I learnt the hard way that making too many complex pieces to your ttrpg kills them. When you make 5 ways to cast different types of spells in a game not centered around casting spells you suffer a lot, believe me. Anyway, I hope you can find out what you really like and stick with that.
As someone who has tried to make their own games over the years, I can heavily relate to your experience with Gloomhaven. It's exactly what you originally had in mind, but better, and yet you don't enjoy it. The hardest part for me in game design by far is getting a workable prototype that has enough mechanics to be interesting, but not too many that it becomes bloated and unuseful
I've tried to design a good few TTRPG systems in my time, but never wound up with a finished version of any of them that I absolutely love. It's very interesting how different TTRPGs treat the same 'story beat' with different levels of focus, reverence, or concern. There are zoom levels to consider, detail levels, and an ebb and flow of drama. TTRPG design is fascinating and fun.
Great to see what else you are being creative at doing, "your doings." I am running solo OSE for myself using One Page Solo Engine and various random tables (new and old). I want to play games with my two daughters. Keeping everyone interested, engaged, and not struggling with mechanics has been my design principles. Where do you start? Do you have design constraints at the start of the creative process, or let them emerge organically? Thanks for the video.
I have a part 1 to this video where I talk about the start of the project more. I like to start in one of two places, thinking about what the player will do, or trying different to deliver a specific yetvopen ended scenario. It’s easier to design a game when you know the verbs the player is expected to know, because then you can build obstacles based on those verbs.
Perfect timing Kyle! I'm in the midst of creating my first game, inspired by Tunnel Goons, Mausritter and Root. Rules lite and solo play included. Play testing is a really good idea - I could test the first part of the first soon, and I could see if actually works!
Heck yeah! Keep thinking about what the minimum viable product is before the next play test. The nice thing about solo games is they are easier to play test! Haha
I'm currently trying to design my own solo TTRPG, and I'm likely biting off more than I may be able to handle hoping to create an "infinite game," if I go by the terminology from that book you mentioned, as a first time project. I'm at least making progress with it (world premise, 9 playable races, 15 playable classes divided between Str/Dex/Int, 3 levels of a resting system, a yes/no Oracle system, a stress/fatigue/illness system, and removal of the usual alignment chart in hopes of giving players more chances to RP their characters without the "Your alignment doesn't let you do that" problem), but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't already considering a decrease in scale. I've been looking at other available games for inspiration, including Colostle, Castles and Crusaders, Delve, Mork Borg, Pathfinder, D&D, Sacrifice, and Ironsworn, so I have multiple ideas, just not much certainty on how to connect them all into something cohesive yet. I also need to find a way to start play testing as I go.
@@mapcrow Haven't Tested it yet but i have fews friends who willing to test it as soon as I'm finishing 0.1 version but there's was one little problem... I HAVE no ideas how to make magic systems 🤣😂
@@lilithgjahro-trpgandstoryt5123 Ha! Yeah! I'd say just start reading how other folks approach magic! This is your big chance to dig through some great games and see how folks address the same design concerns!!
Man, I've been making a TTRPG project on and off for the last 5+ years and lemme tell you, sometimes you gotta go a couple of steps back to rethink systems and stats...and maybe deleting whole paragraphs of rules. (because like "I" understand how something works, but how do I put it into words for normal humans u_u). And don't worry about "stealing" from other systems, no need to reinvent hot water or the bagel.
Kyle, have you ever tried Pathfinder Adventures (the card game)? I've only tried it a little but I'm curious what you think about it as someone interested in solo play
Just last week? I've only just found out this little 2-bit series exists xD I'm currently making a ttrpg for my master project and this is super inspirational and gave me a bit of hope that I'm not gonna end up disappointing everyone that believes in me right now 😅
Yeah! I would love to move some of those lessons and projects over to video format somehow. Something I'm thinking about for the patreon or live streams or something. But it's hard to find time for that.
As someone who has been making RPGs ever since I started playing them, I feel the scope creep bit immensely. I recently jettisoned a whole weapons and armor system from my current game simply because it took the game's focus too far into mechanics-driven combat. It was a good system and all, but it distracted from the kind of play I was shooting for with this particular RPG. Can't wait to see the shape your game takes!
This might not be helpful, but about a year or two ago i made my own game (that i still haven't been able to playtest yet) and it started out a mess, but over time kinda leaned towards the old saying that less is more. I've always disliked that you can't help another player despite standing next to them so i wanted to emphasise on that. I also wanted to make sure you could play just about anything and have abilities related to that creature, and do re-rolls if wanted. So i made two stats/pools one for combat and one for out of combat. Energy (the combat one) is as simple as you have an amount of energy that you can use on or off your turn. You regain expended energy when it is your turn again. If you want to make an attack, that's one energy. Do you want to defend against an attack, one energy. Do you want to alter a spell that's one energy for casting the spell and one for altering the spell. Do you want to combine a spell another player is casting one energy. As long as the game master is okay with it i hope this makes for some creative and interesting combat. The out of combat one which i call Chance can be used for things like. Re-rolls Character specific abilities such as fly for x amount of time if your character have wings. And something specific to the game. These are regained after rests. Again i haven't been able to test it but i hope this help in anyway. Best of luck!
Designing a game is always difficult since you grow attached to certain features, characters, concepts. Etc. For example I’m developing a card game where the main premise is you have to take down the opponents monsters before they take down yours. I’ve gone thru many ideas from giving the monsters a complex type chart (like Pokémon) to not allowing monsters to attack other monsters directly (only with item/action cards). The current iteration has some monsters with ability, removed action cards in favor of items, and a sort of “energy” system where each monster has a certain amount of energy to play (0-3) allowing you to only do so much per turn. You start with 5 energy and it can be increased with items. These are all still concepts and are always subject to change depending on how the play test go
I think that there are two chief components that might be a problem for you as far as Gloomhaven's concerned. The first one is the usual problem of mechanics overburden. I have only given a read to the Gloomhaven ruleset and seen the gameplay from afar, yet it does seem that the following aspects contribute to it: resolution diversity (i.e. how the results of every action undertaken are procured), number modes of play (the more situations you model in a different ways, the harder it is to keep it all in mind) and, possibly the counter-intuitive math (it's usually best to always have "big numbers good" or "low number good" to not confuse the player without need), although I'm not 100% certain on that one, as I didn't get down to it, so if anyone have played, I'd be grateful for any corrections. Mechanics overburden can be eased by having a consistent and generally-applied resolution mechanics (one of the reasons I love GURPS so), cutting out the fat and juggling properties between the general rules and the particular cases (e.g. to choose between having a special text on a card vs. having a keyword of the rule with the same text). The second one is something that, IMO, might be worth looking into while designing your game: the existence of a preset "dungeoncrawl-town-dungeoncrawl" cycle. Not only does it turn the gameplay into chore, it also makes a game formulaic as far as the planning goes. Sure, it makes designer's job easier, being able to arbitrary reset anything that would be hard to balance around persistence from crawl to crawl. It's a good, solid, cycle, mind, but it can become tiresome - especially if the goal is to produce "endless" and aimless (which isn't a negative on its own) adventure. I'm quite interested in the idea of an "endless" ruleset - one of my big goals is a flexible post-apoc kinda-sorta TTRPG with an emphasis on a solo play (although that's a long way's away), and one thing that is persistently a problem in my mind isn't so much a scope creep, as the "player-originated" entity creep. In the end some responsibility indeed has to lay on player's shoulders, yet it's prudent to gently push said player in the right direction. With the growth of a player-defined world it will become harder and harder to manage, eventually leading to an overburden of a different kind. Even with mechanics for shedding some of the entities and their connections to other entities, the scope will invariably grow, lest the game and player's past decisions lose any weight to them.
i love to play mmorpg, the rules of the world are automatic and i can encounter a lot of players. I'm always trying to play ttrpg but when i look these books i feel scared. I can't understand how a fun game can use a book to make things run... I really like ttrpg that has a few pages or just one page
My biggest recommendation is in the description of the first video in this series. A Game Design Vocabulary by Naomi Clark and Anna Anthropy. Once you have some words and theory, you can articulate your experiences playing and reading other games. There is no short cut, but there is lots of help out there!
Looking forword to seeing more on your game. I am working on probably to many games at the moment, including my own and helping friends with thair own. I like it though and I just keep finding youtubers who are working on cool games to watch as well.
I don't do much of playing rpg games, but I'm wondering something : I'm using old rpg books to think on characters/classes to draw. Does that count as world building even if you don't use the rules for it that often 🤔?
Ha! That's up to you! Worldbuilding is just implying a plausible through detail and consistency. Doesn't really need anyone but you to call it that, in my book. Haha
I love that beginner box! That was the first time I DM'd a dungeon, and it was so much fun! I'd DM'd a lot of non-dungeon games in middle school, and didn't get into Pathfinder and DnD until college. Did you run it or play it?
@@mapcrow I started with dnd 3.5 in college and then after the big dnd 4.0 release and then the starting of pathfinder my group went with pathfinder. I’ve played and dmed in pathfinder since then, including in the pathfinder society (their equivalent to the dnd adventurer’s league). My group just recently concluded our first Pathfinder 2 campaign and it was the gm’s first time gming and we all agreed he did great, however the groups reception of pathfinder 2 was mixed. I loved it, and another member greatly enjoyed it, the gm was middleground about it, and the other two players (who primarily play casters) were less happy about it.
I also wanted to make a series where I talk about making my TTRPG. There is a lot of content and a lot cool stuff to talk about. But I am so paranoid that people who are much faster than I am will take the Idea and finish before me T.T Anyways. Always enjoy seeing other people progress/process
One of the reasons the indie rpg scene is so rich is because so many folks share their ideas with blogs posts, videos, Creative Commons licenses, and workshops at cons. I find that sharing the process is more fun and interesting than keeping a lid on things.
@@GanoGaming You should only do what you feel reasonably comfortable with. If it would really ruin your creativity and fun to have someone "beat you to the punch" then maybe it's not a great idea. But my experience is very different. Anyways, I really hope you make the game you want to make in any case!! Cheers!!
Out of curiosity, what art materials do you use? Like that thing you keep shaving black specs off of, aside from that, what do you use in general for your sketches. Also sorry if this is too much to ask, but do you have any tips for people wanting to learn to do sketches and stuff like how you do it? Almost done with summons in SrG ;-;, finally I can start class reworks.
I list the materials I use in the video descriptions. The 8B pencils are what I’m shaving with a knife. I’m self taught as an illustrator, so I would suggest trying lots of different things until something sticks. Don’t worry about doing things the right way, worry about doing things only one way. When you have tried enough things to get some specific questions, reach out to artists in your community for some connection and guidance.
@@mapcrow aight, cus i'm working to learn an anime-esque style cus i think it looks cool also just class reworks remain and my game's first edition will finally be finished ;-;
I learnt the hard way that making too many complex pieces to your ttrpg kills them. When you make 5 ways to cast different types of spells in a game not centered around casting spells you suffer a lot, believe me. Anyway, I hope you can find out what you really like and stick with that.
Yeah. Some folks love that kind of complexity, but I’m going for something different. Different design for different players, ya know!
As someone who has tried to make their own games over the years, I can heavily relate to your experience with Gloomhaven. It's exactly what you originally had in mind, but better, and yet you don't enjoy it. The hardest part for me in game design by far is getting a workable prototype that has enough mechanics to be interesting, but not too many that it becomes bloated and unuseful
Always love seeing some Ironsworn love, seriously one of my favorite designed TTRPGs of all time
Heck yeah!! Ironsworn is so wonderful!! Absolutely hits the mark it's aiming for!!
I've tried to design a good few TTRPG systems in my time, but never wound up with a finished version of any of them that I absolutely love. It's very interesting how different TTRPGs treat the same 'story beat' with different levels of focus, reverence, or concern. There are zoom levels to consider, detail levels, and an ebb and flow of drama. TTRPG design is fascinating and fun.
So... is this like opening up play testing to your Patrons? You have a TON of courage to put this on your patreon! I can't wait to check it out!
Great to see what else you are being creative at doing, "your doings." I am running solo OSE for myself using One Page Solo Engine and various random tables (new and old). I want to play games with my two daughters. Keeping everyone interested, engaged, and not struggling with mechanics has been my design principles. Where do you start? Do you have design constraints at the start of the creative process, or let them emerge organically? Thanks for the video.
I have a part 1 to this video where I talk about the start of the project more. I like to start in one of two places, thinking about what the player will do, or trying different to deliver a specific yetvopen ended scenario. It’s easier to design a game when you know the verbs the player is expected to know, because then you can build obstacles based on those verbs.
Perfect timing Kyle! I'm in the midst of creating my first game, inspired by Tunnel Goons, Mausritter and Root. Rules lite and solo play included. Play testing is a really good idea - I could test the first part of the first soon, and I could see if actually works!
Heck yeah! Keep thinking about what the minimum viable product is before the next play test. The nice thing about solo games is they are easier to play test! Haha
I'm currently trying to design my own solo TTRPG, and I'm likely biting off more than I may be able to handle hoping to create an "infinite game," if I go by the terminology from that book you mentioned, as a first time project. I'm at least making progress with it (world premise, 9 playable races, 15 playable classes divided between Str/Dex/Int, 3 levels of a resting system, a yes/no Oracle system, a stress/fatigue/illness system, and removal of the usual alignment chart in hopes of giving players more chances to RP their characters without the "Your alignment doesn't let you do that" problem), but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't already considering a decrease in scale. I've been looking at other available games for inspiration, including Colostle, Castles and Crusaders, Delve, Mork Borg, Pathfinder, D&D, Sacrifice, and Ironsworn, so I have multiple ideas, just not much certainty on how to connect them all into something cohesive yet. I also need to find a way to start play testing as I go.
I'm making my own TTRPG a while now too
Heck yeah!! It’s fun aint it!!
@@mapcrow Haven't Tested it yet but i have fews friends who willing to test it as soon as I'm finishing 0.1 version but there's was one little problem... I HAVE no ideas how to make magic systems 🤣😂
@@lilithgjahro-trpgandstoryt5123 Ha! Yeah! I'd say just start reading how other folks approach magic! This is your big chance to dig through some great games and see how folks address the same design concerns!!
@@mapcrow And also I don't have knowledge about magic too I'm normally a sci-fi type lol
Man, I've been making a TTRPG project on and off for the last 5+ years and lemme tell you, sometimes you gotta go a couple of steps back to rethink systems and stats...and maybe deleting whole paragraphs of rules.
(because like "I" understand how something works, but how do I put it into words for normal humans u_u).
And don't worry about "stealing" from other systems, no need to reinvent hot water or the bagel.
can't wait for part 3!!!
Kyle, have you ever tried Pathfinder Adventures (the card game)?
I've only tried it a little but I'm curious what you think about it as someone interested in solo play
I watched Part one just a few hours ago. Thank you for the perfectly timed upload xD.
Thank you! Nice when things work out that way, huh?
HOW DID I MISS THIS LAST WEEK? I love this stuff!
Just last week? I've only just found out this little 2-bit series exists xD I'm currently making a ttrpg for my master project and this is super inspirational and gave me a bit of hope that I'm not gonna end up disappointing everyone that believes in me right now 😅
You teach game design? I would be so obsessed if you ever stream a class or something. ✨
Yeah! I would love to move some of those lessons and projects over to video format somehow. Something I'm thinking about for the patreon or live streams or something. But it's hard to find time for that.
Your video preview shows amazing dice. Can you tell me where you bought them?
They are real bone dice that I received as a gift!
As someone who has been making RPGs ever since I started playing them, I feel the scope creep bit immensely. I recently jettisoned a whole weapons and armor system from my current game simply because it took the game's focus too far into mechanics-driven combat. It was a good system and all, but it distracted from the kind of play I was shooting for with this particular RPG.
Can't wait to see the shape your game takes!
Sometimes you gotta kill your darlings. It’s tough, but also a good thing you have that perspective on your work!!
@@mapcrow True. Also, it can always become supplement material (or even an entire other game) later on too, so it's never wasted effort.
This might not be helpful, but about a year or two ago i made my own game (that i still haven't been able to playtest yet) and it started out a mess, but over time kinda leaned towards the old saying that less is more.
I've always disliked that you can't help another player despite standing next to them so i wanted to emphasise on that. I also wanted to make sure you could play just about anything and have abilities related to that creature, and do re-rolls if wanted. So i made two stats/pools one for combat and one for out of combat.
Energy (the combat one) is as simple as you have an amount of energy that you can use on or off your turn. You regain expended energy when it is your turn again.
If you want to make an attack, that's one energy.
Do you want to defend against an attack, one energy.
Do you want to alter a spell that's one energy for casting the spell and one for altering the spell.
Do you want to combine a spell another player is casting one energy.
As long as the game master is okay with it i hope this makes for some creative and interesting combat.
The out of combat one which i call Chance can be used for things like.
Re-rolls
Character specific abilities such as fly for x amount of time if your character have wings.
And something specific to the game. These are regained after rests.
Again i haven't been able to test it but i hope this help in anyway.
Best of luck!
Designing a game is always difficult since you grow attached to certain features, characters, concepts. Etc. For example I’m developing a card game where the main premise is you have to take down the opponents monsters before they take down yours. I’ve gone thru many ideas from giving the monsters a complex type chart (like Pokémon) to not allowing monsters to attack other monsters directly (only with item/action cards). The current iteration has some monsters with ability, removed action cards in favor of items, and a sort of “energy” system where each monster has a certain amount of energy to play (0-3) allowing you to only do so much per turn. You start with 5 energy and it can be increased with items. These are all still concepts and are always subject to change depending on how the play test go
I think that there are two chief components that might be a problem for you as far as Gloomhaven's concerned.
The first one is the usual problem of mechanics overburden. I have only given a read to the Gloomhaven ruleset and seen the gameplay from afar, yet it does seem that the following aspects contribute to it: resolution diversity (i.e. how the results of every action undertaken are procured), number modes of play (the more situations you model in a different ways, the harder it is to keep it all in mind) and, possibly the counter-intuitive math (it's usually best to always have "big numbers good" or "low number good" to not confuse the player without need), although I'm not 100% certain on that one, as I didn't get down to it, so if anyone have played, I'd be grateful for any corrections. Mechanics overburden can be eased by having a consistent and generally-applied resolution mechanics (one of the reasons I love GURPS so), cutting out the fat and juggling properties between the general rules and the particular cases (e.g. to choose between having a special text on a card vs. having a keyword of the rule with the same text).
The second one is something that, IMO, might be worth looking into while designing your game: the existence of a preset "dungeoncrawl-town-dungeoncrawl" cycle. Not only does it turn the gameplay into chore, it also makes a game formulaic as far as the planning goes. Sure, it makes designer's job easier, being able to arbitrary reset anything that would be hard to balance around persistence from crawl to crawl. It's a good, solid, cycle, mind, but it can become tiresome - especially if the goal is to produce "endless" and aimless (which isn't a negative on its own) adventure.
I'm quite interested in the idea of an "endless" ruleset - one of my big goals is a flexible post-apoc kinda-sorta TTRPG with an emphasis on a solo play (although that's a long way's away), and one thing that is persistently a problem in my mind isn't so much a scope creep, as the "player-originated" entity creep. In the end some responsibility indeed has to lay on player's shoulders, yet it's prudent to gently push said player in the right direction. With the growth of a player-defined world it will become harder and harder to manage, eventually leading to an overburden of a different kind. Even with mechanics for shedding some of the entities and their connections to other entities, the scope will invariably grow, lest the game and player's past decisions lose any weight to them.
i love to play mmorpg, the rules of the world are automatic and i can encounter a lot of players. I'm always trying to play ttrpg but when i look these books i feel scared. I can't understand how a fun game can use a book to make things run... I really like ttrpg that has a few pages or just one page
Yes! Been so excited for this!
Thank you so much!! I’m looking forward to continuing to document the process!!
I’d be really interested to here your recommendations for books on game design.
My biggest recommendation is in the description of the first video in this series. A Game Design Vocabulary by Naomi Clark and Anna Anthropy. Once you have some words and theory, you can articulate your experiences playing and reading other games. There is no short cut, but there is lots of help out there!
Looking forword to seeing more on your game. I am working on probably to many games at the moment, including my own and helping friends with thair own. I like it though and I just keep finding youtubers who are working on cool games to watch as well.
I don't do much of playing rpg games, but I'm wondering something : I'm using old rpg books to think on characters/classes to draw. Does that count as world building even if you don't use the rules for it that often 🤔?
Ha! That's up to you! Worldbuilding is just implying a plausible through detail and consistency. Doesn't really need anyone but you to call it that, in my book. Haha
Recognize that map from the og pathfinder beginners box.
I love that beginner box! That was the first time I DM'd a dungeon, and it was so much fun! I'd DM'd a lot of non-dungeon games in middle school, and didn't get into Pathfinder and DnD until college. Did you run it or play it?
@@mapcrow I started with dnd 3.5 in college and then after the big dnd 4.0 release and then the starting of pathfinder my group went with pathfinder. I’ve played and dmed in pathfinder since then, including in the pathfinder society (their equivalent to the dnd adventurer’s league). My group just recently concluded our first Pathfinder 2 campaign and it was the gm’s first time gming and we all agreed he did great, however the groups reception of pathfinder 2 was mixed. I loved it, and another member greatly enjoyed it, the gm was middleground about it, and the other two players (who primarily play casters) were less happy about it.
Nice, a new TTRPG, definately more advanced than my own.
Progress on SrG is steadily going (yay)
Have you ever checked "A Quiet Year"?
It’s wonderful! I’ve run it for my game design students a few times!
I also wanted to make a series where I talk about making my TTRPG. There is a lot of content and a lot cool stuff to talk about.
But I am so paranoid that people who are much faster than I am will take the Idea and finish before me T.T
Anyways. Always enjoy seeing other people progress/process
One of the reasons the indie rpg scene is so rich is because so many folks share their ideas with blogs posts, videos, Creative Commons licenses, and workshops at cons. I find that sharing the process is more fun and interesting than keeping a lid on things.
@@mapcrow I certainly agree. Still paranoid though. I should really try and ignore that part of my brain haha
@@GanoGaming You should only do what you feel reasonably comfortable with. If it would really ruin your creativity and fun to have someone "beat you to the punch" then maybe it's not a great idea. But my experience is very different. Anyways, I really hope you make the game you want to make in any case!! Cheers!!
Out of curiosity, what art materials do you use? Like that thing you keep shaving black specs off of, aside from that, what do you use in general for your sketches. Also sorry if this is too much to ask, but do you have any tips for people wanting to learn to do sketches and stuff like how you do it?
Almost done with summons in SrG ;-;, finally I can start class reworks.
I list the materials I use in the video descriptions. The 8B pencils are what I’m shaving with a knife. I’m self taught as an illustrator, so I would suggest trying lots of different things until something sticks. Don’t worry about doing things the right way, worry about doing things only one way. When you have tried enough things to get some specific questions, reach out to artists in your community for some connection and guidance.
@@mapcrow aight, cus i'm working to learn an anime-esque style cus i think it looks cool
also just class reworks remain and my game's first edition will finally be finished ;-;
Nice! I was looking forward to this
Thank you so much!!
TOBYYYYYYYYY!
YO DUDE! I miss ya like the Dickins!!
I love your channel
Thank you so much!!