I lived in Alaska for 37 years, no matter what you're hunting there are Grizzlies or Brown Bears everywhere, not to mention large Black Bears. I wouldn't have wasted my time and endangered my life by using a 6.5 Creedmoor..
@@johnganshow5536 Agreed. If I was up there I would seriously look at 338WM. How do you think a semi-auto tactical shotgun loaded with slugs or #00 Buck would hold up for a close in encounter with a large bear?
@@johnganshow5536 I love my 6.5, but I am in an area where the biggest game is white tail. I sure as hell wouldn't be in Alaska with a 6.5. What do yo think the minimum caliber would be out there?
Ron, you are one of the few who actually understands ballistics. I completely agree with your comment about using the correct bullets for task. I have heard a lot of people trash talk a cartridge just because they were using a bear bullet on deer or vice versa.
With the aid of an exterior ballistics calculator, he understands the easy part well enough; but his focus on terminal energy is an indicator that he doesn’t understand the hard part, terminal performance, very well. Bullet energy is not well correlated with bullet wounding performance, so if you are modeling wounding with just bullet energy, then you are setting up yourself (and your viewers) for real world confusion and disappointment. Ron recovers somewhat towards the end of this video with his discussion of bullet construction, mass and momentum, but the hints toward a proper wounding model aren’t really sufficient to guide informed decision making.
@@markhamstra1083 Yes. When the energy at the target is the same for 2 different size bullets, their weights have already been factored into the reported result. What I think he meant about wanting the heavier bullet, was that the larger one releases that energy easier then the smaller one, usually with a larger wound channel. Another way to say it is, for 2 bullets to arrive with the same energy, the light one has to be moving much faster.
Good review Ron, thanks. I live in the Yukon, and my 300WM does it for all the game we have here, from bison, grizzly, elk, moose, caribou, and more. Cheers
Looking into beginning my Hunting journey. Living in Cali, what Cartridge is great for everything here, plus big game out of state such as elk, caribou, moose? I keep seeing .300Win, i just dont want overkill for California sized game
Bro that is incredible, I didn't know there was a bullet that high of a b.c. for that caliber! That's amazing. Wouldn't be anything on this continent you couldn't put in the freezer.
@@itisfinished4U Yeah and it was amazing to load those rounds, I remember the projectile itself was as long as a loaded .357 magnum, lol. A 180 grain .308 FMJ projectile looked short and chubby next to it. Recoil was less than .308 because the rifle was 9lbs and had a muzzle brake. At 100yds I shot a group of one ragged hole with it.
@@osogrande2 you say that like every shooter only shoots 3 rounds a year through a hunting rifle. Believe it or not some people like to practice with their rifles to be more accurate, which you’re not going to do only shooting a handful of times a year with a hugely recoiling rifle that makes you flinch
Good comparison! You might have used the 300 WM with 200 ELD-X. It would have proven your point even better. I've used the 300 WM for 47 years and it's never let me down with coyotes, pronghorn, deer, elk and caribou. Your comment about momentum is so valid and most You Tubers don't mention or appreciate its significance.
momentum is P=MV. It is what is used to calculate the energy numbers in the ballistic charts he is reading off of..... What he is really trying to describe is a bullets ability to transfer said energy to an object. The only thing that matters then is friction, which is determined by the targets physical makeup, and the bullets characteristics such as size, spin, velocity and profile. The Creedmoor is already at a major disadvantage going head to head with a larger magnum round with at least a 1/3 more powder in its charge and that isn't enough for you that you have to imbalance it even more with a top end projectile? Might as well just put the WM up against the 300PRC if you are going to use the projectile made for it.
Where I hunt, 300yrd is a long shot, I'll stick with the proven performance of the 300wm. It's proven to me to consistently anchor Moose every time,.... the CM, stick to the target range...
I started handloading for the .300WM almost 30 years ago. I went through all the reloading books I could and decided on the 180 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and have never seen the need to change. I load that bullet over a healthy charge of Reloder 22 and get outstanding velocity and most of all accuracy.
75 grains RL22 under a 180 grain BT is my generic go-to load for 300 Win Mag and it never disappoints. Accurate and absolutely drops animals in their tracks with a boiler room shot.
Really like your videos Ron! I've shot 14 bull elk in 20 years with a 300 win mag-200 gr Nosler partition-range 10 ft to 300 yds. 6.5 creed is a target round-300WM is pure hunting round-no comparison but a lot of fellers don't realize that . Thanks for All the good info-keep it up pard!
Excellent video Ron. Personally I would not feel comfortable shooting at game beyond 300 yards. There are just too many unknown factors (like crosswind variation downrange) and I always want to ensure a clean kill. Also, no matter what cartridge you're shooting, you always have more energy the closer you are to your target. Hunting should be hunting, not military sniping.
@@chrisacd5895 Most of my deer and elk hunting has been in the dense rainforests of western Oregon, where you just don't get shots past 100 yards. My first deer was a Columbia blacktail at 15 yards that I could barely see through the brush, and I got a Roosevelt elk at about 30 yards. The longest range kill I ever made was a whitetail in eastern Washington at about 150 yards. So, I admit my long range hunting experience is really limited.
@@KevinSchwinkendorf my point is 300 meters , not yards, is extremely easy using a 300 win mag ..cross wind isn't a problem at all shooting game at 300 meters with a 300 mag. ... Tested my mates 300 mag and at 400 meters hitting targets is very easy.. . ... . .a steady rest is all that is required at 300...... 300m is relatively easy for me using my 3006. running a 2.5x16 Bushnell elite mill dot reticle....180 boat tails running hard... Many deer,, sambar, many... Reloaded for 17, 22-250, 220, 270, 3006, 378 wetherby, and 460 wetherby.... . Heads up smiles and remember, while there is lead in the air, there is hope.... Hehehehehe...
Never owned a Creedmoor but I have been in love with a 6.5x55 for almost 40 years. Works like magic on deer without the massive meat destruction that I have seen from my more powerful 30 calibers and magnums. That said if I got an elk or moose tag I would opt for a 300 Win mag any day. Just choose the right tool for the job and anything larger than deer a 30 cal (or 35 caliber) comes into it's own IMHO.
A reasonable approach. My .300 win mag is my favourite all purpose all range all north american game cartridge. It’s certainly not needed in most applications but it doesn’t hurt anything either and I like it and shoot it well and it inspires confidence. I also have 5 other centerfires and they all have their uses and some are better tools for specific jobs than my .300, but the .300 works for pretty much all jobs. I also shoot and handload for a .243, 257 weatherby, 270 Winchester, 8x57 mauser, and .358 Norma magnum. All of these could be and have been used to kill moose, even big bear. But for those special hunts you don’t get too often I’m bringing the .358 Norma. If I ever get drawn for pronghorn the .257 weatherby is the obvious choice. I could go on…they’re all perfect for something.
If you hand load you can that 6.5 Swede out perform the Creedmoor, especially with the heavier bullets. I have one of the Carl Gustaf M96's Sporterized by Kimber. Super shooter!
@@davewinter2688 cool rifle! Mine aren’t quite as pretty as kimber probably but for old school mauser type actions I have an old husqvarna m98 in 8x57 and a BRNO ZG-47 circa 1956 rebarreled to .358 Norma.
Kudos to you dispelling the myth. I knew it sounded funny. My first custom was a 6.5x55 improved on a Mauser action. I loved that rifle and miss it greatly.
Kimber put some rifles together from sweedish mauser actions about 20 years ago. Ed Shilen made some of the new barrels I understand. Might be able to find a few of these out on the used market if you want another rifle in 6.5x55
200 grain 300 WM Terminal Ascent BC is .608. Another jump in long range retained energy. I never heard the creed is more powerful than the 300WM and enjoyed your presentation Ron.
@jeffovington6375 around my campfire we are talking about dropping big bulls with our .300wm and my wife and kids are hitting targets with the 6.5. not even in the same convo
Depends on what I'm hunting. For whitetails and such, pretty much anything works. If I'm going for bigger stuff, there's a .338WinMag (I don't have a .300WinMag).
My go to for anything is my Winchester Model 70 in .30-06, but maybe my Marlin Model 336 in .30-30 for western Columbia blacktail in the thick rainforests of northwest Oregon (my first deer was with that rifle when I was 14 - I'm 64 now). But I bought my .338 Win. Mag. for Alaska Yukon moose. I haven't had a chance to go yet, but that's my last bucket list goal before I die.
I run both, and I love both of them. I have a Tikka T3X CTR in 6.5cm and Sako S20 in .300 WM. I wouldn’t get rid of either one, and they both do great for my hunting here in the Deep South.
Both great choices. Finns sure do make a fantastic rifle. Have a T3 in .308 myself. Sadly in my area, ranges only go out to 100 yards. That is beyond boring with my rifle lol. A total waste of its potential, so I only take it with me when I can stretch its legs on private property.
@@CrashRacknShoot I am blessed with state sponsored shooting ranges that are over 200 yards and a few private ranges over 1000 yards all within 20 mins of my home. Tikka/Sako actions are now my favorites…completely pulled me away from the Remington 700 and Browning X Bolts.
@@jacobivy2854 that's the life right there. Yeah, if I felt like dragging my ass a few hours north, I could stretch a few hundred more yards but just can't justify the time very often. But I think it's about time I took her out of the safe for more than a cleaning. If it had puppy dog eyes, it'd be trying to use them lol.
Woowee,,,,,,Sako !!!! Always wanted a Sako, or a Saur, but alas, those babies have always been way out of my financial reach. 700BDL has had to carry the freight for me and have to say, I'm never disappointed . CAVU
I love the arguments about one cartridge vs. another at 600 or 800 yards, usually between shooters who can't keep all their shots on a volleyball at 100 yards, if you get them off a bench!
i live in NE montana...... not all of MT is mountains, out here its FLAT AF!!! . so 100 yards is pretty rare to shoot at deer at..... most shots a 200-300 so ive gotten pretty good with my old ruger m77 mk2 308 with a simple nikon 3x9-40 and a harris bi-pod . i just LOVE that bi-pod..... has helped me make accurate shots that i NEVER would have been able to off a fence post or free hand . . but while i may take a shot on a wounded deer at 500...... im going to get closer for a first shot 250-300 isnt REALLY that far with the right caliber/bullet....as long as the wind is not blowing 50+mph like it likes to up here.... . but ya.... people spend 1000s on a "1000 yard gun".... but dont spend the money on ammo and the time at the range its usually the old farts with 1 SIMPLE OLD rifle they have used for the last 20+ years that can shoot . i watched a dude miss a deer at 35 yards with a NICE high dollar rifle with adjustable everything, a suppressor, HUGE scope, ETC i just sat their and laughed.... . i had a deer in the back i killed at 200 with an iron sight M91/30 from 1935....i got back when they were 100 dollars (including the bayonet and cleaning kit)
Don't have a dog in the fight regarding the two cartridges, but it's hard not to shoot on a bench when that's the only thing that's provided. I'm trying to find an area or club to shoot at, so I won't be restricted at the closest range.
It always amazes me how far people can shoot. I don't have a bench, so my most stable position is resting on the back of a folding camp chair... but honestly, in field conditions with a 3x scope, if I have to shoot standing up without a tree to rest against, I am probably not going to shoot a further than 100 yards away. The gun just moves too much. Good on you guys that can do it better.
@@Daekar3 I have a bench and have had one for many years. Now I have a folding one much easier to haul around than my old hand made one. I always use a bench to make sure the firearm is sighted in at whatever range I see fit but that's because then I know if I miss a shot it's me not the accuracy of the rifle or a particular load. Every firearm I own is more accurate than I am.
I have both but would always prefer the 300wm for elk over the needmore at any distance. For deer, might as well use the 6.5CM at realistic hunting distances.
@@dennistaylor6486 270 weatherby mag. Buddy has a matk v love that gun its sweet but it will knock your shoulder a little. Love my 25-06. My 308 is more than enough for anything else. Both are easier to shoot. Keep the mags. Not really necessary.
@@shanehebert396 Do you find written comprehension difficult? Let me explain for the less than mentally agile. He doesn't eat paper 'coz he doesn't shoot at it, thus correctly inferring that the 6.5 CM was designed primarily as a LR target rifle. Of course you can hunt animals with it, but it is limited compared to a 300 WM. So not weird at all.
Love it. So many people are obsessed with the 6.5 creedmoor when in fact it is not the kudos of cartridges. It is just something new with a lot of hype which has generated a lot of sales without strong justification.
🤣 Reminds me when they tried to convince us that the 6.8 Western would "outperform" the 7mm Remington Magnum! ☹ But, companies and people never lie (🤥), do they? 😜
I guess if you want to get into the numbers 175 grain bullet with a BC of 620 shooting at 2970 ft per second should outperform the 7 mag and the two calibers Ron's talking about if not be right there with the 300 win mag
🕵️♂️ The 175 grain Nosler ABLR 7mm bullet, moving at the same velocity of 2,970 ft/s, has a higher B.C. of 0.648 compared to the 165 grain 270 bullet of 0.620! So not only does the 7mm bullet shoot flatter, but it hits harder, because it is 10 grains heavier! 🤪 So, Your claims that it shoots flatter is False! Let alone that the 7mm Remington Magnum can push the 168 grain Nosler ABLR bullet (B.C. of 0.616) even faster (Approaching 3,100 ft/s) and 3 grains heavier! So, once again, you are Wrong Andrew and Carl! 🤥
.27 Nosler enters the chat 🤣🤣🤣 Seriously, .270 Winchester will do what you need will about $22 to $40 a box (roughly 1/2 the price of the fancy stuff).
@@exothermal.sprocket @@exothermal.sprocket you can't always get that close. But if you are hunting mountain goats 300 wm may not be good enough either. You're talking about a tiny percent of scenarios. Same for antelope in Wyoming. 300 wm may not be enough for. 500 yards in crosswinds. Ok, so you run 270 with a long barrel for mountain goats. And 338 Lapua for antelope at long range. . But the other 98 percent of animals can be taken with 6.5 creedmoor.
@@sasquatchrosefarts Consider that some hunters spend many tens thousands of dollars for even a slim chance at getting selected for a specific animal tag, and they go on that once-in-a-lifetime hunt. Whatever situation might present itself is going to be less optimal than most people want to imagine a typical hunt going. In that situation, you want to give yourself every advantage you can regarding rifle, caliber, cartridge, and personal training. If the difference between bagging that trophy you waited half your life to get is a change of cartridge, you'd be stupid not to. How about those other hunters who are forced to let their animal go, or else take a quartering shot at an awkward angle through a bunch of tough bone and muscle, from position about 100 or 200 yards further than initially anticipated? I could think of another hundred scenarios where a larger caliber is more appropriate. How about just the whole ethics of making a sure kill rather than a less than optimal one? Hunters owe it to the management of wildlife to do better than debating over how to optimize a medium caliber for every circumstance "in the lower 48".
I understand the ballistics, great analysis. I've had three separate big game guides ask me what I was shooting, and when I said "300 WSM" they said, "Thank God, I thought you might say 6.5 Creedmoor!"
Good point sir. I hadn’t considered ultra long range shooting at targets/humans. Beyond my scope. My comment only considered hunting applications. The 6.5 compares reasonably in that regard-Hence the mystique of the 264 ballistic coefficient I reckon.
@@holdmyswede It also pushed for the .30 bore to have longer, higher BC projectiles developed for it to exceed 6.5mm and 7mm. Then 7mm got the 195gr Berger EOL. The 220gr and 240gr .308" bullets really pushed the BCs higher, but .300 Win Mag isn't the optimum cartridge and throat for those.
Something else I never considered. Do longer bullets translate into higher BC within a given diameter? The custom barrel chambers make some sense to me then. I seem to remember reading the 300 is limited by a short neck. Well beyond my knowledge base. I grew up hunting whitetail in WV at less than 100 yards. Lived in the Rockies in my 20’s, but still never thought to shoot further than 200 yards or so. In my youth, I thought it was the morale thing to stalk closely to game. Thanks for the knowledge and conversation.
@@holdmyswede Generally yes. That's called sectional density. If you have a really pointy ogive, long shank, and long boat tail, the BC will be higher. Short, football or blunt-nosed bullets with flat bases have low BCs. .30-30 is plenty out East in the thick woods. 7mm Rem Mag has been very popular in the Rockies.
I agree with you Ron. I own both, I shoot and hunt with both. The 6.5 is a antelope, deer round. The 300WM is for elk and moose. I personally find it absurd that anyone but the most skilled would take any shot at game over 300 yards. One question: Have you done anything about meat damage using the larger faster rounds?
Hm. 36% sounds like a lot but all of these calibers are within a potato chip width of each other. Is a 30 cal fmj converting more energy into damage than a 243 jhp? Cartridge matters some. Caliber matters almost naught. Bullet design is where the real differences are found.
@@markjohnson206 The increased size is all the way around the bullet, so that potato chip adds up all the way around the diameter of that bullet. Even if it's not huge.
I own both, but I have never found myself in a situation where I was torn on which one to bring hunting. Maybe if I wanted to deer hunt on Kodiak island or something. For dropping deer on the far side of a bean field, 6.5 all day. Elk across a canyon, definitely the .300
BC makes a difference way earlier than Ron claims. Out of 20’ barrel A 30-06 200 grain ELD-X @2515 ft/s will have 1914 ft-lb at 300 yards. An old fashioned Core-Lokt will only have 1405. in my book 536 ft-lb or 28% more energy at a typical hunting distance is a significant advantage
I agree an disagree to an extent, but personally a 30-06 is happiest with a 165/168 grain bullet and a full case of powder. 2950 fps and accurate well past 1000 yards. No reason to go any heavier.
@@blueridgeboy6791 I agree, if you use a bonded led bullet. For copper I would go lighter. I don‘t like the low 40-60% weight retention of the ELD-X at high velocities. The higher weight gets the speed down to an area of 80% retention while retaining true 30-06 ft-lb levels
@@wadeparker6091 what would be acceptable to you? Only bonded bullets like the Accubond? Honestly I‘d rather have somebody shoot game with an ELD-X which reliably expands down to 1600 ft/s, than have them shoot a too heavy TTSX out of a fancy short barrel with speeds below expansion threshold
I have a couple long range rigs just for fun, and I love it. But they they don't come with me on Big Game hunts. It is easy to get within 300-400 yards, so why would you not want to?
Great info. If 400yds is your max range then pick any of them. I will take the most Accurate rifle/bullet combo of these three samplings. And then if all equal in accuracy I will take a lighter rifle with less recoil. This was eye opening. Thank you for delivering concise and useful info in such a small amount of time. That takes planning, coordination and craftsmanship. You are excellent Mr Spomer
Basic physics- fantastic demonstration on the substantial impact (pardon the pun) of an improved BC and the long range energy of each round. Fascinating.
It doesn't take much energy to punch a hole in paper. That's all I shoot at that distance. Let's not forget the frontal area, or the 210/215 berger or 190 Nosler ABLR.
*Moose all over Scandinavia have succumbed to the 6.5x55.* 6.5's have their place. I have 4 of 6.5's. 6.5 Grendal, 6.5 CM, 6.5x47 Lapua & 6.5x284 Norma. BUT, IMHO none of them are going to out do the 300 Win Mag. While I don't own one, I do have a .300 Wthby. which has produced one shot stops on every game animal that I've harvested with it. But, I do have to say that my 6.5x284 has taken it's fair share of deer... out to 700 yards.
I was talking with a guy in the gun shop on this subject. He made the same claim so I just asked him "So you believe the 6.5 Swedeish Mauser is better than the 300? he laughed and said OG COURSE NOT....
Just love your channel Ron, no BS! Lol.. Ron, I went back to work for Brownells. I'll tell the guys you said hi! I start back next week as I was not ready for retirement yet. Maybe in a few years. We have really upgraded the shop, hope to see ya soon. Great video as usual. Always thumbs up!
I agree that momentum is an underrated and understated aspect of terminal performance. I think if we are going to compare the 6.5 CM to a 300 Win Mag using modern high BC bullets, the 300 is much better served with something in the order of the 212 ELD-X, or much better yet, a 210gr Nosler Accubond Long Range rather than the 178 where the 6.5CM looks like it has a chance a way out there of catching up. With a 212 ELD_X, the BC is .663 and, it's apples to apples and the 6.5CM comes up way short of even being competitive and will never catch the 300.
The problem is many of the old 300 win mag chambers just aren't cut for these bullets. You need to have a chamber throat properly setup for the long high bc bullets just as you need the right twist, it's not universally compatible. Many of these new cartridges similar to old ones are just that, a new spec designed around these modern bullets because just shoving them into an old gun would be either unsatisfactory or dangerous.
I have and love both the 6.5 creedmoor and a 300 Remington Ultra Mag and, at distance, I'll take the 300 Ultra Mag every time, past 300 yds. Took a mule deer in western Wyoming in 2003 at 505 yds with the 300 Ultra Mag. I spent the entire summer on hayfields with shots out to 600 yds, so I was ready for a long shot if it presented itself. People said I was crazy burning that ammo on groundhogs, but it is the only way you will be ready. Practice with a purpose. I've taken dozens of whitetails here in Pennsylvania with the 6.5 creedmoor and 129 gr Hornady interlocks and no problem. But, now I'm fiddling around with my newer 375 Ruger and 270 gr soft points at the same velocity as the 129 gr in the 6.5 creedmoor. Too much for whitetails? Maybe. Fun? You betcha!!!
Years ago, I practiced the same with a Rem 700 Sendaro 25-06 with my handloaded 100 gr Nosler ballistic tips. I had over 800 yrds to shoot from my back deck, I would lay out there shooting ground hogs out to 600 yrds. I shot my largest deer power walking at 483 yrds when he was going through trees and crossed a 60' wide clearing where I was hoping he would cross, he finished his stride and was down.
Some guys think 6" looks like 8" too, doesn't make it so. Guys who get into a pissing contest about which cartridge has the most magic should take a class in physics, the BS floats away in the stream. Good stuff Ron, keep it coming.
Ron, I just cited one of your articles for a paper I just wrote It was about reading a ballistic table. Thank you for giving us so much great information to use.
I love my 6.5 Creedmoor, shooting it more than any other rifle. But never ever use it for hunting. I hunt in heavy wooded areas always wanting a quick kill, my 300 WM or 338 WM my calibers of choice.
Good stuff Ron!! It’s really awesome how the new high b/c bullets perform. They turn the old 300 Win Mag and 6.5x55 into a freight train and make my favorite rifle…. the 7mm Rem Mag into arguably the most versatile rifle on earth ! Appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.
I love your videos Ron! Great breakdown on 2 great cartridges. Like so many others, I have both and like both. If I do a paid hunt out west I grab the 300 with 180 AB’s. Talk to the guides and outfitters. I’ve only hunted out west maybe 10 times but nearly every outfitter wanted a 270Win as a minimum and prefer a 30 cal. Most of them also like to limit shots to under 300 yds. You just showed that at the range most of us consider reasonable on game, the 300 has the clear advantage.
Ron is wrong, "that tip of 180 definitely falls more, one thing is what the tatla says and another is reality". We checked it over and over again with calibers 30 from 308 to 300 rum and wea, they fall more is the reason we use 270. unfortunately I have not been able to experiment with 243, although I admit that I use 223 a lot. I have been so close that I could do it with 22 lr I suppose the 243 will be fine. let me tell you that I have received people with 257 wea that break the tip at short distances due to speed, since my country does not fit anything else from todaynady sst or interlock I have had to copy them with a lathe, that is why they prefer large calibers of 7 mm up, the mass does not tolerate speed, hence the 270 7 rm 30.06 and 300 wm are the 4 kings of the hunt
I believe those v max are the best as far as well controlled expansion and bullet stabilization. I also like a slow burning powder that leaves no space in the casing for consistent fps.
Thanks for presenting this information to your readers. I argue with 6.5CM lovers all the time about it's short comings compared to various 30 caliber bullets. Particularly against the venerable .30-06! If you bring the BC's closer together, run both at SAAMI max pressures, the 06 wins every time. Not by much, but it does out perform! When comparing two different calibers, one must find some common ground between the two and get things on the same page!
The real pro of the creedmoor is when your shoulders as fu,,,ed as mine , ,,the 6.5 is shootable, my beloved o6 is just plain brutal unless I download to the point that the creed just makes more sense. Its 300 savage and creedmoor now I've shot both off my nose, wouldn't even try it with o6 or win mag lol . God bless .
@@allenforaker6720 heard lots of good things about that 260 just never had the pleasure of exposure . Believe it shoots the same bullet as moms 284 and that's a heck of a round . First shortmag .
@@shawntailor5485 Well, since we are both reading this blog, your mom's .284 is 7mm. Not the same as a .260 (6.5mm). A person shoots what works for them, the 6.5CM is a trust worthy cartridge, it just is not magic! When the 6.5/284 started winning long range BR competitions it was because it was just as accurate as the .300WM, and didn't beat the shooter to death while covering a match. Those that like the 6.5CM, more power to them, just don't try to convince me that is better than those cartridges that are tried and true!
I have been two three tracking jobs of wounded whitetail deer and bears with dogs over the past 10 years but have been hunting for 35+ years. The last two times my neighbors some hit a giant and called in the dogs and I asked him what caliber is most common for having to track and the guy before him said the same thing. 6.5 creedmore is ,according to them, the most common cartridge for the dogs to come track. Im not a gun expert but found it interesting they both said the same thing
We see this a lot on our ranches in west Texas. True, majority of them are Creedmor now but not because it doesn’t work. Why we see it the most is because businesses take clients out that have never hunted and that’s the easiest rifle to find along with ammunition. That being said it’s mainly due to inexperienced hunters making bad shots.
Newbie here. I have almost 20 years in the military shooting 5.56 and 7.62, but I’ve never been hunting or gone outside those traditional mil calibers. Videos like this are helping me with my decision. I’m currently in Colorado and I plan on getting into hunting game. It’s long overdue and I think I’ll be going with the 300 WM. Everything I read outside of marketing is pointing in that direction.
@@johncox2865 100% Correct. We need to be the expert marksmans we were as a kids when no soda can was safe no matter the range or condition. A perfect example would be Henry from 9-Hole Reviews and his M24. We can bench race all day about how a 300WM or 338L would be better, but he's running that course better than any of us with that "inferior" 308 rifle. ruclips.net/video/V2fKM8AlNSc/видео.html
I live in Maine and I love my 300wm. I can't see myself shooting at anything over 500 yards away unless it's on a lake and I usually don't hunt kayakers.
Love it Ron! FINALLY someone did an Apples to Apples comparison on the creed!! I don't know if you've done this yet? I'd like to see a true comparison of short action bolt gun vs standard long action!!! I'm thinking 308 vs 06 with the same barrel length!!! Just how much ACTUAL length and weight savings is there??? Thanks keep up the good work!
This makes me curious. I do not shoot 6.5 creedmoor, but once upon a time I shot a lot of 6.5x55 mauser. I found velocity of that round to vary greatly depending on barrel length. I've seen a lot of data suggesting the 143 grain eldx can reach 2700 or even 2800 fps in the creedmoor. Have you chronographed such a bullet from a typical 22 inch sporter length barrel? I could imagine 2600 fps might be closer to the mark. Thank you for the great video Mr. Spomer, entertaining and thought provoking as usual
🙉 🙊 🎯 👍👍 😜 Lmao Being a PROUD Owner of a 300 win mag Browning bar mark ii safari w boss system!! I Have been arguing with my Nephew & cousin about this exact thing!! I Tryed telling them then we went to the south pasture to shoot 800 yard targets. Of course I had to go first I hit 4 out of 5 then they backed out 🤣 U have to love today's youth....
I don’t think the 6.5 creedmore will have the longevity of the .300 win mag. It comes from the long range world and it seems those guys are always chasing the latest and greatest cartridge to give them the edge.
Question. I’m looking for a target round for long distance competition shooting. I’m getting a Sako TRG and need to choose 300WM or 65CM. Love some opinions
300 win mag gets my vote , I've taken many deer with mine out to 400 yards . 3006 gets my vote to 300 yards but thats what i like ! if you like 6.5 or 243 or any other center fire rifle that's legal for deer hunting its great ! all us hunters and shooters keep the economy rolling along and support the 2nd amendment !
Energy is a poor indicator of effectiveness. I think it would be better to compare the 212 gr eldx in the 300 since it has a similar muzzle velocity to the 6.5 load being used as an example. Better yet would be to compare bullets of similar sectional density as it is hugely important in choosing a bullet generally speaking. The Barnes bullets are changing that to a degree… For myself when it comes to selecting hunting bullets my first consideration is adequate sectional density and then it’s ballistic coefficient because I’m not a truly long range hunter, I have no desire to shoot at game animals beyond 500 yards. Am I capable of taking deer at longer ranges? Probably but as the ranges get longer there’s more potential for problems to arise, misjudged range becomes more critical and reading the wind can be a real challenge (and what I consider my weakness). I guess my mindset is to get closer whenever possible after all I’m hunting not sniping.
Thanks for your awesome videos. It's nice to have somebody explain what and why, because there are many people shooting and hunting that do not understand what is happening when they use any certain round. There are too many people out there that hear about a certain round, go to the store buy it and go hunting, without even seeing how it works with their particular gun. The real test, for a hunting round, is how that round works on impact and what it does after that impact. Is it expanding well and imparting that energy? Does is stay together or does it fragment? I was lucky to have a father that went out and created his own hunting rounds. He was concerned with the accuracy and performance of the round for the guns he used to hunt with. I really enjoyed going with him, to the range (in S. Cal - way before Cal decided to become a communist state), when he would test the loads he developed. As we got older my brother and I would spend time in the reloading room, swaging .44 caliber bullets, cleaning and lubing our brass and reloading 30.06, 25.06 and .44 magnum rounds Those were good times, indeed!
Were headed to alaska, and Im torn between 300 308 and 338. (all win mag) ... planning on doing long range hunting but also for bear defense. What do you think?
Guys don't forget the Creedmore was developed as a target cartridge, I have a model 700 Classicin 6.5 by 55 swede and my rifle has a standard action and I can hand load and seat bullets out to maximum length and get more fps than the Creedmore with identical barrel lengths, the swede holds a little more powder. They just keep reinventing the wheel to sell new rifles and ammo. I guess that is good for all of us?
@ Ronald Roehrick - the old 6.5x55mm "Swedish Mauser" (the Norwegians helped invent it, BTW, but for some reason people seem to forget that much to their annoyance) is a tremendous cartridge. Used in a modern, high-strength steel bolt-action which allows the full potential of the cartridge to be exploited, it out-performs 6.5 CM with ease. The latter is a fine cartridge, don't get me wrong, but there's really nothing that it does that the old Swede can't also do just about as well - or better.
What if we rebarrel a 300WM or another magnum or a long action receiver with a 6.5cm barrel , would that allow us to load that 6.5cm to full powder capacity whilst using longer bullets and what would the 6.5cm's performance look like then or is having to seat bullet further in case negligible in unused powder capacity ? Also probably could be done with 300RUM and 300WM but I'll save that for another video .
Can you do similar comparison between 6.5 Grendel vs 308? Have heard similar crossover At somewhere in 300-500 yard range. Irrelevant for me as I have no business shooting past 100.😢. Within this range 223 has plenty power to punch paper or ring steel without doing excessive damage to targets or backstops.
I load my 300 wm with 230g a tips at 3000fps from a 30" barrel. Its knocking on 338 lapua mag enery. Anyone that says 6.5 creedmoor is in the same realm as 300 WM doesn't know anything about ammunition and their opinion should be completely disregarded. Hell 6 creedmoor is better than 6.5 creedmoor in most ways.
My favorite 300 Win Mag is a 165 gr Speer SPBT. It has a .520 bc and drive it out of a 26 inch barrel at 3250 fps. Shoots as far as I would ever need to. Calcs say 1140 lbs at 900 yards.
@@jmd1743 no it's far from the hardest to find I can't find 458 socom within 50 miles of me I drive to another state to get it but 7mm doesn't show up often where I am either but alot more often then some other cartridges
7mm RM is consistently one of the top hunting cartridges in North America, and perhaps the most-popular magnum caliber sold for that purpose. Trust me, there are a lot of fans of the chambering out there! And rightly so.... because it is a tremendous cartridge design.
Hay Ron iam a hand loader I love my 300 wm I have heard of a lot good stuff about the 6.5 but I am 62 years young no need to change now thanks love the info all ways learn something new every day
I have no doubt the 6.5 is a wonderful little rifle but it can not compare even close to a 300 mag and a 200 grain bullet. The one thing I have noticed about the 6.5 is it has the ability to turn the brains of those that buy it to mush.
Not even the best shots in the world should be taking shots on game animals over 3-400yds. Even that's too much time in flight, to many variables for issues. It's bad sportsmanship all together.
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I own both calibers. While I love the creedmoor, there is no way it can hit harder than the 300WM.
I lived in Alaska for 37 years, no matter what you're hunting there are Grizzlies or Brown Bears everywhere, not to mention large Black Bears. I wouldn't have wasted my time and endangered my life by using a 6.5 Creedmoor..
@@johnganshow5536 Agreed. If I was up there I would seriously look at 338WM. How do you think a semi-auto tactical shotgun loaded with slugs or #00 Buck would hold up for a close in encounter with a large bear?
@@johnganshow5536 I love my 6.5, but I am in an area where the biggest game is white tail. I sure as hell wouldn't be in Alaska with a 6.5. What do yo think the minimum caliber would be out there?
@@johnganshow5536 it's for paper punchers that don't touch anything that likes to bite back.
@@chuckster243 if you were in a place where there are dangerous animals an the creedmore was your only choice would you take it or not?
Ron, you are one of the few who actually understands ballistics. I completely agree with your comment about using the correct bullets for task. I have heard a lot of people trash talk a cartridge just because they were using a bear bullet on deer or vice versa.
He just used shooterscalculator , that's what the print out is in front of him.
It nice to have someone to trust.
With the aid of an exterior ballistics calculator, he understands the easy part well enough; but his focus on terminal energy is an indicator that he doesn’t understand the hard part, terminal performance, very well. Bullet energy is not well correlated with bullet wounding performance, so if you are modeling wounding with just bullet energy, then you are setting up yourself (and your viewers) for real world confusion and disappointment. Ron recovers somewhat towards the end of this video with his discussion of bullet construction, mass and momentum, but the hints toward a proper wounding model aren’t really sufficient to guide informed decision making.
@@markhamstra1083 exactly!
@@markhamstra1083 Yes. When the energy at the target is the same for 2 different size bullets, their weights have already been factored into the reported result. What I think he meant about wanting the heavier bullet, was that the larger one releases that energy easier then the smaller one, usually with a larger wound channel. Another way to say it is, for 2 bullets to arrive with the same energy, the light one has to be moving much faster.
Good review Ron, thanks. I live in the Yukon, and my 300WM does it for all the game we have here, from bison, grizzly, elk, moose, caribou, and more. Cheers
300 win mag is an awesome cartridge.
@@rickyflinchum2909
As is many others that do the same;
boils down to what you have, how its setup & used...!
Looking into beginning my Hunting journey. Living in Cali, what Cartridge is great for everything here, plus big game out of state such as elk, caribou, moose? I keep seeing .300Win, i just dont want overkill for California sized game
Used to have a 300WM which I ran with a Sierra 240 grain BTHP with a BC of over .700 at 2690 fp/s. Shot like a laser, hit like a freight train.
On both ends.
@@chucksherron But you're not. Going To be firing but maybe 20 to 40 rounds a year. I could live with the recoil for that many rounds.
Bro that is incredible, I didn't know there was a bullet that high of a b.c. for that caliber! That's amazing. Wouldn't be anything on this continent you couldn't put in the freezer.
@@itisfinished4U Yeah and it was amazing to load those rounds, I remember the projectile itself was as long as a loaded .357 magnum, lol. A 180 grain .308 FMJ projectile looked short and chubby next to it. Recoil was less than .308 because the rifle was 9lbs and had a muzzle brake. At 100yds I shot a group of one ragged hole with it.
@@osogrande2 you say that like every shooter only shoots 3 rounds a year through a hunting rifle. Believe it or not some people like to practice with their rifles to be more accurate, which you’re not going to do only shooting a handful of times a year with a hugely recoiling rifle that makes you flinch
Good comparison! You might have used the 300 WM with 200 ELD-X. It would have proven your point even better. I've used the 300 WM for 47 years and it's never let me down with coyotes, pronghorn, deer, elk and caribou. Your comment about momentum is so valid and most You Tubers don't mention or appreciate its significance.
momentum is P=MV. It is what is used to calculate the energy numbers in the ballistic charts he is reading off of..... What he is really trying to describe is a bullets ability to transfer said energy to an object. The only thing that matters then is friction, which is determined by the targets physical makeup, and the bullets characteristics such as size, spin, velocity and profile. The Creedmoor is already at a major disadvantage going head to head with a larger magnum round with at least a 1/3 more powder in its charge and that isn't enough for you that you have to imbalance it even more with a top end projectile? Might as well just put the WM up against the 300PRC if you are going to use the projectile made for it.
How large was the pink mist cloud after hitting a coyote with a 300WM
Where I hunt, 300yrd is a long shot, I'll stick with the proven performance of the 300wm. It's proven to me to consistently anchor Moose every time,.... the CM, stick to the target range...
I started handloading for the .300WM almost 30 years ago. I went through all the reloading books I could and decided on the 180 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and have never seen the need to change. I load that bullet over a healthy charge of Reloder 22 and get outstanding velocity and most of all accuracy.
Same her but a 180 partition…
The hotter the better it shoots…
75 grains RL22 under a 180 grain BT is my generic go-to load for 300 Win Mag and it never disappoints. Accurate and absolutely drops animals in their tracks with a boiler room shot.
How many grains?
That’s my favourite bullet and powder combination. Had good luck using it In the 30-06 as well.
I’ve always had good luck with 165s
Really like your videos Ron! I've shot 14 bull elk in 20 years with a 300 win mag-200 gr Nosler partition-range 10 ft to 300 yds. 6.5 creed is a target round-300WM is pure hunting round-no comparison but a lot of fellers don't realize that . Thanks for All the good info-keep it up pard!
Excellent video Ron. Personally I would not feel comfortable shooting at game beyond 300 yards. There are just too many unknown factors (like crosswind variation downrange) and I always want to ensure a clean kill. Also, no matter what cartridge you're shooting, you always have more energy the closer you are to your target. Hunting should be hunting, not military sniping.
You are right on Kevin !
I shoot ought 6 300 meters all day mate... What you in about?
@@chrisacd5895 Most of my deer and elk hunting has been in the dense rainforests of western Oregon, where you just don't get shots past 100 yards. My first deer was a Columbia blacktail at 15 yards that I could barely see through the brush, and I got a Roosevelt elk at about 30 yards. The longest range kill I ever made was a whitetail in eastern Washington at about 150 yards. So, I admit my long range hunting experience is really limited.
@@KevinSchwinkendorf my point is 300 meters , not yards, is extremely easy using a 300 win mag ..cross wind isn't a problem at all shooting game at 300 meters with a 300 mag. ... Tested my mates 300 mag and at 400 meters hitting targets is very easy.. . ... . .a steady rest is all that is required at 300...... 300m is relatively easy for me using my 3006. running a 2.5x16 Bushnell elite mill dot reticle....180 boat tails running hard... Many deer,, sambar, many... Reloaded for 17, 22-250, 220, 270, 3006, 378 wetherby, and 460 wetherby.... . Heads up smiles and remember, while there is lead in the air, there is hope.... Hehehehehe...
Thank you, as always, for your insight. We don't all have your experience to go by, but as we venture in to choices, it's helpful to have guidance.
Never owned a Creedmoor but I have been in love with a 6.5x55 for almost 40 years. Works like magic on deer without the massive meat destruction that I have seen from my more powerful 30 calibers and magnums. That said if I got an elk or moose tag I would opt for a 300 Win mag any day. Just choose the right tool for the job and anything larger than deer a 30 cal (or 35 caliber) comes into it's own IMHO.
I love 30s. I also have a 6.5x55 that I love on deer and antelope, but that 300 win is my elk rifle
A reasonable approach. My .300 win mag is my favourite all purpose all range all north american game cartridge. It’s certainly not needed in most applications but it doesn’t hurt anything either and I like it and shoot it well and it inspires confidence.
I also have 5 other centerfires and they all have their uses and some are better tools for specific jobs than my .300, but the .300 works for pretty much all jobs.
I also shoot and handload for a .243, 257 weatherby, 270 Winchester, 8x57 mauser, and .358 Norma magnum.
All of these could be and have been used to kill moose, even big bear. But for those special hunts you don’t get too often I’m bringing the .358 Norma. If I ever get drawn for pronghorn the .257 weatherby is the obvious choice. I could go on…they’re all perfect for something.
If you hand load you can that 6.5 Swede out perform the Creedmoor, especially with the heavier bullets. I have one of the Carl Gustaf M96's Sporterized by Kimber. Super shooter!
The Swedes have killed a lot of moose with 160-grain bullets in 6.5.
@@davewinter2688 cool rifle! Mine aren’t quite as pretty as kimber probably but for old school mauser type actions I have an old husqvarna m98 in 8x57 and a BRNO ZG-47 circa 1956 rebarreled to .358 Norma.
Kudos to you dispelling the myth. I knew it sounded funny. My first custom was a 6.5x55 improved on a Mauser action. I loved that rifle and miss it greatly.
Kimber put some rifles together from sweedish mauser actions about 20 years ago. Ed Shilen made some of the new barrels I understand. Might be able to find a few of these out on the used market if you want another rifle in 6.5x55
200 grain 300 WM Terminal Ascent BC is .608. Another jump in long range retained energy. I never heard the creed is more powerful than the 300WM and enjoyed your presentation Ron.
Im excited for this one. I’ve stuck by my 300 win mag through thick and thin.
@jeffovington6375 around my campfire we are talking about dropping big bulls with our .300wm and my wife and kids are hitting targets with the 6.5. not even in the same convo
@jeffovington6375good god I’m not reading this
Depends on what I'm hunting. For whitetails and such, pretty much anything works. If I'm going for bigger stuff, there's a .338WinMag (I don't have a .300WinMag).
My go to for anything is my Winchester Model 70 in .30-06, but maybe my Marlin Model 336 in .30-30 for western Columbia blacktail in the thick rainforests of northwest Oregon (my first deer was with that rifle when I was 14 - I'm 64 now). But I bought my .338 Win. Mag. for Alaska Yukon moose. I haven't had a chance to go yet, but that's my last bucket list goal before I die.
I run both, and I love both of them. I have a Tikka T3X CTR in 6.5cm and Sako S20 in .300 WM. I wouldn’t get rid of either one, and they both do great for my hunting here in the Deep South.
Both great choices. Finns sure do make a fantastic rifle. Have a T3 in .308 myself. Sadly in my area, ranges only go out to 100 yards. That is beyond boring with my rifle lol. A total waste of its potential, so I only take it with me when I can stretch its legs on private property.
@@CrashRacknShoot I am blessed with state sponsored shooting ranges that are over 200 yards and a few private ranges over 1000 yards all within 20 mins of my home.
Tikka/Sako actions are now my favorites…completely pulled me away from the Remington 700 and Browning X Bolts.
@@jacobivy2854 that's the life right there. Yeah, if I felt like dragging my ass a few hours north, I could stretch a few hundred more yards but just can't justify the time very often. But I think it's about time I took her out of the safe for more than a cleaning. If it had puppy dog eyes, it'd be trying to use them lol.
Woowee,,,,,,Sako !!!! Always wanted a Sako, or a Saur, but alas, those babies have always been way out of my financial reach. 700BDL has had to carry the freight for me and have to say, I'm never disappointed . CAVU
Two great rifles. 👌
I love the arguments about one cartridge vs. another at 600 or 800 yards, usually between shooters who can't keep all their shots on a volleyball at 100 yards, if you get them off a bench!
Couldn't agree more! I don't even take shots over 250. 250+ is just beyond my skill limit. Who cares about 300+?
i live in NE montana...... not all of MT is mountains, out here its FLAT AF!!!
.
so 100 yards is pretty rare to shoot at deer at..... most shots a 200-300
so ive gotten pretty good with my old ruger m77 mk2 308 with a simple nikon 3x9-40 and a harris bi-pod
.
i just LOVE that bi-pod..... has helped me make accurate shots that i NEVER would have been able to off a fence post or free hand
.
.
but while i may take a shot on a wounded deer at 500...... im going to get closer for a first shot
250-300 isnt REALLY that far with the right caliber/bullet....as long as the wind is not blowing 50+mph like it likes to up here....
.
but ya.... people spend 1000s on a "1000 yard gun".... but dont spend the money on ammo and the time at the range
its usually the old farts with 1 SIMPLE OLD rifle they have used for the last 20+ years that can shoot
.
i watched a dude miss a deer at 35 yards with a NICE high dollar rifle with adjustable everything, a suppressor, HUGE scope, ETC
i just sat their and laughed....
.
i had a deer in the back i killed at 200 with an iron sight M91/30 from 1935....i got back when they were 100 dollars (including the bayonet and cleaning kit)
Don't have a dog in the fight regarding the two cartridges, but it's hard not to shoot on a bench when that's the only thing that's provided. I'm trying to find an area or club to shoot at, so I won't be restricted at the closest range.
It always amazes me how far people can shoot. I don't have a bench, so my most stable position is resting on the back of a folding camp chair... but honestly, in field conditions with a 3x scope, if I have to shoot standing up without a tree to rest against, I am probably not going to shoot a further than 100 yards away. The gun just moves too much. Good on you guys that can do it better.
@@Daekar3 I have a bench and have had one for many years. Now I have a folding one much easier to haul around than my old hand made one. I always use a bench to make sure the firearm is sighted in at whatever range I see fit but that's because then I know if I miss a shot it's me not the accuracy of the rifle or a particular load. Every firearm I own is more accurate than I am.
I have both but would always prefer the 300wm for elk over the needmore at any distance. For deer, might as well use the 6.5CM at realistic hunting distances.
Not to mention, price per rd
You said needmore. 25-06 is just better overall. Good old school cal. Love my savage 110. Tack driver
If you need a little extra oomph over your 300 Win mag Weatherby makes a 300 that works even a little bit better,but it kicks harder.
@@dennistaylor6486 270 weatherby mag. Buddy has a matk v love that gun its sweet but it will knock your shoulder a little. Love my 25-06. My 308 is more than enough for anything else. Both are easier to shoot. Keep the mags. Not really necessary.
@@harryodell9497 so is the 270
I don't eat paper, so I successfully hunt with my 300 Win Mag
Anything that can hit paper can hit anything else. This is one of the weirdest comments that comes up from time to time.
@@shanehebert396 he's what you call a fud .
@@Portuguese-linguica i too am a Fudd but I’m damn good at it! He’s a successful hunter so, what exactly needs changing? Glitter not required!
@@dr.froghopper6711 I didn't say a word about changing anything. Plus it's your and his word that hes a successful hunter .
@@shanehebert396 Do you find written comprehension difficult? Let me explain for the less than mentally agile. He doesn't eat paper 'coz he doesn't shoot at it, thus correctly inferring that the 6.5 CM was designed primarily as a LR target rifle. Of course you can hunt animals with it, but it is limited compared to a 300 WM. So not weird at all.
Love it. So many people are obsessed with the 6.5 creedmoor when in fact it is not the kudos of cartridges. It is just something new with a lot of hype which has generated a lot of sales without strong justification.
🤣 Reminds me when they tried to convince us that the 6.8 Western would "outperform" the 7mm Remington Magnum! ☹ But, companies and people never lie (🤥), do they? 😜
Purposely avoiding context could be a form of 'lying'.
I guess if you want to get into the numbers 175 grain bullet with a BC of 620 shooting at 2970 ft per second should outperform the 7 mag and the two calibers Ron's talking about if not be right there with the 300 win mag
It does at longer range
🕵️♂️ The 175 grain Nosler ABLR 7mm bullet, moving at the same velocity of 2,970 ft/s, has a higher B.C. of 0.648 compared to the 165 grain 270 bullet of 0.620! So not only does the 7mm bullet shoot flatter, but it hits harder, because it is 10 grains heavier! 🤪 So, Your claims that it shoots flatter is False! Let alone that the 7mm Remington Magnum can push the 168 grain Nosler ABLR bullet (B.C. of 0.616) even faster (Approaching 3,100 ft/s) and 3 grains heavier! So, once again, you are Wrong Andrew and Carl! 🤥
.27 Nosler enters the chat 🤣🤣🤣
Seriously, .270 Winchester will do what you need will about $22 to $40 a box (roughly 1/2 the price of the fancy stuff).
Ohhhhhhhhhhh boy.. thank God for this channel I’m going to enjoy this. And also, I hope everyone in the comments are prospering, loving one another.
I love 6.5 but you can’t argue with the increased range of 300
Even 270 30.06 and 300 are my choice
If you feel 6.5 is not enough. Just get closer. At 200 yards you can ethically harvest every single animal inside lower 48.
People are lazy.
@@sasquatchrosefarts People who assume a hunter can always get closer are also intellectually lazy.
@@exothermal.sprocket @@exothermal.sprocket you can't always get that close. But if you are hunting mountain goats 300 wm may not be good enough either.
You're talking about a tiny percent of scenarios.
Same for antelope in Wyoming. 300 wm may not be enough for. 500 yards in crosswinds.
Ok, so you run 270 with a long barrel for mountain goats. And 338 Lapua for antelope at long range. . But the other 98 percent of animals can be taken with 6.5 creedmoor.
@@sasquatchrosefarts Consider that some hunters spend many tens thousands of dollars for even a slim chance at getting selected for a specific animal tag, and they go on that once-in-a-lifetime hunt. Whatever situation might present itself is going to be less optimal than most people want to imagine a typical hunt going. In that situation, you want to give yourself every advantage you can regarding rifle, caliber, cartridge, and personal training. If the difference between bagging that trophy you waited half your life to get is a change of cartridge, you'd be stupid not to.
How about those other hunters who are forced to let their animal go, or else take a quartering shot at an awkward angle through a bunch of tough bone and muscle, from position about 100 or 200 yards further than initially anticipated?
I could think of another hundred scenarios where a larger caliber is more appropriate.
How about just the whole ethics of making a sure kill rather than a less than optimal one? Hunters owe it to the management of wildlife to do better than debating over how to optimize a medium caliber for every circumstance "in the lower 48".
I understand the ballistics, great analysis. I've had three separate big game guides ask me what I was shooting, and when I said "300 WSM" they said, "Thank God, I thought you might say 6.5 Creedmoor!"
The only comparison that was common in the 2000s was the .260 Rem to .300 Win Mag for drop and wind at 1000yds, mainly 142gr SMK vs 190gr SMK.
Good point sir. I hadn’t considered ultra long range shooting at targets/humans. Beyond my scope. My comment only considered hunting applications. The 6.5 compares reasonably in that regard-Hence the mystique of the 264 ballistic coefficient I reckon.
@@holdmyswede It also pushed for the .30 bore to have longer, higher BC projectiles developed for it to exceed 6.5mm and 7mm. Then 7mm got the 195gr Berger EOL.
The 220gr and 240gr .308" bullets really pushed the BCs higher, but .300 Win Mag isn't the optimum cartridge and throat for those.
Something else I never considered. Do longer bullets translate into higher BC within a given diameter? The custom barrel chambers make some sense to me then. I seem to remember reading the 300 is limited by a short neck. Well beyond my knowledge base. I grew up hunting whitetail in WV at less than 100 yards. Lived in the Rockies in my 20’s, but still never thought to shoot further than 200 yards or so. In my youth, I thought it was the morale thing to stalk closely to game. Thanks for the knowledge and conversation.
@@holdmyswede Generally yes. That's called sectional density. If you have a really pointy ogive, long shank, and long boat tail, the BC will be higher. Short, football or blunt-nosed bullets with flat bases have low BCs.
.30-30 is plenty out East in the thick woods. 7mm Rem Mag has been very popular in the Rockies.
I agree with you Ron.
I own both, I shoot and hunt with both.
The 6.5 is a antelope, deer round.
The 300WM is for elk and moose.
I personally find it absurd that anyone but the most skilled would take any shot at game over 300 yards.
One question: Have you done anything about meat damage using the larger faster rounds?
Shot placement is what destroys meat, not caliber. A badly placed 243 will wreck more meat thant a properly placed 300mag. I've seen it happen.
6.5 Swede has been used to kill Moose for over 100 years and it's obvious that 6.5 Creedmoor isn't lagging behind that cartridge.
@@redrustyhill2The cartridge, load and firearm matter too. Imagine a squirrel being shot with a .50 BMG. Yeah.
The 30 caliber bullet has 36% more frontal area so it’s more efficient at converting that energy into tissue damage.
It’s simple math. Increased the weight to equal 300 mag. Like a 200gr 6.5 bullet going the same speed would be a spectacle to see.
6.5's smaller frontal area makes it easier to penetrated deeply.
You may already addressed this,
How about comparing the 6.5 Creedmoor to the 6.5 Swedish Mauser.
Hm. 36% sounds like a lot but all of these calibers are within a potato chip width of each other. Is a 30 cal fmj converting more energy into damage than a 243 jhp? Cartridge matters some. Caliber matters almost naught. Bullet design is where the real differences are found.
@@markjohnson206 The increased size is all the way around the bullet, so that potato chip adds up all the way around the diameter of that bullet. Even if it's not huge.
.300 win mag, all day EVERY DAY. There is no substitute.
Oh, I wonder why the military doesn’t just equip everyone with it?
Something doesn’t add up
Amen brother!!!!!
300 weatherby
I own both, but I have never found myself in a situation where I was torn on which one to bring hunting. Maybe if I wanted to deer hunt on Kodiak island or something. For dropping deer on the far side of a bean field, 6.5 all day. Elk across a canyon, definitely the .300
I like a 257 Wby myself but also have a 300WM and they work too but man do I love the Weatherby velocity!
Speed demon! I would love a 257 wby. But they are hard to come by in my neck of the woods. That and the government is working on banning all firearms.
@@whoshotashleybabbitt4924No ... They're not.
But then, looking at your screen name, there's a canyon between you & truth.
BC makes a difference way earlier than Ron claims.
Out of 20’ barrel A 30-06 200 grain ELD-X @2515 ft/s will have 1914 ft-lb at 300 yards. An old fashioned Core-Lokt will only have 1405.
in my book 536 ft-lb or 28% more energy at a typical hunting distance is a significant advantage
Those bullets are so bad no ethical hunter will use them.
@@wadeparker6091 which ones you mean the eldx or the core lokt?
I agree an disagree to an extent, but personally a 30-06 is happiest with a 165/168 grain bullet and a full case of powder. 2950 fps and accurate well past 1000 yards. No reason to go any heavier.
@@blueridgeboy6791 I agree, if you use a bonded led bullet. For copper I would go lighter.
I don‘t like the low 40-60% weight retention of the ELD-X at high velocities. The higher weight gets the speed down to an area of 80% retention while retaining true 30-06 ft-lb levels
@@wadeparker6091 what would be acceptable to you? Only bonded bullets like the Accubond?
Honestly I‘d rather have somebody shoot game with an ELD-X which reliably expands down to 1600 ft/s, than have them shoot a too heavy TTSX out of a fancy short barrel with speeds below expansion threshold
I have a couple long range rigs just for fun, and I love it. But they they don't come with me on Big Game hunts. It is easy to get within 300-400 yards, so why would you not want to?
Great info. If 400yds is your max range then pick any of them.
I will take the most
Accurate rifle/bullet combo of these three samplings. And then if all equal in accuracy I will take a lighter rifle with less recoil. This was eye opening. Thank you for delivering concise and useful info in such a small amount of time. That takes planning, coordination and craftsmanship. You are excellent Mr Spomer
Thank you Scott.
Basic physics- fantastic demonstration on the substantial impact (pardon the pun) of an improved BC and the long range energy of each round. Fascinating.
I have both. Different tools for different jobs.
It doesn't take much energy to punch a hole in paper. That's all I shoot at that distance. Let's not forget the frontal area, or the 210/215 berger or 190 Nosler ABLR.
*Moose all over Scandinavia have succumbed to the 6.5x55.* 6.5's have their place. I have 4 of 6.5's. 6.5 Grendal, 6.5 CM, 6.5x47 Lapua & 6.5x284 Norma. BUT, IMHO none of them are going to out do the 300 Win Mag. While I don't own one, I do have a .300 Wthby. which has produced one shot stops on every game animal that I've harvested with it. But, I do have to say that my 6.5x284 has taken it's fair share of deer... out to 700 yards.
But but but but but but, the guy at the gun store said I should buy a bigger rifle. And said the more expensive ammo didn't matter. 😉
wonder how the 7PRC Stacks up to the ebiquitous 300WM. Give those numbers a try Ron
I was talking with a guy in the gun shop on this subject. He made the same claim so I just asked him "So you believe the 6.5 Swedeish Mauser is better than the 300? he laughed and said OG COURSE NOT....
Just love your channel Ron, no BS! Lol.. Ron, I went back to work for Brownells. I'll tell the guys you said hi! I start back next week as I was not ready for retirement yet. Maybe in a few years. We have really upgraded the shop, hope to see ya soon. Great video as usual. Always thumbs up!
I agree that momentum is an underrated and understated aspect of terminal performance. I think if we are going to compare the 6.5 CM to a 300 Win Mag using modern high BC bullets, the 300 is much better served with something in the order of the 212 ELD-X, or much better yet, a 210gr Nosler Accubond Long Range rather than the 178 where the 6.5CM looks like it has a chance a way out there of catching up. With a 212 ELD_X, the BC is .663 and, it's apples to apples and the 6.5CM comes up way short of even being competitive and will never catch the 300.
The problem is many of the old 300 win mag chambers just aren't cut for these bullets. You need to have a chamber throat properly setup for the long high bc bullets just as you need the right twist, it's not universally compatible. Many of these new cartridges similar to old ones are just that, a new spec designed around these modern bullets because just shoving them into an old gun would be either unsatisfactory or dangerous.
Can you get 2800 fps mv in factory loads for the 6.5 Creedmoor?
I have and love both the 6.5 creedmoor and a 300 Remington Ultra Mag and, at distance, I'll take the 300 Ultra Mag every time, past 300 yds. Took a mule deer in western Wyoming in 2003 at 505 yds with the 300 Ultra Mag. I spent the entire summer on hayfields with shots out to 600 yds, so I was ready for a long shot if it presented itself. People said I was crazy burning that ammo on groundhogs, but it is the only way you will be ready. Practice with a purpose. I've taken dozens of whitetails here in Pennsylvania with the 6.5 creedmoor and 129 gr Hornady interlocks and no problem. But, now I'm fiddling around with my newer 375 Ruger and 270 gr soft points at the same velocity as the 129 gr in the 6.5 creedmoor. Too much for whitetails? Maybe. Fun? You betcha!!!
Years ago, I practiced the same with a Rem 700 Sendaro 25-06 with my handloaded 100 gr Nosler ballistic tips. I had over 800 yrds to shoot from my back deck, I would lay out there shooting ground hogs out to 600 yrds. I shot my largest deer power walking at 483 yrds when he was going through trees and crossed a 60' wide clearing where I was hoping he would cross, he finished his stride and was down.
Some guys think 6" looks like 8" too, doesn't make it so. Guys who get into a pissing contest about which cartridge has the most magic should take a class in physics, the BS floats away in the stream. Good stuff Ron, keep it coming.
Excellent explanation on this and I couldn't agree more!
Ron, I just cited one of your articles for a paper I just wrote It was about reading a ballistic table. Thank you for giving us so much great information to use.
I own both in a ar platform the 300 win mag I've used to take everything on 4 legs here in alaska
Ron will you PLEASE explain sectional density on bullets
I love my 6.5 Creedmoor, shooting it more than any other rifle. But never ever use it for hunting. I hunt in heavy wooded areas always wanting a quick kill, my 300 WM or 338 WM my calibers of choice.
Good stuff Ron!! It’s really awesome how the new high b/c bullets perform. They turn the old 300 Win Mag and 6.5x55 into a freight train and make my favorite rifle…. the 7mm Rem Mag into arguably the most versatile rifle on earth ! Appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.
I love your videos Ron! Great breakdown on 2 great cartridges. Like so many others, I have both and like both. If I do a paid hunt out west I grab the 300 with 180 AB’s. Talk to the guides and outfitters. I’ve only hunted out west maybe 10 times but nearly every outfitter wanted a 270Win as a minimum and prefer a 30 cal. Most of them also like to limit shots to under 300 yds. You just showed that at the range most of us consider reasonable on game, the 300 has the clear advantage.
Thanks Jeffrey.
Ron is wrong, "that tip of 180 definitely falls more, one thing is what the tatla says and another is reality". We checked it over and over again with calibers 30 from 308 to 300 rum and wea, they fall more is the reason we use 270. unfortunately I have not been able to experiment with 243, although I admit that I use 223 a lot. I have been so close that I could do it with 22 lr I suppose the 243 will be fine. let me tell you that I have received people with 257 wea that break the tip at short distances due to speed, since my country does not fit anything else from todaynady sst or interlock I have had to copy them with a lathe, that is why they prefer large calibers of 7 mm up, the mass does not tolerate speed, hence the 270 7 rm 30.06 and 300 wm are the 4 kings of the hunt
I believe those v max are the best as far as well controlled expansion and bullet stabilization. I also like a slow burning powder that leaves no space in the casing for consistent fps.
Thanks for presenting this information to your readers. I argue with 6.5CM lovers all the time about it's short comings compared to various 30 caliber bullets. Particularly against the venerable .30-06! If you bring the BC's closer together, run both at SAAMI max pressures, the 06 wins every time. Not by much, but it does out perform! When comparing two different calibers, one must find some common ground between the two and get things on the same page!
The real pro of the creedmoor is when your shoulders as fu,,,ed as mine , ,,the 6.5 is shootable, my beloved o6 is just plain brutal unless I download to the point that the creed just makes more sense. Its 300 savage and creedmoor now I've shot both off my nose, wouldn't even try it with o6 or win mag lol . God bless .
@@shawntailor5485 the .260 Remington works just as well! If you are set on using a 6.5.
@@allenforaker6720 of course it does, but why would someone chose a cartridge with less support now just to avoid …. What? Being a creedmoor owner?
@@allenforaker6720 heard lots of good things about that 260 just never had the pleasure of exposure . Believe it shoots the same bullet as moms 284 and that's a heck of a round . First shortmag .
@@shawntailor5485 Well, since we are both reading this blog, your mom's .284 is 7mm. Not the same as a .260 (6.5mm). A person shoots what works for them, the 6.5CM is a trust worthy cartridge, it just is not magic! When the 6.5/284 started winning long range BR competitions it was because it was just as accurate as the .300WM, and didn't beat the shooter to death while covering a match. Those that like the 6.5CM, more power to them, just don't try to convince me that is better than those cartridges that are tried and true!
I have been two three tracking jobs of wounded whitetail deer and bears with dogs over the past 10 years but have been hunting for 35+ years. The last two times my neighbors some hit a giant and called in the dogs and I asked him what caliber is most common for having to track and the guy before him said the same thing. 6.5 creedmore is ,according to them, the most common cartridge for the dogs to come track. Im not a gun expert but found it interesting they both said the same thing
We see this a lot on our ranches in west Texas. True, majority of them are Creedmor now but not because it doesn’t work. Why we see it the most is because businesses take clients out that have never hunted and that’s the easiest rifle to find along with ammunition. That being said it’s mainly due to inexperienced hunters making bad shots.
Newbie here. I have almost 20 years in the military shooting 5.56 and 7.62, but I’ve never been hunting or gone outside those traditional mil calibers. Videos like this are helping me with my decision. I’m currently in Colorado and I plan on getting into hunting game. It’s long overdue and I think I’ll be going with the 300 WM. Everything I read outside of marketing is pointing in that direction.
Absolutely love Ron "bench racing" calibers. When it comes down to it the best rifle/caliber is going to be the one you have in your hand.
That you know how to shoot.
@@johncox2865 100% Correct. We need to be the expert marksmans we were as a kids when no soda can was safe no matter the range or condition. A perfect example would be Henry from 9-Hole Reviews and his M24. We can bench race all day about how a 300WM or 338L would be better, but he's running that course better than any of us with that "inferior" 308 rifle. ruclips.net/video/V2fKM8AlNSc/видео.html
Your words "Hunt honest and shoot straight" are the words of true Sportsman.
In these modern times it should be Hunt Quietly and Shoot Straight #huntquietly
@@JohnDoe-hu9ve I see what you did there.
I live in Maine and I love my 300wm. I can't see myself shooting at anything over 500 yards away unless it's on a lake and I usually don't hunt kayakers.
My max distance is 400yds. Its so flat and treeless where i live you can spot deer over a mile away.
And i love the videos keep up the hard work always love watching the cartridge videos
Thanks Brandon.
I have (2) 6.5 CM and looking at finally getting a 30 cal. I think I am going to go with a 300 PRC. I will be reloading them myself.
And that's why I just stick with the 30-06 and the 7mm mag no fudging the numbers just good old dependability
Love it Ron! FINALLY someone did an Apples to Apples comparison on the creed!! I don't know if you've done this yet? I'd like to see a true comparison of short action bolt gun vs standard long action!!! I'm thinking 308 vs 06 with the same barrel length!!! Just how much ACTUAL length and weight savings is there???
Thanks keep up the good work!
I'll take the 300. Great vids !!! Much respect
Thanks Burrco.
This makes me curious. I do not shoot 6.5 creedmoor, but once upon a time I shot a lot of 6.5x55 mauser. I found velocity of that round to vary greatly depending on barrel length. I've seen a lot of data suggesting the 143 grain eldx can reach 2700 or even 2800 fps in the creedmoor. Have you chronographed such a bullet from a typical 22 inch sporter length barrel? I could imagine 2600 fps might be closer to the mark. Thank you for the great video Mr. Spomer, entertaining and thought provoking as usual
🙉 🙊 🎯 👍👍 😜 Lmao
Being a PROUD Owner of a 300 win mag
Browning bar mark ii safari w boss system!! I Have been arguing with my Nephew & cousin about this exact thing!!
I Tryed telling them then we went to the south pasture to shoot 800 yard targets.
Of course I had to go first I hit 4 out of 5 then they backed out 🤣 U have to love today's youth....
Nilgai hunting in south Texas, someday. 300 win mag or 30.06? Best shot placement for Nilgai?
My 300 WM is my long range hunting rifle, my 6.5 stays on the range only...
can you do a comparison between the 30-06 and the 300 Win Mag?
I don’t think the 6.5 creedmore will have the longevity of the .300 win mag. It comes from the long range world and it seems those guys are always chasing the latest and greatest cartridge to give them the edge.
The Creedmore is to the 2020’s what the 7mm Remington Magnum was in the 1980’s.
I see a lot of 7mm used in gun stores because the hype wore off
Question. I’m looking for a target round for long distance competition shooting. I’m getting a Sako TRG and need to choose 300WM or 65CM. Love some opinions
300 win mag gets my vote , I've taken many deer with mine out to 400 yards . 3006 gets my vote to 300 yards but thats what i like ! if you like 6.5 or 243 or any other center fire rifle that's legal for deer hunting its great ! all us hunters and shooters keep the economy rolling along and support the 2nd amendment !
.30-06 is as good for 1000 as anything.
Thank you. I love both .30 caliber and the .264 caliber
That’s a bit of a stretch 0:12 I would say. The 6.5 is a good deer round, but a 300wm does a much better job on an elk.
What about the 300 PRC with heavy for caliber projectiles....will it smoke the ancient 300WM ?
Energy is a poor indicator of effectiveness. I think it would be better to compare the 212 gr eldx in the 300 since it has a similar muzzle velocity to the 6.5 load being used as an example. Better yet would be to compare bullets of similar sectional density as it is hugely important in choosing a bullet generally speaking. The Barnes bullets are changing that to a degree…
For myself when it comes to selecting hunting bullets my first consideration is adequate sectional density and then it’s ballistic coefficient because I’m not a truly long range hunter, I have no desire to shoot at game animals beyond 500 yards. Am I capable of taking deer at longer ranges? Probably but as the ranges get longer there’s more potential for problems to arise, misjudged range becomes more critical and reading the wind can be a real challenge (and what I consider my weakness). I guess my mindset is to get closer whenever possible after all I’m hunting not sniping.
Is it possible to load a 168gr Sierra Matchking BT round in a 300WM?
What would be the performance of that?
Most guides dont think the cm is best for elk
Ron, am I not better off using a 6.5 PRC VS. BOTH 6.5 creed or 300 Win. Mag?
Thanks for your awesome videos. It's nice to have somebody explain what and why, because there are many people shooting and hunting that do not understand what is happening when they use any certain round. There are too many people out there that hear about a certain round, go to the store buy it and go hunting, without even seeing how it works with their particular gun. The real test, for a hunting round, is how that round works on impact and what it does after that impact. Is it expanding well and imparting that energy? Does is stay together or does it fragment? I was lucky to have a father that went out and created his own hunting rounds. He was concerned with the accuracy and performance of the round for the guns he used to hunt with. I really enjoyed going with him, to the range (in S. Cal - way before Cal decided to become a communist state), when he would test the loads he developed. As we got older my brother and I would spend time in the reloading room, swaging .44 caliber bullets, cleaning and lubing our brass and reloading 30.06, 25.06 and .44 magnum rounds Those were good times, indeed!
Were headed to alaska, and Im torn between 300 308 and 338. (all win mag) ... planning on doing long range hunting but also for bear defense. What do you think?
Guys don't forget the Creedmore was developed as a target cartridge, I have a model 700 Classicin 6.5 by 55 swede and my rifle has a standard action and I can hand load and seat bullets out to maximum length and get more fps than the Creedmore with identical barrel lengths, the swede holds a little more powder. They just keep reinventing the wheel to sell new rifles and ammo. I guess that is good for all of us?
@ Ronald Roehrick - the old 6.5x55mm "Swedish Mauser" (the Norwegians helped invent it, BTW, but for some reason people seem to forget that much to their annoyance) is a tremendous cartridge. Used in a modern, high-strength steel bolt-action which allows the full potential of the cartridge to be exploited, it out-performs 6.5 CM with ease. The latter is a fine cartridge, don't get me wrong, but there's really nothing that it does that the old Swede can't also do just about as well - or better.
Yup, also the the 260 Remington is much the same.
What if we rebarrel a 300WM or another magnum or a long action receiver with a 6.5cm barrel , would that allow us to load that 6.5cm to full powder capacity whilst using longer bullets and what would the 6.5cm's performance look like then or is having to seat bullet further in case negligible in unused powder capacity ? Also probably could be done with 300RUM and 300WM but I'll save that for another video .
I've never killed anything at more than 100m in my life and I've been hunting since I was 6.
Little boys all want to pretend they are snipers now.
Stalking your prey isnt cool anymore....
Can you do similar comparison between 6.5 Grendel vs 308? Have heard similar crossover At somewhere in 300-500 yard range. Irrelevant for me as I have no business shooting past 100.😢. Within this range 223 has plenty power to punch paper or ring steel without doing excessive damage to targets or backstops.
My 300s ain't going to get bested by this stoopid thing. I wouldn't trade my 300s for a semi slap full of those measly guns.
Thanks for not making a total clickbait video filled with other b.s. both are great calibers
I load my 300 wm with 230g a tips at 3000fps from a 30" barrel. Its knocking on 338 lapua mag enery. Anyone that says 6.5 creedmoor is in the same realm as 300 WM doesn't know anything about ammunition and their opinion should be completely disregarded. Hell 6 creedmoor is better than 6.5 creedmoor in most ways.
My favorite 300 Win Mag is a 165 gr Speer SPBT. It has a .520 bc and drive it out of a 26 inch barrel at 3250 fps. Shoots as far as I would ever need to. Calcs say 1140 lbs at 900 yards.
The 300 with a 165 grain bullet is the magic recipe.
Why do people skip 7mm rem mag?
Harder to find ammo honestly
@@specialperson170 It's not like it's 8mm RUM or a SAUM.
@@jmd1743 no it's far from the hardest to find I can't find 458 socom within 50 miles of me I drive to another state to get it but 7mm doesn't show up often where I am either but alot more often then some other cartridges
7mm RM is consistently one of the top hunting cartridges in North America, and perhaps the most-popular magnum caliber sold for that purpose. Trust me, there are a lot of fans of the chambering out there! And rightly so.... because it is a tremendous cartridge design.
Hay Ron iam a hand loader I love my 300 wm I have heard of a lot good stuff about the 6.5 but I am 62 years young no need to change now thanks love the info all ways learn something new every day
I have no doubt the 6.5 is a wonderful little rifle but it can not compare even close to a 300 mag and a 200 grain bullet. The one thing I have noticed about the 6.5 is it has the ability to turn the brains of those that buy it to mush.
HELLO Ron just off subject can you do a segment on the 308 norma mag vs the 30-06 and the 300 win mag
2800 out of the CM…😂😂😂😂😂
and that's all you need
Great story my friend and thanks for the info 👍👍👍
Not even the best shots in the world should be taking shots on game animals over 3-400yds. Even that's too much time in flight, to many variables for issues. It's bad sportsmanship all together.
Iron sights, too. Maybe just a long bow.
300 win mag is the most badass round that you can buy at Wal-Mart
300 win mag all day long!
I own 2 6.5 cm , love them,but 300 will crush it .
Why don't you use a high bc .30 (220gr+) bullet in the 300? Or a low bc bullet in the 6.5?
Ron, I think this is a case where people who bought the 6.5 were immediately disappointed and wished they bought a .300 win instead.
The current lots that I'm seeing for hornady precision hunter 6.5 cm are stating 2700fps for muzzle velocity, a 24" barrel I think.