I appreciate the discussion. There are many reactions out there, surface-level discussions, or lore-heavy discussions, but I come here for the thematic discussion, the philosophical and meaningful messages that the show provides or attempts to convey. You two have deep understanding of Tolkien but the further implementation of the themes and teachable moments and how they pull from other literature is very appreciated.
I really liked the insightful, indepth commentary you both offered. I'm an old school LOTR/Hobbit/Silmarillion loremaster myself, since my childhood when the Rankin+Bass and Ralph Bakshi animated movies were the only major filmic adaptations available. I say, and maintain, that I really like the shifting of Olorin/Gandalf into the 2nd Age, since it will help casual fans to better understand that Gandalf is essentially a guardian Angel who aided the Elves since Elves became a created thing. Regarding Isildur and Estrid, I think Phillip's observation was magnificent. A betrothal is a sacred oath, and in ancient times, in many ancient cultures, it was treated thus, especially in the fictional cultures Tolkien was representing with the Elves and Numenoreans. That Isildur would be the main accomplice in Estrid violating her betrothal oath shows that he puts the pleasure of flesh above what is right, if he pressure is strong enough, and it is foreshadowing of how he will likewise yield to the temptation of the ring as he yields so readily to the temptation of Estrid's flesh. I also think that her betrothed may end up being the king of the dwimmerburg dead, as he would have a very personal reason for betraying Isildur in the way that Isildur, with Estrid, betrayed him.
@@ACriticalDragon Thank you for the solid, deep dive content, the insightful takes and insightful observations with Phillip, and certainly thanks for taking time to read and reply. I'd also like to see ROP do a whole Stephen King level demonic haunting of Khazad-Dum with the Balrog up until he is fully released, since he is literally an fallen Ainu/Maia demon with high sentience and terrifying sorcerous power ( consider his duel with Gandalf for control of the chamber doors to Balin's tomb ). In any event, thanks again for your reply, & God Bless!!!
Thanks for the discussion, here and Rings&Realms have been my Shire in which I could have a sane discussion and some fun while the rest of the world is burning.
You are very welcome. I am looking forward to watching Rings and Realms when I get a chance. I greatly enjoy their analysis. Thanks for watching our chats, I am really pleased that you enjoyed them.
I've thoroughly enjoyed your insightful discussions on the Rings of Power. Its been so refreshing listening to a discussion about the show that doesn't fall into hateful discourse - there is far to much of that. On the mystery box topic, i enjoy it when it is executed well and the mystery is well laid down in the narrative. I think how Wheel of Time and this show has done it has been flawed and at times lazy writing and hasn't really worked, but apart from that, I really enjoy Rings of Power. The Annatar/Celebrimbor stuff has been quality drama.
I am not sure that our discussions rose to the level of insightful, but I will gratefully take the compliment. Thank you for watching. I think WoT's 'who is the dragon?' mystery box worked slightly better than RoP's season one, but I still think it is the 'wrong' focus and detracts from the other threads. My major issue is that the mystery box always seems to end up a primary focus rather than be a piece of background mystery that is slowly resolved. It can steal focus from the events in each episode until it is resolved. Then again, I am not a fan of the technique.
Fun and enlightening discussion as always! I'm always so delighted that y'all are amongst the rare voices that recognize that criticism starts with analysis, not just with like/dislike. I was curious though: maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant, but you seemed to think that Sauron killing Glug was reducible to the "villainous tyrant callously kills the messenger when the news is bad" trope. But I didn't think that was all there was to it - indeed I kinda didn't read that in there at all. To me, it was something very different, and much more thematically resonant: I think Sauron was making an example of someone who dared imply that the welfare of the Uruk was of any significance, that the Uruk were anything but slaves to Sauron's will to dominate (and perhaps even nipping an insurrectionary tendency in the bud). To put it differently (and return directly to the text): Sauron patiently listens to the report as Glug says, "We are overwhelmed, Lord Sauron. The Dwarves have secured the Elves' retreat." It is only when he begins the next statement - "If we pursue, many Uruks - " that he even begins to turn towards him, and then shanks him as soon as he's about to say out loud that Uruks will suffer even greater losses. So, I don't think Sauron kills him for delivering the news that this isn't a complete strategic win (because, after all, it already has been mostly a win for him anyway). Rather, he kills him for daring to suggest that the suffering of the Uruks is a valid reason not to pursue - indeed, for even putting the following of an order to pursue into the conditional form at all. Edit to add: I think there's even a reading of this scene where we can connect it to the S2 prologue. Sauron may well remember that it was the Lord Farquad-esque "some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make" part of his speech that was the last straw in the original Uruk coup. Perhaps now, he has learned his lesson and is extra sensitive to even allowing an Uruk to say out loud that his orders will result in their death. There are no Uruk casualties in Ba Sing Sauron.
Very interesting interpretation. I hadn't considered that. I think that can run concurrently with the villain trope I mentioned. I don't think that they are mutually exclusive. Both interpretations have merit, and neither one cancels out the other. I don't think it is only or just one, it can be both. The suggestion that someone would question or defy his orders, I believe, is something that Sauron will not countenance; not because it could raise potential unrest, but because he believes his authority is absolute. He does not care about the orcs, he doesn't value their lives, and it is not a consideration that merits discussion or time for him. He then demonstrates this by killing one of his own soldiers for having the temerity to speak out of place and to possibly question his orders.
Thanks for the lovely commentsry you guys do on the show! Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts. I have a different opinion on the mystery box element, especially with Halbrand in season 1. I thought it was very clever what they did, because the viewer is being deceived alongside Galadriel. There are so many signals that Halbrand is Sauron, but I chose to ignore them first time around because I liked Halbrand and didnt want him to be evil (reminiscent of what Celebrimbor said). Then on the rewatch you can really see the darkness simmering below the surface of the character and I was captivated by Halbrand almost every scene he was in.
@hundop9195 thanks for watching. I can't help it; I genuinely loathe mystery box storytelling. I enjoyed the Sauron / Celebrimbor thread so much more because the story didn't hide Annatar's true character from the viewer. That level of dramatic irony appeals to me a lot more. However, I am really happy you enjoy it. Life would be dull if we all liked exactly the same things.
I agree. By episode 3 when Halbrand explained how to manipulate people, that was pretty much a slam dunk for Sauron that I just chose to ignore. As for Gandalf, I considered that Mystery Box opened se2ep1 when the Harfoots say "Gand" twice. That was 💯 confirmation for me
Thanks again for doing this. I enjoyed both seasons and found this season to be a big improvement (same for WoT). Between your recaps and House of R it lets me live in the world a little longer and gain a deeper understanding of all things fantasy!
This show has been some of the most fun I’ve been able to have with my family in a while. Sitting down and enjoying the impressive visuals, acting, and certain aspects of the storytelling while also enjoying the goofier stuff and aspects we disagree about accuracy on has led me to looking for videos to hear other people’s thoughts on it. These videos have been great for that, really enjoyed hearing both of your thoughts on the show this season. Thank you for discussing it honestly acknowledging good and bad aspects while also not trying to say it should be enjoyed or hated. It’s really refreshing.
I am really pleased that you have enjoyed our discussions. People will always have individual tastes and preferences, but there is a lot going on in the show and we thought it was worth discussing.
Great discussion. I think Kemen could be the first leader of the black numenorean, the ancestor of the mouth of Sauron. And I though the valley at the end could be Lothlórien, because Elrond speak about the place being protect by the Ring. But probably I'm wrong in both cases.
Though I feel a bit out my depth in providing a comment on this video, seeing that it is between two incredible scholars of fantasy and literature, I have found a unique joy in watching the first two seasons of ROP. As a lifelong devotee to the universe Tolkien has created, I have been watching this show through the eyes of my wife, a person who gives short shrift to my fascination with Middle-Earth. With that being said, this series is one of her favorites. Certainly there are times when I want to shake my head at the way the lore is presented, but I find myself sitting in utter joy watching someone who is unfamiliar with the grander mythos of the saga slowly come to fall in love with this story. Quibbles aside, to hear the name Manwe spoken aloud on a legitimate television show and to see Tom Bombadil brought to life forces me to smile. If anything, I hope Season 2 is an auspicious entry in the seasons to come. Cheers to both A.P. and Dr. Chase. You have both provided me with hours of education as well as entertainment. Thank you.
Thank you guys so much for all your commentary. I've enjoyed this season quite a bit even though I thought the pace was uneven in places. The Harfoot/Stranger story mostly bored me this season, although they were 3 of my favorite characters last season. The other story lines did not disappoint despite some nitpicks. For example, I could not care less about the Isildur love triangle. Here's looking forward to the next season!
Jumping off of the thematic links between storylines here: Adar's murder and him calling out to his kids just to have Slimeface Sauron go "they're not children anymore" was devastating enough but it also immediately threw me back to the reconciliation scene between king and prince Durin, specifically the part about how miners' hits land hard and the line "wait until your children grow up". Oof it's still upsetting! There's a clear parallel in how these father&son relationships are portrayed and developed, how one informs the viewing of another. The main difference between the two being that in one case the sins of the father were forgiven, the son reached out which led king Durin to realize his mistake and repent. In the other case, forgivness wasn't granted and even though Orks will regret that soon, they ultimately can't be faulted for turning away from Adar. And the same parallel unfolding of the storylines can be seen in season 1 with Halbrand/Sauron and the Stranger/Gandalf. Coming into one's power, questioning the nature of it and what they had done with it, shunning it and then embracing it at the end after choosing who they'll ally themselves with/against; their arcs are the same, just with different outcomes. Which I found very fitting and why I don't mind the Gandalf reveal, he is Sauron's foil in the books after all. Or at least that's how I always saw them. Thank you for the great discussions, I always enjoy listening to your thematic analysis as well as critique of the show.
This season looked excellent, the acting was spot on, I enjoyed it for what they could show me, but given the constraints on what they could or couldn't do I don't understand why they chose to cover as many story lines as they did. I personally would have concentrated solely on the elves, dwarves, orcs and sauron. Also most people don't have the inclination or time to reflect on a show and be nuanced in their praise or criticism hence the amount of "it was amazing" or "it was bad writing I hate it" types of reaction. As ever it was great to listen to you and philip chat.
I enjoyed this season overall, and I wanted to make a remark regarding "bad writing". I think this accusation is definitely valid in at least two regards: Firstly, the motivations of several key players are hard to comprehend if not outright irrational. Secondly, inconsequential events are given screentime whereas dramatic story developments happen completly offscreen. For example, I cannot deduce why Sauron baited Adar into attacking Eregion when he needs Celebrimbor to forge the rings for him. What does he gain by risking a premature ending to his most important project? What does he gain by destroying a realm whose denizens look up to him as an authority? It completely goes against the whole original purpose of Annatar - at least according to Tolkien - that was a ploy to woo the Elves over without overt violence. And why does Adar assume that the Elves are in an alliance with Sauron? Based on Halbrand's claim whom he simultaneously presumes to be a liar (hence he has him followed)? Why does the Dark Wizard send his Gaudrim after Gandalf and Nori and Poppy when seemingly he only wants to talk to him, which he later achieves without aid from his underlings? Why does he leave Gandalf be after giving a short and empty speech? Why does Durin III, previously a very cautious person, suddenly feel the need for a suicidal action disguised as heroism? Maybe you can come up with answers for these and many more questions, but they require tiring mental exercises. While at the same time, the straightforward answer to all of these questions seems to be "because the screenplay demanded it". I do think you can call it bad writing when you feel the writer's hand hovering above scene after scene. Conversely, Tolkien was a good writer in the sense that the motivations of his characters effortlessly leads them into the situations the writers wants them to place in, without the reader scratching his head or second-guessing the creditability of characters on rereading his stories. Regarding the second criticism, I try to keep it to one example. Pharazôn usurps power and destroys a royal lineage that lasted more than three millenia at the whim of a fickle crowd. The same fickle crowd who rehabilitates Miríel one episode later. Only for Pharazôn to then definitely seize power off-screen, and without giving us so much as a clue as to how he did it. Also, speaking with show viewers who have not read any Tolkien, it was utterly unclear to them for what each faction in Numenor stands for and why they are at odds. I would say that the show is often quite bad at conveying what it wants to be important and what it wants to be secondary. This I can name bad writing, too. Despite the bad writing, I enjoyed it. But I also I cannot help but wonder why two disciples of J.J. Abrams were given the honour realising this adaptation. They do not live up to it, I would say. Unlike some of the more rabid Tolkien fans I am not angry or bitter about this however, the glass is still half full when it comes to this show.
But my point was, elements of the writing can be described as bad, but there are other elements that can be described as good. When people say 'the writing is bad' they are using an absolute generalization with no acknowledgement of any of the good elements. So what is said means 'All the writing is bad', when, as you point out, there are elements that people could say are weak, incomplete, failed, didn't fully succeed, and so forth, but there are also elements that are good. My issue is with these overly reductive declarative statements that are empty of nuance or any element of thoughtful analysis because that is basically 'my thing'. People have every right to express their opinion, luckily that term 'everyone' also includes me. :)
@@ACriticalDragon I'm actually baffled about my own lecturing rereading the comment xD Seems like I missed what you actually meant to say, but it was only a trigger to express some thoughts that bothered me somewhat until I could put them into written word. Maybe I tried to deduce what the average critic who'd support that flat statement actually meant. There are different layers to analyse for a given medium and in that regard, I found it inspiring to hear your conversations that focussed on themes. Somehow many people rather judge the multitude of plot points over observing themes, and I don't know why one layer is judged (without keen observation) and the other is analysed (without the imminent seeming necessity for judgement). I too dislike overly reductive statements. Another one of these would be "the music is amazing". I read that almost as often as the one slamming the writing, and I really don't understand what that is actually supposed to mean: Amazing how, why, when? Simplifications stifle any fruitful discussion if they become a creed, and the reception of this show is very frustrating in the sense that many viewers are rigid and bitter in their overly reductive statements and defensive about them. A strange mixture of stiff seriousness and intellectual complacency creeps in too often when people discuss this show. Gosh, that wordiness again. I hope I didn't bore you. I do just want to mention again that Philipp's and your look at themes rather than deviations from the sacrosanct 'lore' and the show's plot was refreshing and an eye-opener to me.
That is great to hear. I am glad that someone enjoyed them. Unfortunately, they are just not to my taste, but then again, if the show delivered exactly what I wanted, then maybe you wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. Thanks for watching.
Weirdly enough, the twist reveal in The Usual Suspects annoyed me a little bit. I had discounted it as too obvious, and was really hoping that Gabriel Byrne's character was in cahoots with Kevin Spacey's character, and they had made up Keyser Sóze as a way to provide cover for a criminal enterprise.
The series has spent 2 seasons on the Hobbit and Gandalf story and I cannot bring myself to care. I love every other storyline in this season (even Arondir and Isildur who were pretty neglected) but I am bored by this one. I don't see how the Hobbits can contribute to the greater story from now on and I hope they are left alone for a while, and I am even less interested in the Gandalf story without them. Is the entirety of the next season going to be Gandalf training to defeat the Blue Wizard? I don't see how he can beat the Blue Wizard AND link up with the rest of the story in a single season at the pace they have been taking his plot.
They have a five season arc, so it will be interesting to see what they do to pull things together over that time frame. But I have enjoyed the majority of the other arcs, so I am willing to extend patience to wait and see. We will have the full picture once the entire show is done. Thanks for watching.
@@pokefreakplays Hm I hope you wouldn't take it that hard :) I have doubts that they even have the rights for the blue wizards, they are not named in the appendices (and neither the Silmarillion, from where they sourced the name Annatar). Gandalf did not arrive in Middle-Earth during the Second Age, he never went East (except for an obscure text), he didn't fall from the sky, he was never confused about his mission or suffered a fundamental memory loss, he did not learn pity from the Hobbits, his staff was never important, and most certainly did he not learn about the Secret Fire from Tom Bombadil. So I think it would be bold to assume that the showrunners would adapt a (conflicted, roughly sketched) storyline that is only to be found in two of Tolkien's letters instead of doing what they always do: change the story of a known character to fit their purposes. Just remember how baseless (with regards to Tolkien's writings) everything concerning Galadriel and Saubrand in Season 1 was. Or Mithril. Or having two Durins at once. In other words, with everything I experienced with this show, I don't make predictions based on what seems sensible to me. I make predictions based on what seems to be too obvious for most readers' liking.
I have come to the conclusion that the writing is bad because of the hackneyed dialog, the numerous internal inconsistencies and plot holes, the countless callbacks to the movie trilogies, and the failure of any of the numerous plot lines to engage or entertain over two entire seasons. We regularly rewatch Peter Jackson's trilogies, but just as we haven't rewatched season 1, we won't ever be revisiting season 2 either.
@janatman as is your right. Although it is worth pointing out that Jackson also included hackneyed dialogue, plot holes, and inconsistencies, and made a number of callbacks to the Bakshi animated film. It becomes a question of balance, and it is clear that the balance in RoP is not one that you enjoy. But if you are not enjoying it, then not watching it seems the best course of action. Life is too short to spend time watching a show that isn't entertaining you. I hope you enjoyed our discussions at least.
@@ACriticalDragon Very much, so many thanks to you both for sharing your reflections. Just as with season 1, I've enjoyed the discussions about the show more than actual show itself and appreciate the opportunity to learn about the original lore which I haven't read.
![Quando Rondo - Grow Up [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/8zFnCg3BO4Q/mqdefault.jpg)
I appreciate the discussion. There are many reactions out there, surface-level discussions, or lore-heavy discussions, but I come here for the thematic discussion, the philosophical and meaningful messages that the show provides or attempts to convey. You two have deep understanding of Tolkien but the further implementation of the themes and teachable moments and how they pull from other literature is very appreciated.
I am glad that you enjoyed the discussions and got something useful from them.
Thanks for watching.
I really liked the insightful, indepth commentary you both offered. I'm an old school LOTR/Hobbit/Silmarillion loremaster myself, since my childhood when the Rankin+Bass and Ralph Bakshi animated movies were the only major filmic adaptations available. I say, and maintain, that I really like the shifting of Olorin/Gandalf into the 2nd Age, since it will help casual fans to better understand that Gandalf is essentially a guardian Angel who aided the Elves since Elves became a created thing.
Regarding Isildur and Estrid, I think Phillip's observation was magnificent. A betrothal is a sacred oath, and in ancient times, in many ancient cultures, it was treated thus, especially in the fictional cultures Tolkien was representing with the Elves and Numenoreans. That Isildur would be the main accomplice in Estrid violating her betrothal oath shows that he puts the pleasure of flesh above what is right, if he pressure is strong enough, and it is foreshadowing of how he will likewise yield to the temptation of the ring as he yields so readily to the temptation of Estrid's flesh. I also think that her betrothed may end up being the king of the dwimmerburg dead, as he would have a very personal reason for betraying Isildur in the way that Isildur, with Estrid, betrayed him.
I hadn't considered the jilted ex being the King of the Dead. That it is a really interesting thought. Thanks for watching and the great point.
@@ACriticalDragon Thank you for the solid, deep dive content, the insightful takes and insightful observations with Phillip, and certainly thanks for taking time to read and reply. I'd also like to see ROP do a whole Stephen King level demonic haunting of Khazad-Dum with the Balrog up until he is fully released, since he is literally an fallen Ainu/Maia demon with high sentience and terrifying sorcerous power ( consider his duel with Gandalf for control of the chamber doors to Balin's tomb ). In any event, thanks again for your reply, & God Bless!!!
Thanks for the discussion, here and Rings&Realms have been my Shire in which I could have a sane discussion and some fun while the rest of the world is burning.
You are very welcome. I am looking forward to watching Rings and Realms when I get a chance. I greatly enjoy their analysis. Thanks for watching our chats, I am really pleased that you enjoyed them.
I'd love for them to do a collaboration with the Rings and Realms gang. It would be the best of the best
I've thoroughly enjoyed your insightful discussions on the Rings of Power. Its been so refreshing listening to a discussion about the show that doesn't fall into hateful discourse - there is far to much of that.
On the mystery box topic, i enjoy it when it is executed well and the mystery is well laid down in the narrative. I think how Wheel of Time and this show has done it has been flawed and at times lazy writing and hasn't really worked, but apart from that, I really enjoy Rings of Power. The Annatar/Celebrimbor stuff has been quality drama.
I am not sure that our discussions rose to the level of insightful, but I will gratefully take the compliment. Thank you for watching.
I think WoT's 'who is the dragon?' mystery box worked slightly better than RoP's season one, but I still think it is the 'wrong' focus and detracts from the other threads.
My major issue is that the mystery box always seems to end up a primary focus rather than be a piece of background mystery that is slowly resolved. It can steal focus from the events in each episode until it is resolved.
Then again, I am not a fan of the technique.
Fun and enlightening discussion as always! I'm always so delighted that y'all are amongst the rare voices that recognize that criticism starts with analysis, not just with like/dislike.
I was curious though: maybe I'm misinterpreting what you meant, but you seemed to think that Sauron killing Glug was reducible to the "villainous tyrant callously kills the messenger when the news is bad" trope. But I didn't think that was all there was to it - indeed I kinda didn't read that in there at all. To me, it was something very different, and much more thematically resonant: I think Sauron was making an example of someone who dared imply that the welfare of the Uruk was of any significance, that the Uruk were anything but slaves to Sauron's will to dominate (and perhaps even nipping an insurrectionary tendency in the bud).
To put it differently (and return directly to the text): Sauron patiently listens to the report as Glug says, "We are overwhelmed, Lord Sauron. The Dwarves have secured the Elves' retreat." It is only when he begins the next statement - "If we pursue, many Uruks - " that he even begins to turn towards him, and then shanks him as soon as he's about to say out loud that Uruks will suffer even greater losses. So, I don't think Sauron kills him for delivering the news that this isn't a complete strategic win (because, after all, it already has been mostly a win for him anyway). Rather, he kills him for daring to suggest that the suffering of the Uruks is a valid reason not to pursue - indeed, for even putting the following of an order to pursue into the conditional form at all.
Edit to add: I think there's even a reading of this scene where we can connect it to the S2 prologue. Sauron may well remember that it was the Lord Farquad-esque "some of you may die, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make" part of his speech that was the last straw in the original Uruk coup. Perhaps now, he has learned his lesson and is extra sensitive to even allowing an Uruk to say out loud that his orders will result in their death. There are no Uruk casualties in Ba Sing Sauron.
Very interesting interpretation. I hadn't considered that. I think that can run concurrently with the villain trope I mentioned. I don't think that they are mutually exclusive.
Both interpretations have merit, and neither one cancels out the other. I don't think it is only or just one, it can be both.
The suggestion that someone would question or defy his orders, I believe, is something that Sauron will not countenance; not because it could raise potential unrest, but because he believes his authority is absolute. He does not care about the orcs, he doesn't value their lives, and it is not a consideration that merits discussion or time for him. He then demonstrates this by killing one of his own soldiers for having the temerity to speak out of place and to possibly question his orders.
Watching you guys has also greatly enhanced my enjoyment and understanding of the series as well, so thank you!
You are very welcome. I am happy that Philip and I could add to your enjoyment.
Thanks for the lovely commentsry you guys do on the show! Always a pleasure to hear your thoughts.
I have a different opinion on the mystery box element, especially with Halbrand in season 1. I thought it was very clever what they did, because the viewer is being deceived alongside Galadriel. There are so many signals that Halbrand is Sauron, but I chose to ignore them first time around because I liked Halbrand and didnt want him to be evil (reminiscent of what Celebrimbor said). Then on the rewatch you can really see the darkness simmering below the surface of the character and I was captivated by Halbrand almost every scene he was in.
@hundop9195 thanks for watching. I can't help it; I genuinely loathe mystery box storytelling. I enjoyed the Sauron / Celebrimbor thread so much more because the story didn't hide Annatar's true character from the viewer. That level of dramatic irony appeals to me a lot more.
However, I am really happy you enjoy it. Life would be dull if we all liked exactly the same things.
I agree. By episode 3 when Halbrand explained how to manipulate people, that was pretty much a slam dunk for Sauron that I just chose to ignore.
As for Gandalf, I considered that Mystery Box opened se2ep1 when the Harfoots say "Gand" twice. That was 💯 confirmation for me
Thanks again for doing this. I enjoyed both seasons and found this season to be a big improvement (same for WoT). Between your recaps and House of R it lets me live in the world a little longer and gain a deeper understanding of all things fantasy!
@nickdeboer4182 thank you very much, I am glad that you enjoyed the discussions.
I love this episode so much!
Thank you both for doing this, it's been a pleasure to listen to a discussion free of all the bs surrounding this show
You are very welcome; thank you for watching. It is really nice to know that at least some people enjoyed our discussions.
This show has been some of the most fun I’ve been able to have with my family in a while. Sitting down and enjoying the impressive visuals, acting, and certain aspects of the storytelling while also enjoying the goofier stuff and aspects we disagree about accuracy on has led me to looking for videos to hear other people’s thoughts on it. These videos have been great for that, really enjoyed hearing both of your thoughts on the show this season. Thank you for discussing it honestly acknowledging good and bad aspects while also not trying to say it should be enjoyed or hated. It’s really refreshing.
I am really pleased that you have enjoyed our discussions.
People will always have individual tastes and preferences, but there is a lot going on in the show and we thought it was worth discussing.
Great discussion. I think Kemen could be the first leader of the black numenorean, the ancestor of the mouth of Sauron. And I though the valley at the end could be Lothlórien, because Elrond speak about the place being protect by the Ring. But probably I'm wrong in both cases.
Interesting theories... we will have to see who ends up being right 😁 but as long as Philip is always wrong, I will be happy. 😎
Though I feel a bit out my depth in providing a comment on this video, seeing that it is between two incredible scholars of fantasy and literature, I have found a unique joy in watching the first two seasons of ROP. As a lifelong devotee to the universe Tolkien has created, I have been watching this show through the eyes of my wife, a person who gives short shrift to my fascination with Middle-Earth. With that being said, this series is one of her favorites. Certainly there are times when I want to shake my head at the way the lore is presented, but I find myself sitting in utter joy watching someone who is unfamiliar with the grander mythos of the saga slowly come to fall in love with this story. Quibbles aside, to hear the name Manwe spoken aloud on a legitimate television show and to see Tom Bombadil brought to life forces me to smile. If anything, I hope Season 2 is an auspicious entry in the seasons to come. Cheers to both A.P. and Dr. Chase. You have both provided me with hours of education as well as entertainment. Thank you.
Thank you very much.
It is really wonderful that your wife is enjoying the show and it is now something that you can share. All the very best to you.
Thank you guys so much for all your commentary.
I've enjoyed this season quite a bit even though I thought the pace was uneven in places.
The Harfoot/Stranger story mostly bored me this season, although they were 3 of my favorite characters last season.
The other story lines did not disappoint despite some nitpicks. For example, I could not care less about the Isildur love triangle.
Here's looking forward to the next season!
@andreamiller3578 thank you very much for watching along with us. I hope that Philip and I will be commenting on season 3 when it rolls around.
Jumping off of the thematic links between storylines here:
Adar's murder and him calling out to his kids just to have Slimeface Sauron go "they're not children anymore" was devastating enough but it also immediately threw me back to the reconciliation scene between king and prince Durin, specifically the part about how miners' hits land hard and the line "wait until your children grow up". Oof it's still upsetting!
There's a clear parallel in how these father&son relationships are portrayed and developed, how one informs the viewing of another.
The main difference between the two being that in one case the sins of the father were forgiven, the son reached out which led king Durin to realize his mistake and repent. In the other case, forgivness wasn't granted and even though Orks will regret that soon, they ultimately can't be faulted for turning away from Adar.
And the same parallel unfolding of the storylines can be seen in season 1 with Halbrand/Sauron and the Stranger/Gandalf. Coming into one's power, questioning the nature of it and what they had done with it, shunning it and then embracing it at the end after choosing who they'll ally themselves with/against; their arcs are the same, just with different outcomes. Which I found very fitting and why I don't mind the Gandalf reveal, he is Sauron's foil in the books after all. Or at least that's how I always saw them.
Thank you for the great discussions, I always enjoy listening to your thematic analysis as well as critique of the show.
@@Aa_Mm that is a fantastic point. Thank you. That is really great.
This season looked excellent, the acting was spot on, I enjoyed it for what they could show me, but given the constraints on what they could or couldn't do I don't understand why they chose to cover as many story lines as they did. I personally would have concentrated solely on the elves, dwarves, orcs and sauron.
Also most people don't have the inclination or time to reflect on a show and be nuanced in their praise or criticism hence the amount of "it was amazing" or "it was bad writing I hate it" types of reaction.
As ever it was great to listen to you and philip chat.
I am very happy that you got at least some enjoyment from it. Thank you for watching, I am glad that Philip and I entertained at least a little.
Kemen…..finally we know where Boris Johnson came from…good heavens he looks like a Tory MP doesn’t he :-)
Kemen de Pfeffel ... hmmm seems familiar 🤣
At least he pronounces Isildur's name correctly, which is something even most so-called Tolkien experts mess up all the time.
I enjoyed this season overall, and I wanted to make a remark regarding "bad writing". I think this accusation is definitely valid in at least two regards: Firstly, the motivations of several key players are hard to comprehend if not outright irrational. Secondly, inconsequential events are given screentime whereas dramatic story developments happen completly offscreen.
For example, I cannot deduce why Sauron baited Adar into attacking Eregion when he needs Celebrimbor to forge the rings for him. What does he gain by risking a premature ending to his most important project? What does he gain by destroying a realm whose denizens look up to him as an authority? It completely goes against the whole original purpose of Annatar - at least according to Tolkien - that was a ploy to woo the Elves over without overt violence. And why does Adar assume that the Elves are in an alliance with Sauron? Based on Halbrand's claim whom he simultaneously presumes to be a liar (hence he has him followed)? Why does the Dark Wizard send his Gaudrim after Gandalf and Nori and Poppy when seemingly he only wants to talk to him, which he later achieves without aid from his underlings? Why does he leave Gandalf be after giving a short and empty speech? Why does Durin III, previously a very cautious person, suddenly feel the need for a suicidal action disguised as heroism?
Maybe you can come up with answers for these and many more questions, but they require tiring mental exercises. While at the same time, the straightforward answer to all of these questions seems to be "because the screenplay demanded it". I do think you can call it bad writing when you feel the writer's hand hovering above scene after scene. Conversely, Tolkien was a good writer in the sense that the motivations of his characters effortlessly leads them into the situations the writers wants them to place in, without the reader scratching his head or second-guessing the creditability of characters on rereading his stories.
Regarding the second criticism, I try to keep it to one example. Pharazôn usurps power and destroys a royal lineage that lasted more than three millenia at the whim of a fickle crowd. The same fickle crowd who rehabilitates Miríel one episode later. Only for Pharazôn to then definitely seize power off-screen, and without giving us so much as a clue as to how he did it. Also, speaking with show viewers who have not read any Tolkien, it was utterly unclear to them for what each faction in Numenor stands for and why they are at odds.
I would say that the show is often quite bad at conveying what it wants to be important and what it wants to be secondary. This I can name bad writing, too.
Despite the bad writing, I enjoyed it. But I also I cannot help but wonder why two disciples of J.J. Abrams were given the honour realising this adaptation. They do not live up to it, I would say. Unlike some of the more rabid Tolkien fans I am not angry or bitter about this however, the glass is still half full when it comes to this show.
But my point was, elements of the writing can be described as bad, but there are other elements that can be described as good. When people say 'the writing is bad' they are using an absolute generalization with no acknowledgement of any of the good elements. So what is said means 'All the writing is bad', when, as you point out, there are elements that people could say are weak, incomplete, failed, didn't fully succeed, and so forth, but there are also elements that are good.
My issue is with these overly reductive declarative statements that are empty of nuance or any element of thoughtful analysis because that is basically 'my thing'.
People have every right to express their opinion, luckily that term 'everyone' also includes me. :)
@@ACriticalDragon I'm actually baffled about my own lecturing rereading the comment xD Seems like I missed what you actually meant to say, but it was only a trigger to express some thoughts that bothered me somewhat until I could put them into written word. Maybe I tried to deduce what the average critic who'd support that flat statement actually meant.
There are different layers to analyse for a given medium and in that regard, I found it inspiring to hear your conversations that focussed on themes. Somehow many people rather judge the multitude of plot points over observing themes, and I don't know why one layer is judged (without keen observation) and the other is analysed (without the imminent seeming necessity for judgement).
I too dislike overly reductive statements. Another one of these would be "the music is amazing". I read that almost as often as the one slamming the writing, and I really don't understand what that is actually supposed to mean: Amazing how, why, when?
Simplifications stifle any fruitful discussion if they become a creed, and the reception of this show is very frustrating in the sense that many viewers are rigid and bitter in their overly reductive statements and defensive about them. A strange mixture of stiff seriousness and intellectual complacency creeps in too often when people discuss this show.
Gosh, that wordiness again. I hope I didn't bore you. I do just want to mention again that Philipp's and your look at themes rather than deviations from the sacrosanct 'lore' and the show's plot was refreshing and an eye-opener to me.
I love the Gandalf/Harfoots story! I also enjoyed the mystery surrounding the stranger.
That is great to hear.
I am glad that someone enjoyed them. Unfortunately, they are just not to my taste, but then again, if the show delivered exactly what I wanted, then maybe you wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. Thanks for watching.
A Kaiser soze type reveal Gandalf was not..
Weirdly enough, the twist reveal in The Usual Suspects annoyed me a little bit. I had discounted it as too obvious, and was really hoping that Gabriel Byrne's character was in cahoots with Kevin Spacey's character, and they had made up Keyser Sóze as a way to provide cover for a criminal enterprise.
Comment for the algorithm!
Thank you :)
The series has spent 2 seasons on the Hobbit and Gandalf story and I cannot bring myself to care. I love every other storyline in this season (even Arondir and Isildur who were pretty neglected) but I am bored by this one. I don't see how the Hobbits can contribute to the greater story from now on and I hope they are left alone for a while, and I am even less interested in the Gandalf story without them. Is the entirety of the next season going to be Gandalf training to defeat the Blue Wizard? I don't see how he can beat the Blue Wizard AND link up with the rest of the story in a single season at the pace they have been taking his plot.
They have a five season arc, so it will be interesting to see what they do to pull things together over that time frame. But I have enjoyed the majority of the other arcs, so I am willing to extend patience to wait and see. We will have the full picture once the entire show is done.
Thanks for watching.
Blue Wizard? You must mean Saruman.
@@Crafty_Spirit If it is Saruman I will lose all interest in that story. That would be a massive retcon and would ruin that story IMO
@@pokefreakplays Hm I hope you wouldn't take it that hard :) I have doubts that they even have the rights for the blue wizards, they are not named in the appendices (and neither the Silmarillion, from where they sourced the name Annatar).
Gandalf did not arrive in Middle-Earth during the Second Age, he never went East (except for an obscure text), he didn't fall from the sky, he was never confused about his mission or suffered a fundamental memory loss, he did not learn pity from the Hobbits, his staff was never important, and most certainly did he not learn about the Secret Fire from Tom Bombadil. So I think it would be bold to assume that the showrunners would adapt a (conflicted, roughly sketched) storyline that is only to be found in two of Tolkien's letters instead of doing what they always do: change the story of a known character to fit their purposes.
Just remember how baseless (with regards to Tolkien's writings) everything concerning Galadriel and Saubrand in Season 1 was. Or Mithril. Or having two Durins at once.
In other words, with everything I experienced with this show, I don't make predictions based on what seems sensible to me. I make predictions based on what seems to be too obvious for most readers' liking.
@@Crafty_Spirit It definitely changes LotR by having Gandalf appear earlier. But Saruman would cause the events of LotR to play out very differently.
I will be sad when they will not renew for a third season
There seems to be some indication that they are renewing for season 3, and have hired an almost entirely new writers' room.
So I am hopeful.
I have come to the conclusion that the writing is bad because of the hackneyed dialog, the numerous internal inconsistencies and plot holes, the countless callbacks to the movie trilogies, and the failure of any of the numerous plot lines to engage or entertain over two entire seasons. We regularly rewatch Peter Jackson's trilogies, but just as we haven't rewatched season 1, we won't ever be revisiting season 2 either.
@janatman as is your right.
Although it is worth pointing out that Jackson also included hackneyed dialogue, plot holes, and inconsistencies, and made a number of callbacks to the Bakshi animated film. It becomes a question of balance, and it is clear that the balance in RoP is not one that you enjoy.
But if you are not enjoying it, then not watching it seems the best course of action.
Life is too short to spend time watching a show that isn't entertaining you.
I hope you enjoyed our discussions at least.
@@ACriticalDragon Very much, so many thanks to you both for sharing your reflections. Just as with season 1, I've enjoyed the discussions about the show more than actual show itself and appreciate the opportunity to learn about the original lore which I haven't read.
@janatman thanks for watching. I am glad that you enjoyed that at least. 😀