I highly enjoyed the Entwife section, but remain indifferent to Tom Bombadil. I'm just ready for The Stranger to finally figure his stuff out. We're almost halfway through the season. As my grandma used to say, "Time's a-wastin."
@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy always a pleasure to discuss this with you. I think we both enjoyed episode 5 more than this one. But there was still great stuff in this episode.
Its interesting her your perspectives. As someone who has only read The Hobbit and watched the films (and now this series) I didn't have the same complaints you both did about retreading old ground. I had heard so much about Tom over the years I loved the scenes with him in it, and the mysterious magical things happening around him. In fact, I loved a lot of the mysterious elements to this episode (magic mysterious that is). The Ents, the strange quicksand monster, the barrow wights. A lot of this season has been pretty quick so a little bit of a slower episode where we get to explore and experience a few more things was much appreciated for both myself and my partner. I do have lots of issues with the Harfoot story. I love Nori and Poppi and I think they are doing their best, but its so hard for them to not just feel like a distraction from the main story, now more than ever with them being away from The Stranger. I just can't see how they make sense within the wider story. Hobbits were important in Tolkeins stories because they grounded the story with a more relatable character, one more pure of heart and incorruptible. If they are meant to be here to prevent The Stranger from being corrupted, then why aren't we seeing more internal conflict with him when they are not around? Instead he is acting just about the same as always. And when The Stranger does meet up with the greater world, how will they still be useful for that cause?
@@pokefreakplays it just goes to show that likes and enjoyment are entirely personal. You enjoyed something that Philip and grumbled at. That is the nature of a broad audience. I am glad you enjoyed it.
@@ACriticalDragon It might be that the show creators are assuming that a lot of their audience hasn't read the books or seen the many films (that Russian one is something else!), in which case they won't notice the odd things you two did. And didn't the stranger use that "back to the shadows" line in an earlier episode?
Overall I enjoy the show very much. I didn’t mind what they did with Bombadil, and was happy to see them try. Same with the Entwife, which I liked a lot. They are making choices and taking risks, and I can respect it. However, ep4 did feel disjointed. When I finished that episode, my first impression was that it felt like several things put together just to get it on-screen and it felt out of place from the rest of the season. Still a very good show for me though. Enjoying the discussion between you.
@sionat29 I am enjoying the show as well. It has been highly entertaining for me. This episode seemed to highlight the structural issues I have with the show. But overall I am enjoying it.
Yeah, while the “Barrow Wraiths” in this episode clearly is referring to the Barrow Wraiths in “The Fellowship” and Professor Chase is quite right that those were remnants of the Divided Succesor Nations of Arnor in the Third Age affected by the Witch King, there were also tombs and barrows of those Men & Elves who perished traveling from the East to the West in the First Age. Also, some mentioned to me that the Elvish name of area the map literally means “Borrows of the Dead”, so Elrond & Galadriel’s team should have suspected it!😅
I wish you'd pushed further past your initial reaction against the LOTR references and gotten into what thematic work they were doing. Rings and Realms also disliked some of this at first, but when they sat with it for a while they found some interesting interpretive ideas. For instance, the long shot on Bombadil's face isn't just a "see what we did there, recognize this guy?" - it's intentionally an uncomfortable pause that reflects how the encounter with a being that pre-exists and floats above worldly evil is itself a kind of pause in the action of the plot, a pause that is itself necessary in order to reflect and reevaluate and find your way. And likewise, they found value in how this adaptation of Tom with the predatory tree was much more a matter of respectfully calming down someone grumpy (like a touchy horse who's been approached clumsily), rather than disciplining a corrupted presence as their original reading of LOTR had felt; indeed, they ultimately appreciated it as a reframing of that book scene, showing them an angle on it that they'd never noticed before. Anyway, I'm only expressing this here because I am usually so appreciative of your insights and perspectives on these kinds of adaptations (I particularly enjoyed your WoT S2 analysis), and I'm sure we've missed out on some cool ideas you could've had if you'd pushed past the your initial feeling of cheap pandering (which, again, is legit! I felt that way a bit too, at first!). Glad to hear that you liked 205 more, and I hope you're enjoying 206 and looking forward to sharing your thoughts about it with us!
In this instance I don't agree with Dr. Olsen. I wasn't just reacting to how long the shot lingered, but also at the colour correction, and the movement of the action to face the audience. The style was reminiscent of a 1980s cast introduction. If the show's intention was to hold a long pause in the movement of plot, to make us reconsider and recontextualise all that has come before, that would require the previous episodes (and this episode) to have built up momentum of plot, so that the enforced pause would have resonance and meaning. Given the disjointed nature of both this episode, and the fact that the show is trying very hard to balance plot movement, this argument doesn't hold for me. I appreciated Dr. Olsen's argument, and I thought it was interesting, but I don't think the evidence is there in the narrative structure that was put forward. So I didn't think it was 'pandering', but I think they really were going for that effect of the moment of reveal. Pausing for a reveal to let the viewer take it in is a common effect and trope to use. So with Occam's razor firmly in hand, I think that is more likely the more accurate interpretation of the scene. As to many of the other examples, for instance 'Old Man Ironwood', Dr. Olsen's point about how this recontextualises the Old Man Willow scene, is great. But recreating the Willow scene as a 'memberberry' would do the same thing given that recall in new context creates that effect as a natural by-product. So whether it was intended by the show runners to specifically create that effect or it is merely a by product of presenting something familiar, the result in the viewer is much the same. One thing I enjoy about the show is that they reuse, recall, and reframe many of the events of the LotR books. I actively enjoy that (as I did with the Palantir scene with Miriel). But in this episode it did come across as too many readily identifiable moments. I don't think they are simply 'look at that, I know that' moments, but with so many, it became (at least to me) a tiresome overplaying of the same technique. So to your original point, this wasn't my initial reaction. I do think about these things, I just didn't come to the same conclusion as Dr. Olsen. Although I am very grateful for both his and Dr. Parke's astute and interesting analyses (not just the things we agree on, but also the things we don't) as it always gives me an new appreciation and way of considering the text in question. I tend to watch Rings and Realms quite sometime after Philip and I record. So I have yet to watch the episode 5 commentary.
Great discussion. I really enjoyed it. I liked the episode much more than you Tom Bombadill above all, but I appreciate your analyses. About the messangers, I think the elves found only the horses with Lindon colors. They needed to find the cilinder to be sure who rided the horses. But I can be wrong, or misunderstood what you were saiyng. Thank you
I'm enjoying these chats. I am the most peripheral "consumer" of ROP, so I won't comment on that. One thing I'd urge on AP is that criticism is of its nature subjective; you don't have to apologise for that. Criticism is part of the humanities, which by definition are about human experience and therefore subjective. There can however be agreed-on criteria, terminology, "ways to read" and so on, and good criticism will explain itself in such terms. (Gore Vidal, Clive James and Orwell are the gold standard for me). Sorry to be pompous. OK one niggle: the writers clearly don't know the Withywindle is a river (the same mistake is in the publicity). I'm also fairly sure they don't know what downs are; we see a barrow, but not downs.
A.P is there an equivalent in writing for a "Jump Cut?" A character rapidly covering time or events in a short span of Chapters. Or say move around the map and be at different places one chapter after another because the author does not transition the change?
I totally agree with the reviewers in just about everything they say :-) But Bombadil being characterised as a fat English middle aged farmer with a fake Somerset accent is utterly ridiculous. Here is Tolkein’ mythos character, almost more spirit than even the elves; apart from any other living being, and you make him a fake human caricature of a farmer? I was so disappointed when Jackson left him out of the films but I understood why: what I don’t get, with all the power of cgi these day, that all they could come up with is this ridiculous nonsensical portrayal.
Logical, level-headed critique and analysis and discussion that's focused on the technical merits of the show instead of the political drama? How refreshing! Keep up the awesome content, good sirs 👏👏👏
@@ACriticalDragon Hah, I have a new app and I thought it had fallen behind. Just make sure you skip an episode if you want to mess with the algorithm 😁
I highly enjoyed the Entwife section, but remain indifferent to Tom Bombadil. I'm just ready for The Stranger to finally figure his stuff out. We're almost halfway through the season. As my grandma used to say, "Time's a-wastin."
Thank Eru Ilúvatar we enjoyed episode five more than this one! That discussion will be out this Thursday on my channel.
@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy always a pleasure to discuss this with you. I think we both enjoyed episode 5 more than this one. But there was still great stuff in this episode.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy The guy without a tv will be caught up?
"What is this? How on earth did you manage this?"
@@Paul_van_Doleweerd It’s magic. I’ll ruin it if I explain how it works.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasyA video in the morning before we watch the next one in the evening works for me 😁, no need to part the curtain 😂
Its interesting her your perspectives. As someone who has only read The Hobbit and watched the films (and now this series) I didn't have the same complaints you both did about retreading old ground. I had heard so much about Tom over the years I loved the scenes with him in it, and the mysterious magical things happening around him. In fact, I loved a lot of the mysterious elements to this episode (magic mysterious that is). The Ents, the strange quicksand monster, the barrow wights. A lot of this season has been pretty quick so a little bit of a slower episode where we get to explore and experience a few more things was much appreciated for both myself and my partner.
I do have lots of issues with the Harfoot story. I love Nori and Poppi and I think they are doing their best, but its so hard for them to not just feel like a distraction from the main story, now more than ever with them being away from The Stranger. I just can't see how they make sense within the wider story. Hobbits were important in Tolkeins stories because they grounded the story with a more relatable character, one more pure of heart and incorruptible. If they are meant to be here to prevent The Stranger from being corrupted, then why aren't we seeing more internal conflict with him when they are not around? Instead he is acting just about the same as always. And when The Stranger does meet up with the greater world, how will they still be useful for that cause?
@@pokefreakplays it just goes to show that likes and enjoyment are entirely personal. You enjoyed something that Philip and grumbled at. That is the nature of a broad audience.
I am glad you enjoyed it.
@@ACriticalDragon It might be that the show creators are assuming that a lot of their audience hasn't read the books or seen the many films (that Russian one is something else!), in which case they won't notice the odd things you two did.
And didn't the stranger use that "back to the shadows" line in an earlier episode?
Critical Dragon trying to be Kind. the show is a mess and its okay to say it.
Overall I enjoy the show very much. I didn’t mind what they did with Bombadil, and was happy to see them try. Same with the Entwife, which I liked a lot. They are making choices and taking risks, and I can respect it. However, ep4 did feel disjointed. When I finished that episode, my first impression was that it felt like several things put together just to get it on-screen and it felt out of place from the rest of the season. Still a very good show for me though. Enjoying the discussion between you.
@sionat29 I am enjoying the show as well. It has been highly entertaining for me.
This episode seemed to highlight the structural issues I have with the show. But overall I am enjoying it.
Yeah, while the “Barrow Wraiths” in this episode clearly is referring to the Barrow Wraiths in “The Fellowship” and Professor Chase is quite right that those were remnants of the Divided Succesor Nations of Arnor in the Third Age affected by the Witch King, there were also tombs and barrows of those Men & Elves who perished traveling from the East to the West in the First Age. Also, some mentioned to me that the Elvish name of area the map literally means “Borrows of the Dead”, so Elrond & Galadriel’s team should have suspected it!😅
I wish you'd pushed further past your initial reaction against the LOTR references and gotten into what thematic work they were doing. Rings and Realms also disliked some of this at first, but when they sat with it for a while they found some interesting interpretive ideas.
For instance, the long shot on Bombadil's face isn't just a "see what we did there, recognize this guy?" - it's intentionally an uncomfortable pause that reflects how the encounter with a being that pre-exists and floats above worldly evil is itself a kind of pause in the action of the plot, a pause that is itself necessary in order to reflect and reevaluate and find your way. And likewise, they found value in how this adaptation of Tom with the predatory tree was much more a matter of respectfully calming down someone grumpy (like a touchy horse who's been approached clumsily), rather than disciplining a corrupted presence as their original reading of LOTR had felt; indeed, they ultimately appreciated it as a reframing of that book scene, showing them an angle on it that they'd never noticed before.
Anyway, I'm only expressing this here because I am usually so appreciative of your insights and perspectives on these kinds of adaptations (I particularly enjoyed your WoT S2 analysis), and I'm sure we've missed out on some cool ideas you could've had if you'd pushed past the your initial feeling of cheap pandering (which, again, is legit! I felt that way a bit too, at first!). Glad to hear that you liked 205 more, and I hope you're enjoying 206 and looking forward to sharing your thoughts about it with us!
In this instance I don't agree with Dr. Olsen. I wasn't just reacting to how long the shot lingered, but also at the colour correction, and the movement of the action to face the audience. The style was reminiscent of a 1980s cast introduction.
If the show's intention was to hold a long pause in the movement of plot, to make us reconsider and recontextualise all that has come before, that would require the previous episodes (and this episode) to have built up momentum of plot, so that the enforced pause would have resonance and meaning. Given the disjointed nature of both this episode, and the fact that the show is trying very hard to balance plot movement, this argument doesn't hold for me.
I appreciated Dr. Olsen's argument, and I thought it was interesting, but I don't think the evidence is there in the narrative structure that was put forward.
So I didn't think it was 'pandering', but I think they really were going for that effect of the moment of reveal. Pausing for a reveal to let the viewer take it in is a common effect and trope to use. So with Occam's razor firmly in hand, I think that is more likely the more accurate interpretation of the scene.
As to many of the other examples, for instance 'Old Man Ironwood', Dr. Olsen's point about how this recontextualises the Old Man Willow scene, is great. But recreating the Willow scene as a 'memberberry' would do the same thing given that recall in new context creates that effect as a natural by-product. So whether it was intended by the show runners to specifically create that effect or it is merely a by product of presenting something familiar, the result in the viewer is much the same.
One thing I enjoy about the show is that they reuse, recall, and reframe many of the events of the LotR books. I actively enjoy that (as I did with the Palantir scene with Miriel). But in this episode it did come across as too many readily identifiable moments. I don't think they are simply 'look at that, I know that' moments, but with so many, it became (at least to me) a tiresome overplaying of the same technique.
So to your original point, this wasn't my initial reaction. I do think about these things, I just didn't come to the same conclusion as Dr. Olsen. Although I am very grateful for both his and Dr. Parke's astute and interesting analyses (not just the things we agree on, but also the things we don't) as it always gives me an new appreciation and way of considering the text in question.
I tend to watch Rings and Realms quite sometime after Philip and I record. So I have yet to watch the episode 5 commentary.
Great discussion. I really enjoyed it. I liked the episode much more than you Tom Bombadill above all, but I appreciate your analyses. About the messangers, I think the elves found only the horses with Lindon colors. They needed to find the cilinder to be sure who rided the horses. But I can be wrong, or misunderstood what you were saiyng. Thank you
Thank AP and Philip for this discussion. I don't like the adaptation, I only enjoy some visuals. And I enjoy watching you two talk about it.
Perhaps you or the Nemesis© can clarify something for me, the last time I read the books was before you were born, is the halfling/stranger storyline concurrent with the ring/numenor storyline or is it before as the other stories seem to be in the same timeframe but the stranger's story seems unconnected so far?
I'm enjoying these chats. I am the most peripheral "consumer" of ROP, so I won't comment on that. One thing I'd urge on AP is that criticism is of its nature subjective; you don't have to apologise for that. Criticism is part of the humanities, which by definition are about human experience and therefore subjective. There can however be agreed-on criteria, terminology, "ways to read" and so on, and good criticism will explain itself in such terms. (Gore Vidal, Clive James and Orwell are the gold standard for me). Sorry to be pompous.
OK one niggle: the writers clearly don't know the Withywindle is a river (the same mistake is in the publicity). I'm also fairly sure they don't know what downs are; we see a barrow, but not downs.
Are you hoping for Blue Wizards because they cast better fireballs? 😂
@@thefantasythinker There's a blue ball joke in there somewhere, but I'm not going to go for the low hanging fruit this time...
A.P is there an equivalent in writing for a "Jump Cut?" A character rapidly covering time or events in a short span of Chapters. Or say move around the map and be at different places one chapter after another because the author does not transition the change?
The way i took the Ent's question was about cutting down sentient trees, but maybe I'm trying to draw distinctions where none was intended to exist.
I totally agree with the reviewers in just about everything they say :-) But Bombadil being characterised as a fat English middle aged farmer with a fake Somerset accent is utterly ridiculous. Here is Tolkein’ mythos character, almost more spirit than even the elves; apart from any other living being, and you make him a fake human caricature of a farmer? I was so disappointed when Jackson left him out of the films but I understood why: what I don’t get, with all the power of cgi these day, that all they could come up with is this ridiculous nonsensical portrayal.
Logical, level-headed critique and analysis and discussion that's focused on the technical merits of the show instead of the political drama? How refreshing! Keep up the awesome content, good sirs 👏👏👏
I think you perhaps need to rename this video AP...
What? And lose out on all that algorithm engagement?
😂😂😂
@@ACriticalDragon Hah, I have a new app and I thought it had fallen behind. Just make sure you skip an episode if you want to mess with the algorithm 😁