The Most Striking Change Since Vatican II
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
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When I first became #Catholic, if I was going to pick up something to read to study the #faith, it was almost exclusively going to be something contemporary. So, examples of that would be encyclicals by John Paul II or Benedict XVI, modern apologetics, and devotional literature originating in the latter 20th century.
And then as I worked my way through those resources, I eventually started to read older Catholic texts, like older encyclicals and councils, #Church fathers, scholastic sources, etc. and I have to admit, I was dumbstruck by how sharp the contrast was between older texts and newer ones.
I had heard people claim that there was a rupture in the Catholic Church that took place in the 20th century, and not having had much experience of that myself, I didn’t pay much sympathy towards those kinds of sentiments. They seemed extreme and hysterical to me.
But through this process of reading a more comprehensive body of literature, my own sensibilities on such claims have grown in sympathy. Now, I don’t agree that there’s a rupture in the fundamental sense, as if to say, the essence of the Church has been lost, but I do think that there is a very striking transformation that took place within the Church over the 20th century.
And it’s what I would describe as the misplacement of ornamentation.
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
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Dear Brian, you realize you plead for more Orthodoxy into the Catholic Church, or am I mistaken ? If you take a look over the 1054 fence you see that the authenticity of Dogma and Worship it seems to me you are pleading for are preserved in a living way, so it could be a source of inspiration for the modern Catholic Church too. Both in Eastern and (rarest but existing) Western rites
you seem to have lots of support which is weird cos this is just another channel of hot air and empty claims. get god on the show and i'll be impressed but in the meantime, just stop blathering on about things you have no evidence for.
Over the past two years, we've travelled on pilgrimage to France and Poland. The beauty and ornamentation of those old churches is stunning and so inspiring. There wasn't a church we walked into that we didn't immediately feel the desire to kneel in quiet reverence before the Blessed Sacrament and pray to our Lord. I've never gotten that at our old parish back home that was built in a post-modern style. Thank you, Brian. I'm glad to support you.
That’s not good. One shouldn’t look for the beauties of the Parish since the beauty himself is at the Blessed Sacrament despite how the Parish looks.
The Second Vatican Council replaced the Holy Sacrifice of The Mass with one holy mess.
@StJohn6islifeeternal the Beauty of the Church points to and elevates the Blessed Sacrament. It's the same Blessed Sacrament in plain or extravagant settings, that's true, but the surroundings highlight the sacredness. Just like the Blessed Virgin Mary points to and highlights Christ.
If you know how andnyou have the money, God at least deserves better than buildings which have been designed with the idea of failing to evoke sublime feelings as the objective. Which newer church buildings usually do, protestant and catholic alike. No flying buttresses or sweeping gables, no towering Georgian steeples, but only studies in gray and right angles mors appropriate for a storage facility.
@@JWellsUpThat's what the evangelical protestants said in the 16th century, when they stripped the churches to the bare minimum. That's a protestant attitude. Catholics have traditionally sought to give glory to God in all facets of church life, including in church architecture, art, and ornamentation.
I'm not anti-novus ordo by a longshot. However, the music frequently makes me cringe--and I'm in the choir! Having studied music history and sung "early music" I have intimate experience with the beauty and transcendent qualities we now set aside.
💯% agree
My only problem with this is that there seems to be a stubborn resistance to encouraging and developing new music that does the same as the old music. This completely removes from the church any charism for music artistry. Please let’s not do that.
There needs to be some sense of the church as a complete whole - old and new, not just old.
Always with a mindset to elevation of heart, mind, soul to heaven.
@@vinciblegaming6817I'm honestly not sure who the new developers (composers) are. It's really not as difficult as you might think. Choose your text, and make the melody fit the words. Use reasonable voice-leading rules so melodies are easy to sing and memorable. If I had a nickel for every Gloria that sounded like a dirge and had notes & rhythms that made no sense...
@@musicmama2864 but isn’t that the classical way? Difficult to follow Melodies are common in Gregorian chant.
I don’t think it’s difficult excepting threading the needle of congregational expectation and the change in knowledge and skill available to the church today, but instead wishing for something that doesn’t currently exist (but could if we encourage and invest in it).
@@vinciblegaming6817 Chant melodies are not hard to follow at all if you've had some training and experience. That's how you would have heard them in the congregation at a Latin Mass. It's my understanding that with Vatican II they wanted the congregation to be more involved--and singing. The new, non-traditional music was supposed to be accessible. I'm no expert but I believe they borrowed from many protestant hymn tunes to fill out Catholic hymnals (from my memory of being a child in the 70s/80s). I witnessed a lot of change in hymns from the 90s to now. Many of the options have melodies and rhythms that aren't intuitive. The tune doesn't go where you think it will--the next note is way out in left field. If I don't have the notes in front of me it takes forever to learn. How is an untrained congregant going to get it and feel comfortable singing? Either make it easy and memorable (like Here I Am, or Hymn of St. Francis), or go back to having professional musicians but with really high-quality pieces that stir the soul with their beauty.
Im gonna be bona fide Catholic this Easter Vigil! I am only receiving the Eurharist from a priest, and on the tongue only
I only go to the priest. I will change lines.
@@christinereich6050 based
While I more than agree Eucharist should be given only by the priest we should never presume that it is immoral to receive it from a layman. It is only untraditional. So please don't imply tongue communion is necessary for being a bona fide catholic
@@igorlopes7589 wasn't my aim, bruh. You are the one who read more into my comment than what was necessary.
@@reverendcoffinsotherson5807The problem is that other people might read that into your comment
Dostoyevsky said: that beauty will save the world and I believe that liturgical beauty will help to save our souls.
Well said.
@@TheGringoSalado thanks 😊
@@stevensonrf I’ve been saying in this day and age in particular, Catholics need to wrestle with Dostoevsky’s Grand Inquisitor. Not Head in sand, but rather a courageous willingness to acknowledge reality and still love and fight for the Church. The time for Gaslighting and naivety is over.
@@TheGringoSalado Amen!
Fyodor Dostoyevsky was an Orthodox Christian. May God remember him in his Kingdom!
Here in Spain there are some awe inspiring churches. Sadly, in the wake of Vatican II the Spanish decided it would be a good idea to build churches that ressembled grain silos or steel works. The contrast in beauty between pre 60's and post 60's architecture is astonishing. In the city where I live they recently renovated the old prison that had been engulfed by the city. The council went to great lengths to restore it to its original state, because it is considered a building of great beauty. How telling that prisons of 150 years ago are more beautiful than Catholic churches built in the last 50 years!
God willing churches like La Sagrada Familia will revive the desire for beauty in younger Catholics.
You have a great point here. I knew a man who was Buddhist and followed some very dubious gurus, he became more nervous and agitated. He was critical of Catholicism through the stuff he read in the media. Anyway, he dated a Polish woman and they went to Poland for 2 weeks. I bumped into him at the supermarket and he rushed towards me to tell me about the Churches his girlfriend took him to visit in Poland, he talked about how beautiful and spiritual they were and apologised to me for been so critical of catholicism. I haven't seen him since but i sure hope he was converted and married that Polish lady.
Great story. Thanks for sharing!
We need to go back to a pre Vatican II attitude. No salvation outside the Church, ad orientum, Eucharist on the tongue, no extra ordinary ministers, kneeling, tabernacle in the center.
Not that there aren’t Vatican II attributes that we can still hold too
Ok there
@@derek4412 That is great, as long we also remember to put emphasis on parts of Scripture that were deemphasized in the last decades, like the imprecatory Psalms that were basically banned from the NO. Or passages that warn us against sin and unworthy communion etc.
so you believe protestants should go to hell... thanks for reminding me why im not catholic
I’m a Byzantine Catholic, so your comment doesn’t really apply to me, but I’d be down for this, if the Old Mass could also be celebrated in the vernacular.
Agreed. There was an overcorrection here. Good news is that younger priests are much more conservative so over time the Church will find its way back. I may not see it but I think my daughter will
Totally agree. We need more beauty in the churches, and a whole lot more clarity in the theology.
One of the reasons I think Eastern Catholic parish attendance is growing is because the faithful find everything they are due there-beautiful churches, reverent, unchanged liturgies (which are beautiful and transcendent, but also understandable and participatory) small, tight knit communities, and authentic Catholic theology. In most Roman parishes, you have to negotiate some of these goods, but it’s rare to find them all.
“Vatican 2 wasn’t responding to some urgent and complex controversy”
Sure it was, the world was becoming increasingly secularized after 2 world wars and the church needed new vigor to meet that challenge in the modern day. There was no big new doctrine to define, the church has already well defined it’s teaching in the prior 20 ecumenical councils, this is why it was a “pastoral” council since its goal was on HOW to present what the church teaches.
So secularization of the church is the right call? NO.
When you read the statements by Pope John XXIII (at the opening) and Pope Paul VI (at the close), neither of those popes had any intention of casting aside settled dogma. Unfortunately, Vatican II was implemented by certain members of the clergy in such a way as to cause a rupture with Sacred Tradition. It got to the point that Pope Paul VI made reference to the "smoke of Satan" now being in the tabernacle towards the end of his papacy.
Brian, Great video however I think you're mistaken that Vatican II was not dealing with a complex and urgent issue in the church.
Besides the Protestant Revolution modernism and the rise of modern scientism is the greatest fundamental shift in human thinking that has ever occurred.
I get frustrated with this idea that everything was great beforr Vatican II do when the evidence is just not there.
Sometimes I feel like because we're so dissatisfied with the way the world is we create a false ideas of how the world was.
Doesn't mean the solution implemented after it in the seventies was a true answer to the problem
Immerse yourself in the books and videos of Bishop Fulton J Sheen.
There is an old saying, "the bigger they are the harder they fall". The statement is often used in a pejorative way. Dissidents who are trying to bring down a powerful dictator will often say this. But the statement can also be applied to a positive situation that goes bad. When a very religious and holy society decides to turn away from God and embrace sin, the fall is often very devastating. The moral deterioration of the society happens very quickly and the degeneracy that is embraced is very evil. This is what happened in Europe and North America in the 20th century. There was a sudden rejection of Christianity in favor of secularism. The moral and spiritual deterioration happened so rapidly. It continues to this day, and it feels like nothing can stop it.
Very interesting point about "the spirit of" only ever being used in reference to VII. Canary in the coal mine?
They use the same glossing over, marketing/packaging for communism. “Communism has never been implemented correctly = VII has never been implemented correctly”
Amen, Brother.
Brian, You are so right! We are living through a new age of iconoclasm. We recently put up some very simple statues, and a couple of icons in our sanctuary, and I was told by the diocesan liturgical committee, that I needed to “declutter” our sanctuary.🤣
@SolidDavid197 😇👍
Sounds more like Quakers than Catholics.
“Declutter” sounds like it’s straight out of Susan's mouth 😂
You are being too nice. The Church went through it's 1789 accir\oding to Ratzinger. There was more than a change. There was a break. Once you see it, you can't un~see it. God Bless and Mary protect you!
It was a rupture.
It’s spiritual abuse, caused by the stonecutters, as predicted by Our Lady of Good Success.
Laudetur Jesus Christus. Fruits of V2 are obvious. It's important to recognize this fact
What we need to be aware of is that this is mainly a problem of the Catholic Church in the West. Having travelled in southern India, some of the newer churches are so richly decorated that they look as if they were built over a century ago, when in fact they were built 10 to 20 years ago at most. There are more fanciful buildings too, of course, but the difference is striking. Whereas in Europe we're in the process of distancing ourselves from a certain architectural tradition, in India (Tamil Nadu), where the faith is more alive, the buildings claim a classical style. I don't know if we'll ever be able to make such buildings at reasonable cost again.
It amazes me that we think that going back in time will somehow renew an impoverished church and culture. Don't get me wrong, I love beauty, the smell of old wood, stained glass and holy decorations. A holy man with knowledge and wisdom inspired by the Holy Spirit feeding his flock on the side of a hill is far more important than an ornate cathedral. People left the most beautiful Catholic churches in droves pre Vatican II. Beauty is nice but, "Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain."
Can you go into more detail about the "people left the most beautiful Catholic churches in droves pre VII comment? Because we certainly know for sure that they left in droves after Vatican II. Including so many priests and nuns.
@@joan8862 You were alive to see people leave God and church in and after the 1960's. The whole world changed, and understand this, what we Catholics saw and read about is most obvious to us. Consider this, the protestant reformation started 500 years ago, they have grown exponentially since then. Their congregations were primarily ex-Catholics fleeing Latin and beautiful old churches to be fed by welcoming, excited, charismatic preachers in very plain mostly unadorned churches.
I take no comfort in knowing that protestant churches are declining too. For the first time in American history our population is less than 50% Christian, of any denomination.
I could write so much more. I hope this answers your question.
Love how these wannabe preachers always have a book case and dim lighting behind them, soft music, and always end up advertising and asking for money 😂
I'm attracted to the enthusiasm you show in your talks. I just recently subscribed from an earlier talk you did on universals. I find these talks useful for examining my own thinking on philosophic and religious ideologies. I can't really call myself dogmatically Catholic but I grew up Catholic in Lutheran Finland taught my American Catholic sisters. I like to explore other religious traditions and the shades of philosophic thought mainly for my interest in relating my readings to my own experiential development. It's a creative relation I look for in my writings. And I feel like the making of me comes out of this combination of secular and divine teachings. I would probably be considered heretical from a Christian orthodox perspective, but even Pope John XXII of the 14th Century was accused of heresy.
Brian, I have a strong doubt to share, which I hope you can resolve.
My catholicity is already cynical, but what I have to confess a little is the strong criticism of the statues/statuettes of Jesus/Crucifixes, of the Saints and of the Virgin, all beautifully decorated and colourful.
What I really admire are statues (whether made of wood, marble or stone) that are much poorer, simpler and humbler.
Do you agree too?
(The icons have no problem)
A video of the persecution of the Teutonic Knights and Brigidine Nuns who remained Catholic?
Beauty replaced by the Conscious Choice for Ugliness.
true, except that the liturgical and ornamentation deconstruction was downstream of philosophy and theology becoming" a source of confusion" (it was not 5:15 "simultaneous"). For the vital stats both sides of the Atlantic started collapsing around 1960, before Vatican II). Indeed, we were well into losing academia and Christendom by then (as had already been charted by the likes of Newman, Dawson, Lewis, Knox, etc).
Yes. Agreed. I think these things were symptoms, within the council, rather than caused by it. I should have been more clear about that.
@@BrianHoldsworth thanks. Of course the deconstruction that you have well outlined was not the harmonious development which the Council asked for.
This, Brian, is when you are at your best. This show and your comments tonight could’ve been heard at a council among Bishops and Cardinals. The subject was rich and vacant of the usual gossip that has caught fire out there and is nothing other than criticism that does the faithful no good at all. But your comments here are quite the opposite. Thank you for your contribution to enlightening us and in a way that is your strength. Welcome back, Good Sir!!!
Thought provoking. Thank you for this.
As a church artist i can say you nailed it to perfection.
Love seeing Brian going on this journey.
Do you have a recommended reading list for converts studying Catholicism?
Yes. Read up the history of the early Church ie the first 9 centuries.
Ratzinger‘s Introduction to Christianity; Aidan Nichols OP, The Splendour of Doctrine. The Catechism of the Catholic Church on Christian Believing,
The Service of Glory. The Catechism of the Catholic Church on Worship, Ethics, Spirituality
Come to the Father. An Invitation to Share the Faith of the Catholic Church
The Church Father‘s are a must read but if you are just starting you need some introduction. Both the Pope Benedict ( Ratzinger) and Nichols point to the need to turn to the fathers so will guide you towards that.
@Brianholdsworth, Nichols Apologia is a very interesting reading, I think you would enjoy it
Look up Tan Classics 12 Book Set
I’m gonna say this in a way that’s gonna keep you humbled. You nailed it. God bless you God watch in guide over you always brother.❤
Absolutely love this video, I just have one criticism, the language of marriage vows are not meant to be poetic, but more canonical, since the validity of that sacrament is the focus. That is why we don't allow couples to write their own vows. They have to be precise to the point.
We need to balance Vatican II with a greater appreciation for the first seven ecumenical councils.
And the Council of Trent 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
All you need is the orthodox faith ☦
As Christians and followers of Lord Jesus we must be established only on holly scripture, where Mighty God has revealed Himself. This is important because if worldly ideas and desires of flesh gain more approval than the Word of God this is compromise and it should be called out as Lord Jesus called out RELIGIOUS Pharisees. God bless!
Matthew 23:25-29:
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean".
That's a really interesting idea. Ornamentation where it shouldn't be, replacing its lack where it used to (reasonably) be.
I don't think a course correction, followed by decades of slow change are an option any longer.
I went to a Novus-Ordo Mass this Palm Sunday, and I cringed through the music and the homily. This type of liturgy is a soul killer, but With God’s help I’m hanging in there. Where else would I go?
Born in 55. Yes, there has been a rupture. Lots of psychology and sociology now. Never hear about staying in a state of grace and reparation to Our Lord. Everything now is 'community'.
I agree that the decoration creating a prayerful environment is extremely important and needs to reflect the parisioners keeping in mind their sensabilities. I say this coming from a multi cultural parish, you really need a commitee, for what is perceived as reverent and welcoming for one group is cold and garden to another. And this is where I believe some things went a bit sideways post Vat ii. With Vatican II it became very clear that mass is not a bunch of people sitting in pews not paying attention (why we had the bells to tell us when to look up), but that mass is literally the Work of the People. I remember pre Vat II as a little girl.Only the most devout paid attention. I've heard several priest speak since about how lonely the celebration of our Lord could feel, as he knew they weren't listening. Few knew Latin and not everyone had the missile with Latin on one side and your language on the other. But this changed rather suddenly, but unfortunately without a lot if guidance on how to implement change. It was basically left up to the bishops and individual pastors how things rolled out, which could be wonderful or disasterous. We still have people recoverinf. The interesting thing about new buildings is that was even inconsistent within a diocese. My diocese had several new churches go up in the sixties. Some with beautiful altars and stained glass windows, some so ultra modern, I enter and question if they are Catholic. So, seriously, I would suggest ito anyone, if your church environment is not as lovely as it should be, go talk to the pastor. Quite often it is just a matter of no one in the office has thought much about it. With diocesan approval, new windows can be put in, even new altars brought in, entire exteriors rearranged. This is OUR church. This is the Work of the People. We need to bring those feelings of love and adoration of our Lord into our sacred space.
☦ The orthodox Church didn't change : the creed, the liturgy, the dogma, the sacraments, the teachings, the sacred art, the sacred architecture. The true Church is in communion with her past.
Kyrie eleison
The OC split from Catholic church and they changed the teachings: divorce and remarriage in church up to 3 times permitted.
Having not read the documents of the councils I was not aware. However it would be good to have seemly ornamentation brought back to the churches and liturgy.
As I'm listening to you speak of ornamentation, and the placement of sacred art, I was struck by the realization that many of the changes that have taken place, especially the taking away of adorientum, the altar placement and the tabernacle being placed off to the side, stripped away the core meaning of the mass. Which is the worship of the one true God. It suddenly made me feel like a robbery victim.
Yes! The essence of the faith has been lost! That's why after attending the TLM for 35 years, I am Eastern Orthodox! I couldn't square the circle any longer!
Amen☦
Brian I could not have stated it better than this! Brilliant video! I am from Europe and i have been trying to support your channel but I can only pay via pay pal or stripe which is not allowed in my country, is there any other way to support?
Seems to me the catholic church in general needs to do a better job of educating its adherents on its practices. I walk into a beautiful church in awa and none of my catholic family or any catholic friends i know can tell me the purpose and the meaning of any of it. Making it feel so disconnected from the life of Christ. IF you gonna give your life to a belief, it seems like you should know more then "well it's what my parents did".
Good Catholic education is the foundation of a Catholic community, but the schools became secular and the priests/deacons are unqualified and overburdened.
I am an outsider, so my Catholic views might want to be taken with a grain of salt. Nevertheless, here it is: I see a massive move from "traditional Catholicism" to various "Orthodox Churches," an almost antagonism toward the Majesterium, Papacy. The apologetics of my Catholic friends, has changed from defending the faith to apologising for the changes in doctrines and leftist direction the Church is taking. What is missing is a focus on Christ and that it is His Church. Like it or not, this Evangelical is praying for the Catholic Church.
We're blessed by your prayers! Keep 'em coming.
May all Christians be one again
If not a Rupture, then at least a Hernia!
My own view is that if we stuck to the old ways we would never have been in this mess in the first place.
I now do things the old way. All I do is go to Mass, do what’s in the catechism and say lots of prayers.
*personally* now, I don’t need to read tons of theology etc etc to try and find God.
He’s there in the old Mass. No explanation needed.
No sophistry needed.
❤
Being born in 1971, I was raised in the immediate aftermath of V2. I remember well the tacky felt banners, the folk masses, the ugly barren architecture of churches built in that era, and the removal of specifically Catholic things, like statuary and the Stations of the Cross. It was driven by the spirit of ecumenism, but all it really accomplished was to strip the beauty from Catholic worship. It made the Mass banal. It Protestantized the church -- and for what? People who already didn't like Catholics still didn't. And I, meanwhile, was left with no idea why I or anyone else should pick Catholicism over any other church. No one even showed me how to pray a rosary: When a nun gave me one as a confirmation gift, I had no idea what to do with it.
I can't speak for others, but I feel like Francis and his fellow modernists fail to understand why the Latin Mass appeals to people. He seems to think people are just being reactionary, but for me it's about the beauty, tradition, and transcendence of something that elevates me and directs me upward into mystery and wonder. It's something that feels uniquely Catholic. I could go to a graying-out and dying-off Novus Ordo church about 10 blocks from my house, but instead I drive 45 minutes to an FSSP parish that's always packed full, mostly with large young families, and always with people who know their faith and take it seriously.
I honestly believe that tradition is, and has to be, the future.
Strange that those who are against Vatican II today didn't even exist back then.
❤
So, you are trying to claim that Catholic Churches no longer have the stations of the Cross?
So, your family had absolutely no idea how to pray the Rosary?
@@georgepierson4920some do not or in some cases the are in a glass case in the corner, and my family didn’t pray the Rosary it wasn’t til I was 37 that I learned what the Rosary was not all church’s are the same, but if we travel back to 1960 they pretty much were with the same Mass in the same language everywhere in the world, with confession offered prior to every Mass while the laity pray the Rosary. If your parish does this how lucky you are because sadly most do not
@@NathanMiller-p3ono one read the Bible on the bookshelf which I regularly dusted
I would like to add that ornamentation in Catholic Architecture closely mirrors the artistic trends of the 18th and 19th Centuries.
For instance, the mission of Music, Art and Architecture of the Baroque and early Classical periods was to transport the viewer to the element of the sublime. This idea came to an apex in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. In music you hear thie florid music of the day (remembef the story of Emperor Franz Joseph remarking, after a Mozart opera performance, "Too many notes, my dear Mozart," to which Mozart responded "Exactly as many as necessary, Your Majesty").
In church art and archetecture, you see intracate carvings, inside and out, colorful Baroque frescos, realism statuary, florid painting resplendent with cherubs and gold leaf, alwways drawing the eye uoward, to heaven, as evidenced by the painted ceilings depicting Biblical characters and scenes. In the late 18th and 19th centuries these artistic trends gave way other movements such as cubism, pointalism and abstract expressionism. Some church architecture we see reflects these movements such as the famous cathedral La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. The type of artistic movement providing today's influence is under debate (are we in neo- Baroque. neo-Classical, or neo-Expressionistic period?). That is why we see both minimalist and ornate modern creations. There is beauty in all, and the simplest, cleanest designs can provide meaningful experiences -- depending on the individual. Attend Mass at the Abbey Church at St. John's Monestary in Minnesota which is transporting in its simplicity. Vive la difference!
Wreakovation!
This has nothing to do with Vatican ii. If you look at churches built in the post-WWII era, you'll find they're made of bricks (or drywall) and are less ornamented. This wasn't a liturgical or aesthetic choice - it is pure bucks. It costs a fortune to build a gothic church, and it has gotten harder and harder to finance that work. That's why so many SSPX chapels are similarly underwhelming (in my city, a rough looking brick building.)
Keep in mind the real estate of the Church being sold off rather than kept in Europe and in certain States in America. And we don't need Gothic Cathedrals perse but to tear down traditional Catholic architecture for ugly and irreverent things should be condemned. Many of which have been documented over the years.
@@paynedv This is true, although I think it is still best understood in terms of resources. Much of that real estate being sold off is being sold because of the movement of the faithful in these places: downtown buildings of venerable stature (older buildings in classical and gothic style) aren't where the still-believing faithful live. Downtown parishes have emptied out, and these expensive to maintain buildings do not have enough parishioners to sustain themselves.
These people have mostly moved to the suburbs, who tend to need new buildings. And building a new building in the classical style tends to beyond the means of most new parishes.
Then how do you explain Wreckovation???
@@igorlopes7589 I basically don't. It is an overstated overhyped phenomenon. Our parish still has altar rails and all of her original statues. The closest parish to ours also has all hers.
@@admiralbob77 How do you explain cathedrals intentionally built on modernist styles? Please go look images of modernist cathedrals and tell me if their appearance communicates their sacredness or not
The book by Michael S. Rose, "Ugly as Sin" explains what happened to the ornamentation within modern Catholic churches. There was a group of Catholic clergy enthralled by the ideas of a Protestant architect, Edward Sovik. He wanted multi-purpose spaces with easily moved furniture and little ornamentation; Sovik did not like traditional church architecture. The National Conference of Bishops (predecessor organization to the USCCB) appointed a committee to make recommendations on architecture. In 1978, this committee put out a document in the name of the NCB but the document was never ratified by the entire conference of bishops (essentially the committee usurped their authority).
A big driver and apparently the primary author of the 1978 document, "Environment and Art in Catholic Worship" was a Fr. Robert Hovda. When you read the several obituaries for Fr. Hovda, you piece together some disturbing incidents about Fr. Hovda: he was a member of a Methodist anti-war group agitating during WWII and converted to Catholicism to stay out of prison. He is quoted as calling the Counter-Reformation "hysteria." His document repeatedly refers to the Mass as a meal and never once makes reference to the Eucharistic Sacrifice. This document is where you find a lot of the criticism of art within a church.
The USCCB has actually formally replaced "Environment and Art in Catholic Worship" in 2000 with a new document that reaffirms the necessity of sacred art, and repeatedly state refers to the Eucharist Sacrifice.
I have come to the conclusion that several "poison pills" were seeded within the Vatican II documents that escaped the notice of most of the attendees to that ecumenical council. For example, Vatican II states that sacred art is necessary but should be "in moderation." That statement was used as a justification to strip the churches of art.
Color me confused.
While I did understand the topic of ornamentation, I didn't get any connection between it and the stated subject of Vatican II. Personally, I have the opinion that the "Mass of the Ages" channel rejects Vatican II and the Novus Ordo mass. So the use of their graphic showing the changes to the Liturgy was confusing to me.
I just didn't get the point you were trying to make here.
I agree that the “wrecktovations” were a terrible transition. A terrible correlation that you can see were the costs for such “updates” and the closing down of parishes due to lack of funds.
Something that I was happy with in 2010 was a return to a more accurate translation of the liturgical texts. There were multiple bishops who criticized the move, which was a shocking claim since several texts took too many liberties to rephrase things beforehand. I do not support the dumbing down of the mass, much less the faith in general.
Vatican II on paper is beautiful but too many powerful people abused those texts to reduce the Church to a sham of an NGO.
If you had read the older stuff first I wonder (knowing what you know now) if you would have converted to Catholicism. I suspect atleast some chance exists that you would not have (but now that you have you are stuck trying to reconcile what you found out after the fact). In short, I suspect some buyers remorse exists deep down in some Converts (since atleast Francis) that many do not want to really admit. On the other hand, I suspect some that had converted have now reconnected back to Protestantism or EO.
The church building is supposed to emotionally take a person out of the material world and into the spiritual world. It is supposed to completely alter a person’s mind-set. Modern church architecture fails abysmally to accomplish that.
The most striking change of vatican2 was the new mass. The writing of this new mass was observed by protestants...that says it all.
Mass of ages was eye opening... especially the liturgy edit scene. I feel like I've always had a very surface level understanding of faith, which misled me as a teen. And what's bringing me back now as an adult is the traditional appeal.
In 2007 we went to our niece's wedding in a fairly new modernist Catholic church. I almost wanted to go outside and look at the sign to make sure it was a Catholic Church. It has all the modernist things in it that make me cringe, a round auditorium like arrangement for seating, a bate altar with the tabernacle down the hall in a locked room, stations of the cross all bunches up together in the back and music that sounds like it was composed for Saturday morning children's TV
I think one has to be careful to simply seek out the ornamentation over the Divine Presence in the Eucharist. Personally minimalism for me in church design has served as a type of “silence for the eyes” as I once heard it put. That simplicity really forces me to go inward and find God within.
Hi Brian, thanks for the show.
I appreciate your concerns. I think what Vatican II did is shifted the literary genre of the documents, to be exhortatory, and imaginative, because the topics contained are much different than those of Trent and Vatican I. Vatican II in contrast aimed at inner renewal of the faith lives of the reader, and did not simply prescribe legal prescriptions with canons and anathemas as Trent and Vatican I did.
We should also stop equating for convenience, and contrary to precision, the wreckovation, and the Spirit of Vatican II. The Spirit and the Letter are both legitimate principles. The Letter is meant to convey the purpose of the letter of the law. Therefore let’s not call something contrary to the actual Spirit of Vatican II, the “Spirit of Vatican II.” It’s tempting, because a spirit is difficult to capture, but really, this is just lazy.
I also think we shouldn’t dismiss in a blanket way whole philosophical systems as incompatible with the faith. Modernism as a philosophy and modernization are both quite different than the heresy of modernism. All philosophical systems which contain some truth can be appropriated by the Catholic Church, or can become channels of Catholic Truth, properly construed within those channels. Anyway, hope you are well.
I have noticed lately the churches have been renovated to back to more sacred and spiritual beauty.
David Wemhoff "John Courtney Murray"
As in "we"- agreed however, the deconstruction of beauty is far more long lasting than its construction. WE will never see it, if it ever returns. We can't make roman concrete- we certainly can't make what the Roman's made with it, as an analogy.
Coptic Orthodoxy is the answer!!!👍
I love the ornamentation in the old churches. I was raised in a byzantine church, you can't get more ornamentation than that. But to me, the most beautiful church was a small chapel in the woods, at an RC summer camp, where I fell in love with Jesus. I still prefer the ornamentation, but you can't tell me it's necessary. I know it's not. Without that minimalist chapel, I would not be here today.
That chapel wasn't minimalist. It was simple. It was still designed to show the transcendent, in a different and affordable way. Not to show that we better get rid of beauty, like the modern churches.
Simple and minimalist could be seen as the same. There are some minimalist churches that are beautiful, but they are the exception. But overall, I do agree with you. Growing up Ukrainian Catholic, we were taught that the inside of the church was meant to symbolize heaven. Hence all the gold and vast hue of colors. Beautiful to behold. Plus when you're a bored kid in Mass, the pictures on the wall have their own ministry, silently teaching the observer. May Jesus forever live in your heart.
We need a restoration of FERVOR.
ON MUSIC. Trads have a difficult time explaining their consternation of the modern liturgical music used in many parishes and adopted by the diocese. Let me try to help in this regard; The core problem with the contemporary music is related fundamentally to its function in the mass. The music is not the center of the mass -the Eucharistic Sacrifice is at the center because God is at the center of our worship. Any sound which turns our head away from our Lord during mass is at best a nuisance (and at worst idolatry). Percussion instruments demand immediate attention to their source and that is primarily why the Church (in theory) did not have them in a mass. Drums, guitars, pianos, and tambourines have existed for centuries, but were not included in the mass for this reason. However, with our new technology, we do have ways to de-percussion instruments as well as create instruments (electronically) with little to no percussion. The FUTURE awaits a generation who will implement a de-percussioned music (sacred music) for a new millennia.
I have my issues with the quality of modern music. However, it's not a distraction to pull your attention--it's part of the liturgy! It's supposed to elevate. I think you're splitting hairs with the percussion thing. As long as they aren't drowning out the voices, these instruments and the players who are prayerfully adding their talents to the Mass have a place.
@@musicmama2864 Have you ever watched a movie? The music is there to accentuate not to divert. Even percussion is only used to show disruption. Notice that odd tones are used to show disharmony. By the way drums are not modern instruments. Neither are tambourines, nor cymbals... there is a reason they never used them in the liturgy.
@@FromAcrossTheDesertI am well aware of the history of percussion instruments. Making music is praying twice --paraphrased from St. Augustine. The Mass is not a movie. The music is PART of the liturgy, and not an accent to it. Composers for centuries have composed masses with different instrumentation. The Mozart Requiem has timpani in it, and that's found with a quick search. There are others. And none of this discussion touches upon Mass music in various African and Latin American countries, where music is culturally appropriate and likely different from in the west.
@@musicmama2864 You know I really like that movie "Sister Act". They have no drums, nor tambourines, nor timpani. However beautiful and harmonious the music, there is something deeply wrong about this final scene. Can you tell me what is wrong? ruclips.net/video/nkFz6I1Lh2g/видео.htmlsi=8HDV0ogRs-8Irfs5
@@FromAcrossTheDesertI'm not taking your bait. First of all, they are not playing/singing at Mass. They are standing in front of an altar singing music not written for the Liturgy. In fact, it is the beginning of the music that they fancified to seem all "holy" that I have a problem with. Contemporary Catholic music has its faults, but it is designed to express liturgical themes. Percussion/modern amped instruments have nothing to do with it.
Interested EO here & musician as well as in minor orders. I found this contrast to be interesting, apt, & helpful. Thanks.
Thanks for watching!
8:00 this, yes yes yes yes yes yes. 💯
I believe you’ve hit the nail on the head. There seems to have been a strong conviction that western Christendom was going to reunify. Using imprecise, ornamental language was, in part, to help Christians like the Lutherans and Anglicans have an easier time retaining some of their beliefs.
But truth leads to unity. Truth must be established first, not softened to create the appearance of unity.
👆 “Truth must be established first.” THEN Unity is possible.
Modernists don’t like beauty in the liturgy. William Buckley pointed out something that I as a lector have long observed. that the American translation of the Bible is the worst of all the recent modern translations.
I love both ornamental old churches and the minimalist ones as well in different times of my life. Depends of what I am going through.
It’s not about you
If by minimalist you mean some bahaus like Church then rethink that please. The Sacred must be set appart from the mundane visually, only this can signify that the Sacred is what is set appart for the highest purpose
The reason why you can say this without understanding the why, it's a huge problem... Christ is always in kenosis, he is always self emptying himself in order for humanity to be lifted up, so that God can shine brighter, so he ends up with the highest version of kenosis, giving his whole life on a cross, being ripped appart from his garments, and from his beauty, so that God can restore the world, the Church is always sacrificing herself, because she is the mistical body of Christ. An orthodox will say that what is happening now is expected since the "Romans" (as they call us) went away from orthodoxy in respect to images and proper theological language, etc. So they will argue that you haven't gone far enough to see how our church went astray. But their issue is the same, they don't understand the Church as a sacrificial Church, as a mystical living, dying and resurrecting church. And yeah, there was a sacrifice in Vatican 2 and we should mourn and cry for it, but we should know better, that God resurrects his Church mystically over and over again. And there was a sacrifice in the renaissance went medieval iconography was dispensed with, yet our good Lord resurrected his Church again after that sacrifice.
"Protestant Revolution"
Come on man, do better.
Popes have to look at everything in the Church globally. I find often America and Canadian Catholics seem to ignore all the other rites in the Church and over stress the western Roman rite. And attitudes. +
That's because 95+% of Catholics are Western Rite...
Is this really a surprise when most Catholics are Latin Rite in general and almost entirely evangelized by Latins in the New World for centuries?
The Roman Rite is global. I attended a Maronite Mass a few weeks ago. It was very nice. It is not celebrated everywhere, but generally where Arabic speaking communities are. This is true for most Rites.
But he is speaking of theology here. How is this not universal?
Popes are also Patriarchs of the Western Church. Also, we don't diminish the other Rites, we just focus on our own liturgical traditions, as anyone should. Easterners shouldn't be thinking about the Roman Rite at the same frequency they think about their own Rite, same for us.
Do you think byzantine catholics should care for the Roman Rite as much as they care for their own Rite? Of course not! One should think about his own first
Read Romano Amerio and David Wemhoff.
illiteracy played a huge role in the ornamentation of the old church. i mean from the get go. when people began to be educated to be able to read the bible itself, the ornamentation took a smaller and smaller role. witness the down dressing of the protestant churches. when the bibile was put into the vernacular, people did not need fancy glass pictures in the window and statues etc and their liturgy dropped down in ornamentation. the reformation was the paring down of the ornamentation. but people were offended when the roman catholic church went to the vernacular to become more transparent and available to even the illiterate. seeing god in the architecture and art was a work in teaching via non literate societies. appropriate time and place for the decor is essential. to not be a distraction.
is dignity equivalent to ornamentation? don't think so
The spirit of the schismatic is still at work.
??? So to say the abandonment of ornamentation in Liturgy and Sacred Art was bad is schismatic? To say that magisterial documents should be clear definitions imposing a specific meaning insteaf of looking like devotionals is schismatic?
On the second point I would like to remember you how Fiducia never explicitly said the homosexual couple should make a commitment to separate before receiving the blessing. This is the problem, this new language used in magisterial documents is anything but clear
During Tenebrae this year I was swept up in the thought that "This is too much". The service went on, and on, and on, and the Latin chant went on, and on, and on... Yet in the midst of it all I also lamented the liturgical dwarfism, minimalist bean-counter aesthetic, and anthropocentricity of this present era. In the end the last chant ended and we went our separate ways, but for a brief couple of hours we were somehow knit together and woven into a much larger, eternal, and glorious tapestry, richly ornamented and beautiful.
I think homiletics is the struggle to instill inspiring beauty into what can otherwise be a dry concise theological lecture, to simultaneously inform and inspire. It is an art few clergy seem to have the gift of it seems.
5:40 Other councils were clarifications to Church doctrine (the what), but Vatican II was a pastoral council (the HOW). People seem to think everything was just going hunky dory prior to Vatican II, but the real information about the Church concluded that the flock had become, in part, a people who were for the most part only culturally connected to the Church. Even the devout were disconnected from the liturgy (praying the Rosary during Mass). Vatican II, which is largely unrealized, aimed at reinvigorating the laity into a role which they were desperately being called -Evangelization. In order to accomplish this task the Pastoral Church required their sheep to "participate" in the mass (actualize), to become properly devout, and to go out and Christify the world.
You have no clue what the earlier fathers and popes meant by true participation. You have just enough information to be dangerous to the church. Stop with your own interpretation. You really have very little understanding of what the Mass really is.
Their de facto means to achieve that were innefective and destroyed a more than a millenium worth of traditions for nothing. The Spirit of the Council has been a disaster
balanced and well said!
Who is the author of confusion and who/what is distributing it?
God bless and guide us all.
SERVIMUS NON REGIS SED IESUS CRISTUS
Diabolos originally meaning to scatter, says it all really. Confusion in this magnitude is the work of the devil.
Disagree with the Latin. Servimvs Regis, Iesvs Christvs
@Luke-ms5hn SERVIMUS NON REGIS SED IESUS CRISTUS ( we serve no king but Jesus Christ ) - old (as in hundreds of years) family motto
Welcome to the glad trad.
Theology,Doctrine,Sacred Scripture,
Philosophy,Divinity,Etc. of the
Catholic Church,I would say
has changed over the years.
Vatican 11 played a great part
over the last sixty years.There
are many Issues and Challenges
in the Church today that need
sorting out.If I was the Pope,I
would call Vatican 111 to sort
everything out.❤️.
The of role of icons has been debated for many years in the Eastern and Western Church. Most of the ebb and flow on the subject predates Vatican II by centuries. Why do you think modernism and classicism are in conflict? In my opinion, both are beautiful, reflections of the human experience, and a vision of the Devine. They’re just different, like when Romanesque was replaced by Gothic, etc.
Sad. A channel devoted to murmerers. Why do you people act like you are not responsible for your churches?
All you have to do is the contracting and financing. Duh. Our parish built a new church about ten years ago and by any standard it is gorgeous. We even got our stained glass windows from a defunct Catholic church, apparently there is a good supply. Our older building is still used as a hall for receptions and other activities. We began saving a few years before construction started and had mass in the gymnasium during construction. It was paid off about 5 years after completion.
But you would rather murmer.
How many of the murmerers even volunteer to maintain their current church buildings?
I’d like to be charitable about it but your murmuring is properly placed against your own dereliction of responsibility.
Art, beauty, reverence - essential fuels of faith. However, the Universal Church has an obligation to teach all cultures, all people, all pilgrims. Christ and his initial followers were not European, nor were they frightened of change or reason. What relevance can our children (as well as global children) find in the “Infant of Prague”, a pale Baby Jesus sending out hand signals, a crucifix mounted everywhere to the point of oblivion? Winged angels, laced priests, unbalanced creeping church remodels that destroy any sense of ascetics are well intentioned but have little appeal to populations assaulted with the grandiose expectations of hyper culture. True worship should be housed in transcendent beauty reflecting Truth, Courage, Homage, and Christ Universal.
Modern man has lost its spirit thus its taste for the Sacred.
As the devil makes strides and human conscience recedes, humankind loses its way to God.
The fruit of "apparent knowledge" still tempts us and we keep falling for it.
Had we learned anything and, most importantly, _transmitted that knowledge to future generations,_ the devil would've had no chance by now.
But, did we do that?
NO.
Ergo where and how we are now.
It's saddening to see churches that feel like buildings from the USSR or ones with unrecognizable abstract art. How is it that the Russians preserved their glorious beauty of their churches even under oppression but we just did the opposite being so "Free"?
Thank you from Holy Russia
@@robertjarman4261 You're welcome from Holy USA
I miss the cathedral of my youth. It was beautiful, strong, and ancient. My suburban Catholic church is like a giant concrete wated tank with windows and a stage. I miss the alter rail, alter boys, patens, kneeling to take the host on the tongue, organ backed hymns etc etc
I live in city where I couldn’t find any Church that have rich decoration teaching faith…most of them white paint 😔. No Mystery .
I'd recommend 'The Sound of the Liturgy' by Rev Cally Hammond. She's an Anglican chaplain, so the examples are mostly Anglican, but it's really illuminating.
Read Dostoyevsky.
Architectural beauty, ornamentation, though of help, is not as important as the piety of the spirit, or its wholesomeness. It is important whenever one prays to fix our attention of the beauty of God and his creation in our spirits such that we can pray, and be heard while at home, walking, sitting at work, in the company of others, hourly, daily. No church required.
Also working in the construction industry, I can imagine the training and mentoring to building such churches, along with people who literally have endless amount of junk they can buy at a touch of a button, the financial hurdles must be huge. I’m in a parish that has been struggling to build a church over a decade, and the pastor is asking people if they want to donate more money and get the nice door handles, or will just make due with the builder spec handles.
And TBH, I have to question my own choices of where my money goes…
Thanks a lot Brian for all that you are doing for the Catholic Church. I'm a Franciscan Capuchin Friar from Malta (Europe) and would really love to know your thoughts and reflections on consecrated life. Would you be willing to do a video about this? Thankyou and may God bless you!
Semi-related; Are you familiar with Catholic poet and former. Rational Art Foundation President Dana Gioia? He advocates for the return of true beauty and how critical poetry is to the faith yet modern faithful overlook this