The thing about the battle of five armies is that they multiply the scale of the battle by like 10X. Rather than like 6000 Orcs there are now like 60k and there were definitely more than 500 dwarves in Ironfoots army
To be honest, when it comes to Hollywood, they tend to care less about facts and more about what looks cool. To make matters worse, Peter was not the original director behind the films and when he did get pulled in (near last minute at that), he didn't have the same time and prep he did with Lord of the Rings. All in all, the movies were quite lacking in what I expected, and a lot of it was done more for show and entertainment then to be true to the story. It frustrates me, but at the end of the day, I give Peter the pass on this one and move on. Fingers Crossed Amamzon pulls off a good and reliable series when it comes out. Speaking of...i wonder if there have been any news updates regarding it...
@@christopherpoet458 Well for the moment it's on hold due to Covid-19 as they were doing the filming in NZ and it's on strict lockdown. Other than that there's no significant news. Probably polishing what they've made so far before getting back to filming again when restictions are lifted.
Egonieser Locman if we are talking about the new series that’s coming out I heard that the guy who was there to make sure that they didn’t change up all the lore walked off the job so that might not be a good sign.
Yeah reclaim Moria,Probably the Grey Mountains , Colonize the Glittering Caves and still have settlements in the Blue mountains ,Red Mountains and In Erebor and the Iron Hills so still a decent chunk of Dwarves
It's interesting how the two races that can live for extremely long periods of time were the ones that had so few troops to offer their service to against the orcs, which may or may not have had hundreds of thousands of troops ready to fight. Though since the dwarves dealt with mass losses and weren't able to repopulate as quickly it does make sense why the number of troops that would ally with the free people wouldn't be so high, much like the elves who did help but the men of Gondor and Rohan had to handle majority of the fighting.
That image of elves jumping over a dwarven spear line is just amazing that it actually hurts my stomach. I love how it just completely destroys the purpose of having a spear line at all. My guess is that they were trying to see who gets the most kills and the elves just jumped right in
Jackson makes good LOTR movies, but sometimes he just doesn't care lol especially in the Hobbit movies. For example, in Dol Guldur when Thrain is grabbed by Sauron's shadow cloud he does the Wilhelm scream 😱
that's what I noticed about the Battle of Fives armies as well. It looked like more dwarves kept showing up. When Thorin is talking to Dain, the Dwarves in the background are far to numerous and even had large banners not shown previously. Figured there some deleted scene with more of Dain's kin showing up to the battle and that's who those dwarves were.
I think i read somewhere that after the battle of the five armies dwarves from all the seven clans repopulated erebor and made it the strongest dwarven realm once more. Not sure if thats canon, but if it is that that might have given the dwarfes of erebor a huge population boost. Another thing is in the same way the other clans participated in the war of the dwarves and orcs, i think the clans could have participated in the battle against the easterlings, i dont think this is canon but it does seem plausible, and also would justify a much bigger army.
Well, reinforcements kept trickling in from the Ironhills during the Battle of Five armies, stragglers and malingerers and those with the shortest legs. Dwarves are natural sprinters, after all. They're wasted on cross country. I think your guesses are as good as any, though in the Battle of Dale there were certain to be thousands more who came from the Blue Mountains so I would guess by the time of Bard's grandson there were closer to 6-8000 Dwarves at full mustard, though they would always be striving to ketchup.
Dáin Ironfoot would have been in a real _pickle_ during the War of the Ring if he only had 500 soldiers, even though they were _seasoned_ warriors that could _pepper_ the Easterlings with arrows from behind their fortifications.
I've seen in a real TV documentary that for around a hundred years Medieval Venice had a monopoly on artisanal shiny things. They had such monopoly because they had a guild of Dwarfs and short small peoples that would go all over Europe to gather minerals, metals, gems and such. They had the phrygian caps like in Snow White. They had glyphs no one else could understand, they left them all over Europe. They say they were as good if not better than we are now at finding precious things. They could even know what minerals was in a mountain from the taste of the water going through said mountains. Then after a hundred years. The rest of Europe finally understood the values of such things so it became the industry we know today. So Venice lost it's monopoly and the guild lost it's purpose so they just disappeared from History and became legends or myths. Some German old guy still had a story about one of his ancestor having one of those dwarfs living at their house for a while. Said he was very nice and friendly. He just needed a place to live while he was gathering stuff around lol. The idea of dwarfs and short guys seem to be both about being discreet and about the fact the smaller you are the less you have to dig big tunnels.
Are you aware (per a BBC radio interview that can be found on RUclips) that Tolkien based the Dwarves not only on Norse mythology, but also on the Ashkenazim?
@@tominiowa2513 Nah I didn't knew that. I appreciate the information. Yet my comment wasn't about what influenced Tolkien but about a very real origin of the legend of Dwarve. I don't know if Tolkien knew about that. My comment was more an information for peoples interested in the idea or legend of the dwarve.
I know this is coming a little late, but I believe we have som figures for the Dwarves at Azanulbizar; 6-10,000 I believe (3,000 of those being Durin’s Folk.)
So true the dwarfs were doing fine in the first and second age while the elves and men were constantly fighting the men were collapsing in the second age and the elves were at there peak and begun to decline and the third age was bad for everyone the men’s collapse was in free fall the elves started to leave on mass to the valar and like you said the dwarves were very unlucky also I am kinda sad that we never got to see the three races at there peak 😢
Darth gandalf do you play third age? Divide and conquer? I love this mods for medieval tw. Do you play mount and blade? There is a mod of lotr as well. It's awesome
I was actually a writer on the Divide and Conquer original team about almost ten years ago. Enedwaith was my main focus, and the goal was to have the ability to reforge Cardolan as Enedwaith if you chose the good path. That never made it in, but Arachir and his new team have done a fantastic job. I really enjoyed Ar-Adunaim especially. My other claim to fame is that I wrote the Orcs of Gundabad description in base TATW. Looking back on it now, 14/15 year old me was not as good as a writer as he thought he was. As for Mount and Blade, I'm assuming you're talking about The Last Days? I played it, but never really got into it. Really well-made mod, but I never have the patience for M&B anymore.
Numbers are lower than I expected (was expecting 4k to be the minimum). The easterlings should've been able to walk all over such a small amount of resistance. Though Erebor seems a very hard place to attack into and I have no idea how strong the Mirkwood elves are. Great video.
There's also Dale, and they're fighting a defensive battle. On top of that the easterlings had substantial forces on the Gondor front (or that's the impression I got from the book at least), so I'm inclined to think that the easterling forces weren't that formidable either.
I doubt it was the entire Easterling force as some would have been in Gondor. IIRC the dwarf/dale defenses/offenses were going well for them but they'd been occupied for years even prior to the fellowship. Mordor's attacks then ramped up to prevent aid from arriving in Gondor but not necessarily to obliterate their home yet.
@@josephtolsma6896 in the books the men of Dale withdrew into the Fortress of Erebor and sallied forth when the orcs and easterlings quailed when Sauron was overthrown. Dain Ironfoot fell standing over the body of Brand ,son of Bard at the great age of 256 years with a mound of fallen enemies at his feet. Baruk Kahzad!🪓
Honestly 5,000 seems like a great number but if you think that they would still have to have a Garrison of the iron hills too they would have to feel more because like you said $2,000 at the lonely mountain would be impossible they would have been crushed and so I would think 5,000 at the lonely mountain and then maybe another 2-3,000 at the iron hills enough of a force to wear Sauron would have had trouble in the iron hills as well instead of just abandoning that settlement
My biggest question about the Dwarves is what they do for food. Sure, there may be a lot of trade, but an army of 5,000 implies an overall population in the tens of thousands... too much to be provided just by trading with men. The same goes for Moria in its prime. You should do a video about it!
There's not really enough information to do a video about that. But if I had to guess - they probably have pastures either around or on the slopes of Erebor where they can grow food for themselves. They'd probably also trade extensively with the Men of Dale, considering they have no shortage of wealth and the Men of Dale have plenty of space. Moria is a bit tougher considering we know the Dwarves didn't have farms outside of the city and likely didn't have pastures in the Misty Mountains. Outside the box thinking would have me suggest that they kept animal pastures underground and mainly fed them off of things like mushrooms or other plants that managed to survive underground.
hil03 the glittering caves it’s a colony of dwarves lead by Gimli after the war of the ring and establish a hold near or under helms deep. I prob have some of that wrong but I feel like I remembered most of it correctly
We know that almost all the major mountain ranges had some populaton of dwarf after many "scattered" additionally likely some existed regardless prior to the scattering. So I would say the mountains of Gondor, Blue Mountains, Grey, Iron, and Misty all had some population of Dwarf, but as to population your guess is as good as mine. We also know FAR east of middle earth had dwarves so the far south likely would also.
I like your videos, as for a number I would think the dwarven army to be closer to 7000 than 5000 since I think that even with the men of Dale I find it difficult for them to have been able to loose a battle and take casualties and later be able to sally out and fight again shortly after said loss, especially since I think that there would have been injured dwarves that managed to either pull back or were taken back by their fellow dwarves during the battle and I don’t think many of them would have been able to go back into the fight after a such a bloody battle as is described by Tolkien where not one but two kings were killed. So I believe that there should have been 7000 dwarves in the battle of dale and maybe a little more along with a few thousand of the men of Dale since they seem to be stronger than even the new Kingdom of Dale.
If you are talking about numbers in the battle for Erebor in the Ringwar, you have to add the numbers of the fighters of Dale too, cause they fought together the Easterlings! That army must have been around the same sice too, if you count settlements on the river Celduin, Lake-town and Dale!
I think that 6,500-7,000 is a good solid number which would allow the dwarves to take losses and still be able to fight a battle and win and come out with enough troops to defend their lands
Don't forget tolkien talked about the far east where dwarves could be found, but had lost contact with Iron hills and likely white mountains to the south.
One possibility to boost the dwarf population is intermarriage. For instance, that possibility was suggested in the Hobbit movies, and we saw in The Lord of The Rings that intermarriage between humans and elves was possible. These intermarriages of races could be more prevalent after the War of the Ring. The high causalities all races suffered reduced the possibilities for marriage, making reunions between the races more likely.
the 500 soldiers dain cobbled together for the battle of the 5 armies was likely just standing garrison, its not unreasonable for a city garrison to be mobilized and deployed in an offensive manner in times of need and i mean.... how many dwarves does it take to defend a dwarven city? its built into a mountain with usually one entrance and maybe a secret escape hatch. Also, its likely the dwarven army was at least 10k during Lotr simply because of migration from the blue mountains and it is likely dain would have had prior warning of an attack happening and called reinforcements form the iron hills.
Theres 2 points you didnt mention that could play a factor the war of the dwarves and orcs wasnt just durins folk but a coalition of the dwarven houses although they definitely took heavy losses and the second point is gimli uses the term legion when he says he wished he could summon a legion of dwarves to march to the aide or Gondor along with the Rohirrim. If we take the Roman term legion for its size a legion had between 4,000 and 6,000 soldiers. Not saying how many legions the dwarves could feild but i dont think gimli wouldve suggested having a legion to march to war with unless they were capable of doing that still without leaving their lands defenseless which leads me to speaculate they had at least 2 maybe 3 legions at least if not more and if we are comparing them to the ancient romans who had auxiliary units to accompany them and fight like cav, archers etc. Maybe the dwarves also had that.
I personally think the number of dwarves based off the parallels of the roman legions which at its height rome had 28 legions around half a million men alone in that regard nit counting the auxiliary troops they had with em the dwarves very well even with sustaining huge casualties like that could still feild a significant force and lets not forget at the end of the war of the ring the dwarves started to spread out and make new colonies gimli settling in helms deep for the glittering caves and a generation or 2 after the war of the ring there was durin the 7th that reclaimed moria to spread out and reclaim what they had lost and gain new colonies would have to have a pretty good sized population to support the colonies.
Yep, you're right about a coalition of Dwarven houses helping Durin's Folk, but these coalitions go home after the war is over. And as for colonies, they could, in theory, only number in the hundreds. Balin's attempt to retake Moria seemed to number in the hundreds at most. Gimli's colony in the Glittering Caves could've very well numbered the same.
@@jacobhoward673 At their highest number there was more than 60 roman legions at arms. In time of Constantine I, the number is 64-67 legions. We have identified around 50 different legions. Some of the legions were of course dispersed and replaced by others. But legions in late roman empire were often severely undermanned, units of soldiers were also tactically divided into smaller numbers. Army of Constantine I is estimated to be 645,000 men strong.
@@jacobhoward673 At their highest number there was more than 60 roman legions at arms. In time of Constantine I, the number is 64-67 legions. We have identified around 50 different legions. Some of the legions were of course dispersed and replaced by others. But legions in late roman empire were often severely undermanned, units of soldiers were also tactically divided into smaller numbers. Army of Constantine I is estimated to be 645,000 men strong. Edit: the number 645,000 was probably only on paper and the real number was much smaller.
Was the 500 number actually mentioned in the movie? I don't remember. I do remember thinking that the dwarf army looked like it was way over the 500 that were supposed to be there. Getting meta, it is possible that the number was inaccurate. It was supposed to be Bilbo who was the author of the story. Being someone with no wartime experience, he could very easily have just picked a number that sounded big to him, but not as big as the goblin army.
I think 5 thousand to 6 thousand is fair number for Erebor and the Iron Hills, including the Grey Mountains. Do we know if the other 4 dwarven tribes in the east fought against the Easterlings and Sauron? I must assume that they were not nearly as numerous as the Broadbeams, Firebeams, or the Long Beards. However, due to not having a decline that is known of compared to the Longbeards. I would assume the other 4 clans are slightly larger, or similar size as the current Longbeards in the regions of Erebor, Iron Hills, and etc. I am going to guess the Blue Mountains though have the most Dwarves. Which would primarily be Broadbeams, and Firebeams, with a great amount of Longbeards there as well.
We get mixed messages about the eastern Dwarves. We know that at least during some points of history, some of them actually fought for the Shadow. The Edain crossed the path of "evil-minded" Dwarves when they came west during the First Age, and during the War of the Last Alliance it's mentioned that some Dwarves fought on Sauron's side. But we know they fought alongside the Longbeards during the War of Dwarves and Orcs, and that they definitely had conflict with Dragons at some point (four of the Dwarven Rings being consumed by fire). The other three Dwarven Rings were retrieved by Sauron, one being the Longbeards', meaning the two other Rings could've possibly belonged to the eastern clans. If I had to make a guess - it seems the eastern Dwarves likely did their own thing, but unlike the Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams, some of them did fight for Sauron at certain points. It's possible that by the Third Age, they'd broken free of his influence, or perhaps the "evil Dwarves" were such a small minority that they were irrelevant.
In the Peter Jackson movie, the battle of 5 armies had waaaaaaaaay more soldiers for all combatants. the silvan elves had at least 10,000 the dwarves had at least 7,000 the men of laketown had over 4,000 plus the civilians and the orcs had well over 50,000 total monsters so if it looks like there are more dwarves there than there should be, that is why. Heres the link if you want to check it out for yourself, just scroll down to ''portrayal in adaptations'' lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Five_Armies
First love the video good work. Though I'm not sure on the 5,000 being right i think its close though and it does make sense, i think it would be better as a 7000 force which is slightly larger than Rohan at Pelennor Fields mostly because of the sally out after being battered over three days i just feel it fits more after having looked at real life battles, just a personal opinion though. Also i like the logic on the 500 for Five Armies, if this is quick responce force or QRF by Dane then 500 veterans would be logical as they are dependable and battle hardened so he could rely on them if it came to hammertime and they would still be a deadly force and able to move quickly (Relatively).
One thing to consider too is that Tolkien occasionally gives "unit conversions" for the strengths of different peoples. For example, iirc, he states that should even 1 Elf (I believe of the First Age) die after killing 500 goblins in a battle, it would still be considered an enormously tragic, unlucky event. I am a bit more shaky on this, but I am pretty sure he also goes on to imply through similar sort of statements that elves were the "most powerful" when it came to combat (meaning 1 elf was the match for at least 500 goblins), Dwarves came next, and then men (who were still not a 1-to-1 with goblins, but would maybe closer to a 10-to-1). Anyway, take it with a grain of salt, as it's been a while since I've read that passage (and don't remember if it was in the Trilogy, Silmarillion, or maybe something like The Children of Hurin or something), but I AM confident that he gave the "conversion" for elves-to-goblins in terms of combat power... and I'm reasonably confident it was 500 but yeah. Food for thought.
That 500:1 ratio would almost certainly be for the most powerful elven warriors who had lived in Valinor during the Years of the Trees. By the time of the War of the Ring, the population of such elves in Middle Earth was approximately one (Glorfindel).
Thandurils army only consisted Avari elves who were the less powerful elven kind. They were agile and good archers but less effective in open battle and had poor quality equipment compared to Noldoli. Excellent for forest battles and ambushes but bad for field battles because ran out fast from arrows than taken heavy casualty in melee combat. Dwarfs had very high quality, very heavy weapons and armors with extreme stamina reserve so they represented a much higher battle potential on the field in my opinion.
Dwarves architecture is absolutely stunnning.so is the elves and the shire.evey place was beatiful.id love to live in the shire thoigh such chill lives smoking pot all day drinking and eating.even minus mogul is morbidly wonderful.one thing jackson did to perfection was the environments the world itself was the biggest character straight from the books.it was wasnt unbelievable like most fantasy films it actually feels as though mid earth is real.
They're the Veteran Dwarven Soldiers of the battle of the Dwarves and Orcs ( Azalnulbizar ) so Basically they're super experienced and heavily armoured.
I don't mind The Hobbit films as much, now that I know what to expect, but how accurate was film Balin to book Balin? Because he really didn't seem like the type to go leading an expedition to Moria, as he later does, apart from maybe just to get away from Dane.. Also why did The Erebor Dwarves go all the way to Ered Luin instead of just The Iron Hills? Since they were so much closer Been a few years now since I read the books
Book Balin often acts as second-in-command to Thorin, and had a habit of acting as a sentry for the other Dwarves. So he's no stranger to leadership, and he clearly didn't mind taking the riskier roles. So him leading an expedition to Moria certainly isn't out of character. As for your second question, I'm not entirely sure. I don't think there is a canon answer. The only thing I can offer is that they desired more wealth, and perhaps they knew the Iron Hills wasn't rich enough to offer them that.
#Dwarves best race! super cool! thanks for your hard work!!!! do you think the dwarves died out post-war of the ring or prospered and flourished in the newfound peace??
They definitely flourished for a time, especially after retaking Khazad-dum, but Tolkien's writings make it pretty clear that they eventually died out. Possibly late in the Fourth Age or even in the ages beyond. Kind of a morbid ending.
On the Lotr wiki, it says that «30,000 longbeards and 20,000 Men of Dale held the mountain in a similar siege [ref. Battle of the Pelennor fields] against 200,000 Men og Rhun who had taken all of Brand’s lands, leaving only his capital city of Dale» I believe the dwarven army to be much bigger than even your biggest estimate.
Didn’t Tolkien “described” the numbers during the War of Dwarves and Orcs? It’s said that the estimated number would be around 6,000-10,000 strong but Durin’s Folk alone can only muster about 1-3,000 due to the population declining. During the Battle of Azanulbizar, we are told that the Dwarven army at that point was at half strength and tired after years of fighting. But in my opinion, their is no way the dwarven army was about 2-10,000 strong during the Battle of Dale. No way the Dale’s forces would be able to last 3 days of constant fighting. So I do assume that the Dwarven Army during the War of the Ring (War in the North) would be a large number
Unfortuately, Tolkien never gives a number for the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. The only things we know for sure in regards to numbers is that the Orcs were almost completely wiped out and that the Dwarves took heavy casualties, including half in the last battle.
Ok I saw the video.To be honest I consider myself a die hard fan of huge armies and battles.So 5000 seems very very little.Even 10000 is not a lot.And I have reasons for that.First as you said 500 dwarves that came from Dale is surely a small portion of the Dwarves of the Iron Hills.I guess Dain had only a day or so to prepare them.So that means only dwarves who lived near Dain's halls could prepare.Next we have the info that those 500 dwarves were almost all veterans of Azanulbizar.Also I think Dain's son(50 or 60 at the battle of the five armies) was not in the battle.So most surely he was left home to protect the Iron hills,along with many other dwarves(who also lived near Dain's halls.It's just like in the books when Aragorn left way more defenders at Minas Tirith than before the siege of Gondor started.So I'll say that Dain left 300 dwarves under his son.A very reasonable number,and maybe very small.But we have other dwarves in the Iron Hills.So I can put the Dwarves that were capable of fighting at probably 1500.Again a VERY reasonable number.But we also have tue Blue Mountains,where most of the refugees from Erebor went with Thrain.Let's assume that when Thorin started his mission to reclaim Erebor,there were more dwarves there.So I'll put the dwarves that are capable of fighting at 3000(because dwarves had lived there before Thorin came.I'll leave out The Grey Mountains because they may have been a very insignificant number there(probably 200 or so).After the battle most of the dwarves who lived in the Blue Mountains returned to Erebor(Why wouldn't they???)So after that we have 77 years of peace and a lot of prosperity for the Dwarves.Give or take the dwarves lost 300 of their people at the battle.So at the start of 1942 we have 4400 fighting dwarves(if we include the grey mountains,which I doubt)Let's say that around 1000 dwarves had died from old age from the time of the Hobbit to Lord of the Rings.77 years without plagues,wars or famine.PURE prosperity(Gloin himself said that dwarves became more prosperous than before Smaug took Erebor).Let's say that there are about 1500 dwarven women at the start of the Hobbit(1/3 ratio).We kinda have a hint of what is the average birth rate for dwarves.1 dwarven female and 2 dwarven males for every dwarven woman.Thorin had a sister and another brother.So we can assume that at least 3000 other dwarves were born.And 77 years means that another generation means 2 more generations at the most.Also more dwarves means more chance for fertility.So I'll be very conservative and say that exept for 3400 dwarves that were alive,another 7000 were born between this time.So more than 10000 dwarves capable of fighting.But I personally believe that were more than 20000 thousand.
@@realworldforum there were 7 clans of dwarves the durins folk the two which lived in nogrod and belegost and four others who lived in orocarni ,the red mountains
I suspect the dwarves were the strongest due to a quality advantage. The dwarves are not only excellent craftsmen and naturally hardy but given how much they had lost to the Orcs in centuries past & their recent recovery they probably devoted a good part of their extended lifespans to training for warfare. The Dale-men are not exactly a martial people, the Vale men are decentralized, the Woodland Realm has a greater lifespan advantage than the dwarves but lack the smithcraft of dwarves and Noldor, and also have less of a revanchist drive to train beyond the "ambush any Orc that dares wander into the home forest" level. Does "Strongest in the North" include Galadriel's realm?
jeffhreid well dwarves most likely use crossbows, since it’s more powerful than a bow. Dwarves might lack mobility their endurance and strength makes up for their lack of mobility. Heavy armored Dwarves all the way :3
Tolkien write about the numbers of the dwarves in the war of the orcs and dwarves. 15 000 or 7000 dwarves, I'm not sure, but its one of the two numbers that answer the call of thrain to go to war
Personally I think these number are low. On the scale of battle we’re talking about in the north at the end of LOTR I think 5,000 would be pushing it as the low number. That’s not including any force coming from the iron hills, where, as far as we know the dwarves lived in peace for many years. 70-80 year just from the time of the Hobbit. If you add the people of Dale to the battle how many of them would be needed to withstand the force of Easterlings? I would say they had to have been less than the dwarves because they were a much smaller number to start with and Dain brought dwarves from the iron hills when he became king. So I’m thinking no more than 3,000 men tops unless many more men had moved to Dale from other parts. That would bring the total number of dwarves and men to little over 8,000. If I remember correctly at the Battle of Helm’s Deep there were not more than 2,000 men against 10,000+ orcs and men and they only won because of the Horns. I think the Easterling army would have been bigger than that so the dwarves and mens army would have had to have been bigger. 8,000 seems like a much more realistic number, but again that is not including dwarves from the Iron Hills. Also consider Theoden mustered 10,000 speaks to send to Gondor in a hurry and left an army in Rohan to defend it. The Dwarves are not so scattered so 5,000 as a low number seems realistic to me. But again it’s all speculation. Haha great video DG. 🍻 Keep them coming.
Hard to know. If we're just talking about Durin's Folk, then possibly in the range of 20-30,000. I'd say they would've hit that peak sometime during the first half of the Second Age. Their numbers slowly dwindled after that.
There strenght wasnt in numbers it was in brute strength and there lust for battle.they were stronger then men with the most durable and strongest armour and weapons from there skill of being smiths
@@Dadecorban Don't discount Khazad Dum (or even Gundabad) in the first age either, seeing as those were the two largest and most important dwarfen cities and they had around 3000 years to build up before Morgoth even came back.
@@MajinOthinus There is not a single mention in all of the lore to suggest that Gundabad ever hosted a permanent Dwarven settlement. The power of Khazad Dum actually can be discounted since it took absolutely no part in the First Age affairs of lore, and doesn't survive to the War of the Ring. There's actually no reason to mention it. Whatever power it had, which was surely greater than the mansions of the Ered Luin, is entirely irrelevant.
I do not agree with your analysis. During Battle of Dale, nearly 200000 Easterlings had seiged Erebor. With 2000 or even just 10000 dwarves, it would be impossible to take on such a large force. Also in Erebor dwarves from two Kingdoms were present- Erebor and Iron Hills. What happened in Battle of Five Armies was actually battle between just the scouting parties of Dwarves and Elves.
I agree. 200k of any force would easily destroy the opposing army in this universe. But they did have the Men of Dale as well + Iron Hills. I'm thinking 50k dwarves makes sense
Just to share: I can't get excited about dwarves. I declare myself as a beard-o-phobe, which is their first big strike for me. But all their descriptions and depictions: charaacter, attitude, lifestyle, behaviour, etc, do nothing to endear them to me. The best thing I heard about dwaves was on this channel, that they pick up languages quickly. That's nice. Although they don't come across as quick-witted, to me.
You should have called it Dwarven Age of Darkness. Or DAD for short. The daddy issues time, if you will, as their lack of Homeland, plus the lack of proper King in s way into Thorin returned, leaves them fatherless in a way
Short answer - They prosper for a time and eventually take back Moria under a future king, Durin VII. However, mostly due to low birthrates, the Dwarves eventually die out sometime in the Fourth Age or beyond.
@Darth Gandalf jeez the 4th age sucked for everyone besides the men I never enjoy hearing about the 4th age because my 2 favorite races the elves and dwarfs decline
@@MrHistory269 I'm pretty sure the history that most RUclipsrs bring up for the 4th age was a scrapped concept.So I guess it's more so up to our minds.
I would like to state that dwarves are fierce warriors, 1 dwarf probably equals to 5 to 10 orcs and 3 to 5 humans, they are sturdy as hell, look at gmili! so even with low numbers, they pack a punch
All of the history of the legendarium shows Saurons strategy was to scatter and destroy the dwarves who were most resistant to his powers being the creation of Saurons original master Aule. Hence the Balrog, the war of dwarves and orcs and the depredations of Smaug.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that Sauron and had any knowledge of each other. Also, it's clear from the appendices that Smaug was merely acting from simple dragon greed. It's true that Gandalf feared that Sauron could make devastating use of Smaug but that was for the future as at the time of the battle of 5 armies Sauron was making his way back to Mordor.
@@mikegagne3263 at the very least Smaug would have taken advantage of the turmoil. And being in possession of a palantir Sauron would have been very aware of Smaug’s presence especially as Dol Guldur was relatively near the Lonely Mountain. Driving the dwarves from their stronghold there was likely an early move in a long game!
@@simonmorris4226 sorry my bad. Should have better proof read my answer I wanted to say that Sauron and the Balrog had no knowledge or relationship with each other. As for Sauron and Smaug, the timeline us wrong for the time of The. Hobbit. By the time Sauron has possession of the palantir in Mordor, Smaug is dead, so a moot point.
@@mikegagne3263 Sauron had possession of the Ithil stone ever since it was captured in the fall of Minas Ithil. This was many centuries before the times of the Hobbit. And as Tolkien states he would not pass any object of such power into the hands of a subordinate!
@@simonmorris4226 citation please He does say that about the ring of power, although it wouldn't matter. Being slaves to the ring, Tolkien tells us that if they found the ring the nazgul would immediately bring it to him. Hence the embassy to the Lonely Mountain, hence the hunt to the Shire. Was the palantir at Dol Guldur? Maybe, but nowhere is that stated in the legendarium. Please note that Tolkien does the palantiri had to be adjusted to see in a particular direction. Possible? Sure. Likely? I'm not so sure. At that time he was planning an exit to Mordor and had been busy trying to finishing up the business of rebuilding his strength.
The thing is that Dwarves are as strong as humans maybe Even stronger and means the can have really heavy weapons and big shields wich can give them better chances and they live in a mountain an Get their own material
I kind of find it hard to believe that they only fielded 5,000 Dwarves i would believe that dwarves from the blue mountains(mostly thorins folk) ,displaced dwarves from the grey mountains(which were fully abandoned by that time),dwarves from the east potentially and any wandering assortments In Eriador would have rallied and settled at the kingdom of erebor I would put the guess closer to 12,000 to 15,000 possibly even 20000 because of the fact I've seen(might not be canon) 200k easterlings and orcs fought at the 3 day battle of dale I dont even think it would be strategically possible even with the men of dale to meet such a large force in battle and not be wiped out never mind having the strength and numbers to Sally out after being seiged for 2 more days. Just my thought
A 200,000 strong Easterling army fighting at Dale is something I've seen in a few comments now. From what I can tell, the number comes from LOTR Wiki with no sources to back it up. I'd be wary of figures that high, as Tolkien never really dealt in numbers like that (with the exception of a few battles).
@@DarthGandalfYT Ah it is hard to get exact numbers on this as you said which is why i enjoy these videos as they are thought provoking and interesting to talk with people about. But I wonder if this would be a good next video to do which is saurons true strength or a an estimate of what he had at minas tirith or inside mordor. I mean is it possible hes got 750k-1M orcs trolls haradrim easterlings men from Khand Black numenorians corsairs and others I'm sure I'm missing. I mean the haradrim outnumbered Rohan by 3x alone at the Pelennor fields. That and he also attacked lorien Dale and the coast of gondor and Minas Tirith at the same time and still had his biggest force waiting behind the black gate for the final battle.
We don't know much about them other than their names. Depending on their fortunes, they might be stronger or weaker than the Longbeards. But like all Dwarves, I imagine they wouldn't be incredibly numerous.
@@DarthGandalfYT I mention them due to the de-population event that you have discussed - the war of Dwarves and Orcs, I was under the impression that the 4 eastern clans participated in it. It is interesting how similar depopulation events such as the fall of the blue mountains, fall of the misty mountains settlements pre-fall of Khazad Dum, the fall of Khazad Dum, fall of the grey mountains settlements and Erebor and so on and so forth were not mentioned. In general I may have the faulty impression that the dwarves of the east retained their 1st age kingdoms.
The four other Dwarven clans did participate in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, although we're not sure how much they provided. And we're not sure about the fate of their eastern kingdoms. We know four of the Dwarven rings were consumed by Dragons, which heavily implies that the eastern Dwarves had their own problems with Dragons. As for other depopulation events, anything pre-Grey Mountains wasn't really mentioned because it would've had little impact on Dwarven strength during the War of the Ring.
@@DarthGandalfYT Indeed, it would seem that they had their own problems with dragons, however if the skills and the kingdoms of the 1st age were preserved, would those be as significant?
100,000 dwarves puts their army as stronger than Gondor, Rohan and the Elves combined, and more troops than Sauron committed at Minas Tirith. I highly highlyyy doubt they had 100k. Also how could 100k Dwarves get pushed back inside of the lonely mountain against 200k Easterlings? Easterlings are better fighters than Orcs sure but surely Dwarves are stronger.
@@oreroundpvp896 well the more popular estimations are not really that reliable either. For starters the 21,000 estimated for gondor is used off the basis of what is seen and heard of and not what would be the normal size of an army. For one many use what they see and don't take into account military system for example gondor had a Byzantium based military system that helped the Byzantium empire get numbers of up to 350k(from what I've heard)Gondor wasn't as big as the Byzantium empire during the war of the ring but it did have 716,00 square miles of land(going off the statements/calculations that put middle earth's size at a bit bigger the Europe Europe is 3.9 million square miles so middle earth should probably be 4 million as to not go overboard.Gondor would of probably had about 200k to 250k otherwise if the 21,000 was correct mordor would of taken it because even with the superior strength of gondor mordor had trolls,uruks,and so much more.So I highly advise you to research what military system the forces of the free peoples used because most of these estimations are disgustingly small and make little sense when taken into account saurons actual force. Suddenly 100k dwarves dosent seem super unrealistic as Gondor would of had 200k to 250k during the war of the ring(take away 100k because Gondor isn't as big as the Byzantium empire).
I have a problem with the theory of losing thousands of men, or dwarves, in battle causing a decline in population. The most important population for growth is women. As long women dont suffer losses you can recover the overall population in just one generation. Look what happened in WW1. Germany and France losing millions of men had greater populations by ww2 just 20 years later.
Well if they’re all like Gimli Son of Gloin you have to multiply their effective strength by 40 plus. So in kill ratio 5000 dwarves are worth 80000 orcs!
Your not accounting for migration of Dwarves back to Erabor. And the fact that in a pinch women could and would fight along side their men. Especially Dwarves. And your math is actually biologically speaking and from what we know from real life well wrong. Fact is in most if not all species females tend to outnumber males. Dwarves are humanoids their short and long lived but life expectancy doesn't dictate reproduction. Humans today are capable of living over 100 years with the oldest human living person being 118 years old. We start being capable of reproduction at about 13 years old that's when puberty usually happens. Now we do have laws in the developed world to prevent this before age 18 but we all know how well that works in real life. So a Dwarf could actually have children at the same age humans can. Rather or not it would be legal would depend on Dwarven law. So yes while 50 years old might be considered young it doesn't mean they are incapable of reproducing. As to the female factor if we look at the Dwarves closes relative aka Humans. The gap in the ratio between male and female births is literally 2% or 50.4 % of births are male vs 49.6% are female. The reason females outnumber men falls down to roles in society. Dwarves in Tokens universe are very traditional in terms of gender roles. Meaning the men do the hard labor the women do all the things required to maintain the house and society. This means men are more likely to die at a younger age than women. Which is the real reason that demographics show that women make up 50.8% of the world population. If we take the US alone there are 97.9 males per every 100 women. So Dwarf society would actually be majority female with the number of men being slightly less than the number of females. Yes this means in an exclusively male military the number of recruit's would be reduced. But also how often do Dwarves actually fight in open battle. Their homes are literally mountain fortresses built into the mountain.
According to someone named J.R.R. Tolkien, only about one-third of dwarves were female, less than half the dwarven males married, and marriage prior to the age of 90 was rare.
what is also odd is your numbers. for a real world. 10,000 is a small army for any real scale war back from ancient world to the middle ages 10,000 would be the MINIMUM. being the fact that knight templars of 10,000 strong beating armies of Muslims of 100k. o realistically an army of 500-2000 is NOTHING absolutely nothing. also lets face is humans respawn like rabbits, so the third age and Rohan and Gondor an army of 10,000 Rohan is so tiny its not even funny. these are not real numbers compared to REALITY LOTR is high fantasy so let the think low numbers and they must live in a tiny world but yeah these numbers are absolutely DUMB compared to real life standards.
It always amazed me how men had such a strong foothold in middle earth.I.e. arnor,gondor,rohan,dorwinian,harad,easterlings,etc... I mean you have super elfs who are immortal super soldier's with thousands of years of experience.200 year old dwarves which are way more stronger than men.even there elderly can fight pretty well.And millions apon millions of angry orcs,goblins,trolls and uruk.All of these races and more either outlive men bye alot or are stronger or more elegante.Even the fact that humans reproduce more quickly is irrelevant given all the orcs and beast numbering in the millions.which breed lile cockroaches. Combine all that with magic and other superowerful things good or evil that all other races posses,that most human factions lack alot of exept for wizards and curses i guess.And they look pretty outmatched. This is my opinion,it just looks to me that if middle earth was more realistic humans would be squashed by all the other more advanced races,millions of beasts,foes and monstrosities that inhabit middle earth. Sry if I didnt mention some factor from the books.Pls don't catapult my head into ministirith.
Im a simple guy...
I see a channel trying to explain the lore of Middle Earth..
I subscribe
Spot on :D I was thinking about the same thing :D
*retweet*
The thing about the battle of five armies is that they multiply the scale of the battle by like 10X. Rather than like 6000 Orcs there are now like 60k and there were definitely more than 500 dwarves in Ironfoots army
At least in the movie
@@dirkdiggler4855 If i remember correctly they put in about 2500-3000 dwarves in the movie.
To be honest, when it comes to Hollywood, they tend to care less about facts and more about what looks cool. To make matters worse, Peter was not the original director behind the films and when he did get pulled in (near last minute at that), he didn't have the same time and prep he did with Lord of the Rings. All in all, the movies were quite lacking in what I expected, and a lot of it was done more for show and entertainment then to be true to the story. It frustrates me, but at the end of the day, I give Peter the pass on this one and move on. Fingers Crossed Amamzon pulls off a good and reliable series when it comes out. Speaking of...i wonder if there have been any news updates regarding it...
@@christopherpoet458 Well for the moment it's on hold due to Covid-19 as they were doing the filming in NZ and it's on strict lockdown. Other than that there's no significant news. Probably polishing what they've made so far before getting back to filming again when restictions are lifted.
Egonieser Locman if we are talking about the new series that’s coming out I heard that the guy who was there to make sure that they didn’t change up all the lore walked off the job so that might not be a good sign.
There is no channel on you tube that actually discusess the numbers aboit LOTR.Respect Mellonin🙏
We know too the dwarves had enoguh left to colonize the Glittering Caverns, and reclaim much of what was lost.
Yeah reclaim Moria,Probably the Grey Mountains , Colonize the Glittering Caves and still have settlements in the Blue mountains ,Red Mountains and In Erebor and the Iron Hills so still a decent chunk of Dwarves
It's interesting how the two races that can live for extremely long periods of time were the ones that had so few troops to offer their service to against the orcs, which may or may not have had hundreds of thousands of troops ready to fight. Though since the dwarves dealt with mass losses and weren't able to repopulate as quickly it does make sense why the number of troops that would ally with the free people wouldn't be so high, much like the elves who did help but the men of Gondor and Rohan had to handle majority of the fighting.
That image of elves jumping over a dwarven spear line is just amazing that it actually hurts my stomach. I love how it just completely destroys the purpose of having a spear line at all. My guess is that they were trying to see who gets the most kills and the elves just jumped right in
The video discuss the book, not shitty movie
The original Gimli's and Legolas'.
Jackson makes good LOTR movies, but sometimes he just doesn't care lol especially in the Hobbit movies. For example, in Dol Guldur when Thrain is grabbed by Sauron's shadow cloud he does the Wilhelm scream 😱
that's what I noticed about the Battle of Fives armies as well. It looked like more dwarves kept showing up. When Thorin is talking to Dain, the Dwarves in the background are far to numerous and even had large banners not shown previously. Figured there some deleted scene with more of Dain's kin showing up to the battle and that's who those dwarves were.
Mr. S most likely some dwarves went back to call for reinforcements or Dain ordered the second army to show up after a period of time
Do you realize that it's the book lore discussed here and not that bullshit movie?
@@Rottensparrow Hey now, let us not denigrate 🐂💩.
Must have got the idea from Total War reinforcement mechanics.
I think i read somewhere that after the battle of the five armies dwarves from all the seven clans repopulated erebor and made it the strongest dwarven realm once more. Not sure if thats canon, but if it is that that might have given the dwarfes of erebor a huge population boost.
Another thing is in the same way the other clans participated in the war of the dwarves and orcs, i think the clans could have participated in the battle against the easterlings, i dont think this is canon but it does seem plausible, and also would justify a much bigger army.
Never heard of the first part so probs not true.
it is true that they prospered in the fourth age and khazard dum was rebuilt. that's in the appendices.
@@Razorblade510 re-taken. Moria was never per se destroyed
Well, reinforcements kept trickling in from the Ironhills during the Battle of Five armies, stragglers and malingerers and those with the shortest legs. Dwarves are natural sprinters, after all. They're wasted on cross country. I think your guesses are as good as any, though in the Battle of Dale there were certain to be thousands more who came from the Blue Mountains so I would guess by the time of Bard's grandson there were closer to 6-8000 Dwarves at full mustard, though they would always be striving to ketchup.
That first part is just absolute made up bullsheit.
Found the guy whos only seen the movies and never read the books
@@emvv3784 you know he's joking right.Legit he made multiple puns.
Dáin Ironfoot would have been in a real _pickle_ during the War of the Ring if he only had 500 soldiers, even though they were _seasoned_ warriors that could _pepper_ the Easterlings with arrows from behind their fortifications.
Wtf do you know about Dwarven malingerers? Do you even know wtf that means?
I've seen in a real TV documentary that for around a hundred years Medieval Venice had a monopoly on artisanal shiny things. They had such monopoly because they had a guild of Dwarfs and short small peoples that would go all over Europe to gather minerals, metals, gems and such. They had the phrygian caps like in Snow White. They had glyphs no one else could understand, they left them all over Europe. They say they were as good if not better than we are now at finding precious things. They could even know what minerals was in a mountain from the taste of the water going through said mountains.
Then after a hundred years. The rest of Europe finally understood the values of such things so it became the industry we know today. So Venice lost it's monopoly and the guild lost it's purpose so they just disappeared from History and became legends or myths. Some German old guy still had a story about one of his ancestor having one of those dwarfs living at their house for a while. Said he was very nice and friendly. He just needed a place to live while he was gathering stuff around lol.
The idea of dwarfs and short guys seem to be both about being discreet and about the fact the smaller you are the less you have to dig big tunnels.
Are you aware (per a BBC radio interview that can be found on RUclips) that Tolkien based the Dwarves not only on Norse mythology, but also on the Ashkenazim?
@@tominiowa2513 Nah I didn't knew that. I appreciate the information. Yet my comment wasn't about what influenced Tolkien but about a very real origin of the legend of Dwarve. I don't know if Tolkien knew about that. My comment was more an information for peoples interested in the idea or legend of the dwarve.
You DEFINITELY deserve WAYYYY more subscribers.
Pretty cool stuff, some sound reasoning there I think.
That's fantastic. Had I not subscribed already, I would do so now :)
I know this is coming a little late, but I believe we have som figures for the Dwarves at Azanulbizar; 6-10,000 I believe (3,000 of those being Durin’s Folk.)
Yeah I'll go with that.. 5000 makes sense..they are tough but slow to rejuvenate numbers.!
I need more talk about The War of The Dragons and Dwarves.
So true the dwarfs were doing fine in the first and second age while the elves and men were constantly fighting the men were collapsing in the second age and the elves were at there peak and begun to decline and the third age was bad for everyone the men’s collapse was in free fall the elves started to leave on mass to the valar and like you said the dwarves were very unlucky also I am kinda sad that we never got to see the three races at there peak 😢
dwarves were doing fine because they were hiding inside closed mountains mines
Darth gandalf do you play third age? Divide and conquer? I love this mods for medieval tw. Do you play mount and blade? There is a mod of lotr as well. It's awesome
I was actually a writer on the Divide and Conquer original team about almost ten years ago. Enedwaith was my main focus, and the goal was to have the ability to reforge Cardolan as Enedwaith if you chose the good path. That never made it in, but Arachir and his new team have done a fantastic job. I really enjoyed Ar-Adunaim especially. My other claim to fame is that I wrote the Orcs of Gundabad description in base TATW. Looking back on it now, 14/15 year old me was not as good as a writer as he thought he was. As for Mount and Blade, I'm assuming you're talking about The Last Days? I played it, but never really got into it. Really well-made mod, but I never have the patience for M&B anymore.
@@DarthGandalfYT thank you for your reply. Impressive. You are a legend then.
How about RPGs? Are a dungeon master?
Numbers are lower than I expected (was expecting 4k to be the minimum). The easterlings should've been able to walk all over such a small amount of resistance. Though Erebor seems a very hard place to attack into and I have no idea how strong the Mirkwood elves are. Great video.
There's also Dale, and they're fighting a defensive battle. On top of that the easterlings had substantial forces on the Gondor front (or that's the impression I got from the book at least), so I'm inclined to think that the easterling forces weren't that formidable either.
I doubt it was the entire Easterling force as some would have been in Gondor. IIRC the dwarf/dale defenses/offenses were going well for them but they'd been occupied for years even prior to the fellowship. Mordor's attacks then ramped up to prevent aid from arriving in Gondor but not necessarily to obliterate their home yet.
@@josephtolsma6896 in the books the men of Dale withdrew into the Fortress of Erebor and sallied forth when the orcs and easterlings quailed when Sauron was overthrown. Dain Ironfoot fell standing over the body of Brand ,son of Bard at the great age of 256 years with a mound of fallen enemies at his feet. Baruk Kahzad!🪓
Honestly 5,000 seems like a great number but if you think that they would still have to have a Garrison of the iron hills too they would have to feel more because like you said $2,000 at the lonely mountain would be impossible they would have been crushed and so I would think 5,000 at the lonely mountain and then maybe another 2-3,000 at the iron hills enough of a force to wear Sauron would have had trouble in the iron hills as well instead of just abandoning that settlement
I think your quality is quite alright, enjoyable videos
10:20 that's because you've never considered that Dwarves simply... spring out of holes in the ground!
My biggest question about the Dwarves is what they do for food. Sure, there may be a lot of trade, but an army of 5,000 implies an overall population in the tens of thousands... too much to be provided just by trading with men. The same goes for Moria in its prime.
You should do a video about it!
There's not really enough information to do a video about that. But if I had to guess - they probably have pastures either around or on the slopes of Erebor where they can grow food for themselves. They'd probably also trade extensively with the Men of Dale, considering they have no shortage of wealth and the Men of Dale have plenty of space.
Moria is a bit tougher considering we know the Dwarves didn't have farms outside of the city and likely didn't have pastures in the Misty Mountains. Outside the box thinking would have me suggest that they kept animal pastures underground and mainly fed them off of things like mushrooms or other plants that managed to survive underground.
@@DarthGandalfYT mushroom farms maybe or pigs and or goats
Read Silmarillion. There is a dwarf there who told elves that he eats mushrooms and some roots that were growing in soil
The logic IS sound. Makes me wonder, exactly what Helm's Deep would have looked like. I mean, after 100 Khazad worked on it for a year...
hil03 the glittering caves it’s a colony of dwarves lead by Gimli after the war of the ring and establish a hold near or under helms deep. I prob have some of that wrong but I feel like I remembered most of it correctly
You remembered well ^_^
@@BobblingMC the caverns of Aglarond.Gimli took many of his kin from the Lonely Mountain and wrought new gates for Minas Anor from Mithril and steel.
Excellent reasoning. Well done
We know that almost all the major mountain ranges had some populaton of dwarf after many "scattered" additionally likely some existed regardless prior to the scattering. So I would say the mountains of Gondor, Blue Mountains, Grey, Iron, and Misty all had some population of Dwarf, but as to population your guess is as good as mine. We also know FAR east of middle earth had dwarves so the far south likely would also.
Can you make a video on the strength of dale
I like your videos, as for a number I would think the dwarven army to be closer to 7000 than 5000 since I think that even with the men of Dale I find it difficult for them to have been able to loose a battle and take casualties and later be able to sally out and fight again shortly after said loss, especially since I think that there would have been injured dwarves that managed to either pull back or were taken back by their fellow dwarves during the battle and I don’t think many of them would have been able to go back into the fight after a such a bloody battle as is described by Tolkien where not one but two kings were killed. So I believe that there should have been 7000 dwarves in the battle of dale and maybe a little more along with a few thousand of the men of Dale since they seem to be stronger than even the new Kingdom of Dale.
If you are talking about numbers in the battle for Erebor in the Ringwar, you have to add the numbers of the fighters of Dale too, cause they fought together the Easterlings! That army must have been around the same sice too, if you count settlements on the river Celduin, Lake-town and Dale!
'Dude, where's my homeland?' age
I think that 6,500-7,000 is a good solid number which would allow the dwarves to take losses and still be able to fight a battle and win and come out with enough troops to defend their lands
In the book ut said 500 then in the movie were 7 thousand but very little remained, i think only 500 survived
i would think 7000. Blue hills would have a strong force defending it and there are likely settlements in the Grey mountains
Don't forget tolkien talked about the far east where dwarves could be found, but had lost contact with Iron hills and likely white mountains to the south.
One possibility to boost the dwarf population is intermarriage. For instance, that possibility was suggested in the Hobbit movies, and we saw in The Lord of The Rings that intermarriage between humans and elves was possible. These intermarriages of races could be more prevalent after the War of the Ring. The high causalities all races suffered reduced the possibilities for marriage, making reunions between the races more likely.
the 500 soldiers dain cobbled together for the battle of the 5 armies was likely just standing garrison, its not unreasonable for a city garrison to be mobilized and deployed in an offensive manner in times of need and i mean.... how many dwarves does it take to defend a dwarven city? its built into a mountain with usually one entrance and maybe a secret escape hatch. Also, its likely the dwarven army was at least 10k during Lotr simply because of migration from the blue mountains and it is likely dain would have had prior warning of an attack happening and called reinforcements form the iron hills.
Theres 2 points you didnt mention that could play a factor the war of the dwarves and orcs wasnt just durins folk but a coalition of the dwarven houses although they definitely took heavy losses and the second point is gimli uses the term legion when he says he wished he could summon a legion of dwarves to march to the aide or Gondor along with the Rohirrim. If we take the Roman term legion for its size a legion had between 4,000 and 6,000 soldiers. Not saying how many legions the dwarves could feild but i dont think gimli wouldve suggested having a legion to march to war with unless they were capable of doing that still without leaving their lands defenseless which leads me to speaculate they had at least 2 maybe 3 legions at least if not more and if we are comparing them to the ancient romans who had auxiliary units to accompany them and fight like cav, archers etc. Maybe the dwarves also had that.
I personally think the number of dwarves based off the parallels of the roman legions which at its height rome had 28 legions around half a million men alone in that regard nit counting the auxiliary troops they had with em the dwarves very well even with sustaining huge casualties like that could still feild a significant force and lets not forget at the end of the war of the ring the dwarves started to spread out and make new colonies gimli settling in helms deep for the glittering caves and a generation or 2 after the war of the ring there was durin the 7th that reclaimed moria to spread out and reclaim what they had lost and gain new colonies would have to have a pretty good sized population to support the colonies.
Yep, you're right about a coalition of Dwarven houses helping Durin's Folk, but these coalitions go home after the war is over. And as for colonies, they could, in theory, only number in the hundreds. Balin's attempt to retake Moria seemed to number in the hundreds at most. Gimli's colony in the Glittering Caves could've very well numbered the same.
@@jacobhoward673 At their highest number there was more than 60 roman legions at arms. In time of Constantine I, the number is 64-67 legions. We have identified around 50 different legions. Some of the legions were of course dispersed and replaced by others. But legions in late roman empire were often severely undermanned, units of soldiers were also tactically divided into smaller numbers. Army of Constantine I is estimated to be 645,000 men strong.
@@jacobhoward673 At their highest number there was more than 60 roman legions at arms. In time of Constantine I, the number is 64-67 legions. We have identified around 50 different legions. Some of the legions were of course dispersed and replaced by others. But legions in late roman empire were often severely undermanned, units of soldiers were also tactically divided into smaller numbers. Army of Constantine I is estimated to be 645,000 men strong. Edit: the number 645,000 was probably only on paper and the real number was much smaller.
@@valentintapata2268 Yeah at Constanines time legions consisted only 1000-3000 men.
Was the 500 number actually mentioned in the movie? I don't remember. I do remember thinking that the dwarf army looked like it was way over the 500 that were supposed to be there.
Getting meta, it is possible that the number was inaccurate. It was supposed to be Bilbo who was the author of the story. Being someone with no wartime experience, he could very easily have just picked a number that sounded big to him, but not as big as the goblin army.
The movies should be treated as fan fiction.
Your vids are great
I think 5 thousand to 6 thousand is fair number for Erebor and the Iron Hills, including the Grey Mountains. Do we know if the other 4 dwarven tribes in the east fought against the Easterlings and Sauron? I must assume that they were not nearly as numerous as the Broadbeams, Firebeams, or the Long Beards. However, due to not having a decline that is known of compared to the Longbeards. I would assume the other 4 clans are slightly larger, or similar size as the current Longbeards in the regions of Erebor, Iron Hills, and etc.
I am going to guess the Blue Mountains though have the most Dwarves. Which would primarily be Broadbeams, and Firebeams, with a great amount of Longbeards there as well.
We get mixed messages about the eastern Dwarves.
We know that at least during some points of history, some of them actually fought for the Shadow. The Edain crossed the path of "evil-minded" Dwarves when they came west during the First Age, and during the War of the Last Alliance it's mentioned that some Dwarves fought on Sauron's side.
But we know they fought alongside the Longbeards during the War of Dwarves and Orcs, and that they definitely had conflict with Dragons at some point (four of the Dwarven Rings being consumed by fire). The other three Dwarven Rings were retrieved by Sauron, one being the Longbeards', meaning the two other Rings could've possibly belonged to the eastern clans.
If I had to make a guess - it seems the eastern Dwarves likely did their own thing, but unlike the Longbeards, Firebeards and Broadbeams, some of them did fight for Sauron at certain points. It's possible that by the Third Age, they'd broken free of his influence, or perhaps the "evil Dwarves" were such a small minority that they were irrelevant.
In the Peter Jackson movie, the battle of 5 armies had waaaaaaaaay more soldiers for all combatants.
the silvan elves had at least 10,000
the dwarves had at least 7,000
the men of laketown had over 4,000 plus the civilians
and the orcs had well over 50,000 total monsters
so if it looks like there are more dwarves there than there should be, that is why. Heres the link if you want to check it out for yourself, just scroll down to ''portrayal in adaptations''
lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Five_Armies
First love the video good work.
Though I'm not sure on the 5,000 being right i think its close though and it does make sense, i think it would be better as a 7000 force which is slightly larger than Rohan at Pelennor Fields mostly because of the sally out after being battered over three days i just feel it fits more after having looked at real life battles, just a personal opinion though.
Also i like the logic on the 500 for Five Armies, if this is quick responce force or QRF by Dane then 500 veterans would be logical as they are dependable and battle hardened so he could rely on them if it came to hammertime and they would still be a deadly force and able to move quickly (Relatively).
Good estimate. Can’t be too big or they’d be more dominant even if mostly isolationist.
One thing to consider too is that Tolkien occasionally gives "unit conversions" for the strengths of different peoples. For example, iirc, he states that should even 1 Elf (I believe of the First Age) die after killing 500 goblins in a battle, it would still be considered an enormously tragic, unlucky event.
I am a bit more shaky on this, but I am pretty sure he also goes on to imply through similar sort of statements that elves were the "most powerful" when it came to combat (meaning 1 elf was the match for at least 500 goblins), Dwarves came next, and then men (who were still not a 1-to-1 with goblins, but would maybe closer to a 10-to-1).
Anyway, take it with a grain of salt, as it's been a while since I've read that passage (and don't remember if it was in the Trilogy, Silmarillion, or maybe something like The Children of Hurin or something), but I AM confident that he gave the "conversion" for elves-to-goblins in terms of combat power... and I'm reasonably confident it was 500 but yeah.
Food for thought.
That 500:1 ratio would almost certainly be for the most powerful elven warriors who had lived in Valinor during the Years of the Trees. By the time of the War of the Ring, the population of such elves in Middle Earth was approximately one (Glorfindel).
Thandurils army only consisted Avari elves who were the less powerful elven kind. They were agile and good archers but less effective in open battle and had poor quality equipment compared to Noldoli. Excellent for forest battles and ambushes but bad for field battles because ran out fast from arrows than taken heavy casualty in melee combat.
Dwarfs had very high quality, very heavy weapons and armors with extreme stamina reserve so they represented a much higher battle potential on the field in my opinion.
I really love ur videos ❤️
5:58 DF stands for “Da Fudge”
Dwarves architecture is absolutely stunnning.so is the elves and the shire.evey place was beatiful.id love to live in the shire thoigh such chill lives smoking pot all day drinking and eating.even minus mogul is morbidly wonderful.one thing jackson did to perfection was the environments the world itself was the biggest character straight from the books.it was wasnt unbelievable like most fantasy films it actually feels as though mid earth is real.
Why did he take 500 warriors they must have been like the Spartans
They're the Veteran Dwarven Soldiers of the battle of the Dwarves and Orcs ( Azalnulbizar ) so Basically they're super experienced and heavily armoured.
Do we know how many dwarves lived in Ered Luin at this time, or if any were still in Dunland?
I don't mind The Hobbit films as much, now that I know what to expect, but how accurate was film Balin to book Balin? Because he really didn't seem like the type to go leading an expedition to Moria, as he later does, apart from maybe just to get away from Dane.. Also why did The Erebor Dwarves go all the way to Ered Luin instead of just The Iron Hills? Since they were so much closer
Been a few years now since I read the books
Book Balin often acts as second-in-command to Thorin, and had a habit of acting as a sentry for the other Dwarves. So he's no stranger to leadership, and he clearly didn't mind taking the riskier roles. So him leading an expedition to Moria certainly isn't out of character. As for your second question, I'm not entirely sure. I don't think there is a canon answer. The only thing I can offer is that they desired more wealth, and perhaps they knew the Iron Hills wasn't rich enough to offer them that.
#Dwarves best race! super cool! thanks for your hard work!!!! do you think the dwarves died out post-war of the ring or prospered and flourished in the newfound peace??
They definitely flourished for a time, especially after retaking Khazad-dum, but Tolkien's writings make it pretty clear that they eventually died out. Possibly late in the Fourth Age or even in the ages beyond. Kind of a morbid ending.
Well we can't all have a happy Ending. Thanks for your response
The dwarfs come in second for me I love the elves
Do one about gondor at its peak
On the Lotr wiki, it says that «30,000 longbeards and 20,000 Men of Dale held the mountain in a similar siege [ref. Battle of the Pelennor fields] against 200,000 Men og Rhun who had taken all of Brand’s lands, leaving only his capital city of Dale»
I believe the dwarven army to be much bigger than even your biggest estimate.
king dale muster 100k dwarf and 50k dale vs 200.000 men of rhun at the battle of dale
Didn’t Tolkien “described” the numbers during the War of Dwarves and Orcs? It’s said that the estimated number would be around 6,000-10,000 strong but Durin’s Folk alone can only muster about 1-3,000 due to the population declining. During the Battle of Azanulbizar, we are told that the Dwarven army at that point was at half strength and tired after years of fighting. But in my opinion, their is no way the dwarven army was about 2-10,000 strong during the Battle of Dale. No way the Dale’s forces would be able to last 3 days of constant fighting. So I do assume that the Dwarven Army during the War of the Ring (War in the North) would be a large number
Unfortuately, Tolkien never gives a number for the War of the Dwarves and Orcs. The only things we know for sure in regards to numbers is that the Orcs were almost completely wiped out and that the Dwarves took heavy casualties, including half in the last battle.
Ok I saw the video.To be honest I consider myself a die hard fan of huge armies and battles.So 5000 seems very very little.Even 10000 is not a lot.And I have reasons for that.First as you said 500 dwarves that came from Dale is surely a small portion of the Dwarves of the Iron Hills.I guess Dain had only a day or so to prepare them.So that means only dwarves who lived near Dain's halls could prepare.Next we have the info that those 500 dwarves were almost all veterans of Azanulbizar.Also I think Dain's son(50 or 60 at the battle of the five armies) was not in the battle.So most surely he was left home to protect the Iron hills,along with many other dwarves(who also lived near Dain's halls.It's just like in the books when Aragorn left way more defenders at Minas Tirith than before the siege of Gondor started.So I'll say that Dain left 300 dwarves under his son.A very reasonable number,and maybe very small.But we have other dwarves in the Iron Hills.So I can put the Dwarves that were capable of fighting at probably 1500.Again a VERY reasonable number.But we also have tue Blue Mountains,where most of the refugees from Erebor went with Thrain.Let's assume that when Thorin started his mission to reclaim Erebor,there were more dwarves there.So I'll put the dwarves that are capable of fighting at 3000(because dwarves had lived there before Thorin came.I'll leave out The Grey Mountains because they may have been a very insignificant number there(probably 200 or so).After the battle most of the dwarves who lived in the Blue Mountains returned to Erebor(Why wouldn't they???)So after that we have 77 years of peace and a lot of prosperity for the Dwarves.Give or take the dwarves lost 300 of their people at the battle.So at the start of 1942 we have 4400 fighting dwarves(if we include the grey mountains,which I doubt)Let's say that around 1000 dwarves had died from old age from the time of the Hobbit to Lord of the Rings.77 years without plagues,wars or famine.PURE prosperity(Gloin himself said that dwarves became more prosperous than before Smaug took Erebor).Let's say that there are about 1500 dwarven women at the start of the Hobbit(1/3 ratio).We kinda have a hint of what is the average birth rate for dwarves.1 dwarven female and 2 dwarven males for every dwarven woman.Thorin had a sister and another brother.So we can assume that at least 3000 other dwarves were born.And 77 years means that another generation means 2 more generations at the most.Also more dwarves means more chance for fertility.So I'll be very conservative and say that exept for 3400 dwarves that were alive,another 7000 were born between this time.So more than 10000 dwarves capable of fighting.But I personally believe that were more than 20000 thousand.
Bruh. 5000 is very realistic.
@@matanbaruch7728 Idk my friend I'm really leaning towards more than 10000
you should not forget the other 4 clans of dwarves which lived in the red mountains , in the east
@@filipposthanasis5276 there were two clans in the east i think
@@realworldforum there were 7 clans of dwarves the durins folk the two which lived in nogrod and belegost and four others who lived in orocarni ,the red mountains
in the books dain brings 500 soldiers to the battle of the 5 armies, in the movie he brings 5 thousand.
I suspect the dwarves were the strongest due to a quality advantage. The dwarves are not only excellent craftsmen and naturally hardy but given how much they had lost to the Orcs in centuries past & their recent recovery they probably devoted a good part of their extended lifespans to training for warfare. The Dale-men are not exactly a martial people, the Vale men are decentralized, the Woodland Realm has a greater lifespan advantage than the dwarves but lack the smithcraft of dwarves and Noldor, and also have less of a revanchist drive to train beyond the "ambush any Orc that dares wander into the home forest" level.
Does "Strongest in the North" include Galadriel's realm?
The other limitations of the dwarven forces are their lack of mobility and archers
jeffhreid well dwarves most likely use crossbows, since it’s more powerful than a bow. Dwarves might lack mobility their endurance and strength makes up for their lack of mobility. Heavy armored Dwarves all the way :3
True lad but they are very dangerous over short distances
Tolkien write about the numbers of the dwarves in the war of the orcs and dwarves. 15 000 or 7000 dwarves, I'm not sure, but its one of the two numbers that answer the call of thrain to go to war
during the war of Orcs and Dwarves all 7 houses of the Dwarves sent soldiers so this shows how few dwarves were actually in existence.
Personally I think these number are low. On the scale of battle we’re talking about in the north at the end of LOTR I think 5,000 would be pushing it as the low number. That’s not including any force coming from the iron hills, where, as far as we know the dwarves lived in peace for many years. 70-80 year just from the time of the Hobbit. If you add the people of Dale to the battle how many of them would be needed to withstand the force of Easterlings? I would say they had to have been less than the dwarves because they were a much smaller number to start with and Dain brought dwarves from the iron hills when he became king. So I’m thinking no more than 3,000 men tops unless many more men had moved to Dale from other parts. That would bring the total number of dwarves and men to little over 8,000. If I remember correctly at the Battle of Helm’s Deep there were not more than 2,000 men against 10,000+ orcs and men and they only won because of the Horns. I think the Easterling army would have been bigger than that so the dwarves and mens army would have had to have been bigger. 8,000 seems like a much more realistic number, but again that is not including dwarves from the Iron Hills. Also consider Theoden mustered 10,000 speaks to send to Gondor in a hurry and left an army in Rohan to defend it. The Dwarves are not so scattered so 5,000 as a low number seems realistic to me. But again it’s all speculation. Haha great video DG. 🍻 Keep them coming.
Numbers, strategy and proper tactics is irrelevant in LoTR.
You'll get saved by eagles, trees or ghosts in the end
05:30 that picture made me ugly laugh
How many dwarves survived the battle of dale
how powerful were the dwarves in their peak? What is the biggest dwarven army they ever got?
Hard to know. If we're just talking about Durin's Folk, then possibly in the range of 20-30,000. I'd say they would've hit that peak sometime during the first half of the Second Age. Their numbers slowly dwindled after that.
@@DarthGandalfYT My head cannon tells me that Nogrod and Belegost could probably each send out 20,000+ if they chose.
There strenght wasnt in numbers it was in brute strength and there lust for battle.they were stronger then men with the most durable and strongest armour and weapons from there skill of being smiths
@@Dadecorban Don't discount Khazad Dum (or even Gundabad) in the first age either, seeing as those were the two largest and most important dwarfen cities and they had around 3000 years to build up before Morgoth even came back.
@@MajinOthinus There is not a single mention in all of the lore to suggest that Gundabad ever hosted a permanent Dwarven settlement. The power of Khazad Dum actually can be discounted since it took absolutely no part in the First Age affairs of lore, and doesn't survive to the War of the Ring. There's actually no reason to mention it. Whatever power it had, which was surely greater than the mansions of the Ered Luin, is entirely irrelevant.
How large Is Dale's Army
I do not agree with your analysis. During Battle of Dale, nearly 200000 Easterlings had seiged Erebor. With 2000 or even just 10000 dwarves, it would be impossible to take on such a large force. Also in Erebor dwarves from two Kingdoms were present- Erebor and Iron Hills. What happened in Battle of Five Armies was actually battle between just the scouting parties of Dwarves and Elves.
Arnab Banerjee that’s true since it’s stated that if Erebor wasn’t retaken, the Iron Hills will the sole defense of the North
I agree. 200k of any force would easily destroy the opposing army in this universe. But they did have the Men of Dale as well + Iron Hills. I'm thinking 50k dwarves makes sense
Just to share: I can't get excited about dwarves. I declare myself as a beard-o-phobe, which is their first big strike for me. But all their descriptions and depictions: charaacter, attitude, lifestyle, behaviour, etc, do nothing to endear them to me. The best thing I heard about dwaves was on this channel, that they pick up languages quickly. That's nice. Although they don't come across as quick-witted, to me.
This number is now canon.
What is the name of the soundtrack?
The Dwarves Explore from the BFME2 Soundtrack.
Darth Gandalf thanks for being thoughtful and answer. You earned yourself a new subscriber ! ❤️
You should have called it Dwarven Age of Darkness. Or DAD for short. The daddy issues time, if you will, as their lack of Homeland, plus the lack of proper King in s way into Thorin returned, leaves them fatherless in a way
What happens to the dwarves after the end of the War of the Ring?
Short answer - They prosper for a time and eventually take back Moria under a future king, Durin VII. However, mostly due to low birthrates, the Dwarves eventually die out sometime in the Fourth Age or beyond.
@@DarthGandalfYT Thanks!! Btw Love the videos
@Darth Gandalf jeez the 4th age sucked for everyone besides the men I never enjoy hearing about the 4th age because my 2 favorite races the elves and dwarfs decline
@@MrHistory269 I'm pretty sure the history that most RUclipsrs bring up for the 4th age was a scrapped concept.So I guess it's more so up to our minds.
@@avonthesageoc4980 yay
I would like to state that dwarves are fierce warriors, 1 dwarf probably equals to 5 to 10 orcs and 3 to 5 humans, they are sturdy as hell, look at gmili! so even with low numbers, they pack a punch
Gimli had plot armour
@@PropiaPersona that is true, but I like to think that dwarves are so much tanky than other races
@@hil0318 in size maybe, but in combat? 1 dwarf kills so many orcs that is hard to count. just look who won the war of dwarves and orcs :P
Well Gimli nailed 42 and Legolas 41! Better armed and more skilled!
@@simonmorris4226 and Legolas had a bow!
All of the history of the legendarium shows Saurons strategy was to scatter and destroy the dwarves who were most resistant to his powers being the creation of Saurons original master Aule. Hence the Balrog, the war of dwarves and orcs and the depredations of Smaug.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no evidence that Sauron and had any knowledge of each other. Also, it's clear from the appendices that Smaug was merely acting from simple dragon greed.
It's true that Gandalf feared that Sauron could make devastating use of Smaug but that was for the future as at the time of the battle of 5 armies Sauron was making his way back to Mordor.
@@mikegagne3263 at the very least Smaug would have taken advantage of the turmoil. And being in possession of a palantir Sauron would have been very aware of Smaug’s presence especially as Dol Guldur was relatively near the Lonely Mountain. Driving the dwarves from their stronghold there was likely an early move in a long game!
@@simonmorris4226 sorry my bad. Should have better proof read my answer
I wanted to say that Sauron and the Balrog had no knowledge or relationship with each other. As for Sauron and Smaug, the timeline us wrong for the time of The. Hobbit. By the time Sauron has possession of the palantir in Mordor, Smaug is dead, so a moot point.
@@mikegagne3263 Sauron had possession of the Ithil stone ever since it was captured in the fall of Minas Ithil. This was many centuries before the times of the Hobbit. And as Tolkien states he would not pass any object of such power into the hands of a subordinate!
@@simonmorris4226 citation please
He does say that about the ring of power, although it wouldn't matter. Being slaves to the ring, Tolkien tells us that if they found the ring the nazgul would immediately bring it to him. Hence the embassy to the Lonely Mountain, hence the hunt to the Shire. Was the palantir at Dol Guldur? Maybe, but nowhere is that stated in the legendarium. Please note that Tolkien does the palantiri had to be adjusted to see in a particular direction. Possible? Sure. Likely? I'm not so sure. At that time he was planning an exit to Mordor and had been busy trying to finishing up the business of rebuilding his strength.
The thing is that Dwarves are as strong as humans maybe Even stronger and means the can have really heavy weapons and big shields wich can give them better chances and they live in a mountain an Get their own material
I kind of find it hard to believe that they only fielded 5,000 Dwarves i would believe that dwarves from the blue mountains(mostly thorins folk) ,displaced dwarves from the grey mountains(which were fully abandoned by that time),dwarves from the east potentially and any wandering assortments In Eriador would have rallied and settled at the kingdom of erebor I would put the guess closer to 12,000 to 15,000 possibly even 20000 because of the fact I've seen(might not be canon) 200k easterlings and orcs fought at the 3 day battle of dale I dont even think it would be strategically possible even with the men of dale to meet such a large force in battle and not be wiped out never mind having the strength and numbers to Sally out after being seiged for 2 more days. Just my thought
A 200,000 strong Easterling army fighting at Dale is something I've seen in a few comments now. From what I can tell, the number comes from LOTR Wiki with no sources to back it up. I'd be wary of figures that high, as Tolkien never really dealt in numbers like that (with the exception of a few battles).
@@DarthGandalfYT Ah it is hard to get exact numbers on this as you said which is why i enjoy these videos as they are thought provoking and interesting to talk with people about. But I wonder if this would be a good next video to do which is saurons true strength or a an estimate of what he had at minas tirith or inside mordor. I mean is it possible hes got 750k-1M orcs trolls haradrim easterlings men from Khand Black numenorians corsairs and others I'm sure I'm missing. I mean the haradrim outnumbered Rohan by 3x alone at the Pelennor fields. That and he also attacked lorien Dale and the coast of gondor and Minas Tirith at the same time and still had his biggest force waiting behind the black gate for the final battle.
@@DarthGandalfYT great work love the videos!
@@bryanhodge8189 I'll definitely be doing a video on Sauron's forces in the near future, and thank you for your words.
They looked like a roman legion , and a roman legion also had a typical strength of 5000 .
What about the other Dwarven clans - those in the Red Mountains?
We don't know much about them other than their names. Depending on their fortunes, they might be stronger or weaker than the Longbeards. But like all Dwarves, I imagine they wouldn't be incredibly numerous.
@@DarthGandalfYT I mention them due to the de-population event that you have discussed - the war of Dwarves and Orcs, I was under the impression that the 4 eastern clans participated in it.
It is interesting how similar depopulation events such as the fall of the blue mountains, fall of the misty mountains settlements pre-fall of Khazad Dum, the fall of Khazad Dum, fall of the grey mountains settlements and Erebor and so on and so forth were not mentioned.
In general I may have the faulty impression that the dwarves of the east retained their 1st age kingdoms.
The four other Dwarven clans did participate in the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, although we're not sure how much they provided. And we're not sure about the fate of their eastern kingdoms. We know four of the Dwarven rings were consumed by Dragons, which heavily implies that the eastern Dwarves had their own problems with Dragons.
As for other depopulation events, anything pre-Grey Mountains wasn't really mentioned because it would've had little impact on Dwarven strength during the War of the Ring.
@@DarthGandalfYT Indeed, it would seem that they had their own problems with dragons, however if the skills and the kingdoms of the 1st age were preserved, would those be as significant?
Big fan of the dwarves. But they're so flawed...
I wouldn't worry about it. Everyone in Tolkien's universe is flawed.
_Salted pork_
And pipe weed, maaaan.
Pipe.Weed.
"We are sitting on a field of victory, maaaan."
"You two are stoned out of your minds.."
Jason Bourne .......hobbits
How much did the average dwalf weight ?t
during the 2nd battle of dale king Dain muster a 100k dwarves army
how u know that
@@jonystyles9473 lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Dale
100,000 dwarves puts their army as stronger than Gondor, Rohan and the Elves combined, and more troops than Sauron committed at Minas Tirith. I highly highlyyy doubt they had 100k. Also how could 100k Dwarves get pushed back inside of the lonely mountain against 200k Easterlings? Easterlings are better fighters than Orcs sure but surely Dwarves are stronger.
@@oreroundpvp896 well the more popular estimations are not really that reliable either.
For starters the 21,000 estimated for gondor is used off the basis of what is seen and heard of and not what would be the normal size of an army.
For one many use what they see and don't take into account military system for example gondor had a Byzantium based military system that helped the Byzantium empire get numbers of up to 350k(from what I've heard)Gondor wasn't as big as the Byzantium empire during the war of the ring but it did have 716,00 square miles of land(going off the statements/calculations that put middle earth's size at a bit bigger the Europe Europe is 3.9 million square miles so middle earth should probably be 4 million as to not go overboard.Gondor would of probably had about 200k to 250k otherwise if the 21,000 was correct mordor would of taken it because even with the superior strength of gondor mordor had trolls,uruks,and so much more.So I highly advise you to research what military system the forces of the free peoples used because most of these estimations are disgustingly small and make little sense when taken into account saurons actual force.
Suddenly 100k dwarves dosent seem super unrealistic as Gondor would of had 200k to 250k during the war of the ring(take away 100k because Gondor isn't as big as the Byzantium empire).
I don't have anything against the people that make these calculations but I do have a gripe with how they get to the number.
Une traduction française serais possible ?
how physically strong are dwarves
No calvery and they'd be slaughtered by heavy calvery too
I have a problem with the theory of losing thousands of men, or dwarves, in battle causing a decline in population. The most important population for growth is women. As long women dont suffer losses you can recover the overall population in just one generation. Look what happened in WW1. Germany and France losing millions of men had greater populations by ww2 just 20 years later.
Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu ! 🪓 🏔
hil03 that ones good too.
Well if they’re all like Gimli Son of Gloin you have to multiply their effective strength by 40 plus. So in kill ratio 5000 dwarves are worth 80000 orcs!
they were the primary power of the North at that time...
1:39 Is it just me or does that cloud look really weird? Ah nevermind...
500 warriors is a Battalion, not an Army.
In modern terms
Of you are the owner of a gay Spa im a Dwarven Realm you get rich Quick
Your not accounting for migration of Dwarves back to Erabor. And the fact that in a pinch women could and would fight along side their men. Especially Dwarves. And your math is actually biologically speaking and from what we know from real life well wrong. Fact is in most if not all species females tend to outnumber males.
Dwarves are humanoids their short and long lived but life expectancy doesn't dictate reproduction. Humans today are capable of living over 100 years with the oldest human living person being 118 years old. We start being capable of reproduction at about 13 years old that's when puberty usually happens. Now we do have laws in the developed world to prevent this before age 18 but we all know how well that works in real life.
So a Dwarf could actually have children at the same age humans can. Rather or not it would be legal would depend on Dwarven law.
So yes while 50 years old might be considered young it doesn't mean they are incapable of reproducing.
As to the female factor if we look at the Dwarves closes relative aka Humans. The gap in the ratio between male and female births is literally 2% or 50.4 % of births are male vs 49.6% are female. The reason females outnumber men falls down to roles in society. Dwarves in Tokens universe are very traditional in terms of gender roles. Meaning the men do the hard labor the women do all the things required to maintain the house and society.
This means men are more likely to die at a younger age than women. Which is the real reason that demographics show that women make up 50.8% of the world population.
If we take the US alone there are 97.9 males per every 100 women. So Dwarf society would actually be majority female with the number of men being slightly less than the number of females.
Yes this means in an exclusively male military the number of recruit's would be reduced. But also how often do Dwarves actually fight in open battle. Their homes are literally mountain fortresses built into the mountain.
According to someone named J.R.R. Tolkien, only about one-third of dwarves were female, less than half the dwarven males married, and marriage prior to the age of 90 was rare.
what is also odd is your numbers. for a real world. 10,000 is a small army for any real scale war back from ancient world to the middle ages 10,000 would be the MINIMUM. being the fact that knight templars of 10,000 strong beating armies of Muslims of 100k. o realistically an army of 500-2000 is NOTHING absolutely nothing. also lets face is humans respawn like rabbits, so the third age and Rohan and Gondor an army of 10,000 Rohan is so tiny its not even funny. these are not real numbers compared to REALITY LOTR is high fantasy so let the think low numbers and they must live in a tiny world but yeah these numbers are absolutely DUMB compared to real life standards.
It always amazed me how men had such a strong foothold in middle earth.I.e. arnor,gondor,rohan,dorwinian,harad,easterlings,etc...
I mean you have super elfs who are immortal super soldier's with thousands of years of experience.200 year old dwarves which are way more stronger than men.even there elderly can fight pretty well.And millions apon millions of angry orcs,goblins,trolls and uruk.All of these races and more either outlive men bye alot or are stronger or more elegante.Even the fact that humans reproduce more quickly is irrelevant given all the orcs and beast numbering in the millions.which breed lile cockroaches.
Combine all that with magic and other superowerful things good or evil that all other races posses,that most human factions lack alot of exept for wizards and curses i guess.And they look pretty outmatched.
This is my opinion,it just looks to me that if middle earth was more realistic humans would be squashed by all the other more advanced races,millions of beasts,foes and monstrosities that inhabit middle earth.
Sry if I didnt mention some factor from the books.Pls don't catapult my head into ministirith.
Just learn to say your th's
It isn't difficult. Only laziness prohibits you.