Interesting as Usual, Peter! For getting a kinda-defined cutting-edge-dulling/rounding, a diamondsponge or even a cratex stick can work wonders, carefully ran allong the cutting edge.
We have a company in the neightborhood that offers this as a service. they put a defined micro-radius on the cutting edge to extend the tool life, especially for really expensive reamers and punch-dies
Stefan showed results of cratex in one of his videos. I purchased one of their sample sets. Great stuff. Fantastic results on the stainless 17-4 I am turning.
@@EdgePrecision you need to get the nylon bristle diamond impregnated brush wheel on your cutter grinder. This is how I consistently hone every tool our company makes
I work in Quality Control, for the cement industry... This Channel really helps me to focus on details,when doing QC analysis!!... Thanks,.. One of the Best channels on RUclips!!.................. 👍.
Hey, you are always interesting. Turns out that I have a job where I have to ream an arc down a blind hole and what you explained was right down my alley. Thanks, it's going to save me a bunch of trial and error.
It's such a pleasure to watch any person that's at the top of their game. You are definitely in that elite group. Your willingness to share your experience and knowledge is a real compliment to your skill and ability. This video is not boring by any stretch.
Thanks Randy, yes these parts are expensive parts. I don't even know the end cost because I don't do everything to them. Just my machine work and that is expensive. But they get there moneys worth. It takes a lot of time to do parts like this. In some ways it's a little aggravating. I wish I could just run the parts. But also it's a learning experience. Every one of these type of parts is a little different and requires this sort of R&D type of stuff.
Similar situation as a young Navy Machinist in 1967. The Division Lt. Commander wanted it "done his way" and passed down through the chain; W-4, E-9, E-6 to me E-4. I got the Machinist Bible down and sent the specs back up through the chain. Well, I was the June bug as far as the Lt. was concerned. All others agreed with that same book, that they had grown in service with! 🤐🤐🤐🤐 Short story: that Destroyer "did not" leave Pearl Harbor with the Fleet!🤔
@Tony Wilson True! I was trying to capture the saying that goes: "Any idiot can build a bridge for a billion dollars; a good engineer can build that same bridge for a hundred million." E g, the fundamental function of engineering is trade-off and balance: don't spend much more than necessary to achieve the necessary goals. Many big engineering misses come from misunderstanding the goals (requirements) rather than mistakes in trying to achieve those specific goals. (Then there's those people who seem to have found their education in a cereal box. I have no explanation for that phenomenon, other than issuing diplomas for all attendees is the most profitable course for many small private universities.)
I'm not sure if, when Peter says the customer didn't like the surface finish, he was speaking from past experience with other parts. Is it a thing with expensive part surface finishes that you give the customer some examples of the process results to approve?
You’re definitely a true craftsman and your content is truly inspiring. It all really calls to question what an individual is truly capable of. Great work! Thank you for filming you’re work.
I'm not a die hard machinist at all and watched it all. I am an electrical engineer and I find your channel amazing. It is fascinating to see the details of operations I would never be able to do. Thanks for the posts.
We did not make it to the end because we are not die hard machinist, we just know we are watching a Master craftsman at work. Thank you so very much Peter.
Very informative Peter, Thank you. I would like to hear more about the odd number of flutes and the way they work. I had a problem with a job years ago and it was solved with the odd number flute cutter.
Very Interesting Video. And yes I am one of those die hard machinist's and I pull my head for you. The complexity of these parts is insane. When you said the is a 1/4 20 tapped hole in the bottom I totally lost my mind. Thanks for sharing
I loved every minute of it; thanks Peter! Liked, commented, subscribed :D. Your channel is one of the few I am always excited to see pop up in my feed. Thanks for your time and effort. It's much appreciated.
This was riveting almost mesmerizing and a lot to think and do about. Looking forward to the polishing tool video. Thanks for making this ! @Edge Precision. The Borescope shots looked really great for a borescope then shot on a DSLR and thrown up on youtube :-) Great to be able to spend time to see the different tool geometries you mostly made and really super insights. That worked really well.
This "Old School", die hard, watched the entire video! Well done! I had in the back of my mind while watching: a) Higher helix b) taper, as discussed The pre-finish of finishing tools was used by Hydraulic Research Inc. / Apollo Program, was the Old School way. Tool set-up length & chatter is always the problem! ~~~~~ After reviewing your tool options at the end: Question, are you working in a blind hole as compared to a through bore? The test material, as shown appears to have through holes. 1) Would it be possible to obtain a hollow (1/8” ID) tool blank, in order to inject coolant through the throat of the tool as opposed to flooding externally? If possible, the tool set-up could be greatly shortened in order to reduce tool deflection/chatter issue. Additionally, the injected coolant would enhance tool cooling and chip removal, reducing the potential of having a pulverized chip ball, inside the finished bore. External flooding works to oppose the helix flow of the tool. 2) If it is a through hole then you would need to have ported flutes. ($$$$) Or you could temporarily, plug the through hole. Have you tried different C/L tool position and cutting edge rake? If it a serious situation, then tweak the tooling specks. All that I have seen, in this project, ain’t cheap!
Alan Munroe Agree tighter helix may help. Would it cut more like a shear tool? Would a variable helix help? Tighter towards the tip. Also how about a carbide 'ring' weight just behind the flutes. Thats what you would do in electronics. Increase the mass to shift the resonant frequency.
@@gillywild Adding excess/extra helix could lead to overtly weakening the cutting edge, edge flaking, etc.! The resonant frequency ring, if needed as a last resort, I would use something lighter and less dense, to reduce tool droop. That option would require internal coolant injection as described in the edited comment.
Thanks for the super informative content peter! Although I’m still only running manual machines in my business your knowledge and tips have helped this young engineer no end!
Ive all ways been fasinated not with the product but how it is made,the general public have no conception of how every day things are made,even your machineing station some human has had to lay a phisical hand on the machine, keep up the good work.
I was having trouble with a .0002 20 micron finish, the buyer stopped by looked at the part told me the part was just a wrench and the nickel plating was not listed on the print and the part now went from .0001 to .005 and $280 to $80 but I was much happier and the design engineer got a talking to
I have often written a macro or subroutine to replace a canned cycle that lacks some feature. These days it wouldn't faze me to buy a machine that didn't even have any canned cycles. Same with conversational controls, they were great in their day, and handy for some quick jobs, but I can't recall the last time I even used any of them.
Killer stuff. I don't think there is a way to make this sort of content exciting but it's cool to follow your thinking Peter. Must be nice to have a CNC tool grinder for that. Last weird form I had to do was by hand on a diamond wheel out of a 3/8" Kennametal end mill.
And would it be worth to try a minute flute scheme like with a reamer. In this way you might get rid of the lower freqquency vibrations and move into higher ones that leave less marks? You would need to start with a stock that has a central channel for fluid to remove the shavings and do slow feeds so the shavings are small and can be ejected through the tiny flutes.
I always have to do a G1 on poring tools with a spot face because of chatter. Do like you said, drill normal to a depth and drill the remainder of the depth at a much slower rpm. Of course I have a 91 cat 40 machine so that doesn’t help much.
Thanks for your video, it would be interesting to see the cutting tool grinding process too. Have you considered using “Granlund” Roller Pilot Through Coolant combined with their counterbore. Modify the counterbore so it can only make the camfer and the machine the hole to it final diameter. Also the cutting lube from Rocol could help your special tool and improve the surface quality.
Great job Peter. I think surface finish is one of the most subjective specs especially on features like bores and spot faces that the inspector or customer must do visually and compare to standards. I also think that this is one area where design engineers get carried away and specify finishes that really are way more than necessary. I specifically saw this at a job I had years ago with o-ring grooves and spot faces. I think the handbooks call out for something like a 16 finish when in reality a 32 or even 63 would work fine.
@@EdgePrecision You can only try and make them happy I guess. Where I used to work (very big company) the shop called us because they knew we could talk to our designers and inspectors and get them to sign off on the part since we were the end user. We sometimes could get the designers change the drawings to prevent future issues. With the parts you do Peter who knows maybe they really need those kind of finishes for metal seals or something?
Surface finish isn't really subjective. Ra is a metrological spec that is quantifiable. Most people just don't have a surface finish testing machine, so they make it subjective because they have to go by eye, and compare it to a known sample. (Like Peter had to do.)
Andrew Delashaw Yes you can measure it but in this case the customer doesn’t want vertical lines in these bores. The profilometer can’t stroke perpendicular to the round bore. So you have to measure length wise down the bore. This doesn’t pick up the surface finish deviations of vertical hills and valleys. So in these cases it’s left to a visual comparison.
Very interesting! To help with reflections when it matters and adjusting the lights doesn't help, with exposure locked, try moving a gray index card around and see if that helps with reflections. Not so convenient, but might be worth trying when it matters.
I'm just a hobbyist with a home workshop but I find Peter's videos so interesting and compelling. What is the application of these parts that they need such a high specification finish?
you'll be making plastic plug gauges so you don't scratch the bore or air gauges, 30 years ago I was honing type 2 titanium medical parts guessing 3/16 bore used 2 different type of Sunnen stones, 1 was cutting stone then a finishing stone. there is company that makes roller burnishing tool but you so many steps per bore. I'm very interested in your tooling, change rake angle then have a little land then clearance angle. if you have bad top chamfer i'd make a roller type chamfer tool. are you using acrylic bore rods for inspection. you can use high speed polishing in the bores but those are deep. thank you very interesting.
This dude is one of the baddest machinst out there hands down! U can tell just by the way he posts these instructional videos with ease! Much love cutting edge precision!
it would work if you had easy access to those features, but look at the size of some of the cutters, and they are multistepped, you're just bound to bugger up some edges and round off every single corner if you try and do this freehand, and it will show up on the bore scope, and considering the cost of those parts, and equipment available to him (the cnc cutter grinder), it just makes all the sense to solve those issues the way he did it without resorting to hand finishing
Does the tool have to have cutting surfaces the full depth of the hole. To wit, couldn't you have the hole cutting aspect only include the shoulder and a little bit up. This would look like this... _____ ______ | \___________ | \_______| instead of __________________ | _______________| | Also, since almost no material is being removed (due to the roughing cuts), couldn't the grooves of the flutes be made very shallow? This would provide greater rigidity to the cutting edge and so perhaps less chatter and smoother finish.
This can work and I have done this on some tools. The only thing is to not relieve the area to much to where shavings can get in between the tool and the bore. This can cause the shavings to mar the finish. But as I said I have done this on some tools as well.
@@EdgePrecision Another thing I've seen is a variable twist that start short and gets longer up the flute. Heh, anything to get rid of harmonic resonance based chatter. Right?
Yes my grinder can grind what is known as variable pitch (The way these tools are) and variable helix. Where the helix changes it's angle along the flutes length. This can start fast and end slow or the reverse. Start slow and end fast. Or you can do both in the same tool. Have a variable pitch and helix. All these are designed to damp vibration as you say.
Thank you for another great in-depth video. I wonder if there is a feasible option of coating your self ground endmills? the coating makes the edge rounded off.. probably would make the lead time for the experiment longer and pricier though... guess thats why you hone them like you mentioned. is it possibly to grind that micro honed edge into the tool? in the grinding machine?
Thanks Slavik Marinovski. There is a place here in town that can do the coatings and I have used them before. The coating would help for a number of reasons. As to grinding/honing the tool on the grinder. This is a older machine and has no cycle for this.
Good evening Peter. I usually don't comment or none of your videos because I don't feel qualified to do so but on this one I find it very interesting and very curious. As far as the Finish goes in the beginning I assume that you are showing different levels of finish. Which appears to me that none of them finishes could possibly seal without some sort of pressure fitting such as a nut and a bolt tighten down extremely tight not knowing what the part does I can only assume that but finish you are worried about are concerned about must seal properly. Once again I don't understand part you're working on but it seems to me that all of the finishers you're showing couldn't possibly seal. Once again Peter thank you for very interesting video
No these are finish standards. At these magnifications everything looks bad. A standard o-ring seal uses a 32 finish. This is what they really look like.
Ya made it all the way. Holy turtle wax bat man that thing was ready for sema anfd the customer complained . It would make sense to profile some sort of drill for a hole like that . Even if there where an even bigger geometric conspiracy like a grove with taper's at both ends hog out and next tool done big 4X4 bin I was thinking three flute you went 5 and did'nt even think reamer style flute spacing was on the table next time i play three card monty with ya I'll know more. ha ha cool show
Well I'm not a machinist of any type, but I made it through to the end without any thought of skipping it. As I said, I'm not a machinist, so please forgive me if this is a stupid question. I was wondering if it would be possible to add a collar of some type to the longer tools in an attempt to increase the mass, and reduce the vibration in that manner?
John you are correct the more mass in the shank would help. Where these long tools are being there isn't room in the bore. Look at the last photos in this video. You can see the actual holes in the part. They are in the bottom of the bores.
@@EdgePrecision thanks Peter. It did strike after I'd posted the question that there would be a very good reason for you using the geometry of tool you were using when the tooling was custom ground. However, thank you for humouring me and my question, and I look forward to the follow up to this video.
Is there any provision for electrolysis finishing? Not sure of the proper term, but electrolyte solution, and anode/cathode centered from all walls should remove the peaks equally from all geometry. Not really useful for outer surfaces but blind holes seems to be a good application
@@TimLF He's talking about electropolishing. EDM is completely different. You could do this with a sinker EDM, but Peter doesn't have a sinker machine.
You might want to get yourself a circular polariser. Since you can adjust what its taking out for reflections. It also darkens things some to help bring the detail out for the camera. So the highlights are not washing everything out quite so much.
I have seen this comment from many people. I don't think they understand what is going on here. What you are seeing is what the bore scope is seeing not my camera. there is no way to put a filter on the bore scope. Unless you are talking about the end shots than I agree.
@@EdgePrecision I was talking primarily for the camera not the bore scope. I have yet to try adapating a polariser to a bore scope. But it has been on my mind to try at some point. I have often found the optics on many small devices to be complete poop. So I will often use a reverse lens setup with a bellows. Then take a series of stacked images. I am guessing your in the range of 0.5-0.250 inches, for the entire frame with the scope?
Can’t use cutting oil. Can’t run this machine with the doors open. But the high pressure coolant works fine. The short tools work fine. It’s the long tools that give problems.
maybe try a ring of lead pressed on the shank and a rubber donut/hose piece over that to make a dampener. I use a chuck of lead on long parts in the lathe and on brake rotors to remove the ringing chatter
What you're calling scratches from the gauges, that's really just burnishing, yes? i.e., it isn't raising a burr, just flattening the surface asperities, and the mark is just how it looks with the surface texture from cutting slightly smoothed over?
please do this, indicate the taper spindle bore on machine, if r/o is more then .0002 cut spindle speed down. you will be surprised how the taper tool holders don't fit perfectly to spindle , run a blueing test see if it has 100% contact
This machine has a Capto taper on the milling spindle. First it cant be indicated as you say. Its not round. The Capto tool also makes a face contact with the spindle face. I have tested this spindle with a Capto test bar and it runs true. But you are correct run out is a factor and I have taken it in to consideration.
Yes there was a very small depth of field the way I took these clips and the lens I used. I didn't notice until I was editing the video. I hope it wasn't to distracting sorry.
Is there a way for you to make a burnishing tool for this specific application? I was thinkin about a study that was done a little way back I remember reading about the "unwinding" the flutes of a tool experience during rotation, it was oddly disproportionate to the shear plane of the material. It concluded with the notion that lead to 6 and 8 flute tools with really shallow flute depth.
Could you ream the smallest hole and then put I pilot on the end of the bit that will support the tool at the end? You could still drill out to just under the next size up and have the pilot be used just at the end .250" or hover long the pilot is. If not please explain so I can learn. 😁
mind blowing attention to detail the sad part is the surface finish spec is probably really not needed for it to function. as im sure your aware there whats on the print and what actually works in the real world
@@EdgePrecision ohhhhh one of those yeah im sorry ive dealt with those type before had one that really stuck with me for years about being .0002 over on a bushing bore now this a is a 4 inch i.d bushing mind you, hes chewing me out i see the guy whos installing the bushings heat this part up with a rosebud and grabs a bushing from a cooler of dry ice drops it into the bore and drives it home with a driver tool and a 5lbs sledge hammer. after i told the q.a where to stick his report and showed him how the bushings were installed he never spoke to me again.
If you are referring to the holes the vertical lines are caused by the tool chattering or vibration as it feeds into the hole. This isn't a turning operation but for the finish standard its finish could be considered similar because of the way the tool feeds constantly in and cuts with its tip like a turning tool would.
I have never run a burnishing tool in titanium. It may work but the problem is there are minim corner radius specified and a burnish tool needs to big a radius. In a few of these holes. And than there are the chamfers. How would that be done? With another burnishing tool? That might throw a burr into the hole. The chamfer is for a o-ring to enter. But I don’t know it may be possible.
@@EdgePrecision I would contact Cogsdill and see what they say. If a burnishing tool could be made to work it would sure give the best results with the least amount of time.
@@EdgePrecision Wouldn't a burnishing tool in this case just be a finish tool that instead of having a cutting edge has the cutting edge and relief ground as a smooth curve? You would still have all of the steps and chamfers as part of the tool geometry, so I don't see it rounding corners on the chamfers. I imagine you could even do a tool that had almost no flutes and was basically a plug gauge, but the whole surface was done as a series of say 7 or 9 waves, varying in diameter by a few thousandths over 20 degrees or so. I'd obviously be concerned or downright worried about surface heating and possible friction welding to the tool, but a light touch for a second or two on a hole that was already to (or almost to) size might be safe. Through-tool coolant to the tip and flowing back along the tool might help.
@@EdgePrecision Peter It costs few bucks but for you it would be very useful. Also, since you photograph still objects, it is useless to use the flash, which can cause annoying reflections. Use a tripod and ambient light with very slow shutter speeds and f8 or f11 aperture. You have a digital camera so you don't have to worry about wasting film. Some corrections (exposure and colour temperature) can be made later in post production.
Now I am very curious indeed to find out if you could use an eddy current instrument and a *very* high frequency probe to measure that roughness without making contact...
@@EdgePrecision It's a non-destructive inspection instrument; basically the item is used as the secondary in a transformer. One thing it can measure is the distance from the probe to the part (easily in thousandths and perhaps in finer resolution) and perhaps it could be extended to surface roughness. Just an idle thought.
Thanks vizibug. Actually the USA isn't a Democracy it's a Republic. But I get your point. I am using a reamer on some holes in these parts. But these stepped hole have certain angles, radius and steps that would require the reamers to be modified anyway and many more tools to do these holes. Also in effect these tools are custom reamers.
If there was no vibration/runout than it wouldn't matter. But there is always vibration or runout in a tool. Even more so on long overhang tools. The theory behind it is not that it gives a better finish but that it would reduce the possibility of vibration or harmonics (which would ruin the finish) . This could be caused by flutes of equal spacing landing in the same marks/valleys that the previous flutes at the same time. Have you ever drilled a hole in something but the hole wasn't round? This is what happens to a exaggerated scale. Or maybe a better analogy could be. If you drive your car over a speed bump square it is much more severe that at a angle where two wheels aren't contacting the bump at the same time. I hope that makes some kind of sense. Its a little hard to explain in a comment.
Yes coolant is good. But in this case there was a very fine chatter/marks left by the tool due to some form of vibration. It really couldn't be seen without magnification. Even though the finish was in tolerance the customer would not buy it.
The McMaster one is a little less by two dollars. I would go for the one like I showed. It has actual separate specimens about 1/4" thick. I have seen other ones that are one piece like sheet metal with areas of different finish they aren't as good.
What if you made your finishing tool with 6-8 flutes, would this help with vibration? Because the flutes would be more shallow, therefore making the tool more rigid and reducing the vibration.
I think a odd number of flutes work better say 5,7,9. I think the long tool overhang is more the problem. Also the more the flutes on a stepped tool like this it becomes hard to grind the relief angles without hitting the other flutes with the grinding wheel. You need to keep reducing the diameter of the wheel. I don’t have any small enough in diameter to do it.
Are some of these changes you made to the cutting tools just because of the material? Or do you think these changes you made would work for other materials also? Charles
@@EdgePrecision Thank you for your reply, we do sometimes get a bit lazy and just accept tooling as it comes. Nice for you to detail the changes you made and why. I will keep these in mind next time I look at having custom tooling made. Charles
I grind them to the size I need. I’m not sure I understand your question. If you are referring to a standard size. Let’s say 1/2” or .500”. A standard centerless ground .500 blank will really be .4997-.4998” in diameter. So really all .500” diameter endmills will really be .499-.4995” in diameter at the closest. Is that what you mean. In that case standard sizes will always slightly under. Thanks for the comment.
Edge Precision I’m sorry I didn’t get that out in a way that someone would understand! What I meant was, do the tools you make always cut right to size or do you have to adjust the size of the tool to cut what size you want? I know you machine a lot of titanium and I was just curious if your tools cut right to size
Interesting as Usual, Peter!
For getting a kinda-defined cutting-edge-dulling/rounding, a diamondsponge or even a cratex stick can work wonders, carefully ran allong the cutting edge.
Thanks Stefan. I have some cratex for some reason I didn’t think of this. I will try it. Thanks again!
We have a company in the neightborhood that offers this as a service. they put a defined micro-radius on the cutting edge to extend the tool life, especially for really expensive reamers and punch-dies
@@moinky2k Heh, as a marketing jingle they could say that what they make is not too sharp. :-)
Stefan showed results of cratex in one of his videos. I purchased one of their sample sets. Great stuff. Fantastic results on the stainless 17-4 I am turning.
@@EdgePrecision you need to get the nylon bristle diamond impregnated brush wheel on your cutter grinder. This is how I consistently hone every tool our company makes
Thanks Peter, you make a “boring” subject interesting
I work in Quality Control, for the cement industry... This Channel really helps me to focus on details,when doing QC analysis!!... Thanks,.. One of the Best channels on RUclips!!.................. 👍.
Glad I could be of help!
It was a deep dive into finishes and speeds and tool grinding, but, It's interesting to see a real pro at work. Thanks.
Hey, you are always interesting. Turns out that I have a job where I have to ream an arc down a blind hole and what you explained was right down my alley. Thanks, it's going to save me a bunch of trial and error.
It's such a pleasure to watch any person that's at the top of their game. You are definitely in that elite group. Your willingness to share your experience and knowledge is a real compliment to your skill and ability. This video is not boring by any stretch.
An Edge Precision upload! Exactly what I needed this weekend.
Wow, that is going to be an expensive part. Very interesting about the tools. Thanks Peter.
Thanks Randy, yes these parts are expensive parts. I don't even know the end cost because I don't do everything to them. Just my machine work and that is expensive. But they get there moneys worth. It takes a lot of time to do parts like this. In some ways it's a little aggravating. I wish I could just run the parts. But also it's a learning experience. Every one of these type of parts is a little different and requires this sort of R&D type of stuff.
@@EdgePrecision I bet you will have a lot of time into these parts.
Business person: "can we get away with it?"
Engineer: "is it within spec?"
Craftsman: "is this the best I can achieve?"
Pretty pictures!
Similar situation as a young Navy Machinist in 1967.
The Division Lt. Commander wanted it "done his way" and passed down through the chain; W-4, E-9, E-6 to me E-4. I got the Machinist Bible down and sent the specs back up through the chain. Well, I was the June bug as far as the Lt. was concerned.
All others agreed with that same book, that they had grown in service with! 🤐🤐🤐🤐
Short story: that Destroyer "did not" leave Pearl Harbor with the Fleet!🤔
@Tony Wilson True! I was trying to capture the saying that goes: "Any idiot can build a bridge for a billion dollars; a good engineer can build that same bridge for a hundred million." E g, the fundamental function of engineering is trade-off and balance: don't spend much more than necessary to achieve the necessary goals. Many big engineering misses come from misunderstanding the goals (requirements) rather than mistakes in trying to achieve those specific goals. (Then there's those people who seem to have found their education in a cereal box. I have no explanation for that phenomenon, other than issuing diplomas for all attendees is the most profitable course for many small private universities.)
Definitely next level quality control. Great as usual!
I'm not sure if, when Peter says the customer didn't like the surface finish, he was speaking from past experience with other parts. Is it a thing with expensive part surface finishes that you give the customer some examples of the process results to approve?
I’m not a machinist nor do I ever claim to be. But this is one of those tips that can make or break someone’s career. Incredible video.
You’re definitely a true craftsman and your content is truly inspiring. It all really calls to question what an individual is truly capable of. Great work! Thank you for filming you’re work.
Thanks Mike!
I'm not a die hard machinist at all and watched it all. I am an electrical engineer and I find your channel amazing. It is fascinating to see the details of operations I would never be able to do.
Thanks for the posts.
Of course I made it this far! You're welcome. Have seen no other machinist content that can hold a candle to yours.
Watched until the end, very interesting and excellent information!
Sat through the whole show really enjoy your informative videos keep them coming.
Thank you for showing us the next level of machining and how much thought and work goes into it.
We did not make it to the end because we are not die hard machinist, we just know we are watching a Master craftsman at work. Thank you so very much Peter.
Are these guys just giving you crazy finish specs just to F with you? Amazing work, Peter.
In the end the customer pays for the work, if you overspec you overpay.
@@QinX81 sadly your hairline often pays too :( I don't know why people frown on invoicing for that....
thanks for producing - always educational sir.
We learn something new every time we watch your videos thanks very much for making them
Very informative Peter, Thank you. I would like to hear more about the odd number of flutes and the way they work. I had a problem with a job years ago and it was solved with the odd number flute cutter.
Similar problem with High HP Boats and Airplane, prop wash causes some unusual yaw.
Very Interesting Video. And yes I am one of those die hard machinist's and I pull my head for you.
The complexity of these parts is insane.
When you said the is a 1/4 20 tapped hole in the bottom I totally lost my mind.
Thanks for sharing
I loved every minute of it; thanks Peter! Liked, commented, subscribed :D. Your channel is one of the few I am always excited to see pop up in my feed. Thanks for your time and effort. It's much appreciated.
This was riveting almost mesmerizing and a lot to think and do about. Looking forward to the polishing tool video. Thanks for making this ! @Edge Precision. The Borescope shots looked really great for a borescope then shot on a DSLR and thrown up on youtube :-) Great to be able to spend time to see the different tool geometries you mostly made and really super insights. That worked really well.
This "Old School", die hard, watched the entire video! Well done!
I had in the back of my mind while watching:
a) Higher helix
b) taper, as discussed
The pre-finish of finishing tools was used by Hydraulic Research Inc. / Apollo Program, was the Old School way.
Tool set-up length & chatter is always the problem!
~~~~~
After reviewing your tool options at the end:
Question, are you working in a blind hole as compared to a through bore? The test material, as shown appears to have through holes.
1) Would it be possible to obtain a hollow (1/8” ID) tool blank, in order to inject coolant through the throat of the tool as opposed to flooding externally? If possible, the tool set-up could be greatly shortened in order to reduce tool deflection/chatter issue. Additionally, the injected coolant would enhance tool cooling and chip removal, reducing the potential of having a pulverized chip ball, inside the finished bore. External flooding works to oppose the helix flow of the tool.
2) If it is a through hole then you would need to have ported flutes. ($$$$) Or you could temporarily, plug the through hole.
Have you tried different C/L tool position and cutting edge rake? If it a serious situation, then tweak the tooling specks. All that I have seen, in this project, ain’t cheap!
Alan Munroe Agree tighter helix may help. Would it cut more like a shear tool? Would a variable helix help? Tighter towards the tip. Also how about a carbide 'ring' weight just behind the flutes. Thats what you would do in electronics. Increase the mass to shift the resonant frequency.
@@gillywild Adding excess/extra helix could lead to overtly weakening the cutting edge, edge flaking, etc.!
The resonant frequency ring, if needed as a last resort, I would use something lighter and less dense, to reduce tool droop. That option would require internal coolant injection as described in the edited comment.
Great information Peter. Seen the chatter issue with new sharp tools never thought of fixing them like you did. Thanks going to try it today
Look at what Stefan Gotteswinter commented. He uses some cratex rubbing on the flutes. I think that's even better.
Would love to see the video of grinding the tool
I’m starting to know details for machining in a whole new level. Very interesting.
We would not dream of not watching to the end!!!
Thanks for the super informative content peter! Although I’m still only running manual machines in my business your knowledge and tips have helped this young engineer no end!
Your a weapon Peter. Keep the expert info comming. Great content.
Ive all ways been fasinated not with the product but how it is made,the general public have no conception of how every day things are made,even your machineing station some human has had to lay a phisical hand on the machine, keep up the good work.
Very interesting subject and good explanation why what and how. Looking forward to seeing roller burnishing in the bores.
Thanks for your valuable time . You still make it look easy ..
I would be interested in a video dedicated to cutter grinding if you ever have the opportunity to make one. Very knowledgable content as always.
If you look at my Playlist Star Grinder. There is a video there where I grind a chamfer mill.
@@EdgePrecision I will look for that one. Thank you
Superb video, thanks Peter.
Edge Precision, watched by other machinists to learn. Excellent lesson.
I was having trouble with a .0002 20 micron finish, the buyer stopped by looked at the part told me the part was just a wrench and the nickel plating was not listed on the print and the part now went from .0001 to .005 and $280 to $80 but I was much happier and the design engineer got a talking to
Yes I am a die hard machinist! Great stuff Peter.
ATB, Robin
I made it all the way to the end. Thanks for sharing 😎
very good video thanks for your time..un saludo amigo y gracias por seguir compartiendo tu gran conocimiento..un placer seguir tu canal.
I have often written a macro or subroutine to replace a canned cycle that lacks some feature. These days it wouldn't faze me to buy a machine that didn't even have any canned cycles. Same with conversational controls, they were great in their day, and handy for some quick jobs, but I can't recall the last time I even used any of them.
Killer stuff. I don't think there is a way to make this sort of content exciting but it's cool to follow your thinking Peter. Must be nice to have a CNC tool grinder for that. Last weird form I had to do was by hand on a diamond wheel out of a 3/8" Kennametal end mill.
And would it be worth to try a minute flute scheme like with a reamer. In this way you might get rid of the lower freqquency vibrations and move into higher ones that leave less marks? You would need to start with a stock that has a central channel for fluid to remove the shavings and do slow feeds so the shavings are small and can be ejected through the tiny flutes.
I always have to do a G1 on poring tools with a spot face because of chatter. Do like you said, drill normal to a depth and drill the remainder of the depth at a much slower rpm. Of course I have a 91 cat 40 machine so that doesn’t help much.
Thanks for your video, it would be interesting to see the cutting tool grinding process too. Have you considered using “Granlund” Roller Pilot Through Coolant combined with their counterbore. Modify the counterbore so it can only make the camfer and the machine the hole to it final diameter. Also the cutting lube from Rocol could help your special tool and improve the surface quality.
Would love to find someone extremely skilled like this to apprentice under.
Great job Peter. I think surface finish is one of the most subjective specs especially on features like bores and spot faces that the inspector or customer must do visually and compare to standards. I also think that this is one area where design engineers get carried away and specify finishes that really are way more than necessary. I specifically saw this at a job I had years ago with o-ring grooves and spot faces. I think the handbooks call out for something like a 16 finish when in reality a 32 or even 63 would work fine.
Thanks Bill. Yes you are correct but what can you do?
@@EdgePrecision You can only try and make them happy I guess. Where I used to work (very big company) the shop called us because they knew we could talk to our designers and inspectors and get them to sign off on the part since we were the end user. We sometimes could get the designers change the drawings to prevent future issues. With the parts you do Peter who knows maybe they really need those kind of finishes for metal seals or something?
Surface finish isn't really subjective. Ra is a metrological spec that is quantifiable. Most people just don't have a surface finish testing machine, so they make it subjective because they have to go by eye, and compare it to a known sample. (Like Peter had to do.)
Andrew Delashaw Yes you can measure it but in this case the customer doesn’t want vertical lines in these bores. The profilometer can’t stroke perpendicular to the round bore. So you have to measure length wise down the bore. This doesn’t pick up the surface finish deviations of vertical hills and valleys. So in these cases it’s left to a visual comparison.
Thanks sir for this useful discussion and information
that cnc grinder is a life saver... :)
Very interesting! To help with reflections when it matters and adjusting the lights doesn't help, with exposure locked, try moving a gray index card around and see if that helps with reflections. Not so convenient, but might be worth trying when it matters.
Thanks Ken I will keep that in mind.
Crazy part your making lately. Hopefully they are worth a pretty penny for all this prototyping!
I'm just a hobbyist with a home workshop but I find Peter's videos so interesting and compelling. What is the application of these parts that they need such a high specification finish?
THANK YOU , PETER.
you'll be making plastic plug gauges so you don't scratch the bore or air gauges,
30 years ago I was honing type 2 titanium medical parts guessing 3/16 bore used 2 different type of Sunnen stones, 1 was cutting stone then a finishing stone.
there is company that makes roller burnishing tool but you so many steps per bore.
I'm very interested in your tooling, change rake angle then have a little land then clearance angle.
if you have bad top chamfer i'd make a roller type chamfer tool.
are you using acrylic bore rods for inspection.
you can use high speed polishing in the bores but those are deep.
thank you very interesting.
I'm spoiled by the 4 μin surface finish I get out of wiper inserts in aluminum. But I guess everyone looks like a hero in aluminum.
When it gets down to 32 and lower finish don't f around just take some 320 grit and smooth it all out!
This dude is one of the baddest machinst out there hands down! U can tell just by the way he posts these instructional videos with ease! Much love cutting edge precision!
Yes I always love he's videos
it would work if you had easy access to those features, but look at the size of some of the cutters, and they are multistepped, you're just bound to bugger up some edges and round off every single corner if you try and do this freehand, and it will show up on the bore scope, and considering the cost of those parts, and equipment available to him (the cnc cutter grinder), it just makes all the sense to solve those issues the way he did it without resorting to hand finishing
Super interesting Peter! :)
thank you. its very useful to me.
Does the tool have to have cutting surfaces the full depth of the hole. To wit, couldn't you have the hole cutting aspect only include the shoulder and a little bit up. This would look like this...
_____
______ | \___________
| \_______|
instead of
__________________
|
_______________|
|
Also, since almost no material is being removed (due to the roughing cuts), couldn't the grooves of the flutes be made very shallow? This would provide greater rigidity to the cutting edge and so perhaps less chatter and smoother finish.
This can work and I have done this on some tools. The only thing is to not relieve the area to much to where shavings can get in between the tool and the bore. This can cause the shavings to mar the finish. But as I said I have done this on some tools as well.
@@EdgePrecision Another thing I've seen is a variable twist that start short and gets longer up the flute. Heh, anything to get rid of harmonic resonance based chatter. Right?
Yes my grinder can grind what is known as variable pitch (The way these tools are) and variable helix. Where the helix changes it's angle along the flutes length. This can start fast and end slow or the reverse. Start slow and end fast. Or you can do both in the same tool. Have a variable pitch and helix. All these are designed to damp vibration as you say.
@@EdgePrecision Awesome!
Thank you for another great in-depth video. I wonder if there is a feasible option of coating your self ground endmills? the coating makes the edge rounded off.. probably would make the lead time for the experiment longer and pricier though... guess thats why you hone them like you mentioned. is it possibly to grind that micro honed edge into the tool? in the grinding machine?
Thanks Slavik Marinovski. There is a place here in town that can do the coatings and I have used them before. The coating would help for a number of reasons. As to grinding/honing the tool on the grinder. This is a older machine and has no cycle for this.
Good evening Peter. I usually don't comment or none of your videos because I don't feel qualified to do so but on this one I find it very interesting and very curious. As far as the Finish goes in the beginning I assume that you are showing different levels of finish. Which appears to me that none of them finishes could possibly seal without some sort of pressure fitting such as a nut and a bolt tighten down extremely tight not knowing what the part does I can only assume that but finish you are worried about are concerned about must seal properly. Once again I don't understand part you're working on but it seems to me that all of the finishers you're showing couldn't possibly seal. Once again Peter thank you for very interesting video
No these are finish standards. At these magnifications everything looks bad. A standard o-ring seal uses a 32 finish. This is what they really look like.
@@EdgePrecision thanks. This is what I thought. I knew the magnification was high
Great video peter, I’m no engineer and was wondering if the helix ran the opposite way for a finishing tool would help to prevent chatter?
It could. It would be something to try. My grinder can grind a tool like this.
Ya made it all the way. Holy turtle wax bat man that thing was ready for sema anfd the customer complained . It would make sense to profile some sort of drill for a hole like that . Even if there where an even bigger geometric conspiracy like a grove with taper's at both ends hog out and next tool done big 4X4 bin I was thinking three flute you went 5 and did'nt even think reamer style flute spacing was on the table next time i play three card monty with ya I'll know more. ha ha cool show
i want to see tool grinding
good lesson bro
Well I'm not a machinist of any type, but I made it through to the end without any thought of skipping it.
As I said, I'm not a machinist, so please forgive me if this is a stupid question.
I was wondering if it would be possible to add a collar of some type to the longer tools in an attempt to increase the mass, and reduce the vibration in that manner?
I belive in this case it would be useless, as there is already a lot of flex in the cutting part of the tool. But im also no expert :)
John you are correct the more mass in the shank would help. Where these long tools are being there isn't room in the bore. Look at the last photos in this video. You can see the actual holes in the part. They are in the bottom of the bores.
@@EdgePrecision thanks Peter.
It did strike after I'd posted the question that there would be a very good reason for you using the geometry of tool you were using when the tooling was custom ground.
However, thank you for humouring me and my question, and I look forward to the follow up to this video.
Is there any provision for electrolysis finishing? Not sure of the proper term, but electrolyte solution, and anode/cathode centered from all walls should remove the peaks equally from all geometry. Not really useful for outer surfaces but blind holes seems to be a good application
I’m not sure having no experience with this.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining
@@TimLF He's talking about electropolishing. EDM is completely different. You could do this with a sinker EDM, but Peter doesn't have a sinker machine.
@@TimLF en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electropolishing?wprov=sfla1
Yeah that's it, electropolishing!
You might want to get yourself a circular polariser. Since you can adjust what its taking out for reflections. It also darkens things some to help bring the detail out for the camera. So the highlights are not washing everything out quite so much.
I have seen this comment from many people. I don't think they understand what is going on here. What you are seeing is what the bore scope is seeing not my camera. there is no way to put a filter on the bore scope. Unless you are talking about the end shots than I agree.
@@EdgePrecision I was talking primarily for the camera not the bore scope. I have yet to try adapating a polariser to a bore scope. But it has been on my mind to try at some point. I have often found the optics on many small devices to be complete poop. So I will often use a reverse lens setup with a bellows. Then take a series of stacked images. I am guessing your in the range of 0.5-0.250 inches, for the entire frame with the scope?
Yes that's about right. The scope itself is only about .150" in diameter. So the lens on the end is even smaller than that.
@@EdgePrecision Maybe its time to invest in this? www.novacam.com/products/boreinspect-for-3d-bore-metrology/
Pete . What do you think about a Carbide Shank and your forming tool brazed on the end . Try semi - chrome to lap the edge's of the forming reamer .🐤🔔
Hey Peter, thx, great info as always! Did you try a schunk tendo/walter hydraulic tool holder? Its good at killing vibrations on long tools.
looks just like a rifle chamber reamer, I use 85rpm and clean the flutes every .100" and use heavy cutting oil .
Can’t use cutting oil. Can’t run this machine with the doors open. But the high pressure coolant works fine. The short tools work fine. It’s the long tools that give problems.
maybe try a ring of lead pressed on the shank and a rubber donut/hose piece over that to make a dampener. I use a chuck of lead on long parts in the lathe and on brake rotors to remove the ringing chatter
What you're calling scratches from the gauges, that's really just burnishing, yes? i.e., it isn't raising a burr, just flattening the surface asperities, and the mark is just how it looks with the surface texture from cutting slightly smoothed over?
Interesting . Cheers .
Of course 3 we watched till the end!
please do this, indicate the taper spindle bore on machine, if r/o is more then .0002 cut spindle speed down. you will be surprised how the taper tool holders don't fit perfectly to spindle , run a blueing test see if it has 100% contact
This machine has a Capto taper on the milling spindle. First it cant be indicated as you say. Its not round. The Capto tool also makes a face contact with the spindle face. I have tested this spindle with a Capto test bar and it runs true. But you are correct run out is a factor and I have taken it in to consideration.
Awesome
Another superb video Peter. Sorry but at 23:25, who was waiting for the “Focus you F****”?
Yes there was a very small depth of field the way I took these clips and the lens I used. I didn't notice until I was editing the video. I hope it wasn't to distracting sorry.
Is there a way for you to make a burnishing tool for this specific application? I was thinkin about a study that was done a little way back I remember reading about the "unwinding" the flutes of a tool experience during rotation, it was oddly disproportionate to the shear plane of the material. It concluded with the notion that lead to 6 and 8 flute tools with really shallow flute depth.
Could you ream the smallest hole and then put I pilot on the end of the bit that will support the tool at the end? You could still drill out to just under the next size up and have the pilot be used just at the end .250" or hover long the pilot is. If not please explain so I can learn. 😁
That sounds like it could work, particularly to support that chamfering tool at the bottom of the hole
I never get great finish with carbide reamers , if you can use hss as a finisher
mind blowing attention to detail the sad part is the surface finish spec is probably really not needed for it to function. as im sure your aware there whats on the print and what actually works in the real world
Yes but there is a inspector at the customer who has to pass it. And he has to be satisfied.
@@EdgePrecision ohhhhh one of those yeah im sorry ive dealt with those type before had one that really stuck with me for years about being .0002 over on a bushing bore now this a is a 4 inch i.d bushing mind you, hes chewing me out i see the guy whos installing the bushings heat this part up with a rosebud and grabs a bushing from a cooler of dry ice drops it into the bore and drives it home with a driver tool and a 5lbs sledge hammer. after i told the q.a where to stick his report and showed him how the bushings were installed he never spoke to me again.
Dummy question - why the vertical lines when its a turning operation?
If you are referring to the holes the vertical lines are caused by the tool chattering or vibration as it feeds into the hole. This isn't a turning operation but for the finish standard its finish could be considered similar because of the way the tool feeds constantly in and cuts with its tip like a turning tool would.
What about buying burnishing tools? Would that work?
curious to see how this would work - hope peter answers your question.
I have never run a burnishing tool in titanium. It may work but the problem is there are minim corner radius specified and a burnish tool needs to big a radius. In a few of these holes. And than there are the chamfers. How would that be done? With another burnishing tool? That might throw a burr into the hole. The chamfer is for a o-ring to enter. But I don’t know it may be possible.
@@EdgePrecision i only know about burnishing tools bc of watching john grimsmo and he had a few tools specially made so maybe something to look into?
@@EdgePrecision I would contact Cogsdill and see what they say. If a burnishing tool could be made to work it would sure give the best results with the least amount of time.
@@EdgePrecision Wouldn't a burnishing tool in this case just be a finish tool that instead of having a cutting edge has the cutting edge and relief ground as a smooth curve? You would still have all of the steps and chamfers as part of the tool geometry, so I don't see it rounding corners on the chamfers. I imagine you could even do a tool that had almost no flutes and was basically a plug gauge, but the whole surface was done as a series of say 7 or 9 waves, varying in diameter by a few thousandths over 20 degrees or so. I'd obviously be concerned or downright worried about surface heating and possible friction welding to the tool, but a light touch for a second or two on a hole that was already to (or almost to) size might be safe. Through-tool coolant to the tip and flowing back along the tool might help.
To avoid the brightness of the glossy surfaces, mount a polarized filter on the lens.
Yes you are correct I should have done this. I don't have on that fits my 100 mm macro lens.
@@EdgePrecision Peter It costs few bucks but for you it would be very useful. Also, since you photograph still objects, it is useless to use the flash, which can cause annoying reflections. Use a tripod and ambient light with very slow shutter speeds and f8 or f11 aperture. You have a digital camera so you don't have to worry about wasting film. Some corrections (exposure and colour temperature) can be made later in post production.
Interesting
Now I am very curious indeed to find out if you could use an eddy current instrument and a *very* high frequency probe to measure that roughness without making contact...
If I even knew what that is I could comment.
@@EdgePrecision It's a non-destructive inspection instrument; basically the item is used as the secondary in a transformer. One thing it can measure is the distance from the probe to the part (easily in thousandths and perhaps in finer resolution) and perhaps it could be extended to surface roughness. Just an idle thought.
Ha, your tool looks way way better
glad to see you're OK...was worried about ya, down there in democracy land....what about rheeming to size?..
Thanks vizibug. Actually the USA isn't a Democracy it's a Republic. But I get your point. I am using a reamer on some holes in these parts. But these stepped hole have certain angles, radius and steps that would require the reamers to be modified anyway and many more tools to do these holes. Also in effect these tools are custom reamers.
I'm 20 sec in and already I like it!
Great! How do I give it more than one like? 😀
Why does the irregular flute spacing result in a better finish?
If there was no vibration/runout than it wouldn't matter. But there is always vibration or runout in a tool. Even more so on long overhang tools. The theory behind it is not that it gives a better finish but that it would reduce the possibility of vibration or harmonics (which would ruin the finish) . This could be caused by flutes of equal spacing landing in the same marks/valleys that the previous flutes at the same time. Have you ever drilled a hole in something but the hole wasn't round? This is what happens to a exaggerated scale. Or maybe a better analogy could be. If you drive your car over a speed bump square it is much more severe that at a angle where two wheels aren't contacting the bump at the same time. I hope that makes some kind of sense. Its a little hard to explain in a comment.
Would not coolant ? Work with good finishes? Maybe A Through coolant form tool would work ? Would it ? I don't know ? But I would have tried that
Yes coolant is good. But in this case there was a very fine chatter/marks left by the tool due to some form of vibration. It really couldn't be seen without magnification. Even though the finish was in tolerance the customer would not buy it.
@@EdgePrecision Were you able to achieve what you planned ? Anyways Awesome videos as ever , thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise 🌸🌸🌸🌸🌸
Yes I got it good enough. Nothing is ever perfect but it seems everyone is satisfied. Thanks!
What make is that borescope?
When I get back to the shop I will give you the exact information. I don’t know off the top of my head.
Thank you for the video!
Would you happen to remember where you purchased that surface finish gauge? I'd like to pick one up for myself.
I bought it from Bass tool. Tomorrow when I get to the shop I will give you more detailed information.
@@EdgePrecision Thanks for the quick response. I've found the item on Bass tool! www.basstool.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailStyles&item=8-722-100
@@agg42 you can get it from mcmaster www.mcmaster.com/surface-finish-gauges
The McMaster one is a little less by two dollars. I would go for the one like I showed. It has actual separate specimens about 1/4" thick. I have seen other ones that are one piece like sheet metal with areas of different finish they aren't as good.
What if you made your finishing tool with 6-8 flutes, would this help with vibration? Because the flutes would be more shallow, therefore making the tool more rigid and reducing the vibration.
I think a odd number of flutes work better say 5,7,9. I think the long tool overhang is more the problem. Also the more the flutes on a stepped tool like this it becomes hard to grind the relief angles without hitting the other flutes with the grinding wheel. You need to keep reducing the diameter of the wheel. I don’t have any small enough in diameter to do it.
Are some of these changes you made to the cutting tools just because of the material? Or do you think these changes you made would work for other materials also? Charles
They could. It always has to be tested on expensive parts. But in principal they should.
@@EdgePrecision Thank you for your reply, we do sometimes get a bit lazy and just accept tooling as it comes. Nice for you to detail the changes you made and why. I will keep these in mind next time I look at having custom tooling made. Charles
Peter, when you make a tool on your grinder do you make the tool right to size or do you make them a little bigger or smaller?
I grind them to the size I need. I’m not sure I understand your question. If you are referring to a standard size. Let’s say 1/2” or .500”. A standard centerless ground .500 blank will really be .4997-.4998” in diameter. So really all .500” diameter endmills will really be .499-.4995” in diameter at the closest. Is that what you mean. In that case standard sizes will always slightly under. Thanks for the comment.
Edge Precision I’m sorry I didn’t get that out in a way that someone would understand! What I meant was, do the tools you make always cut right to size or do you have to adjust the size of the tool to cut what size you want? I know you machine a lot of titanium and I was just curious if your tools cut right to size
Are you using a high grade cutting oil? Not just coolant.
There is no way to use cutting oil in this machine. So it’s coolant. I do run my coolant at higher concentration than usual.