I’d like to think that TA Sauron lamented and wistfully thought of the good old days when his boss’s enemies and SA enemies were barely or borderline not united by a common goal and destroyed each other.
I have always hoped (head canon) that before he died in Valinor, Gimli had a chance to meet Aule the Vala responsible for his people coming into existence. What a way to go.
I constantly forget how old Galadriel is. When mentioned the thing about her refusing to give Fëanor a lock of her hair. In the Years of the Trees! It's sooo long ago.
@@Raiseflag_Surrender You forgot Earendil. And also Tuor his father. "and with Idril Celebrindal Tuor set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."
Personally, I think Elrond's human blood also plays a role in his perception of the dwarves. One of the elves' biggest problems is that they tend to look down on almost everyone, and while humans might do this as well from time time, they are far more accepting and less judgmental.
Elrond was literally saved by Durin's folk in Eregion so was indebted to them for that. If they hadn't have come Elrond would have been killed and Rivendell would never have been founded.
It's not his blood but his wisdom. Elrond is a scholar and is able to see the big picture, unlike his bretheren who are consumed with their passions and prejudices. When you have great lords like Glorfindel and beings like Gandalf referring to him for counsel you know he is special
I think you make a great point. On the one hand, his human half may be less haughty (parallels with Spock and his human half), which gives him a different perspective. Also, having his two feet planted in different worlds may have made him accustomed to seeing things from two different perspectives, broadening his viewpoint. It also makes me wonder: is Spock just Space Elrond?
He’s also raised by and alongside Noldor. First Maglor and Maedhros, who had great friendship with dwarves, then Gil-Galad and also Celebrimbor of Eregion. The Noldor and dwarves always had an ironclad friendship from the FA right until the third where the last Noldor leave Middle Earth. The dwarves’ bad blood was always with the Sindar, and later with Silvan elves who are close kin to the Sindar. This is an important distinction to make.
A little out of the topic, but it's interesting how the humans have a far more healthy relationship with the dwarves, than they have with their actual siblings.
A little late to the party (as usual but I always finished well), I think you're right on topic: All of Tolkien's writings are fantastic allegories to the real-world. The kindness to strangers vs. meanness to one's relatives.
@@MrMarinus18 and the dwarves are just good trading parnters with humans we pay in food and they give us great riches worth many times what we gave and both sides call it a steal as dwarves do not have the skills or desire for animal husbandry or good farming skills
This was a great macroscopic review of the various troubles between these two races. I knew of all of them but not in their connections. This helped me get a better long-term understanding and how the immortality of the elves helped hinder time healing all wounds.
I remember when I read Lord of the Rings for the first time I got angry at how elves treated Gimli. How could me so arrogant and close-minded when they have lived so much and were so wise, but later Galadriel put them in their place by treating Gilmi way better.
@@loka7783 Yeah it's true I have read it after Lord of the Rings. Also, Thingol from Silmarillion was an arrogant prick. When I read the scene who was killed by the dwarfs my reaction was, f around find out.
That is one thing I hate in the movies, it is that they try to make the elves look all cool and great while the dwarves as a joke. It is like the hobbit movie and even lord of the rings movie was done by a elf. I read the hobbit first so I have a soft spot for the dwarves. They were like the main characters along with Bilbo and Gandalf. They were also awesome and powerful and loved their adventure and the elves of Mirkwood was awful. However it was funny that the prisons were so comfortable and Bilbo says being in the prison was even better at times than the journey because of the food and comfort.@@loka7783
This whole background between the dwarves and elves just makes the friendship that emerged between Legolas and Gimli all the more wonderful. If we could all set aside "group think" and interact with others as individuals like that the world would be a much better place.
I can’t for the life of me read most of Tolkien’s works such as the Silmarillion, but I make up for it by watching your videos and jotting down notes like it’s a class. I love exploring this complex fantasy world and your videos are incredibly well made and beautiful. I get lost for hours in them.
Now for the Nauglimír. In many ways, this story is the tragic climax of all three “Great Tales”. Beren and Lúthien retrieve a Silmaril that causes more grief than light-with Húrin’s later travels bleeding into the fall of Gondolin and Doriath. So, without the Eärendil story, the trilogy each ends with Morgoth triumphant.
I think it might be possible that the actions of the dwarves in Menegroth were more a result of seeing the Silmaril rather than the Nauglamír. If course they were attached to this great creation of their ancestors and, being master artisans themselves, they undoubtedly recognised the Silmaril as the greatest of all gems, stirring up jealousy and greed. But I think it's also likely that they came under the Doom of Mandos (which would always cause distrust, discontent and betrayal) by wanting to possess it. Thingol too brought himself and his realm under the doom of Mandos by asking Beren for a Silmaril, even though he was not a Noldo, and it is said in the Silmarillion that possessing a Silmaril or even wanting to possess it would have catastrophic consequences. In a sense, the Silmaril were truly "cursed" objects, being among the most beautiful things in Arda but holding a terrible fate for everyone who came into contact with them. Even for Earendil and Elwing, despite the fact that their Silmaril helped them to get to Aman.
One other event is described in The Hobbit chapter 8 "Flies and Spiders" which reads : In ancient days they (the elves of Mirkwood) had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what is their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay."
This is one of your best videos yet! It was very well done and I really enjoyed watching this summary of the Elf vs. Dwarf feud in the Tolkien legendarium. Bravo!
Or....ask "Who wrote the story " meaning, is there another version to that point of view? Or did Tolkien provide two views, but we focus only on the elf version?
I like Robert's interpretation that to label the dwarves as digging "too greedily and too deep" is unfair and likely due to the histories of Middle Earth coming mostly from elves. They had no reason to know there was a Balrog under their feet and had been mining there for millennia. Not just for their benefit, but also the elves and men who coveted mithril as well. If you have the only access to the the only known veins of the greatest material in the world, why would you stop digging it out? Dwarves were doing exactly what they were made to do. It's also funny to me that the elves are mad that the dwarves awakened the balrog while mining the mithril that the elves wanted. It was the elves fighting with the Valar against Melkor, dwarves weren't involved, so was partially their responsibility for letting any balrogs escape to begin with.
If you’re short, hairy, constantly doing hard labour and getting your sh*t gobbled up by giant flying lizards you’d hate people who are tall, pretty, immortal and galavanting about talking about trees also
Loved how Legolas and Gimli forming a friendship was in a way their own arc. Even though Tolkien wasn't meaning this to be an allegory I can easily apply this to the idea of all humans of different races forming friendships with each other for the betterment of the world and themselves.
I haven't donated in a while 😢😔, but I will be after this one. The way you tied everything together from the 1st Age, 2nd Age friendship between Dwarves and Elves, and 3rd age "current"events in LOTR, it came together very, very well.
I think the elves see the dwarves as obsessed with their treasures and gold to the point they are corruptible and unreliable, so consider them a lesser race. All while ignoring the misdeeds of their fellow elves and the various bouts of madness, kin-slayings and betrayals they waged against their own kind.
After hearing what Thingol said to the dwarves, about them personally and their people, their violent reaction is a little more understandable. Still an evil act and primarily for that cursed rock, yes, but his total lack of diplomacy made things much worse.
If Pipe-Weed existed in the first age, Morgoth woulda been chilling in Angband laughing it up with Sauron as they watched the free people’s of Middle Earth ruin themselves with conflicts like these. In fact Morgoth woulda been so out of it he will have said that meant for the Silmaril to be stolen and that was his plan all along for the elves and dwarves to screw each other over. A good origin story for the emnity between the two races. I gotta admit though the more I learn of Thingol the less goodwill I have towards him. He was kinda asking for it and I wonder what Melian even saw in him.
Maybe Thingol was a good elf to begin with but became prideful overtime. Melian being wiser probably did keep him in check without usurping his authority and headship.
Thingol and Melian met each other before the years of the trees even started, they would have been together for thousands of years. You'd know someone pretty well after being in a committed relationship with them for that long, you'd be aware of their flaws and positives.
Considering that Tolkien spelled it out in an appendix that it was some sort of "Nicotiana," they probably wouldn't have chilled much. Peter Jackson either didn't read that, or didn't care.
I do wonder if Celeborn had outright refused the Fellowship entry, if Galadriel would have overruled him. Didn't Galadriel far "out-rank" Celeborn? She was the grandchild of both Finwë and Olwë. Wasn't she, if not the most powerful, one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth at the time? Of course, she wouldn't shame her husband Celeborn into submission in public, but I have no doubt that behind closed doors that she, who was born in Valinor, who defended her mother's kin in the first Kinslaying, who helped lead the throng across the Helcaraxë, would have insisted in no uncertain terms, that the Fellowship be housed, healed, and aided.
Celeborn and Galadriel ruled together, but everyone knew she was the greater Elf. Celeborn and Galadriel did discuss the Fellowship as Haldir delayed them, and Elrond sent messages to help their case. It's not like Galadriel slapped her husband down
In the memory of the Westlands, yes it is only during the height of Sauron's Dominion (SA 3319 - 3441), that we see Dwarves fight for both the Dark Lord and the Free People's. They are mentioned in the history of the War of the Last Alliance and the Downfall of Sauron in SA 3441. It can be assumed that most who fought for Sauron were from the Houses of the Eastern Dwarves. For all Dwarves of Durin's Folk and the Western Houses fought against Sauron.
i like to imagine that every instanse started with good intentions but the stubborness of dwarfs combined with the coldness of elves when they are angry...led to some...misscommunications
In the Music of the Ainur, each Ainu weaves music through melodies from the part of Eru's mind. The dwarves that Aulë created is also a tune he added to the music. In this context, the dwarves are again a product of Eru's mind. Aulë (as Eru told Melkor) is just an instrument here. So the conflict between dwarves and elves is a reflection of Eru's mental imbalance.
In the Silmarillion when Aule created the dwarves, Illuvatar chided him and Aule was going to destroy the dwarves. Illuvater reluctantly 'accepted' them, but said their would 'Strife between the Elves and Dwarves'. (Not exact wording, but years since i read it).
Tolkien has to get his dwarves in there because they appear, like the elves, mysteriously and randomly in ancient mythology. The "secretive people' as he said.
The "O ye of uncouth race..." speech by Thingol was written by Christopher Tolkien, it turns out. He admitted it to Verlyn Flieger when she challenged him on it.
Sort of. CT repurposed what Tinwelint said to Urin: "Yet what is it to me-and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalië? Lo! in Palisor my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke." BoLT, Turambar and the Foaloke
Something that goes unremarked is that these races had separate interests. The elves tended to be woodlands beings. They were scholars and scientists. More of an Air tribe. Dwarves were more likely to be miners and Metallurgists and engineers. An Earth people. There was crossover to be sure, but still some of their misunderstandings resulted from these natural inclinations. Humans tended to be farmers and more Jacks of all Trades. I also believed they dominated maritime pursuits. Alas, lack of understanding often leads to indemnity.
0:53 got that right. Writing my own book, i love the elves but even though i don't particularly like the short dudes it gives bad vibes to have two enemies of one enemy hating each other, and this I am not taking this idea for my book (as I have done a lot) 😁
@@rickeyheard4454 ok first I'm a girl (but you probably didn't know that cause Im using my dad's phone) I appreciate that someone won't laugh at me cause I'm eleven, and I'm actually working on four books! An entire series, but please don't say things like h_ll here I'd rather not learn bad stuff but if I ever do publish these, look for me under the name of Liset
So the animosity between elves and dwarves effectively boils down to "a member of one race makes some insult to some member(s) of the other, who then escalate and exacerbate the situation" repeated with tedious regularity over tens of thousands of years
The true reason is Iluvatar. As he said to Aulë upon deciding to allow the Dwarves to exist: "But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice." So in reality, all the conflicts between Elves and Dwarves are simply born out of this proclamation from Iluvatar.
In the Silmarillion, when Aule created the Dwarves and Illuvatar wanted Aule to destroy them, Illuvatar heard the Dwarves beg for mercy and changed his mind. Iluvatar then said to Aule 'There shall be strife between the firstborn and the Dwarve's'. (Cannot rem. exact qoute).
Nauglamir had a magic that made it weightless on the wearers kneck & once the Silmarill was added it stirred hearts to flame…. That Silmarill was worn by Earendill as he finally made it West.
In 'Concerning... "The Hoard"' Tolkien provides an alternate viewpoint where the conflict between Thingol and the dwarves is initiated by Thingol reneging on his agreed payment to the dwarves, and, enraged, they leave unpaid. It's an interesting view that's closer to the original found in The Book of Lost Tales. There, the dwarves complete the necklace, then demand a payment that Tinwelint (earlier version of Thingol) finds outrageous, so he has them whipped and sent away with a paltry sum.
Since in universe The Hobbit is written by Bilbo, could it maybe be interpreted the lack of hostility between dwarves and elves is more Bilbo’s lack of appreciation and understanding at the time for the ancient feud?
I'm sure the fact that, during the creation, the dwarves accidentally woke up first when that honor was supposed to go to the elves, plays a large role in their initial deep-seated dislike for each other.
Whenever I think of the hatred between Elves and Dwarves, I always remember Elu Thingol and his sickest of burns that he laid on the dwarves seconds before they killed him. "How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, who's life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted 'ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke." Doesn't seem like much on it's face but when you read into it you can see clearly for a proud and stubborn folk enchanted by the Silmaril it would be words to be killed for.
Asking this question for me is like asking why human beings hate people that aren't of a similar skin tone or are just different in general. But hating people different than yourself is a tale as old as time. But in case all else fails, blame Morgoth.
I wonder if Tolkien scholars or aficionados have debated this matter when it comes to the actions and free will of the races. On one hand the elves, dwarves and men have screwed themselves and each other so much that it’s no wonder Morgoth spent a lot of his time sitting on his ass. Yet on the other hand, it is stated without a doubt and in fine Silmarillion print that Morgoth is responsible for seeing discord and chaos through the music…which in turn is done so because Eru Illuvatar said so. Can it really truly be the fault of the three races then for all the crap they did in their self destruction or was all this really part of Morgoth’s design and Eru’s plan?
And people are incredibly naive if they think this would ever change. Racism is engraved in us. When we meet aliens for the first time, whether they would be more or less developed than us, we would redirect our racism towards them.
@myriadmediamusings Given Tolkien's strong catholicism, I'd suggest the answer would be that perhaps despite Eru's plan, all the beings ultimately have their own free will - and that Eru's "plan" is more or less simply prophecy
The hate of Elves and Dwarves to each other have at least a solid foundation and reasons. Sometimes it's the Elves with their pride over other races and sometimes a mistake or emotional rollercoaster of both. Our hate about skin color is mostly a baseless nonsense crap that were born from idiots. Honestly that's it, that's the whole history about this whole skin color racism BS.
There's something so profound in Galadriel giving gimli her hair. Fëanor being dead millennias earlier, her having assisted literally all the world's horrors and sorrow, those hair represents the ages-wise declaration of everyone fundamentally being equal in the fight against malice. It really is a strong message
Don't forget Elves do not 'die' as such. They are in the halls of Mandos as spirit for a while, then re incarnated in the flesh. So Feanor 'being' incarnated and finding out Galadrial gave a 'gasp' Dwarf some of her hair would have really irked him. Lol.
To say "necromancer" in 1937 likely only refers to sciomancy, but the repulation that goes with it sets the stage of the world. Even before the legendarium was tied to the Hobbit, Tolkien set up that the adventure is just a part of a larger world with larger threats. With his other works in mind, death is a part of the natural order of Middle Earth. To go against that is to defy Eru Iluvatar. By calling him Necromancer, it's giving a glimpse at his nature/morality, without describing his specific atrocities.
What I find incredible about Tolkien's writings is not so much the rivalry between dwarves and elves, but how humans and elves get along. You would think that the arrogance of the elves and the greed of the humans would cause a lot of friction, but in Tolkien's stories the two races get along very well. Even the sons of Feanor, the most arrogant elves, treated humans well and gave them land. Elves throughout the history of middle-earth have treated humans very well, and humans have almost always been on the elves' side (The exception being Numenor's envy of the elves' immortality in latter days).
I hate to be that guy, but in the Hobbit film, Thranduil didn’t want to attack Erebor for its gold, he wanted his dead wife’s necklace which the Dwarves claimed as a spoil and refused to return to the significant other. The extended version of the Hobbit movies are so much better, especially for Battle of the Five Armies, where a lot of context is missing. I mean, Peter Jackson didn’t wanna make a third film, only two, but he was forced to due to studio intervention.
I wanna see movies like - "War of Elves and Dwarves", "Angmar", "Morgoth", "Numenor", etc. They can literally make movies out of this and people would love it. Of course, if they stay true to the lore. They love money, we love Tolkien, make movies!
At one time before the First War, there was a covenant between to Elves, Dwarves and Human that was more or less an alliance to help each other in time of war. The elves broke the pact after the first war and refused to help the dwarves.
This comment probably wont be read, and forgive my ignorance. But in LOTR FOR when the fellowship reaches the hidden doors into Moria, my 8 year old son asked me why the dwarves would carve words in Elvish, if they hate each other. And why is it that Gandalf, not Legolas who answers Frodo's question as to "what is the elvish word for friend?". Thank you!
9 месяцев назад
interesting... especially the Elvish writing to access Moriah. Good point
If an Elf and a Dwarf, 2 ancient blood enemies can become life long Brothers, than there is hope. I think the real world could take a page from that! 🖖😁🤘🇨🇦
For Galadriel to reward a Dwarf which deepest of desire was the adoration of Galadriel herself, a kind which Eru himself said would be at odds, noted dwarves desire were towards objects rather then that of any creature, i think Galadriel knew that he was the true breaker of a cycle and the love in his heart was probably the purest of any dwarf she ever witnessed.
What I never really understood - as the Balrog was created by Morgoth - why the elves did not aid the dwarves in their battle with the Balrog as it was also a threat to them. A balrog was only second to Sauron in power and evil.
I always found it fascinating that the dwarves were outside of Illuvitar's divine plan for Arda since he didn't create them. Perhaps that's why not only elves, but men and other races don't generally speak or think well of dwarves in Tolkien's various works because they sense the "otherness" about them. In fact, by their very nature dwarves are not likable but argumentative, slovenly, and greedy. Actually, most things that live underground aren't very appealing, including the dwarves. The dwarves' un-likeability is the biggest reason I think The Hobbit book and films don't work nearly as well as the LOTR. Yes, the dwarves seek to return to their mountain home, but a LOT of that motivation has to do with getting their gold back. Since their goal is largely a self-serving and materialistic one involving money it's hard to root for them unlike Frodo's selfless goal of saving the world in the LOTR. The dwarves will always be the outsiders in Arda.
the whole elves hunting the petty dwarves thing is one of Tolkiens few missteps imo. Elves had already traveled a massive proportion of middle earth and lived long lives from our perspective whilst under the direct and semi direct influence of Orome when they first encountered the petty dwarves. Outside of Melkor and Orome they’d never meet any other bipedal, speaking, garment and tool equipped, organized creatures of any kind… unless they’d already educated the ents? Anyways so they come across these advanced creatures for the first time and thought… “oh look at those little creatures with axes and clothing, they remind me of deer and beavers! Even after killing the first odd few and surly investigating their kill, still they weren’t like hmmm… strange that these game animals were coordinating with one another via language? Kinda a silly stretch imo idk. Besides do we think those elves were taking “game” and not respectfully utilizing it? Do elves kill animals on mass and not use them for pelts or food? Did the elves eat those petty dwarves? Whole thing is conceptually lazy imo.
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That filter you use keeps me scratching the screen thinking its a smudge above the horses ear. 14:11
No thanks.
Hard pass on black Aragorn.
@@brohanfromrohan5771 And Asian Gandalf.
where do you find your LOTR art used in your videos?
Good guy Sauron. Always bringing folk together for a common goal.
It is true in our world too my friend, but few of us understand that evil must exist
I’d like to think that TA Sauron lamented and wistfully thought of the good old days when his boss’s enemies and SA enemies were barely or borderline not united by a common goal and destroyed each other.
He‘s a good boooyyy!
@@zeroid105I mean, he looks pretty femboyish in his elf form, so he definitely is a good boy
I got thinking of the expression “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”.
The bitter relationship between Thorin and Thranduil is the ultimate example of “I hate you, but I hate Orcs more.”
the enemy of my enemy is my friend
Maybe not friend, but a currently useful enemy.
The best part in the hobbit is when the dwarves show up 500 strong ready to kick some elven butt. They did a great job with that scene in the movie.
dude thats the line from beorn
@@yourmanofstature that is correct!
I have always hoped (head canon) that before he died in Valinor, Gimli had a chance to meet Aule the Vala responsible for his people coming into existence. What a way to go.
I'd never thought of that! What a wonderful concept. Thanks!
I was thinking exactly the same thing, how cool would that be????@crichtonbruce4329
Gosh i sure hope they met
Nice thought. That would be like Moses meeting God at the burning bush but instead at the fiery forge
People don't die in Valinor it's literally the undying lands.
It’s so awesome that Tolkien had all of these deep backstories to little things that we see in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings
IKR. It's makes one think that he must have been copying from somewhere
@@benmichael4265not really, just that he invested a lot of time and care into his works
@@Fulcrumn9 He's a legend
@@benmichael4265 I know
There is The Silmarillion book about Middle-earth before Hobbit and LotR.
I constantly forget how old Galadriel is. When mentioned the thing about her refusing to give Fëanor a lock of her hair. In the Years of the Trees! It's sooo long ago.
Takes on a hilarious, if creepy, tone if you also remember that Feanor is actually Galadriel’s uncle.
But yet gave Gimli some after he stammeringly asked for some.
@@myriadmediamusingsfirst creepy uncle in history 😅
@@neil999ishthat's a sign that Galadriel never forget about Fëanor
that Legolas got permission to take Gimli with him to the Undying Lands, so he's the only Dwarf to see them, is just amazing.
Not just Legolas but, Galadriel herself pulled strings to get him permission.
Аnd Frodo, except Beren, was the only one from the race of Men to see Valinor. But Beren only saw the halls of Mandos.
@@Raiseflag_Surrender You forgot Earendil. And also Tuor his father.
"and with Idril Celebrindal Tuor set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."
He also died there, as the Undying Lands was simply the home of the undying. Not a place granting immortality.
@@johns1625elwing as well, right? iirc she went there as well to support eärendil's plea for aid against morgoth
"Never thought I would die fighting side by side with an elf."
"What about side by side with a friend?"
"...Aye. I could do that."
Damn smoke got in my eyes watching that scene, 20 minutes later- "Don't tell the elf"
Only in the movies.
Now I'm imagining Galadriel deciding to give Gimli three strands of her hair just as one last middle finger to Fëanor.
Personally, I think Elrond's human blood also plays a role in his perception of the dwarves. One of the elves' biggest problems is that they tend to look down on almost everyone, and while humans might do this as well from time time, they are far more accepting and less judgmental.
Elrond was literally saved by Durin's folk in Eregion so was indebted to them for that. If they hadn't have come Elrond would have been killed and Rivendell would never have been founded.
It's not his blood but his wisdom. Elrond is a scholar and is able to see the big picture, unlike his bretheren who are consumed with their passions and prejudices. When you have great lords like Glorfindel and beings like Gandalf referring to him for counsel you know he is special
I think you make a great point. On the one hand, his human half may be less haughty (parallels with Spock and his human half), which gives him a different perspective. Also, having his two feet planted in different worlds may have made him accustomed to seeing things from two different perspectives, broadening his viewpoint. It also makes me wonder: is Spock just Space Elrond?
@@SantomPh he also learning under someone like Gil-Galad, ofcourse he would know to use his head before his heart
He’s also raised by and alongside Noldor. First Maglor and Maedhros, who had great friendship with dwarves, then Gil-Galad and also Celebrimbor of Eregion. The Noldor and dwarves always had an ironclad friendship from the FA right until the third where the last Noldor leave Middle Earth. The dwarves’ bad blood was always with the Sindar, and later with Silvan elves who are close kin to the Sindar. This is an important distinction to make.
Gandalf: "You two should be friends"
Legolas and Gimli: "We took that one personally"
“Pointy eared leaf lovers”
- Dwarves from DRG
ROCK AND STONE!
A little out of the topic, but it's interesting how the humans have a far more healthy relationship with the dwarves, than they have with their actual siblings.
When Men awoke, the first being to meet them was Melkor (Morgoth) and this time there was no Oröme to guide them away.
A little late to the party (as usual but I always finished well), I think you're right on topic: All of Tolkien's writings are fantastic allegories to the real-world. The kindness to strangers vs. meanness to one's relatives.
I think it's in large part because the dwarves usually stay in their mountains and don't compete with the men over the plains.
@@MrMarinus18 And, unlike elves, dwarves don't look down on men. Not considering temselves as superior to them, but as equals.
@@MrMarinus18 and the dwarves are just good trading parnters with humans we pay in food and they give us great riches worth many times what we gave and both sides call it a steal as dwarves do not have the skills or desire for animal husbandry or good farming skills
This was a great macroscopic review of the various troubles between these two races. I knew of all of them but not in their connections. This helped me get a better long-term understanding and how the immortality of the elves helped hinder time healing all wounds.
I remember when I read Lord of the Rings for the first time I got angry at how elves treated Gimli. How could me so arrogant and close-minded when they have lived so much and were so wise, but later Galadriel put them in their place by treating Gilmi way better.
Good thing you didn't read The Hobbit first. The elves of Mirkwood were downright grumpy by comparison.
@@loka7783 Yeah it's true I have read it after Lord of the Rings. Also, Thingol from Silmarillion was an arrogant prick. When I read the scene who was killed by the dwarfs my reaction was, f around find out.
Hopefully this video corrected your ignorance a little.
That is one thing I hate in the movies, it is that they try to make the elves look all cool and great while the dwarves as a joke. It is like the hobbit movie and even lord of the rings movie was done by a elf. I read the hobbit first so I have a soft spot for the dwarves. They were like the main characters along with Bilbo and Gandalf. They were also awesome and powerful and loved their adventure and the elves of Mirkwood was awful. However it was funny that the prisons were so comfortable and Bilbo says being in the prison was even better at times than the journey because of the food and comfort.@@loka7783
@@thanosandnobill3789 They thought they deserved to steal a Silmaril, dude...
Legolas - the most unbothered and friendly elf in 6,000 years
'...when the dwarves awakened evil in the mountains.'
'The dwarves did not ,create the evil.'
'I said not so...but evil came.'
This whole background between the dwarves and elves just makes the friendship that emerged between Legolas and Gimli all the more wonderful. If we could all set aside "group think" and interact with others as individuals like that the world would be a much better place.
Basically, 1 Silmaril + 1 Nauglamir + 1 Oathbreaking + a number of Murders = Eternal Enmity
Clearly the elves are jealous of the Dwarven beard. Do people not know this?
😂
It takes thousands of years for Elves to grow one😂
They just need a Belt of Dwarvenkind.
Jealous? I admit, I've always wanted such a lush carpet to walk on, but certainly not to wear on my face.
@@VegetoStevieD Ever use a scarf in cold places? Dwarves haven't... 😁
I can’t for the life of me read most of Tolkien’s works such as the Silmarillion, but I make up for it by watching your videos and jotting down notes like it’s a class. I love exploring this complex fantasy world and your videos are incredibly well made and beautiful. I get lost for hours in them.
Now for the Nauglimír.
In many ways, this story is the tragic climax of all three “Great Tales”. Beren and Lúthien retrieve a Silmaril that causes more grief than light-with Húrin’s later travels bleeding into the fall of Gondolin and Doriath. So, without the Eärendil story, the trilogy each ends with Morgoth triumphant.
I think it might be possible that the actions of the dwarves in Menegroth were more a result of seeing the Silmaril rather than the Nauglamír. If course they were attached to this great creation of their ancestors and, being master artisans themselves, they undoubtedly recognised the Silmaril as the greatest of all gems, stirring up jealousy and greed. But I think it's also likely that they came under the Doom of Mandos (which would always cause distrust, discontent and betrayal) by wanting to possess it. Thingol too brought himself and his realm under the doom of Mandos by asking Beren for a Silmaril, even though he was not a Noldo, and it is said in the Silmarillion that possessing a Silmaril or even wanting to possess it would have catastrophic consequences. In a sense, the Silmaril were truly "cursed" objects, being among the most beautiful things in Arda but holding a terrible fate for everyone who came into contact with them. Even for Earendil and Elwing, despite the fact that their Silmaril helped them to get to Aman.
One other event is described in The Hobbit chapter 8 "Flies and Spiders" which reads : In ancient days they (the elves of Mirkwood) had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they
accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what is their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them
to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay."
At least the Elves were legitimately embarrassed about the Petty-Dwarf incident.
This is one of your best videos yet! It was very well done and I really enjoyed watching this summary of the Elf vs. Dwarf feud in the Tolkien legendarium. Bravo!
Kudos for the amount of research & detail that goes into making these profile videos. Really enlivens my enjoyment of the legendarium!! Thanks!!!
Imagine asking for someone to spray paint your car and they demand the car then stab you upon completion
They like to betray for greed and unleash Balrogs n' stuff. What's the problem? Gosh.
Or....ask "Who wrote the story " meaning, is there another version to that point of view? Or did Tolkien provide two views, but we focus only on the elf version?
@@deborahborlase7100 Yeah no, the Dwarves were in the wrong.
I could watch your videos all day long! Best LOTR content on the internet no doubt. Can’t wait for you to hit 1M!! Deserve every sub
I like Robert's interpretation that to label the dwarves as digging "too greedily and too deep" is unfair and likely due to the histories of Middle Earth coming mostly from elves. They had no reason to know there was a Balrog under their feet and had been mining there for millennia. Not just for their benefit, but also the elves and men who coveted mithril as well. If you have the only access to the the only known veins of the greatest material in the world, why would you stop digging it out? Dwarves were doing exactly what they were made to do.
It's also funny to me that the elves are mad that the dwarves awakened the balrog while mining the mithril that the elves wanted. It was the elves fighting with the Valar against Melkor, dwarves weren't involved, so was partially their responsibility for letting any balrogs escape to begin with.
Thanks
If you’re short, hairy, constantly doing hard labour and getting your sh*t gobbled up by giant flying lizards you’d hate people who are tall, pretty, immortal and galavanting about talking about trees also
That’s the problem with the petty dwarves, they have no discernment, just rage, greed, and victimhood.
@@maggiesamson337Shut the stone up, Knife ear.
Loved how Legolas and Gimli forming a friendship was in a way their own arc. Even though Tolkien wasn't meaning this to be an allegory I can easily apply this to the idea of all humans of different races forming friendships with each other for the betterment of the world and themselves.
This is one of the best videos ever! Thank you for the deep dive into Canon Lore
I haven't donated in a while 😢😔, but I will be after this one. The way you tied everything together from the 1st Age, 2nd Age friendship between Dwarves and Elves, and 3rd age "current"events in LOTR, it came together very, very well.
I think the elves see the dwarves as obsessed with their treasures and gold to the point they are corruptible and unreliable, so consider them a lesser race. All while ignoring the misdeeds of their fellow elves and the various bouts of madness, kin-slayings and betrayals they waged against their own kind.
Nice video, lots of work went into it clearly and your voice is pleasant to listen to.
After hearing what Thingol said to the dwarves, about them personally and their people, their violent reaction is a little more understandable. Still an evil act and primarily for that cursed rock, yes, but his total lack of diplomacy made things much worse.
Mim has done a lot of good since the days of Turin. He's been a patron of this channel for quite a while, helping fund these videos. Lol. 😂
Thank you @Nerdoftherings for another fascinating and interesting video ☺️👍👏
Congratulations, love your work. Love the world of Tolkien and you explain it so well. Your the best.
If Pipe-Weed existed in the first age, Morgoth woulda been chilling in Angband laughing it up with Sauron as they watched the free people’s of Middle Earth ruin themselves with conflicts like these. In fact Morgoth woulda been so out of it he will have said that meant for the Silmaril to be stolen and that was his plan all along for the elves and dwarves to screw each other over.
A good origin story for the emnity between the two races. I gotta admit though the more I learn of Thingol the less goodwill I have towards him. He was kinda asking for it and I wonder what Melian even saw in him.
Maybe Thingol was a good elf to begin with but became prideful overtime. Melian being wiser probably did keep him in check without usurping his authority and headship.
Thingol and Melian met each other before the years of the trees even started, they would have been together for thousands of years. You'd know someone pretty well after being in a committed relationship with them for that long, you'd be aware of their flaws and positives.
Considering that Tolkien spelled it out in an appendix that it was some sort of "Nicotiana," they probably wouldn't have chilled much. Peter Jackson either didn't read that, or didn't care.
@@Lenel_Devel Thingol and Melian met in 'Year of the Trees' 1130, per the Annals of Aman.
I do wonder if Celeborn had outright refused the Fellowship entry, if Galadriel would have overruled him. Didn't Galadriel far "out-rank" Celeborn? She was the grandchild of both Finwë and Olwë. Wasn't she, if not the most powerful, one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth at the time? Of course, she wouldn't shame her husband Celeborn into submission in public, but I have no doubt that behind closed doors that she, who was born in Valinor, who defended her mother's kin in the first Kinslaying, who helped lead the throng across the Helcaraxë, would have insisted in no uncertain terms, that the Fellowship be housed, healed, and aided.
She would've gently advised him to reconsidered
Celeborn and Galadriel ruled together, but everyone knew she was the greater Elf. Celeborn and Galadriel did discuss the Fellowship as Haldir delayed them, and Elrond sent messages to help their case. It's not like Galadriel slapped her husband down
Thanks again for another great video
One lives in treehouses and the other favors axes. It's pretty easy to see how things could get out of hand quickly.
Celeborn keeping a 6000 year grudge is insane. And a testament to the hubris of the elves.
Really? I never realize dwarves fought for Sauron...was that the only time?
In the memory of the Westlands, yes it is only during the height of Sauron's Dominion (SA 3319 - 3441), that we see Dwarves fight for both the Dark Lord and the Free People's.
They are mentioned in the history of the War of the Last Alliance and the Downfall of Sauron in SA 3441. It can be assumed that most who fought for Sauron were from the Houses of the Eastern Dwarves. For all Dwarves of Durin's Folk and the Western Houses fought against Sauron.
That was an unexpected treat! Thank you sir!!!
YES!! One of my favorite things about LOTR it was always hilarious to me how the dwarves hate the elves
Clearly Tolkien was a historian for this world he made
Very exhaustive and time effective, bravo!
i like to imagine that every instanse started with good intentions but the stubborness of dwarfs combined with the coldness of elves when they are angry...led to some...misscommunications
In the Music of the Ainur, each Ainu weaves music through melodies from the part of Eru's mind. The dwarves that Aulë created is also a tune he added to the music. In this context, the dwarves are again a product of Eru's mind. Aulë (as Eru told Melkor) is just an instrument here. So the conflict between dwarves and elves is a reflection of Eru's mental imbalance.
Like your pun on the word "instrument"
In the Silmarillion when Aule created the dwarves, Illuvatar chided him and Aule was going to destroy the dwarves. Illuvater reluctantly 'accepted' them, but said their would 'Strife between the Elves and Dwarves'. (Not exact wording, but years since i read it).
Tolkien has to get his dwarves in there because they appear, like the elves, mysteriously and randomly in ancient mythology. The "secretive people' as he said.
His whole joy or genius was fleshing that out. I think as successfully and memorably as his elves.
The "O ye of uncouth race..." speech by Thingol was written by Christopher Tolkien, it turns out. He admitted it to Verlyn Flieger when she challenged him on it.
Sort of.
CT repurposed what Tinwelint said to Urin:
"Yet what is it to me-and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalië? Lo! in Palisor my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke."
BoLT, Turambar and the Foaloke
Something that goes unremarked is that these races had separate interests. The elves tended to be woodlands beings. They were scholars and scientists. More of an Air tribe. Dwarves were more likely to be miners and Metallurgists and engineers. An Earth people. There was crossover to be sure, but still some of their misunderstandings resulted from these natural inclinations. Humans tended to be farmers and more Jacks of all Trades. I also believed they dominated maritime pursuits. Alas, lack of understanding often leads to indemnity.
I think the Teleri were still considered superior mariners over Men.
0:53 got that right. Writing my own book, i love the elves but even though i don't particularly like the short dudes it gives bad vibes to have two enemies of one enemy hating each other, and this I am not taking this idea for my book (as I have done a lot) 😁
Hell yeah dude, when do you think you're gonna be done with your book?
@@rickeyheard4454 ok first I'm a girl (but you probably didn't know that cause Im using my dad's phone) I appreciate that someone won't laugh at me cause I'm eleven, and I'm actually working on four books! An entire series, but please don't say things like h_ll here I'd rather not learn bad stuff but if I ever do publish these, look for me under the name of Liset
So the animosity between elves and dwarves effectively boils down to "a member of one race makes some insult to some member(s) of the other, who then escalate and exacerbate the situation" repeated with tedious regularity over tens of thousands of years
Murder the King.Plunder the Halls.Massacre the Folk.Steal the Holy Jewel.Really? What a Tool You ARE.
"...the Children of My *Adoption* and the Children of My *Choice* ..." Well, THERE'S your problem right there, Dad!
The true reason is Iluvatar. As he said to Aulë upon deciding to allow the Dwarves to exist: "But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them, and they shall be to thee as children; and often strife shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice."
So in reality, all the conflicts between Elves and Dwarves are simply born out of this proclamation from Iluvatar.
In the Silmarillion, when Aule created the Dwarves and Illuvatar wanted Aule to destroy them, Illuvatar heard the Dwarves beg for mercy and changed his mind. Iluvatar then said to Aule 'There shall be strife between the firstborn and the Dwarve's'. (Cannot rem. exact qoute).
Nauglamir had a magic that made it weightless on the wearers kneck & once the Silmarill was added it stirred hearts to flame…. That Silmarill was worn by Earendill as he finally made it West.
This is my fav video of the channel.
Hands down.
In 'Concerning... "The Hoard"' Tolkien provides an alternate viewpoint where the conflict between Thingol and the dwarves is initiated by Thingol reneging on his agreed payment to the dwarves, and, enraged, they leave unpaid.
It's an interesting view that's closer to the original found in The Book of Lost Tales. There, the dwarves complete the necklace, then demand a payment that Tinwelint (earlier version of Thingol) finds outrageous, so he has them whipped and sent away with a paltry sum.
Since in universe The Hobbit is written by Bilbo, could it maybe be interpreted the lack of hostility between dwarves and elves is more Bilbo’s lack of appreciation and understanding at the time for the ancient feud?
I'm sure the fact that, during the creation, the dwarves accidentally woke up first when that honor was supposed to go to the elves, plays a large role in their initial deep-seated dislike for each other.
“I have not heard it said it was the fault of the Elves.” I like to think Legolas was picking his teeth when he said that. Lol
Whenever I think of the hatred between Elves and Dwarves, I always remember Elu Thingol and his sickest of burns that he laid on the dwarves seconds before they killed him.
"How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, who's life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted 'ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke."
Doesn't seem like much on it's face but when you read into it you can see clearly for a proud and stubborn folk enchanted by the Silmaril it would be words to be killed for.
Scum that should have been Hunted on Sight.
Asking this question for me is like asking why human beings hate people that aren't of a similar skin tone or are just different in general. But hating people different than yourself is a tale as old as time.
But in case all else fails, blame Morgoth.
I wonder if Tolkien scholars or aficionados have debated this matter when it comes to the actions and free will of the races. On one hand the elves, dwarves and men have screwed themselves and each other so much that it’s no wonder Morgoth spent a lot of his time sitting on his ass.
Yet on the other hand, it is stated without a doubt and in fine Silmarillion print that Morgoth is responsible for seeing discord and chaos through the music…which in turn is done so because Eru Illuvatar said so.
Can it really truly be the fault of the three races then for all the crap they did in their self destruction or was all this really part of Morgoth’s design and Eru’s plan?
And people are incredibly naive if they think this would ever change. Racism is engraved in us. When we meet aliens for the first time, whether they would be more or less developed than us, we would redirect our racism towards them.
I don't think dwarves commit like 80% of violent crime in Lorien though.
@myriadmediamusings
Given Tolkien's strong catholicism, I'd suggest the answer would be that perhaps despite Eru's plan, all the beings ultimately have their own free will - and that Eru's "plan" is more or less simply prophecy
The hate of Elves and Dwarves to each other have at least a solid foundation and reasons. Sometimes it's the Elves with their pride over other races and sometimes a mistake or emotional rollercoaster of both.
Our hate about skin color is mostly a baseless nonsense crap that were born from idiots.
Honestly that's it, that's the whole history about this whole skin color racism BS.
There's something so profound in Galadriel giving gimli her hair. Fëanor being dead millennias earlier, her having assisted literally all the world's horrors and sorrow, those hair represents the ages-wise declaration of everyone fundamentally being equal in the fight against malice.
It really is a strong message
Don't forget Elves do not 'die' as such. They are in the halls of Mandos as spirit for a while, then re incarnated in the flesh.
So Feanor 'being' incarnated and finding out Galadrial gave a 'gasp' Dwarf some of her hair would have really irked him. Lol.
Nauglamir had a magic that made it weightless on the wearers kneck & once the Silmarill was added it stirred hearts to flame….
To say "necromancer" in 1937 likely only refers to sciomancy, but the repulation that goes with it sets the stage of the world. Even before the legendarium was tied to the Hobbit, Tolkien set up that the adventure is just a part of a larger world with larger threats.
With his other works in mind, death is a part of the natural order of Middle Earth. To go against that is to defy Eru Iluvatar. By calling him Necromancer, it's giving a glimpse at his nature/morality, without describing his specific atrocities.
Great video as always!
What I find incredible about Tolkien's writings is not so much the rivalry between dwarves and elves, but how humans and elves get along. You would think that the arrogance of the elves and the greed of the humans would cause a lot of friction, but in Tolkien's stories the two races get along very well. Even the sons of Feanor, the most arrogant elves, treated humans well and gave them land. Elves throughout the history of middle-earth have treated humans very well, and humans have almost always been on the elves' side (The exception being Numenor's envy of the elves' immortality in latter days).
I hate to be that guy, but in the Hobbit film, Thranduil didn’t want to attack Erebor for its gold, he wanted his dead wife’s necklace which the Dwarves claimed as a spoil and refused to return to the significant other. The extended version of the Hobbit movies are so much better, especially for Battle of the Five Armies, where a lot of context is missing. I mean, Peter Jackson didn’t wanna make a third film, only two, but he was forced to due to studio intervention.
Excellent video as always!
I wanna see movies like - "War of Elves and Dwarves", "Angmar", "Morgoth", "Numenor", etc.
They can literally make movies out of this and people would love it. Of course, if they stay true to the lore.
They love money, we love Tolkien, make movies!
At one time before the First War, there was a covenant between to Elves, Dwarves and Human that was more or less an alliance to help each other in time of war. The elves broke the pact after the first war and refused to help the dwarves.
We all know its because Gimli was jealous of Legolas' hair!
The elves of Beleriand where savage
If I had to pick one, I'd favor the killing of King Thingol the most for the divide and tension between the dwarves and elves of Middle-Earth
Nice video. Great Chanel overall. I was wondering if you could make a video about the war of the last alliance. Thanks.
This comment probably wont be read, and forgive my ignorance. But in LOTR FOR when the fellowship reaches the hidden doors into Moria, my 8 year old son asked me why the dwarves would carve words in Elvish, if they hate each other. And why is it that Gandalf, not Legolas who answers Frodo's question as to "what is the elvish word for friend?". Thank you!
interesting... especially the Elvish writing to access Moriah.
Good point
Love the map of Eriador and Rhovanion with the correct Second Age names.
I'm very happy to see you're getting more and more high profile sponsors. Well- deserved!
If an Elf and a Dwarf, 2 ancient blood enemies can become life long Brothers, than there is hope. I think the real world could take a page from that! 🖖😁🤘🇨🇦
For Galadriel to reward a Dwarf which deepest of desire was the adoration of Galadriel herself, a kind which Eru himself said would be at odds, noted dwarves desire were towards objects rather then that of any creature, i think Galadriel knew that he was the true breaker of a cycle and the love in his heart was probably the purest of any dwarf she ever witnessed.
I just love Gimli and Legolas so much. ❤
Great video on a great topic
Next please do the story of Bard
Love these types of videos
Thousands of years later, Galadriel is still telling Feanor to eff off.
I wonder what would have happened if durin’s bane had left kazad dum and joined Sauron
I love how they both have a common enemy and always group to fight dark forces.
What I never really understood - as the Balrog was created by Morgoth - why the elves did not aid the dwarves in their battle with the Balrog as it was also a threat to them. A balrog was only second to Sauron in power and evil.
Great video!
16:35 By the Eru this art and those eyes i just got flabbergasted.
The dwarves have always been looked down upon…
I always found it fascinating that the dwarves were outside of Illuvitar's divine plan for Arda since he didn't create them. Perhaps that's why not only elves, but men and other races don't generally speak or think well of dwarves in Tolkien's various works because they sense the "otherness" about them. In fact, by their very nature dwarves are not likable but argumentative, slovenly, and greedy. Actually, most things that live underground aren't very appealing, including the dwarves. The dwarves' un-likeability is the biggest reason I think The Hobbit book and films don't work nearly as well as the LOTR. Yes, the dwarves seek to return to their mountain home, but a LOT of that motivation has to do with getting their gold back. Since their goal is largely a self-serving and materialistic one involving money it's hard to root for them unlike Frodo's selfless goal of saving the world in the LOTR. The dwarves will always be the outsiders in Arda.
everytime when i see the elves and dwarves together it will always remind me of gimli and legolas's friendship
the whole elves hunting the petty dwarves thing is one of Tolkiens few missteps imo. Elves had already traveled a massive proportion of middle earth and lived long lives from our perspective whilst under the direct and semi direct influence of Orome when they first encountered the petty dwarves. Outside of Melkor and Orome they’d never meet any other bipedal, speaking, garment and tool equipped, organized creatures of any kind… unless they’d already educated the ents? Anyways so they come across these advanced creatures for the first time and thought… “oh look at those little creatures with axes and clothing, they remind me of deer and beavers! Even after killing the first odd few and surly investigating their kill, still they weren’t like hmmm… strange that these game animals were coordinating with one another via language? Kinda a silly stretch imo idk.
Besides do we think those elves were taking “game” and not respectfully utilizing it? Do elves kill animals on mass and not use them for pelts or food? Did the elves eat those petty dwarves? Whole thing is conceptually lazy imo.
Good work ❤
Gandalf was on to something, both sides were at fault. But I think I'd put the blame on the dwarves if I had to pick a side.
I agree. It's easier to slander an Elve than to spend a thousand years trying to understand their view.
Murder the King.Massacre the Folk,Plunder the Hall.Steal the Holy Jewel.Ya Think So?