The Witcher and Plagiarism
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- Опубликовано: 31 июл 2024
- with the Witcher hitting Netflix soon
and Elric of Melnibone also getting a series by Amazon, i figure its time i throw my two cents in this debate.
Is The Witcher Plagiarism?
Timestamps:
0:00 - Introduction
0:57 - Part 1 introduction to Elric of Melnibone
2:59 - Defition of Plagiarism
4:26 - Part 2 Michael Moorcock Background
8:11 - Part 3 Michael Moorcock Continued
11:54 Part 4 Andrzej Sapkowski Background
16:13 Part 5 Compare and Contrast Elric of Melnibone Vs The Witcher Geralt
24:20 The Verdict
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Развлечения
![The Interesting Origins of Author Andrzej Sapkowski [Biography]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2demQMDpwEk/mqdefault.jpg)
Here is a much more detailed and lengthy video on the same subject: ruclips.net/video/TkiP64adGjY/видео.html
Also due to the overwhelming negative response (lol of course it’s expected) I highly recommend everyone to research on their own. Think of this video as an introduction. Plenty of good videos out there and articles on this subject by other RUclipsrs and bloggers.
apologies for the sound issues. It sounded fine when editing and testing before upload but idk. Apologies.
A couple of things I left out in the Compare and Contrast section simply for time:
1. Each character has a Best Friend Sidekick- Elric and Geralt each travel their respective worlds with a friend(s). In Elrics case it’s Moonglum. Moonglum is a womanizing alcoholic comedic idiot Rogue. Who love women just as much as his axes. They travel together often or stumble into each other. Elric also has Wheldrake a..:yup you guessed it- comedic Bard sidekick for an adventure or two.
Geralt has Dandilion Primarily. A womanizing alcoholic comedic idiot Bard who loves his women just as much as poetry. Geralt and him travel often together or yup you guessed it...bump into each other.
2. Each universe runs on Multiverse Theory system. (Michael Moorock first introduced The Multiverse in his story The Sundered Worlds in 1963. And of course would use it throughout his work.)
They each have a (and I’m not even kidding here, it’s the exact same name) Conjunction of The Spheres event that kicks off their respective universes. The conjunction is a cataclysmic event in which The Multiverses collide invading each other. Either destroying and resetting the universes or having creatures invade. The conjunction happens every million years or something.
Now I’m mostly talking about the books here but if you believe the Witcher games are canon (technically yes seeing as how CDPR owns the rights) then the conjunction can happen again. Although in Sapkowski books the conjunction was a one time thing. In Moorcocka work the conjunction is an event that happens every so often.
3. You’ll notice they are both called The White Wolf....
4. I also find it odd that Book Geralt is quite thin for being a professional monster killer don’t you? Almost like he still needs potions...he also gets his ass handed to him more than once in the books.
5. (someone pointed this out in a thread I forgot to throw in also) Destiny, Fate- Law Chaos Balance: Each series has incredibly strong themes of that throughout. I mention it passing by in the video.
Elric seems to talk about it every chapter or so especially in the later part of the series.
The Witcher blabs about it from page 1 to the ending of the series in Lady of The Lake.
They are each (whether they believe it or not) bound by fate and deny or accept it or are reluctant.
Now I get it- Fate and Destiny is a common thing among the fantasy genre. But again, when your albino mercenary spellsword blabs about it constantly...
The Witcher games are a different story for another time. Same with Game of Thrones.
Finally for some reason the text in this video keeps messing up even after testing and it worked fine before rendering.
Anyways I’ve exhausted myself on this subject I think but feel free to keep the debate going and be kind and courteous.
I think some of your points are very good and some are a bit flawed in the arguments but good job.
>You’ll notice they are both called The White Wolf....
Do you even know why Geralt is called the "white wolf"? Part of it is the hair which was the results of experiments done on him as a child until Elric who was born with it. The other part being the fact that we went to the School of the Wolf.
> I also find it odd that Book Geralt is quite thin for being a professional monster killer don’t you?
Yes, because Geralt is a direct repudiation of characters like Conan and a reflection of historical knights being rather svelte with a wasp-thin waste. Look up paints from the era and you will see mean who are the polar opposite of what we image a knight to be.
> (someone pointed this out in a thread I forgot to throw in also) Destiny, Fate- Law Chaos Balance: Each series has incredibly strong themes of that throughout. I mention it passing by in the video.
These are minor themes, at best. There's an optional conversation about them in the first GAME that is more food for thought. It's something that has no bearing on the plot. While I'm at it, the ideas of chaos/balance was pioneered by Empedocles in 5th century BC.
@@TheTundraTerror 1. He also slaughters entire villages further adding To the monicker. He also fights like a wolf on the battlefield. Sounds a lot like another albino I know from the 60s.
2. Geralt is thin because Elric was and Geralt is a rip off of that character. Kind of reaching with that medieval art take. Good idea though. Sorry if Geralt is so good with a sword and badass monster slayer no excuse for him to be thin. He also dresses in black.
3. Law and chaos and balance are literally the main themes carried across the entire Witcher book series and it’s more than just one conversation in the first game. It’s in 2 and 3 also.
@@Calypso694 1. I would like to point out that White Wolf or the Wolf Totem is a really old tradition in Slavic culture. According to the old pagan religion Dajbog (Dazbog, one of high deities) transformed into white wolf. This was often recreated by Slavic warriors by wearing wolf skin. If I am not mistaken Saxo Gramaticus wrote about it. In some Slavic traditions Slavs are descendants of wolves. Wolves play a huge role in Slavic culture in general. People were often named Vuk or Volk (depending on language/dialect, meaning wolf). Some Roman legions wore wolf skin but for a different reason and with no cultural similarity. Similar can be found later with Germanic people, where the most famous example would be Mozart - Wolfgang Amadeus, where Wolfgang means wolf's tracks, and he got the name to fear off disease and death since children died often at the time.
Similar Wolf Totem and White Wolf traditions can be found among Mongols and Vikings as well as North American natives and probably many other nations. According to all ancient beliefs involving wolves and white wolves they can be boiled down to four things: wolves have incredible stamina, are powerful animals and once in a fight they don't back down, they are cooperative and lead by an alpha. One doesn't have to dig much to find historical figures compared to or named Wolf or White Wolf in various cultures.
This being said, any use of a name White Wolf and comparison to wolf or wolves generally can not be stated as being plagiarism since it exists for centuries, even millennia. It is almost the same as with calling someone The Great, which some kings/emperors were called. Also, this does not mean the nick name White Wolf wasn't stolen from Elric, it means that the very nick name is not original in the first place.
2. "Do your research!" Okay, I did! "IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT 19TH CENTURY ROMANTICISM HAD AND HAS A CULTURAL INFLUENCE ON POLAND!"
3. No. No, it's not. Maybe Destiny is one of them, but Discrimination is a much bigger themes. Witchers being massive outcasts and, thought the series, we see that reflected in the way they are persevered and treated. Is there anything like that in Elric? Also, where exactly do we see the balance of order and chaos being played out?
@@TheTundraTerror 1. The white wolf as a nickname in popular fiction as far as I know stemmed from Michael Moorcock and Elric in the 1960s. IE way before Geralt. If it was used before that in another story by another author within contemporary fiction I honestly can’t find a source. Thanks Ron that history lesson.
2. It doesn’t matter.
3. Law and chaos and balance are central themes within the Witcher books and throughout the games each character or villain representing each alignment. Geralt is the balance here. Nilfgsrd and to an extent the wild hunt are the chaos and the law would be I suppose Radovid. Hell the symbols the chaos Star and law arrow are even used as their sigils. Another thing that you can go and throw a credit to moorcock.
It’s more about discrimination? Ok. Elric as a melbibone is part of a gated and feared race and nobody like him and they fear him. Kind of like a group of Witcher and a Witcher I also know of.
I’m done. I hate to break it to you AGAIN but sapkowski plagiarized anything you try and come up with was already done within in the Elric books and eternal champion series.
Enjoy reading the Elric books. Have a good day.
And then came GRRM and made a whole race of dragon riding Elrics with doomed, tragic lives, magical powers (slightly) and epic stories.
Actually GRRM is a buddy of Moorecock. They even slip several more references to Elric in the show on his behalf.
Martin’s loaded with hidden homages to other authors. One of the houses in Westeros is named “House Jordayne of the Tor” with a lord named “Trebor” and the sigil of a golden quill.
If that’s not a homage to anything in the Fantasy genre, I don’t know what is.
@@killianhackenschmidt4987 I had to think about that for a minute (I suck at the obvious), Robert (Trebor) Jordan (Jordayne) who wrote the Wheel of Time series and a few Conan novels his publisher was Tor.
after solving that I can go to bed now. 'night.
Am I the only one who thinks the artwork from earlier science fiction and fantasy comics where more imaginative then comic art of today?
I too have a soft spot for those artworks; they’re a league of their own!
Today's sci-fi tries to gather the mainstream audience, then gives what people already expects. There's exception, of course, but most of it is variations of what we already know.
Yesterday's sci-fi... I won't say they didn't care about the popular success, but they were trying to create a new audience instead of keeping the old one. Leading to some visual innovation (for example H.R. Geiger for Alien. Moebius, with the Incal. Mezières for Valerian and Laureline, a very likely strong inspiration for Star Wars)
Elric going from a great emperor to a sellsword is a very interesting concept.
It's like the opposite of the 'Rags to Riches' trope that most games, books, and films constantly do.
Yes, he was supposed to be the opposite of Conan the Barbarian.
Wait till you see his sword
@@JonS
Oh I see.
As a writer myself there is a difference from being inspired by and out right ripping off entire plot arcs. Eargon is clearly inspired by star wars but it is different enough that it can stand on its own
I have to get around to reading those. Been putting them off for years
@@Calypso694 the first book is okay but the rest just slow down completely. There is one that is literally nothing but the main character forging a sword which I give props to for being realistic but it completely halts the overall plot of the books
Not having read either of the books, doesn't the video tell us that the initial character creation is the only thing that MAY have been copied, with the stories explicitely being different?
@@Alexander_Kale Yeah that's pretty much what happened due to the way first witcher short story came to be. It was spur of the moment thing written for fun for a fantasy competition where I assume most other works were fanfics and parodies. It didn't even win the first place but people liked it and wanted more. It wasn't like Sapkowski had some sort of masterplan. He changed the story considerably from that of Elric and made it into his own thing with the later stories and books. I mean honestly, I've read both series and they have very different vibes.
@@LazarKG92 I would assume so. I have looked into this a tiny bit after stumbling upon this video, and I have read Elric described as an "undying elven sorceror Prince and later emperor with drug problems and a mystical sword that eats the souls of his enemies", and the titular Witcher as a " perpetually drunken, promiscuous murder hobo pest exterminator".
Don't get me wrong, I have ordered the first volumes of both series by now, but I am slightly confused here.
"Did any of that sound familiar?" And here I am thinking yah Conan.
Now I'm laughing when at the point in the vid where Elric was intended to be a anti Conan.
Yeah the charchtrr is inverted by he does CONAN like adventures.
the most underrated conan story is people in the dark, the alternate conan lol
"We're not so different, you and I...."
Funny, there's actually a comic where Conan and Elric team up
The empire of novigrad? I think you meant to say Nilfgaard.
Sorry I'm late to the party, but I wouldn't have known about this until Raz0rfist pointed me your way. Well done!
Same.
I am slightly late... The Lord if Razors had much to say, but lead me here once more.
I now humbly accept your wisdom...
That happened to me too.
Welcome to the club.
Guess I'm sixth in the club.
By stating this was an influence for Legacy of Kain, I'm sold.
The thing I want to know is if Michael Moorcock got the name "The White Wolf" from the Robert E. Howard El Borak short story "Son of the White Wolf". Considering he conceived of Elric as an Anti-Conan it wouldn't surprise me if he came across that story and just liked the name
The name seems to haave been used in fiction and folklore before but Moorcock used it to describe an albino warrior and the name probably just came out of that.
Probably, Moorcock is a big REH fan from what I can tell.
isnt Borak like 19 century?
White wolf is just one of many nicknames for Elric and really pretty common one for a warrior. Lone wolf, white wolf, great wolf, whatever descriptor + predator. White lion, White tiger, nothing too specific.
Elric was intended to be anti-Tolkien. Unlike LOTR, the Elric saga, in part, was counter culture 1960s, anti-establishment and anti-British Empire building, according to Moorcock. And he happily acknowledged Elric the anti-hero followed in the wake of characters created by sword and sorcery pioneer Robert E. Howard (Conan the Barbarian) as well as Fritz Lieber's Fahfrd and the Gray Mouser series of books. Moorcock looked to both Lieber and Howard as his natural sword and sorcery antecedents..
In theory Elric was intended (and requested by his editor) to be an anti-Conan. good ol' Moorcock was kind of "anti"-tolkien back in the day because of various reasons both literally and political but he always said his "hate" against tolkien was overstated (even if he still baffled by some of his (tolkien's) "nuttier" fans and excessive prominence.) I'm a Moorcock fan myself and read quite a number of his more s&s pulpy books stories. I also partially read a few of more avant garde new wave stuff but for now i'm focusing on the books that, as far as i understand, lead to the end of the eternal champion affair. The end of Hawkmoon series and The Dragon In The Sword that is a mainly a Erekose story and was back in the eighties the "culmination" the cycle (i think it's no more).
@@FutureHH Well, from what I recall it was Moorcock's anti-British Empire (or 1960s-era anti-Establishment sentiment) that propelled his works of that time period. It ran counter to Tolkien's pro-Empire stance. It influenced a good deal of Elric of Melniboné, along with works of popular sci-fi and fantasy writers of that time.
Yes, I too read most of Moorcock's eternal champion series. I think Elric and Erekose were my favs though I also like the Corum series too.
@@kamuelalee I agree. he was, is, more rebellious and unconventional than tolkien. ironically they share a trait. they were in their specific way anarchist.
@@FutureHH Agreed too. I think Moorcock did play up the anarchist, and certainly did so through his Elric stories.
Cheers!
Geralt isn't exceptional among Withers in that he has emotions. It's explained later that Witchers have emotions, just don't show them and help spread the myth that they don't - so people won't try to persuade them to work for free.
Who cares when the entire witcher series is a copy and past of elric of melnibone? Not just in look or personality, the entire damn thing
@@jonathansoko1085 lol no
@@ajuc005 You know how i know you have neither read the books of either series? Because of your comments. Its undeniable dude, and im a witcher fan. Denying does no one favors.
@@jonathansoko1085 You're not only not a Witcher fan, you have not read any of the books. That's the only way you can so arrogantly make a false claim about them being "copy-pasted".
Answer me this, then: in the Witcher series, what are the equivalents to Melnibone, Xiombarg, Cymoril, Yrkoon, Mournblade and Arioch? How does Geralt obtain the Black Blade, and what is it's actual name in the series? What deity does Geralt use in his iconic battlecry? Which deities or demons does Geralt summon during the course of the series? On the converse side, when does Elric invoke the Law of Surprise and who is his Child of Destiny, and what is the name of the knight Elric frees from the Hedgehog Curse?
@@TheFifthHorseman_ Wrong, im a massive fan and own SEVERAL sets of hte books. Get over it kiddo.
Well I think it's obvious: Geralt in an eternal champion apparently xD
One thing on the emotions though is the fact that the Witcher’s being emotionless is more of a misconception and we see multiple Witcher show emotion in Khal Morren
yes well aware I goofed on some things by now lol TRUST ME :)
What in the fuck is Khal morren?
@@techmode9716 The long-lost brother of Khal Drogo
@@kamiilmroz7428 whot?
@@kamiilmroz7428 There aren't a group of people who hate the Polish based in America. There are people of every country that don't like how Polish people they meet/observe/know are assholes. Pretty sure that's not a coordinated effort to hate them, just a strong coincidence.
Isn't Michael Moorcock know as the guy who claimed jrr Tolkien was glorifying war in the lord of the rings.
Jrr Tolkien a man who fought in the battle of the somme.
Moorcock was a hippie. He met Tolkien once or twice and Tolkien hurt his feelings or something. Never liked him since after those meetings.
@@Calypso694 lol I like to imagine Grrm having a similar reaction.
Timothy Dexter ah. Idk every interview I’ve seen he in some way bashed lotr a bit. It is possible to line but not like an author?
@@Calypso694 He was also very butthurt about John Norman's Chronicles of Gor because it "disrespects women", and openly used the "I'm not for censorship but..." argument. He is the definition of a fantasy puritan and picks fights with anyone that doesn't promote his idea of what fantasy writers should promote.
Andrzej Sapkowski is by far worse. He all but directly called video gaming community idiots at a convention once, because he was butthurt that The Witcher games were more popular than his novels and he made a bad choice to request to be paid in advance instead of by percentage of The Witcher sales. Then he sued CD Projekt using a polish law that was clearly not intended for situations such as his but was vague enough for him to use.
Both of the writers are very smug, snobbish, and vain, but one of them is at least original.
STOP IT! Check your facts before you accuse. This is stuff spread by crazed JRRT fans. Context. Context Context, Sergeant
Hmmmm also sounds like Drizzit front the Dark Elf books I grew up on. Makes me want to read Elric even more since so many people rip it off :/
i would suggest so. last time i checked the books were pretty cheap on amazon. THAT or the audio books on youtube that you can easily find.
I've seen accusations that Drizzit is even more of a blatant rip off of Elric than Geralt.
@@TheAutistWhisperer he is, but at lease the author is upfront about the inspuration for drizzit.
Drizzt is in the same type of character but he avoids being effectively the same character by either subverting or avoiding the elements that are copied wholesale from Elric to Geralt.
@Bruno Beautiful if I remember correctly, Wulfgar was supposed to be the main character. So many people wanted to know more about Drizzt after the Crystal Shard novel, that he became the main character, and Wulfgar became a side character.
21:27 You don't need potions to fight human enemies in the games. I dispatch human enemies just fine when I play Geralt.
I barely used decoctions or potions on death march; there's no real point especially early game.
You either win fights without getting hit, or you die from 2 scratches
@Killerbug7 0 I need potions for the tougher monsters, guess not everyone's as badass as you.
In the novels, both Elric and Geralt rely on potions for enhanced combat ability.
The games have arguably worked to minimize the similarities, to the point that there are lines like Geralt saying he'd be a veiny morsel to some monsters, but him being a hulking musled brute in that version, and Geralt getting more and more buff as each game came out.
The dual wielding is also from the games, to make Geralt a little more distinctive.
@@hariman7727 Elric relies on potions to *survive* not just to being able to fight...
@@TheBayzent and Gerald would be dead a hundred times over at minimum without the enhanced combat prowess of the potions he drinks.
Same coin, opposite side.
I read the first Elric book long before I even heard about the existance of Geralt. It was a fascinating tale, and I admit I was sold at the time. However, when I read about the witcher, I never even made a link between the two. In fact, I find both of these worlds so vastly different, that I cannot even begin to understand your claim. Just because the main protagenists have simularities, doesn't mean the are the same, that one writer stole the idea from the other.
How many books are there about wizards, are they all stolen from Tolkien? How many science fiction heroes have been on the moon, are they all stolen from Wells? How many stories are there about kings and knights, are they all stolen from the King Arthur myth? No, ofcourse not. Some aren't even inspired by them. There is a lot of lore and myth out trere in the world. Yes sometimes people hear about something and give it another twist, I won't deny that. But claiming an entire universe has been stolen, just because the protagonists share simular traits like white hair and drinking potions? I mean, Geralt is no megaglomaniac like Elric. Geralt is a "nobody" basicly, Elric is an emperor. Geralts main goal is slaying monsters and stay out of politics if possible. Elric slays armies and conquers countries, he IS politics. There, just a couple of difference.
If you really want to see simularities, you will find them even in the most differing subjects. but this always goes at the cost of objectivity. You need to look at the whole. Yes there are simularities, but nothing more than a couple of features doesn't mean it has all been stolen, at best it is inspired, but even that goes pretty far imo.
Main lore/plot element of both is called "conjunction of spheres", yeaaaaah. To not sound like a colossal prick, my point is, the main plot element is called the same thing and is essentially the same, that being interdimensional collision causing problems (if different ways yes but if it's called the same and very similar).
Which is why plagiarism was never brought on my the writers estate
JoeyPsych To be honest with you a lot of authors steal. I just like the way the Witcher plays out. The savior of the world has been stored so many times. LOL
Fernando Reimpell Bravo I apologize, I I really don’t care about the subject of if anything was stolen or borrowed, I just like the Witcher series.
JoeyPsych It all depends on how you look at it. I believe they borrow the wizards so much is written about wizards it’s hard to step on other people stuff in their wizards
This thing about emotions and Witchers is a lie they used to protect themselves at first, but then was used as a weapon of prejudice against them, the other witchers are also emotional. Great Vid btw, still watching.
He goofed up, the witchers aren't emotionless, they just have a dampened emotional response.
Idk - I've heard a few arguments like this. I've read the first book of Witcher shorts, and they're really not at all like the Elric stories, which I've read many times - I've got the entire DAW collection, and I'm a huge fan - not as big a fan of Geralt. Geralt is more of a monster hunter, while Elric is a 'doomed' adventurer who ends up getting swept up in various scenarios for various reasons - not necessarily to hunt monsters, but more bc of the war of Chaos and Law.
All literature is built upon the literature that came before, right? Someone said this, I'm not sure who. How many versions of Frankenstein or Dracula have we gotten? How many Cthulhu horror stories have we seen?
Did you know there's a short story about a world where mutants exist, and the government is trying to hunt them down and exterminate them? It's a Philip K Dick short called The Golden Man - released in the 1950s, nearly a decade before Stan Lee and Jack Kirby released Uncanny X-Men. It's a really great short story - you can find it for free online, but I first read it in the Philip K Dick Reader, which has most of his most popular works.
Now, do I think Lee and Kirby stole from Dick's Golden Man? Idk - maybe one of them read the story and was inspired - the mutants in the Golden Man don't wear costumes or anything, but the themes are VERY similar to the X-books - the government is afraid that mutants will take over and become the predominant species on Earth. It's so similar it's funny, but I think the stories that spawned from those early comics are truly their own thing.
I think it's okay to retell stories in your own way - Moorcock did a lot of 'borrowing' with many of his stories, often just retelling or reworking old myths. Stephen King's Salem's Lot is just a retelling of Dracula in small-town Maine (his short Jerusalem's Lot, a prequel to Salem's Lot, is even told in epistolary form like Dracula, but is more of a Lovecraftian story than a simple vampire story - worth the read also).
I just think there are a myriad of tropes in whatever genre you choose to work in, be it sci-fi, fantasy, horror, etc., and all those tropes are up for grabs. There's a fine line between 'inspired by' and 'plagiarized'. I have no doubt that both Sapkowski and CD Project Red were very aware of Elric of Melnibone, but I think it tows the line fairly well - if you've read the stories in The Last Wish, it really doesn't feel like the heavy-metal-fantasy-type stories Moorcock wrote of Elric, imo - I also think the Moorcock stories are far superior, but it doesn't have its own popular gaming franchise, so I guess it's not as 'cool' to like.
Either way, good video. Any chance I get to hear someone talk about Elric is worth it
So youu didnt read all the Witcher books then? The whole point here is that Sapkowski denies at every turn the similarities and tries to pass off his ideas as purely original. Not that he was inspired by it. And by the way the threshold for plagiarism is as small as a similar name and appearance.
Isnt every book just a rip-off of the dictionary?
😂😂😂
I've been sayin it for years
There is inspiration/homages like Eye of the World (but that breaks off half way by the end and later books) being an intentional Tolkien-esque book than there is blatant plagiarism like Sword of Shannara (which breaks up by the end of the third and last entry of the original trilogy).
Man, the ratio on this video tells me a ton of people never even clicked play.
Nice way to mark off criticism of a video ya got there....
I watched the video and its obvious the youtuber has not read through both characters, or has some funky memory.
Rokiriko by the time I was wrapping this up I mentally exhausted myself so I fully admit some points I make aren’t great or outwright terrible.
@@Calypso694 then u should correct it
@MrNahual2099 only people that use terms like "Fanboy" are emotionally invested in fictional world's enough to act like a little prick on the internet...
I was gonna mention warhammer but it seems you included that as well. The dark elves are basically carbon copies of the melniboneans. and the whole chaos gods thing.
Warhammer rips off everyone to the point that no one cares though.
While I agree with some points, I have to disagree with the point that themes are the same. They are quite the opposite in my opinion. Witcher is a careful deconstruction of Aurthorian myths, legends and slavic fairytales. Elric is an example of one of the first grimdark-ish fantasies but it very much plays into what are now considered tropes (but quite original for it's time).
@EccentricSage still doesn't change the fact that they are vastly different, claiming that they are thematicaly the same is just plain wrong
@Timothy Dexter Samaritan? Lmfao Arthurian with a lot of it's tropes is based off the Irish, and in turn the broader Celtic mythologies and the way of life. Excalibur is the Sword of Destiny mentioned frequently in the legends of Lú, the round table and Arthur himself being based off the Irish Fionn too. Fuck off with that 'point blank Samaritan myth', study the Irish mythos and you'll see that's a load of crap.
Elric came before the time of grim dark...back in the day, it was just called dark fantasy or sword and sorcery.
@@nenadmilovanovic5271 completely agreed, I never would have made the link between the two. One is dark, a "punch in the face", the other is humorous and about the importance of family. But, the philosophical discussions about Chaos and Law in the witcher is a bit on the nose
That's setting not themes.
Well, I take the liberty to diagree with you. First of all, you seem to mix the books and the games, which I think is a serious mistake. The books were created by Andrzej Sapkowski, who did not take part in CD Projekt's "Witcher's" production. On the contrary, he distanced from it clearly saying that his story is in the books and the games are complete non-canon. There are details that may be bringing the witcher closer to Elric, but they were introduced in the games, so it is not fair to accuse Sapkowski of plagiarism, because of those. Below I refer to the particular parts of your video, I hope this will make you look a bit differently on some things.
1. Both Elric and Geralt experienced trials and ...that's where any similarity ends: at the word 'trials' as their nature was quite different in either case. Elric's trials were a kind of educational journey, definitely of mental nature, while Geralt's were a magical-herbal treatment, a procedure that altered his body: gave him super-keen senses, ability to control emotions (it did not removed them!) and his body (e.g. slower their pulse), and also made him sterile. We have mind's journey vs magical procedure on the body - not quite the same.
2. As for emotions Moorcock and Sapkowski depict completely opposite situations. In Elric's reality, deprived of feelings, he is an emotional exception. Geralt can suppress expressing emotions, which adds to other people seeing him as a cold-blooded killing machine, but he has feeling just like anybody else in his world. Was he exceptional among witchers? - absolutely NOT. It is said in the novels that witchers were perceived as emotionless, because they could hide their emotions, and they did so, which is not surprising considering people's attitude towards them. But Vesemir was Geralt's father figure, Coen befriended Ciri and often played with her in Kaer Morhen, Lambert did not like Triss - feelings, feelings all the way. And for Geralt's moody and brooding nature - this argument for plagiarism is really far-fetched. He is a typical romanticistic character: an individualist, outsider, unaccepted by the society, who fights for the good, even when it seems futile, who longs for a better but unreal world, whose love to Yen brings a lot of pain and is full of obstacles, who dwells in deliberations about his feelings and emotions and the surrounding world. If you understand how enormous influence the 19th century romanticism had on Polish culture (novels, poetry, movies, stage dramas etc.), and still has, you could see that Sapkowski's inspirations were rather there than in Moorcocks's novels. Also, in some aspects of his characteristics Geralt also resembles Raymond Chandler's private eye Philip Marlowe.
3. Elric was born an albino, Geralt got his white hair during magical treatments at young age that he underwent after passing the Trial of the Grasses. But Geralt WAS NOT an albino. Yes, some people may have called him that, but that's because of his white hair - rather unusual for someone of his age - and pale (not Elric's purely white) skin. In "The Witcher" (Sapkowski's short story) his face becomes chalk-white after he drinks a potion, which means it wasn't white before that. Also, because of the treatments he would never blush. Elric's eyes were crimson red, while Geralt's were cat-like and dark, as Sapkowski describes them. He does not mention the exact color, but it is suggested in the novels that different potions can give Geralt's eyes different colors. Elric is very tall and slender, Geralt is tall with fit, but not overmuscled body.
So, we have a white-haired skinny albino with milky-white skin and red eyes vs white-haired pale guy with fit body and dark, cat-like eyes - they are similar only thanks to white hair, but visually not the same person at all.
4. Potions are quite common in fantasy, aren't they? Just like magic. It is hard to acknowledge the use of potions as plagiarism, especially that their function is quite different. Elric takes them to stay alive, he is on constant potions therapy, one could say. For Geralt they are a weapon of choice, enhancing his senses and motility when it is required for the fight. Also: different potions for different enemy and fight conditions. Treatment vs weapon of choice - quite opposite.
One more thing: yes, you need potions for Geralt to stay alive IN THE GAME, but that is the in-game mechanics, not Sapkowski's writing.
5. Moorcock's rune sword, Stormbringer, is a very important element of the story, even a supporting character to the main hero, Elric. It is sentient, it communicates with its wielder, it has magical power of enhancing Elric's abilities and it feeds on the souls of the enemies. Geralt's rune sword was ...a sword with runes. Called "silver sword" it was actually a steel one, but plated with silver, for which some monsters were vulnerable. There were no magic, at least in the books, it was a very fine weapon crafted by dwarven armorers with a runic inscription. But the main difference to Elric's sword is that it is merely a witcher's tool for the job, a unique one, but it is not anything besides that. It is more like Tolkien's swords e.g. Andúril than Moorcock's Stormbringer and in "The Lord of the Rings" I would see the inspiration for Sapkowski, as well as for countless other fantasy authors.
6. Dark-haired sorceress being a proof for plagiarism? Seriously? Do you really think that Sapkowski said to himself: Elric has black haired fiancee, so Geralt needs one too. ;-) First of all, black and white are kind of natural association. :-) Second: how many hair colors are there, four (blonde, brown, red, black... OK, white too)? Third: although Yen was his true love, he was also in relationships with women of other hair colors e.g. red (Triss) or blonde (Essi). I think this is a coincidental similarity, nothing more. And the fact that she is a sorceress? Yes, it is a bit cliche, but would it be that good for the story if she was, I don't know, a needlewoman?
Sad Gargoyle I have read all of the Witcher books and played all the games. I have read none of the Elric books. Technically I don’t know what I’m talking about LOL. I just really like the Witcher series. I probably would’ve not of liked Elric series. I’m not saying it’s bad. I just like wicher version a lot.
about runes on the Geralt's sword. It was a very "magic" runes, in old dwarf language, and they meant "death to sonsofbitches" (it's not my plagiatrism, Its a © from the witcher books!)
I agree with you on most parts but the impression I get when I read The Witcher novels is that the emotionless Witcher thing is an unfounded stereotype. Geralt is one of the more empathetic and articulate than most royalty. He experiences loneliness and despair to the point he laments to his horse how lucky he is not to feel emotion or he'd be wrecked right about now lol.
Sad Gargoyle your comment is the best and realest comment in the whole comment section. Some of these dumbasses can't think for shit. Hell I didn't know who the other guy was til I seen people trash talking geralt. Honestly whatever the other guy name is story isn't as fascinating as the Witcher. You made some great points that others will not like.
Elric is the true White Wolf
@Gill-Ford, The Lightning What ever souls Stormbringer doesn't take, I dedicate to you ARIOCH !
Razorfist brought me here. Great work sir.
I first heard of Elric in Marvel's run of Conan during the 80s. I didn't know he had an extensive back story.
Im here because of razorfist
TL;DR: There’s enough difference between the two works that The Witcher is not, in legal terms, plagiarism.
Flip that around bud.
@@Calypso694 lmao witcher fanboys are fucking delusional dude 🤭😂
@@Calypso694 if it's true for 1 then it is true for the other...
@@R1ck_Ryder I wonder if you walk around in your daily life talking shit to random people who could beat your ass over something as infintile as a book series?
@Ring-a-ding-ding baby thanks for the tag in brochacho
So aside from the differences between elric and Geralt, what else about these series are the similar? I mean aside from the typical fantasy tropes what else did Andrzej inspire/steal his world from?
its amazing how this is coming out now...I knew this back in 00'
I didn’t become wise to the Witcher until the first game(being American and all) and I first heard about moorcock way back in like 02? But didn’t read the series until 2014/2015. Funny enough my relation to Elric comes from all of the other things inspired by him like legacy of kain and DND stuff etc.
@@Calypso694 Legacy of kain is a great game. That imo paid homage to Moorcrock. Witcher is just blatant thievery. I'm glad people like you are shedding light on this. I swear if I gotta correct onw more 19 yo fanboy Imma cry haha
You got a sub my friend keep it up
7:12 Stormbringer does not talk - except at the very end of the saga.
Correct. Stormbringer has actual dialogue at the end. However throughout the series Elric frequently talks to stormbringer and it murmurs and moans back in response and other times. I consider that a talking sword.
Talking at the end of the saga sounds like talking to me.
@@Jotari You can't stress it man. They are Polish. They think feeding cows chocolate is how you get chocolate milk.
@@dragoneye6229 What's with the hostility lol. Wouldn't it be smarter to attack the radical side of the fanbase rather than the whole country? Us younger generations really aren't any different from other countries (I do admit that the boomers are insufferable but that goes for pretty much everywhere)
Razorfist sent me.
As was I
Me too!
Me three! Er, four.
You make some good points overall but I disagree that it's plagiarism. Sure, Elric was a big inspiration but a lot of the features you mentioned are fairly generic. Falling in love with a strong-willed, raven-haired woman sorceress? That's not specific to Elric, that's just male fantasy. See Aragorn in LOTR. Taking potions for speed and strength? That's a fantasy staple. Having a runed sword? The witchers' swords aren't powerful because they have runes, it's because they're silver and super sharp. I can't remember in the books if they even had runes, but if they did they din't play a major part in their power at all. Being albino, and a mercenary, and nonchalant? Sure that's taken from Elric. But Geralt 100% has emotions, that's what makes the stories to good imho. It's about him as a person. Also, dealing with politics and philosophy in their weird way, that's also pretty generic to any good writing.
Responding to your other points in the comments:
- The Witcher universe doesn't really have a multiverse, but rather different times and spaces.
- Having a comedic sidekick is also a staple fantasy trope, see Don Quixote.
- Conjunction ideas are also pretty commonly used, off the top of my head I can think of it being used in the Thor 2 movie (no further comment on whether that''s good or bad).
- Copying the name White Wolf - I'll give you that. So did GRRM though.
So yes, there are a LOT of similarities and Sapkowski 110% pulled a lot from Elric. But I don't think it reaches the threshold of plagiarism. A lot of the similarities are classic fantasy tropes. Either way, great video and well done.
Thank you for actually reading the comments before jumping in to comment. Much appreciated lol
I think it wouldn't be such a big controversy if Sapkowski would actually acknowledge Moorcock and the Elric Saga as an inspiration. Instead, he refuses to and gets pissed at anyone who makes a comparison, insisting that Moorcock had no effect on the Witcher series. Which is a little hard to swallow, especially since The Last Wish was first published at the same time that Sapkowski was translating Elric into Polish.
@@upperlander9282 Having read some Moorcock, I'm not convinced it did noticeably influence Sapkowski. Sure, every book Sapkowski read probably influenced him subliminally, but I certainly don't think he ripped off Moorcock or intentionally copied parts. I don't think he was any more influenced by Moorcock than Tolkein. However, I've only read a little bit of Moorcock, I could be wrong. Either way, I enjoyed both authors a bunch and I'm grateful this debate showed me new material : )
I’d say it’s a loving parody of not only Elric but fantasy in general. The entire thing about the series is that it takes classic fantasy tropes (if not straight up fairy tales) and gives them the baggage of our world like systemic racism, how the wealthy use prejudice to further their goals, the horrors of colonialism, and the trauma of abduction. Geralt is basically a working class bloke parody of Elric as while Elric was this scholarly prince that just had empathy unlike the rest of his people, geralt has to learn to break the cycle of abuse the Witcher industry is built on by raising ciri without the horrific experiments and general bs he and his brothers in arms were put through and embracing the emotions they were always forced to suppress. He also realizes that neutrality or “both sides bad” is a bunch of holier than though bullshit, especially when it comes to people like Renfri or the Scoi’atelle who are simply striking back at a society that has thoroughly fucked them over
Most books are started from the idea of a reader saying "I think it would've been cool if Gandalf became evil, if sam had have destroyed the one ring, what if Aragorn was the Maine character, what if Aragorn had a dragon, I wish Legolas was the Maine character Etc. all fantasy is inspired and yes sometimes it can be downright incestyious or even very close to plagiarism the first Wheel Of Time books is very heavily inspired by Fellowship Of The ring but about half way through the book you see it's going for a different outcome and vibe but the inspiration is definitely still there.
But most fantasy thats heavily Tolkien inspired at least changes most other things.
Here because of Razorfist. very good video from you here!
Thank you. I’ll eventually make a follow up someday.
The problem I have with people complaining that the Witcher is ripping off of Elric is that we're pretending Elric itself was a completely original work. It's not. It drew from ideas and stories that existed before it just like the Witcher did. So... how can we condemn the Witcher and NOT Elric?
Elric's author admits to what he copies. The Witcher's does not.
@@RedCornix Then the issue isn't copying and that means people like Razorfist can pipe down about that?
@@furtivedolus2504 but that very thing was razorfist's point, so why would he pipe down about it?
@@RedCornix Razorfist doesn't even believe copyright should ever expire.
@@furtivedolus2504 irrelevant even if true.
Dude look up the words ”Archetype”, ”trope” and ”cliché” in the dictionary. Being derivative and plagiarising isn’t the same thing 🤦♂️ Knowing about influence is the basics of any litterature analysis. If you seriously think Elric was the first gruff, bitter, sarcastic, worn, travelling, potion-using sellsword with a runic sword then you are wrong. It’s an archetype and one that clearly started with Aragorn in lord of the rings.
If anything Geralt has more in common with Drizzt Du’orden and Conan the barbarian than he has with Elric. Using the same archetype but then writing a different story isn’t plagiarising if it was every author post the 1800-hundreds would be guilty.
And before anybody calls me a witcher fanboy, then no I think the series is pretty meh, same as Elric.
I’m going to assume you skimmed through this video or didn’t even watch it where I clearly point out jarring similarities or “inspirations” as others call it. You might not like either character but if you do your own research you might come out with the same conclusion.
The Necrolibriatas Watched the video and what I’m saying is that those vague similarities are no more similair than similarities between other characters of the same archetype 😑 It’ almost like you just skimmed the comment rather than doing actual research and coming up with an actual answer?
You really ought to look up what plagiarising actually is before making a video like this 👌🏻 Because eventhough you define it at the beginning you still don’t seem to understand what it means.
2 smiley studios sure thing. If I don’t know what it means(even though I clearly defined its multiple uses in the start) then I guess I’m wrong and all the oddly vague yet so similar similarities are just tropes use throughout fiction. Yup. I mean after all, it’s just a character.
@Only Death it's a video of a guy screaming about surface-level similarities and blowing them out of proportion. Elric and Dale would have no similarities what's the weather besides surface-level ones. Elric is white as a Crayola crayon while garelt only gets that way when he takes potions when he's about to fight a monster.
@Only Death didn't he try to sue before but absolutely nothing came of it? Seems to me that the plagiarism bullshit is just that, bullshit.
Awesome video my dude, also razor sent me. This is seriously good work
Thanks!
i'm trying to get some of these points into 1d4chan's entry on The Witcher
There are tons of Elric wannabes in fantasy:
-Arthas from Warcraft
-Kain from Legacy of Kain
-Alucard from Castlevania
-Griffith from Berserk
-Prince Nuada from Hellboy 2
-Nekron from Fire and Ice
It's just that Sapkowski's Geralt is so blatant it's hard not to notice.
The way I see this, as a fan of both stories: Sapkowski definitely took HEAVY inspiration, that is absolutely without a question. Some of the similarities are so striking that it's a bit comedic - white wolf, Cymoril/Cirilla, conjunction of the spheres + all the stuff the video mentioned like potions etc. I'm pretty sure that Sapkowski is denying it because Moorcock wanted to sue him in the past and Sap's lawyers told him to keep his mouth shut about his inspiration, just to be sure. Despite that, though, I don't see the Witcher as plagiarism, as it simply does too many things too differently and does a few things that Elric really doesn't (development of characters other than the protagonist, its emphasis on world building and politics, very clever use of fantasy races like dwarves and elves, a very down to earth and naturalist way of describing war and violence and I could go on). I personally have no problem with the fact that one awesome piece of fantasy caused the creation of another. It's the way how many awesome pieces of literature were created throughout history (look no further than Shakespeare and most of his plays).
TLDR: Witcher is obviously heavily inspired by Elric but IMO the stories are too different to be considered plagiarism.
ruclips.net/video/TkiP64adGjY/видео.html This video suggests otherwise.
@@fangzification Thanks, I'll give it a watch.
Moorcock actually doesn’t want to sue. Sapkowski literally has no good reason for admitting he stole from Elric.
How to make an easy potions to the fives Guild only uses potions when he's getting ready for a battle with a monster. White wolf is an extremely generic badass nickname.
@Only Death it's not plagiarism since it's a generic baddass fantasy name like the Black Swordsman. Does that mean is the author of Berserk can sue is the author of SAO because he also gave his character the nickname of 'The Black Swordsman that is the main character in a fantasy world'?
Thank you for this video!
As with others, I was sent here by Razorfist. Great video man, tho audio spikes too high during the Witcher 3 cenematic sequence.
Yeah i wish RUclips studio had an option to fix it. Unless I’m missing something? Glad you liked the video.
Thanks razor for the plug. Check out his stuff ruclips.net/user/TheRageaholic
never in my life i've encountered a rune sword slavic myth
probably the only sword i know is kladenets, but's not a proper name
it just means that the sword is looted from aтн treasure event and it's really good at what it does
it's basically used as "and then our hero have found a macguffin sword" it's used as "you guys know how these things go hero needs a weapon so he just found a magic weapon doesn't matter now back to the story"
runes are a norse thing
You do know that they shared borders, fought each other and Poland exist because of the German peoples? To stop the Germanic invasions the first Ruler of Poland Mieszko the 1st converted to Christianity and united the local tribes, his daughter became a Norse Queen, his son the first King of Poland (who where supposed to Have a magical Sword (in the link bellow).
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szczerbiec
I am not 100% sure this plagiarism theory Sticks.
I am gonna finish the video as I have not watched much of it yet.
@@henriqueribeiro8167
yet that's not a fictional sword it's not runic and it's from 13 century
@@tsartomato it's based on a myth though.
I have only the read the first Elric story and the first Witcher book, so I'm wondering if someone can tell me what the last ruler of a decaying empire and a genetically modified monster hunter have in common beyond their hair colour.
Because the Elric canon is a mess, and the first book is actually like the fifth in the timeline.
The first published Elric story had him being a mercenary.
@@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384the first short story (1961) it's him trying to reconquer melniboné with the aid of his nation enemies
The guy never expected to be caught, plain and simple, back then nobody thought the bloc would fall and he was just gonna be a local known author. As a translator, he had access to it, nobody else in the area would ever read it due to reasons, and the cover up for it would be at hand.
Come to think of it, Anomander Rake in the Malazan series may have been inspired by Elric as well.
razor brought me here. another hidden gem of a channel :)
My favorite part is that The Witcher 3 is the most loved version of The Witcher which is funny since he's the most removed version prior to the TV show.
12:00 mark massive volume spike that's a bit out of sync with the rest of the video. might want to tone it down a little bit. Shit scared the hell out of me.
You weren't fucking around. It's almost 1am, I'm watching on my phone, and was terrified that I might have woken up my 2 year old in the next room. Listen to this OP, tone that shit down!
That potion comparison was weird. Elric needs potions to stay functional and Gerard IN GAMES quaffs potions during battles to stay alive simply because health potions are a common video game mechanic. Used in countles games, Zelda, about every CRGB game etc.
In Witcher I rather try to block, parry and counter instead.
In books Gerard uses small vial concoctions when he is knowingly preparing to fight a monster or some other encounter where he can temporarily enhance his night vision or some other ability that is useful with that environment or monster.
So here the comparison was made between a book Elric and video game Gerard which was contrived.
Video game Gerard can also eat during fights to give him health, if I remember correctly. That would be a pretty unique ability to almost any character outside video games even in fiction.
True looking back on this id change some things. I was playing the games then and god dammit the combat
@@Calypso694 I actually learned to like it of become a better at it. Constantly moving, jumping and parrying around the enemies.
But yeah, for most parts your observations were accurate.
I actually did not remember Elrics love interest, but I also have not read all the novels. They were hard to come by in my local library. I should start to hunt them out for my own collection, maybe there is a good quality audio books available.
Tube Torpedo for the Elric books I’ve only found the first two on an app that connects your libraries called Overdrive. All the Witcher books are in audio. Check out Razorfists video (unless you are coming from there) he goes over everything in way more detail.
@@Calypso694 I come from Razorfist, but I watched your first. Probably check his video tomorrow.
I have all the Witcher books that has been published in English as physical copies, but I have only read all the Elric books I could find at the time about ~15-20 years ago, albeit a one-two-few times.
But it's still a long time ago. I have enjoyed both of those wolves.
In the end the atmosphere is quite different, Elric is bit more high fantasy setting.
But not surprisingly they are much harder to come by (e.g. Audible - nothing) especially when e.g. all the neat and handy collections that would have various novels/stories in a same book, seemed to be somewhat random collections when I last looked the options.
And it's not that there has been lack of books to read in the meantime.
But this was a good reminder to make a new dive to see what I can find.
I'd love to read it again and like I said, I have only read some of the stories. The so called ending I'm familiar with but I think I've missed many of the first novels.
But thanks for the advice.
@@tubetorpedo You have yet to address that you are incorrect in regards to Elric needing the potions to function. The only time Elric needed potions to function were from prequels written after his initial debut and prior to him obtaining Stormbringer after which he has no need to rely on potions for survival.
Interesting. I didn't even know about Elric. I feel bad now. Also a bit paranoid, been working on a story (story driven video game) for 5 years. It is inspired by Conker Bad fur day, Zelda and Banjo & Kazooie. But it is it's own thing, own story, music, characters etc
It's one thing to be inspired, but this scared me a bit.
That sounds awesome dude. Subbed. There’s one game I’ve had my eye on that’s inspired by Spyro(started as a fan sequel originally but had to change it) where you play as a bat called Zera Myths Awaken. Note your influences and you’ll be fine.
@@Calypso694 Haha, nice!! Thanks a lot, buddy. Great vid. I subbed back.
Thats also funny, we somewhat had a similar point during development, only with Conker!
NoLoot Studios more Conker or anything influenced by it is ALWAYS a good thing :)
@@Calypso694 Aye, I could not agree more. Keep up the work, buddy
I don't think it would even be an issue if the author just said "Yeah I totally ripped off Elric but tried to put my own spin it on it by including polish mythology."
Oh wow... I had no idea... (But also, really want to read Elric now)
Controversy aside, are both series worth reading?
Absolutely
They say that some writers are actually channeling actual hero's stories from other times and dimensions. I think this could possibly be true and the "Eternal Champion" is actually one soul incarnating as he walks on the Hero's Journey. Elric, Hawkmoon, Geralt, Paul from Dune and even Thor.
You have lost your damn mind if you aren’t trolling lol if you are trolling though, kudos
Is Paul an Albino?
@@rawrbeez6625 eh Doesn’t seem that far fetch in my books, he could be right for all we know
@@herbseinburg449 I smoke a lot of weed too man but you should cut back a smidge xD
@@rawrbeez6625 but what if though
You exclusively focused on the similarities, and disregarded all the differences, and many of these similarities are just general fantasy tropes (many of which Elric created, fair enough.) The witcher has several other sources too, the overall plot has absolutely nothing to do with Elric, character development is completely different, and so on. No one creates in a vacuum, did Tolkien plagiarise the Eddas, he literally copied and pasted their WHOLE list of dwarf names... Anyhow, if you dig any author's, ANY author's, influences, there will be a point in which they will seem unoriginal, this may be disapointing, but it only means that writing is actual work, you are actually building something out of stuff, it is time we ditch all that romantic exagerations of artistic developments. And yes, some pieces are more original than others, and there is a point in which one crosses into plagiarism, I just think your analysis was superficial.
Agreed. I’ve said in other comments I’d do this over again in more detail and longer but Razorfist best me to it (link in the comments) and does a better job. And if Tolkien copies dwarf names yeah he did plagiarise. Did he give his source? Good. Check out the other video of you haven’t already.
@@Calypso694 Aesthetics is not plot, you got into that only in the most superficial way. Obviously Elric influenced the Witcher just like like it itself was triggered by LOTR and heavily inspired by Conan (or is Elric plagiarism from Conan because he "gets laid a lot and is cynical mercenary that, among other things, dabbels into politics and kills monsters?) The plotline of the two are nothing alike, the plot function of several of these "similarities" are, as I said, either general fantasy tropes (magical weapons, seriously?) or directly inspired but heavily twisted, like the potions. The whole of the political thing is also quite shallow, one is criticising one thing, the other is criticising the opposite, are they copying from each other, no. Some of Tolkien's sources are spurious and he would deny them, others are open, straight out copying names is a heavy blow on one renowed for linguistic originality (and consistency for that matter, because Gandalf is in that dwarf list of names and, well...) And you won't find anywhere any quote saying "oh yeah, I just took the Eddas' list and copied it whole" even though norse mythology in general was acknowledged to be one of his main sources. Several of the characteristics you pointed out of Elric are also in the Kalevala, the author recognized it, as he did several other pieces of inspiration, including the aesthetics of his character. In the Republic, we have a story about a magic ring that grants invisibility, corrupts the owner and is a direct symbol for power, Tolkien did not acknowledged that directly, as far as I know.
All to say, considering the major differences in plot and the wide variety of sources the Witcher draws from, and the nature of creative writing, it is my opinion that it is not plagirism per se, the isnpiration is there, but in between plagiarism and hoenst inspiration there are several shades of pastiche. It is easy to attack a writer, Conan is just pastiche out of Lovecraft and Lovecraft is just pastiche out of Dunsany, see? I did it too.
All in all, I don't mean to antagonize at all, it is an amazing topic and I appreciate the video, but I will have to heavily protest the hard sentence of plagiarism, the influence IS there, and the author would do well to acknowledge it, but plagiarising is pretty serious and such accusations don't do any good.
Euclides Ribeiro Geralt doesn’t even have a magic sword. The silver sword is a game only thing, in the books at one point he’s given a sword by another character, not a magical sword mind you, just an expensive, well crafted sword which he uses for the rest of the books.
Would you people please watch the video before commenting? What this is suggesting is more then simply the adoption of tropes.
Plagerism.
That's exactly what it is suggesting. Nothing more than surface-level similarities at the absolute most
@@mariobadia4553 What? You can disagree but the video here is saying that it is plagiarism. It's said right there at 24:20.
@@mariobadia4553 Aye, before you acount for themes, world building elements, plot points, magic systems, names and iconography.
....Oh wait.
Here's the thing; some of the most popular characters in history have been blatent works of plagerism. Batman and the Shadow for example. But that doesn't stop them from being works in their own right that over time have evolved into something distinct. The problem here is that the author of the Witcher (like the creators of the golden age Batman) has refused to grow a pair a admit that Geralt is in essence a Polish version of Elric.
@@Mister-Thirteen which Elric took from many many other stories. Elric didn't come up with any of this bullshit. Bucky in Infinity War has the name 'white wolf' and so many many many many many many many many many many Characters. Should Marvel and DC be sued for using the Multiverse concept because Elric did it?
besides the guy who writes the elric books is a fucking left-wing nut that pretty much insulted JRR Tolkien by saying Lord of the Rings glorified war( the same man that served in World War 1).
Dude, your sound range is way to high. I can't heard you speak, or the transition scene blow out my speakers. Please level out the sound.
I would take an adventure with Gerald, Stormbringer is trembling by the thought of sucking out the soul of a Witcher.
By the way, I think of Gerald more of an aspect of the eternal champion. Would make sense, wouldn't it?!
Greetings from the Rubinthrone of Melnibone.
Plagerism and Homage normally spit in each other's face.
Like yeah Tragic Whitehaired dude with a special sword who slays monsters, Elric is the blue print, and the author of the witcher was the architect who said "Aight lets change some shit."
Is anyone gonna point out that Guts has just as much in common with Elric? Or that you could read Drizzt as a subversion of Elric? Sailor On The Seas of Fate deals with alot interdimensional travel, heroes from other worlds and time...Is the Wheel of Time also a rip off of Elric? Maybe fantasy as a genre just touches on similar themes and tropes, like ALL genres do.
True. All fantasy and every genre touches and always will scrape against others. But the difference here is that 1. None of those “tropes or archetypes” were popular and I mean really popular until Moorcock and Elric and the Eternal Champions .
2. You gotta start somewhere and where is that some? With Michael moorcock.
Big difference between being a trope of a character type and actually being the same exact character ie Geralt is Elric. Shit just look at the clusterfuck that is Cyberpunk. If the Philip K Dick estate and Gibson wanted to sue everyone for plagiarism they could and they’d have the right to. Gibsons lawyers wanted him to sue Shadowrun but he said “nah”
Guts isn't close to elric hes more of a conan fhe barbarian inspired character
@@Miuranger1 So's Elric, if aiming at a deliberate subversion of tropes.
Acually (as Kentaro Miura claimed on his interviews) Elric was a huge inspiration for Berserk!!
Razor brought me here, good video
Came here from Razor's link too.
I had no idea this was even a thing until "Proper Bird " did a video on the subject.
I’ll have to look this up. Thanks.
This guy only points out their similarities and ignores the vast differences. Both are great.
Well it is about the plagiarism part
Started watching this. Googled "the witcher netflix is a mess". First link is a video from the same guy of the vid I'm watching with the title as my google query. I hate coincidences.
I remember reading about Elric before Witcher got big, but I had forgotten about him. I only recently came back because I found some other fantasy book. But yeah the albino white haired hero has been down to death in fantasy. I have always found those characters interesting but it is obvious where the inspiration comes from.
In Hawkmoon there is a conjunction of a million spheres where monsters from different realms can travel to yours....hrmm...sounds familiar.
Don’t forget about Visigoth’s song “Steel and Silver”
Start: Eh. They both sound pretty damn generic imo.
Later: So did he really have to give him white hair?
Do you even know why either of them have white hair?
@@TheTundraTerror Because the writers decided they did. You can cite inuniverse magical reasons, but that is the only actual reason.
BLIND GUARDIAN
Could you link some interview where Sapkowski denies being influenced by Elric of Melniboné. I tried to do some digging by myself but I couldn't find anything about it.
, heres an interview he mentions Elric. He also brought it up in Manuscript found in a dragons cave, an essay i beleive on writing. sugarpulp.it/en/26893/
Theres too many things there to be purley inluence. And like i said or Razor or others, if this was any other character in fiction before the contextual time, the lawyers would be out and about.
@@Calypso694 Based on your video, I thought you were suggesting that Sapkowski denied drawing inspiration from Elric of Melniboné, but in this interview he states that he "was utterly enchanted" by various authors, including Moorcock. I was hoping for some explicit denial from his side but I guess I can agree that he could give Moorcock more credit than just mentioning him in some interview.
To make the discussion more interesting, I'll try to be a devil's advocate. Perhaps Sapkowski didn't borrow more from Elric than other sources. For example, Sapkowski in another interview he stated that he relied heavily on Roman Zmorski's "Strzyga". During my brief research, I even came across a Polish article accusing him of plagiarizing this short story. Maybe in his eyes, it doesn't make sense to single out Moorcock's work while he drew just as much (or even more) from other authors. Sapkowski's reluctance to single out Moorcock's work, then, could be seen as a refusal to oversimplify the intricate web of influences that inform his writing.
But to sum up, "The Witcher" seems to me more like an amalgamation of various influences and inspirations than a unique creation as Sapkowski prefers to emphasise. (Or maybe a mashup of so many things is what it makes it unique? 😄)
@@zakrz oh i agree Witcher is a bunch of things all rolled in to one. No doubting that. All the early stories(the best imo) are The Witcher meets Grimm. Its when you really start to look at the finer details and plot points and even conclusions that Elric shows up and is under the serface. Some would call it Subversive Plagiarism or something. Clever.
The similarities arent the problem the fact that Sapkowski vehemently denies them and passes of the witcher as entirely original is.
You make a good argument, but despite you and Razorfist cases, I still cant see the case of plagiarism that cant be just seen as common elements used in fantasy fiction as a whole. But I do thank for introducing me to Elric of Melnibone, something I now want to read for myself.
Really? A white haired albino mercenary nick named the white wolf who uses elemental runes and has lots of sex wasn't enough for you? I didn't even say who I was describing and yet it sounds exactly like both of them...
@@andrewvincent7299 I'm not saying there isn't a lot of similarities between them. Just that white hair, wolf nicknames, and a tendency to shag a lot isn't exactly new ground in stories. Something many writers will borrow from each other, even if their willing to admit or not.
@@patanu I can tell you weren't paying attention to Razors video where he actually lists ALL the white wolfs in fiction and there's only like 8 to 10 things on that list. Most of which are references to Elric. And there is more reasons then that.
One was born the other was created through experiments
Fantasy stories have all the same elements even dark stories are similar
So only the protagonists could be called copies
Both called White Wolf and same personality
Geralt of river isn't mentioned as a sorcerer and wheres the elric counterpart of jaskier?
In the comments
I guess if you try hard to slap on the Eternal Champion template, Jaskier would be analoguous to Moonglum
I loved those Daw covers! My all time favorite fantasy series!
If you want a more nuanced video about the topic...watch the one done by Proper bird.
For us to accuse them of this we need to accuse every sci fi movie about a cyber world, or robot AI like Terminator and so on for copying I Robot, The neuromancer and so on. It won't happen but it's all true. Elric and the Eternal Champion books was my obsession as a teenager in the 80's. I know him and his alternate hero's well. I never really thought of it much in the games accept to note he had similarities with the white hair and blah blah. However, being so used to seeing movies, very very popular ones like The Matrix and Terminator take so well from Asimov, Heinlein and lets not forget Star Wars and the Herberts Dune books, I just am pretty jaded and honestly The Witcher has it's own personality in such a way that I stopped caring very quickly. The witcher does not have nearly the power or deep meaning in comparison to Elric. Elric and the Eternal Champion is massive. Every iteration of the hero is part of this complex universe. In fact four of them meet in book 3? I believe in each series. Corum, Elric, Erikose and Dorian Hawkmoon I believe. I honestly can't remember. But each book in their own series we get that same story in the eyes of that hero. Insanely difficult and brilliant. Elric was a damned anti hero. Eternally. Not Geralt. His damnation or gifts are similar to Dragon Age where they pick a person to be a Grey Warden. He's picked as a child and he lives longer but that's about it. Elric was a super power that held the balance, or not of the multiverse.
Generations apart, it's a bit hard to fight for them cause the public mostly just eat it all up and would even say at some point if they played a good Elric game or saw a good Elric movie would think maybe even Elric was a rip off of the Witcher. Just like when "I Robot" came out. No one really cared. They'd seen it all before so many times they were not told or really aware of all the films that they enjoyed so much were rip offs of the others.....
In some way or form you COULD accuse everything of plagiarism but that would get very tiring. The Elric series amazon was working on got canceled because “it’s too similar to the Witcher”...give me a break. As far as the matrix goes the wachowski got sued and went to court by a comics creator (I can’t recall the title) for being so similar it was plagiarism in visuals and in plot to which they settled on some profit of the residuals. So yes the matrix was plagiarized a bit. And yes Elric has way more depth in my opinion. The simple fact is that taken in stride and side by side be it from a visual aspect alone or “tropes” as everyone likes to call it, the Witcher is plagiarism. Digging deeper the plot elements, themes, games, characters etc are also heavily taken from Moorcock that you could take them to court and probably win a plagiarism suit. Like cmon. The white wolf, the conjunctjon of the spheres? Sapkowski didn’t even bother to change the names and that’s only 2 things. I’ve linked a video that goes into way more detail in the comments, thanks for the comment,
@@Calypso694 Really they got sued? Good. But still they took a bit from everything and made an industry changing film.
The Matrix, the original Matrix was created as far as I know in the Neuromancer
Novel by William Gibson. It is the quintessential Cyber Punk novel.
JWalker yeah Gibson coined cyberpunk, matrix yada yada but the matrix film besides that took so many things from (I found the comic) The Invisibles by grant morrison that he got some money for it. Great films but there’s no denying the Wachowskis ripped off a bunch of stuff. The first film anyway. The others and the rest of universe get more original if slightly. Personally I think Neuromancer is terrible. Gibson is a terrible writer in my opinion but he has great ideas. If only they were executed better.
@@Calypso694 Well I loved it, but yes Gibson has some attention span issues. Some pages I just could not stay with wtf he was talking about lol!! I love the Altered Carbon, Takeshi Kovacs books though. Way better writing but for the porn sex lol! I'm on the 3rd book now.
But yeah Matrix ripped off I'd say everything. I mean shit, they got Moebius to make comp art for them for petes sake. Stealing on a budget!
@@Calypso694 The conjunction of the spheres is not a term invented by Moorcock, so... that's a no.
Sent here by Razorfist. Worth the watch. Thanks for the video.
wrong you don't need potions to survive Witcher games, it's harder but you don't need to take them.
Such plagaristic of the great Elric of Melnibone
Inspired by or similar to =\= plagiarism. If it was the other way around every fantasy author would be plagiarizing Tolkien by using the template he created for fantasy (dwarves, orcs, elves, dragons etc.).
You clearly missed the point. Feel free to do your own research. Hope you enjoyed the video :)
If you take out orcs, it’s just Germanic mythology and perfectly within public domain.
Damn what's that song at 12:00
Really loud!its from the Witcher 3 soundtrack. Silver for monsters I think.
@@Calypso694 thanks! I'll also note that sadly it seems in a literary perspective Elrics novels are really expensive due to the collectors market. I'd know considering I've been trying to get them for a couple of years now and even try to scour used book stores in hopes to find them. The comics are good adaptations surely but as far as direct sources its.. just hard and can hurt it's publicity as now moorecocks writings are considered more occult
Virus Dot EXE oh yeah if you want the original prints pretty pricey! But if you check amazon/eBay for any prints no matter the version I’ve found them pretty cheap.
Tower of the swallow=the vanishing tower?
I love the Witcher but he's definitely a product plagiarism same as Batman.
Oh man don’t even get me started on batman and the punisher.
You know batman had his first apperance in 1939 and the punisher had his in 1974?
lynxi life the shadow appeared in 1930
@@Calypso694 i know, but isnt it about batman riping of punisher? Maybe i misread somthing
lynxi life huh? No punisher premiered way later. Batman is a rip off of the shadow through and through. Same villains here and there. Same backstory almost T for T. Only difference is shadow kills. Batman killed early on before DC changed that up. Punisher takes some stuff from shadow also.
The similarities are becoming more apparent.
Similarities are not the problem. Moorcock did not invent albinos or rune swords, he just wanted the themes both of them represent and spun a story around them. When this video, near the end, describes the two characters of Elric as both being albinos, both being enamored with a raven hared sorceress, both running around in a sword and sorcery setting, then finishes off with "maybe those are just superficial similarities" - then yes, I am forced to conclude they are.
Because those are superficial characterisitics.
Runeswords, albinoism, alchemy, magic, monsters, those are all basic tropes. The argument is more akin to "once is coincidence, fifteen times is enemy action." But because we ARE talking basic, yet prominent tropes, the pool authors can pull from is so small that this similarity need not necessarily BE enemy action.
Even if it is, the same similarities seem to exist between the Elric Saga and the sources Moorcock cites as having inspired him, the only difference being that the Kalevala ran out its copyright long ago.
@@Alexander_Kale K
Alexander Kale theres more similarities than the ones you listed. I suggest you watch Razors video where he even points out a connection that shows Sap started the first Witcher draft after reading and translating the Elric books
@@christopherbaker8595 Which part of "similarities are not the problem" didn't you understand?
Moorcock himself outright copied the appearance of Elric from another work of fiction, the name of which I can't remember atm. He is not remotely shy about it and joked about it on occasion.
Alexander Kale what is your point
I once drew a moorcock for Inktober. Called him Michael.
So aside from the differences between elric and Geralt, what else about these series are the similar? I mean aside from the typical fantasy tropes what else did Andrzej inspire/steal his work from?
Conjunction of Spheres. The magic from Chaos. Both bad guys originally seeming like typical bad guy stuff until a deeper threat was uncovered.
"White Wolf" and slender Albinos with white hair.
There's a lot of similarities if you actually read the books.
@@macabweu7682 Keeping in mind that Geralt isn't an albino and you're twisting a quote way out of proportion to make that claim (the line only refers to his hair) while ignoring evidence elsewhere in the stories that shows he's not.
Unfortunately, Elric's show was canceled because it was "too close to the Witcher." Give me a fucking break. 😤
Sigh.
Never use low res images in a video again.
Ah another man of culture 👌
26:24
"Warhammer are simple thieves.
I mean they just don't steal from me, they steal from everybody.
So as far as I'm concerned that's simple theft, it's commercial theft."
- Michael Moorcock
wasn't The WItcher already written before there was a Polish edition of Elric tho?
That doesn't necessarily stop the author from getting a non-Polish edition tho, and I don't know what languages the author can read anyways.
@@aarondubourg3706 the first witcher short story "The Witcher" that spakowski wrote and published was in 1986. The first polish edition of Elric was in 1985. And contraband was easy enough to smuggle.
CDPR started the company from smuggled in US games and pirating others to translate to then sell funny enough.
"the Empire of Novigrad"
It's like you aren't even trying.
You know there is Novigrad in real life Croatia?
@@jindrichdolejs623 in REAL LIFE
@@jindrichdolejs623 yo what?
@@jindrichdolejs623 There is several Novigrads in Croatia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novigrad
It just means "New City" in pretty much every Slavic language.
I will need to check your whole video but I want to mention one thing both you and Razorfist get wrong - Aesthetics in literature... do not matter that much. Yes, they do matter in comic books to some extent, but this isnt comics.
Themes, ideas, characters, metanarrative, sideshadowing, commentary and other boring terms is what makes the work - the work. I do not know what you guys study at school but this is basic 3rd grader stuff here.
The two works arent very similar but there is obvious inspiration from one to the other. That is true. I want Sapkowski to acknowledge it and I would like it if we got an Elric TV series. I really would. I understand where the frustration of the author and parts of his fanbase may lie. I really do. But plagiarism this is not. I am actually saddened at the state of literary discourse by you guys on this matter :(
Plots might be different for sure. But the things surrounding that plot like characters, world etc? Are plagiarism. When the majority of your work is someone else’s so much so that regardless of you giving credit or not, it’s still plagiarism. I get my video doesn’t do a good job and going into any real detail and only hits the surface things but it’s much more than aesthetics. Characters, themes, the world, elements of that plot line (despite the general plot being different) aren’t simple aesthetics.
@@Calypso694 Plot is actually not as important as characters and themes, but even it is different between these works.
I watched Razor's video and I felt like he didnt read Elric at all. Like, at all. It was almost as if an AI was comparing them. He also said some cringe stuff like White Wolf or Symbol of Chaos being from Elric when these terms exist in Slavic stories or languages. Just because an American doesnt know em doesnt mean they arent there. :P
I am not hating on you dudes but I think this video, even though it isnt perfect either (slight stuff mostly, plus a missed essay from Sapkowski mentioning Elric) is much better:
watch?v=vZmOEuQoAFM
I have criticisms here too but she does outline part of my issues with your vids guys. Again, no hate, I understand why you are annoyed. I am fucking livid that people dont want to make a TV series or game out of Elric just because some dumb Westerner thinks he looks like Geralt, that really does annoy me so much you cant believe. But it isnt somethign to start wars between the book readers over.
Alexander Yordanov her vid is excellent and funny. It’s difficult I think for people to try and see the other picture of things. Naturally they don’t have to but trying is fine. Everything is just opinions after all.
@@Calypso694 I think that is fair man.
I hope Elric gets more readers and a TV show. I also hope the bad blood between Witcher and Elric fans stop. They arent much alike but both are real nice IMHO. Its better to like more things, life is... bad enough already.
Lmao cope harder. You delusional witcher fanboys will literally excuse plagiarism and die for the honor of a barely mediocre fantasy series 🤣
22:07 *"A N D S I L V E R F O R M O N S T E R S"*
Okay I needed that.
*banana tiger intensifies*
who was Skeletor inspired by Elric