Last Sunday I was in Denver and attended the Latin mass at the Cathedral Basilica of the Immaculate Conception. The mass was at 6:30 pm and it was a beautiful and reverent service. There were many people of all ages and I could tell that they really loved their church. We all participated in singing and there was Benediction. Next time I'm in Denver I will go to mass.
I have been to this Mass - it is actually a Novus Ordo all in latin and ad orientum. Provides a good comparison of each form. It is still very beautiful and should be more of a norm, but does not quite hold up to the theocentricity of the TLM in my view.
In Canada, feeling betrayed by the Pope also comes from when he came here to apologize for a genocide that never happened. The reports of mass graves of Native children at residential schools run by the Church were a complete lie. As Catholics, we now have no credibility here to fight against great injustices such as abortion, euthanasia, rainbow, gender conversion, etc. Why did the Pope throw us under the bus? Yes, I also feel betrayed because the Tridentine mass I was attending has been moved all over the place. We had a growing community and now it gets randomly moved to different locations and at weird times. We are frustrated because we used to do a lot of community service to the poor and mentally ill where we were. People accuse traditionalists of caring more for liturgy than people but that is not true. Our liturgy fed us and then we had the Spirit to move within needed populations and do His work. TLM was instrumental in my conversion to Catholicism. When a former Protestant learns the importance of Church history and tradition, that is what they need and want. Peter, feed your sheep.
In France, Novus Ordo masses are empty while Trad. Latin Masses are often full and have been growing really fast with younger people the past few years. At the same time, the current Pope goes on a war with TLM, how odd uh ?
@@brandywineblueThe Pope is a heretic and not even Catholic. He's always crapping all over traditional Catholics. Seriously, what will it take for you to understand that Pope Francis is an anti-Pope? Will it be when he finally endorses and allows gay marriage?
What Brian says about what has happened to him in Canada is, quite literally, what happened to my diocesan TLM last fall here in DC. "The Pope broke up your community." And yes, it is a bitter pill to swallow.
@@sergesavard636 Unlikely. The fact that you call him "Bergoglio" is why you face what you do. Instead of merely enjoying the extraordinary form of the Mass with all of its beauty, you and your crew used it as a power base from which to attack the rest of the church, to claim we were going to invalid masses, and posting exaggerated social media posts about "clown masses." If you had simply left the rest of the church alone instead of provoking dissension, you would not now be facing this. Francis did not author Traditiones Custodes - YOU DID.
Latn mass should be allowed I think every parish should have an option to attend a latin mass over the weekend. Let them choose both masses are valid and should be accepted.
This is a first world problem in big cities in America there just aren’t that many Latin trained priest in the church there is a priest shortage period and outside of the United States some areas wait weeks for a priest. It’s not feasible for every church in America to have both masses there aren’t that many priest who can do both and nor is the demand once that kind of availability is done the Latin mass is full because of supply and demand and yes I support the Latin mass being available for those that like it but we have other priorities as a worldwide church than to cater to a niche community and to make it mandatory for every church.
Dung..... Time has come to root out the masonic wipers nest at present day satanic Rome. Klaus Schwab/Soros/gates satanic sustainable wealth is maintaining the GALLEN MAFIA. Matt, voris, etc., are no match for SANHEDRIN satanists. About other Zionist shalom mercenaries so called latin mass ilk less said the better. Repent sincerely like Queen Esther of old did.DISCUSSION days over bishops,cardinals, etc are over. Most of them are de facto masons hence their deafening silence on the face of diabolical APOSTASY worldover. Homo/lesbian infested hierarchy. Mother Mary had warned countless times worldover at Quito, Ecuador, etc. Wake up so called latin mass ZOMBIES
@@AlejandroAB Actually only those who are fed a lie that the Latin Mass is taking over by certain You Tubers would come to your conclusion. There are 25000 Diocean Priest in the United States in the Norvos Ordo and 1000 Latin mass Priests you are asking for 25000 Priests to drop everything and be trained the in the Latin Mass when we are have a priest shortage overall in the United States its just not feasible.
Really??? WOW! I moved out of there recently. Things kept going crazier and crazier and the last straw was the letter instructing Catholic schools about LGBT last year. I can't believe what you're saying!! I'm happy for you!
@@GustavoAndresHerrera I remember that letter, I take everything with a grain of salt as the Bishop I mentioned above had signed the very document you are referring to. Whatever happens, now is the time to stand firm in the truth no matter the ridicule or persecution that comes with it.
@@LauFiu there are good places still in Auckland, Te Atatu for TLM, St Thomas More has a great priest and a good Novus Ordo Mass..... But, unfortunately... From the Bishops there isn't much positive to say :(
@@Desert-Father I prefer to remember the promise of Jesus Christ: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". We're in the hands of the Holy Spirit. That said... I moved countries to take my family away from those leaders (trusting the Holy Spirit doesn't excuse us from our own responsibility). God bless....
Sadly this is not happening only to TLM parishes but also to faithful conservative Catholics attending the Novus Ordo Mass. I have first hand experience of such Catholics being silenced, banned, slandered and marginalized by the pastor and Vicar General of our diocese. It is incomprehensible as to why this is happening to devout Catholic families by church clergy. God have mercy on them.
Even St. Peter was rebuked by St. Paul. It doesn't make St. Peter less of a leader of the church. It only means that he's human and I hope good will come out of this since God works in mysterious ways. We have had worse but God delivered us from such leaders. Let us trust in the Holy Spirit.
Paul rebuked Cephas, not Peter. Peter was a title name rather than a real name (his real name is Simon). In Greek, the title names will always be translated. As cephas became Πέτρος (Petros/Peter), the messiah became Χριστός (Khristós/Christ). The original name is never translated just transliterated. The Cephas referred to by Paul as written in Greek is clearly not saint Peter (for Peter is a title) but a person's real name. Paul is consistently when writing the name Peter (Saint Peter, the first Pope) remains Petros (Peter) not Cephas. They're two different personal.
@@dickymartinus1753 Cephas is the Latin word for Peter. St Cephas in Latin is St Peter in English. You should not use the word “clearly”, especially if you start with denying that Cephas is not Peter when they are the same thing. The only thing clear is there are people that would disagree with you. “The Cephas referred to by Paul as written in Greek…” maybe Im misunderstanding you, but Cephas is Latin, not Greek. Kephas is Greek. There may have been another Cephas, but Peter is also Cephas in Latin.
@@paulmualdeave5063 Cephas is transliteration of Kepha Aramaic, translate to Petrus in Latin, Petros in Greek. Jesus' original language is Aramaic. The new testament was written in Greek, so the title name must be translated. Peter is a title name, Simon is a real name. Simon (real name) does not need to be translated, but his title name (Cephas - Kepha Aramaic) must be translated into Petros (Greek).
I'm new to Catholicism and going through RCIA and the impression i have of Pope Francis is He is not the Pope we need, not the Pope we want, but the Pope we have. I'm still learning.
Our RCIA program was useless. Never opened a Bible or Baltimore Catechism. They just talked about feelings. For the sake of our souls, we moved to a parish where the traditional priest said the NO ad orientem as well as the TLM. He also gave instructive homilies on the Catholic faith, instead of ones torn from the NY Times op ed page. May God bless and protect him always, and you as well
That's pretty much spot on. He's a terrible Pope. Pretty much a heretic. He's definitely not Catholic since he's getting involved in left wing talking points.
He is the Pope that God has given us and we must obey, just like St.Paul submitted to St.Peter, we must do the same even if we do not know what the Lord is doing through him.
This pope makes me question if the Catholic Church is the Lords church. I was raised a Mormon but left over 10 years ago. I have seen little difference between Protestant faiths and Mormonism claim to be the ones to interpret the scriptures correct… they have differences but all make that claim. Then you have this Pope who gives me the impression he is no different than the founder of every Protestant faith. He seems like a wolf in sheep clothing. I have no idea where God is calling me.
@@TheBirdierougewhy does he seem to be a wolf in sheep’s clothing? What has he said that goes against the faith ? In the context of the history of the papacy, Pope Francis is one of the most Christlike in his behaviour and his teaching.
Blessed to have not one, but two Latin Mass Churches in Lyon (France) city center, FSSP and the one I attend run by diocesan Priests. Both Churches absolutely thriving and left in peace by the good Bishop. Very hard to say this, but I think a lot of people are simply waiting to see what the next Papal election brings, God help us.
@@jonaszswietomierz8017 Greetings, yes St George's on the banks of the Saone, and up the hill nearby in St Just there's a big old Baroque style Church run by the FSSP.
Brian is expressing a lot the pain and anguish that Latin mass families have felt these two years. All because some people half a world away has a false assumption about what you and your loved ones think.
Yeah I mean this entire comment section proves how much we need Pope Francis and specifically Custodians of Tradition. It has become clear extraordinary forms of the mass being common on the parish level is creating disunity in the Church and confusion about what is actually the ordinary form of how we should celebrate. There is one form of the mass the Latin rite of Christ's Church should ordinarily celebrate: the ordinary form. That is the form Christ asks the Latin Rite of His Church to celebrate ordinarily. The ordinary form is the traditional Latin mass. It is the continuation of the tradition of the liturgy in the Latin rite. Extra ordinary forms which are permitted but don't have the distinction of being the ordinary form, should not be confused for what we should be celebrating ordinarily at the parish level. Now if you want to visit one of the many different extra ordinary forms at a monastery or one of the other non parish places that offer it, go ahead and enjoy! But you have a responsibility to attend your local parish and the liturgy your parish should celebrating is the ordinary form of the rite you belong to. For us in the Latin rite, it's the ordinary form. The same sort of crackdown on liturgies was done at Trent and people complained then. Just imagine if Pope Francis allowed this to continue. You have people in this very comment section calling themselves "Latin mass families" as distinct from Catholic families. These are families who are ignoring their responsibility to their local parish to drive to somewhere 45 minutes away. And you have a responsibility to your local parish. The Catechism says the parish community (that's you, you who live in the borders of your parish) have a responsibility for the education and integration of confirmands into the parish community. You are not traditional by ignoring this responsibility, you are very modern. This is a very recent modern idea that you don't have a responsibility to your local parish. Not to mention you miss out on the special graces the pastor of your local parish is given to guide specifically you in the faith. God bless Pope Francis! Keep up the great work!
@@mikethemonsta15 well said, I have to admit such fatigue with all of this. The Latin Mass was not supposed to be said after V2 and was done as a concession to people who wanted to leave the Church over it - talk about pride over faith and submission to the authority of the Church. It's the same thing to this day. Maybe it was a mistake to concede this, as now all we see is division in our one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
@@mikethemonsta15 "The ordinary form is the traditional Latin mass. It is the continuation of the tradition of the liturgy in the Latin rite" No it isnt and never will be...It is obstinate liberals like you who will not accept the fact the galactic failure of the Church since V2 and NO.. You know why I wont go to my local parish, rainbow flags, gay priests, financial corruption .. should I go on???
Some seed fell on the ground. Some seeds were trampled under foot and eaten by birds. Some fell on rocky soil and grew quickly, but died when the hot sun scorched the earth. Still others fell onto the deep soil of obedience, put down roots and produced fruit. David did not kill the anointed King Saul in the cave. And Saul was far worse than the anointed Pope Francis.
The FSSPX (Sometimes it's called SSPX) has many parishes and they celebrate the TLM. Maybe search for one of those? The FSSP also has quite a few parishes that celebrate TLM
Same here, our NO around town are barely scraping by, while the TLM's are THRIVING. As of Nov 1st we are down to only ONE "Shrine" that allows TLM. Feel so sad for the Priests who have dedicated their whole Priesthood to the TLM for 30 years - now are out......Does that make any sense to anyone.
For context: our diocese has a 115 parishes, only one of which is FSSP. Sure, it is well attended - and also less than 1% of who shows up on a Sunday. You have this illusion of yourselves as a much larger portion of the church than is likely the case, at least by the numbers.
@@admiralbob77 There are 2 million nominally Catholics in Chicago. There are three TLM parishes, counting the FSSPX priory. There were more, but Cupich hates thriving parishes. We certainly make less than 1% of all Catholics here. But go to any other parish and you'll be lucky to find more than ten young people at their Sunday Mass. You'll also struggle to find more than one baby in the entire church (if any at all), or a family with more than two children. Young men (who are the ones who become priests) will be practically non-existent. The median age will be above 60, and most people in attendance will be old women. The parish will be run by an old priest who is also in charge of one or two more churches. Go to any of the TLM parishes and you'll find plenty of young people, from adolescents to young men. There are also plenty of young and large families; some of them will even have six, seven or eight children. There will be many priests, most in their thirties or forties, and they'll have plenty of vocations. Now tell me, which ones would you say that are thriving? Which ones have a future? FSSP, ICKSP and SSPX seminaries have a long wait list because they don't have the resources to accept all the young men who want to join them. Meanwhile, diocesan seminaries are desperate for more vocations. Wake up and smell the incense. The future of the Church is traditional.
@@cfban Largely irrelevant since FSSP attendees are vastly smaller in number. And again, I'd expect a Companions parish demographics compares favourably.
I went from going to the TLM on rare occasions, to exclusively attending the TLM thanks to Traditionis Custodes and the restrictions in my Archdiocese. Thank you, Pope Francis, for awakening in me devotion for the Mass of the Ages.
My family has been at the TLM for 13 years. Since Covid and TC, we have grown exponentially. We were never empty before but now, not getting to Mass early could cause you to struggle finding enough room for your family. It’s beautiful to see the church so full.
It was being forced to wear a mask and receive communion in the hand during covid in later part of 2020 that sparked curiosity about what the big deal was about the TLM. Been going for 3 years now. The only new mass I have been to since then, was two funerals.
Pope Francis is a great grace because he has given us all clarity. Previously we were all in denial, trying to convince ourselves that something good might one day come out of Vatican 2.
As an Orthodox who's never been Catholic, I find the war on the TLM tragic. I remember going to a Novus Ordo and being so disappointed; it felt Presbyterian-lite. Then I went to a TLM and thought "this is what I want Catholic celebration to be like." And it's not the Latin itself, at least for me; as beautiful as it is, I prefer when I can understand what I hear. It was that it treated the mass seriously and with the traditional elements: the incense, the reverence, the head coverings, the priest facing away from the people. The Novus Ordo is supposed to be more accessible for non-Catholics, but what about the Catholic faithful? And frankly, the mass is supposed to be an ascent to heaven: for the non-Catholics who want that, why would they be more attracted to a less beautiful, less reverant ascent? From the outside, the war on the TLM looks like a war on traditionalists in Catholicism, a proxy target to either grind them down or force them out. Why? To what end? It is sad to watch.
And reverence is not automatic in the TLM either. You can read the saints in the 1700s admonishing priests for their irreverence and rushed 10 minute Masses. I attend both forms of the Mass as well as Byzantine divine liturgies for the record.
@maolsheachlannoceallaigh4772 You're right; it's not about aesthetics or preferences. Even if a local heretical church serves a more beautiful, reverent service, I should go to the parish in right communion. But ideally, the ones in right communion should be beautiful, reverent, awe-inspiring. The liturgy is an ascent to heaven; it should feel that way.
Saying it intensified the problem is an understatement. It made it explode exponentially. What was once confined to a few internet trolls has now turned into fury (with good reason) in young families of devout faithful everywhere. The Pope singlehandedly increased the likelihood of schism in the Church by orders of magnitude. What the liturgical reform started is now being consolidated by Pope Francis. When future generations read about the Second Great Western Schism, they will see Traditionis Custodes as one of the pivotal points.
@@gentlemanbronco3246it was political before, but I think also relatively unknown to most Catholics. It was never discussed so dissidents abandoned the entire RCC before they'd discover that the older rite might be a far better fit for them personally. Maybe I am projecting but that's the path I went down. Cradle Catholic, struggled with faith and went to a cathedral in college (nearest to my dorm and the campus shuttle bus route). I never knew that there was still a TLM or how it differed as it was never discussed. I mostly fell away and became a cafeteria Catholic. I didn't really return to the Church until a few deaths in the family. Now I'm struggling again but found the alternative. The TLM seems like the best and only way through the darkness. The biggest aspect is that the TLM is it seems to form masculine men, feminine women, and actually attracts younger people without trying to water down the faith. IE this is what the rules are and about 1990 years of history, philosophy, theology, and catechism examining why. The novus ordo is more like teaching to the test: getting them to pass each test is given a far higher priority than actually learning how and why.
The TLM was instrumental in my joining the church. It sounds cringe, but I really feel like my life can be divided into the time before I attended the TLM and the time after. It changed everything for me. The way I saw my family, my community, my place in the world, I called my parish that Monday and signed up for RCIA and never looked back. I suspect not a lot of people have had a similar experience at a typical NO. The people want and need a challenge, an escape from the world, something that feels so different and apart from the everyday. Life is too easy, too mundane, we get into routine so fast. I never feel that with the TLM, maybe in 50+ years if lord willing I have them, but every Sunday is a new experience and a new chance to grow in the faith and try to just get that fraction closer to understanding everything the church has to offer after 2,000 years.
I feel the exact same way as you...before TLM/after TLM. My husband and I grew up going to the NO but found the TLM during the COVID lockdown and haven't looked back!
The old generations are ignorant and stubborn, they cling to the NO thinking it to be the future, thankfully many seminarians have affinity for TLM. The church will improve, we just need patience.
big respect to Brian for being diplomatic. The frustration I would feel would definitely contaminate the way I would speak about this, but Brian is quite calm about it.
In Australia, we had only one priest travelling across 5 states since 2017 giving the only traditional Latin mass available. I had lunch with the family in our city who were able to reach out, and this man of god travelled interstate from Melbourne to Queensland to do TLM originally to only 9 people in somebody’s home. He would do a morning mass in Brisbane, hope on a plane and do the evening mass in Melbourne. My family joined only recently and currently they hire a scouts hall out once a month in Brisbane and thankfully there are now two priests who swap out months but are still servicing 5 different areas across Australia. We have so many churches, cathedrals in Brisbane, beautiful ones. And this mass will not be listed on the Archdiocese of Brisbane and no church allows even once a month for the mass to be done at any time in their church. I’m new to Catholicism but let it be known, I would not be catholic if we hadn’t found Traditional Latin Mass. it’s the only mass or church service I’ve been to which felt correct for me. And yet there is no support available. They have to attempt to go fund me for the hope to one day buy their own humble church. I pray to Our Lady that she may intercede and through our Lord Jesus Christ somehow, someday our priests could come on a podcast like this and share their incredible story. Of what is their motivation to do this and receive nothing back from the world and nothing back even from the Holy Catholic Church? Their motives are the most pure I’ve seen in their commitment to serving God and preserving the mass of the ages which was practiced for almost 2000 years and is now shunned by the Catholic Hierarchy as if it were a Black Mass. The fruit of their work is undeniably Good and I know through Christ Our Lord one day Mary Help of Christians in Australia will have a church in every state. For the first time in my whole life I went to worship hungry as I always have but with one difference this time, I left full. If for some reason you read this far thank you I don’t know what made me type all of this out right now but please pray for us if you feel to.
God bless you guys, and welcome home! So sorry that it's a home filled with unrest at this time, but we're praying for the peace of Our Lord to fill it and eventually open the eyes of the leadership. I keep thinking that the situation of TLMers now has its roots in the early Christians worshipping in the catacombs under the dead of night. God sustained His people then, and He will continue to sustain us through this persecution from within. I will pray that He will send you more priests and a parish of your own. There are more young seminarians here who want to celebrate the Latin Mass than the Vatican would like you to think, and I'm in the Pacific NW of the US which is infamous for being unchurched! Latin Mass families also tend to have 5-8 children and many vocations. So please keep the faith and I know God will send you more servants for the vineyard.
@@radmomthoughts3507 Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I don't even know how we got here, well I do, intercession of Our Lady and prayer. Now to find ourselves at the ground point of what I believe will be waves of children of God returning home is a true blessing. Thank you for your prayers and kind words, God bless you and your family!
The SSPX is in most US cities. Until recently many traditional catholics thought the SSPX was too radical. Then they had their Latin Mass community taken from them.
Yep. That's me. I love my parish, but I would go to SSPX if/when the TLM is taken from us. Merely a couple of years ago that would've been unthinkable for me.
You should avoid the SSPX at all costs, not just because of its lack of communion with the church, but because it’s a very cultish environment. PwA has a great episode with John Salza on the SSPX.
@@andym5995 the SSPX is in communion with the Church. Sure, its situation is "canonically irregular", but that's a huge difference from not being in communion with the Church. Learn about its founding and why there was a falling off between the Church and Abp. Lefebvre. It's not as black and white as you might think. As for the supposedly cultish atmosphere, I don't have any personal experience to speak about. But I'd rather have a less than ideal atmosphere than lose the Traditional Latin Mass. Besides, it's hard to blame them for being skeptical about the situation in the Church at large, given everything that has transpired since Va II and with the current Pope.
@@cfban If you operate against the wishes of every bishop in the world and set up rival altars to the legitimate ones, and offer illicit masses daily, you are in no way, shape, or form “in communion.” And you are right, the history is pretty clear- the popes were exceedingly patient and generous with Lefebvre and he spat on their offers. What if you were pope and a bishop very publicly disrespected and disobeyed you for almost 20 years, and yet they were still going to give him a bishop after all that? I do have personal experience. Lots of it. It is a cult and you should stay far away. A nice liturgy is not worth it. All the smells and bells mean nothing if your community lacks Christian charity.
@@andym5995 I'm sorry, but it is not a matter of opinion. SSPX is communion with the Church. Pope Francis of all people recognizes that. He himself has recognized their faculty to offer the sacraments. They're in communion and that's not something that we can argue about. And if the TLM is just "a nice Liturgy", then maybe it should disappear. Who really cares? The New Mass can be a "nice Liturgy" as well, if celebrated properly. It can even be in Latin! No, the TLM is not just a "nice Liturgy". That's just Liturgical illiteracy. This is the point where people who do not see the evil of the restrictions (or worse, the people who applaud them) miss the mark. The Mass that the Church developed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the generations to honor and worship God, the Church's biggest treasure, the legacy of the Saints, the pinnacle and center of Christian civilization, is not just "nice". It is the closest that Earth can ever get to Heaven until Our Lord comes again. And that, my friend, is worth anything, up to, including and surpassing, having some mean people in the community.
I am confident, that God has a plan for the catholic church. We don't see it or understand it. But it's clear that the demons own our society and culture. The first time, since ages. But there is still god, our catholic church and we with Jesus
Every time I hear a Church close it's saddening. All churches start small then grow. Then as a large Church it's sold which is pretty stupid. Large Churches that are in financial struggles need to get small again. Sell lands, sell buildings but don't remove the Eucharist from that community.
I went to Adoration & as I was leaving I was approached by the local parish priest and asked why I was praying in Latin. Firstly, I was alone in there and whispering or speaking in very low tones. My response was I try to pray as my patron saint would have prayed, when possible. Walk in their footsteps, right? He told me that people who might come for Adoration might be made uncomfortable if they heard me pray in Latin. So how I pray should be determined by someone who may or may not show up and who may or may not feel uncomfortable? I converted & was baptized three years ago. If nothing else, it has certainly been interesting.
Latin is a very beautiful language and a key part of the western historical heritage, and it should be preserved and spoken. But God probably doesn’t care what language you pray to him in.
@@stevenjames6830 Exactly right. So if God doesn't care, why should someone else, a priest, no less? I'm glad I didn't suggest that to be the case. It'll cut back on but not eliminate the people who show up to infer I did. That's just the internet. Say anything & someone will anoint themselves to "correct" you. Its doubly hilarious when they misfire in their haste, isn't it? Maybe I'm off base, but if I saw or heard someone devoting time to God & trying to be closer to Him, it would seem wrong of me to try to steer them away from that.
That’s what the Mass was intended to be after Vatican II: the ordinaries prayed in Latin and the propers in the vernacular (so we can understand it). Mine also does a reverent Novus Ordo 😊
@peteb6805 so you proved my point, actually. Latin is the easy part, they're halfway there. The rubrics aren't much more to learn. So again, why not just learn it and offer it? What is the hang up?
@peteb6805 No, I didn't contradict myself. Again, you simply proved that everyone who insists "Latin is too hard, nobody can understand it" is wrong, and it CAN be learned easily. That is always the excuse given that we can't have the Latin Mass that has been the Catholic liturgy for 1500+ years
I attend one of two Diocesan TLMs in Austin. After 3 1/2 years of attending these after 55+ years of the Novus Ordo Mass, I feel robbed of my heritage as a Catholic. My opinion, although others who I break fast with after the 7:30 am Mass feel the same.
Couldn't agree with you more. I was beyond shocked to discover that TLM existed on Dec 2019 right before COVID. Eventually, I went to my first TLM during COVID and gradually moved to it. The best example to describe not knowing about TLM throughout my life is like some deep dark family secret that's not supposed to be talked about and nobody knew. Several TLMs in DFW and a couple in RGV. In Austin, is it St. Mary's Cathedral and St. Martin de Porres in Dripping Springs? Any others? Thank you!
I understand your frustration; however the SSPX are not in full communion with the Church. They exercise no legitimate authority since they have not received a mission through Her authority structure. When they set up churches (note these are called "chapels" because they are outside the ecclesiastical structure of the Church) and celebrate mass, they do so without the express permission of their Bishops and therefore illicitly. This is a grave problem that is destructive to the Church's unity (I have experienced this quite painfully in my own family). I am also in the Diocese of Austin and can verify that our Bishop, Joe Vasquez has confirmed (in response to my inquiry), that SSPX masses are illicit and do not fulfill the Sunday obligation of Catholics. So as a fellow Catholic I would strongly recommend that you stay away from that group.@@josephwagner3224
You were robbed. I was robbed too. I've been attending the TLM for almost two years after 28 years of Novus Ordo. I baptized my son in the traditional Latin rite, and I feel robbed there as well. My father was baptized in the traditional form. So was my grandfather, and my great grandfather, and my great great grandfather, and so on until my first Visigothic ancestor who converted to Catholicism probably 1500 years ago. I am the only one in my lineage who was not baptized in the traditional Latin rite. I absolutely feel robbed.
@@cfban Oh my, that's deep. I knew I was traditionally baptized in the old rite in 1967, but after doing some investigative work, found out this year that I went through the traditional confirmation as well that year. A few years before things went Novus Ordo in or around 1970. I do know that my First Confession and Communion was Novus Ordo in 1974. I have a faint memory of going to my mom to mass, but not sure if it was prior to 1970 or not. Part of me wants to believe I was there, but I can't confirm. After that, it was Novus Ordo for decades. So happy I was led back by the Holy Ghost. Peace to ya'll!
Rest in the Lord and wait patiently for Him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. Psalm 37:7
We are living in a time where divisions among communities are growing wider and wider, here in the United States, in our Church, and among are own families. There are forces seeking to build disunity within the Catholic Church, and that includes hostility to Pope Francis and Vatican II. I would urge all who feel the currents of internal strife to step back, fall upon your love and charity, and focus on how we are united by the good news of Jesus the Christ. Remember, division is a tool of the Enemy. Let no one be tempted by the sin of denouncing others within the body of Christ, when the solution is for all within the body to talk through disagreements with love and compassion for each other.
why is there division? it's very clear, but difficult to admit. Jesus proclaimed that the house of His Father had been defiled and turned into a den of vipers. we must pray, and we must be an example that speaks against evil, and not hide it. prayers for the clergy.
@@b.o7815 It is Gods will, through the work of the Holy Spirt, that Pope Francis was elected, as it was that Pope John XXIII convened the Second Vatican Council and Pope Paul VI concluded it with its outcomes of Constitutions, Declarations, and Decrees to help address the Church’s ecumenical efforts to address the modern needs of the faithful.
@@LiliGoof-gh4ch You are correct, the Holy Spirit doesn’t choose the Pope in conclave, but the College of Cardinals in the conclave choose the new Pope while praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Additionally, the Holy Spirit provides guidance to the ecumenical councils, like Vatican II, and does protect the teachings of the councils from error. Bless you!
I think what I heard is lots of people joined the church and really love the Latin mass. And then the Pope announced that most of the people who joined for these aren't allowed to have it.
@LiliGoof-gh4ch Look, I empathize with you, I really do. Shortly after I converted, I attended an SSPX Mass for a while without knowing anything about the controversy... until the homilies started to have some angry words for Pope JP2. And then those angry words started to become a routine feature of the Mass. That's horrible. I think there are liturgical abuses from both the leftists and radical traditionalists. I agree that our present Pope is not being as hard on the leftists as he is on the "radtrads", and that makes me very sad. I would like to tone my rhetoric when engaging Catholics who are suffering from the loss of a beautiful Liturgy that honors God by offering Him our best. That said, we can't tolerate any Catholic committing mortal sin through pride, wrath, sloth, envy, or anything else that puts our preferences above the fundamental duty of every Christian, and that is to live the Gospel every single day, no matter the circumstances.
I will never understand restricting Latin mass. They are the fastest growing services and it's overwhelmingly younger people. It's almost to the point where I question if it's an intentionally self defeating policy? I wonder that because conservative traditional Catholics in the USA are driving the movement and Pope Francis called us out for no reason.
It breeds a toxic environment that is spreading so wide that the Vatican is aware of it. Some people think they're too good for the NO and look down on other faithful Catholics to the point they'd rather not go to Mass at all than go to one. What kind of warped ideology is that?
I posted this below two other comments here. I just feel like people need to hear it. I tend not to worry about this too much because I know the Church is on the winning side, no matter what. Like Padre Pio said, “Pray, hope, and don’t worry.” And try not to assume what is in other people’s hearts, especially the Pope. God bless. Concerns aside, he’s still the Pope. I wish the TLM wasn’t being restricted as well, but there’s probably a reason for it. There are people who won’t attend the Novus Ordo if they can’t get to the TLM, which is mortal sin. This clip references the Mass of the Ages documentary, which featured people like that. We do not need to be promoting those people. We need to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt and pray for him and not assume what his intentions are. If Holdsworth didn’t state he assumes as much, I think he came pretty close to it. I think people who attend a certain liturgy and dislike other liturgies should ask themselves, “Would my faith be ok if I didn’t have this liturgy and had to attend a different one?” Because if it wouldn’t, I don’t even know if that’s the Church’s problem. That might be that person’s problem. The liturgy is supposed to point to the truth. Whatever direction the priest faces, that part of the Mass is a symbol. I may prefer it a certain way, but in a sense it doesn’t matter which way he’s turned. Because what isn’t a symbol is the Eucharist. What isn’t a symbol is the whole of Heaven being present. What isn’t a symbol is what actually happens at every Mass, no matter what liturgy it is. If you leave the Church or ignore her based on your personal preference, that’s really just another form of Protestantism.
Because it's obvious how much TLM people has a tendency to schismatics sentiments and to act like they're holier and better than the "Novus Ordo catholics" just because of the rite. Of course, not all people who attends TLM acts or thinks like that, but it's clear by looking peoples opinion in the internet or by personal experience that it's an issue you can't pretend it doesn't exist. Furthermore, the Missal of St. Paul VI is the ordinary rite, wich means, it's how the Mass should be prayed today. There's no logic in "expanding" TLM. Can't see why priests who wants to pray the Mass more "TLM" like, just don't aply it to the ordinary missal, unless they think Paul VI's Missal is full of errors, wich is the argument of the SSPX. I understand why Pope Francis restricted it and how many people reacted to it actually are a testament on how the Pope is right in some of his point. But I wish he acted more energetically to fight liturgical abuses, Desiderio desideravi was a good start but I think it should be followed with more concrete measures.
The good Lord must have His reasons for allowing this Pope to be elected - don't you think? Bishops are getting away with bad things because nobody is standing up to them. They are not untouchable if they are doing the wrong thing. But the question is how?
Maybe having a bad pope is exposing all the bad prelates in the Church that has developed in the rot of the post VII era. Maybe this will force all Catholics to wake up.
Yes, He has good reasons: Punishment. For everything, from the Liturgical reform to the watering down of the Faith to the mass increase in apostasy. We are being punished by the Lord.
There are only two weapons for us to use. Personal holiness and defunding the institutional Church. Stop giving them money. The way I see it the Lord is pruning the tree of the dead branches. What killed the Church in the west anyway is contraception which ushered in all the other sexual sins. The laity refused Christ’s authority and the clerics either agreed with their rebellion or were frightened into silence and became complicit. Anyone who is in mortal sin can not be fruitful in the Kingdom of God no matter how many Masses they attend. So people got tired of the conflict between their consciences and their Faith so they just deluded themselves and left. About 80% of Catholics don’t even attend Mass. of those who do vast percentages of them “dissent” from church teachings which places them in the mortal sin of heresy. Then they go to Communion committing another mortal sin of sacrilege. So the actual percentage of baptized Catholics in union with Christ is very small. Apparently too small to make any discernible difference. Thus we get shepherds we deserve.
In Sasktoon we have a similar situation to Edmonton with an FSSP apostolate. It's experienced solid growth, despite having mass times that are less than ideal every day of the week except Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. My understanding if that the FSSP does have an exemption from TC which is good, and we are working on getting our own Church and Fr. Lawrence (the North American Provincial superior) is quite adamant that's the plan. It's hard to make arrangements for that though.
I feel the distress that Brian expresses, it’s shameful what Francis has wrought upon the most spiritually active Catholics! I pray for the church and its future!
There's no evidence that you're more "spiritually active" than anyone else. Quite frankly, a Companions of the Cross (charismatic) parish is quite likely up to a lot more than you are or have ever been. The arrogance of this statement is in part why you face this - this constantly professed notion that you are better or truer than the rest of us.
From Ireland. More Trust and Faith in Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament , Adoration, weather Jesus is exposed or not. Thats whats important as Catholics. Not which Mass you attend. As if Jesus is more present in one over another. Pray , fast, help your parish out at local level. Be happy, smile and have confidence in the Holy Spirit to protect Christ's church.🙏☘️
Lets say that Jesus is present in holy Ucarist in n.o. mass (witch I hope is not), he is not treated revenently. How can you say it is the most holy thing ever and treat it like they do grabing it like a kooky. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. and it shoes. Since n.o. mass become the norm the Church and the west has fallen to its knees, evil spirits roam free and the west has truly become the enemys domain. (abortion praized, sodomy praizedm, this transgender lunicy and so on.)
I also attend a TLM. The priest was telling me recently that it’s not so much the Pope that is against the TLM, but it Cardinal Arthur Roche who is the Prefect of the Dicastery for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Still, the Pope has to be an accomplice to this attack to eradicate the TLM. I don’t understand why I read that the TLM cannot be eliminated, but that is exactly what they are doing. Every new priest that wants to say a TLM, they actually have to get approval from Rome to do so. The priests are being allowed to minister to those that currently want the TLM and the hope is that eventually all will die out. Someone I know from the Norvus Ordo happened to come to the TLM and didn’t know that we had this local. I introduced her to the priest and he never welcomed her to come. After she left, he told me that they are not allowed to welcome people to come to the TLM. I guess it’s seen as recruiting. The Pope/Roche/powers that be in Rome, are truly trying to snuff out the faithful and the TLM.
Francis has declared his disdain for traditional Latin mass, he's nothing but a communist in sheep's clothing, I have no idea why Catholics continue to abide by his "rulings."
The reason is that Catholicism is hemorrhaging people. They can’t afford to do everything with extremely orthodox people like you in mind. If they do they won’t exist in 100 years.
The Anglican Ordinariate Parish I went to was closed due to the Church not being able to sustain the funds to fix the building, and our community not being "large" enough to sustain a priest. I've started going to the Greek Slovak Byzantine Catholic Church because the Novus Ordo parishes in my area are super liberal.
I love the Latin Mass, but I've always been able to tell how lots of the people who attend the TLM really look down at this Pope and the Novus Ordo. The fact that they try to put a (tall) fence between them and the Pope and the Novus Ordo is a clear sign of an issue of communion with the Western Church. Are there any abuses on the Novus Ordo? Absolutely, unfortunately! But you don't fix an issue by staying away from it and talking smack about it. The Pope is seeking to end these types of divisions, as well as others, and he's not being act credit - on the contrary.
What's the Novus Ordo? I thought I was a Catholic, but I've only been to Latin Mass once, and this comment section really makes me feel like I'm not doing it right.
The Novus Ordo, the rite created in the XX century, where the priest celebrates "ad populum" facing the worshipers. Thought it can be celebrated in Latin, it is not a norm. It has a focus on the participation of the common worshippers. The Tridentine Rite, was created in the XVI century, the priest celebrates "ad oriens" facing the east, or altar. It is always celebrated in Latin. Only the priest and deacons interact with the ritual, excluding obviously, the eucharistical feast.@@christophermanley3602
How does it feel knowing your spirituality, formation, and way of articulating the faith is only allowed as a pastoral sensitivity and that your catholic ethos is expected to be phased out of the life of the church now that the Church needs to change and further develop her practices and doctrines?
I'm old enough to remember the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass as well as when the Church went to the Novus Ordo. Somehow, I don't remember a backlash about ending the TLM, and at that time the TLM was much, much more restricted than what it is today. Somehow, the Church survived and no one was saying objectionable things about Pope St Paul VI.
Well the internet wasn't around back then. So while there were indeed many people who were upset and many that left the church (including nuns, parish priests, and those in religious orders), you wouldn't have necessarily seen or heard about it unless you intentionality investigated.
@@-GodIsMyJudge- It's easy to blame the Novus Ordo Mass for that, but I don't think that was the reason for people leaving the Church. Don't forget that the heresy of modernism was being kicked into high gear at the time with the advent of the 'pill'. It is not the liturgy that results in priests and nuns leaving but satan himself. In other words, Vatican II was coincidental to modernism but not the reason for it.
@@-GodIsMyJudge-Did people really love primarily because of the Mass though? I remember a survey done among religious priests and nuns who left and some of the main reasons included wanting to get married and arguments with superiors. I don’t know if the Mass was the main cause of the exodus.
It's bigger than just the Latin mass. Pope Francis, in his attempt to be friendly to people who openly reject Church doctrine and practice, makes Catholics who strive to be devout and faithful feel ostracized.
Matt, we are not being tolerated. Latin mass has been forbidden in parish churches so we have lost our parish life! We are banished to oratories, chapels etc. where we can only attend a Sunday mass and Holy Days of Obligation are not offered, nor are Requiem Masses or Nuptial Masses, Baptisms, etc. This is not tolerating faithful Catholics in their parish life.
So what? Go to standard, non latin mass. If it is the opposite I would have no problem attending latin mass. People worshipped in tombs with dead bodies around them, and being scared for their life. It should not matter what type of mass we celebrate as long as the sacraments are there.
@@m.935I know of a great mass where they have an awesome interpretive dance routine done during mass. The sacraments are there. Enjoy the show…i mean mass.
@@m.935The short answer is that there are liturgical abuses in the novus ordo; prayers are eliminated or seriously truncated. If the Mass is celebrated ad orientem, communion is distributed on the tongue, by the sanctified hands of a priest, and there are no lay readers, it is like a Catholic Mass and not a Protestant service but it still is not the Mass that nurtured the saints for centuries.
@@neil2831 In my country there is no such thing as dancing during mass. I live in Croatia. It would be a scandal on a massive scale. The only dance we support is in some countries in Africa where it is part of their culture to express worship through singing and dancing in appropriate moments during Catholic mass. I don't think it has anything to do with novus ordo, but culture in America. You are trying to change the wrong thing.
I do think that the Church needs to find a way to deal with this issue properly relatively fast, because we have way bigger problems. Right now, we've got German bishops trying have gay marriage, we have a Catholic population in which the majority does not go to church, we have an actual significant portion of Catholic clergy and episcopate trying to push gay marriage AND female ordination (both of which contradict the Deposit of Faith), and here we are, fighting about how many Masses a week are going to be said in Latin and how many are going to be said in English. I mean, come on. Let me give you some perspective as a Catholic from an area where the Faith is actually growing and winning new converts: the rural South. Like most Catholics down here, I am deeply conservative and I am also deeply orthodox. I am also a young man. I have also never been to a Traditional Latin Mass or even seen or heard of a church where it is offered in my area. Unlike most areas, the Church here is very young, very active, very orthodox, but most of us are completely oblivious to this whole discussion. I would not be surprised if your average practicing 20-year-old Catholic in Texas doesn't even know what a Traditionalist Catholic is. I'm just saying - right now is time to focus on protecting the Church from the world. Once the worldly infiltration of the Church has been beaten back some, we can then discuss liturgy.
This issue goes back many decades to a rift caused during Vatican II. I understand that many young Catholic converts have no connection to this, but it’s a pretty big issue that is threatening to maybe result in a Reformation-era type of split if it doesn’t get handled. So I see why Pope Francis takes it so seriously. That said, I believe he is mismanaging the situation badly, and certainly not taking the other side of schism (the LGBT/liberal arm) seriously. The right with the liberal arm of the church is public, whereas the fight with the reactionary arm is more an in-house affair. But both are serious threats to the church. And neither appear to be handled well, at this time at least. Maybe the passage of time will vindicate Pope Francis. In the meantime keep on focusing on your faith and don’t worry about either arm. The gates of hell shall not prevail
I was raised in the Tridentine Mass and saw it suppressed in my later 20s. It was painful, but, now as a priest for almost 50 years, I love the Novus Ordo and have never celebrated of been inclined to celebrate the Latin Mass. I have absolutely no problems with it, nor do I have issues with the people who prefer it. Though I'm Sicilian-American, I have relatives who are Ukrainian Greek (Byzantine) Catholics and Carpatho-Russian Orthodox, so I'm still open to liturgies that are traditional and unchanged. Having written this long intro, let me say that Francis' "Traditionis custodes" was an ugly jolt. In spite of my personal indifference toward the Latin Mass and knowing a few afictionados of the Latin Mass who've annoyed me with their holier-than--though, cloyingly pious attitude, the majority are just fine Catholics trying to live an authentic Catholic life as individuals, families and community. But, the holier-than-thou group's outright hostility and dismissal of the canonical legitimacy of Pope Francis that unnerved me, but they were few among the crowd. The day Francis ascended the Chair of Peter, the US news commented that he was known to have an explosive temper, and this motu proprio proved it. I was not the only priest who saw it and was deeply disturbed by the angry and even mean spiritedness exhibited in Francis' attitude. It was neither fatherly (il papa) nor pastoral; it was almost vengeful, an proclivity the world's seen when he's even directed this anger at participants of general audiences. Beneath the smiles and quips seems to be a raging volcano about the spout the destructive lava of his wrath. In a word, the motu proprio was seen demonstrate a mean-minded, punitive attitude by many pro-Francis priests and Church commentators, obviously myself included. He has the unsavory attitude toward cloying virtue signaling, which is tiring, not unlike the ever petulant and self-righteous Greta Thunberg. He has called out people by name, directly, questioning their being truly Christians. He's done this openly to President Trump over many issues and has been openly critical about the sincerity and validity of the faith practiced by US Catholics. I've been around since Pius XII and have never heard such reprobate condemning by a pope. As the late Cardinal George lamented about Francis, he remains completely ambiguous and opaque on critical issues, shooting from the hip without regard for collateral damage by his not-so-friendly gunfire from the hip. My question to him is "How do you lead a flock of some 1.2 to 1.4 billion souls with ambiguity and maintain community cohesion and coherence." Rather, when presented with valid "dubbia" about his pronouncements in encyclicals, his response is either petulant silence or attack. He said he was no at all concerned about a possible schism. What about Jesus' prayer that "they all be one?" He doesn't speak in paradoxes; he pontificates in contradictions. While he rightly call for a compassionate and listening Church, he's unapologetically closed and condemnatory to his perceived "enemies." For fifty years I've worked with, assisted and defended the undocumented immigrants that arrive at our borders. I've defended their right to migrate and explained the Church's teaching of the issues to news reporters and journalists from various countries - even PBS. But, he calls for a dangerous and destructive chaos. If there is a murderous terrorist attack in the US (like in Israel and Europe) because of unbridled immigration, will he and Biden take responsibility for their incomprehensible irresponsibility? Will he ask us to forgive and forget, as he seems to be asking the Israelis? John Paul II wrote in his encyclical, "Evangelium vitæ," that national leaders and parents have no right to be pacifists. In other words, they have the right and duty to protect their nations and families with proportional force. Last, he's more controlling than any pope during my lifetime., and a father who controls tends to be an abusive father. The abusive father always tries to act well during public situations, but there is a rage underneath. In private he berates and injures his dependent family members. There is no insight into himself, so he accuses and beats his family who "force" him to hurt them spiritually, emotionally and/or physically to teach them according to a perverse pedagogy. It's never his fault but always his family's and never an apology , because they just refuse to learn. It's an attitude of "I own you; you're completely mine, and I'll do with you as I wish." Thus, there is a violation of boundaries. You must be whom he wants you to be: gay, fine; Latin Mass Catholic; no way.
Thank you for this explanation Father. I have been troubled to understand Pope Francis and this has given me better insight. As an adult Catholic convert, I came into the Church shortly before Pope Francis was elected to the papacy. Fortunately I have read a fair bit of Church History and it has helped me see that the Church has survived many periods of bad leadership and therefore trust that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail." However, it has been frustrating to have a pope who seems to opposes any areas of the church that are producing good fruit, and is incredibly confusing and lacking in leadership on any subject that desperately needs clarity and good shepherding!!
@@frjimomi los argentinos más italianizados...son jodones..no alegres...y vociferan por nada...aquí en el norte de Argentina te hubieras ido a los puños por comportamiento mucho menos ofensivo que el que se espera que soportes en buenos aires...y como el papa está para estar señalando siempre el punto ciego que ni siquiera sabemos que tenemos...creo que le viene bien...los alegres son otros hispanos
Y siempre lo comparan con Juan Pablo II y Benedicto...pero yo me acuerdo cuando era chico que no pasaba mes o semana a veces que no salga alguien que como puede haber dicho o hecho tal o cual cosa el papa...es como una tradición católica ya hablar mal del sucesor de Pedro...menos mal que Benedicto renunció...sino lo matábamos antes
Latin Mass is being quashed at Westminster Cathedral in London. Fewer and fewer Latin Masses in the UK now. I do hope we can get through this! We are blessed locally by a wonderful priest who keeps the Novus Ordo mass as close as possible to the spirit of the traditional, with sung parts in Latin, Gregorian chant and powerful homilies, and plenty of incense.
✝ Pope Francis comes across like some type of liberal united nations ambassador instead of a real pope.The Catholic Church needs someone like the great German cardinal Gerhard Muller to lead.
We are having to beg for our birthright. Our diocese has “permitted” us to go to a TLM mass at a diocesan church (hoping the pope will eventually sign off on it, and having now kicked us out of the diocesan parish where we have been at home for years), and we are only permitted Sunday masses. We don’t even have a mass on Christmas Day at this parish church, or any holy day of obligation. Those only happen at the shrine an hour away. Am I grateful that we have it at all? Yes. But I’m tired of having to kiss the hand that beats me.
As much as I'd love to have Latin mass, we don't have the Latin mass on my island, (and ALL 4 of my family members have complex health issues making it difficult to just up and move). Other than that, this is a very good clip and I agree it's a shame. I'm not opposed to the Latin mass at all, as I said, we just don't have it here. I would love to be going to the Latin mass.
I look forward to discussions about the Latin Mass. Like this discussion, it reminds me of those people in a communist or fascist country, who can’t really express what they feel for fear of being erased. I wonder if more Catholics with influence and exposure were less inhibited, the hierarchy would be more repressive or more accepting of the TLM. Where is this situation headed? Can you read the tea leaves and speculate?
Hostility to the Latin mass extends down to the priesthood in some cases. At a Novis Ordo mass I attended last week the priest said, from the pulpit, "Can you imagine a mass where the priest had his back to you for an hour and mumbled in Latin so you had no idea what he was saying and they had to ring bells to wake you up?. Well that's the way it was when i was ordained in 1964. Thank God the Second Vatican Council changed that." I was quite surprised to hear a priest talk that way!
@@brandywineblue what do you mean by “understand” the Mass? What age of children are we talking about? What is their level of comprehension? Stating the truth is not bigotry.
Obedience is a difficult virtue; it is never easy to surrender one's own will and rely on something outside of ourselves. we are called to have faith, but some calls are more difficult than others. have faith brothers and sisters.
@@myfakinusername A collapse in the belief in the Real Presence, as well Church attendance, ordinations, Catholic marriages and baptisms. Sexual and financial scandal, a betrayal of the Faithful Underground Church in China. homoheresy running amok.. Tell me where any of this is a lie ??????????????
I think we should keep the Latin Mass restricted, and also have priests speak against lukewarmness or closing parishes that don’t get attendance. Why not cut out the deficiency and the excess at the same time? Also, this is some false ignorance, pretending that you don’t see issues with TLM communities.
Sedevacantism comes from the trads. Pope Francis answered a dubia on why he restricted the Latin Mass. It is the divisiveness from trads that led to the restrictions. Be real traditionalists:. Obedient to the church. Trad priests and bishops should honor their obedience oaths, right?
My deep reverence for the Traditional Latin Mass is unwavering; however, it prompts me to reflect upon the apparent pride exhibited by those who attend it. Traditional Latin Mass adherents often embark on a quest to establish the supremacy of their liturgical practice over the Novus Ordo Mass and the associated parishes. They frequently resort to numerical comparisons, citing the greater attendance at a TLM Mass in contrast to a Novus Ordo gathering. This, however, fails to consider the disparity in availability between the two forms. The theological nuances of this situation evoke profound contemplation. Within the community of devout traditionalists, there emerges a categorical rejection of the Novus Ordo Mass as a legitimate mode of divine worship. Such unwavering convictions propel them toward an augmented sense of isolation, which subsequently engenders a perceived spiritual superiority when interacting with those beyond their immediate sphere. Perturbingly, this mindset has given rise to a disquieting trend of undermining the Magisterium and challenging the legitimacy of ecclesiastical authority. This trend deepens their present disillusionment with the state of the Church, fostering theological doubt and uncertainties regarding divine providence. In fairness, it is imperative to acknowledge that not all traditionalists subscribe to this characterization. Nevertheless, my personal observations in the local context compel me to discern that the traditionalist movement in my vicinity is bereft of innate attraction. In light of these considerations, one may legitimately query why individuals from outside their immediate circles would gravitate towards their convictions. This prevailing approach to the faith journey appears to deviate from the foundational principles of effective evangelization, raising theological and philosophical questions deserving of contemplation and discussion.
I don't think that there is anything wrong in admitting that the TLM is a superior form of worship. It just is. Not only is it more reverent, but it is the result of the organic development of the entire Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through 1500 years. In contrast, the NO Mass was created by a committee in the span of a few years. It doesn't mean that the NO Mass is invalid, or that it isn't divine worship. But I think that it should be obvious that what the entire Church constructed during 1500 years is going to be more timeless and appropriate for worship, than what a committee (as experts as they might be, but some of them had clearly bad intentions) created in a few years.
@@cfban When Martin Luther broke away from the Church, there was only one liturgy available and that was the Latin Mass. No one has done more damage to the Church then he did, but I digress. Yes, poorly celebrated NO Masses did nothing to help the Church but there are poorly celebrated Latin Masses as well. I have heard from one person that they once attended 20 minute daily Latin Masses when they were growing up. I highly doubt that the priest was celebrating that Mass as the superior form of worship. In the beginning there was no liturgy as the first Christians broke bread and received their portion on the hand and yet the Church grew. The Holy Spirit guided the Church at that time, through the Latin Mass ages, and now.
@@clq2461 what does Martin Luther have to do with anything that I said? And sure, we can cherry pick examples of sloppy Masses in any rite, but that's not what I'm talking about. Although the worst and sloppiest TLM will be a rushed and mumbled Low Mass; the worst NO Mass will be literally a clown show with bubbles, rock n' roll, and dancing in the sanctuary . When I say that the TLM is the superior form of worship, I am talking about the Order of the Mass, not about any individual celebration. The old Order of the Mass captures better the divine and sacrificial nature of the Mass. That is the most important thing of the Liturgy, way more than the bells and smells. That's what I am saying. The worst, sloppiest and most rushed TLM will still have a superior Order of the Mass than the most beautiful Novus Ordo with Latin, Gregorian chant, incense and reverence.
To the people who love TLM and say that the FSSPX is too radical: Ok. You can't just ignore everything the pope says. I get that. What do you do when the pope just prohibits TLM in your parish though?
In my city there is a single TLM parish, and that parish has easily 5-6 times more people attending than any other NO mass. Lots of young people too, and they’re raising so much money. It’s ironic (dare I say, intentional) that Traditionis Custodes was meant to “prevent division” by the “schismatic” traditionalists, when in reality it has only caused immense division. There isn’t a single trad catholic that feels more in union with the Vatican after TC.
The 'preventing division' thing is so ridiculous that I can't believe it. It has to have been done to create division, to root out traditionalists. It's not surprising when so many of the top church leadership seem to actually despise real Catholicism. They judge the church by progressive standards and want the church to conform to those
I'm in a parish in Winchester, VA and it's standing room only at most masses. Why? It's a very traditional parish. It offers confession during mass at every mass. It has kneelers for communion. The priests preach boldly. Yes, It is NO, but a LM is offered in the school multi purpose room.
I don't really understand what all of this is about, but I hope yall can get your Latin mass back. Glad its really hard to change anything in our Church. Good luck! ☦️
I grew up with mass in latin, a language no one I knew spoke. I was an observer not a participant. The move to the vernacular was amazing, here was a mass I could fully understand and feel part of. When sent out to spread the gospel the apostles were given the gift to understand and speak languages other than hebrew, for me the foundation of the vernacular. The Bible makes no mention of Jesus speaking Latin despite the Roman occupation
@@glennlanham6309YEAH WELL YOU WOULD SAY THAT my brother because man, I have seen some awful stuff from each side. Hurts to see members of the body of Christ so determined to tear each other apart over factions.
@@fujikokunThere is, but as someone who was raised Protestant and only converted this year, I never really got much crap for being Baptist unless I started deliberately debating points in Catholic spaces. Since converting to Catholicism, I've been condemned to hell more in the last few months than the previous 25 years of my life. People constantly calling me an idolator, Papist, Romanist, Mary-worshipping, Pelagianist and so on. Protestant is, in fact, a protest, and I didn't notice the spirit of rebellion in Protestantism until I left it.
My main question for trad Catholics is why don’t you go to your local parish? Is it that the TLM is aesthetically pleasing? The parish is too elderly? You don’t consider the NO valid? All of these questions are based in Protestant thinking. If you’re a catholic you should do what the Church says. If the Church wants everyone to go to their local parish and use the same liturgy then you should do it. All of the “problems” with the NO parishes would be fixed by everyone attending and participating with their local liturgies
I am glad the converts eyes are finally opened and they feel secure enough in their knowledge of the faith, and no longer allow themselves to be "gaslighted." I know that a newcomer feels obliged to demonstrate loyalty to the Church, but we are sadly in the situation where the children have to correct their Father
No tendrá que ver con que este es el camino de otra escisión en la iglesia? Los obispos alemanes con su modernismo y los latinistas yéndose por el mismo derrotero que la asociación San pio x? Con los anti vaticano segundo? No será ese el peligro que se trata de corregir? Hasta el padre Riperger dijo que los trads ya parecen gnósticos...ven conmigo...tengo este secreto escondido aquí
@hectorguillermopantalena8700 so when did it suddenly become not OK to warn a friend that they are driving straight off a cliff? Today's attitude is that a real friend would not only say nothing about it, but also "accompany" that driver to support them...with support defined as "putting cinder blocks on the gas pedal without diverting the steering wheel from the edge."
@@brandywineblue donde dije algo parecido a que no hay que corregir? Yo dije que hay corregir los dos extremos...y que solo los oigo quejarse y no preguntarse que podemos estár haciendo mal...
Question: if keeping the community is the priority, couldn’t you keep attending the parish & attend the NO? If the Eucharist is the priority would it be worth leaning into the NO to maintain the parish life?
All these professional lay Catholics seem to avoid their local parishes....it's always some special Byzantine rite oratory 100 miles away...Maybe some of them are being called to come down to be with their brothers and sisters...not in a presbyterian style society of the elect, but with the baddies and cafeteria catholics, and regular screwed up people.
Exactly this. I think part of the reason is the (admittedly correct) idea that the mass is supposed to nourish us spiritually, so they conclude a lackluster liturgy or spiritually dead parish is to be avoided for the sake of their own souls. Maybe so, but that is something of a weakness. The problem I see with this reasoning though is that there is a whole Church shopping consumerist mentality that creeps in... I hate sounding saccharine and corny but we have obligations to our brothers and sisters in our territorial parish. If the parish is ailing, then you have some responsibility over that as well. The sacraments are the main nourishment, and thankfully they work ex opera operato, but spiritual health isn't just about nourishment but also about exercising our "particular office" and spiritual gifts, so to speak, designated for us at the sacrament of confirmation.
I say this with all the love I can muster I have absolutely no clue what your point is here. Can you articulate your stance in more direct concrete terms
@@ItBeTheWayItDoSomeTimesI think what he's saying is that some people are being very picky about the parish they attend for reasons not entirely related to piety (ex. maybe they think their local parish "isn't reverent enough") so instead of staying with their local parish they leave for a parish they prefer. This could be interpreted as uncharitable, like you hold yourself above the people around you and you want to go be with "more holy" people. Of course, there's no way to know what's in someone's heart when they choose a mass/parish, so we shouldn't paint TLM people with the same brush.
My favorite example of this is Michael Lofton from Reason & Theology, who built a chapel at his home and has a Byzantine priest come once a month rather than attend his local parish.
In my diocese there is an actual parish of the FSP Order and it's listed as a parish in the diocese. They are operating just as any other parish. However we also have a Bishop that is more traditional.
I love my NO mass. It's what I grew up with, and I know Jesus is there. I guess I don't understand the hang ups about the NO. It sounds a little like our prodestant brothers and sisters shopping around for the Church with the best music to me. I'm sure I just don't know the whole story, but I don't think God is more present at the Latin mass than the NO.
A Norvus Ordo Mass can be done well or very poorly. Since the 70s there has been a wide range of variations. Some of the excesses of the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ still has some masses with Liturgical dancers, demanding no bells at consecration, and words of the mass being said like improv. In the 70s there were sometimes clown masses and wizard masses…the priests would dress up to try to make a spiritual point. Many Novus Ordo masses still have the priests who basically push for same sex acceptance without any discussion of Jesus’ words, ‘ Go and sin no more’ Some parishes have only the love gospel and the be nice gospel taught. Some are very good and didactic, promote good t aching and sacrament and so on. But most are quite empty. The parishes that are Latin Mass are full, lots of young families, they do not have improv Mass. it is done as it should and with reverence and usually the priest gives a sermon that actually has a lot more meat than the ‘Jesus wants you to be nice’ sorts of sermons at so many Novus Ordo. I go to a very good Novus Ordo parish daily( when possible) and started going to Latin Mass on Sunday.
The centralized leadership and authority of the Papacy is often characterized as a strength of the Catholic Church, but this is the flip side of the same coin. It is equally a threat to spiritual vigor and faithful expression of our love for Christ when it imposes limits on what was previously celebrated and traditional forms of worship. Say what you will about the perceived chaos of Protestant ecclesiastical organization, but it easily handles this sort of conflict. I empathize with my Catholic brethren on the inner turmoil this must cause for many of them. God forbid when a truly liberal Pope ascends and upends the orthodox positions on issues such as sexuality and self-identity!
Some more staunch English mass Goers have often said so as to refute the growth of Yhe Traditional movement: "Most Traditional Catholics only attend the TLM once a month" Which would be a fair argument if it were not the case that in many places its nearly impossible to find a traditional latin mass be offered more than once a month within the diocese. I drive 40 minutes to reach my Parish for weekly mass and many in our parish drive even longer. We have 1400 parishioners .
I've never been able to attend a latin mass in my whole life. Only in recent years I came back to the Catholic Church, and the only parish in my city (Santiago, a 7 million people city), was banned from celebrating the tridentine liturgy (Una Voce was the organization that took care to preserve it here). I find this baffling.
Brian made an interesting comment in this video: "I never could have imagined that I would have direct contact with a decision made by the Bishop of Rome." I couldn't help but ask myself: why not? If you are Catholic, and you believe in papal supremacy and all entailed, why wouldn't you expect something like this to happen? I'm not trying to be combative in any way, but it breaks my heart to see Catholics who love their faith be at the mercy of an autocrat who has no connection to tradition. You will not find this degree of papal control anywhere in the early church. It does not exist.
Well what he’s saying is that the flourishing and devout community he and his family belong to were negatively affected by the Pope’s decision, which, at the end of the day, doesn’t make any sense. The Popes historically, including the last 2, Benedict and John Paul II, were VERY supportive of the Latin Mass, and don’t get me started on what Pius X did for reverence and tradition in the Church. So, your argument against Papal supremacy is pretty backwards. A bad Pope, or a Pope with bad actions doesn’t refute Papal Primacy or Papal supremacy, because Catholics don’t believe the Pope is the head of the Church, that’s heresy.
@@CatholicsForTrump Thanks for the reply, but I wasn't per se making an argument against papal supremacy (even though I'm strongly against it). I'm simply commenting on the fact that it's odd for someone like Brian to be offended by a far away bishop meddling in the spiritual life of his local community when that's definitionally part of the papacy, which he also endorses.
@@StoneRobbins "when that's definitionally part of the papacy" It's not really. The Catholic Church has bishops, and it has parish priests who act as parish administrators and pastors. Subsidiarity is also a part of the Catholic tradition. TC and the subsequent Roche "clarification" went against the principle of subsidiarity, going as far as directing what parishes could put into their bulletins. It is an unprecedent level of intervention that the Vatican has not engaged in to this extant. Does the Pope have the juridical authority to do this? Yes. Is it wise for him to do this? I don't think so. But that is a distinction that you are missing (authority vs. prudence), and I think what Brian was getting at with his comment.
@@Desert-Father "Does the Pope have the juridical authority to do this? Yes." So you admit then, that the pope does have the authority to directly intervene in the parish life at the local level. Just out of curiosity, could the pope theoretically restrict other rites, like the Byzantine rite as well?
@@StoneRobbins Yes, the Pope has the authority to intervene in parish life and direct how liturgies function. I would just question the prudence and wisdom of how it is being done in this situation. As for the restriction of other rites, even Eastern Rites, yes ultimately the Pope has the authority to regulate liturgical functions. Pastor Aeternus is quite clear in this area: "Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world." Again, I would consider such an intervention into Eastern Rites to be unwise and imprudent, but I cannot deny that the Pope has the authority to regulate the liturgy of every Rite.
I think it is significant that these two major podcasters are finally onboard with acknowledging major concerns with Pope Francis. I can’t figure out why Trent Horn is the big holdout. He seems to be the poster boy for “hear no evil, see no evil.”
Concerns aside, he’s still the Pope. I wish the TLM wasn’t being restricted as well, but there’s probably a reason for it. There are people who won’t attend the Novus Ordo if they can’t get to the TLM, which is mortal sin. This clip references the Mass of the Ages documentary, which featured people like that. We do not need to be promoting those people. We need to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt and pray for him and not assume what his intentions are. If Holdsworth didn’t state he assumes as much, I think he came pretty close to it. I think people who attend a certain liturgy and dislike other liturgies should ask themselves, “Would my faith be ok if I didn’t have this liturgy and had to attend a different one?” Because if it wouldn’t, I don’t even know if that’s the Church’s problem. That might be that person’s problem. The liturgy is supposed to point to the truth. Whatever direction the priest faces, that part of the Mass is a symbol. I may prefer it a certain way, but in a sense it doesn’t matter which way he’s turned. Because what isn’t a symbol is the Eucharist. What isn’t a symbol is the whole of Heaven being present. What isn’t a symbol is what actually happens at every Mass, no matter what liturgy it is. If you leave the Church or ignore her based on your personal preference, that’s really just another form of Protestantism.
It's because his livelihood depends on being paid-off by jews (satanists). If you want a glimpse into how the jews buy people out, read Matin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" wherein he admits that jews paid him off to ignite the Protestant Reformation, then bemoans them for not paying him still after the fact.
@@rafiki1017 I don't really have much of a problem with the Novus Ordo. I do attend my local parish and that is NO. If it is done well, and most of the time it is in my parish, I don't have an issue with it. However, not too far away is a church that does the Latin Mass. I sometimes attend there and to me it is obvious that this liturgy is far superior to NO. Apart from that, it _is_ the tradition of the Church, dating back to the Council of Trent in the 1500's and that too just codified standing practice going back right to antiquity, or at the very least the early Middle Ages. The NO is obviously a very different thing and it is a novelty, invented in the 1970's. Trying to rewrite history and to pretend that the Church started at Vatican II is a lie, plain and simple. For some reason there is in the leadership of the Church a hatret against the Latin Mass. I want to understand where that comes from. What is it that they find so objectionable? I don't see it. Up until now, no one has anwered that question to me. Why does Pope Francis try to stamp it out? I can assume that he must have _some_ reason and leave it at that, but that is not very satisfactory. The question remains. And it does strike me as cynical and unnecessarily offensive to call a document "Traditionis custodis" when that document tries to destroy the tradition. I think the Papacy is one of the best features of the Catholic Church, but this Pope does make it very difficult to me to just assume he has good reasons for what he's doing. At least with Pope Benedict one knew that when he said something, he had thought about it and that he had good reasons. With Pope Francis you never know whether there is a reason, or it is just sloppiness, or it is him trying to be woke or something, or it is just some thoughtless remark or it is bad intent. I really do try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he does make it hard. Very hard. As far as I'm concerned, the NO doesn't have to be abolished. Yes, there are some excesses (in my experience far less than there used to be) and those should be fought. Also I would prefer much stricter rules about what music is allowed. Now it seems to be that almost anything goes. But that is tweaking. But I really don't understand what's the problem with the Latin Mass. As far as I'm concerned, tthe two can coexist peacefully. I think that would be far better. And I think that the Vatican can put it's energy to better use than fighting it's own tradition. There is work enough to do for the Church in the world of today.
I would highly recommend you attend a Latin Mass, whether TLM or Norvus Ordo. Yes, celebrating the Eucharist is the important thing, but celebrating it in a beautiful way helps elevate your worship. My kids love the TLM and Latin Norvus Ordo, they can't stand a badly done Norvus Ordo.
Maybe I can help. The idea of papal infallibility only applies to a certain kind of pronouncement regarding the faith. It has only been invoked a few times in Church history. It’s not even really about the pope; it’s about the Holy Spirit protecting and guiding the Church. Unfortunately, the Church is staffed by a bunch of people. Like the apostles, they are capable of all sorts of error in the absence of the Holy Spirit’s guidance. The wonder if it all, though, is that the Church endures and retains the Faith despite the people in it. That’s where I see the Holy Spirit working.
@@steelmongoose4956thanks for the helpful explanation. As a charismatic who believes in prophecy, I, too, believe the Holy Spirit works through people in the church, albeit they are fallible and won’t always get it right. So I find that that is a similarity between how you view ex cathedra and how I view prophecy.
@@steelmongoose4956I think some Protestants def have some stereotypes of what Catholics believe. And one of them is that the pope is this person who does nothing wrong.
I went to both of the churches he's talking about before, as a visitor. I appreciated both a lot. The priest was very nice. Anyone who's catholic in Edmonton Alberta should go see the Latin mass here, it's good.
As a Protestant the number 1 reason I cannot accept RCC is their blind allegiance to the authority of a sinful man. I agree as Protestants we can do the same thing with our obsession with celebrity pastors. It’s probably just rooted in sinful nature to exalt particular sinners among us. For that we should be ashamed. But RCC writes it into their confession and have divided the church by making it a test of true faith. Francis once again proves that having a magisterium does not protect the body of Christ from heresy or a tyrant.
Lord have mercy, such a difficult time for the Church, we must pray for unity, for the graces we need.
Last Sunday I was in Denver and attended the Latin mass at the Cathedral Basilica of the Immaculate Conception. The mass was at 6:30 pm and it was a beautiful and reverent service. There were many people of all ages and I could tell that they really loved their church. We all participated in singing and there was Benediction. Next time I'm in Denver I will go to mass.
I have been to this Mass - it is actually a Novus Ordo all in latin and ad orientum. Provides a good comparison of each form. It is still very beautiful and should be more of a norm, but does not quite hold up to the theocentricity of the TLM in my view.
Deo Gratias
In Canada, feeling betrayed by the Pope also comes from when he came here to apologize for a genocide that never happened. The reports of mass graves of Native children at residential schools run by the Church were a complete lie. As Catholics, we now have no credibility here to fight against great injustices such as abortion, euthanasia, rainbow, gender conversion, etc. Why did the Pope throw us under the bus?
Yes, I also feel betrayed because the Tridentine mass I was attending has been moved all over the place. We had a growing community and now it gets randomly moved to different locations and at weird times. We are frustrated because we used to do a lot of community service to the poor and mentally ill where we were. People accuse traditionalists of caring more for liturgy than people but that is not true. Our liturgy fed us and then we had the Spirit to move within needed populations and do His work.
TLM was instrumental in my conversion to Catholicism. When a former Protestant learns the importance of Church history and tradition, that is what they need and want. Peter, feed your sheep.
In France, Novus Ordo masses are empty while Trad. Latin Masses are often full and have been growing really fast with younger people the past few years.
At the same time, the current Pope goes on a war with TLM, how odd uh ?
@@eabm1984no reasoning given, or proofs to negate what is stated. You must be a Karen.
@@eabm1984 "anyone who disagrees with me is a schismatic"
@@eabm1984 No the comment is spot you pathetic liberal
SSPX-Derangement Syndrome. The struggle is real. Seek professional help.
@@brandywineblueThe Pope is a heretic and not even Catholic.
He's always crapping all over traditional Catholics. Seriously, what will it take for you to understand that Pope Francis is an anti-Pope? Will it be when he finally endorses and allows gay marriage?
What Brian says about what has happened to him in Canada is, quite literally, what happened to my diocesan TLM last fall here in DC. "The Pope broke up your community." And yes, it is a bitter pill to swallow.
And Bergoglio will stand in account before Christ for the damage he has done
@@sergesavard636Amen.
@@sergesavard636He certainly will
I'm sorry that happened to you all.
@@sergesavard636 Unlikely. The fact that you call him "Bergoglio" is why you face what you do. Instead of merely enjoying the extraordinary form of the Mass with all of its beauty, you and your crew used it as a power base from which to attack the rest of the church, to claim we were going to invalid masses, and posting exaggerated social media posts about "clown masses."
If you had simply left the rest of the church alone instead of provoking dissension, you would not now be facing this.
Francis did not author Traditiones Custodes - YOU DID.
Latn mass should be allowed I think every parish should have an option to attend a latin mass over the weekend. Let them choose both masses are valid and should be accepted.
This is a first world problem in big cities in America there just aren’t that many Latin trained priest in the church there is a priest shortage period and outside of the United States some areas wait weeks for a priest. It’s not feasible for every church in America to have both masses there aren’t that many priest who can do both and nor is the demand once that kind of availability is done the Latin mass is full because of supply and demand and yes I support the Latin mass being available for those that like it but we have other priorities as a worldwide church than to cater to a niche community and to make it mandatory for every church.
@@lilwaynesworld0You are describing a symptom, not a cause.
Dung.....
Time has come to root out the masonic wipers nest at present day satanic Rome. Klaus Schwab/Soros/gates satanic sustainable wealth is maintaining the GALLEN MAFIA. Matt, voris, etc., are no match for SANHEDRIN satanists. About other Zionist shalom mercenaries so called latin mass ilk less said the better. Repent sincerely like Queen Esther of old did.DISCUSSION days over bishops,cardinals, etc are over. Most of them are de facto masons
hence their deafening silence on the face of diabolical APOSTASY worldover. Homo/lesbian infested hierarchy. Mother Mary had warned countless times worldover at Quito, Ecuador, etc. Wake up so called latin mass ZOMBIES
P.s. ......masonic VIPERS.....
@@AlejandroAB Actually only those who are fed a lie that the Latin Mass is taking over by certain You Tubers would come to your conclusion. There are 25000 Diocean Priest in the United States in the Norvos Ordo and 1000 Latin mass Priests you are asking for 25000 Priests to drop everything and be trained the in the Latin Mass when we are have a priest shortage overall in the United States its just not feasible.
Our latest Bishop served at a Latin Mass here in Auckland NZ. We were actually surprised, as our previous Bishop would never have done that.
Really??? WOW! I moved out of there recently. Things kept going crazier and crazier and the last straw was the letter instructing Catholic schools about LGBT last year.
I can't believe what you're saying!! I'm happy for you!
@@GustavoAndresHerrera I remember that letter, I take everything with a grain of salt as the Bishop I mentioned above had signed the very document you are referring to. Whatever happens, now is the time to stand firm in the truth no matter the ridicule or persecution that comes with it.
@@LauFiu there are good places still in Auckland, Te Atatu for TLM, St Thomas More has a great priest and a good Novus Ordo Mass..... But, unfortunately... From the Bishops there isn't much positive to say :(
It is frustrating that the fate of entire communities hangs on the whims of whoever is in office at the time.
@@Desert-Father I prefer to remember the promise of Jesus Christ: "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".
We're in the hands of the Holy Spirit.
That said... I moved countries to take my family away from those leaders (trusting the Holy Spirit doesn't excuse us from our own responsibility).
God bless....
Sadly this is not happening only to TLM parishes but also to faithful conservative Catholics attending the Novus Ordo Mass. I have first hand experience of such Catholics being silenced, banned, slandered and marginalized by the pastor and Vicar General of our diocese. It is incomprehensible as to why this is happening to devout Catholic families by church clergy. God have mercy on them.
Because they are silent and disunited, are afraid to defend their Faith. It's simple that.
Even St. Peter was rebuked by St. Paul. It doesn't make St. Peter less of a leader of the church. It only means that he's human and I hope good will come out of this since God works in mysterious ways. We have had worse but God delivered us from such leaders. Let us trust in the Holy Spirit.
Paul didn’t accuse Peter of teaching heresy. That is literally a Protestant talking point.
Paul rebuked Cephas, not Peter.
Peter was a title name rather than a real name (his real name is Simon). In Greek, the title names will always be translated. As cephas became Πέτρος (Petros/Peter), the messiah became Χριστός (Khristós/Christ).
The original name is never translated just transliterated.
The Cephas referred to by Paul as written in Greek is clearly not saint Peter (for Peter is a title) but a person's real name.
Paul is consistently when writing the name Peter (Saint Peter, the first Pope) remains Petros (Peter) not Cephas. They're two different personal.
@@dickymartinus1753 Cephas is the Latin word for Peter. St Cephas in Latin is St Peter in English. You should not use the word “clearly”, especially if you start with denying that Cephas is not Peter when they are the same thing. The only thing clear is there are people that would disagree with you. “The Cephas referred to by Paul as written in Greek…” maybe Im misunderstanding you, but Cephas is Latin, not Greek. Kephas is Greek.
There may have been another Cephas, but Peter is also Cephas in Latin.
@@paulmualdeave5063 Cephas is transliteration of Kepha Aramaic, translate to Petrus in Latin, Petros in Greek.
Jesus' original language is Aramaic. The new testament was written in Greek, so the title name must be translated. Peter is a title name, Simon is a real name. Simon (real name) does not need to be translated, but his title name (Cephas - Kepha Aramaic) must be translated into Petros (Greek).
I'm new to Catholicism and going through RCIA and the impression i have of Pope Francis is He is not the Pope we need, not the Pope we want, but the Pope we have.
I'm still learning.
Our RCIA program was useless. Never opened a Bible or Baltimore Catechism. They just talked about feelings. For the sake of our souls, we moved to a parish where the traditional priest said the NO ad orientem as well as the TLM. He also gave instructive homilies on the Catholic faith, instead of ones torn from the NY Times op ed page. May God bless and protect him always, and you as well
That's pretty much spot on. He's a terrible Pope. Pretty much a heretic. He's definitely not Catholic since he's getting involved in left wing talking points.
He is the Pope that God has given us and we must obey, just like St.Paul submitted to St.Peter, we must do the same even if we do not know what the Lord is doing through him.
This pope makes me question if the Catholic Church is the Lords church. I was raised a Mormon but left over 10 years ago. I have seen little difference between Protestant faiths and Mormonism claim to be the ones to interpret the scriptures correct… they have differences but all make that claim. Then you have this Pope who gives me the impression he is no different than the founder of every Protestant faith. He seems like a wolf in sheep clothing. I have no idea where God is calling me.
@@TheBirdierougewhy does he seem to be a wolf in sheep’s clothing? What has he said that goes against the faith ? In the context of the history of the papacy, Pope Francis is one of the most Christlike in his behaviour and his teaching.
Blessed to have not one, but two Latin Mass Churches in Lyon (France) city center, FSSP and the one I attend run by diocesan Priests. Both Churches absolutely thriving and left in peace by the good Bishop. Very hard to say this, but I think a lot of people are simply waiting to see what the next Papal election brings, God help us.
Where is that? I'm based in Lyon, I only know of St. Georges. I personally attend byzantine mass at St. Irénée.
@@jonaszswietomierz8017 Greetings, yes St George's on the banks of the Saone, and up the hill nearby in St Just there's a big old Baroque style Church run by the FSSP.
@@johnharkness6304I think I've seen it while walking down from Notre-Dame, but it was closed (not sunday)
@@jonaszswietomierz8017 That's probably it, huge old facade that could do with some renovating 👍🏻
careful what you wish for, Fr James Martin could become a bishop soon, then become Pope!
Brian is expressing a lot the pain and anguish that Latin mass families have felt these two years. All because some people half a world away has a false assumption about what you and your loved ones think.
Yeah I mean this entire comment section proves how much we need Pope Francis and specifically Custodians of Tradition.
It has become clear extraordinary forms of the mass being common on the parish level is creating disunity in the Church and confusion about what is actually the ordinary form of how we should celebrate. There is one form of the mass the Latin rite of Christ's Church should ordinarily celebrate: the ordinary form. That is the form Christ asks the Latin Rite of His Church to celebrate ordinarily. The ordinary form is the traditional Latin mass. It is the continuation of the tradition of the liturgy in the Latin rite. Extra ordinary forms which are permitted but don't have the distinction of being the ordinary form, should not be confused for what we should be celebrating ordinarily at the parish level. Now if you want to visit one of the many different extra ordinary forms at a monastery or one of the other non parish places that offer it, go ahead and enjoy! But you have a responsibility to attend your local parish and the liturgy your parish should celebrating is the ordinary form of the rite you belong to. For us in the Latin rite, it's the ordinary form. The same sort of crackdown on liturgies was done at Trent and people complained then. Just imagine if Pope Francis allowed this to continue. You have people in this very comment section calling themselves "Latin mass families" as distinct from Catholic families. These are families who are ignoring their responsibility to their local parish to drive to somewhere 45 minutes away. And you have a responsibility to your local parish. The Catechism says the parish community (that's you, you who live in the borders of your parish) have a responsibility for the education and integration of confirmands into the parish community. You are not traditional by ignoring this responsibility, you are very modern. This is a very recent modern idea that you don't have a responsibility to your local parish. Not to mention you miss out on the special graces the pastor of your local parish is given to guide specifically you in the faith.
God bless Pope Francis! Keep up the great work!
@@mikethemonsta15 well said, I have to admit such fatigue with all of this. The Latin Mass was not supposed to be said after V2 and was done as a concession to people who wanted to leave the Church over it - talk about pride over faith and submission to the authority of the Church. It's the same thing to this day. Maybe it was a mistake to concede this, as now all we see is division in our one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.
@@mikethemonsta15 "The ordinary form is the traditional Latin mass. It is the continuation of the tradition of the liturgy in the Latin rite" No it isnt and never will be...It is obstinate liberals like you who will not accept the fact the galactic failure of the Church since V2 and NO.. You know why I wont go to my local parish, rainbow flags, gay priests, financial corruption .. should I go on???
@@mikethemonsta15 You dropped charity down the drainage
@@mikethemonsta15 There are many rites in the catholic church, mind you.
As a non -Catholic I feel huge sympathy for the RC's predicament here with this Pope. Praying for you guys and unity in Christendom one day.
God bless you, brother in Christ.
Thank you!
we love Pope Francis. He is the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Some seed fell on the ground. Some seeds were trampled under foot and eaten by birds. Some fell on rocky soil and grew quickly, but died when the hot sun scorched the earth. Still others fell onto the deep soil of obedience, put down roots and produced fruit. David did not kill the anointed King Saul in the cave. And Saul was far worse than the anointed Pope Francis.
@@megrose711 And he hates faithful Catholics
I have went to one TLM...was beautiful. Wish it was more accessible
The FSSPX (Sometimes it's called SSPX) has many parishes and they celebrate the TLM. Maybe search for one of those?
The FSSP also has quite a few parishes that celebrate TLM
Same here, our NO around town are barely scraping by, while the TLM's are THRIVING. As of Nov 1st we are down to only ONE "Shrine" that allows TLM. Feel so sad for the Priests who have dedicated their whole Priesthood to the TLM for 30 years - now are out......Does that make any sense to anyone.
They should disobey and continue offering the TLM. The restrictions are evil, and as evil they should be opposed. May the chips fall where they may.
For context: our diocese has a 115 parishes, only one of which is FSSP. Sure, it is well attended - and also less than 1% of who shows up on a Sunday. You have this illusion of yourselves as a much larger portion of the church than is likely the case, at least by the numbers.
@@admiralbob77 what is the median age in the FSSP parish vs other parishes? What's the median number of children per family?
@@admiralbob77 There are 2 million nominally Catholics in Chicago. There are three TLM parishes, counting the FSSPX priory. There were more, but Cupich hates thriving parishes. We certainly make less than 1% of all Catholics here. But go to any other parish and you'll be lucky to find more than ten young people at their Sunday Mass. You'll also struggle to find more than one baby in the entire church (if any at all), or a family with more than two children. Young men (who are the ones who become priests) will be practically non-existent. The median age will be above 60, and most people in attendance will be old women. The parish will be run by an old priest who is also in charge of one or two more churches.
Go to any of the TLM parishes and you'll find plenty of young people, from adolescents to young men. There are also plenty of young and large families; some of them will even have six, seven or eight children. There will be many priests, most in their thirties or forties, and they'll have plenty of vocations.
Now tell me, which ones would you say that are thriving? Which ones have a future? FSSP, ICKSP and SSPX seminaries have a long wait list because they don't have the resources to accept all the young men who want to join them. Meanwhile, diocesan seminaries are desperate for more vocations. Wake up and smell the incense. The future of the Church is traditional.
@@cfban Largely irrelevant since FSSP attendees are vastly smaller in number. And again, I'd expect a Companions parish demographics compares favourably.
I went from going to the TLM on rare occasions, to exclusively attending the TLM thanks to Traditionis Custodes and the restrictions in my Archdiocese. Thank you, Pope Francis, for awakening in me devotion for the Mass of the Ages.
Same here! When he started persecuting it I thought ok this must be legit given his track record.
My family has been at the TLM for 13 years. Since Covid and TC, we have grown exponentially. We were never empty before but now, not getting to Mass early could cause you to struggle finding enough room for your family. It’s beautiful to see the church so full.
That's my church! It's great
It was being forced to wear a mask and receive communion in the hand during covid in later part of 2020 that sparked curiosity about what the big deal was about the TLM. Been going for 3 years now. The only new mass I have been to since then, was two funerals.
Pope Francis is a great grace because he has given us all clarity. Previously we were all in denial, trying to convince ourselves that something good might one day come out of Vatican 2.
As an Orthodox who's never been Catholic, I find the war on the TLM tragic. I remember going to a Novus Ordo and being so disappointed; it felt Presbyterian-lite. Then I went to a TLM and thought "this is what I want Catholic celebration to be like."
And it's not the Latin itself, at least for me; as beautiful as it is, I prefer when I can understand what I hear. It was that it treated the mass seriously and with the traditional elements: the incense, the reverence, the head coverings, the priest facing away from the people.
The Novus Ordo is supposed to be more accessible for non-Catholics, but what about the Catholic faithful? And frankly, the mass is supposed to be an ascent to heaven: for the non-Catholics who want that, why would they be more attracted to a less beautiful, less reverant ascent?
From the outside, the war on the TLM looks like a war on traditionalists in Catholicism, a proxy target to either grind them down or force them out. Why? To what end? It is sad to watch.
Nothing you mentioned, even Latin, is exclusive to the TLM. The NO Mass can be and is celebrated with incense, chant, ad orientem...
And reverence is not automatic in the TLM either. You can read the saints in the 1700s admonishing priests for their irreverence and rushed 10 minute Masses. I attend both forms of the Mass as well as Byzantine divine liturgies for the record.
" Then I went to a TLM and thought "this is what I want Catholic celebration to be like.""
But it's not about what we want or aesthetic preferences.
@maolsheachlannoceallaigh4772 You're right; it's not about aesthetics or preferences. Even if a local heretical church serves a more beautiful, reverent service, I should go to the parish in right communion. But ideally, the ones in right communion should be beautiful, reverent, awe-inspiring. The liturgy is an ascent to heaven; it should feel that way.
@@billcynic1815 „The liturgy is an ascent to heaven…“ This is what NOM wants to oppose. Heaven is here, not somewhere above the clouds.
Sadly TLM has been politicised, and in my humble opinion “Traditionis Custodes” has intensified this.
What TLM stand for? 🤔
@@TorchLighter Traditional Latin Mass.
Saying it intensified the problem is an understatement. It made it explode exponentially. What was once confined to a few internet trolls has now turned into fury (with good reason) in young families of devout faithful everywhere. The Pope singlehandedly increased the likelihood of schism in the Church by orders of magnitude. What the liturgical reform started is now being consolidated by Pope Francis. When future generations read about the Second Great Western Schism, they will see Traditionis Custodes as one of the pivotal points.
It’s only become political when the Pope showed this weird kind of antagonism towards TLM
@@gentlemanbronco3246it was political before, but I think also relatively unknown to most Catholics. It was never discussed so dissidents abandoned the entire RCC before they'd discover that the older rite might be a far better fit for them personally. Maybe I am projecting but that's the path I went down. Cradle Catholic, struggled with faith and went to a cathedral in college (nearest to my dorm and the campus shuttle bus route). I never knew that there was still a TLM or how it differed as it was never discussed. I mostly fell away and became a cafeteria Catholic. I didn't really return to the Church until a few deaths in the family. Now I'm struggling again but found the alternative. The TLM seems like the best and only way through the darkness.
The biggest aspect is that the TLM is it seems to form masculine men, feminine women, and actually attracts younger people without trying to water down the faith. IE this is what the rules are and about 1990 years of history, philosophy, theology, and catechism examining why.
The novus ordo is more like teaching to the test: getting them to pass each test is given a far higher priority than actually learning how and why.
The TLM was instrumental in my joining the church. It sounds cringe, but I really feel like my life can be divided into the time before I attended the TLM and the time after. It changed everything for me. The way I saw my family, my community, my place in the world, I called my parish that Monday and signed up for RCIA and never looked back. I suspect not a lot of people have had a similar experience at a typical NO.
The people want and need a challenge, an escape from the world, something that feels so different and apart from the everyday. Life is too easy, too mundane, we get into routine so fast. I never feel that with the TLM, maybe in 50+ years if lord willing I have them, but every Sunday is a new experience and a new chance to grow in the faith and try to just get that fraction closer to understanding everything the church has to offer after 2,000 years.
Not cringe at all. It was very similar for me.
I feel the exact same way as you...before TLM/after TLM. My husband and I grew up going to the NO but found the TLM during the COVID lockdown and haven't looked back!
It is very cringe. You should focus on your relationship with God, not on “TLM” or other youtube-induced obsessions.
The old generations are ignorant and stubborn, they cling to the NO thinking it to be the future, thankfully many seminarians have affinity for TLM. The church will improve, we just need patience.
big respect to Brian for being diplomatic. The frustration I would feel would definitely contaminate the way I would speak about this, but Brian is quite calm about it.
Brian comes across like a passive aggressive killjoy who feeds off of drama.
In Australia, we had only one priest travelling across 5 states since 2017 giving the only traditional Latin mass available. I had lunch with the family in our city who were able to reach out, and this man of god travelled interstate from Melbourne to Queensland to do TLM originally to only 9 people in somebody’s home. He would do a morning mass in Brisbane, hope on a plane and do the evening mass in Melbourne. My family joined only recently and currently they hire a scouts hall out once a month in Brisbane and thankfully there are now two priests who swap out months but are still servicing 5 different areas across Australia. We have so many churches, cathedrals in Brisbane, beautiful ones. And this mass will not be listed on the Archdiocese of Brisbane and no church allows even once a month for the mass to be done at any time in their church. I’m new to Catholicism but let it be known, I would not be catholic if we hadn’t found Traditional Latin Mass. it’s the only mass or church service I’ve been to which felt correct for me. And yet there is no support available. They have to attempt to go fund me for the hope to one day buy their own humble church. I pray to Our Lady that she may intercede and through our Lord Jesus Christ somehow, someday our priests could come on a podcast like this and share their incredible story. Of what is their motivation to do this and receive nothing back from the world and nothing back even from the Holy Catholic Church? Their motives are the most pure I’ve seen in their commitment to serving God and preserving the mass of the ages which was practiced for almost 2000 years and is now shunned by the Catholic Hierarchy as if it were a Black Mass. The fruit of their work is undeniably Good and I know through Christ Our Lord one day Mary Help of Christians in Australia will have a church in every state. For the first time in my whole life I went to worship hungry as I always have but with one difference this time, I left full.
If for some reason you read this far thank you I don’t know what made me type all of this out right now but please pray for us if you feel to.
God bless you guys, and welcome home! So sorry that it's a home filled with unrest at this time, but we're praying for the peace of Our Lord to fill it and eventually open the eyes of the leadership. I keep thinking that the situation of TLMers now has its roots in the early Christians worshipping in the catacombs under the dead of night. God sustained His people then, and He will continue to sustain us through this persecution from within. I will pray that He will send you more priests and a parish of your own. There are more young seminarians here who want to celebrate the Latin Mass than the Vatican would like you to think, and I'm in the Pacific NW of the US which is infamous for being unchurched! Latin Mass families also tend to have 5-8 children and many vocations. So please keep the faith and I know God will send you more servants for the vineyard.
@@radmomthoughts3507 Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I don't even know how we got here, well I do, intercession of Our Lady and prayer. Now to find ourselves at the ground point of what I believe will be waves of children of God returning home is a true blessing. Thank you for your prayers and kind words, God bless you and your family!
The SSPX is in most US cities. Until recently many traditional catholics thought the SSPX was too radical. Then they had their Latin Mass community taken from them.
Yep. That's me. I love my parish, but I would go to SSPX if/when the TLM is taken from us. Merely a couple of years ago that would've been unthinkable for me.
You should avoid the SSPX at all costs, not just because of its lack of communion with the church, but because it’s a very cultish environment. PwA has a great episode with John Salza on the SSPX.
@@andym5995 the SSPX is in communion with the Church. Sure, its situation is "canonically irregular", but that's a huge difference from not being in communion with the Church. Learn about its founding and why there was a falling off between the Church and Abp. Lefebvre. It's not as black and white as you might think.
As for the supposedly cultish atmosphere, I don't have any personal experience to speak about. But I'd rather have a less than ideal atmosphere than lose the Traditional Latin Mass. Besides, it's hard to blame them for being skeptical about the situation in the Church at large, given everything that has transpired since Va II and with the current Pope.
@@cfban If you operate against the wishes of every bishop in the world and set up rival altars to the legitimate ones, and offer illicit masses daily, you are in no way, shape, or form “in communion.” And you are right, the history is pretty clear- the popes were exceedingly patient and generous with Lefebvre and he spat on their offers. What if you were pope and a bishop very publicly disrespected and disobeyed you for almost 20 years, and yet they were still going to give him a bishop after all that?
I do have personal experience. Lots of it. It is a cult and you should stay far away. A nice liturgy is not worth it. All the smells and bells mean nothing if your community lacks Christian charity.
@@andym5995 I'm sorry, but it is not a matter of opinion. SSPX is communion with the Church. Pope Francis of all people recognizes that. He himself has recognized their faculty to offer the sacraments. They're in communion and that's not something that we can argue about.
And if the TLM is just "a nice Liturgy", then maybe it should disappear. Who really cares? The New Mass can be a "nice Liturgy" as well, if celebrated properly. It can even be in Latin!
No, the TLM is not just a "nice Liturgy". That's just Liturgical illiteracy. This is the point where people who do not see the evil of the restrictions (or worse, the people who applaud them) miss the mark. The Mass that the Church developed under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through the generations to honor and worship God, the Church's biggest treasure, the legacy of the Saints, the pinnacle and center of Christian civilization, is not just "nice". It is the closest that Earth can ever get to Heaven until Our Lord comes again. And that, my friend, is worth anything, up to, including and surpassing, having some mean people in the community.
I am confident, that God has a plan for the catholic church. We don't see it or understand it.
But it's clear that the demons own our society and culture. The first time, since ages.
But there is still god, our catholic church and we with Jesus
Every time I hear a Church close it's saddening. All churches start small then grow. Then as a large Church it's sold which is pretty stupid. Large Churches that are in financial struggles need to get small again. Sell lands, sell buildings but don't remove the Eucharist from that community.
I went to Adoration & as I was leaving I was approached by the local parish priest and asked why I was praying in Latin. Firstly, I was alone in there and whispering or speaking in very low tones. My response was I try to pray as my patron saint would have prayed, when possible. Walk in their footsteps, right?
He told me that people who might come for Adoration might be made uncomfortable if they heard me pray in Latin. So how I pray should be determined by someone who may or may not show up and who may or may not feel uncomfortable?
I converted & was baptized three years ago. If nothing else, it has certainly been interesting.
Latin is a very beautiful language and a key part of the western historical heritage, and it should be preserved and spoken. But God probably doesn’t care what language you pray to him in.
@@stevenjames6830 Exactly right. So if God doesn't care, why should someone else, a priest, no less?
I'm glad I didn't suggest that to be the case. It'll cut back on but not eliminate the people who show up to infer I did. That's just the internet. Say anything & someone will anoint themselves to "correct" you. Its doubly hilarious when they misfire in their haste, isn't it?
Maybe I'm off base, but if I saw or heard someone devoting time to God & trying to be closer to Him, it would seem wrong of me to try to steer them away from that.
I have no Latin Mass local to me but the parish I do attend is almost like a hybrid. There is a lot of Latin incorporated into the Mass
That’s what the Mass was intended to be after Vatican II: the ordinaries prayed in Latin and the propers in the vernacular (so we can understand it). Mine also does a reverent Novus Ordo 😊
After all that effort to incorporate Latin to the NO, why not just say the actual Latin Mass? The two liturgies differ in more than language
I was at such a mass this passed weekend on Saturday and Sunday. It was fantastic.
@peteb6805 so you proved my point, actually. Latin is the easy part, they're halfway there. The rubrics aren't much more to learn. So again, why not just learn it and offer it? What is the hang up?
@peteb6805 No, I didn't contradict myself. Again, you simply proved that everyone who insists "Latin is too hard, nobody can understand it" is wrong, and it CAN be learned easily. That is always the excuse given that we can't have the Latin Mass that has been the Catholic liturgy for 1500+ years
I attend one of two Diocesan TLMs in Austin. After 3 1/2 years of attending these after 55+ years of the Novus Ordo Mass, I feel robbed of my heritage as a Catholic. My opinion, although others who I break fast with after the 7:30 am Mass feel the same.
Couldn't agree with you more. I was beyond shocked to discover that TLM existed on Dec 2019 right before COVID. Eventually, I went to my first TLM during COVID and gradually moved to it. The best example to describe not knowing about TLM throughout my life is like some deep dark family secret that's not supposed to be talked about and nobody knew. Several TLMs in DFW and a couple in RGV. In Austin, is it St. Mary's Cathedral and St. Martin de Porres in Dripping Springs? Any others? Thank you!
@@BellaJones2010l believe the SSPX has a Mass on the 2nd and 4th Sundays of the month on downtown Austin bt St. Edward's campus in a hotel.
I understand your frustration; however the SSPX are not in full communion with the Church. They exercise no legitimate authority since they have not received a mission through Her authority structure. When they set up churches (note these are called "chapels" because they are outside the ecclesiastical structure of the Church) and celebrate mass, they do so without the express permission of their Bishops and therefore illicitly. This is a grave problem that is destructive to the Church's unity (I have experienced this quite painfully in my own family). I am also in the Diocese of Austin and can verify that our Bishop, Joe Vasquez has confirmed (in response to my inquiry), that SSPX masses are illicit and do not fulfill the Sunday obligation of Catholics. So as a fellow Catholic I would strongly recommend that you stay away from that group.@@josephwagner3224
You were robbed. I was robbed too. I've been attending the TLM for almost two years after 28 years of Novus Ordo.
I baptized my son in the traditional Latin rite, and I feel robbed there as well. My father was baptized in the traditional form. So was my grandfather, and my great grandfather, and my great great grandfather, and so on until my first Visigothic ancestor who converted to Catholicism probably 1500 years ago. I am the only one in my lineage who was not baptized in the traditional Latin rite. I absolutely feel robbed.
@@cfban Oh my, that's deep. I knew I was traditionally baptized in the old rite in 1967, but after doing some investigative work, found out this year that I went through the traditional confirmation as well that year. A few years before things went Novus Ordo in or around 1970. I do know that my First Confession and Communion was Novus Ordo in 1974. I have a faint memory of going to my mom to mass, but not sure if it was prior to 1970 or not. Part of me wants to believe I was there, but I can't confirm. After that, it was Novus Ordo for decades. So happy I was led back by the Holy Ghost. Peace to ya'll!
Rest in the Lord and wait patiently for Him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. Psalm 37:7
We are living in a time where divisions among communities are growing wider and wider, here in the United States, in our Church, and among are own families. There are forces seeking to build disunity within the Catholic Church, and that includes hostility to Pope Francis and Vatican II. I would urge all who feel the currents of internal strife to step back, fall upon your love and charity, and focus on how we are united by the good news of Jesus the Christ. Remember, division is a tool of the Enemy. Let no one be tempted by the sin of denouncing others within the body of Christ, when the solution is for all within the body to talk through disagreements with love and compassion for each other.
why is there division?
it's very clear, but difficult to admit.
Jesus proclaimed that the house of His Father had been defiled and turned into a den of vipers.
we must pray, and we must be an example that speaks against evil, and not hide it.
prayers for the clergy.
@@b.o7815 It is Gods will, through the work of the Holy Spirt, that Pope Francis was elected, as it was that Pope John XXIII convened the Second Vatican Council and Pope Paul VI concluded it with its outcomes of Constitutions, Declarations, and Decrees to help address the Church’s ecumenical efforts to address the modern needs of the faithful.
@@LiliGoof-gh4ch You are correct, the Holy Spirit doesn’t choose the Pope in conclave, but the College of Cardinals in the conclave choose the new Pope while praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Additionally, the Holy Spirit provides guidance to the ecumenical councils, like Vatican II, and does protect the teachings of the councils from error. Bless you!
Thank you for posting this today.
I think what I heard is lots of people joined the church and really love the Latin mass. And then the Pope announced that most of the people who joined for these aren't allowed to have it.
Then they joined the Catholic Church for the wrong reasons. The reason to join the Church is to become united with Christ.
@LiliGoof-gh4ch Look, I empathize with you, I really do. Shortly after I converted, I attended an SSPX Mass for a while without knowing anything about the controversy... until the homilies started to have some angry words for Pope JP2. And then those angry words started to become a routine feature of the Mass. That's horrible. I think there are liturgical abuses from both the leftists and radical traditionalists. I agree that our present Pope is not being as hard on the leftists as he is on the "radtrads", and that makes me very sad. I would like to tone my rhetoric when engaging Catholics who are suffering from the loss of a beautiful Liturgy that honors God by offering Him our best. That said, we can't tolerate any Catholic committing mortal sin through pride, wrath, sloth, envy, or anything else that puts our preferences above the fundamental duty of every Christian, and that is to live the Gospel every single day, no matter the circumstances.
the Latin mass is magical for me...This Pope is simply not lovable -- my love is for the Light of Christ.
I will never understand restricting Latin mass. They are the fastest growing services and it's overwhelmingly younger people.
It's almost to the point where I question if it's an intentionally self defeating policy? I wonder that because conservative traditional Catholics in the USA are driving the movement and Pope Francis called us out for no reason.
It breeds a toxic environment that is spreading so wide that the Vatican is aware of it. Some people think they're too good for the NO and look down on other faithful Catholics to the point they'd rather not go to Mass at all than go to one. What kind of warped ideology is that?
Seriously, all we're trying to do is stay faithful to the perennial teachings and practices of the Church.
I posted this below two other comments here. I just feel like people need to hear it. I tend not to worry about this too much because I know the Church is on the winning side, no matter what. Like Padre Pio said, “Pray, hope, and don’t worry.” And try not to assume what is in other people’s hearts, especially the Pope. God bless.
Concerns aside, he’s still the Pope. I wish the TLM wasn’t being restricted as well, but there’s probably a reason for it. There are people who won’t attend the Novus Ordo if they can’t get to the TLM, which is mortal sin. This clip references the Mass of the Ages documentary, which featured people like that. We do not need to be promoting those people.
We need to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt and pray for him and not assume what his intentions are. If Holdsworth didn’t state he assumes as much, I think he came pretty close to it. I think people who attend a certain liturgy and dislike other liturgies should ask themselves, “Would my faith be ok if I didn’t have this liturgy and had to attend a different one?” Because if it wouldn’t, I don’t even know if that’s the Church’s problem. That might be that person’s problem.
The liturgy is supposed to point to the truth. Whatever direction the priest faces, that part of the Mass is a symbol. I may prefer it a certain way, but in a sense it doesn’t matter which way he’s turned. Because what isn’t a symbol is the Eucharist. What isn’t a symbol is the whole of Heaven being present. What isn’t a symbol is what actually happens at every Mass, no matter what liturgy it is. If you leave the Church or ignore her based on your personal preference, that’s really just another form of Protestantism.
It's political.
Because it's obvious how much TLM people has a tendency to schismatics sentiments and to act like they're holier and better than the "Novus Ordo catholics" just because of the rite. Of course, not all people who attends TLM acts or thinks like that, but it's clear by looking peoples opinion in the internet or by personal experience that it's an issue you can't pretend it doesn't exist.
Furthermore, the Missal of St. Paul VI is the ordinary rite, wich means, it's how the Mass should be prayed today. There's no logic in "expanding" TLM. Can't see why priests who wants to pray the Mass more "TLM" like, just don't aply it to the ordinary missal, unless they think Paul VI's Missal is full of errors, wich is the argument of the SSPX.
I understand why Pope Francis restricted it and how many people reacted to it actually are a testament on how the Pope is right in some of his point. But I wish he acted more energetically to fight liturgical abuses, Desiderio desideravi was a good start but I think it should be followed with more concrete measures.
The good Lord must have His reasons for allowing this Pope to be elected - don't you think? Bishops are getting away with bad things because nobody is standing up to them. They are not untouchable if they are doing the wrong thing. But the question is how?
Maybe having a bad pope is exposing all the bad prelates in the Church that has developed in the rot of the post VII era. Maybe this will force all Catholics to wake up.
This isn’t the Lord’s fault.
Yes, He has good reasons: Punishment. For everything, from the Liturgical reform to the watering down of the Faith to the mass increase in apostasy. We are being punished by the Lord.
@@cfban Punished by removing the beautiful Latin mass even more? Why would Jesus punish us with removing that?
There are only two weapons for us to use. Personal holiness and defunding the institutional Church. Stop giving them money.
The way I see it the Lord is pruning the tree of the dead branches.
What killed the Church in the west anyway is contraception which ushered in all the other sexual sins. The laity refused Christ’s authority and the clerics either agreed with their rebellion or were frightened into silence and became complicit.
Anyone who is in mortal sin can not be fruitful in the Kingdom of God no matter how many Masses they attend.
So people got tired of the conflict between their consciences and their Faith so they just deluded themselves and left.
About 80% of Catholics don’t even attend Mass. of those who do vast percentages of them “dissent” from church teachings which places them in the mortal sin of heresy. Then they go to Communion committing another mortal sin of sacrilege.
So the actual percentage of baptized Catholics in union with Christ is very small. Apparently too small to make any discernible difference. Thus we get shepherds we deserve.
In Sasktoon we have a similar situation to Edmonton with an FSSP apostolate. It's experienced solid growth, despite having mass times that are less than ideal every day of the week except Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. My understanding if that the FSSP does have an exemption from TC which is good, and we are working on getting our own Church and Fr. Lawrence (the North American Provincial superior) is quite adamant that's the plan. It's hard to make arrangements for that though.
I feel the distress that Brian expresses, it’s shameful what Francis has wrought upon the most spiritually active Catholics! I pray for the church and its future!
There's no evidence that you're more "spiritually active" than anyone else. Quite frankly, a Companions of the Cross (charismatic) parish is quite likely up to a lot more than you are or have ever been. The arrogance of this statement is in part why you face this - this constantly professed notion that you are better or truer than the rest of us.
Nice work, Brian. He put that perfectly.
From Ireland. More Trust and Faith in Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament , Adoration, weather Jesus is exposed or not. Thats whats important as Catholics. Not which Mass you attend. As if Jesus is more present in one over another. Pray , fast, help your parish out at local level. Be happy, smile and have confidence in the Holy Spirit to protect Christ's church.🙏☘️
Lets say that Jesus is present in holy Ucarist in n.o. mass (witch I hope is not), he is not treated revenently. How can you say it is the most holy thing ever and treat it like they do grabing it like a kooky. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. and it shoes. Since n.o. mass become the norm the Church and the west has fallen to its knees, evil spirits roam free and the west has truly become the enemys domain. (abortion praized, sodomy praizedm, this transgender lunicy and so on.)
Perfect time for me to watch! God bless, no one posts videos this late usually.
I also attend a TLM. The priest was telling me recently that it’s not so much the Pope that is against the TLM, but it Cardinal Arthur Roche who is the Prefect of the Dicastery for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Still, the Pope has to be an accomplice to this attack to eradicate the TLM. I don’t understand why I read that the TLM cannot be eliminated, but that is exactly what they are doing. Every new priest that wants to say a TLM, they actually have to get approval from Rome to do so. The priests are being allowed to minister to those that currently want the TLM and the hope is that eventually all will die out. Someone I know from the Norvus Ordo happened to come to the TLM and didn’t know that we had this local. I introduced her to the priest and he never welcomed her to come. After she left, he told me that they are not allowed to welcome people to come to the TLM. I guess it’s seen as recruiting. The Pope/Roche/powers that be in Rome, are truly trying to snuff out the faithful and the TLM.
Francis has declared his disdain for traditional Latin mass, he's nothing but a communist in sheep's clothing, I have no idea why Catholics continue to abide by his "rulings."
The reason is that Catholicism is hemorrhaging people. They can’t afford to do everything with extremely orthodox people like you in mind. If they do they won’t exist in 100 years.
Three parishes in my area merged to form one new one and so far it’s worked out well and we have two latin masses.
My brothers and sisters, we welcome you fully into the Orthodox Church. We are very similar and we would love to have you!
The Anglican Ordinariate Parish I went to was closed due to the Church not being able to sustain the funds to fix the building, and our community not being "large" enough to sustain a priest. I've started going to the Greek Slovak Byzantine Catholic Church because the Novus Ordo parishes in my area are super liberal.
I love the Latin Mass, but I've always been able to tell how lots of the people who attend the TLM really look down at this Pope and the Novus Ordo.
The fact that they try to put a (tall) fence between them and the Pope and the Novus Ordo is a clear sign of an issue of communion with the Western Church.
Are there any abuses on the Novus Ordo? Absolutely, unfortunately! But you don't fix an issue by staying away from it and talking smack about it.
The Pope is seeking to end these types of divisions, as well as others, and he's not being act credit - on the contrary.
What's the Novus Ordo? I thought I was a Catholic, but I've only been to Latin Mass once, and this comment section really makes me feel like I'm not doing it right.
The Novus Ordo, the rite created in the XX century, where the priest celebrates "ad populum" facing the worshipers. Thought it can be celebrated in Latin, it is not a norm. It has a focus on the participation of the common worshippers.
The Tridentine Rite, was created in the XVI century, the priest celebrates "ad oriens" facing the east, or altar. It is always celebrated in Latin. Only the priest and deacons interact with the ritual, excluding obviously, the eucharistical feast.@@christophermanley3602
The document to FSSP doesn't say they have to keep with TC. Just consider it as far as possible.
How does it feel knowing your spirituality, formation, and way of articulating the faith is only allowed as a pastoral sensitivity and that your catholic ethos is expected to be phased out of the life of the church now that the Church needs to change and further develop her practices and doctrines?
I'm old enough to remember the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass as well as when the Church went to the Novus Ordo. Somehow, I don't remember a backlash about ending the TLM, and at that time the TLM was much, much more restricted than what it is today. Somehow, the Church survived and no one was saying objectionable things about Pope St Paul VI.
Excellent point.
Well the internet wasn't around back then. So while there were indeed many people who were upset and many that left the church (including nuns, parish priests, and those in religious orders), you wouldn't have necessarily seen or heard about it unless you intentionality investigated.
@@-GodIsMyJudge- It's easy to blame the Novus Ordo Mass for that, but I don't think that was the reason for people leaving the Church. Don't forget that the heresy of modernism was being kicked into high gear at the time with the advent of the 'pill'. It is not the liturgy that results in priests and nuns leaving but satan himself. In other words, Vatican II was coincidental to modernism but not the reason for it.
@@-GodIsMyJudge-Did people really love primarily because of the Mass though? I remember a survey done among religious priests and nuns who left and some of the main reasons included wanting to get married and arguments with superiors. I don’t know if the Mass was the main cause of the exodus.
@@-GodIsMyJudge- You think the nuns and priests left the Church because of the Mass changing to the vernacular?
It's bigger than just the Latin mass. Pope Francis, in his attempt to be friendly to people who openly reject Church doctrine and practice, makes Catholics who strive to be devout and faithful feel ostracized.
Matt, we are not being tolerated. Latin mass has been forbidden in parish churches so we have lost our parish life! We are banished to oratories, chapels etc. where we can only attend a Sunday mass and Holy Days of Obligation are not offered, nor are Requiem Masses or Nuptial Masses, Baptisms, etc. This is not tolerating faithful Catholics in their parish life.
So what? Go to standard, non latin mass. If it is the opposite I would have no problem attending latin mass. People worshipped in tombs with dead bodies around them, and being scared for their life. It should not matter what type of mass we celebrate as long as the sacraments are there.
@@m.935I know of a great mass where they have an awesome interpretive dance routine done during mass. The sacraments are there. Enjoy the show…i mean mass.
@@m.935The short answer is that there are liturgical abuses in the novus ordo; prayers are eliminated or seriously truncated. If the Mass is celebrated ad orientem, communion is distributed on the tongue, by the sanctified hands of a priest, and there are no lay readers, it is like a Catholic Mass and not a Protestant service but it still is not the Mass that nurtured the saints for centuries.
@@m.935 Another stupid comment from an NO fascist...
@@neil2831 In my country there is no such thing as dancing during mass. I live in Croatia. It would be a scandal on a massive scale. The only dance we support is in some countries in Africa where it is part of their culture to express worship through singing and dancing in appropriate moments during Catholic mass. I don't think it has anything to do with novus ordo, but culture in America. You are trying to change the wrong thing.
I pray for you and your parish Brian. Curious about how the ssp Mass is now.
I do think that the Church needs to find a way to deal with this issue properly relatively fast, because we have way bigger problems. Right now, we've got German bishops trying have gay marriage, we have a Catholic population in which the majority does not go to church, we have an actual significant portion of Catholic clergy and episcopate trying to push gay marriage AND female ordination (both of which contradict the Deposit of Faith), and here we are, fighting about how many Masses a week are going to be said in Latin and how many are going to be said in English. I mean, come on.
Let me give you some perspective as a Catholic from an area where the Faith is actually growing and winning new converts: the rural South. Like most Catholics down here, I am deeply conservative and I am also deeply orthodox. I am also a young man. I have also never been to a Traditional Latin Mass or even seen or heard of a church where it is offered in my area. Unlike most areas, the Church here is very young, very active, very orthodox, but most of us are completely oblivious to this whole discussion. I would not be surprised if your average practicing 20-year-old Catholic in Texas doesn't even know what a Traditionalist Catholic is. I'm just saying - right now is time to focus on protecting the Church from the world. Once the worldly infiltration of the Church has been beaten back some, we can then discuss liturgy.
well said!
This issue goes back many decades to a rift caused during Vatican II. I understand that many young Catholic converts have no connection to this, but it’s a pretty big issue that is threatening to maybe result in a Reformation-era type of split if it doesn’t get handled. So I see why Pope Francis takes it so seriously. That said, I believe he is mismanaging the situation badly, and certainly not taking the other side of schism (the LGBT/liberal arm) seriously. The right with the liberal arm of the church is public, whereas the fight with the reactionary arm is more an in-house affair. But both are serious threats to the church. And neither appear to be handled well, at this time at least. Maybe the passage of time will vindicate Pope Francis. In the meantime keep on focusing on your faith and don’t worry about either arm. The gates of hell shall not prevail
I was raised in the Tridentine Mass and saw it suppressed in my later 20s. It was painful, but, now as a priest for almost 50 years, I love the Novus Ordo and have never celebrated of been inclined to celebrate the Latin Mass. I have absolutely no problems with it, nor do I have issues with the people who prefer it. Though I'm Sicilian-American, I have relatives who are Ukrainian Greek (Byzantine) Catholics and Carpatho-Russian Orthodox, so I'm still open to liturgies that are traditional and unchanged. Having written this long intro, let me say that Francis' "Traditionis custodes" was an ugly jolt. In spite of my personal indifference toward the Latin Mass and knowing a few afictionados of the Latin Mass who've annoyed me with their holier-than--though, cloyingly pious attitude, the majority are just fine Catholics trying to live an authentic Catholic life as individuals, families and community. But, the holier-than-thou group's outright hostility and dismissal of the canonical legitimacy of Pope Francis that unnerved me, but they were few among the crowd.
The day Francis ascended the Chair of Peter, the US news commented that he was known to have an explosive temper, and this motu proprio proved it. I was not the only priest who saw it and was deeply disturbed by the angry and even mean spiritedness exhibited in Francis' attitude. It was neither fatherly (il papa) nor pastoral; it was almost vengeful, an proclivity the world's seen when he's even directed this anger at participants of general audiences. Beneath the smiles and quips seems to be a raging volcano about the spout the destructive lava of his wrath. In a word, the motu proprio was seen demonstrate a mean-minded, punitive attitude by many pro-Francis priests and Church commentators, obviously myself included.
He has the unsavory attitude toward cloying virtue signaling, which is tiring, not unlike the ever petulant and self-righteous Greta Thunberg. He has called out people by name, directly, questioning their being truly Christians. He's done this openly to President Trump over many issues and has been openly critical about the sincerity and validity of the faith practiced by US Catholics. I've been around since Pius XII and have never heard such reprobate condemning by a pope. As the late Cardinal George lamented about Francis, he remains completely ambiguous and opaque on critical issues, shooting from the hip without regard for collateral damage by his not-so-friendly gunfire from the hip. My question to him is "How do you lead a flock of some 1.2 to 1.4 billion souls with ambiguity and maintain community cohesion and coherence." Rather, when presented with valid "dubbia" about his pronouncements in encyclicals, his response is either petulant silence or attack. He said he was no at all concerned about a possible schism. What about Jesus' prayer that "they all be one?" He doesn't speak in paradoxes; he pontificates in contradictions.
While he rightly call for a compassionate and listening Church, he's unapologetically closed and condemnatory to his perceived "enemies." For fifty years I've worked with, assisted and defended the undocumented immigrants that arrive at our borders. I've defended their right to migrate and explained the Church's teaching of the issues to news reporters and journalists from various countries - even PBS. But, he calls for a dangerous and destructive chaos. If there is a murderous terrorist attack in the US (like in Israel and Europe) because of unbridled immigration, will he and Biden take responsibility for their incomprehensible irresponsibility? Will he ask us to forgive and forget, as he seems to be asking the Israelis? John Paul II wrote in his encyclical, "Evangelium vitæ," that national leaders and parents have no right to be pacifists. In other words, they have the right and duty to protect their nations and families with proportional force.
Last, he's more controlling than any pope during my lifetime., and a father who controls tends to be an abusive father. The abusive father always tries to act well during public situations, but there is a rage underneath. In private he berates and injures his dependent family members. There is no insight into himself, so he accuses and beats his family who "force" him to hurt them spiritually, emotionally and/or physically to teach them according to a perverse pedagogy. It's never his fault but always his family's and never an apology , because they just refuse to learn. It's an attitude of "I own you; you're completely mine, and I'll do with you as I wish." Thus, there is a violation of boundaries. You must be whom he wants you to be: gay, fine; Latin Mass Catholic; no way.
Well...explosive temper is a way of saying....he is a porteño... :D
Thank you for this explanation Father. I have been troubled to understand Pope Francis and this has given me better insight. As an adult Catholic convert, I came into the Church shortly before Pope Francis was elected to the papacy. Fortunately I have read a fair bit of Church History and it has helped me see that the Church has survived many periods of bad leadership and therefore trust that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail." However, it has been frustrating to have a pope who seems to opposes any areas of the church that are producing good fruit, and is incredibly confusing and lacking in leadership on any subject that desperately needs clarity and good shepherding!!
@@hectorguillermopantalena8700 ¡Anda! ¡Quizas! Pero, yo pensaba que el ambiente y el caracter porteños son bien conocidos por ser alegres.
@@frjimomi los argentinos más italianizados...son jodones..no alegres...y vociferan por nada...aquí en el norte de Argentina te hubieras ido a los puños por comportamiento mucho menos ofensivo que el que se espera que soportes en buenos aires...y como el papa está para estar señalando siempre el punto ciego que ni siquiera sabemos que tenemos...creo que le viene bien...los alegres son otros hispanos
Y siempre lo comparan con Juan Pablo II y Benedicto...pero yo me acuerdo cuando era chico que no pasaba mes o semana a veces que no salga alguien que como puede haber dicho o hecho tal o cual cosa el papa...es como una tradición católica ya hablar mal del sucesor de Pedro...menos mal que Benedicto renunció...sino lo matábamos antes
I felt the same. Like: what am I doing wrong?
Being ridiculous. Just go to the NO. The faith changes, and that’s okay.
@@BassySlidesno
Latin Mass is being quashed at Westminster Cathedral in London. Fewer and fewer Latin Masses in the UK now. I do hope we can get through this! We are blessed locally by a wonderful priest who keeps the Novus Ordo mass as close as possible to the spirit of the traditional, with sung parts in Latin, Gregorian chant and powerful homilies, and plenty of incense.
✝ Pope Francis comes across like some type of liberal united nations ambassador instead of a real pope.The Catholic Church needs someone like the great German cardinal Gerhard Muller to lead.
This pope has kept me from being convinced to join the Catholic Church. He has caused me so much confusion.
@@TheBirdierougeyup, the Catholics have the institutional structure to do a lot of good. But Francis and his acolytes are a virus.
@@TheBirdierougeGood, we dont need anymore conservatives plaguing the Gospel
You're just mad because he's calling out conservative Catholics lack of fruit
@@MasterKeyMagic whoever you are- you’re so out of line here it’s gross. Pathetic really.
We are having to beg for our birthright. Our diocese has “permitted” us to go to a TLM mass at a diocesan church (hoping the pope will eventually sign off on it, and having now kicked us out of the diocesan parish where we have been at home for years), and we are only permitted Sunday masses. We don’t even have a mass on Christmas Day at this parish church, or any holy day of obligation. Those only happen at the shrine an hour away. Am I grateful that we have it at all? Yes. But I’m tired of having to kiss the hand that beats me.
As much as I'd love to have Latin mass, we don't have the Latin mass on my island, (and ALL 4 of my family members have complex health issues making it difficult to just up and move). Other than that, this is a very good clip and I agree it's a shame. I'm not opposed to the Latin mass at all, as I said, we just don't have it here. I would love to be going to the Latin mass.
Novus Ordo was a break with tradition, and that denial of revelation is an act of heresy.
I look forward to discussions about the Latin Mass. Like this discussion, it reminds me of those people in a communist or fascist country, who can’t really express what they feel for fear of being erased. I wonder if more Catholics with influence and exposure were less inhibited, the hierarchy would be more repressive or more accepting of the TLM. Where is this situation headed? Can you read the tea leaves and speculate?
Read the lives of the saints of centuries past - one can never be " excessive" in love of and devotion to Christ 🙏✝️
Hostility to the Latin mass extends down to the priesthood in some cases. At a Novis Ordo mass I attended last week the priest said, from the pulpit, "Can you imagine a mass where the priest had his back to you for an hour and mumbled in Latin so you had no idea what he was saying and they had to ring bells to wake you up?. Well that's the way it was when i was ordained in 1964. Thank God the Second Vatican Council changed that." I was quite surprised to hear a priest talk that way!
I would have walked out.
You were surprised to hear the priest ….. speaking the truth?
Genuinely curious as to what you found surprising about this.
Oh dear, this is not good.
Priests are supposed to be more educated than the rest of us, not anti Catholic bigots. Even children can understand the Latin Mass.
@@brandywineblue what do you mean by “understand” the Mass? What age of children are we talking about? What is their level of comprehension?
Stating the truth is not bigotry.
Thank you both, thank you.
Obedience is a difficult virtue; it is never easy to surrender one's own will and rely on something outside of ourselves. we are called to have faith, but some calls are more difficult than others. have faith brothers and sisters.
But must resist wicked intentions... we have been doing the "be prayerful and silent" thing for the past 60 years and the Church is on its knees.
@@sergesavard636That is just your perspective, it's not the truth
@@myfakinusername A collapse in the belief in the Real Presence, as well Church attendance, ordinations, Catholic marriages and baptisms. Sexual and financial scandal, a betrayal of the Faithful Underground Church in China. homoheresy running amok.. Tell me where any of this is a lie ??????????????
I think we should keep the Latin Mass restricted, and also have priests speak against lukewarmness or closing parishes that don’t get attendance. Why not cut out the deficiency and the excess at the same time?
Also, this is some false ignorance, pretending that you don’t see issues with TLM communities.
Sedevacantism comes from the trads. Pope Francis answered a dubia on why he restricted the Latin Mass. It is the divisiveness from trads that led to the restrictions.
Be real traditionalists:. Obedient to the church. Trad priests and bishops should honor their obedience oaths, right?
If sedevacantists are correct (which they are) this is EXACTLY what you would expect the antipope to do. He's only proving them right.
My deep reverence for the Traditional Latin Mass is unwavering; however, it prompts me to reflect upon the apparent pride exhibited by those who attend it. Traditional Latin Mass adherents often embark on a quest to establish the supremacy of their liturgical practice over the Novus Ordo Mass and the associated parishes. They frequently resort to numerical comparisons, citing the greater attendance at a TLM Mass in contrast to a Novus Ordo gathering. This, however, fails to consider the disparity in availability between the two forms.
The theological nuances of this situation evoke profound contemplation. Within the community of devout traditionalists, there emerges a categorical rejection of the Novus Ordo Mass as a legitimate mode of divine worship. Such unwavering convictions propel them toward an augmented sense of isolation, which subsequently engenders a perceived spiritual superiority when interacting with those beyond their immediate sphere. Perturbingly, this mindset has given rise to a disquieting trend of undermining the Magisterium and challenging the legitimacy of ecclesiastical authority. This trend deepens their present disillusionment with the state of the Church, fostering theological doubt and uncertainties regarding divine providence.
In fairness, it is imperative to acknowledge that not all traditionalists subscribe to this characterization. Nevertheless, my personal observations in the local context compel me to discern that the traditionalist movement in my vicinity is bereft of innate attraction. In light of these considerations, one may legitimately query why individuals from outside their immediate circles would gravitate towards their convictions. This prevailing approach to the faith journey appears to deviate from the foundational principles of effective evangelization, raising theological and philosophical questions deserving of contemplation and discussion.
Extremely insightful comment.
I don't think that there is anything wrong in admitting that the TLM is a superior form of worship. It just is. Not only is it more reverent, but it is the result of the organic development of the entire Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit through 1500 years. In contrast, the NO Mass was created by a committee in the span of a few years. It doesn't mean that the NO Mass is invalid, or that it isn't divine worship. But I think that it should be obvious that what the entire Church constructed during 1500 years is going to be more timeless and appropriate for worship, than what a committee (as experts as they might be, but some of them had clearly bad intentions) created in a few years.
Well said and bravo. Thank you for your insight!
@@cfban When Martin Luther broke away from the Church, there was only one liturgy available and that was the Latin Mass. No one has done more damage to the Church then he did, but I digress.
Yes, poorly celebrated NO Masses did nothing to help the Church but there are poorly celebrated Latin Masses as well. I have heard from one person that they once attended 20 minute daily Latin Masses when they were growing up. I highly doubt that the priest was celebrating that Mass as the superior form of worship. In the beginning there was no liturgy as the first Christians broke bread and received their portion on the hand and yet the Church grew. The Holy Spirit guided the Church at that time, through the Latin Mass ages, and now.
@@clq2461 what does Martin Luther have to do with anything that I said?
And sure, we can cherry pick examples of sloppy Masses in any rite, but that's not what I'm talking about. Although the worst and sloppiest TLM will be a rushed and mumbled Low Mass; the worst NO Mass will be literally a clown show with bubbles, rock n' roll, and dancing in the sanctuary .
When I say that the TLM is the superior form of worship, I am talking about the Order of the Mass, not about any individual celebration. The old Order of the Mass captures better the divine and sacrificial nature of the Mass. That is the most important thing of the Liturgy, way more than the bells and smells. That's what I am saying. The worst, sloppiest and most rushed TLM will still have a superior Order of the Mass than the most beautiful Novus Ordo with Latin, Gregorian chant, incense and reverence.
To the people who love TLM and say that the FSSPX is too radical:
Ok. You can't just ignore everything the pope says. I get that. What do you do when the pope just prohibits TLM in your parish though?
In my city there is a single TLM parish, and that parish has easily 5-6 times more people attending than any other NO mass. Lots of young people too, and they’re raising so much money.
It’s ironic (dare I say, intentional) that Traditionis Custodes was meant to “prevent division” by the “schismatic” traditionalists, when in reality it has only caused immense division. There isn’t a single trad catholic that feels more in union with the Vatican after TC.
The 'preventing division' thing is so ridiculous that I can't believe it. It has to have been done to create division, to root out traditionalists. It's not surprising when so many of the top church leadership seem to actually despise real Catholicism. They judge the church by progressive standards and want the church to conform to those
I'm in a parish in Winchester, VA and it's standing room only at most masses. Why? It's a very traditional parish. It offers confession during mass at every mass. It has kneelers for communion. The priests preach boldly. Yes, It is NO, but a LM is offered in the school multi purpose room.
I don't really understand what all of this is about, but I hope yall can get your Latin mass back. Glad its really hard to change anything in our Church. Good luck! ☦️
I grew up with mass in latin, a language no one I knew spoke. I was an observer not a participant.
The move to the vernacular was amazing, here was a mass I could fully understand and feel part of.
When sent out to spread the gospel the apostles were given the gift to understand and speak languages other than hebrew, for me the foundation of the vernacular.
The Bible makes no mention of Jesus speaking Latin despite the Roman occupation
Thank you for calling us Protestants “friends”. I really appreciate it (I hope it wasn’t in quote marks).
No. despite some really nasty remarks we get on RUclips (pretty sure there are some below), you are friends...
@@glennlanham6309there is nastiness from both sides
@@fujikokun true, but just say I am Catholic on here and see what reaction you get in the comments...
@@glennlanham6309YEAH WELL YOU WOULD SAY THAT my brother because man, I have seen some awful stuff from each side. Hurts to see members of the body of Christ so determined to tear each other apart over factions.
@@fujikokunThere is, but as someone who was raised Protestant and only converted this year, I never really got much crap for being Baptist unless I started deliberately debating points in Catholic spaces. Since converting to Catholicism, I've been condemned to hell more in the last few months than the previous 25 years of my life. People constantly calling me an idolator, Papist, Romanist, Mary-worshipping, Pelagianist and so on. Protestant is, in fact, a protest, and I didn't notice the spirit of rebellion in Protestantism until I left it.
My main question for trad Catholics is why don’t you go to your local parish? Is it that the TLM is aesthetically pleasing? The parish is too elderly? You don’t consider the NO valid? All of these questions are based in Protestant thinking. If you’re a catholic you should do what the Church says. If the Church wants everyone to go to their local parish and use the same liturgy then you should do it. All of the “problems” with the NO parishes would be fixed by everyone attending and participating with their local liturgies
I am glad the converts eyes are finally opened and they feel secure enough in their knowledge of the faith, and no longer allow themselves to be "gaslighted." I know that a newcomer feels obliged to demonstrate loyalty to the Church, but we are sadly in the situation where the children have to correct their Father
Hubo veces que fue así...pero estamos seguros que el papa es el único con viga en el ojo aquí?
No tendrá que ver con que este es el camino de otra escisión en la iglesia? Los obispos alemanes con su modernismo y los latinistas yéndose por el mismo derrotero que la asociación San pio x? Con los anti vaticano segundo? No será ese el peligro que se trata de corregir? Hasta el padre Riperger dijo que los trads ya parecen gnósticos...ven conmigo...tengo este secreto escondido aquí
@hectorguillermopantalena8700 so when did it suddenly become not OK to warn a friend that they are driving straight off a cliff? Today's attitude is that a real friend would not only say nothing about it, but also "accompany" that driver to support them...with support defined as "putting cinder blocks on the gas pedal without diverting the steering wheel from the edge."
@@brandywineblueyou aren't in that position, you are just wrong. Pope Francis is correct and we absolutely needed Custodians of Tradition
@@brandywineblue donde dije algo parecido a que no hay que corregir? Yo dije que hay corregir los dos extremos...y que solo los oigo quejarse y no preguntarse que podemos estár haciendo mal...
Question: if keeping the community is the priority, couldn’t you keep attending the parish & attend the NO? If the Eucharist is the priority would it be worth leaning into the NO to maintain the parish life?
All these professional lay Catholics seem to avoid their local parishes....it's always some special Byzantine rite oratory 100 miles away...Maybe some of them are being called to come down to be with their brothers and sisters...not in a presbyterian style society of the elect, but with the baddies and cafeteria catholics, and regular screwed up people.
Exactly this. I think part of the reason is the (admittedly correct) idea that the mass is supposed to nourish us spiritually, so they conclude a lackluster liturgy or spiritually dead parish is to be avoided for the sake of their own souls. Maybe so, but that is something of a weakness.
The problem I see with this reasoning though is that there is a whole Church shopping consumerist mentality that creeps in... I hate sounding saccharine and corny but we have obligations to our brothers and sisters in our territorial parish. If the parish is ailing, then you have some responsibility over that as well.
The sacraments are the main nourishment, and thankfully they work ex opera operato, but spiritual health isn't just about nourishment but also about exercising our "particular office" and spiritual gifts, so to speak, designated for us at the sacrament of confirmation.
Great point
I say this with all the love I can muster I have absolutely no clue what your point is here. Can you articulate your stance in more direct concrete terms
@@ItBeTheWayItDoSomeTimesI think what he's saying is that some people are being very picky about the parish they attend for reasons not entirely related to piety (ex. maybe they think their local parish "isn't reverent enough") so instead of staying with their local parish they leave for a parish they prefer. This could be interpreted as uncharitable, like you hold yourself above the people around you and you want to go be with "more holy" people.
Of course, there's no way to know what's in someone's heart when they choose a mass/parish, so we shouldn't paint TLM people with the same brush.
My favorite example of this is Michael Lofton from Reason & Theology, who built a chapel at his home and has a Byzantine priest come once a month rather than attend his local parish.
In my diocese there is an actual parish of the FSP Order and it's listed as a parish in the diocese. They are operating just as any other parish. However we also have a Bishop that is more traditional.
I love my NO mass. It's what I grew up with, and I know Jesus is there.
I guess I don't understand the hang ups about the NO. It sounds a little like our prodestant brothers and sisters shopping around for the Church with the best music to me. I'm sure I just don't know the whole story, but I don't think God is more present at the Latin mass than the NO.
Amen! Thank you for saying this obvious truth
A Norvus Ordo Mass can be done well or very poorly. Since the 70s there has been a wide range of variations.
Some of the excesses of the ‘Spirit of Vatican II’ still has some masses with Liturgical dancers, demanding no bells at consecration, and words of the mass being said like improv.
In the 70s there were sometimes clown masses and wizard masses…the priests would dress up to try to make a spiritual point.
Many Novus Ordo masses still have the priests who basically push for same sex acceptance without any discussion of Jesus’ words, ‘ Go and sin no more’
Some parishes have only the love gospel and the be nice gospel taught.
Some are very good and didactic, promote good t aching and sacrament and so on.
But most are quite empty.
The parishes that are Latin Mass are full, lots of young families, they do not have improv Mass. it is done as it should and with reverence and usually the priest gives a sermon that actually has a lot more meat than the ‘Jesus wants you to be nice’ sorts of sermons at so many Novus Ordo.
I go to a very good Novus Ordo parish daily( when possible) and started going to Latin Mass on Sunday.
@@mikethemonsta15 Ba ha ha ha ha ha.... Novus Ordo is a failure... end of story
The centralized leadership and authority of the Papacy is often characterized as a strength of the Catholic Church, but this is the flip side of the same coin. It is equally a threat to spiritual vigor and faithful expression of our love for Christ when it imposes limits on what was previously celebrated and traditional forms of worship. Say what you will about the perceived chaos of Protestant ecclesiastical organization, but it easily handles this sort of conflict. I empathize with my Catholic brethren on the inner turmoil this must cause for many of them. God forbid when a truly liberal Pope ascends and upends the orthodox positions on issues such as sexuality and self-identity!
Yes! This is exactly what is happening in my diocese. I share his sentimental and very well said.
Some more staunch English mass Goers have often said so as to refute the growth of Yhe Traditional movement:
"Most Traditional Catholics only attend the TLM once a month"
Which would be a fair argument if it were not the case that in many places its nearly impossible to find a traditional latin mass be offered more than once a month within the diocese. I drive 40 minutes to reach my Parish for weekly mass and many in our parish drive even longer. We have 1400 parishioners .
The reverence ,and the holiness that was the Latin mass are sorely missed. 😢😢💔🙏🏾🙏🏾
I've never been able to attend a latin mass in my whole life. Only in recent years I came back to the Catholic Church, and the only parish in my city (Santiago, a 7 million people city), was banned from celebrating the tridentine liturgy (Una Voce was the organization that took care to preserve it here). I find this baffling.
Brian made an interesting comment in this video: "I never could have imagined that I would have direct contact with a decision made by the Bishop of Rome." I couldn't help but ask myself: why not? If you are Catholic, and you believe in papal supremacy and all entailed, why wouldn't you expect something like this to happen?
I'm not trying to be combative in any way, but it breaks my heart to see Catholics who love their faith be at the mercy of an autocrat who has no connection to tradition. You will not find this degree of papal control anywhere in the early church. It does not exist.
Well what he’s saying is that the flourishing and devout community he and his family belong to were negatively affected by the Pope’s decision, which, at the end of the day, doesn’t make any sense. The Popes historically, including the last 2, Benedict and John Paul II, were VERY supportive of the Latin Mass, and don’t get me started on what Pius X did for reverence and tradition in the Church. So, your argument against Papal supremacy is pretty backwards. A bad Pope, or a Pope with bad actions doesn’t refute Papal Primacy or Papal supremacy, because Catholics don’t believe the Pope is the head of the Church, that’s heresy.
@@CatholicsForTrump Thanks for the reply, but I wasn't per se making an argument against papal supremacy (even though I'm strongly against it). I'm simply commenting on the fact that it's odd for someone like Brian to be offended by a far away bishop meddling in the spiritual life of his local community when that's definitionally part of the papacy, which he also endorses.
@@StoneRobbins "when that's definitionally part of the papacy" It's not really. The Catholic Church has bishops, and it has parish priests who act as parish administrators and pastors. Subsidiarity is also a part of the Catholic tradition. TC and the subsequent Roche "clarification" went against the principle of subsidiarity, going as far as directing what parishes could put into their bulletins. It is an unprecedent level of intervention that the Vatican has not engaged in to this extant. Does the Pope have the juridical authority to do this? Yes. Is it wise for him to do this? I don't think so. But that is a distinction that you are missing (authority vs. prudence), and I think what Brian was getting at with his comment.
@@Desert-Father "Does the Pope have the juridical authority to do this? Yes."
So you admit then, that the pope does have the authority to directly intervene in the parish life at the local level. Just out of curiosity, could the pope theoretically restrict other rites, like the Byzantine rite as well?
@@StoneRobbins Yes, the Pope has the authority to intervene in parish life and direct how liturgies function. I would just question the prudence and wisdom of how it is being done in this situation.
As for the restriction of other rites, even Eastern Rites, yes ultimately the Pope has the authority to regulate liturgical functions. Pastor Aeternus is quite clear in this area:
"Wherefore we teach and declare that,
by divine ordinance, the Roman church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other church, and that
this jurisdictional power of the Roman pontiff is both episcopal and
immediate. Both clergy and faithful,
of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this
not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the church throughout the world."
Again, I would consider such an intervention into Eastern Rites to be unwise and imprudent, but I cannot deny that the Pope has the authority to regulate the liturgy of every Rite.
That excerpt from Ybarra was fantastic 🔥💪 thanks Brian & Matt!
I've never been to a TLM. I go to an ordinariate parish which is aesthetically similar. I do feel sorry for the TLM people though.
I think it is significant that these two major podcasters are finally onboard with acknowledging major concerns with Pope Francis. I can’t figure out why Trent Horn is the big holdout. He seems to be the poster boy for “hear no evil, see no evil.”
I've heard him mention it in passing but I think he's just more focused on his other goals of evangelization and defending the faith
Trent mentioned that he doesn’t attend the Tridentine Mass so maybe that’s why this issue is not a big concern for him.
Concerns aside, he’s still the Pope. I wish the TLM wasn’t being restricted as well, but there’s probably a reason for it. There are people who won’t attend the Novus Ordo if they can’t get to the TLM, which is mortal sin. This clip references the Mass of the Ages documentary, which featured people like that. We do not need to be promoting those people.
We need to give the Pope the benefit of the doubt and pray for him and not assume what his intentions are. If Holdsworth didn’t state he assumes as much, I think he came pretty close to it. I think people who attend a certain liturgy and dislike other liturgies should ask themselves, “Would my faith be ok if I didn’t have this liturgy and had to attend a different one?” Because if it wouldn’t, I don’t even know if that’s the Church’s problem. That might be that person’s problem.
The liturgy is supposed to point to the truth. Whatever direction the priest faces, that part of the Mass is a symbol. I may prefer it a certain way, but in a sense it doesn’t matter which way he’s turned. Because what isn’t a symbol is the Eucharist. What isn’t a symbol is the whole of Heaven being present. What isn’t a symbol is what actually happens at every Mass, no matter what liturgy it is. If you leave the Church or ignore her based on your personal preference, that’s really just another form of Protestantism.
It's because his livelihood depends on being paid-off by jews (satanists).
If you want a glimpse into how the jews buy people out, read Matin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies" wherein he admits that jews paid him off to ignite the Protestant Reformation, then bemoans them for not paying him still after the fact.
@@rafiki1017
I don't really have much of a problem with the Novus Ordo. I do attend my local parish and that is NO. If it is done well, and most of the time it is in my parish, I don't have an issue with it. However, not too far away is a church that does the Latin Mass. I sometimes attend there and to me it is obvious that this liturgy is far superior to NO. Apart from that, it _is_ the tradition of the Church, dating back to the Council of Trent in the 1500's and that too just codified standing practice going back right to antiquity, or at the very least the early Middle Ages. The NO is obviously a very different thing and it is a novelty, invented in the 1970's. Trying to rewrite history and to pretend that the Church started at Vatican II is a lie, plain and simple.
For some reason there is in the leadership of the Church a hatret against the Latin Mass. I want to understand where that comes from. What is it that they find so objectionable? I don't see it. Up until now, no one has anwered that question to me. Why does Pope Francis try to stamp it out? I can assume that he must have _some_ reason and leave it at that, but that is not very satisfactory. The question remains. And it does strike me as cynical and unnecessarily offensive to call a document "Traditionis custodis" when that document tries to destroy the tradition. I think the Papacy is one of the best features of the Catholic Church, but this Pope does make it very difficult to me to just assume he has good reasons for what he's doing. At least with Pope Benedict one knew that when he said something, he had thought about it and that he had good reasons. With Pope Francis you never know whether there is a reason, or it is just sloppiness, or it is him trying to be woke or something, or it is just some thoughtless remark or it is bad intent. I really do try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he does make it hard. Very hard.
As far as I'm concerned, the NO doesn't have to be abolished. Yes, there are some excesses (in my experience far less than there used to be) and those should be fought. Also I would prefer much stricter rules about what music is allowed. Now it seems to be that almost anything goes. But that is tweaking. But I really don't understand what's the problem with the Latin Mass. As far as I'm concerned, tthe two can coexist peacefully. I think that would be far better. And I think that the Vatican can put it's energy to better use than fighting it's own tradition. There is work enough to do for the Church in the world of today.
As long as we can celebrate the Eucharist I'm happy. That being said I have nevwr attended Latin Mass but I hear it's beautiful
I would highly recommend you attend a Latin Mass, whether TLM or Norvus Ordo. Yes, celebrating the Eucharist is the important thing, but celebrating it in a beautiful way helps elevate your worship. My kids love the TLM and Latin Norvus Ordo, they can't stand a badly done Norvus Ordo.
You will find out differently if you study and pay attention to everything
How is this different from what Paul the VI and JPII did to the Latin mass?
As an Orthodox person, I’m glad to not have to deal with this. I have a lot of sympathy.
This clip was my favorite part of the whole interview.
As a Protestant, I respect what you said about the Pope not always being right. I want to learn more about what you both mean by that! Thanks.
Maybe I can help. The idea of papal infallibility only applies to a certain kind of pronouncement regarding the faith. It has only been invoked a few times in Church history. It’s not even really about the pope; it’s about the Holy Spirit protecting and guiding the Church.
Unfortunately, the Church is staffed by a bunch of people. Like the apostles, they are capable of all sorts of error in the absence of the Holy Spirit’s guidance. The wonder if it all, though, is that the Church endures and retains the Faith despite the people in it. That’s where I see the Holy Spirit working.
@@steelmongoose4956thanks for the helpful explanation. As a charismatic who believes in prophecy, I, too, believe the Holy Spirit works through people in the church, albeit they are fallible and won’t always get it right. So I find that that is a similarity between how you view ex cathedra and how I view prophecy.
@@steelmongoose4956I think some Protestants def have some stereotypes of what Catholics believe. And one of them is that the pope is this person who does nothing wrong.
I wish we could both come to understand each other better. So I’m glad I just realized this!
@@peterh.8027as a Catholic, God bless you.
Please don’t hesitate to ask any other questions.
I do know a family who goes to Latin Mass. Although I know many novus ordo people like ourselves. But I hear zero hostility about it.
I Think Its About Time to Invite Sam Shamiun now that He is a Catholic Glory to GOD!!
When did this happen, and where was it announced?
I went to both of the churches he's talking about before, as a visitor. I appreciated both a lot. The priest was very nice. Anyone who's catholic in Edmonton Alberta should go see the Latin mass here, it's good.
Two of my favorite Catholic RUclipsrs at the same time!! This should be good!!
Can't say I'm surprised.
Best pray so God will reveal and root out globalism from catholic priesthood.
JPII KISSED THE KORAN, knowing it’s contents, I assume.
Thumbnail is misspelled again. "Traditionis" is how it should be spelled, not "Traditiones". See the difference? Should end in "-is," not "-es."
As a Protestant the number 1 reason I cannot accept RCC is their blind allegiance to the authority of a sinful man. I agree as Protestants we can do the same thing with our obsession with celebrity pastors. It’s probably just rooted in sinful nature to exalt particular sinners among us. For that we should be ashamed. But RCC writes it into their confession and have divided the church by making it a test of true faith.
Francis once again proves that having a magisterium does not protect the body of Christ from heresy or a tyrant.