Loyalists: Focused on team work and tactical superiority Chaos: Focused on personal honor/power, all else are mere stepping stones. Or Tzeentch just interferes because he probably knows if humanity goes, his favorite playthings go too since his biggest joy is pulling the rug out from acquaintances and foes alike. Chaos may have individual power, but there will always be more stacked against them.
Also chaos:"All according to the plan." Like in the book space marines apocalypse even before dying the Word Bearer still laughed maniacally talking about the "secret is out" and the imperial fists primaris marine struggled to understand wtf he was talking about. Only chaos can have an entire force wiped out and still claim it's a win because their scheme is too convoluted.
Logistics...logistics win wars. The forces of Chaos are clearly lacking in that. I mean look at the Death Guards invasion of Tau space. Ya for the Tau it was a horror show at first but once they started effectively fighting back they stomped them back to the warp.
I agree, Robute. Logistics win. Rituals and sacrifice can't beat rivets and ceramite. Also the Tau are completely cooked and don't even know it, am looking forward to The Second Rise of Men of Iron. Will be fun to say told ya so.
@@lthudgins Ultramar: Center of a micro empire that not only tries its best to uplift a species, does this while serving as a backbone for a military force. Medrengard: Daemonculaba, simple as. Efficiency, while important to logistics, is not the same.
They can create anything they want from the warp, guns, armor, food, teddy bears, toilet paper, ammunition, and all war machines both mechanical and democratic. All dropped off right above the planet, if it’s a logistical war then Chaos wins.
Logistics and cohesion win wars. Chaos Space Marines maybe stronger on an individual level compared to Loyalist Space Marines. But your average Chaos Warband is a lot less cohesive and lack the Logistics to replenish their loses like the Loyalist Chapters. That and Loyalist Chapters tend to be better equipped- going back to their better logistics. Loyalist Chapters have the industrial backing needed to make and repair their gear better, whilst Chaos Warbands need to make due with either outdated or stolen wargear.
@eyohboy455 Lack of experience. At least when Primaris Marines were first introduced to the Imperium. In spite of being superior to their Firstborn counterparts, they had a tendency to die a lot more frequently since most early Primaris Marines were fresh-faced recruits who barely had any combat experience before their augmentations. This problem was something that solved itself as they started to become more commonplace in the following 100+ years. From Firstborn Veterans like Calgar or Titus going through the Primaris Rubricon, many of the original Primaris Marines that survived the Indomitus Crusade managing to adapt and overcome the issues and mistakes that caused them to suffer from their earlier high casualty rates, to the fact that Primaris Marines pretty much began to replace their original counterparts in the future generations of newer recruits since a vast majority of Loyalist Chapters were given access to the technology needed to make them.
@@MR.LMR1996 good to know but i was asking for a comparison against CSM. Primaris might be all that, but what good are they if they still lose to a CSM and are also in general more *thunder warrior* like? This feels like GW leveling the planefield of CSM more than upgrading SM dont you think?
@@eyohboy455 I'd say the lack of experience still holds up in the earlier generations of Primaris. Your average Chaos Space Marine is a life-long Veteran who can trace their routes all the way back to the Great Crusade itself. You can only plant so many augmentations into a brand new Super Soldier, but for warriors like Space Marines - both Loyalist and Traitor alike - experience will always play a massive wild card in the most experienced soldier's favor. Again, this lack of experience the earlier Primaris Marines had solved itself as time went on after their introduction. Just like how these experience problems that the very first Space Marines had during the final years of the Unification Wars solved itself.
Chaos Marines are not advancing technologically. I agree neither was the Imperium till the Primaris were created. Also I totally agree with how powerful some Thousand Sons sorcerers are. Their feats are uncanny and anyone beating them in battle is simply bad writing. The only ones who stand a chance are Grey Knights that also only to a degree. Average Thousand Son sorcerers are probably as strong as a Chief Librarian of any CHapter with the exception of Mephiston.
*Brother let me tell you a joke there was ones 2 traitor space marines walking across a world when they spotted in the distance a pair of loyalest Astartes so the 2 traitors fled as the 2 loyalist gave pursuit.* *Will they were running 1 of the traitors said to the other we are armed with superior war gear of ancient provenance, we have millennia more combat experience then they & we are far mightier empowered as we are with many dread gifts of Chaos, so why are WE running from THEM?, why do we not slay them?* *The other traitor looked him in the eyes with fear on his face & replied......Because, THEY, are, TOGETHER!!* *Those Who betray others, betray only themselves!* *=][=*
This sounds exactly like a joke Rylanor would ponderously bellow to his virus bomb companion that he has named Wilsonius as he awaits Fulgrim. I kneel to your humors.
I always figured there were 2 factors at play 1) loyalist sm tend to be true brothers who will die for each other, for csm however death means eternal damnation and failure so it promotes a dog eat dog individualistic attitude. Of course not all loyalists are brotherly (plenty of chapters certainly aint lmao) but they at least dont have that sort of pressure where dying means failure and being a soul snack, loyalist sm will typically praise a brother who gave his life in service for the chapter rather then lol that he died because he was weak. 2) Consistancy: loyalists have reliable gear with reliable supply lines, brothers are trained to fight together and entire chapter is made to function smoothly. Chaos warbands have worst logistics, their guns might decide to grow an extra arm or something and the devastator you have relied on to cover your back for the past century is now full of delusions of grandeur and growing an obsession for skinning people alive mid combat whenever you raid planets so isnt as reliable as he used to be. Meanwhile your other buddy shares his body with a daemon of khorne so gl hf telling him to stay in a corner and overwatch for hours on end.
Wdym? Fulgrim still seems like a nice guy, he even made a painting of himself. That’s how much spare time he has to committing in arts. I sure do like him very much, I really hope his soul isnt lost to a demon or something like Angron did.
@@Tiku- And he was such a good bro to Manus he cloned him HUNDREDS of times after he was tragically murdered just to make sure he got his bro back perfectly I mean it's admittedly still a work in progress, but that's brotherly love if ever I heard about it.
On the face of it, Chaos Space Marines have massive advantages (can summon Daemon allies, "gifts" of the Chaos Gods etc. But to quote ADB who has written multiple novels about Chaos Space Marines, they are impoverished. Chaos Space Marine's biggest weakness is their inability to easily produce new Space Marines. Even with the Imperium's slow, seemingly inevitable demise, the Imperium still has enormous resources to call upon. Chaos doesn't have that. They're forced to rely on the Dark Mechanicus, so they have to be "friendly" with the Chaos forge worlds. Realistically... Legions or Warbands like the World Eaters shouldn't even exist in 40k.
The game 40k Gladius does a really good job showing the strengths of both sides. The SMs get wide army buffs through doctrines and tactics they can activate. CSMs can get blessings and mutations that increases their power, but each individual unit has to kill enemies for a random chance of getting a boon. A CSM unit with a mark, icon and all boons are unstoppable murder machines (a fully blessed Chaos Lord can solo a titan), but getting them there takes a lot of effort and resources. Where as the SM powers are much more reliable and consistent, given to all units that the doctrines affect.
its down to the fact that CSM are "villains" in stories and whatnot, they are something to over come. Loyalist are given "plot armour" so that they win, if it came down to just a battle CSM would win, considering the blessings the dark gods give their followers. Which is why you see in the books that chaos wins off screen. why would black library simply build up a character only to kill them right away. Like the daemon primarchs, they should be insanely powerful, but yet their loyalist brothers always some how defeat them, the daemon primarch can just come back while the loyalists couldn't, I would expect Angron to completely destroy the lion now, but I knew even without reading the book when the lion returns he would win because why would u kill off an important character as soon as they return.
while, plot armour Is a thing. It does make sense why a lot of the victories for the loyalists against chaos. I mean look at the battle of calth in know no fear. The word bearers had the ultramarines dead to rights, but the reason why they're lost was because of their own arrogance and instead of fighting to win, they will fighting ito sacrifice. Also, chaos don't make for the most stable recruitment in resupply.
There are plenty of characters that have been built up, then killed off. If i named any of them, you would say that it doesnt really count because that character wasnt around for long enough.
@ironmangx-ro8mt To be fair, the Battle of Calth was explicitly stated to have been essentially a suicide charge, of the most unstable elements of the Word Bearers legion that would later become a liability in any Great War. In exchange, around 10,000 Word Bearers crippled the largest legion of all, as well as destroying most of their void fleet, as well as a massive portion of Ultramar’s Solar Auxilia, Titan Legions, and other allies. True, they ultimately ended up getting wiped out, but even then, the war beneath Calth ended up occupying even more Ultramarines for years after tha battle. Especially good considering that even Lorgar didn’t expect them to do so well, and he was even surprised to hear that fucking Kor Phaeron actually got a chance to kill his brother Roboute. Pretty good for the worst of the legion.
For 10 millenias, chaos, and therefore, chaos marines lost. To the imperial guard and the pdf. And the biggest treats, outside of plot armor, are traitorous guards and pdf. More than a decade ago, GW organized a campaign in its stores, to decide the fate of a dark crusade. I was there with my Blood Angels. We, loyalists, wiped the floor with them. It was not even funny. Not even a match. It was like fighting puppies with shotguns. GW was not happy and created the 13th dark crusade BS.
If I recall correctly, the 13th Dark Crusade was based on GW's campaign (on/around Cadia). The overall result was a ground victory for the Loyalists, and a Chaos victory for those in space (the result of which were based on games of Battlefleet Gothica). That's part of the reason that Chaos "won" the space war by resorting to desperate methods and ramming the whole planet with the Black Fortress.
A lot of them are "Veterans of the Long War" or "Slave Wars" later on. They are on average stronger because they are more experienced than loyalist astartes but because they are Chaos they are ofcourse chaotic disorganized. Loyalist Marines are more disciplined and have access to more supplies unlike Chaos Space Marines Warbands which have to scavenge for most of supplies or are doing everything possible to keep their machines operational. They are quite literally armed in weapons they had during the horus heresy. (Which are warbands and not some organized legions. Legions like Black Legion or Word Bearers are rarity among the archtraitor forces). Loyalist forcess also on average have better command structure that is capable of commanding forcess. Both In Astartes and in the Guard or PDF. While Chaos equivalents are under the command of different overlords that have to keep check on not only their loyalist or xenos enemies but also keep an eyes on their underlings. It is true both in Chaos Space Marines warbands and traitor guard but on average Traitor Guard do have much more enduring military command structure.
This depends on legions and forces. Chaos Space Marines do control thousands of daemon worlds within the Eye of Terror. They have untold hordes of human soldiers and servants as well. They create their own war machines called daemon engines which can function in a variety of ways, even outmatching loyalists vehicles. They have entire forge worlds where guns and tanks are made. Iron Warriors especially have many of these. Some legions are still united, tactical and strong. Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Death Guard, the Black Legion, all function like legions of the old days. World Eaters, Emperors Children, Night Lords etc, are the more broken and wild ones. Don’t aspire to much but, they raid for fun, supplies and for their gods. And in huge campaigns their old legions may reunite (like the Crusade of Fire), so they bring a staggering number of Astartes that the Imperium just can’t in any one warzone, and god knows how many psychotic human soldiers. But often they fight for the more intact legions like Black Legion. Do they have the resources of the Imperium and loyalist? No. Does that mean they should still be losing as often as they do? Absolutely not. The Imperium is the late Roman Empire. They are attacked on all sides so have to pump resources against many enemies. You can imagine chaos space marines as the Goths, while Necrons are like the Persians, and so on. The goths didn’t have the resources or manpower, or unity of try Roman army, and had more men eager for personal glory. But they sacked Rome. It’s the same with Chaos Marines, they are not push overs, and it is very often plot armour saving the Imperium. Also I find the mention of the Night Lords novels interesting because I think it goes against your point. The members of Talos’ warband were very cohesive and united(on the field of battle). I haven’t read the books in a long time but didn’t they bring down a titan(the Word Bearers warband in their omnibus did, rather easily with cunning tactics). Either way they got out of that situation safely. They defeated loyalist marines, fought with Red Corsairs cohesively and to win their battle and got out alive. And they’re from the more pirate/wild side of CSM.
Short answer: bad writing. Long answer: most books are written from the Loyalist perspective. The writer wants their main characters to look awesome and forget that villains are only as threatening as shown. See the problem of the Avatar of Kaine. Something that should be able to solo entire chapters getting defeated routinely in one-vs-one.
Tbh it seems the great crusade had a lot of kids just forced into it liek nassir amit who was a confirmed mutant and now they have a lot more barriers to entry also considering the 1000 battle brother cap
Personally, I really wish the writers would introduce more powerful relics that loyalists could use against their chaos counterparts. I hate the fact that chaos space marines are portrayed as having so much power without any real exploitable weaknesses.
@dubstepXpower Yeah, but in most of the novels I've been listening to lately, they always seem to do their losing off screen. On screen, they usually achieve their objectives.
But that is because chaos is the definition of a twin bladed sword. Yeah, those pacts and boons make you immensely powerful but also makes one very easily distracted and manipulated, sometimes horribly so as with fleshchange. It's real easy to overlook the Krieger walking up to you with that shovel in his hands when you are too lost in the sauce laughing and dancing your god's war song because you are a flower in the garden of your beauty's creator, or some prosaic easily shoveled-to-death hogwash.
Bro. Chaos blessed relics is all heretics have because their wargear is still heresy era stuff for the most part while loyalists got Primaris upgrades as well as new goodies all the time. Chaos doesn't have many of the same vehicles. They don't even have apothecaries on the tabletop. And you want to have equality when it comes to relics, even though they literally make pacts with dark gods? Come on man xD
Chaos is pure mutated strength and power but the loyalists have holy fervor while many chaos space marines joined because of gluttony of power for quick and easy while loyalists were still trained to know no fear and are supported by the huge imperium
I think there are several reasons. First off all, other than luna wolves, it is the "weaker legions " that turned traitor. Not to mention other than horus and magnus the red, it is also the weaker primarchs that got corrupted. Next they are not really advancing in tech.. have lesser supplies. Not to mention they have no access to the primaris. There are more reasons lower quality of geneseed, lower quality recruits, training, bad logistics and etc. But boy tho they have thicc plot armor. SM chapters that specialize in sm to sm combat like minotaurs, space wolves, space sharks, Blood angels and the strongest chapter of all, the GREY KNIGHTS will absolutely body chaos space marines. How the traitors are still thriving is beyond me.
I have yet to see in the games chaos marines being depicted powerful of competent. Even if they are in the lore. In 40K Boltgun, the Black Legion seemed like slow idiots standing around & waiting to get shot. In Space Marine 2, The Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons......... seem like slow idiots standing around & waiting to get shot.
@@samuelevander9823well, like said in the video. They’re essentially automatons with no free will. With the exception of the sorcerers. Also Space Marines are completely shown as lore accurate either in game either. Other wise we’d be running super fast.
@@samuelevander9823 40000%, Black Legion portrayal in Boltgun is a disgrace to faction even if it's dictated by game's mechanic. Black Legion terminators should've been "Arch-viles" of Boltgun, not "Pinkies".
@@somerandominternetdweller I'd argue that in Boltgun projectiles are flying slowly enough for you to notice. That's because game adjusts its timeflow to human perception.
Those loyalists chapters you’ve hyped up still going to lose against Chaos because they are not actually better. The main characters always win, if you read a Chaos novel they will slaughter the loyalists like pigs.
Meanwhile, the Iron Warriors have Medrengard where they build their daemon engines, breed slaves, keep their equipment, and lie in wait, paired with the Dark Mechanicum. They stay on par with the Space Marines because they often disregard the blessings of the dark gods.
The way I take it, individually they are stronger, especially the old guard thats been around since the day of the Horus Heresy, those are extremely experienced fighter... And thats before factoring in the possible beneficial mutations they have. But in a group they are weaker as they are individualistic and more selfish, leading to lesser cohesion and a weaker teamwork than loyalists.
It always seemed like a plot hole to me that in theory they should be much stronger than a normal space marine since they have a lot of extra power, but in practice they are always equal. Now we can say that it is solved by all loyal marines being primaris
I think they should make it individually they should be stronger but have worse off when working as a team as in they care only for themselves. So loyalist marines should be individually weaker but their units have rules that allow them to synergies and have better support abilities, while Chaos marines rules are more for buffing an individuals but have poor support abilities for their units.
SMs are good at everything but perfect at nothing. CSM feel like minmaxed version of SM - they don't have quite a few things that make SM good in exchange for being able to be great at something. Chaos marks really make then more specialized instead of generalistic.
Chaos marines pros: first generation gene seed, gifts of the dark gods Cons: selection process in the great crusade was basically 'can swing a sword, is not a mutant'. Poor organisation Imperial marines cons: gene seed and technology have degraded over time Pros: each one is a literal warrior king. Far higher moral fibre than chaos counterparts
0:30 "It isn't just plot armor that allows the loyalist astartes to defeat their chaos rivals in more engagements than one can count." You're right, it's imperial propaganda that paints it so.
A house divided cannot stand. You have to have the trust of a community to work well, but if you are always executing anyone that displeases you, you have more enemies within your ranks and no support.
I'm questioning why so many people are handwaving loyalists winning as "plot armour" when half of the shit Chaos legions can do is handwaved as "warp magic" and "boons of the Chaos gods" 🙄
Stronger because they're actually more expendable. To actually raise a chaos champion worthwhile of anything, you might need a century or 2. Primaris marines can fill the gap very quickly
iron warriors are in contrast to other chaos marines well organized. have their own forge worlds and do logistics extremely well. iron within iron without.
There us a difference to "more powerfull" or "more stronger". In case of strength i say that the Chaos Astartes Legions are stronger because the Mutation of the Warps, Veterans and Tech of all Kinds of the Great Crusade and more early that is more used than in the Empire and the Thing that they keep/try to maintain the old numbers of Legion Strengths ot set this as Targets for its Power that such a force deliver... the the Astral Claws that transform later to the Red Corsairs. But such Archivments are Needels in the Warp and even so rarley used efficent and not, well, chaotic. This brings me to the Loyalist... they may lack the Strentgh that the Chaos Marines *could* have but this is one of the few critical puonts they have. They are more powerfull because they have a stable and efficient way to got everything they need, in short a working Logistic chain, as well stable Geneseed. They lack of 10.000 Years old Veterans(Shoutout to Bjorn the Fellhanded. Vylka Fenrika hunts the Stars!) but has the better Organization and knowledge of 10000 Years of War. All in all: Chaos Marines are stronger but less powerfull.
What people forgets is that everyone (besides a few favorites or actually immortal characters) is cannon fodder, for no matter how strong armies are the weaponry is sbove them. The book like to make everything more dramatic but the reslity of war stays the same the weapon who hit first or harder win.
Hello brothers new to the franchise i am not interested in the minis and the board games just the lore So please guide me as to where to start reading and if there are any audio books available as i dont like reading much(please advice me on where to read like the website app etc and the books itself ) Thanks GLORY TO THE GOD EMPEROR
That's a clickbait if i ever read one. Once a Marine fall to chaos, the very standards they were once accustomed to as "still mortal" are litteraly warped beyond recognition and they no longer abide by the same conception of "victory" or "defeat" as loyalists do. I mean, think of it like the speedrunners from Ocarina of time (or any speedrunners in general.) They've already played the game, knows it inside and out and just... don't care about playing it the regular way and just decide to do completely random shit to spice the experience (like making a playthrough while setting a coockoo on fire all the way to Ganondorf. I'm not kidding, by the way.) Ergo, they go from "necessity" and "following the script" to "fuck it : we ball" all the way through. And suprisingly ? Despite doing random shit that doesn't make sense for the viewer (like prepping a bomb with a timed shield defence to just back slide with incredible speed and zero friction) actually end up speeding the whole thing FASTER than regular playthrough. What i'm trying to say is that Chaos is kind of the same : it BSOLUTELY doesn't make sense from a "regular" point of view. But from Chaos' perspective, anything it does is for the sake of Chaos. Nothing else. It makes zero sense to us. But to them, it's simply couldn't work any other way.
Mechanicum can legit do what they want. Everything the mechanicus has once its gone its gone due mars being full of nepobabies. I mean where ya figs iron warriors and the black legion get all their tillary. Really just a resource problem. Plus 3 legions probs 2 or 3 in terms of sticking with their own legion. Plus zerg them world eaters are pretty good at boarding actions.
Well chaos marines often fight for themself, and will backstab anyone else, or only enjoy murder etc. They dont fight for an collective purpose or others. So they will always lose. Just hope they lose even harder soon
Most realistic answer would honestly be: They get more powerful if they stay alive. But phisically rotting and stagnating since release of primaris matines and Guillimans return. You can call his return and new crusade as ending age of stagnation. Now of course they are still rotting empire but they proved they can still carry Emperors legacy. Double thing are xenos like orks or tyranids. If they never stood let's say orks can be used as payed soldiers since some of those exist and force majority of orks at least out of imperium while registering amount of ork spore spread, for tyranids just get i dunno. Hivemind gets burned by Emperor like how Nurgles garden happened? Chaos as only big faction, yeah they ARE smallest in number not including warp daemons. Let's say Thousand Sons? What will they do once imperium concentrate to extinguish all bigger Chaos warbands? Nothing. Bombarding their main planets, sending twice size numbers of operations without problem. I must admit thing that Chaos is still active: They not only one serious issue within or outside Impuerium.
Because the writers are hacks. 1 to 1, chaos marines should be objectively stronger. Considerably so. The issue should be how much harder it is for then to get new recruits. But GW threw their original lore in the trash a decade before I started reading it.
Loyalists are regimented to near-perfection in all relevant aspects: Equipment, doctrine, leadership, logistics etc. Rarely will any of these falter enough to bring down the entire whole alongside it, nevermind see corruption (of the monetary and egoistic variety) be impactful enough to lower effectiveness (there aren't many cases of the badab wars). Traitors meanwhile are completely unorganized in comparison. Some warbands and legionnaires thought during the great crusade and still kept their [equipment, doctrine, leadership, logistics etc.] effective, however would still, at best, be behind the loyalists due to working on a smaller scale. Meanwhile other warbands have basically abandoned all necessary 'traditions' so to speak that created and kept the legionnaire astartes working because they have so little discipline that they can only be made to fight loyalists on threat of death or personal gain from the chaos gods. To say: Traitor warbands range massively in effectiveness, yet in practice are always smaller than loyalist forces, and hence even if you have an effective traitor warband, unless it is only going to engage is guerilla warfare, it will need to work with other, potentially less effective warbands inorder to fight loyalists head on. Loyalists very much have the upper hand, and traitors HAVE to throw warp nonsense at them inorder to secure any wins only to in progress sacrifice equipment they likely cannot recreate.
If it's tzeentch I think the normal Astartes are stronger because they fall back on magic to much. If it's Slaanesh idk Grey Soldiers idk don't at me, I don't wan't no smoke. Nurgle hasn't found a way to defend his worshipers from from Fight Club soap. And as for KORNE uh yea they definitely are stronger. Ps FOR KHORNE
Chaos isnt also inherently stronger than imperium. Chaos gods like to paint that picture but every time strong loyalist psyker shows up or better yet emperor shows up the daemons run scared. The chaos gods lie to their worshippers all the time. Tzeentch tells his worshippers that he controls fate yet none of his schemes succeed. Nurgle claims he is a loving grandfather yet treats you less than nothing if you show no value. Khorne claims to be war incarnate but Imperium feeds the emperor more despite fighting eternal war. Slaneesh boasts emotion itself but is nothing but perversion. Together they claim to be the truth yet all they do is lie. The traitor marines who are mentally destroyed to be lesser legitimately believe that superhuman gifts make them superior. Yet mortal men with humble lasguns have held them back for 10,000 years.
It's really quite simple. Modern Loyalist firstborn use mark 7&8 generally and have small selections of marks 3-6 and those armors are objectively superior same could be said of plasma technology far more reliable. Now pair that with the "gifts of chaos" and the experience of the long war. Most Astares circa M42 doesn't have a whole lot of experience in Marine vs Marine combat and chaos Astares have that in spades. Now as to how they are weaker Chaos gives you power, but takes away focus and cohesion which is vital to winning wars. Chaos by it's very nature is contradictory giving you raw power in exchange for tactical awareness. Individual strength wins fights, but logistics wins wars.
Biggest issue, you think a khorne worshipper has any brain cells rolling around? I doubt it, only ones who do are snitch and sexy queen and space marines of the snitch are dust and sexy queen is pretty much a joke of a space marines factions Noise marines are pretty useless when the house has like 3 different layers of armor which realistically go by that to viberate it you need 3 frequencies So pretty damn she’s only one that can actually form supplies. snitch doesn’t have use for supply lines when only your men are made of dust Nurgle right, um no I don’t care that the lore says the pleague god made a virus that destroy metal that’s completely stupid. But I guess he could issue is unlike queen of lust Of her followers can remain fully human and fully functioning
There are only few veterans of the Horus Heresy left. A lot of them are just criminals, Kids from various planets, implanted various Gene seed and inferior training. CSM are loosing the Legion specific traits, because of that. Also the CSM are Not fighting for 10k years, because the time runs different in the Eye of Terror.
Both. They are just different. Chaos space marines are less organized than Astartes. They lack logistic chain too. At the same time they are some of the most experienced warriors, and blessed by chaos too. Their structure is often much more flexible. They function completely differently though. Chaos space marines are fighting in more irregular capacity as raiders and mercenaries for Chaos armies. Their numbers are never enough to sustain prolonged campaigns. You will never see fight where entire chapter fights similar number of Chaos space marines. It will be squads, warbands of puny size from like 50 warriors to maybe 200 and hordes of heretics or warp entities on Chaos size. Never Chaos space marines alone, there just normally isn't enough of them. With maybe notable exception of Red Corsairs, or during Black Crusades. But even then elements will act with much less coordination. While Space Marine Chapter can sustain itself and fight on it's own, having organic void transport, armor, logistics... To bring real world example - it's like you taking ranger regiment with all it's gear, equipment and logistics to fight retired special forces members who banded together after going AWOL 20 years ago with their gear and whatever supplies they could grab. It just doesn't work for Chaos Space Marines. So normally you'd have like couple dozen of them organizing chaos horde. So imagine these retired special forces joining a terrorist organization like ISIS and organizing, commanding it's combat elements.
Plot Armor, the most valuable weapon the loyalists have... Why i always laugh when haters cry about my man Abaddons plot armor.... His is well deserved.. 😁💪🏻
I think chaos marines are only strong in looks of armor and weapon designs, but weaker in combat because they've stagnant due to their devotion on their chosen chaos god
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
who would've thought. Chaos's greatest weakness, is lack of order
😆True.
lololololololol
That's why Chaos is strong when they manage to unite under the same leadership.
Loyalists: Focused on team work and tactical superiority
Chaos: Focused on personal honor/power, all else are mere stepping stones. Or Tzeentch just interferes because he probably knows if humanity goes, his favorite playthings go too since his biggest joy is pulling the rug out from acquaintances and foes alike.
Chaos may have individual power, but there will always be more stacked against them.
@@grimreminder5038 tactical superiority? bro whole imperium has only one tactic. throwing meat to the grinder.
Also chaos:"All according to the plan."
Like in the book space marines apocalypse even before dying the Word Bearer still laughed maniacally talking about the "secret is out" and the imperial fists primaris marine struggled to understand wtf he was talking about. Only chaos can have an entire force wiped out and still claim it's a win because their scheme is too convoluted.
@@minhducnguyen9276or its an alpha legionnaire laughing their arse off knowing you are a sleeper agent about to wake lol
Logistics...logistics win wars. The forces of Chaos are clearly lacking in that. I mean look at the Death Guards invasion of Tau space. Ya for the Tau it was a horror show at first but once they started effectively fighting back they stomped them back to the warp.
I agree, Robute. Logistics win.
Rituals and sacrifice can't beat rivets and ceramite.
Also the Tau are completely cooked and don't even know it, am looking forward to The Second Rise of Men of Iron. Will be fun to say told ya so.
That and the warp fuckery barely have little affects on them so they’re basically an entire species of semi-blank-sort-of-kinda.
The Iron warriors are all about logistics 😂
@@lthudgins Ultramar: Center of a micro empire that not only tries its best to uplift a species, does this while serving as a backbone for a military force.
Medrengard: Daemonculaba, simple as.
Efficiency, while important to logistics, is not the same.
They can create anything they want from the warp, guns, armor, food, teddy bears, toilet paper, ammunition, and all war machines both mechanical and democratic.
All dropped off right above the planet, if it’s a logistical war then Chaos wins.
Logistics and cohesion win wars.
Chaos Space Marines maybe stronger on an individual level compared to Loyalist Space Marines. But your average Chaos Warband is a lot less cohesive and lack the Logistics to replenish their loses like the Loyalist Chapters.
That and Loyalist Chapters tend to be better equipped- going back to their better logistics. Loyalist Chapters have the industrial backing needed to make and repair their gear better, whilst Chaos Warbands need to make due with either outdated or stolen wargear.
How does a primaris compare to them?
@eyohboy455 Lack of experience. At least when Primaris Marines were first introduced to the Imperium. In spite of being superior to their Firstborn counterparts, they had a tendency to die a lot more frequently since most early Primaris Marines were fresh-faced recruits who barely had any combat experience before their augmentations.
This problem was something that solved itself as they started to become more commonplace in the following 100+ years. From Firstborn Veterans like Calgar or Titus going through the Primaris Rubricon, many of the original Primaris Marines that survived the Indomitus Crusade managing to adapt and overcome the issues and mistakes that caused them to suffer from their earlier high casualty rates, to the fact that Primaris Marines pretty much began to replace their original counterparts in the future generations of newer recruits since a vast majority of Loyalist Chapters were given access to the technology needed to make them.
@@MR.LMR1996 you mean deus ex machina and plot armor.
@@MR.LMR1996 good to know but i was asking for a comparison against CSM. Primaris might be all that, but what good are they if they still lose to a CSM and are also in general more *thunder warrior* like? This feels like GW leveling the planefield of CSM more than upgrading SM dont you think?
@@eyohboy455 I'd say the lack of experience still holds up in the earlier generations of Primaris.
Your average Chaos Space Marine is a life-long Veteran who can trace their routes all the way back to the Great Crusade itself. You can only plant so many augmentations into a brand new Super Soldier, but for warriors like Space Marines - both Loyalist and Traitor alike - experience will always play a massive wild card in the most experienced soldier's favor.
Again, this lack of experience the earlier Primaris Marines had solved itself as time went on after their introduction. Just like how these experience problems that the very first Space Marines had during the final years of the Unification Wars solved itself.
Chaos Marines are not advancing technologically. I agree neither was the Imperium till the Primaris were created. Also I totally agree with how powerful some Thousand Sons sorcerers are. Their feats are uncanny and anyone beating them in battle is simply bad writing. The only ones who stand a chance are Grey Knights that also only to a degree. Average Thousand Son sorcerers are probably as strong as a Chief Librarian of any CHapter with the exception of Mephiston.
Agreed. And hated how cartoonishly evil they were portrayed in space marine 2.
their terminator can sprint too😮
@@dubstepXpower Precisely !!! Its ridiculous. They have, even as a traitor legion, been far more honourable and noble than many loyalist legions.
Dark Mechanicum makes progress with Demon Engines
@@ravanpee1325 I agree that Traitor legions are enhancing with making deals with demons and the warp.
*Brother let me tell you a joke there was ones 2 traitor space marines walking across a world when they spotted in the distance a pair of loyalest Astartes so the 2 traitors fled as the 2 loyalist gave pursuit.*
*Will they were running 1 of the traitors said to the other we are armed with superior war gear of ancient provenance, we have millennia more combat experience then they & we are far mightier empowered as we are with many dread gifts of Chaos, so why are WE running from THEM?, why do we not slay them?*
*The other traitor looked him in the eyes with fear on his face & replied......Because, THEY, are, TOGETHER!!*
*Those Who betray others, betray only themselves!*
*=][=*
This sounds exactly like a joke Rylanor would ponderously bellow to his virus bomb companion that he has named Wilsonius as he awaits Fulgrim. I kneel to your humors.
I thought the joke was going to be they try to kill each other so they could 1 v 2
I always figured there were 2 factors at play
1) loyalist sm tend to be true brothers who will die for each other, for csm however death means eternal damnation and failure so it promotes a dog eat dog individualistic attitude.
Of course not all loyalists are brotherly (plenty of chapters certainly aint lmao) but they at least dont have that sort of pressure where dying means failure and being a soul snack, loyalist sm will typically praise a brother who gave his life in service for the chapter rather then lol that he died because he was weak.
2) Consistancy: loyalists have reliable gear with reliable supply lines, brothers are trained to fight together and entire chapter is made to function smoothly.
Chaos warbands have worst logistics, their guns might decide to grow an extra arm or something and the devastator you have relied on to cover your back for the past century is now full of delusions of grandeur and growing an obsession for skinning people alive mid combat whenever you raid planets so isnt as reliable as he used to be. Meanwhile your other buddy shares his body with a daemon of khorne so gl hf telling him to stay in a corner and overwatch for hours on end.
Literally just depends who's the named character.
Well yes
@@skaut_games7644 The only meaningful comment here :D
Stronger because lore, weaker because plot.
well, most of the chaos ones are bat shit cray cray so that never helps
Mental health issues lol
Wdym? Fulgrim still seems like a nice guy, he even made a painting of himself. That’s how much spare time he has to committing in arts. I sure do like him very much, I really hope his soul isnt lost to a demon or something like Angron did.
@@Tiku- And he was such a good bro to Manus he cloned him HUNDREDS of times after he was tragically murdered just to make sure he got his bro back perfectly I mean it's admittedly still a work in progress, but that's brotherly love if ever I heard about it.
They don't know Karate, but they do know Krazy
On the face of it, Chaos Space Marines have massive advantages (can summon Daemon allies, "gifts" of the Chaos Gods etc. But to quote ADB who has written multiple novels about Chaos Space Marines, they are impoverished. Chaos Space Marine's biggest weakness is their inability to easily produce new Space Marines.
Even with the Imperium's slow, seemingly inevitable demise, the Imperium still has enormous resources to call upon. Chaos doesn't have that. They're forced to rely on the Dark Mechanicus, so they have to be "friendly" with the Chaos forge worlds.
Realistically... Legions or Warbands like the World Eaters shouldn't even exist in 40k.
The word "chaos" refers to a state of disorder, confusion, disorganization, and mayhem, among other things.
The game 40k Gladius does a really good job showing the strengths of both sides. The SMs get wide army buffs through doctrines and tactics they can activate. CSMs can get blessings and mutations that increases their power, but each individual unit has to kill enemies for a random chance of getting a boon. A CSM unit with a mark, icon and all boons are unstoppable murder machines (a fully blessed Chaos Lord can solo a titan), but getting them there takes a lot of effort and resources. Where as the SM powers are much more reliable and consistent, given to all units that the doctrines affect.
its down to the fact that CSM are "villains" in stories and whatnot, they are something to over come. Loyalist are given "plot armour" so that they win, if it came down to just a battle CSM would win, considering the blessings the dark gods give their followers. Which is why you see in the books that chaos wins off screen. why would black library simply build up a character only to kill them right away. Like the daemon primarchs, they should be insanely powerful, but yet their loyalist brothers always some how defeat them, the daemon primarch can just come back while the loyalists couldn't, I would expect Angron to completely destroy the lion now, but I knew even without reading the book when the lion returns he would win because why would u kill off an important character as soon as they return.
while, plot armour Is a thing. It does make sense why a lot of the victories for the loyalists against chaos. I mean look at the battle of calth in know no fear. The word bearers had the ultramarines dead to rights, but the reason why they're lost was because of their own arrogance and instead of fighting to win, they will fighting ito sacrifice. Also, chaos don't make for the most stable recruitment in resupply.
Fulgrim killed roboute, (more like incapacitated) and he came back.
Angron was unstoppable during the Siege is because of the CARNAGE.
There are plenty of characters that have been built up, then killed off. If i named any of them, you would say that it doesnt really count because that character wasnt around for long enough.
@ironmangx-ro8mt To be fair, the Battle of Calth was explicitly stated to have been essentially a suicide charge, of the most unstable elements of the Word Bearers legion that would later become a liability in any Great War.
In exchange, around 10,000 Word Bearers crippled the largest legion of all, as well as destroying most of their void fleet, as well as a massive portion of Ultramar’s Solar Auxilia, Titan Legions, and other allies. True, they ultimately ended up getting wiped out, but even then, the war beneath Calth ended up occupying even more Ultramarines for years after tha battle.
Especially good considering that even Lorgar didn’t expect them to do so well, and he was even surprised to hear that fucking Kor Phaeron actually got a chance to kill his brother Roboute. Pretty good for the worst of the legion.
For 10 millenias, chaos, and therefore, chaos marines lost. To the imperial guard and the pdf. And the biggest treats, outside of plot armor, are traitorous guards and pdf. More than a decade ago, GW organized a campaign in its stores, to decide the fate of a dark crusade. I was there with my Blood Angels. We, loyalists, wiped the floor with them. It was not even funny. Not even a match. It was like fighting puppies with shotguns. GW was not happy and created the 13th dark crusade BS.
If I recall correctly, the 13th Dark Crusade was based on GW's campaign (on/around Cadia). The overall result was a ground victory for the Loyalists, and a Chaos victory for those in space (the result of which were based on games of Battlefleet Gothica). That's part of the reason that Chaos "won" the space war by resorting to desperate methods and ramming the whole planet with the Black Fortress.
Wow, got very bored of warhammer videos but this was great and i love the voice!
A lot of them are "Veterans of the Long War" or "Slave Wars" later on. They are on average stronger because they are more experienced than loyalist astartes but because they are Chaos they are ofcourse chaotic disorganized. Loyalist Marines are more disciplined and have access to more supplies unlike Chaos Space Marines Warbands which have to scavenge for most of supplies or are doing everything possible to keep their machines operational. They are quite literally armed in weapons they had during the horus heresy. (Which are warbands and not some organized legions. Legions like Black Legion or Word Bearers are rarity among the archtraitor forces). Loyalist forcess also on average have better command structure that is capable of commanding forcess. Both In Astartes and in the Guard or PDF. While Chaos equivalents are under the command of different overlords that have to keep check on not only their loyalist or xenos enemies but also keep an eyes on their underlings. It is true both in Chaos Space Marines warbands and traitor guard but on average Traitor Guard do have much more enduring military command structure.
This depends on legions and forces.
Chaos Space Marines do control thousands of daemon worlds within the Eye of Terror. They have untold hordes of human soldiers and servants as well.
They create their own war machines called daemon engines which can function in a variety of ways, even outmatching loyalists vehicles.
They have entire forge worlds where guns and tanks are made. Iron Warriors especially have many of these.
Some legions are still united, tactical and strong. Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Death Guard, the Black Legion, all function like legions of the old days.
World Eaters, Emperors Children, Night Lords etc, are the more broken and wild ones. Don’t aspire to much but, they raid for fun, supplies and for their gods. And in huge campaigns their old legions may reunite (like the Crusade of Fire), so they bring a staggering number of Astartes that the Imperium just can’t in any one warzone, and god knows how many psychotic human soldiers.
But often they fight for the more intact legions like Black Legion.
Do they have the resources of the Imperium and loyalist? No. Does that mean they should still be losing as often as they do? Absolutely not.
The Imperium is the late Roman Empire. They are attacked on all sides so have to pump resources against many enemies.
You can imagine chaos space marines as the Goths, while Necrons are like the Persians, and so on.
The goths didn’t have the resources or manpower, or unity of try Roman army, and had more men eager for personal glory. But they sacked Rome.
It’s the same with Chaos Marines, they are not push overs, and it is very often plot armour saving the Imperium.
Also I find the mention of the Night Lords novels interesting because I think it goes against your point. The members of Talos’ warband were very cohesive and united(on the field of battle). I haven’t read the books in a long time but didn’t they bring down a titan(the Word Bearers warband in their omnibus did, rather easily with cunning tactics). Either way they got out of that situation safely.
They defeated loyalist marines, fought with Red Corsairs cohesively and to win their battle and got out alive.
And they’re from the more pirate/wild side of CSM.
You're choosing to forget that 80% of the time, Chaos legions are fighting each other.
Short answer: bad writing. Long answer: most books are written from the Loyalist perspective. The writer wants their main characters to look awesome and forget that villains are only as threatening as shown. See the problem of the Avatar of Kaine. Something that should be able to solo entire chapters getting defeated routinely in one-vs-one.
Teamwork makes the dream work ❤
Tbh it seems the great crusade had a lot of kids just forced into it liek nassir amit who was a confirmed mutant and now they have a lot more barriers to entry also considering the 1000 battle brother cap
Personally, I really wish the writers would introduce more powerful relics that loyalists could use against their chaos counterparts. I hate the fact that chaos space marines are portrayed as having so much power without any real exploitable weaknesses.
Yet chaos space marines generally end up losing.
@dubstepXpower Yeah, but in most of the novels I've been listening to lately, they always seem to do their losing off screen. On screen, they usually achieve their objectives.
But that is because chaos is the definition of a twin bladed sword. Yeah, those pacts and boons make you immensely powerful but also makes one very easily distracted and manipulated, sometimes horribly so as with fleshchange.
It's real easy to overlook the Krieger walking up to you with that shovel in his hands when you are too lost in the sauce laughing and dancing your god's war song because you are a flower in the garden of your beauty's creator, or some prosaic easily shoveled-to-death hogwash.
@@dubstepXpowerfrom a certain (loyalist) point of view
Bro. Chaos blessed relics is all heretics have because their wargear is still heresy era stuff for the most part while loyalists got Primaris upgrades as well as new goodies all the time. Chaos doesn't have many of the same vehicles. They don't even have apothecaries on the tabletop. And you want to have equality when it comes to relics, even though they literally make pacts with dark gods? Come on man xD
Chaos is pure mutated strength and power but the loyalists have holy fervor while many chaos space marines joined because of gluttony of power for quick and easy while loyalists were still trained to know no fear and are supported by the huge imperium
I'm surprised most of them haven't gone extinct at this point.
Yea like the world eaters should not exist
Real strongest is a named ultramarine without helmet.
I think there are several reasons.
First off all, other than luna wolves, it is the "weaker legions " that turned traitor.
Not to mention other than horus and magnus the red, it is also the weaker primarchs that got corrupted.
Next they are not really advancing in tech.. have lesser supplies. Not to mention they have no access to the primaris.
There are more reasons lower quality of geneseed, lower quality recruits, training, bad logistics and etc.
But boy tho they have thicc plot armor.
SM chapters that specialize in sm to sm combat like minotaurs, space wolves, space sharks, Blood angels and the strongest chapter of all, the GREY KNIGHTS will absolutely body chaos space marines.
How the traitors are still thriving is beyond me.
I have yet to see in the games chaos marines being depicted powerful of competent. Even if they are in the lore. In 40K Boltgun, the Black Legion seemed like slow idiots standing around & waiting to get shot. In Space Marine 2, The Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons......... seem like slow idiots standing around & waiting to get shot.
@@samuelevander9823well, like said in the video. They’re essentially automatons with no free will. With the exception of the sorcerers.
Also Space Marines are completely shown as lore accurate either in game either. Other wise we’d be running super fast.
@@samuelevander9823
40000%, Black Legion portrayal in Boltgun is a disgrace to faction even if it's dictated by game's mechanic.
Black Legion terminators should've been "Arch-viles" of Boltgun, not "Pinkies".
@@somerandominternetdweller
I'd argue that in Boltgun projectiles are flying slowly enough for you to notice. That's because game adjusts its timeflow to human perception.
Those loyalists chapters you’ve hyped up still going to lose against Chaos because they are not actually better.
The main characters always win, if you read a Chaos novel they will slaughter the loyalists like pigs.
Meanwhile, the Iron Warriors have Medrengard where they build their daemon engines, breed slaves, keep their equipment, and lie in wait, paired with the Dark Mechanicum. They stay on par with the Space Marines because they often disregard the blessings of the dark gods.
Noise and Plague Marines are the best.
The way I take it, individually they are stronger, especially the old guard thats been around since the day of the Horus Heresy, those are extremely experienced fighter... And thats before factoring in the possible beneficial mutations they have.
But in a group they are weaker as they are individualistic and more selfish, leading to lesser cohesion and a weaker teamwork than loyalists.
The plot.
Does anybody have the links to the animations he was showing? Those sfm ones looked so sick 😭
Warhammer Lost Crusada Trailer . Death of Hope . Plague also Siege Sfm by Sodaz . Also Horus Heresy trailer.
@ so based, Ty!
@@Lawgamer411 Also I kinda missed the part but there is also some cutscene from Space Marine 2
I really appreciate you using your real voice even though it is not perfect. A beacon of light in an age of AI slop.
The 2nd dimension lore is great! However as soon as you REALLY get into it, PLOT ARMOUR. PLOT ARMOUR EVERYWHERE.
To be fair, aside from the table top games, everything is pre-rigged for some one to win.
It always seemed like a plot hole to me that in theory they should be much stronger than a normal space marine since they have a lot of extra power, but in practice they are always equal.
Now we can say that it is solved by all loyal marines being primaris
I think they should make it individually they should be stronger but have worse off when working as a team as in they care only for themselves. So loyalist marines should be individually weaker but their units have rules that allow them to synergies and have better support abilities, while Chaos marines rules are more for buffing an individuals but have poor support abilities for their units.
I heard blessings of the chaos gods and screamed heresy
SMs are good at everything but perfect at nothing. CSM feel like minmaxed version of SM - they don't have quite a few things that make SM good in exchange for being able to be great at something. Chaos marks really make then more specialized instead of generalistic.
Chaos marines pros: first generation gene seed, gifts of the dark gods
Cons: selection process in the great crusade was basically 'can swing a sword, is not a mutant'. Poor organisation
Imperial marines cons: gene seed and technology have degraded over time
Pros: each one is a literal warrior king. Far higher moral fibre than chaos counterparts
0:30 "It isn't just plot armor that allows the loyalist astartes to defeat their chaos rivals in more engagements than one can count."
You're right, it's imperial propaganda that paints it so.
-Logistics
-Writers hand
-Gameplay balance and selling models
Edit for extra: Also protagonist sindrom.
Plot armour
A house divided cannot stand. You have to have the trust of a community to work well, but if you are always executing anyone that displeases you, you have more enemies within your ranks and no support.
I'm questioning why so many people are handwaving loyalists winning as "plot armour" when half of the shit Chaos legions can do is handwaved as "warp magic" and "boons of the Chaos gods" 🙄
11:42 i though chaos don’t need to eat drink or sleep?
Not sure if the Marines need food or not, but the captured slaves that maintain and run the ship certainly do.
Plot armor actually effects both sides. There’s no way the eye of terror can support enough life for a galaxy invading army
Chaos should have a stat strength 💪 and a moral weakness IMO 😅
Soldiers vs Warriors that’s why we have professional soldiers today
Arnt they vastly outnumbered since most cant recruit anymore other than rubrik marines which tzeentch jufg sends their souls back?
No they make new csm, fabius bile or generic vat labs
Stronger because they're actually more expendable. To actually raise a chaos champion worthwhile of anything, you might need a century or 2. Primaris marines can fill the gap very quickly
BECAUSE, THE, EMPEROR, PROTECTS!
iron warriors are in contrast to other chaos marines well organized. have their own forge worlds and do logistics extremely well. iron within iron without.
plot armor. thats why.
1v1 Chaos Marines win, more experienced/warp juice, army vs army? Chaos can’t keep up with the industrial might of the Imperium
There us a difference to "more powerfull" or "more stronger". In case of strength i say that the Chaos Astartes Legions are stronger because the Mutation of the Warps, Veterans and Tech of all Kinds of the Great Crusade and more early that is more used than in the Empire and the Thing that they keep/try to maintain the old numbers of Legion Strengths ot set this as Targets for its Power that such a force deliver... the the Astral Claws that transform later to the Red Corsairs. But such Archivments are Needels in the Warp and even so rarley used efficent and not, well, chaotic. This brings me to the Loyalist... they may lack the Strentgh that the Chaos Marines *could* have but this is one of the few critical puonts they have. They are more powerfull because they have a stable and efficient way to got everything they need, in short a working Logistic chain, as well stable Geneseed. They lack of 10.000 Years old Veterans(Shoutout to Bjorn the Fellhanded. Vylka Fenrika hunts the Stars!) but has the better Organization and knowledge of 10000 Years of War. All in all: Chaos Marines are stronger but less powerfull.
Is the full power of a chaos marine manifest in reality?
What people forgets is that everyone (besides a few favorites or actually immortal characters) is cannon fodder, for no matter how strong armies are the weaponry is sbove them. The book like to make everything more dramatic but the reslity of war stays the same the weapon who hit first or harder win.
Primaris upgrades and newer armor
It Allways annoys me
Veteran if long war who fought million duels
Somehow gets folded by century old Marine because he's the good guy
I'm just going to say what we're all really thinking because the plot demands it 😅
Are iron warrioirs not considred chaos space marines?
They are. Night Lords and Iron Warriors just don’t give themselves fully to chaos like some other legions did
He probably left them out because they are an excellent counter to a lot of his points here
what video is that fight from at 1:31?
It's because the Emperor protects. Next.
In short: Warriors vs Soldiers. And soldiers would win 9 times out 10.
Hello brothers new to the franchise i am not interested in the minis and the board games just the lore
So please guide me as to where to start reading and if there are any audio books available as i dont like reading much(please advice me on where to read like the website app etc and the books itself )
Thanks
GLORY TO THE GOD EMPEROR
That's a clickbait if i ever read one.
Once a Marine fall to chaos, the very standards they were once accustomed to as "still mortal" are litteraly warped beyond recognition and they no longer abide by the same conception of "victory" or "defeat" as loyalists do.
I mean, think of it like the speedrunners from Ocarina of time (or any speedrunners in general.) They've already played the game, knows it inside and out and just... don't care about playing it the regular way and just decide to do completely random shit to spice the experience (like making a playthrough while setting a coockoo on fire all the way to Ganondorf. I'm not kidding, by the way.)
Ergo, they go from "necessity" and "following the script" to "fuck it : we ball" all the way through.
And suprisingly ? Despite doing random shit that doesn't make sense for the viewer (like prepping a bomb with a timed shield defence to just back slide with incredible speed and zero friction) actually end up speeding the whole thing FASTER than regular playthrough.
What i'm trying to say is that Chaos is kind of the same : it BSOLUTELY doesn't make sense from a "regular" point of view. But from Chaos' perspective, anything it does is for the sake of Chaos. Nothing else. It makes zero sense to us. But to them, it's simply couldn't work any other way.
Mechanicum can legit do what they want. Everything the mechanicus has once its gone its gone due mars being full of nepobabies. I mean where ya figs iron warriors and the black legion get all their tillary.
Really just a resource problem. Plus 3 legions probs 2 or 3 in terms of sticking with their own legion.
Plus zerg them world eaters are pretty good at boarding actions.
Bro, have you heard of second takes?
They are not in the warp they are in the eye of terror BIG difference.
with how many times certain points are repeated, I suspect that script was written by Abominable Intelligence
chaos space marines are better in every way
they just lack plotarmor
17 minutes worth of plot armour
Well chaos marines often fight for themself, and will backstab anyone else, or only enjoy murder etc. They dont fight for an collective purpose or others. So they will always lose. Just hope they lose even harder soon
Plot Armor: "You are strong when I say so!"
Chaos lack discipline and are single minded. Two incredibly dangerous flaws on the battlefield.
Most realistic answer would honestly be: They get more powerful if they stay alive. But phisically rotting and stagnating since release of primaris matines and Guillimans return. You can call his return and new crusade as ending age of stagnation. Now of course they are still rotting empire but they proved they can still carry Emperors legacy.
Double thing are xenos like orks or tyranids. If they never stood let's say orks can be used as payed soldiers since some of those exist and force majority of orks at least out of imperium while registering amount of ork spore spread, for tyranids just get i dunno. Hivemind gets burned by Emperor like how Nurgles garden happened? Chaos as only big faction, yeah they ARE smallest in number not including warp daemons. Let's say Thousand Sons? What will they do once imperium concentrate to extinguish all bigger Chaos warbands? Nothing. Bombarding their main planets, sending twice size numbers of operations without problem.
I must admit thing that Chaos is still active: They not only one serious issue within or outside Impuerium.
Because the writers are hacks.
1 to 1, chaos marines should be objectively stronger. Considerably so. The issue should be how much harder it is for then to get new recruits.
But GW threw their original lore in the trash a decade before I started reading it.
Loyalists are regimented to near-perfection in all relevant aspects: Equipment, doctrine, leadership, logistics etc. Rarely will any of these falter enough to bring down the entire whole alongside it, nevermind see corruption (of the monetary and egoistic variety) be impactful enough to lower effectiveness (there aren't many cases of the badab wars).
Traitors meanwhile are completely unorganized in comparison. Some warbands and legionnaires thought during the great crusade and still kept their [equipment, doctrine, leadership, logistics etc.] effective, however would still, at best, be behind the loyalists due to working on a smaller scale. Meanwhile other warbands have basically abandoned all necessary 'traditions' so to speak that created and kept the legionnaire astartes working because they have so little discipline that they can only be made to fight loyalists on threat of death or personal gain from the chaos gods.
To say: Traitor warbands range massively in effectiveness, yet in practice are always smaller than loyalist forces, and hence even if you have an effective traitor warband, unless it is only going to engage is guerilla warfare, it will need to work with other, potentially less effective warbands inorder to fight loyalists head on.
Loyalists very much have the upper hand, and traitors HAVE to throw warp nonsense at them inorder to secure any wins only to in progress sacrifice equipment they likely cannot recreate.
If it's tzeentch I think the normal Astartes are stronger because they fall back on magic to much.
If it's Slaanesh idk Grey Soldiers idk don't at me, I don't wan't no smoke.
Nurgle hasn't found a way to defend his worshipers from from Fight Club soap.
And as for KORNE uh yea they definitely are stronger.
Ps FOR KHORNE
Chaos isnt also inherently stronger than imperium. Chaos gods like to paint that picture but every time strong loyalist psyker shows up or better yet emperor shows up the daemons run scared. The chaos gods lie to their worshippers all the time. Tzeentch tells his worshippers that he controls fate yet none of his schemes succeed. Nurgle claims he is a loving grandfather yet treats you less than nothing if you show no value. Khorne claims to be war incarnate but Imperium feeds the emperor more despite fighting eternal war. Slaneesh boasts emotion itself but is nothing but perversion. Together they claim to be the truth yet all they do is lie. The traitor marines who are mentally destroyed to be lesser legitimately believe that superhuman gifts make them superior. Yet mortal men with humble lasguns have held them back for 10,000 years.
It's really quite simple. Modern Loyalist firstborn use mark 7&8 generally and have small selections of marks 3-6 and those armors are objectively superior same could be said of plasma technology far more reliable. Now pair that with the "gifts of chaos" and the experience of the long war. Most Astares circa M42 doesn't have a whole lot of experience in Marine vs Marine combat and chaos Astares have that in spades.
Now as to how they are weaker Chaos gives you power, but takes away focus and cohesion which is vital to winning wars. Chaos by it's very nature is contradictory giving you raw power in exchange for tactical awareness. Individual strength wins fights, but logistics wins wars.
Whats the cinematic from in the beginning?
Death of Hope fan made animation
@@coletam you da best
But death to the false emperor am i right fellas?
this guy has alot of trouble just speaking
16:16 wtf is that animation😂
I m not sure about that video is heresy or not ??? ;D
Biggest issue, you think a khorne worshipper has any brain cells rolling around?
I doubt it, only ones who do are snitch and sexy queen and space marines of the snitch are dust and sexy queen is pretty much a joke of a space marines factions
Noise marines are pretty useless when the house has like 3 different layers of armor which realistically go by that to viberate it you need 3 frequencies
So pretty damn she’s only one that can actually form supplies.
snitch doesn’t have use for supply lines when only your men are made of dust
Nurgle right, um no I don’t care that the lore says the pleague god made a virus that destroy metal that’s completely stupid. But I guess he could issue is unlike queen of lust
Of her followers can remain fully human and fully functioning
So sigma
Stop it with the ai slop
They goon too much
There are only few veterans of the Horus Heresy left. A lot of them are just criminals, Kids from various planets, implanted various Gene seed and inferior training. CSM are loosing the Legion specific traits, because of that. Also the CSM are Not fighting for 10k years, because the time runs different in the Eye of Terror.
Loyalist cope. Still salty over cadia, eh?
Ave imperator !
Cadia stand 🎉
@@antodiyo7523 praise daddy khorne
@@antodiyo7523 even more than that it doesnt stand its flying, you know, in chunks
@@seedbutu9605
Ave imperator
Hydra dominatus
@@antodiyo7523 nope. Cadia go boom. Jajahhahahahaha
Both. They are just different. Chaos space marines are less organized than Astartes. They lack logistic chain too. At the same time they are some of the most experienced warriors, and blessed by chaos too. Their structure is often much more flexible.
They function completely differently though. Chaos space marines are fighting in more irregular capacity as raiders and mercenaries for Chaos armies. Their numbers are never enough to sustain prolonged campaigns.
You will never see fight where entire chapter fights similar number of Chaos space marines. It will be squads, warbands of puny size from like 50 warriors to maybe 200 and hordes of heretics or warp entities on Chaos size. Never Chaos space marines alone, there just normally isn't enough of them. With maybe notable exception of Red Corsairs, or during Black Crusades. But even then elements will act with much less coordination.
While Space Marine Chapter can sustain itself and fight on it's own, having organic void transport, armor, logistics...
To bring real world example - it's like you taking ranger regiment with all it's gear, equipment and logistics to fight retired special forces members who banded together after going AWOL 20 years ago with their gear and whatever supplies they could grab. It just doesn't work for Chaos Space Marines. So normally you'd have like couple dozen of them organizing chaos horde. So imagine these retired special forces joining a terrorist organization like ISIS and organizing, commanding it's combat elements.
- Laughs in Iron Warriors -
the astartes are designed to be the predators, and the traitors just became the toys of their own prey.
Named character always win
Plot Armor, the most valuable weapon the loyalists have...
Why i always laugh when haters cry about my man Abaddons plot armor.... His is well deserved.. 😁💪🏻
I think chaos marines are only strong in looks of armor and weapon designs, but weaker in combat because they've stagnant due to their devotion on their chosen chaos god