If you've ever played Dark Age of Camelot you'll know exactly what he means. Very skilled small groups could, and regularly did, combat the zerg and win. The TTK in that game is much shorter than what they described in Ashes so it should be fine 👍
Ttk is different from fight time though. I like a game where you can nearly instagib someone if you get to tee off, but if your opponent defends properly fights last a long time.
The simplest, and most expensive way to prevent zerging, and increase the value of a good tank, is collision detection. But games that have tried it are no longer running. It is simply too CPU intensive.
So playing gw2 there is that 5 person hit cap with most abilities. Some abilities have less targets, some might as well be more targets. The organized players are usually in a tight group while the zerg (or cloud) is spread out. One of the major reasons is that almost all support healing and boons is ground targeted or centered on the player. If you want to be healed, not thrown across the room or gain damage buffs you need to stay close to the leader. If you're a few feet from the tagged commander your healer might not even realize you're out there taking damage. So... get in voice chat and stay on tag. The question is this: Is this fun? It can be. Running these groups can become very delicate against a similar opponent. It takes self discipline and understanding of what your commander wants to do. There is, however, some frustrating aspects. First, as a single skilled player trying to effect this opposing deathball i can get nothing done. At best i can stall for time. So if my team isn't going to win there's no point in showing up. This is a common problem with these open large battle games. Why would i show up to a losing fight? It is either a full bloody grind ignoring other objectives or you're staring at timers for 30 minutes. Its not a bad thing to have a game where you think "yeah we lost the castle but did you see how many kills i got?" Second, being inside the deathball, it can be frustrating to deal with an amorphous cloud of players. I can't chase down an injured player because i would be leaving the safety of my supports. At best the our squad can run around killing players one at a time until our opponents get so demoralized that they stop respawning. So will decreasing the Time To Kill prevent this? Well not in GW2. Its kinda been done and it created what was known as the Pirate Ship Meta. Quick time to kill heavily favors ranged damage. If it takes 3 seconds to get into melee range and you're dead in 5 seconds you accomplished very little. So you still stick with the tag and we collectively stay in max range of our opposing deathball. Its not great.
In almost every situation, the side with more numbers win, regardless of the systems in place. Even with Stephen's answer, higher numbered groups with roughly equal skills still win.
Numbers is a big factor for sure, but for me is always quality > quantity. In 2 differend mmos (Tera Rising, 4story) i have seen it with my own eyes, a group of 10-15 GOOD players dealing and winning EASILY groups of 30-50. I think we will see the same thing in AoC
Gamers always find the path of less resistance. If there's a class or group comp that is superior, they will use it. Especially in a PvP setting when you have more to lose/gain. TTK being 10-15 seconds might be fine, with higher TTK for tanks/healers. I'm excited to try it all out in A2. See you there!
I think you pretty much touched on it... make some sets/weapons that get bonuses in smaller groups exclusively. At the end of the day I thought his responses were alright, but if you get 40 players vs 6 you're still going to get stomped if there's no way to counter aside from a skill issue.
I have a question. If TTK is 10 seconds then what's the CC duration ? If there is 5 seconds stun then it's just execute vs 2 players for example. Another question - what if there are abilities that makes you immune for 5 seconds ? That's the reverse CC situation but at least they are counterable by running away, still a player can do a lot of damage by being immune for 5 seconds if the TTK is 10 seconds.
Cc seems to be about 2 seconds for a single ability but obviously cc chaining is a thing. Honestly I'd like to see some MOBA games mechanics to counter that For example in league of legends there is a champion that can eat his ally, and move away shielding him from damage, then spit him out after a couple of seconds. An ability for a cleric or a hunter that pulls a friendly unit towards yourself would be nice. And in dota 2 there is a whole play style of being able to move your allies either into danger to help them initiate a fight, or out of danger to save them. Something like this would definitely be a way to prevent a single character from being stunned for 30 seconds as one team is trying to burst them down and the other is chain healing.
Sounds good on paper, with regards to how the devs feel zergs will be handled... TTK of 15 seconds sounds low... I'm not sure what cool downs are in AoC but 15 seconds in my mind doesn't leave any time for "skilled" players to show their "skill" in any game. It sounds like barely enough time to get through a single skill rotation.
Yeah I could see it being low and I say the same in the video. We also don't know all of the buffs support classes like cleric bard and tank will provide in groups. It's possible that through the off heals, mitigation etc that the ttk is fun
I've been trying to play ESO again and it is literally a constant zerg fest, even in imperial city. I put together a high damage mitigation nb build using Swift, BR duel wield, 2 pc potentates minor protection and balorg. It seems to do ok but then I found out about how next patch we will be taking EVEN MORE DAMAGE due to some mitigation issue getting fixed or something. GROSS INCOMPETANCE from ZOS IMO.
I dont know precise ttk but in my opinion it is like in gw2... smaller 15-20 groups can take 25-35 groups if they are skilled more than bigger group (performing good "bombs" and movement). But 20 ppl wont never take 40+ group, maybe they will kill 30 enemies in this 40+ group but they will never KO full zerg. And there is also lag issue with bigger zergs... but this is another topic...
@@isth3reno1else Yea but is it a skill or proc set...? In AoC I hope it will be solved by skill (at least similar like in gw2 - because in my opinion this solution is great). For now AoC is no 1 for future MMO (hope it will be working on linux... but this is another topic...).
@@user-fv5xz5jx6v depends on the patch but yeah the example given is proc sets. I do agree I hope it's skill and design based and not set based. I just wanted to provide a time where I saw zergs disappear and reappear due to changes
if ya ask me, ashes so far looks to be showing why most pvp in mmo style games sucks by doing it right namely being, they dont openly allow and even excpect people to in essence, break their game and destroy how it was meant to be played by learning to cancel anims or methods to strip all enemy armor or learn how to get an extra fucking 15 abilites that all individually are stupid op but instead having a simple system that doesnt hold up individual player skill too much as while it is needed somewhat, what is valued more is game knowledge, knowledge of what counters what specifically, and teamwork as well as competent character build making and team compisition between you and your allies. in other words, its valuing the massively multiplayer online part isntead of just doing online and expecting that to be enough like for example esos cyrodill which just values people enough god builds to than throw in massive zergs against enemies with either tanks that are immortal regardless of what they do to man or go out and destroy the siege equipment.
I know this is a werid question. I am new to PC gaming and playing with controller all my life. I wonder will it have controller support :(. I have had tendens in my weist snap from sports so it is harder to use a keybroad due to spacings
I'm pretty sure they Said it won't have native controller support, but that hasn't stopped people from playing w controllers in the past. I'll know more come a2
I doubt there will be instant controler support but as a PC gamer you'll quickly learn that "fine, I'll do it myself" is basically our motto. People have been playing shooter games on dance dance revolution pads. MOBA games on controllers, platformers with steering wheels and all sorts of ridiculous stuff. No doubt if there is a will, there is a way.
Else’s law is ESO PvP in a nutshell. There are so many people that have PvPed in ESO for a decade and they have not improved at the game in anyway. They have hide in huge Zergs the entire time they have played. You separate them from the Zerg and they instantly die. Can’t even heal themselves. The game design makes it so you don’t have to actually get good at the game but you can pretend to be good, and lots of people are ok with that. I am happy with Steven’s answer for sure. You run into devs that don’t think there is a place for smaller numbers winning against large numbers (because a lot of MMOs think their money comes from casuals and it’s casuals that get Xed) glad his point of view is skill wins
Yea what happens if the zerg is a group of coordinated good players in every MMO i have ever played i think i am a pretty good pvp player in most MMOs and i can guarantee the sweaty/better players tend to migrate into one another's groups. Good player like to play with good players its normal the answer he gave is not new its very old if anything.
Alot of this isn't even combat related either. Game design is just as important. New World is a great example of poor design. Their OPR map encourages zerging. 3 points, in a line with large open areas. It was larger but the general PVP experience was essentially a hallway.
Playing GW2 right now and I do think AoC really needs to keep the low TTK. GW2 is a shockingly low skilled game that runs only on zerg play. It's dull, monotonous and dominated by poorly implemented team mechanics; learn from the mistakes of the past and please disregard the wishes of PvE players, they really are useless when considering equitable design.
I'm lost in the overall point. What do I mean? You love ESO. And yes, there will always be lag and server issues. Sets will be broken and changed and broken again. But you got fed up about the same thing here. What's the point. I mean, do you like one skill set over the other. One V One or small scale ove large scale. I'm not sure why you would make a video about this game and compare it to ESO. It's not the same thing in any way. Like saying ESO is another WoW. It's just not. ( You were a big contributor to ESO as far as comparative sets and skill outlining. ) in a few weeks Gold Road opens with the Scribing system and the ability to Break skills with armor typing. You would have a lot of fun and hundreds of people watching you complain about each and every one of them. Over 4000 combinations. Come home ...
Never too late to discuss Ashes. I can kill some time discussing time to kill. Node war update doesn't start for a few hours lol
less than 2 more hours to go
If you've ever played Dark Age of Camelot you'll know exactly what he means. Very skilled small groups could, and regularly did, combat the zerg and win. The TTK in that game is much shorter than what they described in Ashes so it should be fine 👍
Daoc was so fckin good
Also small group tasks being slightly more important than large group tasks when vying for an objective.
Ttk is different from fight time though. I like a game where you can nearly instagib someone if you get to tee off, but if your opponent defends properly fights last a long time.
The simplest, and most expensive way to prevent zerging, and increase the value of a good tank, is collision detection. But games that have tried it are no longer running. It is simply too CPU intensive.
Makes sense
So playing gw2 there is that 5 person hit cap with most abilities. Some abilities have less targets, some might as well be more targets. The organized players are usually in a tight group while the zerg (or cloud) is spread out. One of the major reasons is that almost all support healing and boons is ground targeted or centered on the player. If you want to be healed, not thrown across the room or gain damage buffs you need to stay close to the leader. If you're a few feet from the tagged commander your healer might not even realize you're out there taking damage. So... get in voice chat and stay on tag.
The question is this: Is this fun? It can be. Running these groups can become very delicate against a similar opponent. It takes self discipline and understanding of what your commander wants to do. There is, however, some frustrating aspects.
First, as a single skilled player trying to effect this opposing deathball i can get nothing done. At best i can stall for time. So if my team isn't going to win there's no point in showing up. This is a common problem with these open large battle games. Why would i show up to a losing fight? It is either a full bloody grind ignoring other objectives or you're staring at timers for 30 minutes. Its not a bad thing to have a game where you think "yeah we lost the castle but did you see how many kills i got?"
Second, being inside the deathball, it can be frustrating to deal with an amorphous cloud of players. I can't chase down an injured player because i would be leaving the safety of my supports. At best the our squad can run around killing players one at a time until our opponents get so demoralized that they stop respawning.
So will decreasing the Time To Kill prevent this? Well not in GW2. Its kinda been done and it created what was known as the Pirate Ship Meta. Quick time to kill heavily favors ranged damage. If it takes 3 seconds to get into melee range and you're dead in 5 seconds you accomplished very little. So you still stick with the tag and we collectively stay in max range of our opposing deathball. Its not great.
In almost every situation, the side with more numbers win, regardless of the systems in place.
Even with Stephen's answer, higher numbered groups with roughly equal skills still win.
Yep and that's more than fine
Numbers is a big factor for sure, but for me is always quality > quantity. In 2 differend mmos (Tera Rising, 4story) i have seen it with my own eyes, a group of 10-15 GOOD players dealing and winning EASILY groups of 30-50. I think we will see the same thing in AoC
Gamers always find the path of less resistance. If there's a class or group comp that is superior, they will use it. Especially in a PvP setting when you have more to lose/gain.
TTK being 10-15 seconds might be fine, with higher TTK for tanks/healers. I'm excited to try it all out in A2.
See you there!
I think you pretty much touched on it... make some sets/weapons that get bonuses in smaller groups exclusively. At the end of the day I thought his responses were alright, but if you get 40 players vs 6 you're still going to get stomped if there's no way to counter aside from a skill issue.
I agree
I have a question. If TTK is 10 seconds then what's the CC duration ? If there is 5 seconds stun then it's just execute vs 2 players for example. Another question - what if there are abilities that makes you immune for 5 seconds ? That's the reverse CC situation but at least they are counterable by running away, still a player can do a lot of damage by being immune for 5 seconds if the TTK is 10 seconds.
Cc seems to be about 2 seconds for a single ability but obviously cc chaining is a thing. Honestly I'd like to see some MOBA games mechanics to counter that
For example in league of legends there is a champion that can eat his ally, and move away shielding him from damage, then spit him out after a couple of seconds. An ability for a cleric or a hunter that pulls a friendly unit towards yourself would be nice.
And in dota 2 there is a whole play style of being able to move your allies either into danger to help them initiate a fight, or out of danger to save them. Something like this would definitely be a way to prevent a single character from being stunned for 30 seconds as one team is trying to burst them down and the other is chain healing.
Sounds good on paper, with regards to how the devs feel zergs will be handled... TTK of 15 seconds sounds low... I'm not sure what cool downs are in AoC but 15 seconds in my mind doesn't leave any time for "skilled" players to show their "skill" in any game. It sounds like barely enough time to get through a single skill rotation.
Yeah I could see it being low and I say the same in the video. We also don't know all of the buffs support classes like cleric bard and tank will provide in groups. It's possible that through the off heals, mitigation etc that the ttk is fun
I've been trying to play ESO again and it is literally a constant zerg fest, even in imperial city. I put together a high damage mitigation nb build using Swift, BR duel wield, 2 pc potentates minor protection and balorg. It seems to do ok but then I found out about how next patch we will be taking EVEN MORE DAMAGE due to some mitigation issue getting fixed or something. GROSS INCOMPETANCE from ZOS IMO.
I dont know precise ttk but in my opinion it is like in gw2... smaller 15-20 groups can take 25-35 groups if they are skilled more than bigger group (performing good "bombs" and movement). But 20 ppl wont never take 40+ group, maybe they will kill 30 enemies in this 40+ group but they will never KO full zerg. And there is also lag issue with bigger zergs... but this is another topic...
In eso a 12 man can wipe a 40-50 man, it just depends on the rule sets for the game at the time.
@@isth3reno1else Yea but is it a skill or proc set...? In AoC I hope it will be solved by skill (at least similar like in gw2 - because in my opinion this solution is great). For now AoC is no 1 for future MMO (hope it will be working on linux... but this is another topic...).
@@user-fv5xz5jx6v depends on the patch but yeah the example given is proc sets. I do agree I hope it's skill and design based and not set based. I just wanted to provide a time where I saw zergs disappear and reappear due to changes
if ya ask me, ashes so far looks to be showing why most pvp in mmo style games sucks by doing it right namely being, they dont openly allow and even excpect people to in essence, break their game and destroy how it was meant to be played by learning to cancel anims or methods to strip all enemy armor or learn how to get an extra fucking 15 abilites that all individually are stupid op but instead having a simple system that doesnt hold up individual player skill too much as while it is needed somewhat, what is valued more is game knowledge, knowledge of what counters what specifically, and teamwork as well as competent character build making and team compisition between you and your allies. in other words, its valuing the massively multiplayer online part isntead of just doing online and expecting that to be enough like for example esos cyrodill which just values people enough god builds to than throw in massive zergs against enemies with either tanks that are immortal regardless of what they do to man or go out and destroy the siege equipment.
I know this is a werid question. I am new to PC gaming and playing with controller all my life. I wonder will it have controller support :(. I have had tendens in my weist snap from sports so it is harder to use a keybroad due to spacings
I'm pretty sure they Said it won't have native controller support, but that hasn't stopped people from playing w controllers in the past. I'll know more come a2
If it doesn’t have instant controller access you may still be able to do it through Steam if the game is on Steam.
I doubt there will be instant controler support but as a PC gamer you'll quickly learn that "fine, I'll do it myself" is basically our motto. People have been playing shooter games on dance dance revolution pads. MOBA games on controllers, platformers with steering wheels and all sorts of ridiculous stuff. No doubt if there is a will, there is a way.
Does ashes have any pvp progression like the realm rank system from daoc?
I never played daoc sadly
I hope not. Competitive pvp games been moving away from progression over the last 10 years and I think that's for the better.
Else’s law is ESO PvP in a nutshell. There are so many people that have PvPed in ESO for a decade and they have not improved at the game in anyway. They have hide in huge Zergs the entire time they have played. You separate them from the Zerg and they instantly die. Can’t even heal themselves. The game design makes it so you don’t have to actually get good at the game but you can pretend to be good, and lots of people are ok with that. I am happy with Steven’s answer for sure. You run into devs that don’t think there is a place for smaller numbers winning against large numbers (because a lot of MMOs think their money comes from casuals and it’s casuals that get Xed) glad his point of view is skill wins
Clean name 🧼👍
15s sounds like too high if ure aiming for low TTK, for me atleast. 10s is pretty good tho.
Players will always abuse mechanics, and players will always strive to get better. You just have to make sure the mechanics being abused are good!
Yea what happens if the zerg is a group of coordinated good players in every MMO i have ever played i think i am a pretty good pvp player in most MMOs and i can guarantee the sweaty/better players tend to migrate into one another's groups. Good player like to play with good players its normal the answer he gave is not new its very old if anything.
Then the good players win
New World the last couple years: lets do the opposite
Nw healers are insane lol
@@isth3reno1else that and armor getting strong and HP going up made time to kill extremely long in group fights.
Alot of this isn't even combat related either. Game design is just as important.
New World is a great example of poor design. Their OPR map encourages zerging.
3 points, in a line with large open areas. It was larger but the general PVP experience was essentially a hallway.
idk this game looks too closely like New World, its kinda Alarming........
Playing GW2 right now and I do think AoC really needs to keep the low TTK. GW2 is a shockingly low skilled game that runs only on zerg play. It's dull, monotonous and dominated by poorly implemented team mechanics; learn from the mistakes of the past and please disregard the wishes of PvE players, they really are useless when considering equitable design.
lol that's a good answer on paper, but the real answer is going to have to be real debuffs and loot penalties i'm sorry
There's loot minimization
I'm lost in the overall point. What do I mean? You love ESO. And yes, there will always be lag and server issues. Sets will be broken and changed and broken again. But you got fed up about the same thing here. What's the point. I mean, do you like one skill set over the other. One V One or small scale ove large scale. I'm not sure why you would make a video about this game and compare it to ESO. It's not the same thing in any way. Like saying ESO is another WoW. It's just not. ( You were a big contributor to ESO as far as comparative sets and skill outlining. ) in a few weeks Gold Road opens with the Scribing system and the ability to Break skills with armor typing. You would have a lot of fun and hundreds of people watching you complain about each and every one of them. Over 4000 combinations. Come home ...
I'm just comparing the large scale issues mmos have and how they combat them
@@isth3reno1elsecome home….
Git Good Noob
No, I will not 🙂
Meh