with the point that themes are the same. They are quite the opposite in my opinion. Witcher is a careful deconstruction of Aurthorian myths, legends and slavic fairytales. Elric is an example of one of the first grimdark-ish fantasies but it very much plays into what are now considered tropes (but quite original for it's time).
@EccentricSage still doesn't change the fact that they are vastly different, claiming that they are thematicaly the same is just plain wrong
@Timothy Dexter Samaritan? Lmfao Arthurian with a lot of it's tropes is based off the Irish, and in turn the broader Celtic mythologies and the way of life. Excalibur is the Sword of Destiny mentioned frequently in the legends of Lú, the round table and Arthur himself being based off the Irish Fionn too. Fuck off with that 'point blank Samaritan myth', study the Irish mythos and you'll see that's a load of crap.
Elric came before the time of grim dark...back in the day, it was just called dark fantasy or sword and sorcery.
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 completely agreed, I never would have made the link between the two. One is dark, a "punch in the face", the other is humorous and about the importance of family. But, the philosophical discussions about Chaos and Law in the witcher is a bit on the nose
That's setting not themes.
Man, the ratio on this video tells me a ton of people never even clicked play.
Nice way to mark off criticism of a video ya got there....
I watched the video and its obvious the youtuber has not read through both characters, or has some funky memory.
Rokiriko by the time I was wrapping this up I mentally exhausted myself so I fully admit some points I make aren’t great or outwright terrible.
@@Calypso694 then u should correct it
@MrNahual2099 only people that use terms like "Fanboy" are emotionally invested in fictional world's enough to act like a little prick on the internet...
Could you link some interview where Sapkowski denies being influenced by Elric of Melniboné. I tried to do some digging by myself but I couldn't find anything about it.
, heres an interview he mentions Elric. He also brought it up in Manuscript found in a dragons cave, an essay i beleive on writing. sugarpulp.it/en/26893/
Theres too many things there to be purley inluence. And like i said or Razor or others, if this was any other character in fiction before the contextual time, the lawyers would be out and about.
@@Calypso694 Based on your video, I thought you were suggesting that Sapkowski denied drawing inspiration from Elric of Melniboné, but in this interview he states that he "was utterly enchanted" by various authors, including Moorcock. I was hoping for some explicit denial from his side but I guess I can agree that he could give Moorcock more credit than just mentioning him in some interview.
To make the discussion more interesting, I'll try to be a devil's advocate. Perhaps Sapkowski didn't borrow more from Elric than other sources. For example, Sapkowski in another interview he stated that he relied heavily on Roman Zmorski's "Strzyga". During my brief research, I even came across a Polish article accusing him of plagiarizing this short story. Maybe in his eyes, it doesn't make sense to single out Moorcock's work while he drew just as much (or even more) from other authors. Sapkowski's reluctance to single out Moorcock's work, then, could be seen as a refusal to oversimplify the intricate web of influences that inform his writing.
But to sum up, "The Witcher" seems to me more like an amalgamation of various influences and inspirations than a unique creation as Sapkowski prefers to emphasise. (Or maybe a mashup of so many things is what it makes it unique? 😄)
@@zakrz oh i agree Witcher is a bunch of things all rolled in to one. No doubting that. All the early stories(the best imo) are The Witcher meets Grimm. Its when you really start to look at the finer details and plot points and even conclusions that Elric shows up and is under the serface. Some would call it Subversive Plagiarism or something. Clever.
Well, I take the liberty to diagree with you. First of all, you seem to mix the books and the games, which I think is a serious mistake. The books were created by Andrzej Sapkowski, who did not take part in CD Projekt's "Witcher's" production. On the contrary, he distanced from it clearly saying that his story is in the books and the games are complete non-canon. There are details that may be bringing the witcher closer to Elric, but they were introduced in the games, so it is not fair to accuse Sapkowski of plagiarism, because of those. Below I refer to the particular parts of your video, I hope this will make you look a bit differently on some things.
1. Both Elric and Geralt experienced trials and ...that's where any similarity ends: at the word 'trials' as their nature was quite different in either case. Elric's trials were a kind of educational journey, definitely of mental nature, while Geralt's were a magical-herbal treatment, a procedure that altered his body: gave him super-keen senses, ability to control emotions (it did not removed them!) and his body (e.g. slower their pulse), and also made him sterile. We have mind's journey vs magical procedure on the body - not quite the same.
2. As for emotions Moorcock and Sapkowski depict completely opposite situations. In Elric's reality, deprived of feelings, he is an emotional exception. Geralt can suppress expressing emotions, which adds to other people seeing him as a cold-blooded killing machine, but he has feeling just like anybody else in his world. Was he exceptional among witchers? - absolutely NOT. It is said in the novels that witchers were perceived as emotionless, because they could hide their emotions, and they did so, which is not surprising considering people's attitude towards them. But Vesemir was Geralt's father figure, Coen befriended Ciri and often played with her in Kaer Morhen, Lambert did not like Triss - feelings, feelings all the way. And for Geralt's moody and brooding nature - this argument for plagiarism is really far-fetched. He is a typical romanticistic character: an individualist, outsider, unaccepted by the society, who fights for the good, even when it seems futile, who longs for a better but unreal world, whose love to Yen brings a lot of pain and is full of obstacles, who dwells in deliberations about his feelings and emotions and the surrounding world. If you understand how enormous influence the 19th century romanticism had on Polish culture (novels, poetry, movies, stage dramas etc.), and still has, you could see that Sapkowski's inspirations were rather there than in Moorcocks's novels. Also, in some aspects of his characteristics Geralt also resembles Raymond Chandler's private eye Philip Marlowe.
3. Elric was born an albino, Geralt got his white hair during magical treatments at young age that he underwent after passing the Trial of the Grasses. But Geralt WAS NOT an albino. Yes, some people may have called him that, but that's because of his white hair - rather unusual for someone of his age - and pale (not Elric's purely white) skin. In "The Witcher" (Sapkowski's short story) his face becomes chalk-white after he drinks a potion, which means it wasn't white before that. Also, because of the treatments he would never blush. Elric's eyes were crimson red, while Geralt's were cat-like and dark, as Sapkowski describes them. He does not mention the exact color, but it is suggested in the novels that different potions can give Geralt's eyes different colors. Elric is very tall and slender, Geralt is tall with fit, but not overmuscled body.
So, we have a white-haired skinny albino with milky-white skin and red eyes vs white-haired pale guy with fit body and dark, cat-like eyes - they are similar only thanks to white hair, but visually not the same person at all.
4. Potions are quite common in fantasy, aren't they? Just like magic. It is hard to acknowledge the use of potions as plagiarism, especially that their function is quite different. Elric takes them to stay alive, he is on constant potions therapy, one could say. For Geralt they are a weapon of choice, enhancing his senses and motility when it is required for the fight. Also: different potions for different enemy and fight conditions. Treatment vs weapon of choice - quite opposite.
One more thing: yes, you need potions for Geralt to stay alive IN THE GAME, but that is the in-game mechanics, not Sapkowski's writing.
5. Moorcock's rune sword, Stormbringer, is a very important element of the story, even a supporting character to the main hero, Elric. It is sentient, it communicates with its wielder, it has magical power of enhancing Elric's abilities and it feeds on the souls of the enemies. Geralt's rune sword was ...a sword with runes. Called "silver sword" it was actually a steel one, but plated with silver, for which some monsters were vulnerable. There were no magic, at least in the books, it was a very fine weapon crafted by dwarven armorers with a runic inscription. But the main difference to Elric's sword is that it is merely a witcher's tool for the job, a unique one, but it is not anything besides that. It is more like Tolkien's swords e.g. Andúril than Moorcock's Stormbringer and in "The Lord of the Rings" I would see the inspiration for Sapkowski, as well as for countless other fantasy authors.
6. Dark-haired sorceress being a proof for plagiarism? Seriously? Do you really think that Sapkowski said to himself: Elric has black haired fiancee, so Geralt needs one too. ;-) First of all, black and white are kind of natural association. :-) Second: how many hair colors are there, four (blonde, brown, red, black... OK, white too)? Third: although Yen was his true love, he was also in relationships with women of other hair colors e.g. red (Triss) or blonde (Essi). I think this is a coincidental similarity, nothing more. And the fact that she is a sorceress? Yes, it is a bit cliche, but would it be that good for the story if she was, I don't know, a needlewoman?
Sad Gargoyle I have read all of the Witcher books and played all the games. I have read none of the Elric books. Technically I don’t know what I’m talking about LOL. I just really like the Witcher series. I probably would’ve not of liked Elric series. I’m not saying it’s bad. I just like wicher version a lot.
about runes on the Geralt's sword. It was a very "magic" runes, in old dwarf language, and they meant "death to sonsofbitches" (it's not my plagiatrism, Its a © from the witcher books!)
I agree with you on most parts but the impression I get when I read The Witcher novels is that the emotionless Witcher thing is an unfounded stereotype. Geralt is one of the more empathetic and articulate than most royalty. He experiences loneliness and despair to the point he laments to his horse how lucky he is not to feel emotion or he'd be wrecked right about now lol.
Sad Gargoyle your comment is the best and realest comment in the whole comment section. Some of these dumbasses can't think for shit. Hell I didn't know who the other guy was til I seen people trash talking geralt. Honestly whatever the other guy name is story isn't as fascinating as the Witcher. You made some great points that others will not like.
You forgot the part where Sapkowski worked for a translation publishing company in Poland and was one of the first to get his hands on Elric of Melnibone in his country and translate it.
Remind you. He read Elric and translated the books to Polish well before he started writing The Witcher. He actually started his first draft shortly after finishing Elric.
But that’s just a coincidence! Don’t you find it odd how Sapkowski was clearly so close to Elric and doesn’t mention it at all?
You make some good points overall but I disagree that it's plagiarism. Sure, Elric was a big inspiration but a lot of the features you mentioned are fairly generic. Falling in love with a strong-willed, raven-haired woman sorceress? That's not specific to Elric, that's just male fantasy. See Aragorn in LOTR. Taking potions for speed and strength? That's a fantasy staple. Having a runed sword? The witchers' swords aren't powerful because they have runes, it's because they're silver and super sharp. I can't remember in the books if they even had runes, but if they did they din't play a major part in their power at all. Being albino, and a mercenary, and nonchalant? Sure that's taken from Elric. But Geralt 100% has emotions, that's what makes the stories to good imho. It's about him as a person. Also, dealing with politics and philosophy in their weird way, that's also pretty generic to any good writing.
Responding to your other points in the comments:
- The Witcher universe doesn't really have a multiverse, but rather different times and spaces.
- Having a comedic sidekick is also a staple fantasy trope, see Don Quixote.
- Conjunction ideas are also pretty commonly used, off the top of my head I can think of it being used in the Thor 2 movie (no further comment on whether that''s good or bad).
- Copying the name White Wolf - I'll give you that. So did GRRM though.
So yes, there are a LOT of similarities and Sapkowski 110% pulled a lot from Elric. But I don't think it reaches the threshold of plagiarism. A lot of the similarities are classic fantasy tropes. Either way, great video and well done.
Thank you for actually reading the comments before jumping in to comment. Much appreciated lol
I think it wouldn't be such a big controversy if Sapkowski would actually acknowledge Moorcock and the Elric Saga as an inspiration. Instead, he refuses to and gets pissed at anyone who makes a comparison, insisting that Moorcock had no effect on the Witcher series. Which is a little hard to swallow, especially since The Last Wish was first published at the same time that Sapkowski was translating Elric into Polish.
@@upperlander9282 Having read some Moorcock, I'm not convinced it did noticeably influence Sapkowski. Sure, every book Sapkowski read probably influenced him subliminally, but I certainly don't think he ripped off Moorcock or intentionally copied parts. I don't think he was any more influenced by Moorcock than Tolkein. However, I've only read a little bit of Moorcock, I could be wrong. Either way, I enjoyed both authors a bunch and I'm grateful this debate showed me new material : )
I’d say it’s a loving parody of not only Elric but fantasy in general. The entire thing about the series is that it takes classic fantasy tropes (if not straight up fairy tales) and gives them the baggage of our world like systemic racism, how the wealthy use prejudice to further their goals, the horrors of colonialism, and the trauma of abduction. Geralt is basically a working class bloke parody of Elric as while Elric was this scholarly prince that just had empathy unlike the rest of his people, geralt has to learn to break the cycle of abuse the Witcher industry is built on by raising ciri without the horrific experiments and general bs he and his brothers in arms were put through and embracing the emotions they were always forced to suppress. He also realizes that neutrality or “both sides bad” is a bunch of holier than though bullshit, especially when it comes to people like Renfri or the Scoi’atelle who are simply striking back at a society that has thoroughly fucked them over
The problem I have with people complaining that the Witcher is ripping off of Elric is that we're pretending Elric itself was a completely original work. It's not. It drew from ideas and stories that existed before it just like the Witcher did. So... how can we condemn the Witcher and NOT Elric?
Elric's author admits to what he copies. The Witcher's does not.
@@RedCornix Then the issue isn't copying and that means people like Razorfist can pipe down about that?
@@furtivedolus2504 but that very thing was razorfist's point, so why would he pipe down about it?
@@RedCornix Razorfist doesn't even believe copyright should ever expire.
@@furtivedolus2504 irrelevant even if true.
TL;DR: There’s enough difference between the two works that The Witcher is not, in legal terms, plagiarism.
Flip that around bud.
@@Calypso694 lmao witcher fanboys are fucking delusional dude 🤭😂
@@Calypso694 if it's true for 1 then it is true for the other...
@@R1ck_Ryder I wonder if you walk around in your daily life talking shit to random people who could beat your ass over something as infintile as a book series?
@Ring-a-ding-ding baby thanks for the tag in brochacho
7:12 Stormbringer does not talk - except at the very end of the saga.
Correct. Stormbringer has actual dialogue at the end. However throughout the series Elric frequently talks to stormbringer and it murmurs and moans back in response and other times. I consider that a talking sword.
Talking at the end of the saga sounds like talking to me.
@@Jotari You can't stress it man. They are Polish. They think feeding cows chocolate is how you get chocolate milk.
@@dragoneye6229 What's with the hostility lol. Wouldn't it be smarter to attack the radical side of the fanbase rather than the whole country? Us younger generations really aren't any different from other countries (I do admit that the boomers are insufferable but that goes for pretty much everywhere)
12:00 mark massive volume spike that's a bit out of sync with the rest of the video. might want to tone it down a little bit. Shit scared the hell out of me.
You weren't fucking around. It's almost 1am, I'm watching on my phone, and was terrified that I might have woken up my 2 year old in the next room. Listen to this OP, tone that shit down!
This thing about emotions and Witchers is a lie they used to protect themselves at first, but then was used as a weapon of prejudice against them, the other witchers are also emotional. Great Vid btw, still watching.
He goofed up, the witchers aren't emotionless, they just have a dampened emotional response.
I was gonna mention warhammer but it seems you included that as well. The dark elves are basically carbon copies of the melniboneans. and the whole chaos gods thing.
Warhammer rips off everyone to the point that no one cares though.
Controversy aside, are both series worth reading?
Absolutely
19:01 is false. Witchers have emotions, Geralt isn’t the exception. It’s just a rumor spread by humans afraid of Witchers that they have no feelings. Also I don’t quite understand your potions point. Lots of fantasy characters use potions, as you state in your piece Geralt and Elric use them differently as well. So that’s a really weird comparison to make
These guys really want to uncover something that isn't all there.
From what I can gather any true similairities between the characters are the Albinism (and derived nickname) and sword and sorcery setting.
Other are purely incidental or may be inspired at best. Main characterisitic of Elric as a book protagonist - Stormbringer- is completely missing from Witcher in any equivalent that isn't already transformative.
While exploring the same themes as Elric books, from what I gather, Wicher has very different answers to those themes than Elric and Sapkowski's stories often take the piss from western stories and fairytales: Elfs in Witcher are arrogant junkies as opposed to high elfs of Tolkien, Curse of the Black Sun is there to satirise Snow White and other princesses, The Striga story is grimdark retelling of Sleeping Beauty... etc. It would not be above Sapkowski to basicaly parody Elric stories too. Not very original I know but not a plagiarism either.
The most telling sign is that owners of Elric's copyright never filed law suit against either CD Project Red or Sapkowski himself which is something that would definetly happen if the case was as clear cut as these Elric fanboys seem to wish it to be.
Franky Dostál I def agree, a lot of these people are aggressively pushing a narrative that just isn’t true.
Also from what I’ve heard from online discourse. Morcock did try to sue Sapkowski for plagiarism after being pressured to by his peers, but the courts ruled that there were way too many differences for it to be plagiarism
@@doctorace4308 Ok, lol, that would kinda make the accusations not only badly grounded but also hilariously pointless...
It's pretty apparent these guys don't know or don't care about copyright law in the slightest tho. I reckon they want to establish some dude-bro informal writers code of conduct through this whining...? It's seems really stupid imo.
On a sidenote, ironicaly all the pro-Elric videos I watched seemed to copy one another :D
Franky Dostál lol someone should make a video about these pro-Elric videos being plagiarism
@@frankydostal4758 even the albinism is stretched 'cause Geralt has normal 'pink' skin, yet his hair are white due to Grass Trial and he sometimes gets pale white when using elixirs, because they're overriding his body. Same as you would party with no sleep for 2 days. Besides Sapkowski himself says that he was inspired by Elric, but all this arguments like 'they both love black haired sorceress' are straight dumb. I don't like AS as a person, but if we go this way EVERY book is a ripp of of Illiad and myths. And Sapkowski used EVERY fairy tale/myth/folk story/D&D/fantasy books he could come up. For me Witcher aka demon hunter is more a Seven son of a seventh son story (Bulgarian/Hungarian folk story of a demon hunter). Wonder how many similar stories we would find if we dig deeper, unless this discussion is like oh GoT is a ripp of Tolkien;p
So aside from the differences between elric and Geralt, what else about these series are the similar? I mean aside from the typical fantasy tropes what else did Andrzej inspire/steal his world from?
18:58 I don't think Geralt was presented as a exception, the witchers in the school of the Wolf were perfectly able to show sympathies. It seemed more like a rumeur peoples believed in.
Part of me don't want to believe in what you said but the similiraties are far too great and numerous to be ignored. It won't stop me from enjoying the Witcher though as there is still some things that are proper to the universe despite the plagiarism. Ironically, that actually make me want to read Elric.
Elric is the true White Wolf
@Gill-Ford, The Lightning What ever souls Stormbringer doesn't take, I dedicate to you ARIOCH !
I don't think it would even be an issue if the author just said "Yeah I totally ripped off Elric but tried to put my own spin it on it by including polish mythology."
I have only the read the first Elric story and the first Witcher book, so I'm wondering if someone can tell me what the last ruler of a decaying empire and a genetically modified monster hunter have in common beyond their hair colour.
Because the Elric canon is a mess, and the first book is actually like the fifth in the timeline.
The first published Elric story had him being a mercenary.
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384the first short story (1961) it's him trying to reconquer melniboné with the aid of his nation enemies
Is it bad that I really couldn't care less if Geralt was ripped off from Elric? I mean this isn't exactly a singular phenomenon. Pretty much every fictional character that is popular is most likely highly influenced by a previous character. There's still enough differences between The two series for me to enjoy them both. Sapkowski's novels feel less like traditional fantasy and almost like a dark parody of slavic folktales and fairytales. The Witcher has more in common with Shrek than Lord of the Rings. Where as Moorcock's books feel like a much more like traditional epic fantasy. This discrepancy in storytelling is enough of a difference eventhough the characters are similar.
"The Witcher has more in common with Shrek than Lord of the Rings"
I absolutely support this claim. I love how the first two parts of the Witcher are basically classic fairytales with a dark twist.
@@dreamscapecreations4863 agreed: the differences in the story and side characters is so immense that I would never have made the connection between the two. Don't get me wrong, I agree with the video, but saying "the stories naturally veer in different directions" is a complete understatement.
That's fine, but there's still gonna be the majority of CD Project Red simps crying about how Elric ripped off Witcher.
@@snubbles9991 funny I haven't seen no Fans of the Witcher even brings the guy name up maybe you fans are the problem.
@@antoniobrown247 you just proved my point.
I love the Witcher but he's definitely a product plagiarism same as Batman.
Oh man don’t even get me started on batman and the punisher.
You know batman had his first apperance in 1939 and the punisher had his in 1974?
lynxi life the shadow appeared in 1930
@@Calypso694 i know, but isnt it about batman riping of punisher? Maybe i misread somthing
lynxi life huh? No punisher premiered way later. Batman is a rip off of the shadow through and through. Same villains here and there. Same backstory almost T for T. Only difference is shadow kills. Batman killed early on before DC changed that up. Punisher takes some stuff from shadow also.
You're not wrong. The makers of Star Wars sued the makers of Battlestar Galactica in the 70's, but claim total ignorance of Dune and swear that some gobbledygook about Joseph Campbell totally justifies everything. Games Workshop sues people all the time, but apparently see nothing wrong with cribbing from everyone and everything. It's hard to read Michael Moorcock's books about eternal champions of Law and Chaos without seeing that play out in 'Nemesis the Warlock' and 'Warhammer 40k.' D&D got into some legal trouble with the Tolkien estate over words like "Hobbit", but apparently "Halfling" is fair game. The list goes on and on.
Also, fans of every franchise will go to war over stuff like this. The older I get, the more I see how certain creative figureheads skirt legality (and good taste) to secure copyrights and merchandising claims.
You exclusively focused on the similarities, and disregarded all the differences, and many of these similarities are just general fantasy tropes (many of which Elric created, fair enough.) The witcher has several other sources too, the overall plot has absolutely nothing to do with Elric, character development is completely different, and so on. No one creates in a vacuum, did Tolkien plagiarise the Eddas, he literally copied and pasted their WHOLE list of dwarf names... Anyhow, if you dig any author's, ANY author's, influences, there will be a point in which they will seem unoriginal, this may be disapointing, but it only means that writing is actual work, you are actually building something out of stuff, it is time we ditch all that romantic exagerations of artistic developments. And yes, some pieces are more original than others, and there is a point in which one crosses into plagiarism, I just think your analysis was superficial.
Agreed. I’ve said in other comments I’d do this over again in more detail and longer but Razorfist best me to it (link in the comments) and does a better job. And if Tolkien copies dwarf names yeah he did plagiarise. Did he give his source? Good. Check out the other video of you haven’t already.
@@Calypso694 Aesthetics is not plot, you got into that only in the most superficial way. Obviously Elric influenced the Witcher just like like it itself was triggered by LOTR and heavily inspired by Conan (or is Elric plagiarism from Conan because he "gets laid a lot and is cynical mercenary that, among other things, dabbels into politics and kills monsters?) The plotline of the two are nothing alike, the plot function of several of these "similarities" are, as I said, either general fantasy tropes (magical weapons, seriously?) or directly inspired but heavily twisted, like the potions. The whole of the political thing is also quite shallow, one is criticising one thing, the other is criticising the opposite, are they copying from each other, no. Some of Tolkien's sources are spurious and he would deny them, others are open, straight out copying names is a heavy blow on one renowed for linguistic originality (and consistency for that matter, because Gandalf is in that dwarf list of names and, well...) And you won't find anywhere any quote saying "oh yeah, I just took the Eddas' list and copied it whole" even though norse mythology in general was acknowledged to be one of his main sources. Several of the characteristics you pointed out of Elric are also in the Kalevala, the author recognized it, as he did several other pieces of inspiration, including the aesthetics of his character. In the Republic, we have a story about a magic ring that grants invisibility, corrupts the owner and is a direct symbol for power, Tolkien did not acknowledged that directly, as far as I know.
All to say, considering the major differences in plot and the wide variety of sources the Witcher draws from, and the nature of creative writing, it is my opinion that it is not plagirism per se, the isnpiration is there, but in between plagiarism and hoenst inspiration there are several shades of pastiche. It is easy to attack a writer, Conan is just pastiche out of Lovecraft and Lovecraft is just pastiche out of Dunsany, see? I did it too.
All in all, I don't mean to antagonize at all, it is an amazing topic and I appreciate the video, but I will have to heavily protest the hard sentence of plagiarism, the influence IS there, and the author would do well to acknowledge it, but plagiarising is pretty serious and such accusations don't do any good.
Euclides Ribeiro Geralt doesn’t even have a magic sword. The silver sword is a game only thing, in the books at one point he’s given a sword by another character, not a magical sword mind you, just an expensive, well crafted sword which he uses for the rest of the books.
Razorfist sent me.
As was I
Me too!
Me three! Er, four.
This guy only points out their similarities and ignores the vast differences. Both are great.
Well it is about the plagiarism part
Geralt of river isn't mentioned as a sorcerer and wheres the elric counterpart of jaskier?
In the comments
I guess if you try hard to slap on the Eternal Champion template, Jaskier would be analoguous to Moonglum
Here because of Razorfist. very good video from you here!
Thank you. I’ll eventually make a follow up someday.
Damn what's that song at 12:00
Really loud!its from the Witcher 3 soundtrack. Silver for monsters I think.
@@Calypso694 thanks! I'll also note that sadly it seems in a literary perspective Elrics novels are really expensive due to the collectors market. I'd know considering I've been trying to get them for a couple of years now and even try to scour used book stores in hopes to find them. The comics are good adaptations surely but as far as direct sources its.. just hard and can hurt it's publicity as now moorecocks writings are considered more occult
Virus Dot EXE oh yeah if you want the original prints pretty pricey! But if you check amazon/eBay for any prints no matter the version I’ve found them pretty cheap.
The way I see this, as a fan of both stories: Sapkowski definitely took HEAVY inspiration, that is absolutely without a question. Some of the similarities are so striking that it's a bit comedic - white wolf, Cymoril/Cirilla, conjunction of the spheres + all the stuff the video mentioned like potions etc. I'm pretty sure that Sapkowski is denying it because Moorcock wanted to sue him in the past and Sap's lawyers told him to keep his mouth shut about his inspiration, just to be sure. Despite that, though, I don't see the Witcher as plagiarism, as it simply does too many things too differently and does a few things that Elric really doesn't (development of characters other than the protagonist, its emphasis on world building and politics, very clever use of fantasy races like dwarves and elves, a very down to earth and naturalist way of describing war and violence and I could go on). I personally have no problem with the fact that one awesome piece of fantasy caused the creation of another. It's the way how many awesome pieces of literature were created throughout history (look no further than Shakespeare and most of his plays).
TLDR: Witcher is obviously heavily inspired by Elric but IMO the stories are too different to be considered plagiarism.
ruclips.net/video/TkiP64adGjY/видео.html This video suggests otherwise.
@@fangzification Thanks, I'll give it a watch.
Moorcock actually doesn’t want to sue. Sapkowski literally has no good reason for admitting he stole from Elric.
How to make an easy potions to the fives Guild only uses potions when he's getting ready for a battle with a monster. White wolf is an extremely generic badass nickname.
@Only Death it's not plagiarism since it's a generic baddass fantasy name like the Black Swordsman. Does that mean is the author of Berserk can sue is the author of SAO because he also gave his character the nickname of 'The Black Swordsman that is the main character in a fantasy world'?
That potion comparison was weird. Elric needs potions to stay functional and Gerard IN GAMES quaffs potions during battles to stay alive simply because health potions are a common video game mechanic. Used in countles games, Zelda, about every CRGB game etc.
In Witcher I rather try to block, parry and counter instead.
In books Gerard uses small vial concoctions when he is knowingly preparing to fight a monster or some other encounter where he can temporarily enhance his night vision or some other ability that is useful with that environment or monster.
So here the comparison was made between a book Elric and video game Gerard which was contrived.
Video game Gerard can also eat during fights to give him health, if I remember correctly. That would be a pretty unique ability to almost any character outside video games even in fiction.
True looking back on this id change some things. I was playing the games then and god dammit the combat
@@Calypso694 I actually learned to like it of become a better at it. Constantly moving, jumping and parrying around the enemies.
But yeah, for most parts your observations were accurate.
I actually did not remember Elrics love interest, but I also have not read all the novels. They were hard to come by in my local library. I should start to hunt them out for my own collection, maybe there is a good quality audio books available.
Tube Torpedo for the Elric books I’ve only found the first two on an app that connects your libraries called Overdrive. All the Witcher books are in audio. Check out Razorfists video (unless you are coming from there) he goes over everything in way more detail.
@@Calypso694 I come from Razorfist, but I watched your first. Probably check his video tomorrow.
I have all the Witcher books that has been published in English as physical copies, but I have only read all the Elric books I could find at the time about ~15-20 years ago, albeit a one-two-few times.
But it's still a long time ago. I have enjoyed both of those wolves.
In the end the atmosphere is quite different, Elric is bit more high fantasy setting.
But not surprisingly they are much harder to come by (e.g. Audible - nothing) especially when e.g. all the neat and handy collections that would have various novels/stories in a same book, seemed to be somewhat random collections when I last looked the options.
And it's not that there has been lack of books to read in the meantime.
But this was a good reminder to make a new dive to see what I can find.
I'd love to read it again and like I said, I have only read some of the stories. The so called ending I'm familiar with but I think I've missed many of the first novels.
But thanks for the advice.
@@tubetorpedo You have yet to address that you are incorrect in regards to Elric needing the potions to function. The only time Elric needed potions to function were from prequels written after his initial debut and prior to him obtaining Stormbringer after which he has no need to rely on potions for survival.
Dude look up the words ”Archetype”, ”trope” and ”cliché” in the dictionary. Being derivative and plagiarising isn’t the same thing 🤦♂️ Knowing about influence is the basics of any litterature analysis. If you seriously think Elric was the first gruff, bitter, sarcastic, worn, travelling, potion-using sellsword with a runic sword then you are wrong. It’s an archetype and one that clearly started with Aragorn in lord of the rings.
If anything Geralt has more in common with Drizzt Du’orden and Conan the barbarian than he has with Elric. Using the same archetype but then writing a different story isn’t plagiarising if it was every author post the 1800-hundreds would be guilty.
And before anybody calls me a witcher fanboy, then no I think the series is pretty meh, same as Elric.
I’m going to assume you skimmed through this video or didn’t even watch it where I clearly point out jarring similarities or “inspirations” as others call it. You might not like either character but if you do your own research you might come out with the same conclusion.
The Necrolibriatas Watched the video and what I’m saying is that those vague similarities are no more similair than similarities between other characters of the same archetype 😑 It’ almost like you just skimmed the comment rather than doing actual research and coming up with an actual answer?
You really ought to look up what plagiarising actually is before making a video like this 👌🏻 Because eventhough you define it at the beginning you still don’t seem to understand what it means.
2 smiley studios sure thing. If I don’t know what it means(even though I clearly defined its multiple uses in the start) then I guess I’m wrong and all the oddly vague yet so similar similarities are just tropes use throughout fiction. Yup. I mean after all, it’s just a character.
@Only Death it's a video of a guy screaming about surface-level similarities and blowing them out of proportion. Elric and Dale would have no similarities what's the weather besides surface-level ones. Elric is white as a Crayola crayon while garelt only gets that way when he takes potions when he's about to fight a monster.
@Only Death didn't he try to sue before but absolutely nothing came of it? Seems to me that the plagiarism bullshit is just that, bullshit.
Awesome video my dude, also razor sent me. This is seriously good work
Thanks!
Razorfist brought me here. Great work sir.
RazorFist laid it down. Yes, it is.
"The creation of Elric was directly taken from a few sources."
Well that kind of undermines this whole discussion, doesn't it?
Not really. The discussion is that "is the witcher plagiarism". Moorcock outright admits he lifted things directly while Sapkowski denies it even though the overwhelmingly damming evidence clearly says otherwise. If you are gonna steal, steal from the best. But at least admit that you did. The REAL issue I have and that loads of others have, is that sapkowski stole someone's work and built a media empire off of it. If anyone else had done it people would be up in arms demanding justice that they give whoever Credit and a share of all the money they'd gained.
The similarities arent the problem the fact that Sapkowski vehemently denies them and passes of the witcher as entirely original is.
Witcher: can I copy your homework?
Elric: sure, just change it a little so it doesn't look like I let you copy
Witcher:
wasn't The WItcher already written before there was a Polish edition of Elric tho?
That doesn't necessarily stop the author from getting a non-Polish edition tho, and I don't know what languages the author can read anyways.
@@aarondubourg3706 the first witcher short story "The Witcher" that spakowski wrote and published was in 1986. The first polish edition of Elric was in 1985. And contraband was easy enough to smuggle.
CDPR started the company from smuggled in US games and pirating others to translate to then sell funny enough.
Would you people please watch the video before commenting? What this is suggesting is more then simply the adoption of tropes.
Plagerism.
That's exactly what it is suggesting. Nothing more than surface-level similarities at the absolute most
@@mariobadia4553 What? You can disagree but the video here is saying that it is plagiarism. It's said right there at 24:20.
@@mariobadia4553 Aye, before you acount for themes, world building elements, plot points, magic systems, names and iconography.
....Oh wait.
Here's the thing; some of the most popular characters in history have been blatent works of plagerism. Batman and the Shadow for example. But that doesn't stop them from being works in their own right that over time have evolved into something distinct. The problem here is that the author of the Witcher (like the creators of the golden age Batman) has refused to grow a pair a admit that Geralt is in essence a Polish version of Elric.
@@Mister-Thirteen which Elric took from many many other stories. Elric didn't come up with any of this bullshit. Bucky in Infinity War has the name 'white wolf' and so many many many many many many many many many many Characters. Should Marvel and DC be sued for using the Multiverse concept because Elric did it?
besides the guy who writes the elric books is a fucking left-wing nut that pretty much insulted JRR Tolkien by saying Lord of the Rings glorified war( the same man that served in World War 1).
Wow, so you're telling me that if a character is blond/ashen haired and wields a sword then he MUST have copied Elric of Melnibone
watch the rest
Witcher fanboys be like:
@@aagh8714 That's the argument calypso makes in the summary, so...
Well this happen all the time hell Jon snow is called the white wolf is and isn't Aragorn a plagiarism of King Arthur so ya similarities between characters are common
Indeed it does. But it’s more than just similarities in this case.
That's cause Moorcock and Martin are friends
Im here because of razorfist
This is ridiculous. Michael Moorcock didn't even think there was plagiarism until fans started claiming it was and even though Moorcock was aware of Andrej's Witcher series, he didn't call plagiarism until said fans convinced him there was plagiarism.
"the Empire of Novigrad"
It's like you aren't even trying.
You know there is Novigrad in real life Croatia?
@@jindrichdolejs623 in REAL LIFE
@@jindrichdolejs623 yo what?
@@jindrichdolejs623 There is several Novigrads in Croatia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novigrad
It just means "New City" in pretty much every Slavic language.
never in my life i've encountered a rune sword slavic myth
probably the only sword i know is kladenets, but's not a proper name
it just means that the sword is looted from aтн treasure event and it's really good at what it does
it's basically used as "and then our hero have found a macguffin sword" it's used as "you guys know how these things go hero needs a weapon so he just found a magic weapon doesn't matter now back to the story"
runes are a norse thing
You do know that they shared borders, fought each other and Poland exist because of the German peoples? To stop the Germanic invasions the first Ruler of Poland Mieszko the 1st converted to Christianity and united the local tribes, his daughter became a Norse Queen, his son the first King of Poland (who where supposed to Have a magical Sword (in the link bellow).
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szczerbiec
I am not 100% sure this plagiarism theory Sticks.
I am gonna finish the video as I have not watched much of it yet.
@@henriqueribeiro8167
yet that's not a fictional sword it's not runic and it's from 13 century
@@tsartomato it's based on a myth though.
I first heard of Elric in Marvel's run of Conan during the 80s. I didn't know he had an extensive back story.
Total rip-off of Elric of Melnibone in my opinion.
It's funny how Sapkowski has never been fond of the games and tv show, he says they are not true representations of his creation
I guess he wanted them to plagiarise his work more directly lol
He didn't like polish TV series and movie adaptation, which have some good acting and music but is poorly made.
heard he liked the games first
he started to hate them, when they got more popular
he even sued CD-Project Red cause they made Gwent
wonder when he gets mad on the Netflixshow
Fun fact, Hawkwind is less famous than their bassist. Said bassist was Lemmy Killmister, nurture lead singer if Moterhead
yup yup! If i recall the name Motorhead comes from a Hawkwind song of the same name and it was Lemmy paying respect in that way by using it.
i like the fact that both lemmy and alan moore are friends to michael moorcock
@@Calypso694i always thought they were on bad terms, he and hawkwind. and i find fun that he went from a space psychedelic prog rock band to "arguably" an hard 'n'heavy band that greatly inspired both speed and thrash metal (even if motorhead didn't consider themselves metal)
@@FutureHH hawkwind is such a good friggin band
its amazing how this is coming out now...I knew this back in 00'
I didn’t become wise to the Witcher until the first game(being American and all) and I first heard about moorcock way back in like 02? But didn’t read the series until 2014/2015. Funny enough my relation to Elric comes from all of the other things inspired by him like legacy of kain and DND stuff etc.
@@Calypso694 Legacy of kain is a great game. That imo paid homage to Moorcrock. Witcher is just blatant thievery. I'm glad people like you are shedding light on this. I swear if I gotta correct onw more 19 yo fanboy Imma cry haha
You got a sub my friend keep it up
My favorite part is that The Witcher 3 is the most loved version of The Witcher which is funny since he's the most removed version prior to the TV show.
Is anyone gonna point out that Guts has just as much in common with Elric? Or that you could read Drizzt as a subversion of Elric? Sailor On The Seas of Fate deals with alot interdimensional travel, heroes from other worlds and time...Is the Wheel of Time also a rip off of Elric? Maybe fantasy as a genre just touches on similar themes and tropes, like ALL genres do.
True. All fantasy and every genre touches and always will scrape against others. But the difference here is that 1. None of those “tropes or archetypes” were popular and I mean really popular until Moorcock and Elric and the Eternal Champions .
2. You gotta start somewhere and where is that some? With Michael moorcock.
Big difference between being a trope of a character type and actually being the same exact character ie Geralt is Elric. Shit just look at the clusterfuck that is Cyberpunk. If the Philip K Dick estate and Gibson wanted to sue everyone for plagiarism they could and they’d have the right to. Gibsons lawyers wanted him to sue Shadowrun but he said “nah”
Guts isn't close to elric hes more of a conan fhe barbarian inspired character
@@Miuranger1 So's Elric, if aiming at a deliberate subversion of tropes.
Acually (as Kentaro Miura claimed on his interviews) Elric was a huge inspiration for Berserk!!
Start: Eh. They both sound pretty damn generic imo.
Later: So did he really have to give him white hair?
Do you even know why either of them have white hair?
@@TheTundraTerror Because the writers decided they did. You can cite inuniverse magical reasons, but that is the only actual reason.
So what. The Targaryens from GoT are much much much more ripped off from the Melniboneans, right down to the white hair, big black sword, and royals ruling the world from the backs of dragons. Rhaegar Targaryen is Elric-Lite.
Difference is George RR Martin and Michael Moorcock are buddies, and GRRM has done more to market Elric in his interviews than Moorcock himself. Whatever the Polish guys name is has done quite the opposite, despite Witcher being a literal work of plagiarism.
@@finismalorum9746 - Yes, you're correct. Still, the oc is absolutely right. The Valyrians / Targs ARE nothing but a case of blatant plagiarism. Who cares if Martin has thrown Moorcock some bones?! Effing nobody.
@@saymyname2417 They most certainly used The Melnibonéans as inspiration, but as I said before they are friends and George RR Martin has always told people where the inspiration comes from. The Pole has never named Moorecock as an inspiration, let alone mention his name. He also has a habit of getting verbally aggressive when confronted with the facts. The man is a hack, that wrote some decent novels, and has coasted of the fame of the games for the past 15 years.
@@finismalorum9746 - Martin may have mentioned his source of inspiration but that doesn't change the fact that he was FAR MORE than just inspired by the Melnibonéans. And a thank you is a nice gesture - but nothing more.
Martin has made considerably more green than Moorcock. What about shoving a bit over to the heirs of his source?! Plus, not too many know about this and thus, credit Martin for it. So...
As for Sapkowsky, yes, you are right. He, too plagiarized Moorcock and to a FAR GREATER extend than Martin! And never admitted to it. Thing is that 1985 nobody would have thought the collapse of the iron curtain possible and so the Pole just went ahead, copied and claimed everything for himself thinking nobody would ever know, especially not those in Eastern Europe 😂🤣.
I guess years after the Wall had fallen he both lacked the courage and the wisdom to confess his theft and then there were the games... I don't like this man and this blatant case of plagiarism is just one reason.
Isn't it striking that both Sapkowsky and Martin have really nothing else of greatness than that which they plagiarized... 😏😜?!
Greetings and have a blessed Easter time if you celebrate it and a beautiful prolonged weekend if you don't!
i'm trying to get some of these points into 1d4chan's entry on The Witcher
Started watching this. Googled "the witcher netflix is a mess". First link is a video from the same guy of the vid I'm watching with the title as my google query. I hate coincidences.
Plagerism and Homage normally spit in each other's face.
Like yeah Tragic Whitehaired dude with a special sword who slays monsters, Elric is the blue print, and the author of the witcher was the architect who said "Aight lets change some shit."
Dude, your sound range is way to high. I can't heard you speak, or the transition scene blow out my speakers. Please level out the sound.
What exactly is the source/sources on Sapkowski's refusal to admit the Elric inspiration? I know, i know, i can just look it up but the thing is i'm not going to read articles upon articles or watch interviews upon interviews.
As a side note i still don't get it man; still liking The Witcher when you belief it's plagiarism. I'm still not sure what to think of it but if i did believe, if for example a book i read was a work of plagiarism i'd do my best to sell it of or get my money back.
@@scouttf2244 I’m working on a follow up very slowly. There’s a bunch of RUclips interviews of his to watch.
As far as staying away from the Witcher some do out of principal which is good and others like me are content with both. It’s a shame Elric is this forgotten hero but in another universe he got a video game first instead of the Witcher and that propelled him to the moon again.
Unfortunately, Elric's show was canceled because it was "too close to the Witcher." Give me a fucking break. 😤
Sigh.
11:59 fucking Witcher music jump scare my hands were fully occupied and I could not save myself 💀💀
Come to think of it, Anomander Rake in the Malazan series may have been inspired by Elric as well.
Don’t forget about Visigoth’s song “Steel and Silver”
Never use low res images in a video again.
Ah another man of culture 👌
26:24
"Warhammer are simple thieves.
I mean they just don't steal from me, they steal from everybody.
So as far as I'm concerned that's simple theft, it's commercial theft."
- Michael Moorcock
They say that some writers are actually channeling actual hero's stories from other times and dimensions. I think this could possibly be true and the "Eternal Champion" is actually one soul incarnating as he walks on the Hero's Journey. Elric, Hawkmoon, Geralt, Paul from Dune and even Thor.
You have lost your damn mind if you aren’t trolling lol if you are trolling though, kudos
Is Paul an Albino?
@@rawrbeez6625 eh Doesn’t seem that far fetch in my books, he could be right for all we know
@@herbseinburg449 I smoke a lot of weed too man but you should cut back a smidge xD
@@rawrbeez6625 but what if though
who was Skeletor inspired by Elric
Just curious if you actually contacted a lawyer before you made this video.
No but that’s be a great idea for a follow up sometime. Wonder if it would cost anything?
Interesting video. Elric is definitely a possible inspiration for Sapkowski's Geralt. From the surface it may look like plagiarism but there are too many differences. You can say the same for Drizzt Do'Urden, while similar but vastly different.
Geralt was never royalty, never got with his cousin and wasn't a sellsword. In fact, Geralt kept stating in books that he was never a sellsword even when rich and powerful people kept trying to egg him on. He always stated that he was a monster hunter and only killed humans in self-defense or to protect others. Geralt is also a mutant which is the reason why he ended being albino.
If Elric and Geralt would've met, they probably wouldn't like each other because of their political views.
Yeah, Elric is a monster in some instances
@@whyonthefall5373 Yeah, Geralt in the books and video games always states that he tries to never fall back on basic human instincts alone. Basically fight or flight instincts and tries his best to control both his instincts and emotions. Even when he's doped on potions to enhance his abilities. There are very rare moments he goes berserk but ends up hating himself because he felt like a monster. It's that whole "would you become a monster to fight monsters?" kind of story telling.
I feel left out because Elric's books seem so cool and I want to read it before it gets popular.
Geralt isn't albino. He just has white hair.
@@donjwolf in the books geralt is described as being corpse like in paleness. Over the course of the games, his skin tone changed
@@donjwolf The books always described Geralt as having "pale" or "white" skin. He's literally a white guy. In the Last Wish, he mentions to Lola about his loss of pigmentation on skin and hair because of the constant experiments done to him. That's pretty much albino, except his eyes aren't red.
Conan of Cimmeria - warrior and swordmaster roaming the land, killing monsters and mages also shagging lots of princesses and being involved in politics
(Robert E. Howard - 1930s)
Aragorn - swordmaster roaming the land, killing monsters, being involved in politics also shagging one princess (at least I think he did...)
(Tolkien - 1950s)
Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser - warrior and mage roaming tha land killing monsters etc.....
(
Fritz Leiber - 1960s)
Kane - inhumanly skilled swordmaster roaming the land killing monsters, being involved in politics and shagging ladys
(Karl Wagner - 1970s)
And that is just a tip of an iceberg.
Hundreds of fantasy heroes and stories meet your conditions of plagiarism. Or maybe it's not plagiarism. Maybe it's just one of very popular tropes of fantasy genre.
Insted of looking into non existing problems try to be more positive mate.
Yes tropes indeed set by all of them, moorcock turned it on it’s head and that’s what people liked.
Fafhrd & Gray Mouser -- first story 1939. Nights Black Agents. Skafloc. Elric. The honourable list goes on but only one is accused of plagiarism. Hmmmm....
As with others, I was sent here by Razorfist. Great video man, tho audio spikes too high during the Witcher 3 cenematic sequence.
Yeah i wish RUclips studio had an option to fix it. Unless I’m missing something? Glad you liked the video.
Interesting. I didn't even know about Elric. I feel bad now. Also a bit paranoid, been working on a story (story driven video game) for 5 years. It is inspired by Conker Bad fur day, Zelda and Banjo & Kazooie. But it is it's own thing, own story, music, characters etc
It's one thing to be inspired, but this scared me a bit.
That sounds awesome dude. Subbed. There’s one game I’ve had my eye on that’s inspired by Spyro(started as a fan sequel originally but had to change it) where you play as a bat called Zera Myths Awaken. Note your influences and you’ll be fine.
@@Calypso694 Haha, nice!! Thanks a lot, buddy. Great vid. I subbed back.
Thats also funny, we somewhat had a similar point during development, only with Conker!
NoLoot Studios more Conker or anything influenced by it is ALWAYS a good thing :)
@@Calypso694 Aye, I could not agree more. Keep up the work, buddy
I was just on a feed about witchers latest series bombing n the comments were full of people from east europe claiming its all about their culture, but when i played the game which i enjoyed i just assumed it was a rip off of just about every monster etc depicted in western movies/books etc, i didnt mind, after seeing the delusional comments before i decided to google if it was ripped off n it led me here, i didnt know the half of it lol, even the protagonist was ripped off ffs.
Except you forget that: One, in the core pentalogy Geralt isn't actually a 'wandering sellsword' but actually a father looking for his (adoptive) daughter in a world ravaged by war. He is only mercenary in the first two books. Did you even read the novels?
Two, Trial of the Grasses is a series of magic-scientific experiments bordering on child torture meant to show how corrupt witcher order became to sustain itself, not a fucking spiritual quest which is based on shamanic spirit quests - they're literally nothing alike aside from the word 'trial'.
Three, "Witchers don't have emotions" is actually just a stereotype based on negative perception of witchers by the people, all witchers we see are shown to clearly have normal human emotions, so that's a lie.
Four, Geralt isn't an albino, like you said, albinism is TOTAL loss of pigmentation - Geralt only lost pigmentation in his hair, his skin and eyes are intact - your 'white skin' is straight up a lie, both in books, comics, series and games Geralt has always been depicted with regular pink skin. Though to be fair, Sapkowski admits that physical appearance of Geralt was inspired by Elric, openly naming his inspirations - just like Moorcock openly named HIS inspirations.
Five, magic potions are an extremely old fantasy trope, dating back to medieval times, and you can find them in pocket of pretty much every adventurer in every modern fantasy story, and claiming Moorcock invented them is pathetically laughable. Did every game with healing potions also rip off Moorcock? For fucks sake. Oh, and using games is cheating since we're talking about Sapkowski's work, don't we?
Six, Elric's sword is a powerful sentient magical artifact with its own mind. Geralt's rune sword is a very sharp piece of steel that cuts things well, and happens to be engraved with runes that are NOT magical, and are literally just regular non-magical writing - if I recall, Geralt's sword "mystic" inscription literally says "down to all the motherfuckers". The runes definitely AREN'T enchanted in the actual books, again - using games is cheating, because they weren't made by Sapkowski. Also rune swords weren't invented by Moorcock, but by Norse sagas.
Seven "each character is in love with a black haired sorceress" I'm starting to get pissed off now dude. Moorcock invented HAIR COLORS now. For fucks sake. Like, Geralt is also in love with a red-haired sorceress (Triss Merigold) which part you conveniently ignore in your 'analysis'.
Eight, literally 90% of medieval fantasy books take place in a world that is a sword and sorcery take on Europe. Parts of Middle Earth are a sword and sorcery take on Europe. Setting of A Song of Fire and Ice is a sword and sorcery take on Europe. For love of God, just stop.
I'm starting to doubt if you're either intentionally nitpicking to spread misinformation for clicks, or if you just never read the novel pentalogy. Fuck this stupid video, and fuck every moron who will now endlessly parrot that Witcher is a copy of Elric without reading either.
A for effort. Feel free to read my pinned comment and check out the video linked that goes into much more elaborate details than I did and does a better job. I’ve told others of course I’d go back and do this again BUT plenty of into on the net to get you going. So it’s feel redundant to me. Have fun.
@@Calypso694 The linked video by Rageaholic you mean? I'm debunking it right now, doesn't fare much better and is also based on poor knowledge of Witcher novels.
Or if you mean something else, I sadly can't see your pinned comment for some reason.
shinobody no that’s the one I mean. Look I hate to break it to you and all the other fans who have a hard for sapkowski. The guy is a plagiarist. I pointed this out in my video that one of (and the version of plagiarism I’m using here) is that regardless if you give credit to whoever you stole from or not, if a majority of “your work” is someone else’s regardless of the creativities and liberties you went with, it’s still plagiarism. That’s the Witcher. Call them similarity or tropes all you like. Give me the nothing is new under the sun speech all day long. The hard hard fact, is that you can interchangeably take sections of Elric stories, change the names to Geralt etc and they’d still be the same. It would still sound, feel and read like the Witcher, because the Witcher IS Elric. It doesn’t matter that the stories might branch of and be different here and there and with overall plot when the characters, world, themes and ideas, yes certain plot elements as well are all straight up someone else’s. It’s plagiarism. I can create a character call Barry Motter from Brooklyn New York who attends a magical school in the projects. I still just ripped off of Harry Potter. Do I like the Witcher? I do. The games are mildly fun and yes the books are entertaining for the most part, but the character is still plagiarism. No discredit to CDPR I think with what they did with the Witcher and Geralt ALMOST makes him an original character that does fall under the “inspired” category but as for the books? That’s a different story. You think this is bad go ahead and look up batman and the shadow, the phantom and black panther/punisher. Plagiarism is nothing new within any industry. Hell IGN more than a few times straight up plagiarized people and thought they could get away with it.
@@Calypso694 Elric books are actually relatively different from Witcher books, but keep saying what you want. You have no arguments to back up what you say beyond the surface stuff.
Also Batman was a Shadow ripoff for first like, three months, before Bill Finger found a completely original direction for him, with Commissioner Gordon being his ally, Batman never killing, never using guns, Robin, Batmobile, Batsignal and cast of supervillains like Dr Death, Hugo Strange, Joker and Catwoman - none of which are present in Shadow stories.
shinobody Sure buddy.
In Hawkmoon there is a conjunction of a million spheres where monsters from different realms can travel to yours....hrmm...sounds familiar.
Plagiarism is a serious accusation.
And there is a big difference between merely being unoriginal and stealing outright.
I think there are enough differences between Elric and Geralt to make Witcher it's own, albeit mediocre, story.
I think what gets me about people crying about the Witcher being the probable memetic offspring of Elric is the hypocrisy of it all. Elric isn't all that original either. Elric as a character and his saga was also made by taking ideas from already existing fantasy stories, mythologies and even pulp literature like Conan. And it may just be that Geralt is the more fully baked product at the end of the day.
Moorcock never denied he was inpired by others, unlike Saphowski.
@@flameriderful Which changes nothing about the fact of the matter.
@@furtivedolus2504 Just pointed out he is open about his stuff, while sapkowski is trying to hide it, for obvious reasons I might add. No problem with taking from someone just be honest about it, especially when you take so much it's borderline plagiarism. That's what got people upset.
Moorcock doesnt try to pass off his work as purely original. Sapkowski does, therein lies the difference.
razor brought me here. another hidden gem of a channel :)
Do you like the games?
i do. i liked 2 mostly playing 3 now. its ok so far. 1 i liked the story but gameplay feels dated and was a bit bland buti was rushing and i feel that game needs to played at a slow pace really taking it in
@@Calypso694 yea the first game is very outdated, the second is still good imo and the third is amazing imo. as for the elric author i saw the man states that he has no problem with people being inspired by his works and writing based upon them, so is the whole controversy with the witcher author just based on principles? or is there another layer to it?
@@Calypso694 btw i never read the books lol, i only played the games and i liked them alot. i could care less about the books tbh xD i just find reading books boring im being honest, idc if you look down on me for saying this.
Jack Jager a lot of it is principles I find. It’s the principle he ripped off and made an empire out of another persons work. That’s the issue really. If he admitted it it’s whatever but he hasn’t and probably won’t.
Jack Jager books are awesome. You should try and read. Or listen to audiobooks maybe.