Is American Protestantism Escapist? w/ Alan Harrelson
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- Опубликовано: 18 окт 2023
- 📺 Full Episode: • Why I JUST Became a Ca...
Alan gives Matt his diagnosis of the American Protestant Problem.
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I believe he’s referring to the Protestant obsession with eschatology. It turns into a form of escapism
Agreed. I love PWA but I’ve found this about several of the converts from Protestantism that Matt interviews. I do appreciate his charitability towards us though.
But even then, it seems more of an obsession with dispensationalism (a particular belief within sects of Protestantism that has become popular among people who generally don’t read their Bible enough). Several other Protestant eschatologies have an emphasis on the important of THIS life (post-millennialism, in particular, is amazing at this)
I think the reason Matt doesn't understand what Alan is referring to is that he doesn't have much experience with fundamentalists.
Escapism is an excellent way to describe Protestantism. Escapism reaches it's peak with the rapture heresy
Definitely wasn’t a heresy for Lot, for Noah, for Moses, for Enoch.
Genesis 18:24 - read this. Carefully please. Then read the whole context. Also pay attention - CLOSELY - to who Abraham is talking to. Watch closely the capitalization of the word LORD vs Lord.
Then look up why 2nd Thessalonians was written in the first place.
Please just read them and see if it strengthens your beliefs or not.
HE did not appoint us to wrath.
Did you get Left Behind ? 😀
@@jonathanbell8887 I actually used to believe in the rapture but once I looked into it the whole idea of the rapture the whole concept of it didn't come about until the 19th century. Maybe I was a bit harsh when I said heresy but it doesn't appear very likely. I understand the argument for Noah and Lot
@@SeaJay_Oceans haha. Looks like you did too 😉
Let me Know when 1,400 x 1,400 x 1,400 mile Golden Glowing CUBE of New Jerusalem enter's Earth Orbit... ( Revelation 21 ) ...
Until then, nothing to worry about.@@josh39684
This guy's accent and voice is phenomenal. It's been too long since I've heard a true Southern accent. It's almost extinct.
Honestly! It’s truly a beautiful thing to listen to!
There are various types of regional Southern accents, and people tend to forget. The late Walker Percy occasionally noted in his essays and novels a particular accent from a particular region, but I don’t think he ever wrote about the different Southern accents in detail.
Imagine the shock of that accent telling you that he is a Catholic for the first time.
To be honest the first video I saw with him I really thought he was putting on a fake accent for the first minute. Then I realized he just has an awesome southern accent. So happy about his conversion! God bless him.
I love it when he tells Matt not to hit the pipe to hard and it goes right over Matt's head. This episode is so funny.
The only difference that I found between being a Catholic and {leaving out of ignorance of my Catholic faith} Protestantism is that suffering for Catholics is a spiritual blessing whereas suffering for Protestants is a bad thing. I can agree with the guest when he said that Protestantism has turned into a way to gain material goods,a feel good experience with energetic motivational speakers.
@@derek4412
Chiming in from an evangelical background: I don’t think it’s the influence of Calvinism, at least not for my circle of evangelicals. We actually are disgusted by Calvinism.
I think it comes from years of being told that God has favored America by giving us such a bountiful land with so many freedoms: almost to the point that America is a chosen land. Add elements of the prosperity gospel to that, which focuses on King David’s wealth and extravagance, and you get a belief that favor from God = material blessings.
Well there's nothing about protestantism that says suffering isn't a spiritual blessing. Sure there are some protestants that don't like it, but the same goes for some Catholics too.
@@derek4412And no, Calvin doesn't teach that. Now Joel Osteen prosperity "Christians" would believe that.
@@paulwoodhouse3386 true that the same goes with lots of Catholics and me being one trying to appreciate the good and the bad. It is a virtue to endure suffering and appreciate it since one is fighting against natural instincts or the flesh seeking comfort and avoiding suffering at all cost.
From my personal experience and speaking to Protestants about suffering I typically get the same response, Christ took all of the suffering for us and so we don’t have too. Contrary to what scripture says about suffering,2 Timothy,Acts 14 to name a few.
@@derek4412 personal experiences speaking to Protestants about suffering and how one can witness either by televangelists and their mega churches. There may be some Protestant denominations who aren’t that way and appreciate simplicity and missionary work which involves suffering but that’s only a handful. The Protestant doctrine is mainly focused around prosperity health and wealth. And even those doing missionary work do it for wealth. Look up world mission ceo salaries and they’re in the 6figure range bonuses in the millions. Whereas, Catholic Missions aren’t in it for the salary. Huge difference between the 2.
Down here on South America we have a lot of protestants like that. Escapism is the right way to say it.
What I wouldn't give for a Catholic revival in Brazil.
Matt working over his pipe is reminding me of Gandalf right now. Great stuff.
Ha ha-yes
There are many Protestants who are truly trying to follow Christ. Protestant snake oil salesman pastors are a disgrace!
Love this guy’s voice
He is absolutely right. All this crap made it to other countries too, where it makes no sense.
thanks to martin luther
I think it takes off in regions like Latin America due to phenomena like Liberation Theology that's always about saving people from bad economic and social conditions. Deliverance from their bad lots in life.
@@derek4412 Read about "americanism" (heresy). It explains the US well.
At the start of the video I thought this guy was putting on a fake voice 😂 I absolutely love that it’s his real accent 👍🏻
Quasi-denominational pride exists within the Catholic church too (i.e. TLM, Novus Ordo, Eastern Rite, etc.) We're hardly anymore united than our Protestant brethren.
100% is. I’ve always seen this with my friends and it’s frustrating to talk with them. Couldn’t think of a term but this is perfect
I swear this dude could do the voice for Foghorn leghorn.
I'm proud to be Protestant.
listened to the whole podcast to learn more about my faith
ended up learning a lot about pipe smoking. never going to do it, but it was a very cool lesson still
Sounds like that is perhaps a local problem. Our churches work together in our community. For example ,every summer a city wide evening service takes place in our largest city park. We’ve had up to ten different churches participate. It is a truly awesome experience to see everyone come together for Jesus.
His point was that if they all believe in Jesus, why the need for 10 different churches?
I was merely commenting on one point Dr. Harrelson made as to the condition of the churches are in his area.
One church might meet the needs better for one group of people and another church might meet the needs for another group of people. It would be difficult to get everyone together under one roof, to meet the needs of everyone.
Jn 17; Eph 4:1-6
Exactly! I was just commenting the same thing. Alan is correctly identifying a problem that is localized to churches in the Bible Belt and some other areas. He is incorrectly attributing his limited experience with the Protestant Church in the South to the Protestant Church as a whole though.
Very refreshing to see to honest gentlemen smoking pipes, sipping whiskey, and discussing God and modern christianity.
I mean *some* Protestants think like this, but the confessional ones aren’t really like this much at all.
Matt, stop sipping the bourbon now.
Dr. Alan, it is a blessing getting to know you and your family.
This guy sounds like he’s from either mobile or Montgomery 😂 could be completely wrong. Even then you don’t hear that traditional Southern accent much anymore. I love it
He's from the Carolinas originally (SC I believe), but lives in Kentucky nowadays.
It's a wonderful accent.
He doesn't. It's South Carolina
Like I’ve always said, there are more Protestant Denominations than Protestants, since their faith is individualistic and many hold contradictory beliefs.
I live in a predominantly protestant area and I have to agree with the guest's take on protestantism rather than Matt's. Humility and empathy do not seem to be their strong suits. Entitlement and judgmental would be more appropriate.
Some churches are like this, sure. But Protestantism is vast. I cherish and thank God for my Protestant heritage. I think we can learn a lot from each other. Protestants can learn to be more holy, understand tradition, and embrace the sacraments. Catholics can learn a love for the Bible, to be more ecumenical, and that not EVERYTHING has to be made into a rule. Many things are permissible, but not necessarily beneficial. And that can meet different people at different times.
This explains why as a technical Baptist is going to a Presbyterian church (PCA).
I think I'm beginning to see why some of my Protestant brothers turn to the Catholic church. If these are the Protestants and churches they are attending and experiencing, it would frustrate me too. As it is, I have been taught that life isn't promised to anyone and to store up treasures in heaven, not on earth. To not make plans for tomorrow - with the understanding that we are to always be prepared for Jesus' return. Keeping our lamps trimmed and full of oil for that time. There are humble churches out there with humble pastors and parishioners doing good works in their community for the furtherance of the Kingdom. It is these churches that keep me firmly ensconced in my reformed faith.
Much respect to Matt and his views, but I have a slight issue, perhaps, with something he said in this short clip. He mentioned that he can't imagine James being upset with Peter and then saying, "That's it, I'm starting my own church. That's not an option. There's one church - the church Christ established. We stay in the boat and we fight." But when fights have broken out in the Catholic church over important topics, they invoke anathema on people to stop discussion at the peril of one's immortal soul.
All in all, I enjoy stretching my mind and visiting these valuable podcasts. I just got done watching a 3 hour chat with a couple of Byzantine Mothers which was amazing.
I agree with some of these critcisms, and I especially find errors in evangelical doctrines of eschatology and their false doctrines regarding Communion.
On the other hand evangelicals do a good job of spreading and emphasizing the LOVE of Jesus, and the reading of Scripture.
They also tend to do a great job of engaging with non-believers and spreading the gospel.
Nobody is perfect! I love and appreciate my evangelical brothers in Christ, as I love and appreciate my catholic brothers in Christ!
I don't think they do a great job, since they present an incomplete Bible and the truth™according to their own sect, I know quite a few people who grew weary of christianity because of the evangelicals' fanatical and unreasonable approach, and in Brazil they act like a political party in some states.
I suppose it depends on the area, maybe some really do a great job and I don't doubt their faith is sincere.
@conovan5081 they definitely arent perfect. But I also know a LOT of people who grew weary of Christianity following the massive number of sexual abuse cases in the catholic church, and the subsequent cover-up by so many high ranking members of the clergy.
I know it is the elephant in the room that we never want to talk about, but that was a blow to the church and our trust in the clergy that we are still reeling from, and may never fully recover from. Priests being pedophiles has been embedded in our group consciousness to the point where it has become a meme. And the consequences on people's faith in the church has been devastating.
As far as the truth, luckily most evangelicals place a very high emphasis on the Word of God. It's hard to go wrong when you put that much focus on Scripture. But yea like I said they're not perfect and errors have crept in, and the evangelical view of Communion especially is pretty bad tbh.
This is a very interesting and in part justified take, but it is muddled a bit by some terminology issues - a couple of times Alan correctly identifies the group he's talking about as being a select number of churches within the Bible Belt in the south, who have allowed the worst parts of southern, and American, culture influence the expression of their worship to the point that they are proud, arrogant, and divisive. He then however conflates this localized segment of American Protestantism, which is itself only one part of the broader Protestant tradition, with all of Protestantism. The problem here is quite obvious - issues that are not representative of all of America, nonetheless of all Protestantism, are being represented as if they were ubiquitous when, as Matt pointed out, they aren't.
One of the reasons I left evangelism for Lutheranism was the modernism and the materialism. But if we are gonna fight against materialism, I think one criticism for the catholic church being the art as materialism. I think evangelism is using a modernist tech and architecture to do exactly what the catholic church does
Matt is thinking about actual Protestants (Reformed or Lutheran), Alan is speaking about "protestants" but means actually "evangelicals". Thus the disagreement.
I feel like there's definitely some truth to that in the mainstream, but there are many protestants who are very good people who serve people today and want to serve God with their whole hearts
Sounds like the gentleman is referring to Fundamentalist Protestants. That would be my guess. I've dealt with them online and each time, it's not a pleasant experience. They've drifted so far from the Church Christ established, that's it's unrecognizable. Yet they say Catholics have gone astray. I've seen the misinterpretation of Scripture infect politics with disastrous results ie war.
6:40 The passage you read was starting good.
Just the final or second to final sentence or clause the Church is said to collaborate with _everybody_ which logically would include both Nazis and Commies, but in practise includes Commies and excludes Nazis.
Not that I am one, but I refuse to be callous about some of their plights ... did you know Vincent Reynouard is in prison for denying that gas chambers were regularly used to murder people?
I like to banter him on some details, but it would be happier if he were a free man ...
Alan Harrelson is talking about a limited type of Protestant. Strip mall is right.; but, his concept is focused in one idea of subdivisions. Many Protestant are serious. I am Roman Catholic in Texas (South) and Mr. Harrelson does identify a problem ;but his overall comment is only one aspect that is negative, other aspects can and are very positive.
Don't confuse Evangelicalism with Classical Mainline Protestantism.
0:22 I get it you are not allowed to do tobacco publicity (or maybe you can if they are the sponsor--wait, that would make the video ineligible for viewers under 18 in some legislations, including France) ... and I actually made a promise to the Sacred Heart kept most of the years since to abstain from tobacco (my granny had asthma).
But still, what is the brand?
1:31 I have seen much better things than that labelled as escapism.
So, escapism is not what I would call it.
However, I think there are lots of US Protestants who are not that way. My experience of CMI or ICR or AiG (the ones where I have coinciding interests, along with David Wood, whom you interviewed) is, they have a fairly Catholic view on getting involved in good causes, notably Pro-Life, and they have a Catholic view of marriage, excluding the question of it being a sacrament. Such people definitely do not correspond to the description.
Oh, and some of the most outspoken Apocalyptic ones have had a great deal of courage in getting involved. Rob Skiba II, Brenda Weltner, Trey Smith. Pretty far from "escapist" as far as I can see.
Ooof!
You can tell Matt really hasn't had much interaction with evangelicals.
5:10 Ouch. GaSp!
_"The joys and the hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the men of this age, especially those who are poor or in any way afflicted, these are the joys and hopes, the griefs and anxieties of the followers of Christ"_
First. "men of this age"
*Et nolite conformari huic saeculo, sed reformamini in novitate sensus vestri: ut probetis quae sit voluntas Dei bona, et beneplacens, et perfecta.*
[Romans 12:2]
Every age has its own errors, and every age has men of the age promoting the errors. Henry VIII apart from promoting CoE had this fad that marital love had to be the ideal romantic love. He didn't find that in Anne of Cleves (who thanks to a kind of stepdaughter, Mary Tudor, actually died Catholic, which she wouldn't have in Germany), hence the annulment.
Second. "poor or in any way afflicted"
How many poor have hopes about winning on the lottery or betting on horses? Is the Church supposed to share such hopes?
I don't mean a priest should be callous and hope the guy who never gets out of that doesn't win, because it will teach him a lesson, but I don't think the priest should encourage that.
Third. _"and anxieties_ of the followers of Christ"
*Haec locutus sum vobis, ut in me pacem habeatis. In mundo pressuram habebitis: sed confidite, ego vici mundum.*
[John 16:33]
A document which has at least three errors in the first sentence is hardly magisterium.
I think he’s smoking something. He makes no sense.
Man is a walking drawl, my God.
Christ will rapture His church!
Then the 7 year tribulation will start on earth! Then the church will come back with Christ at the end of the 7 years to rule and reign with Christ for the 1,000 year millenium
This is simply a mistaken reading of the scriptures. The passages discussing the rapture such as "one will be taken and another left" are talking about those who will be taken out of the earth for Judgement, not taken up to heaven.
Matt, it sounds almost as if you're trying to convince your guest into remaining Protestant. If you want to see the churches he's talking about, go to an Assembly of God service.
Dude you are describing Catholics. My family and friends constantly give me a terrible time for being Lutheran. Dont act like you guys are all on the same page. Got catholic friends who hate the pope and only believe in praying in Latin. Plus, the Catholic Churches here are divided by ethnicity. I was part of it for 43 years and just got sick of the racism. Plus, they arrested the priest, but that’s a whole different topic. I used to hang out with Taylor Marshall in college and he wasn’t the spiteful person the Catholic Church has turned him into. We have experienced nothing but love and genuine fellowship at our church. People care about each other and help the community as often as possible. The saying here is if you need help skip the Catholic Churches. Don’t mean to get all worked up, but his horse is mighty high.
How's Taylor Marshall in college?
I’m not sure I can trust the quote of a man 15 minutes into uncatechized Catholicism.
Who’s asking you to trust, my guy? It’s just another perspective 😅
Yes, denominations are not in God's word. Christian denominations are man made and one of Satan's biggest victories.
What do you mean by this?
That's why I'm Catholic
@Forester- you missed the point. Are you truly born again? Are you a Christian? Or are you a Catholic? I'm a Christian, Jesus is my Lord and Savior.
@@Anthony-sm8wyGod doesn't tell us to be Catholic, Baptist or any other denominations. If Jesus is your Lord and Savior then you're a Christian, child of God. Christians are the church in scripture, not the building or the denominations.
@@ironleatherwood Yes I have been baptized, and yes I am a Catholic Christian because Christ only founded one Church and I believe it to be the Catholic Church.
That is utter nonsense Matt. American Protestanism is not one bit gratifying. I cannot deal with their pretense and as they guy said materialism, their love of Christ is all abou them, it'sll all a show for you to see how holy, how nice and how tolerant they are, except, if they know your Catholic-intollerant. I don't just roll my eyes at them, I get into verbal sparing.
I wouldn't stereotype a whole group of believers like that, there are plenty of protestants who love Jesus and have faith, look at the amount of charity work that a lot of these churches do.
I find that being charitable to other Christians beliefs while still defending your own is the best way, look at the debates between Gavin Ortlund and Trent Horn for example.