Converting 300 Blackout brass From 223? Choose The Right Brass!
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- If you are looking to cut 223 or 5.56 brass down and re-size them to 300 AAC blackout then finding the right kind of brass in the first place can save you a lot of time and trouble.
I appreciate your interest in doing the right thing. As machinist I had a hard time watching this.
First calipers can not accurately measure the wall thickness of a tube. Even the thin edges have flats so they measure a cord of the circle. You have to use an anvil/pin micrometer to get an accurate measurement of a tube. You say the nominal wall thickness is .012" and say .014" is a fail. Calipers aren't meant to measure a .002" tolerance.
That said chambers are cut with generous neck diameter. While the spec for the case is .334" the chamber is cut to .339-.340".
It is worth checking the neck diameter of a case with a seated bullet as long as it is a few .000 below the chamber diameter it should be gtg.
LOL can't tell you how many people I have watched who think their digital calipers are good to .0005 since the scale goes to the firth decimal place.
Well explained sir you would have gotten along with my dad he was a machinist
I like your rational but as a long time hand loader with experience in competition shooting and case neck turning for SAAMI as well as custom chambers, I must tell you that you can not get accurate readings of the kind you seek with a caliper. You must have 1. a tubing micrometer for the thickness of the case necks and 2. an outside micrometer to correctly measure the outside diameter of the neck of the loaded round. Your mics must measure to .0001 inch.
dail caliper will be off .002-.001 easily because of how it measures, They are not inherently accurate on how they measure and any thumb pressure will throw them off. They teach you that the first week in machine shop.
ruclips.net/video/FTF1p3qByEA/видео.html home made trimmer
I only purchase Lake City reformed 5.56 brass for my 300 AAC home loads. I also use RCBS 300 AAC Blackout SB T/C Die set (p/n 22407). I lube all my new cases and pass them through that small base resizing die before loading. I also use RCBS primer pocket swager tool (p/n 9481).
ALL other brass goes in the recycle bucket.
Edit: I keep all Barnes & JAG headstamp 300 AAC brass.
I use a RCBS 90401 hand neck turner to cut the neck thickness down on the brass that has too thick of a neck. I also use a Sheridan Engineering gauge to gauge all my loaded brass. I had too many jam in the chamber of my AR-15, and they are a pain in the butt to get out. Much better to make sure they meet specifications ahead of time.
Trim the neck due to the walls of the 5.56 cases being different thickness depending on head stamp, which becomes the neck walls, thereby causing chamber jambs especially in match grade barrels. A Hornady neck trimmer may be employed to resolve this issue. A .0135 wall thickness after trimming has served well for the last couple years to prevent chamber jambs. Recently found a video on the subject by Ultimate Reloader as well.
And like previously mentioned, a neck turning lathe will turn down the necks to the desired thickness and will create more consistency in your rounds due to having even neck tension all the way around the bullet.
jon angus I might get into neck turning some day, but for now, I just stick to Lake city brass and have had great luck. I've got 1 hole cloverleafs at 100yds with a bolt action rem 700 and not much worse with an AR. Alot of people reloading for blackout are after volume shooting and if you can avoid the extra step it makes life a little easier.
You are supposed to ream the neck to remove the doughnut inside and turn the outside to the proper diameter. if you look at the L. E. Wilson 300 AAC set it comes with the reamer.
I took all my odd ball .223 and 5.56 brass and cut them down and made 300BO, I quickly found out on my own that some worked and some didn't. I have a great list I found on the internet of good, acceptable and no good. I now only convert Lake City as it keeps it simple for me.
Good video. Having done more case conversions than your average bear I can say the thicker cases you identified can be resolved by factory crimping. After a successful loading and firing the thickness self resolves upon the initial firing (fire forming). Something you deal with processing large quantities is unless each and every case is done measuring it as it goes then the various headstamps result in varying overall length dimensions. Again, I'm speaking from experience. If buying converted brass be sure to avoid mix headstamp (the exception seems to be military brass, Lake City and Federal don't seem to have that problem as much).
USCOMBATDIVER Thanks, so far, I have been using lake city, federal, and remington brass. I will pick up anything off the ground though. I just set aside what will not work for now and maybe when I get more time and the necessary equipment to neck turn I will have them then especially if the better stuff gets hard to find. Some of the partisan cases that i originally loaded up before i found the problem, would stick so bad that if i needed to unload an unfired round out of the chamber I had to knock it out with a cleaning rod.
I am so glad that you posted this. I been running into this problem and half the bullets I reload will work and the other half wouldn't. I tried just 223, just 556 by brands but I couldn't figure it out. I never buy lake city ammo because they won't let you shoot it at the indoor ranges and it turns out thats one of the ones I need. Thanks for breaking this down.
Glad It helped. So far I've had about the best luck with lake city, too.
Very informative video, without a bunch of unnecessary hoopla. I'm just getting started with the 300 AAC, but I have a lot of .223 and 5.56 empties in many different brands. This will keep me from using the wrong ones. Thanks a lot!
gunnutmike Lately, I've been using lake city brass for supersonic loads and have had excellent results. all other mixed headstamps I pick up, I load subsonics in since they are generally for closer range use and don't require quite as much accuracy. I stay away from pmc, partizans and other foreign brass for conversion, too much headache.
Most of the Lake City Brass in 5.56 that I have worked with measure .011 to .0115. Lake City is excellent brass so from watching your video, I will use nothing but Lake City brass for my 300 BLK project. Turning case necks just to fit the chamber is a waste of time it would seem to me. Thanks for the video.
WOW!!! thank you for the detail on this!!! this is a first!!!! someone who knows what they are doing on 300 blackout!!!!
I use only Lake city brass for 300 Blk out. I use mostly the 08 head stamps because when I tried reloading them in 223/ 5.56 it would crush the shoulder. So I just use them for 300 blk out runds.
Alvin Grove I like lake city the best too. I havent paid attention to the dates much but they have been very consistant, accurate, and cycle reliably. I use these for my more precise loads and all other random headstamps mixed for plinking ammo.
Hornady neck trimmer works fine to trim oval and thick neck wall. Have used for some time. Solved the issue in my match barrel. Have had no problems since. Look into it for yourself, just don’t cut into the shoulder. Have resized some after trim on the neck, maybe because I’m mr paranoid and felt the need on some head stamps. Have fired without jam many mags using trim. Some head stamps will hardly be touched while others will cut heavy the length of the neck. Once cut, will measure in tolerance. Hope this helps.
There is actually a shit ton of info on this on lots of shooting forums. There are several lists of headstamps that are good to go. As you said, generally American brass is good to go and imported brass needs to have the necks turned.
Do not guess! If you don't know facts get with a good gunsmith. You don't have to reinvent reloading. This is called wildcatting. Guys have always done it. The ones with 3 fingers and a 50 bmg bolt sticking out of their head are doing it wrong.
As the chamber reamer wears down at the factory it gets tighter. The first ones cut have a big chamber. If you have the last one cut and the neck is tight or tapered it can be easily fixed by reaming. Unless you have measured it you won't know. If you can't cast your chamber and measure it have it done. Or try measuring the fired brass but it is less accurate.
Older brass that has been shot many times will be thicker toward the neck. Military brass will be harder but not always thicker. Softer brass flows more. Neck reaming and neck turning are easy and increases the potential for accuracy if done well.
But, nothing works if you got a bad barrel. Shooting tight necks or chambers can really ruin your day. If it doesn't fit, don't force it. You are not the first to have this problem. Seek help from a pro.
Don't go off all the internet sources. I run .311 projectiles with ppu cases. Some measure much larger than what my chamber can run supposedly. My suggestion is to take a couple samples and see if they cycle through YOUR gun before you toss a bunch of brass for no reason.
I literally have had only 1 out of about 10 thousand or so cases I have formed from range pickup fail to chamber and fire. It was a 204 ruger case that I tried to form a 300 blk case from.
Barrel manufacturers know a lot of 300 blk users make their own brass, you would think they would factor that in when they made thier barrels.
That being said, I'm sure there are many tight chambered barrels out there but check first!
you need to both anneal your brass then turn your necks. You can either do on outside turn or use an inside neck reamer. This will solve your problems. You tube these topics and it will show you what to do.
+Whackamole now Ive just been using lake city brass without turning and setting aside all oversize brands aside for now. I might get into neck turning someday.
On the thicker necks, try a neck trimmer, I use them for other reasons but you can take the neck down and be perfectly straight and round,,good luck
If you are familiar with Neck Turning in precision rifle reloading, this step would be a method for bringing out of spec brass into acceptable thickness spec. It only needs to be done once and can be used to standardize all of your 300BLK converted brass. Takes about 30 seconds per piece once the tools are dialed in. Look at K&M Shooting and RCBS for options.
Yes, it is a good option If you are out for benchrest accuracy or the right brass is unobtainable but most people shoot this round in high volume and might want to avoid the extra step if possible.
True. Benchrest shooters use neck turning. I'm going to start chopping 223 brass for 300 BLK this week. Thanks for sharing this info about differing case neck wall thickness issues.
i think it all depends on your chamber if it has tight tolerance it dosent let enough expansion to release the bullet thus creating high preasure
Alot of the brass I've come across is so oversized it will even fail to feed.
robb8618 ya me to you would have to necksize those ones. more work.ill stay with rem cases
I just started loaded 300 blackout. With first ten to determine load I had one bullet get lodged into breech. With the help of a screw driver I was able to remove. After inspecting to determine what went wrong find case wall thickness around .017. It was a geco. I purchased my brass from Amazon. I got a list from forum with head stamps to watch for a sifted through my brass. Found several that were unusable. Live and learn I guess. Out of 2000 only lost 200 cases. So sell them and get more.
Patrick Pedigo Yep, I found out the hard way, too. I've been trying to stick with lake city brass. It has done me well so far.
.308 case neck reamer solved my problem with thick-walled brass
This video is breaking my heart. Because the vast majority of my 5.56 stockpile is indeed PMC X-tac m193 ammo. I also have 200 rounds of prvi partisan. I have a lot of IMI M193. 95% of my ammo storage that I planned on using to reload 300blk with are these brands you speak of. I am going to be using a tapered crimp die so maybe that will help me. Also all of the ammo I have used for training classes/range has been from a reloading company that uses 5.56/.223 brass. And I haven’t had one failure in 1250 rounds from them. So I probably have a forgiving chamber in my rifle.
If you ever look at a Half Cut Out of a .223 vs 5.56, you’ll see that one will actually have thicker/more brass around the shoulder and neck area, and also at the bottom of the cartridge around the base.
And also there’s like a slight “ inside “ taper. ( if that makes any sense)
I haven’t started reloading yet, but now I’m thinking I’m gonna cut a .300 blkout case and .223 and 5.56, and see which is closest to what.
Before and after resizing.
your rite i had a preasure problem with miliatery brass loading at min and figuered out the neck was to big loaded reminton brass exactly the same and no problem
I plan to get into 300BLK shooting and reloading. THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP. John
John Budesa Glad I could help.
I purchased once fired 223 556 brass from the range and had the same problem. All of The loaded rounds fit beautifully in a case gauge 1/3 of them won't chamber in an AR and have to be mortared out. In a ruger the bolt won't close and I have to tap the bolt handle to get them to eject. I brought them home and put them all thru the case gauge again and perfect.???? I found a chart of wall thickness by headstamp online there are alot of manufacturers that should not be cut down to 300blk for this issue.
Inside Neck reaming or turning the case neck might fix these issues...
So I don't know if you already figured out how to fix your issue but I was having the same problems. I went a bought a two die set from RCBS and let me tell you what. It's fixed all my problems from stuck cases to failure to feed. I thought I was going to have to get rid of all my foreign cases but turns out this full length sizing die will get them right. Takes a little more effort but just a tad more.
I should ad lol it's not a neck length trimmer but it will trim and make your neck round, there are several kinds, look on the tube about neck trimming and concentric it yet..it's used a lot doing bench shooter reloading..keep up the vids
If you are going to roll your own.
You might as well do 7.62X40WC.
also
A dial caliper is no bueno for measuring brass thickness.
Neck turning? I'm just getting into the blackout reloading and have a hornady neck turning tool. great information BTW
Thank you for the info. I was thinking of using the LC brass
Two of us just went thru all this. ALL the cases we loaded a bullet into fell right in the case gauge with no trouble! We went thru over 1,000 cases and pulled alot of the ones shown here. Loaded bullet only, went right onto case gauge....go figure
From my research, the case walls are thicker on the ones which are not initially fitting case gauge. After you seat and crimp, it is putting more compression on the bullet to bring it to spec. This can cause un-even pressures between rounds. Therefore causing some inaccuracy especially when shooting at longer ranges. If one side of the case is slightly thicker than the other, can cause some bullet wobble too (results in more inaccuracy).
After initial resizing, neck turning and neck reaming would bring the neck back to spec and provide more consistency. I’m still researching this and still trying to find out when to do the reaming. Have heard only after fire-forming, before FL resize...but this is not making logical sense to me. Logic tells me to FL resize, then ream, then turn.
Don’t toss that brass, send it to me or someone else who knows what to do with it. LOL
Keep posting great videos.
RWS cases along with Canadian IVI cases are too thick as well. Also, it's not just the neck diameter, the internal case dimensions will be less as well.
So is annealing necessary after cutting these down? Before or after resizing?
My 500 cases of PMC 5.56 resized to 300 BLK are fine. Maybe because the cases are 8 to 12 years old; things at PMC may have been run tighter back then.
Gary Smeltzer It seems to me that only an occasional pmc will be oversize and might not chamber while most all the prvi partisans I've handled were oversize. I like lake city about the best. They are consistent and usually easy to find.
robb8618 Lake city does seems finer, on that we agree.
Great video. Very helpful.👍
Kinda dry video, but AWESOME info - not everything is binary-range-days! Thanks for the video!
That explained my problem! Thanks!
I believe what you're calling Remington Peters brass is actually Remington Products (Remington Arms Co.). I think this is UMC brass which is common in bulk packs.
ExplOregon It likely is. The R-P brass that I have was picked up at ranges. I haven't shot any Rem .223 that I can think of so I dont know about the packaging, but it seems to work well for re-purposing to blackout along with Lake City.
Sheridan gauge for 300BLK is your friend. Beats taking all these measurements...
never mind i should have waited till the end of video before asking my question
+CMiller87 lake city is the way to go. Thanks for watching.
You cant measure the case thickness like that with calipers because it is leaving a gap on the inside . U need a pin mic to measure them or load a round in it and measure over the entire case neck . And calipers are not accurate. Get a set of mic's
You're correct because your measuring the curve plus the brass.
I know this is old but do small base resizing dies help.
use the RCBS 300 blk sizing die. I started with a Lee 33 blk sizing die and had 70% issues with forming brass. when I went to RCBS I have had maybe 5 issues out of about 3000 rounds converted. one headstamp was causing issues and I forgot to write it down.
@@leoncordero9083 did you bother to or have the ability to anneal and see if that changed anything?
@@yolo-qr2fq on a few I did, maybe 2 out of the 5
Great info, thanks man
First of all, you are placing too much credence in the measurements taken with an inexpensive, uncalibrated dial caliper. I'n not saying they're reading good, bad or otherwise, but most machinists use dial calipers only to approximate the measurement, within .005" and use micrometers calibrated with a precision standard to confirm the accuracy of their measurements.
Exactly . Needs a set of pin mic's ti measure case neck thickness
Most nice ones go to tenths now but I agree with your general statement, super accurate go with the mics
Would neck turning bring the thicker cases into the correct tolerance? That would salvage them for reloading.
Yes that would work but its alot of extra time spent.
robb8618 Yeah, it takes extra time, but you only have to do it once. 300 Blackout is a low pressure round, especially if you're loading sub sonic.
Since you specifically mentioned PMC, do you know if the problem is with 223 and 556, or just 223? I know this is old, but thought I'd try anyway. Thanks for the info.
Its both 223 and 5.56 that you need to watch out for. I have seen a few foreign made 556 cases that were too heavy also. For the most part if you stick with us made you will be ok.
Great video!! Would you mind if I added this link to my website?
Not at all, go right ahead. Thanks.
informative.. Thank you.
Bryan Strait Your welcome.
The PMC reloads i have i cant get the bolt lugs to lock.
Rusty Shackleford Yep, The Pmc brass that i have encountered seems to be borderline on chambering. Some will, some wont. It sounds like you found out the hard way just like I did. I ended up pulling bullets out of about 50 loads in PPU cases that i loaded before I realized there would be an issue. About the only thing to do to make the cases usable is to invest in the equipment to do neck turning or uniforming. I find it easier just to stick with lake city brass and ream the crimp out of the primer pockets. they have been very consistent and cases are easy to find.
Haven't started yet but how would Fiocchi 223 brass work for 300 black out.
I use fiocchi brass, 223 and military and works well, .011 or .012, regards
I'm supposed to get a bunch of WCC '12 mil brass. I know I'd need to spot check but do you think overall if a few are good then most are good?
Thanks for the informative video.
+Zaappp !!! If they are all the same headstamp and you test a handfull and get consistent measurements that pass then you should be fine to process the whole lot. I've cut a few WCC's down and I don't recall ever coming across any that didn't work but its always best to check a few anyway.
WCC is typically very good brass to form 300 blk from. Both from my personal experience and various Internet sources.
Douglas Thompson Thanks for the info. I got about 1700 lbs of 5.56 mixed with 9mm and a sprinkling of what looks like nickel plated .357 Sig.
+Zaappp !!! ...damn. that's a lot! good deal
I'm relatively new to this cartridge. So a question is do 5.56 brass work?
Yes most of them do. Try to use Lake city if you can find them.
robb8618 thank you for the info, another question is does ZQI or Wolf Gold work? I know you said most foreign ones don't work. wanted to know if those had any luck at all.
have you had any problems with 5.56 brass i'm looking into reloading 300 aac and i have mostly 5.56 brass
+CMiller87 I'm no expert by any means but I have been researching this question as much as I can and it seems other re-loaders in .300 have run into this problem mainly with foreign made .223 casings. You can look up on google head stamp Wikipedia to find all the head stamp signatures and just don't use the foreign made ones. Their walls seem to be too thick when made for some reason. Additionally the info in this video is very helpful to measure wall thickness to see if they are out of spec. for the .300. It's an time consuming additional process I know but It will be worth it for me to get my .300 cycling as it should and restore my confidence in using this as a self defense weapon. Good luck..Retired Veteran..
Good video...thanks. Have you tried military 5.56 brass?..they are thicker walls as I have read. I've had some cycling issues and now wondering if the military brass walls are just too thick??
+Larry Norby Actually the lake city 556 brass is about the best to use. I have come across some mil spec brass that is too thick, mainly headshamp "TAA". I think they are made overseas. The federal lake city brass is very commom and very consistant.
+robb8618 Thank you very much for responding. The ones I usually find at the ranges is WCC..I guess the only way to know for sure is to measure the thickness before I use. Just trying to trouble shoot why I am having cycling issues constantly. I will start by replacing followers/springs in my USGI mags although I've tried other mags and still have cycling issues. Already changed out my BCG to an upgraded one. Also polished my ramp and inside upper. I am determined to correct this issue. I will also try different cases and possible buy a adjustable gas tube. I have mine set up with a pistol gas system. I'll upgrade/replace one item at a time until the problem is corrected. In my 23 years of firing the AR in the military I have not run into this problem. Again, thank you for your very informative video young man. I remain hopeful I will determine the problem. Any thoughts on your side would be most helpful......Retired Veteran
+Larry Norby I have used some WCC's with no problem. can you slowly charge the gun easily and get the bolt fully closed with the fwd assist fairly easily and eject the round easily without firing it. if you can extract it with the charging handle with reasonable force then your problems might be elsewhere. In order to help you, I would need more details on exactly what its doing. If it wont cycle while actually firing, you might need to try a different powder or test some factory loads to rule out your handloads as culprit. Is it short stroking or failing to extract or what exactly?
+robb8618 I'll get back to you on that..
+robb8618 one of your followers claims you are using the wrong gauge to get accurate measurements for inside/outside diameters?? Your thoughts on that?? Do/should I invest in another gauge than my standard gauge that came with my Dillon X650?
Are the cases you are calling out of spec not chambering in your rifle?
+Brian Almond a lot of them wont, and if you try to unload it, they will get stuck.
+robb8618 Same hear.. I also notice when I get the round out their is sometimes damage to the tips of the projectile and/or case mouth area.
+Larry Norby The damage to the tips of the projectile are from the feed ramp not being a 30 caliber ramp. Usually 300 blk uppers have m4 feed ramps and the barrel extension also is the same cuts a .223/5.56 barrel would have.
So what is the solution??
.223 brass is different from 5.56 brass right? Besides the length, isn't 5.56 thicker? Is it ok to use both with the same grain load of powder in both types of brass?
jack suquett I find that brass will vary more between manufactures than between 556/223. It will be ok to use either or mixed brass as long as you watch the dimensions on each brand used to avoid problems like stated in video. if you are going for benchrest accuracy, you are best suited to finding one type and sticking with that. I have had great luck with Federal lake city 5.56 brass for accuracy and consistancy. I use these for my supersonics for longer range precision and all the other random stuff i pick up at range I like to use for subsonics since they will be likely used for shorter range plinking. The primer crimp is the biggest relevant difference between 223/556. On 5.56's you will have to remove the primer crimp but thats no big deal. Always start out at starting powder weights and gradually work your way up while watching for any sign of overpressure in your fired cases.
Thank you for replying though. I'm looking in to possibly building a .300 BLK upper. If I do, I definitely want to load for those rounds since ammo is so freakin expensive! Especially in California! We honestly pay almost double compared to gun friendly states, and the lack of dealers here in So Cal take advantage of that.
jack suquett I know what you mean, Im in Texas and the ammo is scarce, expensive and I have gotten much more accurate results with handloads anyway. My biggest problem is finding the right powders. I like accurate1680 for subs and either lil' gun or h110 for supers. These powders are in such demand because of blackout popularity they are a pain to find.
Still? Well...your in Texas! I can only imagine how many people are buying and building SBR's and pistols chambered in BLK. Wish I was there man! I would probably be getting much more into it if I had the freedoms you guys do. Still trying to get out there though! Hopefully something turns up where I can get out of this socialist state!
+jack suquett jack I realy dont think its any differnt other than charge and primer and also the weight of the bullet itself. most good brass is lake city for both .223 or 5.56. I am told by very reliable sources that Lake city uses new 5.56 brass to roll out the .300 blk. I dont realy reload .300 I do a lot of .223 though and have found Federal and lake city to be the best, with crimped primer you must standerize the pockett. primers i recomend the military grade cci has them expensive but in a ar or any other simi auto with a floating firing pin a good safety measure.