Joseph Fielding Smith is my great grandfather. It’s just weird to hear about his intentional deception and how it’s affected so many of us. I mean ultimately, it’s my direct ancestors who are to blame for all of this mess and I’m not exempt from the pain. I feel like I’m carrying a curse sometimes. This heavy burden my ancestors have left on my shoulders. Especially as I’ve broken away and called out the deception and lost so much in doing so. It’s been excruciating.
I’m so sorry. That is a great pain. Please allow yourself to separate from the misdeeds of your ancestors. Take comfort in your personal healing after your pain and grief and take comfort in knowing the facade is rapidly being torn down. People are waking up and healing. None of this is your fault. You are just as much a victim as anyone else even if they’re not directly related as you are
@@brooklyna8943Oh, absolutely, go ahead and share your anti-Mormon-manufactured misery! It's truly inspiring how MS can take a flimsy, questionable claim and spin it into a full-blown chapter. Just brilliant! Yet again, MS shows their true colors, revealing the utterly diabolical agenda behind these videos. Such dedication to distorting the truth is nothing short of impressive!
It would be great to have any of his writings that could help you to show the absurdity of this church! I have ancestors as well that go back and had an impact on the church. I don’t demean them but neither will I support their own ignorance in this..
I have been on a faith journey for some time now. I grew in Mormonism, went on a mission, went through the temple, and was eventually excommunicated. When I was excommunicated I vividly remember one phrase my stake president said, "To protect the good name of the Church." I wasn't excommunicated because of my sins, but because my actions looked bad for the church. I fell in line with the church after my excommunication, was baptized and received my priesthood and temple blessings again. However, I had more doubts rejoining the church. Didn't feel anything at my baptism. Had an emotional temple sealing, which was good. But I have come to the conclusion, after study and prayer, that the Book Of Mormon is a work of fiction. (Thank you CES Letter). The temple is a scam only there to keep you in line so you pay your tithing. The board members of the church are money hoarding narcissists who only want you to have faith in Jesus Christ, if it's how they teach you. Jesus Christ is Lord and anyone can find him through faith, prayer, and study. I don't need a church to tell me how I have to worship my Lord. Keep up the good work John!
Thank you for sharing your journey with us! I met Mormon missionaries as a child in Australia when they came to our front door. My mother allowed them in to talk, and they were the most polite and articulate young men. I was fascinated and read the book they left with us and loved the pictures of angels and glowing plates.However, the story always felt like it was akin to a fairy tale and never rung true. As an adult I did my research and decided Joseph Smith was an imaginative purveyor of tall stories - in order to get what he wanted. The modern 'Mormon lifestyle' has some good moral pointers and some really bad ones. It's certainly a major corporation that those benefiting the most want to retain. Jesus Christ is Lord and is real. God Bless you and your loved ones,♥🦘
“For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man - the Man Christ Jesus.” - Paul What? No Prophet or President? No Apostle, stake President or Bishop? Something has really gone wrong here.
@@leecooper3852 Problem is, most would think that the good news is something completely different than what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Most today would preach a gospel quite different than the apostles did.
When I was a teenager, I remember hearing people in the church say, “don’t read anything from the Tanners.” I had no idea who they were. It’s ironic now, after my faith crisis, that the church deceived me and the Tanners were telling the truth all along. Loved this episode! 💗
Imagine living in SLC UT back in the day when I had to sneak out of the house to go meet her & her husband Jerald to learn of christianity vs the mormon cult-ture I was in. Worth every minute of it !
Dear Dear Dear Sandra, I am almost a couple decades outside of you and Jerald’s full disruption of the LDS/Mormon/TCOJCOLDS impact but my goodness the efforts you and Jerald made has been overwhelmingly humbling for me and just the utterance of your name frequently chokes me up in the back of my throat. I know you never set out to tell your truths so that you could be honored. But, you have been forever honored because of your truths. I thank you forever because of what you and Jerald have done. Inspiring. Amazing. Beautiful forever.
Best comment!! I too came to say that Sandra is an absolute gem and I love to see her on the show. Her smile just lights up the studio. Not saying the rest of you aren't wonderful, but as I reach granny age, Sandra really is such a valuable perspective for me.
The response from the LDS church was more powerful to me than the CES letter itself, which is a fantastic piece of work. It really showed me that the church has no answers and just uses nasty tactics to fend off criticism. I was still looking for answers and explanations at the time - the church completely failed and showed its ugly face in the process. Thank you dear LDS for this powerful testimony. Thank you Mormon Stories for this refresher.
Those last couple clips from Bushman are WILD! I can’t believe he ended with “the truth doesn’t really even matter.” I really can’t believe they even posted this. Wow.
All we need now is a transcript of Bushman’s responses inserted into the CES letter; one document. It’s so obvious that even Bushman, the church’s leading apologist, has confirmed or validated all of the issues in the CES Letter. It’s incredible that anyone can dismiss the CES letter without also completely discounting Bushman!
This is absolutely the best episode of Mormon Stories I have ever listened to! The issues raised goes directly to the bottom line of everything wrong with the Mormon church.
The discussion around “choosing to be offended “ really hits home for me, especially the comparison to a woman finding out her husband has been lying and cheating for years - Jordan Peterson (though I don’t agree with ALL his opinions) called this experience “psychological death”, very accurate..I’ve gone through this and finding out the church’s narrative on the history that I was taught and believed all my life was also a lie is a very similar experience. It isn’t a choice to be offended, it’s psychological death (loss of our narrative about our past, present and future). People need to stop invalidating what this feels like, it’s not a choice, it’s traumatizing for some/many.
Thank you all very much for this episode on Mormon Stories. I am new to this channel, was a Convert of the age of 18 in 1977 in Northern Germany. Served a full time mission, got sealed in the Temple, was a Bishop‘s wife (we had no children due to infertility of my husband) and I left the Church and husband in 1997 to start my professional career as an Opera Singer. I always had good feelings towards the members of the Church. Now, after complete opening eyes, I feel almost depressed and very sorry for the good, righteous people in the Church and especially for the members of the Ward I left. I was not excommunicated by the Church but asked to be released. I was later asked by the Stake President if I also would resign to my sealings to my husband, since he was going remarrying his new wife in the temple. She was not too happy to have in the afterlife another woman sealed to her husband to be. Of course I agreed and stepped back from it. Since I always had good feelings about the way LDS people lived, another little dream of me is now destroyed: „if I would ever decide I would like to become religious again, I might only join the LDS Church again, since I was and still am very highly respected by their members here in Switzerland 🇨🇭and I would always feel welcomed all around the World by it‘s members. Now this dream will never come true. Because the Church of Latter Day Saints isn‘t true at all!“ I feel betrayed. I know the LDS Church is a BIG fake. Very sad but faithfully yours: Giulia, now retired and happy living in beautiful Switzerland 🇨🇭 (There is much more to tell of my Story…!)
@@giuliagautschi-delre2313 sehr gut, dass die LDS im deutschsprachigen Raum kaum existiert. Ich habe meine Kindheit in Deutschland damit verbracht, von diesem beinahe Nazi-Kult gedemütigt zu werden.
Attention, everyone! Just because someone posts something on an anti-Mormon website, we should obviously assume it's gospel truth, right? Never mind that most of the claims from the Tanners and their fellow anti-Mormons have been thoroughly debunked-why bother mentioning that? Instead, let's just run with the idea that the Church is hiding things from its members, because that’s far more entertaining. And who needs to actually look at counter-arguments when you can just take everything at face value? It’s truly astonishing that in this day and age, people still swallow this narrative without a second thought.
@@NoteworthyAnalysis don't need anything anti Mormon. There are exactly zero LDS hospitals, rehab centers, or anything else helping society like other religions do. There is no church hoarding anywhere near as much money and doing nothing other than laundering money by suing little cities so you can have the biggest steep. steeple is just a modern oblisk. What did that stand for? Very fitting they want the biggest one on their great and space building. Those old clowns are sons of predition.
@@NoteworthyAnalysis By their works you'll know them. Who Would Jesus lie to and sue? How many LDS hospitals have been built with billions they are hoarding? Parable of talents comparison the church is burying its talents.
This is the exmo Dream Team in fine form! I could listen to you 4 for several more hours and be both entertained, as well as enlightened. Bravo! And Sandra has a delightful sense of humor to go with her vast knowledge! You guys hit it out of the ballpark on this one! 🎉
Bushman: "its a couple centuries ahead of us in engineering knowledge" Sandra: *holds up the rock* I swear ive never laughed so hard😂😂 this episode was perfection
Man, this episode is SOOO GOOD! John, I absolutely love your outrage at the end, it was phenomenal, and so spot on! Sandra, you are an absolute legend, and we all owe you a great debt of gratitude for the work you and your husband have done! The whole team is just amazing, thank you, thank you, thank you!!
This episode is one of the best I’ve ever seen on Mormon Stories. Great job to everyone on the panel. Even Richard Bushman. Because he makes a better case for ridiculousness of these things than anyone!
As a comic book collector i remember amazing spider man #4 from about 2018, there was a page where spider man's costume is covered in promotion patches...one of them says CES LETTER.. I'm not a mormon and I had no idea what it was, in fact, I ignored it, i didn't even know there was an issue, until Marvel banned the comic and pulped their remaining issues and reprinted it without the CS letter on the patch. From that moment on I had to have a look at what a CES letter was, that's how i ended up here.
I love all of the regulars that you have on the podcast, not a bad one in the lot. Can we please add Sandra as a recurring guest? We all adore her so much!!
I am friends with Richard Bushmans grandson. He has admitted that Bushman does not believe the truth claims of the church. He stays for the community and because he thinks the church produces good people and strong families.
Today was a great day because of this! I remember decades ago Sandra & Jerald Tanner helping me out of that facade. Back when John D. was facing prosecution for truth and I had to sneak away to escape LDS- Many Thanks
I met Sandra at Sizzler! (seems to be a nice lady, but so stuck on history - that faith may be lost). If she doesnt think the church is true (all made up) then does she think all faiths are false? (that would be one of the main take aways) what is true vs wrong? (okay food for thought) and hope she comes around (its never too late for any of us).
I moved to a different county, issued my resignation, and insisted on a letter saying I was no longer eligible for any blessings etc. What a day! I was nearly 70 in 2015 and FREE! Love Sandra, Julia and Gerardo. Oh and you John. 💜
@@nute742Not all faiths are ‘false’ in the way that Mormonism is. I believe that most of the world’s faiths by people who thought they had made genuine insights into the human condition and humanity’s relationship with God or eternal truths. Thus Zoroaster, Confucius, Buddha, Jesus, or Mohammed. I am a Christian and believe that it is only Jesus who provides the truth. However, these other people were sincere if wrong. It is also certain that details of their lives and teachings were embellished by their later disciples. In contrast Joseph Smith was a proven con artist, before he began his sect and who evolved his cult and teachings to satisfy his own ego and sexual desires.
@@nute742 Its simple! Obey the laws of the lands you're in. Every country was developed in politics & religion. If Im in a Muslim region that requires I wear a hajib I would, even though Im not of that religion. It doesn't really matter as long as we show love & respect where we are. Remember the laws of cause & effect. We aren't talking about the whole world & all religions. Sandra speaks of Utah, mormons & christianity.
This is my first time experiencing Sandra Tanner and OMG I LOVE HER! Need to research where I can hear more from her! This episode was 🔥! Love all of you and the great work you do!
Agreed! The Spicier John is emotional but to the point and makes me feel defended. All the emotions are okay. It gets across the frustration and insanity that the LDS church fraud causes PostMormons and those in a faith crisis. Appreciate your work and care, John Dehlin!
One thing that really stands out to me about the treasure digging thing is growing up Mormon i was always taught about how Joseph was first shown the plates and told of his destiny back when he was a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD KID, but was told he had to wait untill he was older to accept the responsibility. So... i guess i he just revived divine revelation about the plates, wandered off to scam people as a treasure digger for several years, THEN suddenly decided to make a hard swing back to being a prophet of god after being a snake oil salesmen didn't work out. If you already knew the truth, then why spend all that time scamming people if you already knew this stuff as a teen? Wouldn't that go against your god? And why would god choose a known liar to bring back his church when he could choose someone more trustworthy and in better standing?
Grateful to the internet age for exposing these things. Sad Joseph Smith's lies hurt so many over generations, but kudos to you for standing up for what you believe even through the costs.
This was a fantastic, thoughtful, deep, nuanced, historically grounded, factually grounded discussion. Thank you so much for it! As a never-Mormon it was clear to me both how much you respect Richard Bushman as a person and also how deep the harm of the church's truth claims still rests inside all of you. I'm glad you all were in a place to find levity and community here when expressing with your very real frustration at the way the church hurts its followers and itself by its changing stories it insists are never changing.
We are grandparents who have been out about a year and a half after being inactive for a couple years. We have 7 grandchildren, and a few missionairies in our immediate family. They were all out before us.
So proud of you for doing the hard thing and choosing truth & disfellowship from your community over living a lie. Welcome to your NEW community, we love you for YOU! ♥️
I love Jeremy Runnels. I wrote to him after running from the church. He was so kind to respond to my devastation of discovering I had been raised in a lie and I raised my children in a lie. Another Pioneer in helping so many of us who left the church. Bravo Jeremy, Sandra and the whole Mormon Stories team!!
Many of the claims that Jeremy makes in his pamphlet are clearly lies. For this reason, there are numerous debunkings that convincingly take this garbage apart. Anyone who makes life decisions based on this document is really beyond help.
Sandra does NOT look or sound 83 years old. Go you, Sandra! I wish I had the knowledge & memory that you do. You are truly amazing, & an example to others, especially women, that we CAN make a difference.
Thank you all for speaking the truth! Truth-speakers and whistleblowers are really the bravest people around. And doing some of the most important work for humanity. I love seeing Sandra. Truth does NOT equal goodness. The church just needs a dictionary to know the difference.
The CES letter compilation caused my shelf to break...I knew a lot of the history but when Jeremy brought everything together it all made sense.. unfortunately. It's not easy waking up from the Mormon dream. Because it was a wonderful dream. I do hope that when my life is over that I get to be with my loved ones for eternity.
Mormonism has a very appealing theology (depending on which version of Mormonism you grew up in), unfortunately it is not true and is based on the lies of a conman. However, like a broken clock some of his ideas might be right, we just have to follow our conscience and take the good we learned from Mormonism and hope for something after this life.
Sandra was on a roll today!! As a friend of mine from Alabama would have quipped, "You're just too much candy for a dime" (supply your own southern drawl).
If RFM were there, you'd have 4 generations of Mormon commentators, each building off the work of each other. And the rock will continue to roll forth.
I am so grateful for all the episodes containing Sandra's vast knowledge. We won't have her forever. Thank you to MS for every episode including her and documenting her depth of knowledge of early church history. It blows me away every time she is on.
If you want to see anger, watch Jeremy's recording of his excommunication, and you'll see 12 men treat him like crap, and one personally attacking him relentlessly. He keeps asking questions and they keep ignoring him. It's despicable. Jeremy was asking questions. The CES Letter was the questions he wrote down for the CES, in the church. He was told by his bishop to write to him!! Creeps.
This has been one of my favorite episodes and I’ve seen A LOT of Mormon stories podcasts 😆 even now after thousands of hours of research there were so many great insights and gold nuggets it was amazing!
The most damaging thing about this "re-education" of members rather than coming clean and apologising for hiding the real history, is that the members who are being innoculated with the seer stone story think those of us have left are making excuses. The disingenuousness of the church damages families and friendships.
@@ryant6134"Letter to my Wife" is basically a more kindly worded CES letter that a guy wrote to his wife. So this would be a play on that title in the same way that "CES Letters" is a play on "CES Letter"
Around 2% of the "current" world population is considered polygamist! (So were many biblical prophets too) Not every mormon had this role/calling. However it does make great news now adays! (I admit that).
Joseph never had kids with anyone but his wife was only sealed to different women and Jacob chapter 2 clearly states to never have more than 1 wife and 0 concubines. Joseph ran around city to city which is a lie he was part of a treasure finders 1 time on part of a crew and the so called magic is the same so called magic Solomon used. So this is all speculation
When I was a child in California in the mid 60’s our family was surrounded by Mormons and Jehovah Witness. I remember finding The Mormons extremely loving and lovely people and was so disappointed when my mother told me about the hat, the stones and the gold plates. I was only 10 at the time and could not believe that story. I can see why the Mormons covered it up. I believe in the creator . My religion has always been the church of “find your humanity, practice it and don’t act like an asshole.”
Honest people just want the real Joseph Smith to emerge. Bushman, while a believer, can't ignore data. Great to see Sandra and others provide insights.
Oh my…I’m a grandparent of six grandchildren and removed my name from record at age 62. I also experienced traumatizing emotional abuse from church members when I went through infertility (eventually adopted 2 children).
Here’s what I feel bad about.. because the church constantly has the “All or Nothing” stance, those of us who exercise logic, reason, and being able to repurpose truth claims and beliefs to allegories and symbolisms to be able to try to stay in the church in an honest way become alienated. I’m 32, been coming back since I was about 30 after a decade long of being inactive, and realize many of the members will not or cannot hear alternative views. I try to help the church out by taking classes at the Institute since let’s be honest, here in the Mormon belt (Idaho, Utah, Nevada), it’s dwindled to only about 20-30 students attending all of it each school semester at any given time and the numbers continue to get smaller. It’s why they try to hound those attending to please sign their petition so they can continue to get funding by the nearby colleges and universities. You would think they would honor the “we want to hear all sides and want to become an open minded church” statement that they try to promote now, but they don’t. If your views clash with theirs, they immediately try to prove you wrong or say you’re incorrect and if you have church history, archeology, past statements made by previous prophets and general authorities, and dare I say even scripture to back up your position, you are accused of being knit picky and argumentative. I had a pregnant sister in one of the classes get all emotional and upset when I proved that there are issues in relying on faith alone. I had a brother thank me and openly admit he’s had questions about that but has been too scared to open up about it due to worries of potentially offending others or being asked to leave. I wonder when the church is gonna grow up and remove lots of its hard stances and be able to welcome all including those of us who aren’t orthodox in the faith..
The 3 witnesses are the equivalent of a Magician using His Assistant, His Stage manager and his Accountant as witnesses to the authenticity of his Magic. Why not show the plates to impartial people of standing in the community? Of course its a rhetorical question, because they didn't exist.
I caught your being live towards the end yesterday. We need you, Dr Dehlin and Mormon Stories! I didn't lose my trust in the church through the CES Letter. I forget when I first learned about the CES letter. I haven't read it yet, but I knew about the issues in the church about 2ish years after converting. Converted 10 years ago (for the wrong reasons) and I wish I hadn't. I stopped attending 2 years ago after aging out of YSA (which now I guess the age range has bumped up as of a few weeks ago), but I know all of my friends who were in the ward I was in have moved on anyway. I would love to tell my story if I could.
I've probably said this in other episode comments, but my parents joined the Church in the mid 60s. When my dad told his mother they were leaving the little non-denominational church they had belonged to for many years, she was furious. Her family originally settled in upstate New York--they were staunch supporters of the Revolution and great friends with Lafayette, who came to stay with them whenever he visited America. Grandma told Dad 'Everyone in the neighborhood knew the Smiths were treasure diggers and fortune tellers, any religion made up by Joe Smith is a lie from start to finish, and you are never to talk about this again in my hearing or I will disown you.' As for Emma, of course she looked under the cloth. She was a practical New England housewife and she needed to know the truth of what was going on, to make her husband successful. As a result, Emma had to turn a blind eye to a lot of shenanigans, and it made her life miserable. I tried to read Rough Stone Rolling, but (IMO) it came off as an apologist re-write of No Man Knows My History. As Sandra says, RSR comes closer to the truth but it's still heavily sugar-coated in an attempt to make the bitter pill of the truth palatable. Thanks for a great discussion! The Mormon Stories team is the best, and with the addition of Sandra Tanner you're unbeatable. Thoroughly enjoyed this episode :)
Loving the challenge to "keep it up" 😂. Additionally, ALWAYS happy to see Queen Tanner ❤, but today was better than I ever could've guessed! Mouth dropped open more than a few times!
This was so (unintentionally) funny, much better than Rodney Dangerfield. I am a Never Mormon interested in the sect from a social science perspective and very slowly getting through the Book of Mormon. Its pompous pseudo King James English makes it a difficult read. As the LDS church still has the seer stones/crystals/rocks can the current prophet not produce a modern English translation or is that scuppered by the first translator's blatant plagiarism of the original King James Version of the Bible?
When Jesus and his followers were on the earth, they were considered a cult by many (Sadducees + Sanhedrim, phairacess). The scriptures do say "Few be that find the way" (so statistically speaking - that would eliminate many christian denominations, and faiths).
Why didn't he use the magic seeing stone to find the missing pages? LMFAO! I'm not even halfway through yet and I think that'll probably remain my favorite tidbit here.
If, as Bushman says, doing good is what is important, then the golden rule, “do unto others as you would have other do unto you” is all we need. Religions are unimportant.
If you are “honest in all your dealings” then public scrutiny shouldn’t be an issue. It’s only those people and organizations (I’m looking at you, LDS church) with something to hide who disparage sunlight on their actions.
Ok…so isn’t Dan Vogel absolutely amazing and then some!?!??? His scholarship and ethical pursuits just blow my mind and spirit! Dan…I hope to meet you in person sometime soon!
I am nevermo, but developed an interest from watching Big Love. I subscribed to Sandra's newsletter for several years and read all the bboks I could find in my library (of which there were few). It's easy for me to say, as an outsider, that I have a hard time understanding how rational people can believe some of this stuff, especially since the internet and availablity of the info. I did read Rough Stone Rolling, and I am surprised at many of the things Bushman said today. Anyway, I have been a big fan of Sandra, and I am enjoying getting to know some of you other Stars of the Truth! Sandra, your seer stone was hilarious, and John, I just loved your rant! So much fun!
And it came to pass in the land of Punxsutawney that the day of Phil's prophecy arrived. The people gathered with great anticipation, eager to learn whether winter would persist or spring would soon come. And Phil did emerge from his burrow, but on this particular day, he neither saw his shadow nor failed to see it. Instead, he remained hidden and said, “I have neither seen shadow nor light, for the seasons are pretty complicated, but don’t worry it will all make sense in the future. Just remember your secret…I mean sacred handshakes,” he said with a wink. The people were bewildered, for Phil had given no clear answer, only an ambiguous statement. But he seemed such a nice old Groundhog, in fact almost 100 years old. Surely he could be trusted. Phil spoke again, “Verily, I am still a seer, for in my ambiguity I have revealed the very nature of uncertainty, much like the weather itself-neither bound to winter nor spring but to the whims of chance.” And the people, though somewhat amused and confused, still respected Phil, saying, “Even though Phil’s prophecy be as clear as a foggy morning, we shall honor him, for tradition endures, and in blind obedience and betrayed faith we find meaning.” Thus did Phil continue his role as seer, not for the accuracy of his predictions, but because of his hold on the hearts and minds of the people.
This was so good!! Probably my favorite episode. It was serious I. Pointing out the deception so clearly, but I was also laughing so hard at parts. It really showed how ridiculous it all is!
Great episode! The part that discussed how the statement Mormons love “I know the church is true” made a great point. That phrase that was repeated throughout sacrament meeting and constantly repeated by the missionaries weirded me out when I investigated the church. The church being “true” is an extremely high bar and invites all of these criticisms. It’s also culty/manipulative how much it’s repeated over and over.
If only the Methodists had let JS into their church!!! He would have become a minister there and never started Mormonism. Wow. History pivots on one moment.
A seer, as defined in the Book of Mormon, is one who is commanded to use "interpreters" for the purpose of translating languages and bringing forth hidden truths. If the Q15 are not actively using stones of their own, then they should not be sustained as seers, according to the canonized scriptures of the church.
This podcast will leave you wanting more. I’d listen to a Sandra Tanner podcast. She has the wisdom and experience that crosses generations. Starting at Time Stamp for 02:52:15 the highlight of the whole podcast. The ultimate apologist spin and spilling tea.
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Joseph Fielding Smith is my great grandfather. It’s just weird to hear about his intentional deception and how it’s affected so many of us. I mean ultimately, it’s my direct ancestors who are to blame for all of this mess and I’m not exempt from the pain. I feel like I’m carrying a curse sometimes. This heavy burden my ancestors have left on my shoulders. Especially as I’ve broken away and called out the deception and lost so much in doing so. It’s been excruciating.
I’m so sorry. That is a great pain. Please allow yourself to separate from the misdeeds of your ancestors. Take comfort in your personal healing after your pain and grief and take comfort in knowing the facade is rapidly being torn down. People are waking up and healing. None of this is your fault. You are just as much a victim as anyone else even if they’re not directly related as you are
Email me if you wanna meet to talk @yeshalloween
mormonstories@gmail.com
@@brooklyna8943Oh, absolutely, go ahead and share your anti-Mormon-manufactured misery! It's truly inspiring how MS can take a flimsy, questionable claim and spin it into a full-blown chapter. Just brilliant! Yet again, MS shows their true colors, revealing the utterly diabolical agenda behind these videos. Such dedication to distorting the truth is nothing short of impressive!
It would be great to have any of his writings that could help you to show the absurdity of this church! I have ancestors as well that go back and had an impact on the church. I don’t demean them but neither will I support their own ignorance in this..
My heart aches for you💔🤗
I have been on a faith journey for some time now. I grew in Mormonism, went on a mission, went through the temple, and was eventually excommunicated. When I was excommunicated I vividly remember one phrase my stake president said, "To protect the good name of the Church." I wasn't excommunicated because of my sins, but because my actions looked bad for the church. I fell in line with the church after my excommunication, was baptized and received my priesthood and temple blessings again. However, I had more doubts rejoining the church. Didn't feel anything at my baptism. Had an emotional temple sealing, which was good. But I have come to the conclusion, after study and prayer, that the Book Of Mormon is a work of fiction. (Thank you CES Letter). The temple is a scam only there to keep you in line so you pay your tithing. The board members of the church are money hoarding narcissists who only want you to have faith in Jesus Christ, if it's how they teach you. Jesus Christ is Lord and anyone can find him through faith, prayer, and study. I don't need a church to tell me how I have to worship my Lord. Keep up the good work John!
Thank you for sharing your journey with us! I met Mormon missionaries as a child in Australia when they came to our front door. My mother allowed them in to talk, and they were the most polite and articulate young men. I was fascinated and read the book they left with us and loved the pictures of angels and glowing plates.However, the story always felt like it was akin to a fairy tale and never rung true. As an adult I did my research and decided Joseph Smith was an imaginative purveyor of tall stories - in order to get what he wanted.
The modern 'Mormon lifestyle' has some good moral pointers and some really bad ones. It's certainly a major corporation that those benefiting the most want to retain.
Jesus Christ is Lord and is real. God Bless you and your loved ones,♥🦘
“For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man - the Man Christ Jesus.” - Paul
What? No Prophet or President? No Apostle, stake President or Bishop? Something has really gone wrong here.
When did the church add the word Seers to Prophets and Revelators,, anybody know? 👋🏻
Actually you have a command to preach the good news of God's Kingdom...Matthew 24:14...it's an identification mark of a Christian
@@leecooper3852
Problem is, most would think that the good news is something completely different than what Peter preached on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2. Most today would preach a gospel quite different than the apostles did.
When I was a teenager, I remember hearing people in the church say, “don’t read anything from the Tanners.”
I had no idea who they were.
It’s ironic now, after my faith crisis, that the church deceived me and the Tanners were telling the truth all along. Loved this episode! 💗
Mormons don't deal well with facts.
Sandra is a national treasure! I love her, even as me being a nevermo, I always watch her all the way through.
Love Sandra....
Imagine living in SLC UT back in the day when I had to sneak out of the house to go meet her & her husband Jerald to learn of christianity vs the mormon cult-ture I was in. Worth every minute of it !
She seems like a sweet lady.
Dear Dear Dear Sandra, I am almost a couple decades outside of you and Jerald’s full disruption of the LDS/Mormon/TCOJCOLDS impact but my goodness the efforts you and Jerald made has been overwhelmingly humbling for me and just the utterance of your name frequently chokes me up in the back of my throat. I know you never set out to tell your truths so that you could be honored. But, you have been forever honored because of your truths. I thank you forever because of what you and Jerald have done. Inspiring. Amazing. Beautiful forever.
Best comment!!
I too came to say that Sandra is an absolute gem and I love to see her on the show. Her smile just lights up the studio.
Not saying the rest of you aren't wonderful, but as I reach granny age, Sandra really is such a valuable perspective for me.
The response from the LDS church was more powerful to me than the CES letter itself, which is a fantastic piece of work. It really showed me that the church has no answers and just uses nasty tactics to fend off criticism. I was still looking for answers and explanations at the time - the church completely failed and showed its ugly face in the process. Thank you dear LDS for this powerful testimony. Thank you Mormon Stories for this refresher.
Those last couple clips from Bushman are WILD! I can’t believe he ended with “the truth doesn’t really even matter.” I really can’t believe they even posted this. Wow.
Well… it’s pretty clear that, it doesn’t even matter to the Grand Poobah and his pals. It’s money that matters to them.
LOVED seeing Sandra Tanner and hearing her expertise
All we need now is a transcript of Bushman’s responses inserted into the CES letter; one document. It’s so obvious that even Bushman, the church’s leading apologist, has confirmed or validated all of the issues in the CES Letter. It’s incredible that anyone can dismiss the CES letter without also completely discounting Bushman!
This is absolutely the best episode of Mormon Stories I have ever listened to! The issues raised goes directly to the bottom line of everything wrong with the Mormon church.
That’s what I thought as I was listening to it.
Much appreciation for Sandra, Jeremy, and John. You are all courageous heroes. Very proud of y'all.
Yessa and Julia too :)
Sits there a legend.. Sandra Tanner! Keeping it real like nobody’s business. LOVE HER AND HAVE HUGE RESPECT FOR HER! All of you were fantastic!!
Me too!
The discussion around “choosing to be offended “ really hits home for me, especially the comparison to a woman finding out her husband has been lying and cheating for years - Jordan Peterson (though I don’t agree with ALL his opinions) called this experience “psychological death”, very accurate..I’ve gone through this and finding out the church’s narrative on the history that I was taught and believed all my life was also a lie is a very similar experience. It isn’t a choice to be offended, it’s psychological death (loss of our narrative about our past, present and future). People need to stop invalidating what this feels like, it’s not a choice, it’s traumatizing for some/many.
💯👏🏻
Thank you all very much for this episode on Mormon Stories. I am new to this channel, was a Convert of the age of 18 in 1977 in Northern Germany. Served a full time mission, got sealed in the Temple, was a Bishop‘s wife (we had no children due to infertility of my husband) and I left the Church and husband in 1997 to start my professional career as an Opera Singer. I always had good feelings towards the members of the Church. Now, after complete opening eyes, I feel almost depressed and very sorry for the good, righteous people in the Church and especially for the members of the Ward I left. I was not excommunicated by the Church but asked to be released. I was later asked by the Stake President if I also would resign to my sealings to my husband, since he was going remarrying his new wife in the temple. She was not too happy to have in the afterlife another woman sealed to her husband to be. Of course I agreed and stepped back from it. Since I always had good feelings about the way LDS people lived, another little dream of me is now destroyed: „if I would ever decide I would like to become religious again, I might only join the LDS Church again, since I was and still am very highly respected by their members here in Switzerland 🇨🇭and I would always feel welcomed all around the World by it‘s members. Now this dream will never come true. Because the Church of Latter Day Saints isn‘t true at all!“ I feel betrayed. I know the LDS Church is a BIG fake. Very sad but faithfully yours: Giulia, now retired and happy living in beautiful Switzerland 🇨🇭 (There is much more to tell of my Story…!)
@@giuliagautschi-delre2313 sehr gut, dass die LDS im deutschsprachigen Raum kaum existiert. Ich habe meine Kindheit in Deutschland damit verbracht, von diesem beinahe Nazi-Kult gedemütigt zu werden.
Attention, everyone! Just because someone posts something on an anti-Mormon website, we should obviously assume it's gospel truth, right? Never mind that most of the claims from the Tanners and their fellow anti-Mormons have been thoroughly debunked-why bother mentioning that? Instead, let's just run with the idea that the Church is hiding things from its members, because that’s far more entertaining. And who needs to actually look at counter-arguments when you can just take everything at face value? It’s truly astonishing that in this day and age, people still swallow this narrative without a second thought.
@@NoteworthyAnalysis don't need anything anti Mormon. There are exactly zero LDS hospitals, rehab centers, or anything else helping society like other religions do. There is no church hoarding anywhere near as much money and doing nothing other than laundering money by suing little cities so you can have the biggest steep. steeple is just a modern oblisk. What did that stand for? Very fitting they want the biggest one on their great and space building. Those old clowns are sons of predition.
@@NoteworthyAnalysis By their works you'll know them. Who Would Jesus lie to and sue? How many LDS hospitals have been built with billions they are hoarding? Parable of talents comparison the church is burying its talents.
@@giuliagautschi-delre2313would Jesus have a church run by lawyers?
One of the best Mormon Stories episodes of all time! Well done!
I agree.
This is the exmo Dream Team in fine form! I could listen to you 4 for several more hours and be both entertained, as well as enlightened. Bravo! And Sandra has a delightful sense of humor to go with her vast knowledge! You guys hit it out of the ballpark on this one! 🎉
Bushman: "its a couple centuries ahead of us in engineering knowledge"
Sandra: *holds up the rock*
I swear ive never laughed so hard😂😂 this episode was perfection
Man, this episode is SOOO GOOD! John, I absolutely love your outrage at the end, it was phenomenal, and so spot on! Sandra, you are an absolute legend, and we all owe you a great debt of gratitude for the work you and your husband have done!
The whole team is just amazing, thank you, thank you, thank you!!
This episode is one of the best I’ve ever seen on Mormon Stories. Great job to everyone on the panel. Even Richard Bushman. Because he makes a better case for ridiculousness of these things than anyone!
As a comic book collector i remember amazing spider man #4 from about 2018, there was a page where spider man's costume is covered in promotion patches...one of them says CES LETTER.. I'm not a mormon and I had no idea what it was, in fact, I ignored it, i didn't even know there was an issue, until Marvel banned the comic and pulped their remaining issues and reprinted it without the CS letter on the patch. From that moment on I had to have a look at what a CES letter was, that's how i ended up here.
I love all of the regulars that you have on the podcast, not a bad one in the lot. Can we please add Sandra as a recurring guest? We all adore her so much!!
I am friends with Richard Bushmans grandson. He has admitted that Bushman does not believe the truth claims of the church. He stays for the community and because he thinks the church produces good people and strong families.
Today was a great day because of this! I remember decades ago Sandra & Jerald Tanner helping me out of that facade. Back when John D. was facing prosecution for truth and I had to sneak away to escape LDS- Many Thanks
I met Sandra at Sizzler! (seems to be a nice lady, but so stuck on history - that faith may be lost). If she doesnt think the church is true (all made up) then does she think all faiths are false? (that would be one of the main take aways) what is true vs wrong? (okay food for thought) and hope she comes around (its never too late for any of us).
I moved to a different county, issued my resignation, and insisted on a letter saying I was no longer eligible for any blessings etc. What a day! I was nearly 70 in 2015 and FREE! Love Sandra, Julia and Gerardo. Oh and you John. 💜
@@nute742Not all faiths are ‘false’ in the way that Mormonism is. I believe that most of the world’s faiths by people who thought they had made genuine insights into the human condition and humanity’s relationship with God or eternal truths. Thus Zoroaster, Confucius, Buddha, Jesus, or Mohammed. I am a Christian and believe that it is only Jesus who provides the truth. However, these other people were sincere if wrong. It is also certain that details of their lives and teachings were embellished by their later disciples. In contrast Joseph Smith was a proven con artist, before he began his sect and who evolved his cult and teachings to satisfy his own ego and sexual desires.
@@nute742 Its simple! Obey the laws of the lands you're in. Every country was developed in politics & religion. If Im in a Muslim region that requires I wear a hajib I would, even though Im not of that religion. It doesn't really matter as long as we show love & respect where we are. Remember the laws of cause & effect. We aren't talking about the whole world & all religions. Sandra speaks of Utah, mormons & christianity.
@@nute742Sandra is a Christian. She attends a church in Utah. I’ve heard her talk about it on other podcasts.
This is my first time experiencing Sandra Tanner and OMG I LOVE HER! Need to research where I can hear more from her! This episode was 🔥! Love all of you and the great work you do!
You’re in luck…There are tons of great episodes on this channel!
John, thank you for getting spicy! You speak for all of us in your very articulate rant at the end
My pleasure
Agreed! The Spicier John is emotional but to the point and makes me feel defended. All the emotions are okay. It gets across the frustration and insanity that the LDS church fraud causes PostMormons and those in a faith crisis. Appreciate your work and care, John Dehlin!
@@Mejustme-g8b 1,000%! Well said!
I love this energy !
One thing that really stands out to me about the treasure digging thing is growing up Mormon i was always taught about how Joseph was first shown the plates and told of his destiny back when he was a FOURTEEN YEAR OLD KID, but was told he had to wait untill he was older to accept the responsibility. So... i guess i he just revived divine revelation about the plates, wandered off to scam people as a treasure digger for several years, THEN suddenly decided to make a hard swing back to being a prophet of god after being a snake oil salesmen didn't work out. If you already knew the truth, then why spend all that time scamming people if you already knew this stuff as a teen? Wouldn't that go against your god? And why would god choose a known liar to bring back his church when he could choose someone more trustworthy and in better standing?
Easton should have called his video "Richard Bushman says the quiet part out loud"
Grateful to the internet age for exposing these things. Sad Joseph Smith's lies hurt so many over generations, but kudos to you for standing up for what you believe even through the costs.
Please do more episodes with Sandra and her magic rocks😂😂😂
The advanced technology of the peep stone 😂
It must be that 😂
Everyone getting the giggles in this episode is just the best. Thank you for sharing the joy!
This was a fantastic, thoughtful, deep, nuanced, historically grounded, factually grounded discussion. Thank you so much for it! As a never-Mormon it was clear to me both how much you respect Richard Bushman as a person and also how deep the harm of the church's truth claims still rests inside all of you. I'm glad you all were in a place to find levity and community here when expressing with your very real frustration at the way the church hurts its followers and itself by its changing stories it insists are never changing.
We are grandparents who have been out about a year and a half after being inactive for a couple years. We have 7 grandchildren, and a few missionairies in our immediate family. They were all out before us.
That's awesome. I hope more grandparents can decide to get educated like you have.
So proud of you for doing the hard thing and choosing truth & disfellowship from your community over living a lie.
Welcome to your NEW community, we love you for YOU! ♥️
I love Sandra as well. A true pioneer in getting the actual truth out that we all deserve to be aware of
I love Jeremy Runnels. I wrote to him after running from the church. He was so kind to respond to my devastation of discovering I had been raised in a lie and I raised my children in a lie. Another Pioneer in helping so many of us who left the church. Bravo Jeremy, Sandra and the whole Mormon Stories team!!
Many of the claims that Jeremy makes in his pamphlet are clearly lies. For this reason, there are numerous debunkings that convincingly take this garbage apart. Anyone who makes life decisions based on this document is really beyond help.
Sorry, did you say Jeremy? I think you meant to say Joseph.
Sandra does NOT look or sound 83 years old. Go you, Sandra! I wish I had the knowledge & memory that you do. You are truly amazing, & an example to others, especially women, that we CAN make a difference.
Thank you all for speaking the truth! Truth-speakers and whistleblowers are really the bravest people around. And doing some of the most important work for humanity. I love seeing Sandra. Truth does NOT equal goodness. The church just needs a dictionary to know the difference.
The CES letter compilation caused my shelf to break...I knew a lot of the history but when Jeremy brought everything together it all made sense.. unfortunately. It's not easy waking up from the Mormon dream. Because it was a wonderful dream. I do hope that when my life is over that I get to be with my loved ones for eternity.
Mormonism has a very appealing theology (depending on which version of Mormonism you grew up in), unfortunately it is not true and is based on the lies of a conman. However, like a broken clock some of his ideas might be right, we just have to follow our conscience and take the good we learned from Mormonism and hope for something after this life.
Wow this was such a great episode and the time went by fast! Thank you Mormon Stories!
Sandra was on a roll today!! As a friend of mine from Alabama would have quipped, "You're just too much candy for a dime" (supply your own southern drawl).
Why didn’t Smith show the plates to the forest assailants to disable them instead of fighting them off in the dark ?
😂😂😂
I just told my 14yo daughter the rock story and she said, “I don’t remember the exact definition of a cult, but whatever it is, it’s THIS!”
Love this😅❤
That’s terrible
The seer stone is just a rock. They just admitted it. And no other prophet has been able to use one since. Maybe Joseph was making it up?
Maybe? Just maybe?
This was a great round table conversation that really outlines the absurdity of the rock in the hat apologetics.
Sandra Tanner is truly the GOAT. I have purchased several books from her online store over the years.
Sandra did all this prior to the internet! QUEEN❤
Thank you RICHARD BUSHMAN for backing up Jeremy Reynolds! Everything he brings up was true!!
“It’s a rock…….its,like, earth……..it’s the lowest form of technology.” I laughed so freaking hard at this. Hecka hard
I know! I was thinking that they had this “advanced technology” in the Stone Age 🤣
The four of you together are Magic, I hope to see more collabs of John Sandra Julia Gerardo
If RFM were there, you'd have 4 generations of Mormon commentators, each building off the work of each other. And the rock will continue to roll forth.
Agreed!
Listened to the entire episode today. Thank you guys for all of your amazing hard work putting this together.❤
I am so grateful for all the episodes containing Sandra's vast knowledge. We won't have her forever. Thank you to MS for every episode including her and documenting her depth of knowledge of early church history. It blows me away every time she is on.
If you want to see anger, watch Jeremy's recording of his excommunication, and you'll see 12 men treat him like crap, and one personally attacking him relentlessly. He keeps asking questions and they keep ignoring him.
It's despicable.
Jeremy was asking questions. The CES Letter was the questions he wrote down for the CES, in the church. He was told by his bishop to write to him!!
Creeps.
Where did you find that podcast? I would like to watch it. (I am new to Jeremy.)
This has been one of my favorite episodes and I’ve seen A LOT of Mormon stories podcasts 😆 even now after thousands of hours of research there were so many great insights and gold nuggets it was amazing!
Outstanding episode with an outstanding team!! Loved every single minute!!! Thank you!!!
The most damaging thing about this "re-education" of members rather than coming clean and apologising for hiding the real history, is that the members who are being innoculated with the seer stone story think those of us have left are making excuses.
The disingenuousness of the church damages families and friendships.
Ya'all nailed so many issues! One of your best episodes ever! Thanks for all you do!
“Letter To My Wives”, coming soon. Written by JS himself.
What’s this? I haven’t heard of this.
@@ryant6134"Letter to my Wife" is basically a more kindly worded CES letter that a guy wrote to his wife.
So this would be a play on that title in the same way that "CES Letters" is a play on "CES Letter"
Around 2% of the "current" world population is considered polygamist! (So were many biblical prophets too) Not every mormon had this role/calling. However it does make great news now adays! (I admit that).
Joseph never had kids with anyone but his wife was only sealed to different women and Jacob chapter 2 clearly states to never have more than 1 wife and 0 concubines. Joseph ran around city to city which is a lie he was part of a treasure finders 1 time on part of a crew and the so called magic is the same so called magic Solomon used. So this is all speculation
@@billiondollarsworthofgame excuses are like a$$holes. We all have them and they stink! Nothing to defend with Joe Smith and his very young brides
Thank you (plural) esp. since I'm Catholic *and* benefit from your hard work, dedication and willingness to share this everyone!
Our pleasure!
When I was a child in California in the mid 60’s our family was surrounded by Mormons and Jehovah Witness. I remember finding The Mormons extremely loving and lovely people and was so disappointed when my mother told me about the hat, the stones and the gold plates. I was only 10 at the time and could not believe that story. I can see why the Mormons covered it up. I believe in the creator . My religion has always been the church of “find your humanity, practice it and don’t act like an asshole.”
Honest people just want the real Joseph Smith to emerge. Bushman, while a believer, can't ignore data. Great to see Sandra and others provide insights.
I just love Sandra Tanner!
Oh my…I’m a grandparent of six grandchildren and removed my name from record at age 62. I also experienced traumatizing emotional abuse from church members when I went through infertility (eventually adopted 2 children).
Here’s what I feel bad about.. because the church constantly has the “All or Nothing” stance, those of us who exercise logic, reason, and being able to repurpose truth claims and beliefs to allegories and symbolisms to be able to try to stay in the church in an honest way become alienated.
I’m 32, been coming back since I was about 30 after a decade long of being inactive, and realize many of the members will not or cannot hear alternative views. I try to help the church out by taking classes at the Institute since let’s be honest, here in the Mormon belt (Idaho, Utah, Nevada), it’s dwindled to only about 20-30 students attending all of it each school semester at any given time and the numbers continue to get smaller. It’s why they try to hound those attending to please sign their petition so they can continue to get funding by the nearby colleges and universities.
You would think they would honor the “we want to hear all sides and want to become an open minded church” statement that they try to promote now, but they don’t. If your views clash with theirs, they immediately try to prove you wrong or say you’re incorrect and if you have church history, archeology, past statements made by previous prophets and general authorities, and dare I say even scripture to back up your position, you are accused of being knit picky and argumentative.
I had a pregnant sister in one of the classes get all emotional and upset when I proved that there are issues in relying on faith alone. I had a brother thank me and openly admit he’s had questions about that but has been too scared to open up about it due to worries of potentially offending others or being asked to leave.
I wonder when the church is gonna grow up and remove lots of its hard stances and be able to welcome all including those of us who aren’t orthodox in the faith..
Amen. It’s time.
The 3 witnesses are the equivalent of a Magician using His Assistant, His Stage manager and his Accountant as witnesses to the authenticity of his Magic. Why not show the plates to impartial people of standing in the community? Of course its a rhetorical question, because they didn't exist.
Like a moth to the flame I’m so drawn to CJ (Caffeinated John). Nice work team. Great episode.
:)
I caught your being live towards the end yesterday. We need you, Dr Dehlin and Mormon Stories! I didn't lose my trust in the church through the CES Letter. I forget when I first learned about the CES letter. I haven't read it yet, but I knew about the issues in the church about 2ish years after converting. Converted 10 years ago (for the wrong reasons) and I wish I hadn't. I stopped attending 2 years ago after aging out of YSA (which now I guess the age range has bumped up as of a few weeks ago), but I know all of my friends who were in the ward I was in have moved on anyway. I would love to tell my story if I could.
Please apply to be on the show @starrbeatlesqueen !!!
docs.google.com/forms/d/1YBPFLEPBIfL6r6nZN54HsupkdJTMI88vUNjZBZ6wsMo/edit
My day has been made. Sandra is such a treasure. Great show.
HE JUST DISCREDITED THE BoA!!! This is a train wreck. How does this not lead people toward leaving the church.
@@TheSaintelias cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics to make it work🤣🤮
I've probably said this in other episode comments, but my parents joined the Church in the mid 60s. When my dad told his mother they were leaving the little non-denominational church they had belonged to for many years, she was furious. Her family originally settled in upstate New York--they were staunch supporters of the Revolution and great friends with Lafayette, who came to stay with them whenever he visited America. Grandma told Dad 'Everyone in the neighborhood knew the Smiths were treasure diggers and fortune tellers, any religion made up by Joe Smith is a lie from start to finish, and you are never to talk about this again in my hearing or I will disown you.'
As for Emma, of course she looked under the cloth. She was a practical New England housewife and she needed to know the truth of what was going on, to make her husband successful. As a result, Emma had to turn a blind eye to a lot of shenanigans, and it made her life miserable.
I tried to read Rough Stone Rolling, but (IMO) it came off as an apologist re-write of No Man Knows My History. As Sandra says, RSR comes closer to the truth but it's still heavily sugar-coated in an attempt to make the bitter pill of the truth palatable.
Thanks for a great discussion! The Mormon Stories team is the best, and with the addition of Sandra Tanner you're unbeatable. Thoroughly enjoyed this episode :)
Loving the challenge to "keep it up" 😂. Additionally, ALWAYS happy to see Queen Tanner ❤, but today was better than I ever could've guessed! Mouth dropped open more than a few times!
This was such, SUCH a blast to watch, I laughed right along with you guys through this at the funniest parts. Thank you for sharing this.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I just can't comprehend the mental gymnastics that Richard Bushman has to go through....
This was so (unintentionally) funny, much better than Rodney Dangerfield. I am a Never Mormon interested in the sect from a social science perspective and very slowly getting through the Book of Mormon. Its pompous pseudo King James English makes it a difficult read. As the LDS church still has the seer stones/crystals/rocks can the current prophet not produce a modern English translation or is that scuppered by the first translator's blatant plagiarism of the original King James Version of the Bible?
Did anyone else feel the “stone in a hat” story sounds like something a two-year-old would make up?
Proud ex mormon of 40 years here. So glad I now am a true follower of the true christ which is God. YHVH
Starting at 16:54.. what Sandra Tanner says is SO important! The church’s roots are in the occult.. period end of story.
When Jesus and his followers were on the earth, they were considered a cult by many (Sadducees + Sanhedrim, phairacess). The scriptures do say "Few be that find the way" (so statistically speaking - that would eliminate many christian denominations, and faiths).
@@nute742the OCCULT
@@yeshalloween is that a good or bad thing (and why)?
Why didn't he use the magic seeing stone to find the missing pages? LMFAO!
I'm not even halfway through yet and I think that'll probably remain my favorite tidbit here.
If, as Bushman says, doing good is what is important, then the golden rule, “do unto others as you would have other do unto you” is all we need. Religions are unimportant.
Always a joy to see Sandra!
If you are “honest in all your dealings” then public scrutiny shouldn’t be an issue. It’s only those people and organizations (I’m looking at you, LDS church) with something to hide who disparage sunlight on their actions.
Thanks Mormon Stories. You've done it again. Well done, from a never-Mormon.
Ok…so isn’t Dan Vogel absolutely amazing and then some!?!??? His scholarship and ethical pursuits just blow my mind and spirit! Dan…I hope to meet you in person sometime soon!
I am nevermo, but developed an interest from watching Big Love. I subscribed to Sandra's newsletter for several years and read all the bboks I could find in my library (of which there were few). It's easy for me to say, as an outsider, that I have a hard time understanding how rational people can believe some of this stuff, especially since the internet and availablity of the info. I did read Rough Stone Rolling, and I am surprised at many of the things Bushman said today. Anyway, I have been a big fan of Sandra, and I am enjoying getting to know some of you other Stars of the Truth! Sandra, your seer stone was hilarious, and John, I just loved your rant! So much fun!
Please give us Coffee with Sandra! 😁👍♥️
Sandra always makes me belly laugh with her plain and simple way of pointing out the absurdities of the official responses and narrative.
And it came to pass in the land of Punxsutawney that the day of Phil's prophecy arrived. The people gathered with great anticipation, eager to learn whether winter would persist or spring would soon come.
And Phil did emerge from his burrow, but on this particular day, he neither saw his shadow nor failed to see it. Instead, he remained hidden and said, “I have neither seen shadow nor light, for the seasons are pretty complicated, but don’t worry it will all make sense in the future. Just remember your secret…I mean sacred handshakes,” he said with a wink.
The people were bewildered, for Phil had given no clear answer, only an ambiguous statement. But he seemed such a nice old Groundhog, in fact almost 100 years old. Surely he could be trusted.
Phil spoke again, “Verily, I am still a seer, for in my ambiguity I have revealed the very nature of uncertainty, much like the weather itself-neither bound to winter nor spring but to the whims of chance.”
And the people, though somewhat amused and confused, still respected Phil, saying, “Even though Phil’s prophecy be as clear as a foggy morning, we shall honor him, for tradition endures, and in blind obedience and betrayed faith we find meaning.”
Thus did Phil continue his role as seer, not for the accuracy of his predictions, but because of his hold on the hearts and minds of the people.
I have Sandra's printed book gifted to me. There's all kinds of gems in there.
This is now officially one of my favorite MSP episodes ! Great job!!
Dan Vogel…Goddamn that Dan Vogel is out of this world! Dear Dan, thank you for being amazing!
17 more years of Sandra!?!?!?!Holy smokes what an incredible blessing to all of us!!!!
Would Bushman really show up on some unknown RUclips channel? I feel it has to be connected to the church.
You guys are great! Sandra is fantastic!! You all make a great team❤
This was so good!! Probably my favorite episode. It was serious I. Pointing out the deception so clearly, but I was also laughing so hard at parts. It really showed how ridiculous it all is!
Omg Gerardo’s comment about why JS didn’t use the stone to find the lost pages hahaha😅😅😅☠️deaaaD
❤❤❤
Gerardo almost always adds some great insights which makes the episode better. I wish he was on more of the shows.
I wish you would have shared Dallin Oaks explaining that salamanders appearing are perfectly logical.
Great episode! The part that discussed how the statement Mormons love “I know the church is true” made a great point. That phrase that was repeated throughout sacrament meeting and constantly repeated by the missionaries weirded me out when I investigated the church. The church being “true” is an extremely high bar and invites all of these criticisms. It’s also culty/manipulative how much it’s repeated over and over.
I love it when John gets fired up. Sandra is hilarious!!!
This!❤
If only the Methodists had let JS into their church!!! He would have become a minister there and never started Mormonism. Wow. History pivots on one moment.
I have been grateful to Richard Bushman for a long time because Rough Stone Rolling started me out of the Church.
A seer, as defined in the Book of Mormon, is one who is commanded to use "interpreters" for the purpose of translating languages and bringing forth hidden truths. If the Q15 are not actively using stones of their own, then they should not be sustained as seers, according to the canonized scriptures of the church.
This podcast will leave you wanting more.
I’d listen to a Sandra Tanner podcast. She has the wisdom and experience that crosses generations.
Starting at Time Stamp for 02:52:15 the highlight of the whole podcast. The ultimate apologist spin and spilling tea.