Navy Seal Violates CQB Tactics and Nobody Cares (New Channel
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
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This video is a demonstration of different CQB tactics utilizing Navy Seal and Green Beret training videos. The purpose of this video is to show the implications of the choices you make in a CQB environment , and give users the opportunity to make the best decision.
#tacticaltraining #cqb
My mission here is to provide tactical training, and police education to police officers through what I believe is the best information possible to the best of my abilities.
Disclaimer: Please see view channel description for our disclaimer policy for all of my videos.
The link to my new channel is in the description of this video. All my content will be there from now on. I appreciate everyone who helped me build this channel.
The SWAT commander at my agency always says "If there was one single tactic that worked 100% of the time, evergone would be using it". Its just about minimizng risk and maximizing the chance of success.
He also told me that you can do EVERYTHING right and still get shot in the face. It's an inherent risk that is never completely eliminated. Just comes with the job.
Yep 👍🏼
i do love my chabces
Unless said tactic gets learned by hostiles then its going to get interesting
@@kimseo-ryoung5640evergone does
this is where experience comes in. there is always a quirk to every scenario as no 2 scenarios are 100 percent the same. similar but not quite the same. principles and protocols will give you the most mileage but experience is like a videogame where gamesense kicks in. just wish real life had a respawn button to really dial in on that gamesense aye?@@codaxthevulture4129
Man I was a CPL in the Marine Corps clearing houses with none of that high speed gear in the second battle of Fallujah. Not everything works out exactly how trained because there are all kinds of variants. You have to adjust and free think some situations. Hell we were going in one person sometimes.
Yeah man I understand that. Cops do one man all the time because you just don’t have a choice. Thats not Fallujah of course.
@@Forward_Concepts man Fallujah or not, there is nothing as truly terrifying or dangerous as clearing a house. Any one that says they aren't scared every time no matter how many times you have done it, they are a damn liar you know that for a fact haha great video brother
@hatfieldmccoy0311 that's not true. Only people that have done it and experienced its terror will be afraid of it. When I was a boot, we did this training ex in victorvilles old abandoned housing district. He (my team leader) took point on a flight of braced stairs, open left, open right at the top, we get nearly to the top and an AK (with blanks mind you) opened up, and he instantly spun and in total panic started kicking me back down the stairs. Later on in my career I learned why. Moral of the story... you can't be afraid of something you are ignorant of.
One man clearing a room was almost standard practice after initial entry. When cordon and search happened on a square city block, it had to be fast and dirty or you had too many rabbits.
@@USMC0311CplJacksonbro what…?
I got taught CQB 3 separate times by the Marine Corps (I mean...we trained it a lot more than that, but I mean completely fresh from-the-top teachings).
1) in school of infantry, first time
2) a couple years after they revamped the tactics and sent instructors out to each company to retrain them in the new ideas
3) a few years after that got the chance to learn from MARSOC for a couple weeks and took it
#1 and #3 both were just room dumping. I mean...fancy room dumping with a lot of skill and tactics (especially #3) but, as you called it, room dumping. Man 1 to a corner, man 2 to a corner, man 3 center, collapse the room, etc.
#2 was pretty much what you describe where you clear center funnel by pie-ing the middle first with a wide step or two, before going to your corner, getting as much of the room (or at very least center funnel) cleared before you step in
My takeaway, for what it's worth, from learning and training both at different times is that:
#1/#3 - Works best only when you have total dominance. Such as an initial breach when nobody even knew you were there, or if enemy is in total disarray and not mounting any serious resistance you can use this to keep the pace absolutely brutal and violent and sweep things hard and fast so that the whole thing is done before they have a chance to do much back. Which can be useful.
#2 - Any time other than the above. A hard room to room fight, or the enemy is prepared, or whatever. In fact I would consider this the most important one and should be the default. The other should be considered advanced and, even then, only situational.
Actually I should say I learned it 4 times. The fourth was when a grizzled old gunny told me clearing rooms is a horrible idea and we should put the muzzle of a tank in the door and let off a round first. Then go in once everyone is already probably dead or at least really messed up :)
I think I prefer #4 when possible.
as a civi with no formal training and who attempts to think engagements through in various fps games, i see it when clearing an unknown room there are 2 main modes, one being raid and seize while the other being a search and clear.
raid and seize, which i think the room dumbing is best for, relies on speed and surprise. it is also almost assuming who you are raiding are less prepared and/or trained than you are. my game equivalent would be for like search and destroy for the call of duty games.
search and clear is slower paced relying more on being defensive and reducing the risk of a prepared defensive enemy firing first. in this the enemy knows you are coming but they cant be 100% certain when you will come through that door. with stepping through center you get a more control on who gets to see the other first and can react quicker. games like counterstrike and rainbow six siege benefit this style of room clearing a lot more.
of course the best option is to make the room just not exist anymore. sadly not too many games let you bring the armored interior decorators or the fly by demo crews.
Preeeeeetty sure the marine handbook advocates clearing rooms with a fragmentation grenade
@@draugur345 even so, a squad can only carry so many grenades. so once they run out they need some method to clear a room without them.
I sometimes get perturbed when I see CQB trainings, as they oftentimes leave out anything related to a prepared defense. I saw a number of casualties from room clearing, and most were from things not covered. Enemy firing ports through the wall, into the room you are entering, being a particularly nasty one. In general, once shooting starts, every situation is going to be handled differently.
@@draugur345 No, that's called prepping the room.
My house clearing technique is to start with the dishes first, then some light mopping and if there's time before brunch, a good dusting of the furniture.
lol
I usually go dry first (dusting, vacuuming) and start the wet work later.
And it's much better to do it with an experienced teammate.
So you don't hit the corners first?
One of my favorite quotes from an instructor: “there’s a million and one ways to do cqb and not one of them is right”
I started my SWAT career in 1991. Flooding (or Dumping if you prefer) the room was all the rage at the time, and we got away with it for years because most of the bad guys we ran into just didn't fight back. Luckily TTP's have changed and threshold Evaluation is now becoming the norm. There's no need to rush to your own death.
Exactly. I worked on a team in the early 90’s and through the Columbine dilemma as teams varied their strategies. We had various apartments throughout the cities we responded to and the floor layouts were an absolute nightmare and perfect for the a bad guy to stage, easily. And they did. Some, directly on entry had long and narrow hallway, barely wide enough for a guy kitted out in our old bulky gear. No rooms feeding off, just a 15’ long fatal funnel before opening up into the main living area. Guy waiting for us in his lazy boy with an AK. How in the fuck do you flood floor plans like that? We had no choice but to address at the threshold. Things are always in flux and that truly is the essence of adapting to your given environment.
Great video and explanation by the way !
I was wondered why tac teams would rush head first into a room going left, right, and center because the first guy in is always at high risk from the unchecked corner
Well…. Rushing to your own death may be better in a school scenario. Just watched a vid on that. It’s all scenario based like most thing
no need to rescue evidence.
rescuing people, different story.
Yeah unless you’re going in behind a flash bang you really don’t want to be charging a room….
They taught my ass this at a community collage reserve police academy in 2020 funny enough, “the best way to gift your mother a folded flag is to rush in without knowing what’s in the room.” my instructors brought up the same reasons you’re bringing up here, and if you really think about it, it makes a lot of sense.
Especially if there’s only one or two folks who need to clear that particular room, you don’t have “bodies to spare” on a blind assault.
If you get tunnel vision from running head long into a room like you have 100 times before in training and you don’t see the bad guy and get shot then you died for nothing, and that asshole can keep killing your buddies/ Family/innocent folk.
Fantastic video man
Thank you!
What always bothered me in a lot of CQB training is doing it with empty rooms. I was always for filling it up with stuff. The flood method really goes to crap when you aren't in an empty flat room in Iraq. It works when you have identified the most likely position of the threat
@@smalltowncop4907 we had dug in instructors.
At least one of them was a marine corps vet from the invasion and enduring freedom.
It wasn’t simu-nition by any stretch but they kept us on our toes and I’m very grateful for that.
This has to do with focusing, when ops are assessing and pie’ing the room. That tunnel vision is usually do to the hyper fixation of expecting to always see a combatant. Almost like when someone becomes glossy eyed and can’t concentrate, except here it’s a concentrated point at the tip of your rifle.
Splinter Cell and Rainbow Six taught me that one.
Also I'm pretty sure Sun Tzu said something about knowing your enemy...
Had seniors in fallujah 2nd battle 04, they said the marine flooding tactics failed them. they would blindly enter those rooms like the traditional tactics you mentioned and they would get hit by hidden gun men. They would then have guys down in the room and end up dying and having a 10 foot firefight for the next hour or more trying to get the bodies out. It left them with no options they couldn't frag the rooms, they couldn't back off and blow the building up or call tanks, they still hadn't ID'ed the bad guy, and worse now you have x Marines dead in the room being used as bait for the rest of the squad.
They said they quickly started changing tactics to clear pie off from the outside of the room (sometimes saws from the doorway to recon by fire) because at least you can clear 80% of it before final corners. And as an added benefit if you did engage at the fatal front its easier to engage from outside the room than inside where you're exposed to everything at once. Gives you more options when you don't have to go drag your man out of a room.
I don't know about you but i'd rather engage from outside the room than go inside being exposed to the rest of the room I can't process all at once. Marines need to be able to change tactics and not do only one thing because "they were taught this way" never questioning it.
Good info!
i am a civillian, no training at all. i sometimes play with nerfguns with a few bros. but even just from that aswell as common sense it just seems utterly insane to me to run into a room and only then try to check for people and fire. what was the rationale behind that even? the only thing i can think of is that its meant to be like volley fire in the pike and shot era: you get three guys into the room so you have three times the fire power if a second or two later. But that logic seems utterly crazy for our ages accurate and high rate of fire weapons and even more crazy for short distances like in rooms.
the way you explained it makes total sense. but who came up with #1 and #3?
@@kettenschlosd the principle behind dumping into a room is based upon the idea that trained soldiers will flood and react quicker and more accurately than the hostile/s in the room. At a very high level with dudes who train it day in day out it's probably effective. Your standard infantry guy has to train to fight in a far more varied environment, from mountains to jungle so can't CQB regularly, but the principle still applied, get in the room as fast as possible and out gun what ever is there. The reality is you're going to have a high casualty rate though. What most people don't understand is casualties are accepted and expected in the military. Your life is spent to achieve the objective by your commander. Simple truths most militaries don't like to put in their recruitment material. Your Co may calculate clearing a building will cost him 5 lives, and decide securing that building is worth the spend, so in you go.
@@zentwoniner very interesting, thank you for the answer. so it is basically as i figured: it has a similar purpose to standing line formations in early gun warfare, to increase firepower at the cost of cover.
honestly these simple tactical considerations have always held me back from seriously contemplating to become a soldier, just too many situations where dying or living comes down to luck/superior officers decission.
@@kettenschlosd Flooding the room can work if the enemy has no idea that there is about to be a raid. If the enemy is unprepared then throwing some flashbangs and letting your team get in as many guns as possible is effective. Different strategies for different scenarios.
My team transitioned to threshold assessment and limited penetration tactics a few years ago. I learned dynamic entry in the Marines, but it took no time at all to see that the threshhold assessment makes far more sense. There is a great body cam video that I show people to explain it. The officer dumps the front door and immediately takes rounds from depth in the house, he never saw the shooter or had a chance to return fire. He ends up crawling into a side room and having to be extracted by smashing out a garage door because #2 never got in the door once rounds started flying. They didn’t have the discipline to do so and frankly I don’t blame him because most law enforcement doesn’t train enough to have that. A full pan of the front door would have given the first officer a chance at a 50/50 gunfight worst case scenario, and if he did get hit he would be able to fall out of the shooters line of sight and be getting treated immediately instead of being trapped in the house with the shooter.
The only scenario where my team still believes in dynamic is a hostage rescue, which makes sense because in HR the priority of safety is the hostage and speed and surprise can be essential.
Yeah I used part of that video in the video before this one on Photonic Barriers ...The greatest argument for a shield ever made video
I first learned the "center check with dynamic entry" tactic when I was fortunate enough to get some training from 5th Group SF guys as a PV2 along with some others in my platoon at the time. In my eyes it combines the strengths of both pieing and dynamic entry tactics while mitigating a lot of both their weaknesses.
Unfortunately, every unit I've been a part of since, immediately shuts me down when I try to teach this method. They are just so completely caught up in basic training style room dumping they have never even bothered to think about what the fundamental principals behind the tactics they are being taught are. 4 years now and running, E-6 's and E-7's are completely unwilling to even hear an explanation of how the tactic works or why it may be preferable.
yea bro cops shouldnt be militarized man....
@@joshmiller9783 ok bro
@@Forward_Concepts i mean they shouldnt... swat is a different story but regular beat cops should not be.... they already think we serve them and not the other way around....
But you can't talk about CQB unless you have nods 😂
Tell me I’m wrong
Or raid the wrong house 🤣
Or forearm tattoos...
@@Snipperslypreparation H stock skyrocketed after that one 😂
Does the NOD that comes with call of duty modern warfare 2 deluxe edition count?😂
After training CQB in the Marine Corps...I learned where to position myself(as a terrorist) and what to look for. We would take turns being the bad guys(if the instructor liked you) and it really made things fun. So if you know the flash bangs coming...stand to the left of their entry, shut your shooting eye and and aim at the doorway. We would have fun and stand behind the door and see if they open it hard enough to know you're there. if not...trip or jump on their back. We used to train casually in Security Forces. But the most fun and the best instructors were at Combat Town at Camp Pendleton. They used live rounds and had a catwalk for instructors to watch from above.
Pendleton is my jam
Wait marines do cqb I thought they just drove a tank through the front door
@@yo9758 Only when authorized lmao, much safer that way
In basic training we had a guy hanging up in the ceiling joist
CQB for police here is very different from usual.
I'm from special group in Federal Police in Brazil. In my area we would almost never enter a room with a threat. There's no point on it. So the best way is to go very slow to gather as most of intel you can get. Stay outside, make the guy surrender, get out of the room, or get out by force (with gas) even if it takes all day.
Yes, our animal instinct is to hunt, even that you don't need to, so you're driven to engage, but I try to keep as safer as we can be. Most of the time there's no need for engagement.
Also, a lot of cops get shot because people on houses mistake them with bad guys. So you need to be very loud and communicative about being police. Never rush... always very careful, slow, and trying to let them very aware that you are a police force.
There are very few scenarios that we would have to enter a room with a threat, and it's a gamble. And I'm not payed enough to gamble w/ my life.
This right here.
I'm law enforcement, recently cleared the home of a deceased hoarder.
Home was two story anf full off crap everywhere.
CQB was almost impossible to perform 😂 reality kicks in.
You work with the cards you get dealed
Good point.
I can't help but wonder how would that fancy entering techniques work in 30 square metres flat in Eastern European "commie bloc".
It might sound weird, but I think first person shooters are actually quite good for that malleability to clear weird areas. You get so many reps in for clearing different styles of normal rooms with furniture, doors, and windows, but also crazy structures. You might clear meandering caves, a cluttered batch of cubicles in an office building, a mini mart, inside a submarine, a half demolished apartment building, a shipping center, and bridge filled with abandoned cars, all in one afternoon and from various directions or speeds. The game of recognizing and managing angles as you learn what an area looks like is largely the same.
@@DallenRexI wonder if anyone’s ever made a software for this. It would basically be a stripped back Ready Or Not at its core, but with virtually everything on each map randomly generated. I bet thats actually a possibility now that AI is taking off. Something like that may be useful as supplemental training, to go alongside real world training.
@@griffindrucker5712 Airsoft/vr shooters are good teachers as well
@@vappyreon1176 I feel like Airsoft and other IRL training isn’t as good for this, because you’re limited by what environments are accessible for training. Whereas, with anything virtual, the only limits are what the hardware/software can support. And with AI, I feel like the software limits have been greatly reduced in many ways.
7:40 nope. My partner and I got stuck in a house with a bad guy with a gun and he was wearing heavy plates with it. 100% thought I was dying that day. I'm glad I came across this video because your setup was similar to my situation only the house was more rectangle than a square but the concept similar. In the academy we were taught dynamic and static ways to clear buildings. The call was definitely dynamic however I was point man and I knew of at least 2 potential threats, 1 was detained the other retreated further in the house. I did what wasn't "taught" which is talked about towards the end of the video. I pied my entry door, was able to observe and call out what I saw directly in front from the rear, but then made entry going right to clear the corner, collapsed in towards the front of the building. By that time, bad guy with a gun came down and it was on. I'm subscribing just based on this video, since that day 2 years ago I replay in my head what I could have done better and what I should have done. Some of the other guys I used to work with are scary with clearing buildings and the SWAT guys...well, their arrogant and judgmental. Solid explanations of the difference
Nice video you nailed it! I'm glad you covered the fact, if the Officer Stepping center engages a suspect and gets hit, his options of moving of center and being outside the room is much more favorable than being in the room. Hopefully you don't mind me using this in my next training.
Do your thing...spread the word.
Great explanation
I randomly found this video and was surprised to see our footage 😆
The thing with CQB tactics is that there is a divide on what looks cool and people think that works reliably and what actually happens. Anyone that has ever tried using some of these tactics in FOF scenario, even just with airsoft or paintball, has realized that it often doesnt work with a "determined" adversary.
When someone is waiting to shoot you when you come into the room, the element of surprise doesnt help much.
So basics like slicing the pie become very valuable - it makes sense to clear as much room as possible and gather information before actually entering. Yes, you spend more time in the fatal funnel but sometimes that's less dangerous than just running into a room blindly.
European police special units seem to be using more of these kind of tactics that are suplemented with the use of heavy protection and ballistic shields
Good stuff. I also think there is often times a misunderstanding of exposure in the “fatal funnel.” It seems as if people don’t realize that you are standing there and continuing to utilize that technique because you have “cleared” the areas of exposure…if hadn’t then there’s a cost to benefit ratio that needs to happen with speed vs. exposure to uncleared areas that …by your very movement you are less and less available to cover. I.e. open doorways inside the room that someone could emerge from as you are conducting that threshold evaluation.
Analysis at the threshold is what i like especially in the LEO...no need to rush to get shot or hurt. Plus this allows for ones thought process to be reevaluate over and over. Rather deal with one OODA Loop then having to react...get startled then start your OODA loop. Thanks for these topics.
yep!
Flooding/Dumping was from the old hostage rescue, & people picked it up as no one had used anything else to effect. We had to learn in blood to THINK "why am I rushing in? Do I NEED TO? "
I remember seeing a video of Green Berets and Polish SF doing cross training and thinking that the Pole’s tactics made more sense because they approached the room exactly how you said with clearing from the outside looking in rather than Berets’ tactic of everyone rushing into the room as fast as possible. Now I’m just a lowly infantry marine but our tactics were also very similar to the poles in the idea of not overextending into the threshold and letting things breathe a little before committing to a danger area. Now I’m not shitting on our SF guys, they know a lot more than I do but I do think casualties could be limited by pieing off doors rather than storming the room faster than your brain can react. Also, not super relevant since it’s just a statistic that leave out a lot of variables but these tactics could also explain how the Polish GROM (basically their Delta Force) have never had a single KIA despite still taking very dangerous missions across the globe.
Former Marine here nice to meet you
Israel also transitioned to slow pieing, they have a very little casualties in their wars and a very small army that can’t afford casualties.
@@EvolvedTactical ah okay. Still For as long as GROM has been around, their first KIA coming in 2013 is still very impressive.
@@Forward_Concepts likewise, im almost out and going to pursue a career in law enforcement and your videos have been very helpful and informative. I also like how seriously you take the tactical side of the job. I’ve noticed a lot of cops don’t.
@@litare4328 you’re thinking of no such thing as an “ex” marine. Former is just a marine who’s no longer in active duty.
I have always said CQB is unpredictable, and the biggest thing is making a decision. I always use the final fight scene in unforgiven as an example.
You will live or die by the decision that you make
@@Forward_Concepts or by the decision you don’t make. People get stuck on doing things perfectly and having everything go right. Things don’t always go the way you want them to and you have to be ready for that and be able to flex if needed.
Another masterpiece! I love threshold assessment! They always say to get out of the “fatal funnel” as soon as possible but seeing this video proves that sometimes that is way better than just dumping into the room and hoping you don’t get hit.
I mean the alternative is way worse …I’d rather get hit in the plates than above them on my side
This is absolutely why I love the internet I’m 22 and was rejected from every branch of the military due to medical issues and these wells of knowledge is amazing to tap in to and learn from the best who have been there and done that
There's a waiver for everything haha. Try again, just don't disclose *EVERYTHING*
You're lucky you were rejected you don't want to serve under these clowns right now.
You should read up on how many mighty fine warriors cheated on the eye/medical exam to get into the military...
Hey partner, I was blown off by them too. About when I was 32, I became a volunteer fireman, then a diver for the sheriff office and a reserve deputy for a total of 30 year’s service. Never made a dime for any of it.
There’s a lot of ways to serve your country. You don’t need to go abroad for that.
Ive seen a phenomenon in swat training where a team member that saw a target stopped to engage it and/or moved to cover it instead of rigidly following the dump/flood movement, and the team member was rudely critiqued about it. I cant remember where/when it was (late 90's or early 2000's maybe pacific NW) a swat team did a high risk entry on a residence and the guy they were looking for shot the first 2 or 3 swat guys under their armpits with a shotgun from parallel along the living room wall, their response was to add plates in a cumberbund to that portion of the body going forward, that was the extent of it. This was a good presentation and I'd like to hear your take on fairbairn & sykes sometime.
P.S. I've seen some dumb shit in my time, but what made it dumb was the refusal to discuss it afterwards.
Damn this is spot on
The largest error in the example you gave was the #1 man stopped to engage, IF entering he needs to clear the opening to allow other gunmen into the fight.
By that I mean engage but keep moving, shoot and move!
Retired leo, 11yrs swat point man, u r spot on, unless doing a hostage rescue dynamic entry, we pie rooms. Much is how we'll team works. I had first glance and if plan was for me to go left but I see threat ctr or rt, my 2 man knows to play off my reaction. Good stuff.
Thanks!
Glad to see stepping center is finally getting some love. Worked a job where we did 1-2 man HRT type stuff….. absolutely necessary when solo.
"Or raid the wrong house" was wild xD
Thanks!
Threshold evaluations and “rolling doors” has been the industry standard for awhile. These were lessons learned in blood during the GWOT, and have trickled down from JSOC to other mil units and into civilian LE. “Center stepping” or “center checking” is now prevalent outside of “deliberate” clears and translates into Hostage Rescue.
Agreed. But I saw a good counterpoint from Chuck Pressburg when I was at the Alliance, OH PD training facility a few years ago. A lot of that stuff came from places with mud walls that will stop rounds. Chuck said he always challenges any proponents of threshold work to do a shoothouse with UTM and walls made from stretched out bed sheets. He said he reliably smoke the entire team right through the walls.
We worked this FoF. Center fed room two man entry driving yve corners. 100% correct that the bad guy centered up always got the drop. Best outcome was a tie. We switched to the center dump and problem fixed. Your guys have to know their craft and get the reps. Lots of reps to reprogram the tactic. Nice video...honest information and clear delivery. Thanks man!
Context matters. Several factors to consider domestically v industrial and LE v Mil situations. Drywall is not cover and bullets will go through it. There are diminishing returns on one person clearing at the threshold when the number of bad guys exceeds his ability to get in the room with rounds on each target before he gets drilled. If he goes down in the threshold the rest of the team has to get over him (or try to get him out) and the bad guy is now pumping rounds at the breach; and through the drywall (domestic structure consideration). If you are going to clear from outside the threshold, as soon as you down the first person who, if you have surprise, probably isn't sitting there waiting for you, his mates can now do this thing that static targets don't and that's called move. The other bad guys in the room (the number of which are unknown to you) can now pump that breach full of rounds. You have now lost surprise and momentum. There are so many factors to consider that one could justify virtually any technique that may work in that situation but not in others. In the example, none of the threats shot back or were really "ready" for the entry. If there was a third bad guy in the corner to the left, he is now throwing rounds at the door before he can get dropped as the rest of the team tries to get in. This technique worked in this situation only in hindsight based on these conditions.
I know Orion training group teaches threshold eval with arcing around the entry point before moving in, and fwiw I am not combat arms but I was taught by MPs recently for predeployment training to do the same thing before dumping in, in any case great video as always and thanks for sharing it
No prob
I would think any other tactic like stepping directly into a hard corner is almost suicide, I always pie around the entryway and then only when my hard corners need clearing I will either turkey-peek to get a snapshot or rush in ASAP into 1 corner, and then swing barrel around 180°
Hostage rescue CQB is different than other CQB.
Fast team based vs can be smaller & much more deliberate.
That's what I've been taught over the 20+ years worked & learned.
At first it was all Hostage Rescue Rush. Having to RElearn to slow down because it is NOT NEEDED most of the time, except H/R. Just clearing a house, no reason to not go slower & clear from the outside as much as possible before going in.
SLICE THE PIE.
No doubt. The highest speed shit I ever saw was what Chuck Pressburg taught in Alliance, OH at the memorial for Pat Rogers. He made it clear that this was only for hostage rescue, where your assaulters are lower in the priority of life than everyone but the perp. #1 man to the far corner every time. Combat L in every room.
That said, he's also not a fan of a lot of threshold work. May have worked in the GWOT with mud walls. But not with US construction. Way to easy to get shot through the walls.
@ILruffian US walls are thinner by far, but at least concealment. I saw a study once, where people hit behind things like mattress, non bullet stopping stuff, and they were less likely to be shot, as even untrained people waited to shoot at what ever little body part was poked out.
Would I trust that 100%? Nope. But is a data point to consider.
Also, even thinner US walls can stil deflect a round.
What’s missing in this technique and equation are the OODA Loop and divided attention that is experienced by the bad guy when more than one good guy is inserted into the room and is beyond the doorway’s “fatal funnel”. Once they have entered, multiple good guys/armed targets present a decision for the bad guy’s brain on which one to shoot at.
Staying IN the “fatal funnel” is very easy decision for the bad guy to just shoot anything that moves within the doorway.
I’m not saying This technique is better or worse, but it largely takes the OODA Loop and Divided Attention out of the equation.
Also, some teach that the #1 man is non-committal and goes Wherever he sees a threat, the #2 goes opposite of #1 and #3 covers the last area. #1 can do no wrong Except stopping IN the doorway, #2 and #3 have to adapt to what hasn’t been cleared. Each have to keep it moving to get as many guns into the fight as possible.
That’s not to say that “slicing the pie” from outside the room is bad, but once the decision is made to enter, that entry needs to be quick and stay moving to allow as many Good guns into the fight as possible.
Attention is divided once the team is in the room, if they make it
Exactly
THANK YOU! ive been saying this for years that "checking your area first doesnt make any sense. PREACH!
shotgun spam at neck height with 2 flashbang seems to work 112% of the time
I'm not an expert but a couple months ago I had to give a class on CQB to my platoon. I went over both methods and went over some scenarios where one method may work better than the other.
Each method has its time and place, but teaching each method like it's the only one out there is a great way to shove people into a singular mindset which might get them or those under them killed in a few years when the next conflict starts.
As someone with no weapon or tactical training whatsoever who entered here out of curiosity, blind dumping into a room without checking ~93% of the area just to stare into a corner sounds borderline su*c*dal, and unreasonable to ask to any teammate.
Same. I cannot understand how the blind dump was something that was ever even considered
The first guy in the movement is to draw fire away from the door so the rest of the team can enter and destroy the source of fire. Basically, one sacrifice for the whole team.
I always wondered this myself before CQB or Urban Fighting Course in the Infantry.
Dumping or Flooding is based on the flash bang to stun before hand.
For hostage/police scenarios its great.
For military tactics its deeply flawed.
Excellent question the answer is angles, the deep pockets of rooms is an area where scared people who know someone is after them often go and these locations are impossible to clear from the outside of the room. The idea of room dumping a ton of guys checking the corners first is to find these people. The theory is as you collapse into your corner you fast scan 50% of the room with a focus on the corner. What really happens is people hard focus on the corners and ignore most of the room. A good way to see for yourself is to grab two thick books and stand them upright a couple inches apart. Use a flashlight starting right next to one of the books and make an arc to the other book and take note of the areas that never get hit with the flashlight beam.
So what if you gotta clear ten rooms and three have bad guys!?
Maybe one man gets to go home alive!?
As a counter strike player of 9 years with ESEA Main tier experience (and have practiced with former Advanced tier players), all of our bomb site executes for T side revolved around mapping out the optimal pathing for our entry fragger so that he could get as much information as possible, and make as much space on the bomb site as possible (two of the biggest objectives for the entry fragger is disrupting crossfires set up by the enemy team, and getting as close to them as possible to pull attention away from the 2nd and 3rd man in) BEFORE THEY DIE. Basically, entry fraggers were expected to accept that they would die nearly every single time during a site exec and it was the job of the players BEHIND HIM to use the information gained from his death to trade kills and take site control.
If you watch pro counterstrike matches, you will notice that 99% of the time WORLD CLASS entry fraggers will at most get 2 MAYBE even 3 guys if they are super lucky (and 3 is considered absolutely insane) before they are killed. If dying as the first man in is basically accepted as fact in a video game I can't imagine the horror of being the pointman in a real CQB scenario.
Sorry for the long winded explanation but its mindblowing to me how the danger of being a pointman is very viscerally realized when playing tactical team FPS games.
This is my first time seeing your videos ( I recently left the Teams) . But we also need to talk about the difference between dynamic and deliberate clearance techniques. Two TOTALLY different ways to approach the building . Dynamic (hostage rescue ) is fast - your life is less valuable , Deliberate ( slow and methodical). With Deliberate you won’t rush in but “pie” the door (fatal funnel) and check for threats, or eliminate them, before dumping into the room.
@-FreeDonuts sorry for my ignorance , but is that what he designed the videos for ?
Not a veteran or LEO but many years ago I was taught this very thing. We called it 'cutting the pie'.
If the threshold is open, thats what pieing is for. This is already known and applied.
But I definitely can see the value for a closed door.
The problem with stepping center, is that the first man HAS to be so attuned to whats taking place in the room that he does not cause a fatal funnel. This is why the threshold evaluation is ultimately more successful, especially if breaching or fragging is not used prior to a dynamic entry. Its such a catch 22 for different agencies. SEALs, green berets, Rangers, Marsoc etc, train to a Standard that most LE agencies will never ever arrive at. SWAT and EST do it so often that they know what works depending on the structure. Also, military units use intelligence to mock up their targets and study structures specifically to know where blind spots are likely to occur, allowing the pie method, and cornering to be so swift that the next man up knows what they would likely do during an entry or dumping. This was such a great video! Its just tough to really say what the STANDARD is from spec ops/mil unit to LE. But I truly enjoyed this video.
Retired Master Sergeant USAF
Absolutely the single worst problem to solve in police work is CQB. Going into a unknown room, building etc with a determined and armed suspect(s) knowing youre coming into a fatal funnel. That suspect in the center of the room is 100% the #1 guys priority and responsibility. Well done sir and I have been saying this for so long till Im blue in the face. If only we could have the drones, cameras, and equipment that most SWAT teams have to solve these problems. But dynamic crisis entries are extremely dangerous and absolutely nothing will negate that when the “ standard” applies! Police work and soldiering is a dangerous occupation! Not for the faint of heart!
Yep!
The beginning of this says everything…. Always be adaptive… regardless what you do at the end of the day the inherent risk of getting hit even if you do it by the books can and will get you killed.
Israeli Duvdevan unit of the Commando Brigade has adopted similar tactics since the early 90s. Their units do not train to rush into the room. Their primary goal is to eliminate as many visible targets outside of entry points before entering and clearing the corners.
Amen
Great video! I by accidentally did this exact action on a very similar scenario/room and enemy setup at a CQB course just this past weekend and a fellow student who felt like he knew it all called me out on it and said it was doctrinally wrong that upon the center step or even engagement before center step you have to go immediately thereafter and not shoot more guys right before you come in the door, ie. doing exactly what the seal did essentially. Remember this video isn't about a center step vs just dumping, it was about how the seal took shots on the center step and instead of going right in, he actually pie and assessed more beyond that and took out another threat from outside the room as he proceeded to make entry. The current doctrine is that you after center step regardless of contact or not, you make entry and dump at that point. CQB really is crazy in that you'll go to one instructor who was a tier 1 guy and he'll tell you one thing and then you'll go to another of same pedigree and he will tell you another. So to clarify the doctrine is center step then if contact you are putting as many shots as you move forward until muzzle breaches doorway, then you have to dig your corner and stop shooting until you are in the room. The other confusing part is you only are supposed to get that center step and nothing more and can't keep assessing after an engagement in the center step position, so in this scenario the doctrine literally says after he engaged the guy at the center, he was to enter and dig his corner and basically take shots from that guy in the back left of the room;(
Great video! I think what might make people more agreeable to this method is simply calling it “checking center” or something like that vs. “stepping center”, as people probably associate stepping center with standing in the fatal funnel, even though this is more nuanced than that.
The method that gets you to keep going ultimately will always be the correct one.
Very true!
Is it? If you keep using a method while not meeting major resistance, you won't know whether it was the method. Police meets no armed resistance 99,9% of the time.
Your stepping centre for room clearing is very close to what I learnt as a style of room entry in the Australian army.This was an excellent well explained presentation in my view as it was balanced and gave options.No bragging or grandstanding.
Agreed, it doesn't matter how fast you enter if you get clapped. It also matters not how many rounds you can fire that are not accurate...
One thing I never quite understood is in the first example, why instead of stepping centre would someone not slide from one side to the other? If there's a 'bad guy' right in the centre, it adds a moving target that is moving away from the corner your buddy is going to be looking and shooting around, effectively making you a harder target and drawing fire away. If there's no one you've cleared a portion of the room and can flow in with more confidence, needing to spend less time focusing on areas where a delay like that could get you killed.
Yeah it’s a good option, I don’t think there was space at the end of the hallway
When I was taught in the fleet by my unit was side step check fatal funnel. Then move to corners. You didn’t want to be on the street for to long. Once inside we would pie every room before entering trying to collapse as much as we could before making going through doorway.
This basically boils down to a typical "on paper" vs "in practice".
If you step center, you control your exposure... If you dump, you directly expose yourself to everyone in the room.
Yep
Great video highlighting professional application of pieing off and the use of a forced centre check where situation dictates.
Thanks!
What’s funny about this is I played this mobile game where I controlled a little swat team or whatever (idk the lingo lol) and I learned exactly what you just explained through trial and error. I quickly learned that the dumping method I’d always seen on tv doesn’t work effectively and often killed my guys. Very interesting video!
I feel like most people critique others CQB tactics based on what they see in movies and shows based on tier 1 units that mostly focus on hostage rescue and HVT. And in the case of most civilians it’s not like they’re rocking out with flash bangs and frags. The tactics that can be utilized by everyday people would be way different considering the different situation/mission set and the kind of gear that’s accessible. I think people forget that the way guys execute this stuff is based on the goal and tools at hand.
I agree
I went to SWAT school last year for a large city and it was taught the "wrong" way. My department teaches it that way as well to Patrol. I dont see the dumping into rooms being taught anymore except for HRT. Ive been to a quite a few trainings over the last few years to as in outside instructors and I think threshold clearing is pretty standard right now in LE as in whats being taught.
Significant units dumped the buttonhook method over a decade ago, esp. when faced with dudes with explosive vests. Even stepping center may not reveal all as much as swinging further over before entering. There is no reason to enter that room (bullets can travel much faster then operators) until you have seen a significant portion and all that is left is blind corners, and even those can be dealt with with a peak prior to entry. Limited penetration after a good look, then flow to clear. I sure hope swat has learned this by now.
CQB rules
1. Are the walls penetratable by what youve got?
2. Is there a fist sized opening or larger you can throw a grenade through?
If no to both call in airstrike/mortars
lol
There is a difference between Police and Military room clearing, some think they're the same. Also, you don't want to keep repeating the same tactics allowing the enemy to get inside your OODA Loop
what you described (and what is seen in the footage) is actually exactly how I was trained for TDF/QRT.
Success at execution of this doctrine was based on how much time we had to spare on drilling it in.
we also did our drills in semi-completed construction sites so we actually got a good simulation for complicated and unique layouts - and a good way to keep us fresh rather than getting used to working a given layout that gets repeated round after round.
This was ALWAYS SOP with our team! We also called it threshold assessment. Always engage the bad guy from outside of the room! Even if you are engaging from bounding rooms. Are there really people out there that say this is wrong? Why go directly into a room, if you can engage or call out from the exterior?! Just safer that way. I don't care if they flush the dope down the toilet. Officer safety is priority. Only thing I can think of is a hostage or active shooter situation that would change this, however, I can't say I have been faced with a real life scenario where QRF was deployed to end a hostage situation. Luckily, it always ended peacefully. And have (thank god) not had to deal with... I am not even going to finish that sentence. Heck, we even call out from the exterior of a structure sometimes as well. Breach the door, assess and call out if we see bodies. Never allow the bad guy to control the situation? Just my opinion, experience and training.
Fighting from the threshold is a good idea. Stepping center and stand there in the fatal tunnel not so much a good idea
Jeff Gurwitch has a good video on this. Most of those flood tactics were adopted from hostage rescue tactics. Funny enough I was taught by former mil turned federal SWAT that they do this now. Everything in this video coincides.
Nice!
“Slow and methodical” is the new way to room clear. Brits have been doing it since early 2000s. clear as much from the out side as possible, “let the room breath” and such.
As a long time army infantry man in Ranger regiment, all I can say about room clearing or gunfights in general is everything is situation dependent
I appreciate this video. I’ve been looking up videos on CQB and this one is by far the most concise and easiest to understand on the topic. Thanks for breaking it down.
Though I have no experience, I've seen a lot of footage over the years, and in seeing a lot of bad things happen with CQB situations, and attempting to apply concepts from it in game scenarios or while playing a video game, it really made me realize that there is absolutely no right answers in CQB besides whatever gets you in and out of the situation in one piece and without having to go back in a second time to the same situation. Training gives you an idea of what to expect, but those rules aren't meant to be followed, they're just meant to inform how you think about approaching it. You can follow something to a T and still wind up dead to something you didn't expect because a tactic alone doesn't account for ways someone else might try to subvert it, or even just the flat out reality that you aren't the only person with a say in how a gunfight goes.
When I was first taught basic CQB, my instructor gave me two rule to fall back on.
1. Don't CQB as much as possible
2. Goal is to survive, not clear the room as fast as possible
So, whenever I am confused, I fall back to those two rule. Later on I start to realize rule two doesn't always check out, and unfortunately it means we are still at mercy of RNG.
At Marine Corps MCT, I had one of the last companies to receive MOUT. We're all POG, the actual door kickers go to ITB. We at MCT learned the first man always buttonhooks while dumping. If you come in from the left, you look into the room right, fan the entire room to the left. Then the only man who gets shot is the point because if a contact was direct front or at an angle, they would engage the point man before he enters the room. This is exactly what they taught us no combat Marines to keep ourselves alive in urban fighting.
Just like in an FPS, its all about who shoots (and hits) first. And angle positioning. Being further from an angle gives you an advantage because you can see and react quicker.
It should be noted that a big reason dumping the room is so effective is that the speed makes it easier overcome the emotional resistance of walking into a room that could have people ready to shoot you in it. Where a more cautious approach can make someone hesitate leading to errors.
It feels like similar trade offs to condition 1, 2, and 3 for hand gun carry. Where how much experience someone has will effect the preferred strategy.
At the point of Execution you will never walk into a room.
Each tactic depends on the situation. Threshold clearing, if time, is by far the safest way to go! In my humble opinion. Good videos, as always man!
I’ve done ALERRT CQB and that’s pretty much what we were taught. Center line, clear the center when moving sides checking the line of site in corners, then button hook inside on corners.
Pretty much what you said at the six minute mark. Clear the threshold.
I posted clips of it on my page if you scroll through, along with shoot, move and communicate drills recently. Instructor allowed videos and photos.
Stepping center is most preferred because those who prefer dumping ain’t around to prefer anything anymore.
6:47 I genuinely thought everybody knew this, like, it’s common sense, clear as much of that room before making entry, then hit your hard corners and flow in
Ideally: Learn/train different techniques, actually understand which situations/environments the techniques excels at, apply the correct techniques for each part/component of a complex scenario. There is no one size fits all standard. However in general infantry due to limitations of training time, money, and working based off the minimum soldiers physical and mental ability a generalized standard is formed that in most situations has a reasonable successful result, ergo the standards you see for generalized infantry. Complex standards require complex training. Standards need to survive human behaviour.
have your teams play door kickers 2 for a day or two, taught me more about cqb chaos than I'd like to admit
100 percent agree with the entire video, EXCEPT, the part where you say CQB is the least likely skill needed in law enforcement. 34 years here, and have used it many times.
@matth7029 your right you know everything. You must be on of the bearded forearm tattoo guys he's talking about.
@matth7029 no brag just facts. You wouldn’t know.
@@matth7029I won't be telling myself anything I'll actually be performing it. You have no idea because you just sit in your mom's basement
@@matth7029 you obviously have many years of law enforcement experience to draw from.
@matth7029 🤣🤣🤣🤣 i knew it. Running your suck and you have no idea what you're talking about. An outsider looking in making accusations about something they know nothing about. I knew it and could tell by the way you were talking you have no idea you think you do and I think it's funny.
We were taught that every technique we are learning in CQB is just a tool in our toolbox, combat is dynamic, you should never limit yourself to these technique like a robot, rather use your common sense and intuition and act based of how things develop during combat, how you approach them is by either using one or more of your tools in your skill toolbelt, or an alteration of them to a degree, the aim is to minimize risk and win the fight, if doing something else gets that done, do it
People who have never done live CQB with a real enemy have very different ideas about what they are capable of doing under fire than those of us who really have done it. If you haven’t already, Google the Fallujah after action report written by then Sgt Catagnus. You’ll see that it aligns closely with what you’re teaching here.
Damn I haven’t !! Looking into it!
@@Forward_Concepts obviously not as civilian or police oriented, but there’s some parts on “slicing the pie” and dealing with casualties that are particularly relevant
I think the only argument for rushing in is that if you know there is someone in there and they are distracted, you could probably use the element of surprise better.
Actually another potential one, not for the people involved but on a more military-wide scale, if that's the doctrin, you maybe lose more people but you probably get that room cleared relatively fast and you don't have continuing standoffs.
I don't have a problem with this it's just a variation of "pieing" a corner. If a door is closed thats one thing if its open there's no reason to not take care of what you can see with out getting into the fatale funnel.
When I was in the army we were taught dumping in was the official method. However, we were told that in reality it was frag and follow, because we wouldn't be sent in if hostages mattered.
I don't believe there's a single person on Earth against checking as much of the room as possible before going in.
Great video. This is very well made and very intentionally thought through. We appreciate the knowledge!
While some things are wrong, I'm a personal believer in you have to do what works for you or your team specifically. People are different. You can't have an unchanging standard.
In the Marines, we’d practice deliberate room entry more often. Dynamic would come into play as well depending on the situation/ scenario. But more often than not, we’d do deliberate.
Outside assessment is always best- its the whole cutting room into "pie" - button hook is the slowest...unless you are breaching (explosives) try never to go in blind -
Everything is out the door once first contact is made. 1 man going for his corner takes sees enemy he will break off route and hit that enemy...2 and 3 need to know how to adjust.
Yeah not bad. With my entry method a button hook doesn’t exists…it will be a video at some point
from what I heard you dump in the room if you have the element of surprise which is generally the first room maybe second from there once everyone knows your in the building you pie before you go in but in general its better to pie before going into any room also dumping is when you need to speed things up generally things like hostage rescue but if your gonna kill everyone anyways fucking throw nades, flashes, and most definitely pie
people forget battle tactics are a general idea on what to do its not a solid "has to be done this way" you can make adjustments to make the plan work remember nothing goes to plan always adapt and improvise
lol nice 👍🏼
My unit’s SOP is to dig the corners and pie the room off as much as possible before dumping in
I always thought that much safer for 1 and 2 man than immediately dumping blindly which’s what they taught me to do in OSUT
The problem with any of these cqb discussions is tailoring the scenario to the technique. Instead, you should learn to tailor the technique to the scenario at the speed of life.
I can see how adopting ONE method for all makes training it and increasing competency easier. But it makes you inflexible. The two methods that I would advocate are “PIEING” the room. Used if you are looking/hunting for persons in a structure. There is no immediate rush to enter rooms. You do all your assessments and fighting from outside the room. Dynamic entry is when you are there to save lives and time matters (HR). There is no system that caters for a well trained adversary. Multi entry points may be the solution to confuse and place the subjects in the back foot, thereby giving you those vital few seconds to get your shots off first.
I agree that the method of training is to have a number of different viable options and having the ability to choose the best option in that moment
Great points about training with chaos. LE in general does too much compliant training, specifically in this environment. Get a high volume paint gun or Sim guns running against you and you’ll see a big difference in your response to threats.
Yep. Even blank guns cause a significant response
As a civilian I don’t judge or have any opinion on the quality of the tactics used. I am entertained and learned something I am happy.
Amen
As a current LEO, I can say no one that have trained with teaches dumping anymore thankfully. In my mind its an inherently bad tactic and I never do it. Thanks for talking about this!
Center is always checked by everyone entering even if your hooking you still cover the fatal front and front center before completing your maneuver
Great video! Always best to clear as much as you can from the outside by working the angles not exposing yourself to all angles from in the room at once… fight with what you can see, not with what you can’t see..
Back in the nineties I was being taught pie in the FFL, what seems to be the standard now is a blend of pie and what we used to call dynamic (dumping). From memory it's all on the first man to decide what he's going to do. We used to do a thing which i think was the most beneficial in learning CQB which was a kind of free form. A Barracks block would be setup with locker/beds as obstacles in random places and we were told to clear floors in ways other than how we'd been trained. To make it up as we went, and you learn pretty fast what shit is more likely to get you killed. I came to the conclusion the only way you can clear a building "safely" is by calling in the airforce. As for nobodies on the internet calling out tactics as wrong, they're teens or wannabes who think if you don't use specific jargon you never served, pat them on the head and point them to airsoft where they can cosplay all day.
lol nice 👍🏼
You should always pie the room from the doorway prior to entry.
Source: watching other people play Doorkickers 2