Hope you enjoy my video discussing the comments of Denis Villeneuve on the ending of Dune Part 2 and why he made the change that he did. I also talk about what this could mean for Dune Messiah. Let me know what you think down below.
First movie in years I actually went back to watch more then twice, if I wasn't married with kids and full time job I would go back every week, the movie was that good and I'm glad I went to spend my money's worth compared to the shitshow PedoWood has been producing since 2018.
I was very concerned at Chani's leaving Paul at the end of Part 2. Now I understand why Denis chose such a move. It will give their relationship a deeper commitment when they reunite. That way, the drama of her miscarriages and eventual success of bearing the twins will be even more poignant.
It will also make it moot how she was constantly pissed at "something" without her understanding the true bigger picture of him not having better alternatives. The tragedy is that she who should have been the first one to defend him was actually the first one to shun him based on surface perceptions.
@@Leonhart_93 And he doesn't bear any blame for failing to explain? Also, if a couple splits and reconciles over a misunderstanding, that doesn't make the split vanish.
@@EGRJ No but she was at his throat long before he made the final choice to drink the thing. He even says "no matter what I do, you still won't trust me", to which she is like "that's because you are an outsider". I think they made her really crappy in this adaptation, she makes no sense. Like literally the only Fremen that is "wise" to see something else here? I don't buy it at all. In fact the choices of the Fremen make the most sense. They want to turn Arakis into a green paradise. That's impossible without winning the spice war over the planet.
I think using a character like chani as a tool to get at herbert’s intention (that didn’t always come across in the writing) and in turn, developing her as a character (which I like) is smart.. I think the actual issue in part 2 is we lose some of paul’s development and his intense struggle to walk the path with the least harm done: what we don’t see enough in the movies, in my opinion, is how paul is walking a razors edge in his ability to see outcomes and his rather opaque behavior is often very much guided by choosing the lesser of two (or infinite) evils. he IS flawed and yes power corrupts (these aren’t new themes) but I would have liked to see more of what we don’t see in the dialogue which I know is tricky because that’s harder to portray in film. I also think the decision to skip the time jump and the death of paul and chani’s son is a big part of the reason paul seems like he loses himself after he drinks the water of life. without the revenge factor (a very human motivation, if not always noble) after his son’s death it seems like paul drinks the kool aid and decides he’s gonna go sicko mode on the empire and I do think it does somewhat of a disservice to paul. he is trying to prevent the obliteration of an entire people and he knows the jihad will also bring the death of millions. he’s not perfect. he fails at being the hero. he’s incredibly manipulative. but in an attempt to show his flaws that herbert didn’t think came across as well as he wanted, this film also mischaracterizes him to some extent. I don’t think you have to choose between those two things in what you choose to portray in the film. I think you could have explored his fall from heroism and his struggle to do right by a people but I don’t think we got both. at least not yet. anyway those are just my thoughts.
What a wonderful mind you have. If I may be so bold as to add to it… The very pieces you note are missing from Parts 1 & 2 could/ should be integrated into Part 3. Without those very plot points you mention, Part 3 would likely be FAR too “talky” compared to the first two installments. Those “action” pieces you mention should be put into part 3.
@@CaravanseraiSouthValley I don’t disagree and I do think denis will shift some things around in messiah but I do think having some context missing before drinking the water of life makes him seem somewhat of a space hitler out of nowhere which we know is a bit reductive in terms of who paul is.
Tbf drinking the Water of Life IS the turning point for Paul in the book as well. He changes afterwards, and not for the better. No, he's not a space Hitler but he definitely becomes more tyrannical as his power skyrockets.
@@squamish4244 for sure you’re not wrong but I think we miss some nuance of that shift in the film in my opinion. it’s still effective and I still loved it but I wish more of that tapestry of decisions he’s always trying to thread came across a bit more.
@@thixiemattelI agree, but then you have to add more exposition. It was already a 2.5 hour film, and he was never going to get three films greenlit. Maybe another scene could have communicated the nuance of Paul seeing humanity's stagnation and destruction without the jihad. Otherwise, Denis did about as good as could be expected for two long films that adapted such complex source material.
IMO Villeneuve missed one of the best lines in the book Dune. Jessicia said, "While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.
And that's where it was wrong. The audience like Chani doesn't have the bigger picture. Paul pretty much choose the best path he had available with his powers and what he had seen. In the end in the books his rise leads to a better future than the alternative would have been. And in the books Chani is by his side and actually understands that he needs to do some things.
My sense is that what the (mostly book-purist) critics dislike about the Part II ending (and much else in the first Dune book's two-film adaptation) relates to the big difference between the "omniscient narrative" of the book(s) and the inevitability (especially in a Villeneuve film) of the audience having to go through most of the story looking at developments through the eyes of a typically poorly informed character (usually a woman or outsider in his films) who struggles to make sense of what's going on. No one should be surprised that the films haven’t yet revealed what exactly Paul has seen, nor that Chani might have a more complex and relatable internal reaction to the events at the end of "Dune" (and of Part II). The ultimate payoff in a "show, don't tell" film adaptation of a "tell-the-reader- everything- in-advance" book will come when the full nature of the modern Greek tragedy of the Dune story becomes clear (presumably by the end of the next film adapting "Dune Messiah") - i.e. the horrible dilemma facing Paul in trying (but failing) to both figure out how to avoid the worst excesses of the jihad and then to "do what must be done" (at great personal sacrifice) to pre-empt an even greater human tragedy.
Actually the movie is much heavy handed with the "tell, don't show" than the books are, with Chani basically painting Paul as the ultimate villain, which he was not. And the confidence in her baseless decision in the movie was quite upsetting. She didn't even asked him about his movies, she just turned her back on him, never leaving any doubts in the minds of the audience.
Sorry, book Chani is a much wiser character than this movie version. That’s why she accepts her position as consort. She knows she has Paul’s heart even though she doesn’t wear the crown. Chani is the one who pressures Paul to sleep with Irulan so he has an heir. It’s a far departure from the movie version.
I don't know if it is "wiser," per say, but it is different. I think Denis is trying to express a POV of skepticism among the Fremen using a central character. Without that, it paints with very broad strokes that generally all the Femen are on board with the mission to themselves become colonizers and the atrocities that entails and that all who oppose are just schemers out for selfish aims. This allows there to be prominent Fremen voices of dissent.
Yea any girl that is raised hardened and skeptic will automatically accept an alien as their lord n savior n lover. Yea nah. Book version accepts it all blindly, no a real scenario there will be skeptics and villenueve did it perfectly.
@LuisMontenegro-ye1wl Nah, it makes no sense that her of all the people is the first one to never give Paul any trust. Without understand the context of what he has to do, she is the first one to shun him and run away from him, even when everyone else trusted him with their lives. And in the end Paul did choose the best future of all the possible ones he saw. If there was a better future than what he did, the author never made it clear.
@@Leonhart_93 She did trust Paul. She trusted him when he said he would not exploit the prophecy and would not become an occupier/colonizer himself, which we know that is exactly what the jihad ends up doing.
@@AdanALW No, she did not trust him at all, always wary of him from the start when others started calling him "Lisan-al-gaib". Even before he drank the thing, she kept giving him jabs, to the point where he actually said "No matter what I do you won't still trust me", to which she answered "because you are an outsider". How crappy is that? She had nothing likable about her in the movie, nothing redeeming. Compared to the book where years pass with them together and she understands him, the movie completely failed in giving a convincing reason why he he cares so much that he tried to appease her until the end. And when he took the "water of life", she had absolutely no idea about what he was going to do with it. None. And yet she started shunning him starting from that moment, and never even stopping to ask him anything.
Haven't read the books so I'm not all capable of saying which I thought was better but I thought this was a very powerful and effective choice to have Chani be the conduit for the audience questioning Paul's choices and anger at the result. I know some of the later story beats of later books but I think this change has them setup for a better 3 part to the story than would otherwise be the case. Additionally it has the side benefit of making Chani into a more active and strong character than she has been in other adaptations that also syncs with audience expectations around the treatment of women in such works of fiction. Not in a ham fisted Disneyesque way but one that feels true to the story and like something and an actual person might do.
By keeping young Alia out of these movies, Denis compressed the few years worth story from the book into less than a year. Based on the actress that he used for the voice of Alia, and will likely use for the more grown Alia that will appear in Messiah- I would expect the third film to jump forward somewhere closer to 155-18 years forward and tell another time-compressed version of Messiah. I really enjoyed what he did with Dune and part 2 so far. I forgive the things changed as he told a more "grounded" story that is reasonable for non-book readers to follow and enjoy. And the things he did change or omit aren't going against the story in the book- just streamlining and keeping to the literal stuff that can easily be seen. I really look forward to see what he does with the third movie, and I have very high expectations he will do a great job. I am confidant that anyone who comes to the books after these movies will get the story they saw and so much more. But I also really liked the screen and book versions of Annihilation- and those were significantly more different from each other.
I will say even tho I didn’t like the changes I do love the movie but I am really worried about dune messiah bc he said this is supposed to close the Paul story but the book sure doesn’t not till the 3rd book
I agree. I am a bit worried that he will try to make Paul into some kind of hero, even though in the books he was clearly a tragic figure and a failure. The hole book series is a criticism on absolute power and using religion and superstition to control people.
@@ethirnandor5439 why would u think that when in dune 2 its clear paul has become the tyrant and will be responsible for billions of deaths. Have u even seen dune 2?
Not part III, Dune Messiah. Dune part III would make no sense, since Dune has already been adapted into one 5,5 hour long movie and divided into two parts. Dune Messiah is epilogue
"I have to admit that without the Fremen, it would have not been a victory." "Victory? Victory you say? Not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Holy War has."
I mean essentially yes it is for “modern hollywood” it’s to grasp the audience’s attention. It’s also kind of a hard message to grasp (not all messiah/ god like figures are good they can be destructive) having Chani be that obvious out-speaking voice kind of solidifies that theme of Paul being the villain not the hero. I also am not thrilled with the change but nonetheless Denis changed it in a way that can still drive the storyline for dune messiah :)
5:08 - what’s your source for that? That is a rumor that simply isn’t true. Herbert already had Messiah written in principle before Dune was published in 1965. Stop perpetuating this falsehood before corroborating anything.
@@JDB62- yeah he had it all pretty much written but his publisher wanted him to split it up into two parts. Cortex is misleading people and spreading this stupid rumor.
@@JDB62-yes, he did. But people keep spreading that around like it’s fact when it’s not 😂. Frank wrote Dune & Dune: Messiah with parts of children of dune already.
Thank you for this. I like your predictions and points. It has been so fun to speculate how DV will approach the Messiah film. I like your prediction that involves Chani stopping a plot to kill Paul because it's actually consistent with the first book (p. 482) when she casually kills someone who came to challenge Paul in the sietch. So that would be cool. I LOVED the bold choices Denis Villeneuve made. The film made a big impact. And also, haters have the loudest voices: I think most viewers loved the love story and the character choices. Love the books (Ive read them several times). Love the films. Love the fact that Villeneuve can surprise all of us. I hope DV continues to be bold, unafraid, and unapologetic about his choices because he is damned good at what he does.
Chani in Dune Messiah is flat, two dimensional, passive and just plain boring. The book is going to be hard to adapt in to an interesting film and getting Chani interesting in Dune part two pays off in the third movie. He's also going to have to change a lot of stuff.
I actually agree when it comes to Chani in Messiah and I think that's another reason why he made those changes early on like you said. Gonna be interesting to see how he tackles it all.
I thought the ending Stunk. It looked like " ok! go with your dumb girlfriend, I am taking the worm, you find your own ass home." that's how it clumsily that came off. Chani supposed to be a Fremen, not really afraid of war, and deeply into the Freemen religious beliefs and superstitions. When we hear her blaspheming and talking atheistic BS trash,, Her life would had been shorter by the book's standards, as she would had a Cyrsknife in the back and/or her throat would had been slit by one. She would have gone out as an apostate. none of it improved Hurberts Ideas, and it smell so much more like DEI, and Villeneuve has said he was head that way in a big way. Your point, about Directors, inevitably, having to adapt source books for the screen, thats not happening here. What I saw just dragged me out of the movie theater, kicking and screaming, back to 2024 USA. Say it brings Frank Herbert's idea to some kind of clarity is, a con job. We seen director before elevated by taking great works, GOT, to the screen and get pump up as if they wrote the great work themselves, as long as they stayed in the boundaries of the authors vision, people thought they were geniuses. And then we see director dashed on the rock, burnt at the stake, for not just adapting, but taking full license to change a story. This is my personal warning to Denis Villenuve, if you want to get high of your own farts fine, fart on dune ... Dune will end your Career.
I absolutely love the books, I am a diehard fan of Dune, but I don’t have any problems with any changes. I thoroughly enjoyed this movie and I thought the score and cinematography as well as the performances from a lot of great actors really added some heaviness and depth to this movie. It’s not perfect, no movie is. Other than Lawrence of Arabia, which influenced Frank Herbert to write this book. I love that it comes full circle because Dune (regarding visuals).. Denis is paying homage to that film with this film. I think he actually said it was his favorite movie ever. The storming of Aqaba is the best thing ever captured in film without CGI. It is so epic.
I like his choice for us to understand Paul's ultimate hypocrisy through Chani. Book Chani didn't really have a lot of memorable character to me, although it's been about a decade since i read it.
The Paul and Chani relationship in these movies just hits wrong for me. There is no definitive "they are a devoted couple" moments. In fact, their relations ship feels way closer to the teen movies were the unpopular boy gets help from the super popular girl to become popular himself. And then the boy gets too popular and forgets himself but in the end he picks the girl who helped him. That is far more what we see in the films than even the explanations in this video.
@@anthonycameronnajera8471 Cant buy me love, some kind of wonderful, shes all that, say anything, & love dont cost a thing to name a few. Love don't cost a thing and cant buy me love are most dead on imho. There are about 20 other movies with this plot tho (unpopular guy gets popular girl to help him, becomes a popular guy and forget the girl that helped him achieve it)
I was disappointed that he dropped 3 out of 4 major plots. I would have LOVED seeing a small child moving and talking as an adult and killing the Baron done with modern techniques. I guess that - and the suicide attacks the freeman's used - are not PC enough anymore in our modern world even though that would have made them look even more unstoppable and give them the capability for cruelty that will lead to the Jihad. The movie was visually stunning, but there was not a lot left of the story.
I fully understand the necessity to make Chani the voice of opposition when adapting this book into a movie. The book grants the reader access to the consciousness of its characters and through Paul’s consciousness, we experience his conflict with his ascent to power and the upcoming jihad, his attempts at stopping it until he realizes it’s much bigger than him and that he can’t. This kind of complex internalization simply isn’t the domain for cinema. Not fluid cinema anyway. So it’s necessary to bestow this conflict into an external source. And because the only character suitable to impose this upon is Chani, she’s the one who gets fundamentally changed. The movie version of Chani is a complete invention of the filmmakers and does not represent Herbert’s vision in any meaningful way. Again, while I understand that narrative necessity of this action, it comes with the tradeoff of erasing the original purpose of this character. In the book, Chani is Paul’s internal peace. The two of them both lose their fathers to this campaign providing the opportunity for these characters to comfort each other. Chani understands Paul as an outworlder as her dad was also an outworlder and as her outworlder father was in a leadership role within the Fremen, she sees Paul being the rightful man to take that position. Chani and Paul’s relationship is born out of deep empathy in this way. Chani becomes Paul’s ride or die, she too wishes for the freedom of her people, she provides her lover with valued counsel during his times of crisis. She understands the politics of marriage as all Fremen women do. The movie version of this character just has none of this. She’s little more than an avatar to voice Paul’s conflict and I consider this to be a substantial downgrade for her character. She’s vastly less interesting and complex and so is her relationship with her people and her lover. I also don’t think Denis is any real position to truly adapt Messiah going forward. The movie might include the title, but the chess pieces aren’t in place to really tell the story of Paul and Chani’s relationship as it is in the book where Chani is Paul’s most trusted confidant. I also don’t think Denis being too modest of a filmmaker to include a toddler Bene Gesserit bumming people out really has the sand to present us with a story with a fish-man floating in a spice tank and a shape-shifting imposter as it’s antagonists (not to mention a resurrected Duncan Idaho), but that’s a different conversation. Again I think Denis will give us an excellent movie and it will probably even have a lot of the same themes and broad plot elements, but he’s clearly telling his own story. When I hear people say that this adaptation is an improvement to Chani as a character, I really think those people don’t know what they’re talking about.
There is even a scene in part 2 that I can actually point out as being poor character writing. It’s the scene that immediately follows Gurney revealing his knowledge of the whereabouts of the Atreides atomic weapons. This new knowledge completely changes the power dynamics of the Fremen’s campaign against the Harkonnen. In the film Chani has two conflicts that she’s navigating; the first is the subjugation of her people at the hands of the Harkonnen (it’s expressed explicitly as the prolog of the first movie). The second conflict is her lover’s entanglement of her people’s prophecy and the potential loss of her people’s identity in following Paul (this conflict is an inversion of the filmmakers). This new information about the atomics has the potential to solve both of Chani’s dilemmas. The atomics can be used to destroy the means of the Harkonnen’s control over her people and can be done in a way that doesn’t require the deification of Paul. And yet the next scene is of her in a tent with Paul expressing frustration and jealousy because of Paul’s ability to end both conflicts. Do the writers think making her an unintelligent woman with tactical illiteracy who would rather be upset than seeing her people free without having to worship her man really makes Chani a more compelling character? Because I don’t.
I'll just wait to see how Dune Messiah will fit in all of this. I do understand what Denis did and it fits the narrative. But he also made Irulan to be "the best student Gias Helen Mohiah had" lol. I mean. ....
@@Andre_77 true, we don't know that (yet) in this context. But I think Denis has his feminist agenda in Dune. Not saying it's bad. But the women he has chosen to be the most powerful are not book accurate. But hey, I'm here for the adaptation . All I'm saying is, so far, these script choices are not making so much sense in regards of Messiah and the role Chani and Irulan play. That's why I said "let's wait and see how it all fits".
@@lordcrunk4790 You are contradicting your self, You clearly stated that SHE (Chani) does not believe Paul is the Messiah, so if that's the case why would she call him out, she has no reason too. Who she does call out is Jessica & the Bene Gesserit sisterhood, that's who she believes is spreading the prophecy lies to enslave them, not Paul himself. On the contrary, Paul is constantly telling Chani, Stilgar & all the Fremen that his not the Messiah & only wants to fight with them to take down the Harkonnen so that Arrakis can be there's again. If she is hearing all this from Paul why would anybody blame her for having romantic feelings & dating him? That's not being a hypocrite!
One problem i had with dune 2. Paul should have looked a litte sunburned. His face was slightly pudgy compared to the first film and was incredibly pale. Would have added more realism i think. 6 months in the desert would change your appearance
I’ve been pissed off with the way dune 2 ended. I’m a big dune fan. But I totally forgot Paul’s prophecy will still come true. He’ll probably win her back in the first 30 minutes of Messiah. I’m sure that movie will be at least 4 years before it happens. They are taking a break. They probably won’t do pre-production until 2025 with principal photography maybe not starting until the end of next year or 2026. Then editing, marketing, etc.
I've got to say, I was disappointed with a lot of aspects of Dune 2. I think Villneuve took too many liberties and changed the characters that he had himself established in the first film. So he turns Stilgar into a Religious Fanatic instead of the pragmatist he was in the book, with this rather clumsy "North and South" divide plot tool he invented, he turns Gurney Halleck into a clumsy, brash loudmouth and Chani into an angry shrew instead of Stilgar's stoic and capable niece. Then he removes Thufir and the narrative of Harkonnen internal plotting even though he filmed it. A massive diminishment of an important character. Considering the nonsense included in the final cut, it's no excuse to say time restraints meant excluding these scenes were necessary. Leaving out the 2 year elapse of time was also rushed and clumsy because that would have established Paul's gradual assimilation into the Fremen (and Jessica's - whose approach was far more cautious in the books and portrayed a dislike of the BG and Imperium politics her and Paul were compelled to play to survive. In the film she became power mad and gleeful). Overall it looks to me like too much executive/producer interference which Denis can't admit to in public. A bit of a mess really. The scene where Halleck keeps shutting Chani up is stupid and clumsy like the portrayal of Halleck in this 2nd chapter. Embarrassing really. I've watched it several times wondering if my opinion would change but it hasn't. On the plus side there was some fabulous tension - such as the opening sequence with the Harkonnen in the desert and how the Fremen dealt with them and destroyed any trace of them. One criticism is that when the body fell, two BG trained people would not have reacted with such shock and verbal discomfiture. Plus Jessica could kill far more subtly than in that scene.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Any idea on why the Paul vs Feyd Rautha duel was done differently in the film than in the book? Whilst the book depicts Paul dominating the fight and near perfectly reading his adversary, he almost loses in the film which creates a major inconsistency with the rest of the movie (a skilled warrior is not supposed to struggle in a duel against a spoiled kid).
I like movies that are not crippled by typical crutches like comedic relief, political/social alphabet soup agendas, the 90 minute deadline, exagerated characters or acting, etc.
frank herbert deliberately wrote tDune with a plan already in place to write Messiah. The whole idea was to fool the audiance to love and support Paul and then wreck him in next book. This is actually what Herberts thoughts were.
I am for the changes. I think Villenueve realized Messah is not objectively a great book. And he wanted to put these changes in to fix the setup for more if he or someone else is going to.
I think had they had Alia be born, then Jessica could’ve been the one to question Paul. But I still say that I think that Chani was at the very least contemplating suicide at the end. Either that or she is starting to understand his perspective
Chani is an elite fighter, who is aware of the threat Paul is to her people, so she sleeps with him? That is just not believable, why doesn’t try and kill him instead.
Chani claims to love Paul. But every time he steps forward in leadership and manhood she gets mad and essentially tries to undermine him. But it makes sense she said “You will never lose me if you stay who you are.”
The only problem with just adapting Dune Messiah is that it isn't the end of Paul's story, or of Herbert's original conception of the Atreides saga. That only ends with Children of Dune at the earliest. (God-Emperor, technically, but that book IS truly unadaptable.)
@@MichaelClifford164 Paul screams at the Rev Mother and she calls Jessica abomination? That makes no sense. Even if she is talking about Alia. Bad writing.
He's going to take massive liberties with part 3. He primed us for them in the first two films. But one thing is for sure... Denis LOVES a secret baby twist. We'll find out Chani was pregnant with baby Leto when she walked away. Marie Fenring might make an appearance as well. So we'll have three younger characters, all the same age.
I loved both movies. The writing, acting, cinematography and more for me easily outweighed any shortcomings. Personally, I could care less if the movies are loyal to the books. I loved the books, but Villeneuve has shown yet again that he and his team are outstanding story tellers. And IMO Dune 1 and 2 are indeed outstanding stories!
Villeneuve's changes made an already straightforward story even more plain. Part 2 reduced it to a simple revenge story sprinkled with the tired old trope of question who ever is in power because rebels are always the good guys.
Alas, that is Villeneuve's achilles' heel, but he doesnt see it that way. As he claimed himself multiple times, he doesnt need/care for story. All he needs is visual poetry. He doesnt like dialogues, he doesnt care for character development. Narratively speaking, it is a messy movie, Part 2. I think he will do the same with Messiah. He needs his visuals and he will get them, since the novel proposes really breathtaking views and imagery.
I was not a fan of the way he wrote Chani in the ending. Chani learned from Jessica that concubines can be just as powerful and important as a wife. I mean the way Denis ended it there will be no Leto II and therefore no God-Emperor.....
Herbert already had characters in the novel that weren’t entirely on board with Paul’s manipulation of the Fremen. Both Jessica and Gurney Halleck were continually taken aback by his actions. In fact, Gurney was the one who was against using the atomic weapons and Jessica was opposed to the threatening of the destruction of the worm/spice lifecycle as a bargaining chip.
Makes sense on what you said about the ending and the continuation to Dune Messiah ! Can’t wait to see part 3 !! I’ve become a huge fan of the Dune Trilogy !!!
I think the change in Chani, her attitude against Paul taking on the mantle of the messiah was largely due to a desire by the writers and producers to address one of the main problems with the entire story of Dune: that Paul was a white savior for an embattled brown skinned (arabic) civilization. In the book, Herbert is just completely tone deaf to this. His focus was on the problems of autocracy, and messianic movements. To address this, they gave Chani the critical voice and pitted her against Paul's rise. This was fairly effective, but at a huge cost. The romance that blossomed between the two, the love and connection that a reader had with Chani is diminished by her constant anger and rebellion. To the point that, when Paul announces his marriage to Irulan, we don't feel Chani's sense of betrayal as she's already estranged from Paul. As you've stated, book Chani knew what was going to happen and supported it, further cementing the strength of their relationship and the attachment of the reader. I understand that it made Chani a "more interesting character", but I feel like we were robbed of what was such a critical part of the book: that romance. I think Denis hit a number of great notes in the movies. But, I remain convinced that Denis was not the right person to make these films. Denis is on record stating that he dislikes dialog. And boy, is that apparent here. Herbert was masterful at dialog, character development, and world building. Denis just chose to focus on the action and world building, throwing out almost all of the character development that we really needed. We hardly know these characters apart from their actions. Where Herbert painted with a velvet glove, Denis strikes with an iron fist. Even the "voice", which was described by Herbert as achieved through perfect yet subtle control of pitch and delivery has been rendered down into a staccato yelling and spitting of words. Another criticism: everything is brutalist in this movie, the architecture, the aesthetic, no matter what the culture. Even the city of Arakeen, which was not the one chosen by the Harkonnen, looked brutalist. Instead of a living city of sun shaded bazaars, water sellers, byzantine streets and walkways, the entire locale is covered with this plastic looking facade. And we see nothing of Arakeen. We don't tour its streets, we don't have dinner parties with its wealthy and influential. We don't even get world building where it's really needed. Dune should have been broken down into three movies. The first should have ended with the Atreides taking possession of Dune, exploring Arakeen, having the dinner party, and Jessica discovering the green house in the middle of the palace, with the warning note from Lady Fenring. The second movie could have begun with Geddi Prime, rendering its capital city in great detail, with scenes of guards living in hellish conditions, taking semuta with its drug music to deaden the despair. We could have gotten to know the Baron better, in his dialogues with Piter and introducing Feyd more organically. And as the Baron is monologing the agreement between his house and the emperor to bring a legion of the Sadaukar down upon the Atriedes, we cut to betrayal of Yueh and follow Paul and Jessica out of the destruction and into the dessert, and end with Paul and Jessica being accepted into the Fremen culture. Movie three starts with Paul's increasingly lethal raids on spice production, following along roughly with the sequence of events of this second movie. Feyd comes in, figures out the northern sietches, starts to become a real menace. There's more time, however, to explore Salusa Secondus, the unseen influence of the Spacing Guild and their refusal to allow satellites around the southern hemisphere. There's more time to develop Irulan and her relationship with her father. There would be more time for Christopher Goddamn Walken. And there'd be more time for Chani to play the foil against the white savior trope, and then move beyond that into the love affair that was so precious in the book. But that's not what happened, and this is the Dune movie that we'll have for quite some time. I doubt another attempt will be made at it in my lifetime. So, I suppose I'll enjoy what we have for what it is. And it is a great movie.
I read the books after watching the movies and was impressed with the choices Villeneuve made. He develops the female characters -- Jessica and Chani -- much more. I found that the weakest part of the books and think Villeneuve did a great job making them more real. I hope he'll do the same with Irulan in Part III -- she fades in the book a bit. I hope he will flesh out the tension between her and Chani more.
I think that for the time the books where written the female parts where quite modern: the women in Dune are no submissive housewife's as in most books and tv series of that era. That said, I don't mind at all giving Chaini a bigger role and making Liet Keynes a woman. It works for me on screen and does not effect the overall themes and story.
Btw: Irulan should fade. In the books her only role is in the histories she writes. Paul married her for political reasons and then deliberately sidelines her for the same reason. Her Bene Geserit training also is useless on him as he is trained himself, and especially after drinking the water of live.
I dont like change,its snells like feminist agenda to show defiant strong women the same b s. we are fed for years by movie industry. Character of Chani in movie and their romance makes no sense.
I went back and watched the scene and paid attention to the moment she left Paul. It wasn't the Holy War, it was Irulan. She was cool with him threatening to blow up the spice fields but couldn't deal with a political marriage. However, she's smart enough to question the prophecy and how it enslaves her people. All her questioning of Paul gaining power and she still follows him into battle. Also, Zendaya's performance lacked a level of nuance and warmth.
Dune pt 2 is one of those films I like less and less the more I see it/think about it. The cinematography is incredible, but the story, pacing ,and Zendaya's acting severely detract from that overall impression. Anyone saying Zendaya's portrayal was good is being disingenuous at best. She's one note and had zero chemistry with Timmy. Pace was completely off by wasting time in the second act and then blazing through the end. A woman willing to sacrifice a piece of her relationship for the good of the universe is a far more compelling character than one that gets mad and runs away on a worm. Denis has shown that he can be subtle and treat the audience as intelligent, but then he resorts to beating us over the head with the "fact" that Paul is actually the bad guy. We never get to see Paul rise as a true hero and then have that image twisted like in the books. Instead we're told over and over that he's actually the bad guy, completely ruining his character arc.
Well, you seem a bit arrogant to call a huge part of the movie going world "disingenuous". You look like a fool. I for one want to tell you, that no matter what your Mommy told you, you do not know everything. And you definitely do not have the right to speak for me. Or reprimand me from not thinking like you. Arrogance is creepy. But seems to fit you well.
@@LuisMontenegro-ye1wl this movie was made from a book. The energy they put into that stupid faction stuff they could have actually told the story from the books. The whole thing went away in the end and the only person still acting silly was his wife. There was sooooo much left out, so we could have what? Some arguments around the camp fire?
Hated all the changes that he thought they were necessary and the fact that he only likes the less fantastical elements of a Sci fi story like Dune. I can’t wait for Dune Emperor and the Butlerian Jihad.
Visually stunning, but a serious departure from the source material and, thus, very disappointing. Villeneuve chose to bow to today's social situation rather than honor Herbert's vision. As such, it's only saving grace for me as a long-time fan of the series was the incredibly strong performance by Austin Butler and the stunning visuals. Otherwise, meh.
I've been waiting for this movie for 23 years, ever since I read the book and watched lackluster Lynch's Dune. Yes, its main focus is Paul, but it is everything I needed it to be ❤
Well, you go find a 3-year-old actress that has the mental capacity of 1000's of Reverend Mothers. Should be easy. Was handled so well in 80's movie. A tiny girl with fake blue eyes running around with someone voicing over what she was thinking. It was distracting and was impossible to do right. Still is. We get all we need from Alia in this new movie. Her advice to Paul through Jessica was effective. And Paul killing the Barron was actually an improvement from the book. Paul had revenge on his mind. He was able to get it.
@@djozouavenul4930 Your opinion. I have read the book many times. You seem the type to be "ok" with things. It is 2024. Is a good time to improve things and not settle for ok...... OK?
The Spiderverse movies made me realize that Denis Villaneuve's Dune and Frank Herbert's Dune are in two different Duniverses. Both have the Canon Events: House Harkonnen slaughtering House Atreides, Paul drinking the Water of Life, Holy War. Everything that's not a canon event can change.
@@lordcrunk4790 The Fremen are descendents of long persecuted Zensunni wanderers. Persecuted people run into enough oppressors to write histories about them. Movie Chani is a history geek.
@@chazboxzero but Chani is a Sayadina in training. If Chani knew that the BG had sewn their own relevance into old Fremen lore, Sayadina lore, the trick is up! If she knew that all her "Fremen folklore and Sayadina ritual rights training" has been through espionage manipulations by Lady Jessica and previous BG agents over several generations, she should call out Lady J herself! This is the biggest character "cannot know that without breaking the charter moment." Book Chani does not know of past BG espionage of her ancestors lore and beliefs. Chani's beliefs.
No, she will not....... Denis is a huge fan of the Dune saga. Chani plays too important a part in the rest of the story to do that. Also, if anyone was paying attention. Paul already knows she "will come around". He already told Jessicas that. Also, in the book. Chani knew that Paul marriage to the Princess was just for show. She did not storm out. She was right next to Paul at the end. Denis made it more dramatic. A cliffhanger. But the plot of the Dune saga makes it impossible for them to not be together.
The arrogance of some directors is to treat audiences like 5 year olds. The fact he is talking about this means that a lot of people did NOT like it and are starting to talk about the massive issues this movie has. The bad script, the messy editing and the badly executed changes.
Whose arrogance? The director is a massive Dune fan and read the books multiple times since he was 15 years old. The movie has made more money than any film in 2024 thus far. Rotten tomatoes score is super high. DVD sales are in the top 5 for weeks and weeks. The only people who are unhappy are the book elitists who don’t believe any changes are good. And these elitists are making the most noise. But those who loved it are watching and rewatching and don’t need to scream how great it is. They show us with their wallets.
Not many at all. A very few. But you think you are many. Is internal. The votes are in on this movie. It is a great success. So, as you are probably used to hearing. You do not have a clue as to what you are saying. Your opinion is NOT the worlds opinion. Most people gave this movie great reviews. But you do show that you project your own arrogance well.
@@GamerplayerWT He is a massive Dune fan and he didn’t know that Dune, Messiah and Children of Dune were written as one single book and keeps claiming things Herbert never said😂
The real reason Chani left the moo a dibb's quasi cataract Paul atreides side is because he got himself a side piece he didn't even need. Major plot hole.
Dune 2 is a weak film and a bad Dune adaptation. Villeneuve has failed, no matter how much praise he gets from the people who think he can do no wrong.
It’s not a weak film in any way, shape or form. You might not like it, everyone has a different opinion. But if it’s a good adaptation is a different story.
Having now read the book. You are wrong my friend. I still find it to be both great cinema and an excellent adaptation, changes and all. Denis can do wrong, he is human like us all. He just hasn't done it yet.
They did not made those stupid changes because of audition not getting the plot. He changed it to make chani is a strong and independent feminist. Good visuals and CGI does not make a good movie. Chani is a terrible charecter Zendaya is an awful actress.
Well only one thing I disagree with. Chani is a great character. You just missed the message. Is alright. Dune was not written for your type. Stick to Marvel. All those characters are made for you. Shallow and transparent.
@@donny1960 Lol you are the who is stupid to understand Paul's change without the director drip feeding you all the information through an awful actress like zendaya. Unlike you I don't the holding hands to understand the themes of the movie. Grow up son.
@@alexmason8557 Well you seem to understand me about as much as the movie...... Not at all. You say one thing and do another. Common action these days among a certain type of person.
Hope you enjoy my video discussing the comments of Denis Villeneuve on the ending of Dune Part 2 and why he made the change that he did. I also talk about what this could mean for Dune Messiah. Let me know what you think down below.
I couldn’t believe a movie grabbed me in the way dune 2 did. Been a long time since I was invested like that.
First movie in years I actually went back to watch more then twice, if I wasn't married with kids and full time job I would go back every week, the movie was that good and I'm glad I went to spend my money's worth compared to the shitshow PedoWood has been producing since 2018.
For real...goose bumps and chills...rocketed it to my top 3 all time fav list
Me too, I was obsessed with the story after seeing it
Same. Long time. Allllll the way back to Dune Part 1. Lol
I was very concerned at Chani's leaving Paul at the end of Part 2. Now I understand why Denis chose such a move. It will give their relationship a deeper commitment when they reunite. That way, the drama of her miscarriages and eventual success of bearing the twins will be even more poignant.
It will also make it moot how she was constantly pissed at "something" without her understanding the true bigger picture of him not having better alternatives.
The tragedy is that she who should have been the first one to defend him was actually the first one to shun him based on surface perceptions.
@@Leonhart_93 And he doesn't bear any blame for failing to explain?
Also, if a couple splits and reconciles over a misunderstanding, that doesn't make the split vanish.
@@EGRJ No but she was at his throat long before he made the final choice to drink the thing. He even says "no matter what I do, you still won't trust me", to which she is like "that's because you are an outsider". I think they made her really crappy in this adaptation, she makes no sense.
Like literally the only Fremen that is "wise" to see something else here? I don't buy it at all.
In fact the choices of the Fremen make the most sense. They want to turn Arakis into a green paradise. That's impossible without winning the spice war over the planet.
I think using a character like chani as a tool to get at herbert’s intention (that didn’t always come across in the writing) and in turn, developing her as a character (which I like) is smart.. I think the actual issue in part 2 is we lose some of paul’s development and his intense struggle to walk the path with the least harm done:
what we don’t see enough in the movies, in my opinion, is how paul is walking a razors edge in his ability to see outcomes and his rather opaque behavior is often very much guided by choosing the lesser of two (or infinite) evils. he IS flawed and yes power corrupts (these aren’t new themes) but I would have liked to see more of what we don’t see in the dialogue which I know is tricky because that’s harder to portray in film.
I also think the decision to skip the time jump and the death of paul and chani’s son is a big part of the reason paul seems like he loses himself after he drinks the water of life. without the revenge factor (a very human motivation, if not always noble) after his son’s death it seems like paul drinks the kool aid and decides he’s gonna go sicko mode on the empire and I do think it does somewhat of a disservice to paul. he is trying to prevent the obliteration of an entire people and he knows the jihad will also bring the death of millions. he’s not perfect. he fails at being the hero. he’s incredibly manipulative. but in an attempt to show his flaws that herbert didn’t think came across as well as he wanted, this film also mischaracterizes him to some extent.
I don’t think you have to choose between those two things in what you choose to portray in the film. I think you could have explored his fall from heroism and his struggle to do right by a people but I don’t think we got both. at least not yet. anyway those are just my thoughts.
What a wonderful mind you have. If I may be so bold as to add to it…
The very pieces you note are missing from Parts 1 & 2 could/ should be integrated into Part 3. Without those very plot points you mention, Part 3 would likely be FAR too “talky” compared to the first two installments. Those “action” pieces you mention should be put into part 3.
@@CaravanseraiSouthValley I don’t disagree and I do think denis will shift some things around in messiah but I do think having some context missing before drinking the water of life makes him seem somewhat of a space hitler out of nowhere which we know is a bit reductive in terms of who paul is.
Tbf drinking the Water of Life IS the turning point for Paul in the book as well. He changes afterwards, and not for the better. No, he's not a space Hitler but he definitely becomes more tyrannical as his power skyrockets.
@@squamish4244 for sure you’re not wrong but I think we miss some nuance of that shift in the film in my opinion. it’s still effective and I still loved it but I wish more of that tapestry of decisions he’s always trying to thread came across a bit more.
@@thixiemattelI agree, but then you have to add more exposition. It was already a 2.5 hour film, and he was never going to get three films greenlit. Maybe another scene could have communicated the nuance of Paul seeing humanity's stagnation and destruction without the jihad. Otherwise, Denis did about as good as could be expected for two long films that adapted such complex source material.
IMO Villeneuve missed one of the best lines in the book Dune.
Jessicia said, "While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine-history will call us wives.
Dune Part 2 is amazing. Perfectly setting up Dune Messiah. The changes to Chani should easily flow into Dune Messiah.
I saw Chani’s place I the film as the audience surrogate to inform us how we should be feeling about Paul.
And that's where it was wrong. The audience like Chani doesn't have the bigger picture. Paul pretty much choose the best path he had available with his powers and what he had seen. In the end in the books his rise leads to a better future than the alternative would have been. And in the books Chani is by his side and actually understands that he needs to do some things.
At the end of the day, we still have the books. Bless the Maker and His water!
My sense is that what the (mostly book-purist) critics dislike about the Part II ending (and much else in the first Dune book's two-film adaptation) relates to the big difference between the "omniscient narrative" of the book(s) and the inevitability (especially in a Villeneuve film) of the audience having to go through most of the story looking at developments through the eyes of a typically poorly informed character (usually a woman or outsider in his films) who struggles to make sense of what's going on.
No one should be surprised that the films haven’t yet revealed what exactly Paul has seen, nor that Chani might have a more complex and relatable internal reaction to the events at the end of "Dune" (and of Part II).
The ultimate payoff in a "show, don't tell" film adaptation of a "tell-the-reader- everything- in-advance" book will come when the full nature of the modern Greek tragedy of the Dune story becomes clear (presumably by the end of the next film adapting "Dune Messiah") - i.e. the horrible dilemma facing Paul in trying (but failing) to both figure out how to avoid the worst excesses of the jihad and then to "do what must be done" (at great personal sacrifice) to pre-empt an even greater human tragedy.
Actually the movie is much heavy handed with the "tell, don't show" than the books are, with Chani basically painting Paul as the ultimate villain, which he was not. And the confidence in her baseless decision in the movie was quite upsetting. She didn't even asked him about his movies, she just turned her back on him, never leaving any doubts in the minds of the audience.
Sorry, book Chani is a much wiser character than this movie version. That’s why she accepts her position as consort. She knows she has Paul’s heart even though she doesn’t wear the crown. Chani is the one who pressures Paul to sleep with Irulan so he has an heir. It’s a far departure from the movie version.
I don't know if it is "wiser," per say, but it is different. I think Denis is trying to express a POV of skepticism among the Fremen using a central character. Without that, it paints with very broad strokes that generally all the Femen are on board with the mission to themselves become colonizers and the atrocities that entails and that all who oppose are just schemers out for selfish aims. This allows there to be prominent Fremen voices of dissent.
Yea any girl that is raised hardened and skeptic will automatically accept an alien as their lord n savior n lover. Yea nah. Book version accepts it all blindly, no a real scenario there will be skeptics and villenueve did it perfectly.
@LuisMontenegro-ye1wl Nah, it makes no sense that her of all the people is the first one to never give Paul any trust. Without understand the context of what he has to do, she is the first one to shun him and run away from him, even when everyone else trusted him with their lives.
And in the end Paul did choose the best future of all the possible ones he saw. If there was a better future than what he did, the author never made it clear.
@@Leonhart_93 She did trust Paul. She trusted him when he said he would not exploit the prophecy and would not become an occupier/colonizer himself, which we know that is exactly what the jihad ends up doing.
@@AdanALW No, she did not trust him at all, always wary of him from the start when others started calling him "Lisan-al-gaib".
Even before he drank the thing, she kept giving him jabs, to the point where he actually said "No matter what I do you won't still trust me", to which she answered "because you are an outsider". How crappy is that? She had nothing likable about her in the movie, nothing redeeming.
Compared to the book where years pass with them together and she understands him, the movie completely failed in giving a convincing reason why he he cares so much that he tried to appease her until the end.
And when he took the "water of life", she had absolutely no idea about what he was going to do with it. None. And yet she started shunning him starting from that moment, and never even stopping to ask him anything.
Haven't read the books so I'm not all capable of saying which I thought was better but I thought this was a very powerful and effective choice to have Chani be the conduit for the audience questioning Paul's choices and anger at the result. I know some of the later story beats of later books but I think this change has them setup for a better 3 part to the story than would otherwise be the case.
Additionally it has the side benefit of making Chani into a more active and strong character than she has been in other adaptations that also syncs with audience expectations around the treatment of women in such works of fiction. Not in a ham fisted Disneyesque way but one that feels true to the story and like something and an actual person might do.
By keeping young Alia out of these movies, Denis compressed the few years worth story from the book into less than a year. Based on the actress that he used for the voice of Alia, and will likely use for the more grown Alia that will appear in Messiah- I would expect the third film to jump forward somewhere closer to 155-18 years forward and tell another time-compressed version of Messiah.
I really enjoyed what he did with Dune and part 2 so far. I forgive the things changed as he told a more "grounded" story that is reasonable for non-book readers to follow and enjoy. And the things he did change or omit aren't going against the story in the book- just streamlining and keeping to the literal stuff that can easily be seen.
I really look forward to see what he does with the third movie, and I have very high expectations he will do a great job. I am confidant that anyone who comes to the books after these movies will get the story they saw and so much more.
But I also really liked the screen and book versions of Annihilation- and those were significantly more different from each other.
I will say even tho I didn’t like the changes I do love the movie but I am really worried about dune messiah bc he said this is supposed to close the Paul story but the book sure doesn’t not till the 3rd book
Unfortunately this movie is not Dune anymore.
@@di3486are u high or just stupid?
I agree. I am a bit worried that he will try to make Paul into some kind of hero, even though in the books he was clearly a tragic figure and a failure.
The hole book series is a criticism on absolute power and using religion and superstition to control people.
@@ethirnandor5439 why would u think that when in dune 2 its clear paul has become the tyrant and will be responsible for billions of deaths. Have u even seen dune 2?
@@ethirnandor5439that is not going to happen
The last shot of Chani... the hurt in her eyes and yet, strength. I almost expected a fade to black and in white text appears: Men Suck.
Can't wait for Part III
Not part III, Dune Messiah. Dune part III would make no sense, since Dune has already been adapted into one 5,5 hour long movie and divided into two parts. Dune Messiah is epilogue
It's gonna be called Dune Messiah. Part 1 and 2 are one book while Messiah is a whole different meta. There's also gonna be a large time jump.
"I have to admit that without the Fremen, it would have not been a victory."
"Victory? Victory you say? Not victory. The shroud of the dark side has fallen. Begun the Holy War has."
That's easy to say, but was there ever a possibility of a better path? I don't think there was, or at least Paul never saw any.
I can’t shake the feeling that the real reason for the change is MODERN Hollywood
I mean essentially yes it is for “modern hollywood” it’s to grasp the audience’s attention. It’s also kind of a hard message to grasp (not all messiah/ god like figures are good they can be destructive) having Chani be that obvious out-speaking voice kind of solidifies that theme of Paul being the villain not the hero. I also am not thrilled with the change but nonetheless Denis changed it in a way that can still drive the storyline for dune messiah :)
5:08 - what’s your source for that? That is a rumor that simply isn’t true. Herbert already had Messiah written in principle before Dune was published in 1965. Stop perpetuating this falsehood before corroborating anything.
Didn't Herbert already have parts of children of dune written before dune was released as well as Messiah?
@@JDB62- yeah he had it all pretty much written but his publisher wanted him to split it up into two parts. Cortex is misleading people and spreading this stupid rumor.
@@JDB62-yes, he did. But people keep spreading that around like it’s fact when it’s not 😂. Frank wrote Dune & Dune: Messiah with parts of children of dune already.
Thank you for this. I like your predictions and points. It has been so fun to speculate how DV will approach the Messiah film. I like your prediction that involves Chani stopping a plot to kill Paul because it's actually consistent with the first book (p. 482) when she casually kills someone who came to challenge Paul in the sietch. So that would be cool.
I LOVED the bold choices Denis Villeneuve made. The film made a big impact. And also, haters have the loudest voices: I think most viewers loved the love story and the character choices. Love the books (Ive read them several times). Love the films. Love the fact that Villeneuve can surprise all of us. I hope DV continues to be bold, unafraid, and unapologetic about his choices because he is damned good at what he does.
Chani in Dune Messiah is flat, two dimensional, passive and just plain boring. The book is going to be hard to adapt in to an interesting film and getting Chani interesting in Dune part two pays off in the third movie. He's also going to have to change a lot of stuff.
I actually agree when it comes to Chani in Messiah and I think that's another reason why he made those changes early on like you said. Gonna be interesting to see how he tackles it all.
I thought the ending Stunk. It looked like " ok! go with your dumb girlfriend, I am taking the worm, you find your own ass home." that's how it clumsily that came off. Chani supposed to be a Fremen, not really afraid of war, and deeply into the Freemen religious beliefs and superstitions. When we hear her blaspheming and talking atheistic BS trash,, Her life would had been shorter by the book's standards, as she would had a Cyrsknife in the back and/or her throat would had been slit by one. She would have gone out as an apostate. none of it improved Hurberts Ideas, and it smell so much more like DEI, and Villeneuve has said he was head that way in a big way. Your point, about Directors, inevitably, having to adapt source books for the screen, thats not happening here. What I saw just dragged me out of the movie theater, kicking and screaming, back to 2024 USA. Say it brings Frank Herbert's idea to some kind of clarity is, a con job. We seen director before elevated by taking great works, GOT, to the screen and get pump up as if they wrote the great work themselves, as long as they stayed in the boundaries of the authors vision, people thought they were geniuses. And then we see director dashed on the rock, burnt at the stake, for not just adapting, but taking full license to change a story. This is my personal warning to Denis Villenuve, if you want to get high of your own farts fine, fart on dune ... Dune will end your Career.
the northern/southern split was also totally unnecessary and stupid
I absolutely love the books, I am a diehard fan of Dune, but I don’t have any problems with any changes. I thoroughly enjoyed this movie and I thought the score and cinematography as well as the performances from a lot of great actors really added some heaviness and depth to this movie. It’s not perfect, no movie is. Other than Lawrence of Arabia, which influenced Frank Herbert to write this book. I love that it comes full circle because Dune (regarding visuals).. Denis is paying homage to that film with this film. I think he actually said it was his favorite movie ever. The storming of Aqaba is the best thing ever captured in film without CGI. It is so epic.
I like his choice for us to understand Paul's ultimate hypocrisy through Chani. Book Chani didn't really have a lot of memorable character to me, although it's been about a decade since i read it.
@@lordcrunk4790 I'm due for a re-read sometime in the near future. No doubt I'll be comparing the two more directly as I do.
I was so happy to see a new video for 'Dune', but sadly, I did not read the books.😔
it’s never too late!
he loved the story so much he changed it yeah we know. filem directors eh
I don’t like that Chani looks like she is always pist off
The Paul and Chani relationship in these movies just hits wrong for me. There is no definitive "they are a devoted couple" moments. In fact, their relations ship feels way closer to the teen movies were the unpopular boy gets help from the super popular girl to become popular himself. And then the boy gets too popular and forgets himself but in the end he picks the girl who helped him. That is far more what we see in the films than even the explanations in this video.
Exactly their relationship is a bit infantilized
Name the teen movie you just described.
@@anthonycameronnajera8471 Cant buy me love, some kind of wonderful, shes all that, say anything, & love dont cost a thing to name a few. Love don't cost a thing and cant buy me love are most dead on imho. There are about 20 other movies with this plot tho (unpopular guy gets popular girl to help him, becomes a popular guy and forget the girl that helped him achieve it)
Holy sht what movie were yall watching? Doom 2? Wrong one guys
I was disappointed that he dropped 3 out of 4 major plots. I would have LOVED seeing a small child moving and talking as an adult and killing the Baron done with modern techniques. I guess that - and the suicide attacks the freeman's used - are not PC enough anymore in our modern world even though that would have made them look even more unstoppable and give them the capability for cruelty that will lead to the Jihad.
The movie was visually stunning, but there was not a lot left of the story.
ikr......
I fully understand the necessity to make Chani the voice of opposition when adapting this book into a movie. The book grants the reader access to the consciousness of its characters and through Paul’s consciousness, we experience his conflict with his ascent to power and the upcoming jihad, his attempts at stopping it until he realizes it’s much bigger than him and that he can’t. This kind of complex internalization simply isn’t the domain for cinema. Not fluid cinema anyway. So it’s necessary to bestow this conflict into an external source. And because the only character suitable to impose this upon is Chani, she’s the one who gets fundamentally changed. The movie version of Chani is a complete invention of the filmmakers and does not represent Herbert’s vision in any meaningful way. Again, while I understand that narrative necessity of this action, it comes with the tradeoff of erasing the original purpose of this character.
In the book, Chani is Paul’s internal peace. The two of them both lose their fathers to this campaign providing the opportunity for these characters to comfort each other. Chani understands Paul as an outworlder as her dad was also an outworlder and as her outworlder father was in a leadership role within the Fremen, she sees Paul being the rightful man to take that position. Chani and Paul’s relationship is born out of deep empathy in this way. Chani becomes Paul’s ride or die, she too wishes for the freedom of her people, she provides her lover with valued counsel during his times of crisis. She understands the politics of marriage as all Fremen women do.
The movie version of this character just has none of this. She’s little more than an avatar to voice Paul’s conflict and I consider this to be a substantial downgrade for her character. She’s vastly less interesting and complex and so is her relationship with her people and her lover.
I also don’t think Denis is any real position to truly adapt Messiah going forward. The movie might include the title, but the chess pieces aren’t in place to really tell the story of Paul and Chani’s relationship as it is in the book where Chani is Paul’s most trusted confidant. I also don’t think Denis being too modest of a filmmaker to include a toddler Bene Gesserit bumming people out really has the sand to present us with a story with a fish-man floating in a spice tank and a shape-shifting imposter as it’s antagonists (not to mention a resurrected Duncan Idaho), but that’s a different conversation.
Again I think Denis will give us an excellent movie and it will probably even have a lot of the same themes and broad plot elements, but he’s clearly telling his own story.
When I hear people say that this adaptation is an improvement to Chani as a character, I really think those people don’t know what they’re talking about.
There is even a scene in part 2 that I can actually point out as being poor character writing. It’s the scene that immediately follows Gurney revealing his knowledge of the whereabouts of the Atreides atomic weapons. This new knowledge completely changes the power dynamics of the Fremen’s campaign against the Harkonnen. In the film Chani has two conflicts that she’s navigating; the first is the subjugation of her people at the hands of the Harkonnen (it’s expressed explicitly as the prolog of the first movie). The second conflict is her lover’s entanglement of her people’s prophecy and the potential loss of her people’s identity in following Paul (this conflict is an inversion of the filmmakers). This new information about the atomics has the potential to solve both of Chani’s dilemmas. The atomics can be used to destroy the means of the Harkonnen’s control over her people and can be done in a way that doesn’t require the deification of Paul. And yet the next scene is of her in a tent with Paul expressing frustration and jealousy because of Paul’s ability to end both conflicts. Do the writers think making her an unintelligent woman with tactical illiteracy who would rather be upset than seeing her people free without having to worship her man really makes Chani a more compelling character? Because I don’t.
I'll just wait to see how Dune Messiah will fit in all of this.
I do understand what Denis did and it fits the narrative. But he also made Irulan to be "the best student Gias Helen Mohiah had" lol. I mean. ....
Who says she's honest though.. maybe she said that just to please the emperor.. you can't really trust her I think
@@Andre_77 true, we don't know that (yet) in this context. But I think Denis has his feminist agenda in Dune. Not saying it's bad. But the women he has chosen to be the most powerful are not book accurate.
But hey, I'm here for the adaptation . All I'm saying is, so far, these script choices are not making so much sense in regards of Messiah and the role Chani and Irulan play. That's why I said "let's wait and see how it all fits".
They used her pretty effectively for exposition. Her being the best student fits in with that.
Bullshit DV. Channi was a much stronger and more pragmatist character in the books ffs.
@@lordcrunk4790 You are contradicting your self, You clearly stated that SHE (Chani) does not believe Paul is the Messiah, so if that's the case why would she call him out, she has no reason too. Who she does call out is Jessica & the Bene Gesserit sisterhood, that's who she believes is spreading the prophecy lies to enslave them, not Paul himself.
On the contrary, Paul is constantly telling Chani, Stilgar & all the Fremen that his not the Messiah & only wants to fight with them to take down the Harkonnen so that Arrakis can be there's again. If she is hearing all this from Paul why would anybody blame her for having romantic feelings & dating him? That's not being a hypocrite!
One problem i had with dune 2. Paul should have looked a litte sunburned. His face was slightly pudgy compared to the first film and was incredibly pale. Would have added more realism i think. 6 months in the desert would change your appearance
I’ve been pissed off with the way dune 2 ended. I’m a big dune fan. But I totally forgot Paul’s prophecy will still come true. He’ll probably win her back in the first 30 minutes of Messiah. I’m sure that movie will be at least 4 years before it happens. They are taking a break. They probably won’t do pre-production until 2025 with principal photography maybe not starting until the end of next year or 2026. Then editing, marketing, etc.
I've got to say, I was disappointed with a lot of aspects of Dune 2. I think Villneuve took too many liberties and changed the characters that he had himself established in the first film. So he turns Stilgar into a Religious Fanatic instead of the pragmatist he was in the book, with this rather clumsy "North and South" divide plot tool he invented, he turns Gurney Halleck into a clumsy, brash loudmouth and Chani into an angry shrew instead of Stilgar's stoic and capable niece. Then he removes Thufir and the narrative of Harkonnen internal plotting even though he filmed it. A massive diminishment of an important character. Considering the nonsense included in the final cut, it's no excuse to say time restraints meant excluding these scenes were necessary.
Leaving out the 2 year elapse of time was also rushed and clumsy because that would have established Paul's gradual assimilation into the Fremen (and Jessica's - whose approach was far more cautious in the books and portrayed a dislike of the BG and Imperium politics her and Paul were compelled to play to survive. In the film she became power mad and gleeful).
Overall it looks to me like too much executive/producer interference which Denis can't admit to in public.
A bit of a mess really. The scene where Halleck keeps shutting Chani up is stupid and clumsy like the portrayal of Halleck in this 2nd chapter. Embarrassing really.
I've watched it several times wondering if my opinion would change but it hasn't.
On the plus side there was some fabulous tension - such as the opening sequence with the Harkonnen in the desert and how the Fremen dealt with them and destroyed any trace of them. One criticism is that when the body fell, two BG trained people would not have reacted with such shock and verbal discomfiture. Plus Jessica could kill far more subtly than in that scene.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Any idea on why the Paul vs Feyd Rautha duel was done differently in the film than in the book? Whilst the book depicts Paul dominating the fight and near perfectly reading his adversary, he almost loses in the film which creates a major inconsistency with the rest of the movie (a skilled warrior is not supposed to struggle in a duel against a spoiled kid).
I like movies that are not crippled by typical crutches like comedic relief, political/social alphabet soup agendas, the 90 minute deadline, exagerated characters or acting, etc.
frank herbert deliberately wrote tDune with a plan already in place to write Messiah. The whole idea was to fool the audiance to love and support Paul and then wreck him in next book. This is actually what Herberts thoughts were.
I am for the changes. I think Villenueve realized Messah is not objectively a great book. And he wanted to put these changes in to fix the setup for more if he or someone else is going to.
I think had they had Alia be born, then Jessica could’ve been the one to question Paul. But I still say that I think that Chani was at the very least contemplating suicide at the end. Either that or she is starting to understand his perspective
Since Paul took the water of life and has the power to see all paths, he knows how to shape his relationship with Chani.
Dune Part Three will be the best love story movie since Titanic.
will zendaya learn acting before dune messiah?
They could have Chani come back to Paul and then do the time jump, but I can easily see them having it be a 5 to 7 year jump instead of 12 years
D3 will be teen/adult-Alia + Hayt tho :)
U deserve more subs
Chani is an elite fighter, who is aware of the threat Paul is to her people, so she sleeps with him? That is just not believable, why doesn’t try and kill him instead.
Chani claims to love Paul. But every time he steps forward in leadership and manhood she gets mad and essentially tries to undermine him. But it makes sense she said “You will never lose me if you stay who you are.”
@@technofilejr3401because he’s a liar and literally manipulating her community to commit a genocide for him.
The only problem with just adapting Dune Messiah is that it isn't the end of Paul's story, or of Herbert's original conception of the Atreides saga. That only ends with Children of Dune at the earliest. (God-Emperor, technically, but that book IS truly unadaptable.)
it was absolutely craptacular that they changed the love story of chani and paul
Another ending change. The Rev. Mother calls Paul Abomination.
She was addressing Jessica
@@MichaelClifford164 It was meant for Alia but they changed the killing of The Baron from her to Paul.
@@EDDIETRUJILLO-q8p Yes, we know. She was still talking to Jessica about Alia, though.
@@MichaelClifford164 Paul screams at the Rev Mother and she calls Jessica abomination? That makes no sense. Even if she is talking about Alia. Bad writing.
@@EDDIETRUJILLO-q8p that would be editing, not writing, but you're welcome to feel that way
He's going to take massive liberties with part 3. He primed us for them in the first two films. But one thing is for sure... Denis LOVES a secret baby twist. We'll find out Chani was pregnant with baby Leto when she walked away. Marie Fenring might make an appearance as well. So we'll have three younger characters, all the same age.
I loved both movies. The writing, acting, cinematography and more for me easily outweighed any shortcomings. Personally, I could care less if the movies are loyal to the books. I loved the books, but Villeneuve has shown yet again that he and his team are outstanding story tellers. And IMO Dune 1 and 2 are indeed outstanding stories!
Villeneuve's changes made an already straightforward story even more plain. Part 2 reduced it to a simple revenge story sprinkled with the tired old trope of question who ever is in power because rebels are always the good guys.
Alas, that is Villeneuve's achilles' heel, but he doesnt see it that way. As he claimed himself multiple times, he doesnt need/care for story. All he needs is visual poetry. He doesnt like dialogues, he doesnt care for character development. Narratively speaking, it is a messy movie, Part 2.
I think he will do the same with Messiah. He needs his visuals and he will get them, since the novel proposes really breathtaking views and imagery.
@@CATDHD That explains a lot. He should leave directing to the Alex Garland's of the industry and take up cinematography.
I was not a fan of the way he wrote Chani in the ending. Chani learned from Jessica that concubines can be just as powerful and important as a wife. I mean the way Denis ended it there will be no Leto II and therefore no God-Emperor.....
Herbert already had characters in the novel that weren’t entirely on board with Paul’s manipulation of the Fremen. Both Jessica and Gurney Halleck were continually taken aback by his actions. In fact, Gurney was the one who was against using the atomic weapons and Jessica was opposed to the threatening of the destruction of the worm/spice lifecycle as a bargaining chip.
Makes sense on what you said about the ending and the continuation to Dune Messiah ! Can’t wait to see part 3 !! I’ve become a huge fan of the Dune Trilogy !!!
I think the change in Chani, her attitude against Paul taking on the mantle of the messiah was largely due to a desire by the writers and producers to address one of the main problems with the entire story of Dune: that Paul was a white savior for an embattled brown skinned (arabic) civilization.
In the book, Herbert is just completely tone deaf to this. His focus was on the problems of autocracy, and messianic movements.
To address this, they gave Chani the critical voice and pitted her against Paul's rise.
This was fairly effective, but at a huge cost. The romance that blossomed between the two, the love and connection that a reader had with Chani is diminished by her constant anger and rebellion. To the point that, when Paul announces his marriage to Irulan, we don't feel Chani's sense of betrayal as she's already estranged from Paul. As you've stated, book Chani knew what was going to happen and supported it, further cementing the strength of their relationship and the attachment of the reader.
I understand that it made Chani a "more interesting character", but I feel like we were robbed of what was such a critical part of the book: that romance.
I think Denis hit a number of great notes in the movies. But, I remain convinced that Denis was not the right person to make these films. Denis is on record stating that he dislikes dialog. And boy, is that apparent here. Herbert was masterful at dialog, character development, and world building. Denis just chose to focus on the action and world building, throwing out almost all of the character development that we really needed. We hardly know these characters apart from their actions. Where Herbert painted with a velvet glove, Denis strikes with an iron fist. Even the "voice", which was described by Herbert as achieved through perfect yet subtle control of pitch and delivery has been rendered down into a staccato yelling and spitting of words.
Another criticism: everything is brutalist in this movie, the architecture, the aesthetic, no matter what the culture. Even the city of Arakeen, which was not the one chosen by the Harkonnen, looked brutalist. Instead of a living city of sun shaded bazaars, water sellers, byzantine streets and walkways, the entire locale is covered with this plastic looking facade. And we see nothing of Arakeen. We don't tour its streets, we don't have dinner parties with its wealthy and influential. We don't even get world building where it's really needed.
Dune should have been broken down into three movies. The first should have ended with the Atreides taking possession of Dune, exploring Arakeen, having the dinner party, and Jessica discovering the green house in the middle of the palace, with the warning note from Lady Fenring.
The second movie could have begun with Geddi Prime, rendering its capital city in great detail, with scenes of guards living in hellish conditions, taking semuta with its drug music to deaden the despair. We could have gotten to know the Baron better, in his dialogues with Piter and introducing Feyd more organically. And as the Baron is monologing the agreement between his house and the emperor to bring a legion of the Sadaukar down upon the Atriedes, we cut to betrayal of Yueh and follow Paul and Jessica out of the destruction and into the dessert, and end with Paul and Jessica being accepted into the Fremen culture.
Movie three starts with Paul's increasingly lethal raids on spice production, following along roughly with the sequence of events of this second movie. Feyd comes in, figures out the northern sietches, starts to become a real menace. There's more time, however, to explore Salusa Secondus, the unseen influence of the Spacing Guild and their refusal to allow satellites around the southern hemisphere. There's more time to develop Irulan and her relationship with her father. There would be more time for Christopher Goddamn Walken. And there'd be more time for Chani to play the foil against the white savior trope, and then move beyond that into the love affair that was so precious in the book.
But that's not what happened, and this is the Dune movie that we'll have for quite some time. I doubt another attempt will be made at it in my lifetime. So, I suppose I'll enjoy what we have for what it is.
And it is a great movie.
Woah woah woah what?! That was a freaking huge spoiler for people that never read the books (me)
The music at the end, its a variation on the earlier love theme between Paul and Chani, is absolutely unbelievable
I read the books after watching the movies and was impressed with the choices Villeneuve made. He develops the female characters -- Jessica and Chani -- much more. I found that the weakest part of the books and think Villeneuve did a great job making them more real. I hope he'll do the same with Irulan in Part III -- she fades in the book a bit. I hope he will flesh out the tension between her and Chani more.
I think that for the time the books where written the female parts where quite modern: the women in Dune are no submissive housewife's as in most books and tv series of that era. That said, I don't mind at all giving Chaini a bigger role and making Liet Keynes a woman. It works for me on screen and does not effect the overall themes and story.
Btw: Irulan should fade. In the books her only role is in the histories she writes. Paul married her for political reasons and then deliberately sidelines her for the same reason. Her Bene Geserit training also is useless on him as he is trained himself, and especially after drinking the water of live.
This can all be true. The roles could be progressive for the time but there’s room to evolve them further to more clearly make Herbert’s points.
Jessica is much more complex in the book.
Talk about Rebel Moon.
He had no right to change the ending.
But hurt book geek alert
I dont like change,its snells like feminist agenda to show defiant strong women the same b s. we are fed for years by movie industry. Character of Chani in movie and their romance makes no sense.
I went back and watched the scene and paid attention to the moment she left Paul. It wasn't the Holy War, it was Irulan. She was cool with him threatening to blow up the spice fields but couldn't deal with a political marriage. However, she's smart enough to question the prophecy and how it enslaves her people. All her questioning of Paul gaining power and she still follows him into battle.
Also, Zendaya's performance lacked a level of nuance and warmth.
Dune pt 2 is one of those films I like less and less the more I see it/think about it. The cinematography is incredible, but the story, pacing ,and Zendaya's acting severely detract from that overall impression.
Anyone saying Zendaya's portrayal was good is being disingenuous at best. She's one note and had zero chemistry with Timmy.
Pace was completely off by wasting time in the second act and then blazing through the end.
A woman willing to sacrifice a piece of her relationship for the good of the universe is a far more compelling character than one that gets mad and runs away on a worm. Denis has shown that he can be subtle and treat the audience as intelligent, but then he resorts to beating us over the head with the "fact" that Paul is actually the bad guy. We never get to see Paul rise as a true hero and then have that image twisted like in the books. Instead we're told over and over that he's actually the bad guy, completely ruining his character arc.
Well, you seem a bit arrogant to call a huge part of the movie going world "disingenuous". You look like a fool. I for one want to tell you, that no matter what your Mommy told you, you do not know everything. And you definitely do not have the right to speak for me. Or reprimand me from not thinking like you. Arrogance is creepy. But seems to fit you well.
I felt like the two freeman factions was a waste of energy.
So that the entire of arrakis believes in one ideal? Just like earth? Oh wait
@@LuisMontenegro-ye1wl this movie was made from a book. The energy they put into that stupid faction stuff they could have actually told the story from the books. The whole thing went away in the end and the only person still acting silly was his wife. There was sooooo much left out, so we could have what? Some arguments around the camp fire?
@@GeminiMaddnezz864lyfe
Butt hurt book geek, don’t watch movies from books you have read.
i like denee velners changes
Hated all the changes that he thought they were necessary and the fact that he only likes the less fantastical elements of a Sci fi story like Dune. I can’t wait for Dune Emperor and the Butlerian Jihad.
Visually stunning, but a serious departure from the source material and, thus, very disappointing. Villeneuve chose to bow to today's social situation rather than honor Herbert's vision. As such, it's only saving grace for me as a long-time fan of the series was the incredibly strong performance by Austin Butler and the stunning visuals. Otherwise, meh.
I've been waiting for this movie for 23 years, ever since I read the book and watched lackluster Lynch's Dune. Yes, its main focus is Paul, but it is everything I needed it to be ❤
If anything, he displayed what frank wanted more than frank himself, how can you say otherwise?
Chani is the best change to me. Alia not being born, the worst. Seems obvious to me.
Well, you go find a 3-year-old actress that has the mental capacity of 1000's of Reverend Mothers. Should be easy. Was handled so well in 80's movie. A tiny girl with fake blue eyes running around with someone voicing over what she was thinking. It was distracting and was impossible to do right. Still is. We get all we need from Alia in this new movie. Her advice to Paul through Jessica was effective. And Paul killing the Barron was actually an improvement from the book. Paul had revenge on his mind. He was able to get it.
@@donny1960exactly tf? Did ppl think would happen I saw this coming
@@Randomaccount9470 Ok???? Exactly? Zimmer$. Kumquat&. Lemon crisp.
@@donny1960 Alia was Ok in Lynch and 2000 scifi, it’s 2024. Changing her role is not an improvement, or perhaps you need to read the books again.
@@djozouavenul4930 Your opinion. I have read the book many times. You seem the type to be "ok" with things. It is 2024. Is a good time to improve things and not settle for ok...... OK?
Dune 2 was amazing paul’s change into a bad ass was great . Zendaya was horrible as usual so glad they didnt push their love life in the movie .
The Spiderverse movies made me realize that Denis Villaneuve's Dune and Frank Herbert's Dune are in two different Duniverses. Both have the Canon Events: House Harkonnen slaughtering House Atreides, Paul drinking the Water of Life, Holy War. Everything that's not a canon event can change.
@@lordcrunk4790 The Fremen are descendents of long persecuted Zensunni wanderers. Persecuted people run into enough oppressors to write histories about them. Movie Chani is a history geek.
@@chazboxzero but Chani is a Sayadina in training. If Chani knew that the BG had sewn their own relevance into old Fremen lore, Sayadina lore, the trick is up! If she knew that all her "Fremen folklore and Sayadina ritual rights training" has been through espionage manipulations by Lady Jessica and previous BG agents over several generations, she should call out Lady J herself! This is the biggest character "cannot know that without breaking the charter moment." Book Chani does not know of past BG espionage of her ancestors lore and beliefs. Chani's beliefs.
Chany will start a rebellion against Paul Atreides
That would be a shit movie
No, she will not....... Denis is a huge fan of the Dune saga. Chani plays too important a part in the rest of the story to do that. Also, if anyone was paying attention. Paul already knows she "will come around". He already told Jessicas that. Also, in the book. Chani knew that Paul marriage to the Princess was just for show. She did not storm out. She was right next to Paul at the end. Denis made it more dramatic. A cliffhanger. But the plot of the Dune saga makes it impossible for them to not be together.
The arrogance of some directors is to treat audiences like 5 year olds.
The fact he is talking about this means that a lot of people did NOT like it and are starting to talk about the massive issues this movie has. The bad script, the messy editing and the badly executed changes.
Whose arrogance? The director is a massive Dune fan and read the books multiple times since he was 15 years old. The movie has made more money than any film in 2024 thus far. Rotten tomatoes score is super high. DVD sales are in the top 5 for weeks and weeks. The only people who are unhappy are the book elitists who don’t believe any changes are good. And these elitists are making the most noise. But those who loved it are watching and rewatching and don’t need to scream how great it is. They show us with their wallets.
@@GamerplayerWT I 🫡 and thank you for everything you said, I couldn’t have said it better.👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 👏🏾
Not many at all. A very few. But you think you are many. Is internal. The votes are in on this movie. It is a great success. So, as you are probably used to hearing. You do not have a clue as to what you are saying. Your opinion is NOT the worlds opinion. Most people gave this movie great reviews. But you do show that you project your own arrogance well.
@@GamerplayerWT Exactly. Well said.
@@GamerplayerWT He is a massive Dune fan and he didn’t know that Dune, Messiah and Children of Dune were written as one single book and keeps claiming things Herbert never said😂
I'm getting tired of the word "colonizer"
The real reason Chani left the moo a dibb's quasi cataract Paul atreides side is because he got himself a side piece he didn't even need. Major plot hole.
Dune 2 is a weak film and a bad Dune adaptation. Villeneuve has failed, no matter how much praise he gets from the people who think he can do no wrong.
Chani is an awful charecter and zendaya can't act to save her life.
It’s not a weak film in any way, shape or form. You might not like it, everyone has a different opinion. But if it’s a good adaptation is a different story.
@@taaaaaaaazzzzzz
Compare to the the book its half of the story and.
Having now read the book. You are wrong my friend. I still find it to be both great cinema and an excellent adaptation, changes and all.
Denis can do wrong, he is human like us all. He just hasn't done it yet.
@@alfonsobiggers2452which wrong thing do you think he did in Dune Part 2?
They did not made those stupid changes because of audition not getting the plot. He changed it to make chani is a strong and independent feminist.
Good visuals and CGI does not make a good movie.
Chani is a terrible charecter
Zendaya is an awful actress.
Well only one thing I disagree with. Chani is a great character. You just missed the message. Is alright. Dune was not written for your type. Stick to Marvel. All those characters are made for you. Shallow and transparent.
@@donny1960
Lol you are the who is stupid to understand Paul's change without the director drip feeding you all the information through an awful actress like zendaya.
Unlike you I don't the holding hands to understand the themes of the movie. Grow up son.
Keep crying, incel. Doesnt change the massive success of the film that many people view as a masterpiece.
@@donny1960 I dont want my hand held and led around to understand te story like you do son. Stop projecting.
@@alexmason8557 Well you seem to understand me about as much as the movie...... Not at all. You say one thing and do another. Common action these days among a certain type of person.
The book isn't actually very good, the story always has been. Denis made things right.