These rules feel like catching up with an old friend that has done well for themselves since you last spoke. I do not hate the 9th Ed 40k rules but this feels like "proper" Warhammer.
@@Afflictamine the biggest difference is rules bloat. each codex is chock full of stratagems and unit rules that make it difficult to remember what your enemy does. its more complex, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, but many prefer the more simple approach of new hh
@@Afflictamine It front loads information, but all armies use the same keywords and special rules so once you grasp it, you have a better understanding of what both you and your opponent can do without needing to own their codex as well as yours to confidently know how to plan and play a turn. I'd say its learning curve is steeper at first so seems more complex at the start but is ultimately more clear and easy to play over time (also doesnt require you to own a million different supplements, updates, articles and campaign books to know what exactly your army can do)
Hey Ash, thanks for the review - the maths for the strength vs toughness to wound chart is that you can wound up to the STR of the attacker +3 - if you go past that, you can't - basically you the score required is: - 2+ if S>T by 2 or more - 3+ if S>T by 1 - 4+ if S=T - 5+ if S
The wound chart is back to what it was all the way back to 1st ed. you cannot wound something more than 3 toughness over your strength. so S1 cannot wound over T4, 2 = 5, 3 =6 and so on. and if its 2T lower than your S, then its wounds on 2s, 1 less is 3s. much easier to get to wounds on 2s than 8th and 9th.
As someone who is completely burnt out on current 40k, I was desperately hoping this was going to be a return to older editions. I was scared they were going to 'update' Horus Heresy to the new design philosophy. The fact that not only did they keep the rules 'authentic', but they also improved upon them in many ways, makes me so unbelievably happy. Now I just have to start practicing my "I never wanted this..." delivery for every time I start rolling up a shooting phase.
I got back into 40k after a 20 year hiatus after 2nd edition. So many of these rules ignite so much nostalgia, and I have to say that I actually love the reaction system. The rules seem crunchy, as 40k ought to be. But it does mean long games. hehe
Thank you very much for presenting an honest walk through of how the game works. I appreciate you not filling the video with cringe antics like so many other RUclipsrs. Sometimes I can barely watch warhammer videos, but I loved this one.
Agreed. I liked 2nd, and it was great for smaller games, but 3rd (and it's slightly more refined brother in 4th) were and are my jam. I'm hoping they do the same with The Old World and use mostly 6th ed rules.
The game is aimed at veterans, which I'm happy about. GW finally looking after us old boys. But it will be interesting to see if the current HH community switches to this ruleset or keeps playing the forgeworld black book rules. I'm just happy that it's going plastic.
@@jonesdan85 I'm the same. 6th also had a huge amount of additional content and ways to play (Skirmish, Warbands etc). Though I do like 5th for a bit of HeroHammer.
Fluff wise, it's worth noting that the pre-heresy imperium still regularly wipes out entire species/planets/civilizations, turns people into servitors, is wildly xenophobic, and conscripts people on a massive scale. It's still a very grimdark setting even before Horus did his thing.
the 40k ideas of "scientific stagnation/degradation" and "religious zealotery" are so off putting to modern mindset that most warhammer fans are willing to forgive any Emperor´s sins ("a necessary evil") and hypocrisies ("a well meant lie") as long as they dont how to face the anti enlightenment implications of 40k. That scientific zenith of Dark Age of Technology didnt saved humanity from horrors of the Age of Strife and wont turn the tides of 40k (unless GW decids to AoSing 40k). And that warhammer is a gothic setting defined by stark moral contrastof of its characters (factions), how they had choose their moral positions, how they fight for it and how those positions cost them dearly on battlefield. BigE lied to his sons and that lie doomed humanity. It is a tragedy in a clasical traditions but which dennies catharsis to modern audience that would satisfy their modern sentiment of ethics and art because in grimm darkness of 40k there is only war and the laughter of thirsting gods. And nothing is more foreing to modern man than gods and war... So all they can have is having a fun with an over the top setting
It’s not on the preorder slate for 5/28. So may be the first week of June? 5/28 is the chaos knight Abom/codex/datacards, new kill team exp and the hab terrain
When I started playing Warhammer 40k it was 2nd edition. I loved the lore, the painting and making miniatures, and really loved playing the game. Played from 1995-99. Now just getting back into the hobby. I am getting the box set for sure and have some Mk3 and mk4 boxes of Marines as well. I am doing it because I want to paint minis again and love the lore... so I am one of the people that will absolutely love the first 140 pages of the book. :)
Great overview Ash. The rules genuinely look good, apart from the to-wound chart, as that could create a lot of 'feels bad' moments. With that being said, I genuinely wish that Alan Bligh was still around to see how much love there still is for the game that he spear-headed into production. RIP Alan
You can tell it's an Andy Hoare helmed title, the box comes with reference sheets, good stuff. Also nice to see dreads can't be melee loaded and then get immobilized mid field.
This fixes almost everything I disliked about 30k. Excessive overwatch that means rolling tons of dice every charge for little effect: gone. Removing the closest model for casualties and artificer shenanigans: gone. Cumbersome psychic phase that grinds the game to a halt: gone. Confusing movement rules that make it hard to remember how far vehicles can move and still fire their weapons: gone. Awesome awesome awesome. Super stoked about this.
Thanks for this review! These HH new rules seem very good to me with the come-back of all the old mechanics that I love and interesting new rules like the reactions. I don't play anymore to 40k because of the current system (too simple for the core mechanics, and unnecessarily complex, and non realistic/logical in codex mechanics, specially in stratagems) but I'd love to play 40k with these rules (more complex and complete in core mechanics, but shared by every one and quite logical).
Hi Ash, If the toughness is 4 more than your STR then you cant wound. That is the increment you were looking for in the to Wound Chart. Also great run down of the rules.
I hope they release a smaller book like the old 7th Ed rule book these big hard back books are nice but when you just wanna check a rule it’s cumbersome
To wound table: notice the diagonals: The main diagonal is 4+, then you have an 5+ and two 6+ lines going right. You have a 3+ going left, and everything left of the 3+ line is 2+
Listening to you talk about the rules, it would be quite cool if you maybe did a video once comparing the main rules systems of the most popular wargames and what you like and dislike about them. I mean mainly things like Turn based systems vs Alternative Activations vs 'Interleaved' turns (Eg MESBG), and things like that. Would be interesting given you play so many games! ty
They most likely can't since if they're getting this stuff early they're probably under NDA. And GW's NDA agreement is so draconian mild criticism can be perceived as breaking it.
@@Rsma77 I didn't mean criticising GW or another game, I just meant in general. For example I love Alternating Activation, but it's very difficult to get right, and actually is not very 'simulationist' for big battles as it encourages attacks on units that havn't activated yet. Just would be interesting that's all.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames Yes - just want to say again i wasn't asking for more critical rules reviews! Just thought it would be cool to hear your thoughts on alternative activations v turns systems, what rules you particularly liked, good magic systems etc Best Ash
I think one of those things I prefer with 40/30k is the style of all those codexes and rulebooks from GW. They are so well done, compelling, beautifully illustrated (V3 40k was a masterpiece festival in this domain). I love all the descriptions, the artworks, and all the narrated parts in the form of quotes or little bits of documents and recordings (this aspect is fading away unfortunately in favor of a "in present" linear classic narration which is a diminishment imo).
I still have three sealed Betrayal at Calth sets; was going to make a large Word Bearer force but then Forgeworld stopped selling the legion conversion kits.
17:41 for the rules for those monsters that want to skip Ash's lovely preamble. This ruleset is what I wish current 40k is, just with 9ths Force Orgs. I can go without Strats and command points as well, but I know some people like them. Looking forward to all the HH content to come! Be picking up a box set for myself and doing Iron Warriors vs Imp Fists. Ash, are you going to do a Siege of Terra themed Blood Angels? 31:30 would have mentioned Initiative order, that's a huge change from current 40k.
I'm sure it's been mentioned in another comment, but the math on the Strength vs Toughness chart is if Toughness is 4 or more higher than strength, you can't wound. That is the math part you were looking for briefly.
First things first. So happy that you got this stuff early, really believe that you make the best content and reviews. Have you seen the Legion rules? I'm really interested if I can play Space Wolves out of the box with the new box...worried about those goofy Grey Slayers
On the to wound chart you can wound anything that is 3 higher toughness than your strenght. You can't wound anything that is 4 higher toughness than your strength.
To Wound is additive in heresy. That means however much your strength is higher over the opponent's toughness that's how much you improve or worsen the 4+ to wound when you're equal to a minimum of 2+, and a maximum where you can't wound at all. Instead once you reach 6+, you get 1 rank of toughness you can wound on a 6 before you can't wound at all.
I'd like to see a short series of escalation-style armies, with the same core. Say, 1000, 2000 & 3000pts. It would be a good showcase of cool stuff, but also clarify how Reactions play out at the different scales.
i don't really understand the comparison of the Tclosest model getting wounded' to 'the controlling player picks a model that gets wounded'. Before, with the closest model you had to position the artificer armour guy out front to tank all the small arms fire, but he had to tank the hard hitting weapons as well. Now it's even easier to have the artificer armour tank all small arms fire.... he just needs to be in line of site and you just pick him.... I find that a detriment. If he doesn't get wounded, you can even pick another to take the lasannon. Feels actually even gamier....
Yeh. I hated it when they first introduced the "pull from the front" rule. But I quickly changed my tune when I realised the tactical and strategic implication the rule brought with it. It was a small change, that brought in so much depth.
Agreed there - while I don't mind this change (it reminds me of 5th edition) it does mean that you can't use clever positioning to snipe out characters or slip past their artificer guy or kill a special weapon ASAP. It's an interesting change, but not for the reason he thinks it's interesting.
He actually missed it in the video but any model with the character sub type can stop or start allocation anytime you'd like even if they've been wounded. That's unit champs and independent characters. It's even gamier than 9th ed 40k for wound allocation.
Wow, I must have been out of the loop for a long time...the rules all seem so familiar with what I thought the standard rules were. It sounds like the newer editions really majorly changed the core rules. If I get back into playing TT again I may have to go for 30k since the new 40k edition rules referenced as comparison sound terrible.
Yeah, they significantly rewrote the rules in 8th edition, enough so that the previous Codices were completely unusable. (I've played off and on since 6th myself.)
I won't pretend to be well read with the 40k and 30k. But the one thing that gets me is 40k Magnus and why he doesn't have a want to wipe out the black legion Surely he knows that Horus had a hand in the burning of Prospero. He wasn't the executioner but he had a hand making sure Russ did what he did best.
I like that Initiative has more purpose by adding it to running rule, and that running is more of tactical move than a gamble with little payoff, but it seems like a huge jump as a M6 + I4 would equal a run of 10", makes me wonder what will affect this otherwise bikers and jumppack units will have less reason to be taken for their speed boost. Maybe terrain rules will balance it out IE bikers and jumppack units aren't slowed as much, while infantry don't add their Initiative when through cover or something. Mixed feelings on walkers losing AV values, as this puts them on a move level battlefield with infantry and monsters, but makes them fighting other vehicles seem weird. Surprised they weren't given a degrading stat line. Personally I would have like to have seem monstrous creatures gain AV values with some sub rules of some sort. The rending rule sounds good and bad, it's good that it can trigger on a certain roll (not just 6s), its bad that most of the weapons that get it have rending 4+, feels like it should the other way around, as most of wounding rolls will have that improved ap making me wonder why they didn't just make some of those weapons ap2 in the first. IE the plasma gun is going wound a marine on a 4+ regularly anyways while 3s and 2s are going to be feel not worth the chance of gets hot like they used to. maybe I just need to see it action first. Was kind of hoping they we going to add the flyer and dedicated transport battlefield roles. Welp I'm going back to finish my Thunder warrior Homebrew for HH 1st ed so can get started on 2nd ed and maybe finish that by 3rd ed.
its a cool idea to have demons become weaker over time but having them be their strongest at the times before they get a chance to engage kinda just negates that first strength stat
One thing to add to the Strenght/Toughness chart its always on a 4+ if its equal if its toughness greater by 1 its a 5+ to roll and then you have its greater by 2 or 3 then its at a 6+ if its toughness exceed by 4 points the strenght its impossible to wound
I'm surprised by his characterization of the lore, given that he says he has read so many of the novels. The line between protagonists and antagonists is more nuanced than 40k maybe, but imo that makes it all the more dark, because it shows how even the "protagonists" in the story are indoctrinated by the imperial truth like religious zealots, willing to commit genocide if ordered and believing or at least hoping the end justifies the means. The "good" characters are basically just "good" by comparison to the "bad guys" because they aren't quite so blindly zenophobic to insist that all, even sentient, alien races arbitrarily deserve extermination, and because they have the basest level of humanity to wonder to themselves if spreading war and bloodshed across the entire galaxy, destroying and repressing existing cultures and civilizations and butchering millions of people is morally justifiable or because they consider allowing certain artists or documenters to actually tell some degree of truth rather than 100% propoganda. Even those characters that recognized that the utopia of a unified humanity and an end to the crusade was a fantasy continued to kill for the ideals that they knew were empty. The so-called "good" primarchs were "uncomfortable" with the emperor's use of the world eaters as a blunt tool of mass murder, but only when the emperor started to think he might lose control of them did he begin considering changing their course, not because they are evil killers, but because he was worried they had become an unreliable tool. There's themes from all sorts of dark parts of human history, colonialism, the crusades, the rise of facism/communism/authoritarianism spread throughout. The horus heresy is dark because it explores how you don't need raging mindless orks, hell-spawned demons, or hungering swarms of insectoid aliens that devour all life to be the evil in a setting. It shows that humanity, with its ambition, pride, jealousy and zealotry has plenty of evil in it already. This is also why it works so well for a more mature audience and why I'm so excited to see this game grow in popularity. I'm excited for narratives on the table to be more gritty real, which I think is what the horus heresy brings to the table with its lore.
@Cole Conner not sure thats a fair characterization given its so close to the pop perspective of all past humans all being dumber than the ones of current year, thinking the world was flat, and persisting on beer when none of that was true. its also strange you limit yourself to the west when warhammer was so strongly influenced by the bronze age middle east @WardeN what precisely should he get over? @Skylifer1000 pots and kettles
I like this return to the old way. I started with ED 3. I started to loose interest around ED 7.I read around 20 H,H. books. Haven`t played 40K for about 7yrs. I still have 5 armies. I think I might pick up these rules. Thanks Ash
My biggest question about the rules is whether disembarking from a transport counts as movement? If so, you can't disembark from deep striking or outflanking vehicles the way the rules are written.
Here's an interesting thought: Ostensibly, the units use the same stats as 40k. I wonder how a Heresy army would fair against a 40k army (either Chaos or SM at least).
Imho the current approach of printing as much as possible on the datasheets (weapon stats and special rules) is preferable, as it significantly limits going back and forth when looking stuff up... For this, keeping universal special rules BUT printing them on the Datasheets (as well as weapon stats) might have been preferable.
Thanks for the in-depth rules review. This has greatly helped me. I love Horus heresy setting, but I’ll be sticking to black library stories or playing kill team. These rules are not for me or other newer players.
At first glance these rules seem WAY better than 'current' 40k. I'm torn. I don't have much interest in the Heresy era when compared to the 40k stuff, but this 100% seems like a better game.
Previous installment took what was good at 7th, scrubbed nonsense like invisibility and formations and wrapped it together. From my perspective superior to 8th and later editions. After few initial games basically whole local club agreed it's actual improvement.
My gaming group play a slightly changed (community balanced) version of 4th edition. We sort of got in to HH but it was so choppy in 1st Ed we just went back to old faithful. 2nd Ed HH looks to be our new game. Let’s hope it remains close to balanced as it develops.
@Ash, you commented that the new wound chat was difficult to determine when a weapon cannot hurt a target, not sure if you figured this out later but a weapon has a chance to wound anything equal to or less than strength +3 vs toughness. So a strength 5 weapon and wound anything toughness 8 or less, but could not would anything toughness 9 or 10.
Alpha Legion; Fellow Warriors of The Emperor's Children, White Scars, Thousand Sons and the Salamanders, but only Sworn Brothers of Imperial Army? Oddly interesting.
28:30 the rules for roll to wound look like pre-AoS rules. With a bit of the execption (at least in comparions to fantasy) where a Strength X cannot hurt Toughness X+4.
Sorry Ash, I have to say this is the one review you've done I can't like - you called the Primarch of the Salamanders Ferrus Mannus! As an avowed Son of Vulkan I cannot let that slight go! Kidding of course, Great as always :)
Ready for Battle -Prime Abbadon Black - Basecoat Armour Corvus Black - Basecoat seals and undersuit Death Korps Drab -Basecoat weapons Iron Warriors - Basecoat Leather Dryad Bark - Basecoat skulls and eagles Runelord Brass - Basecoat eyes and lenses Mephiston Red - Wash weapons, seals and recesses Nuln Oil Gloss - Wash eagles and skulls Agrax Earthshade Gloss - Base with Stirland Battlemire -Paint base rims Abbadon Black Parade Ready -Highlight Eyes and lenses Wild Rider Red and Fire Dragon Bright - Highlight seals and undersuit Ork Flesh - Edge weapons with Runefang Steel. - Edge skulls and eagles Canoptek Alloy - Edge Armour with Warpfiend Grey - Drybrush base Golgfag Brown - Apply Decals using Ardcoat - Apply Weathering Powders on lower legs and base. -Seal with Purity Seal
You didn’t cover the main thing I was interested in hearing about. How does los work? If it’s like 3rd/4th then I’m very interested. If it’s like 5th-8th I’m a lot less interested. Does anyone know if it’s area terrain or true los?
~9:00 - has the fluff around the Emperor changed? Last I heard it wasn’t evolution that ‘picked the Emperor to be the pinnacle of humanity’, it was still the case that circa 8,000BCE every shaman on Earth committed ritual suicide at the same time and their souls merged together to create the Emperor.
You deffo don't need to use that chart for rolling to wound, if you followed the diagonals you'd see there are clear trends. Equal = 4+, Better by 1 = 3+, Better by 2+ = 2+, Worse by 1 = 5+, Worse by 2-3 = 6+, Worse by 4+ = Can't Wound.
These rules feel like catching up with an old friend that has done well for themselves since you last spoke. I do not hate the 9th Ed 40k rules but this feels like "proper" Warhammer.
Or what 8/9th Ed should have been …
what are the main differences between 9th ed 40k and 2nd ed Horus Heresy ? I've never really played the old editions
@@Afflictamine the biggest difference is rules bloat. each codex is chock full of stratagems and unit rules that make it difficult to remember what your enemy does. its more complex, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, but many prefer the more simple approach of new hh
@@switterbeet40K so is it more complex or more simple compared to regular wh40k?
@@Afflictamine It front loads information, but all armies use the same keywords and special rules so once you grasp it, you have a better understanding of what both you and your opponent can do without needing to own their codex as well as yours to confidently know how to plan and play a turn. I'd say its learning curve is steeper at first so seems more complex at the start but is ultimately more clear and easy to play over time (also doesnt require you to own a million different supplements, updates, articles and campaign books to know what exactly your army can do)
You had me at "based on older versions of 40k" and "Andy Hoare".
right?
TAKE ME HOME
@@Alex-dr1ez WARHAMMER ROADS,
TO THE LAND WHERE I CALL HOME,
BRIGHT RED CARPETS,
AND BLUE JUMPERS,
TAKE ME HOME WARHAMMER ROOOOOAAAADS!
Hey Ash, thanks for the review - the maths for the strength vs toughness to wound chart is that you can wound up to the STR of the attacker +3 - if you go past that, you can't - basically you the score required is:
- 2+ if S>T by 2 or more
- 3+ if S>T by 1
- 4+ if S=T
- 5+ if S
I love how many "Sworn Brothers" armies Salamanders have. Makes me happy that everyone likes them ☺️
The wound chart is back to what it was all the way back to 1st ed. you cannot wound something more than 3 toughness over your strength. so S1 cannot wound over T4, 2 = 5, 3 =6 and so on. and if its 2T lower than your S, then its wounds on 2s, 1 less is 3s. much easier to get to wounds on 2s than 8th and 9th.
This is the first time I’ve seen someone nearly giddy about warhammer rules in a long time and that makes me genuinely happy
As someone who is completely burnt out on current 40k, I was desperately hoping this was going to be a return to older editions. I was scared they were going to 'update' Horus Heresy to the new design philosophy.
The fact that not only did they keep the rules 'authentic', but they also improved upon them in many ways, makes me so unbelievably happy.
Now I just have to start practicing my "I never wanted this..." delivery for every time I start rolling up a shooting phase.
I got back into 40k after a 20 year hiatus after 2nd edition. So many of these rules ignite so much nostalgia, and I have to say that I actually love the reaction system.
The rules seem crunchy, as 40k ought to be. But it does mean long games. hehe
@@kaibe5241 I feel exactly the same, 8th and 9th just don't do it for me. I never managed to get into them since coming back to 40k
Thank you very much for presenting an honest walk through of how the game works. I appreciate you not filling the video with cringe antics like so many other RUclipsrs. Sometimes I can barely watch warhammer videos, but I loved this one.
Thank you!
Maybe the problem is warhammer.
it's about 80% 3rd edition rules, which is imho the best rule set for 40k they did. I see the worm GW, but I also see the hook. :-)
Agreed. I liked 2nd, and it was great for smaller games, but 3rd (and it's slightly more refined brother in 4th) were and are my jam.
I'm hoping they do the same with The Old World and use mostly 6th ed rules.
The game is aimed at veterans, which I'm happy about. GW finally looking after us old boys. But it will be interesting to see if the current HH community switches to this ruleset or keeps playing the forgeworld black book rules. I'm just happy that it's going plastic.
@@blastvader I only play 6th ed Fantasy. By are the best and most balanced system.
@@jonesdan85 I'm the same. 6th also had a huge amount of additional content and ways to play (Skirmish, Warbands etc).
Though I do like 5th for a bit of HeroHammer.
@@jonesdan85 and therefore, not requiring a second mortgage!
90s to 00s? That's my time!
As a Son of Vulkan, I got bent when he said Ferris Manus as our primarch like no big deal😂
Whoops hahahah
So glad it’s still based on the older rule set. Not sure about the reaction stuff but will reserve judgment till I’ve played a few games.
I mean worst case scenario people just don’t use them
Fluff wise, it's worth noting that the pre-heresy imperium still regularly wipes out entire species/planets/civilizations, turns people into servitors, is wildly xenophobic, and conscripts people on a massive scale. It's still a very grimdark setting even before Horus did his thing.
the 40k ideas of "scientific stagnation/degradation" and "religious zealotery" are so off putting to modern mindset that most warhammer fans are willing to forgive any Emperor´s sins ("a necessary evil") and hypocrisies ("a well meant lie") as long as they dont how to face the anti enlightenment implications of 40k. That scientific zenith of Dark Age of Technology didnt saved humanity from horrors of the Age of Strife and wont turn the tides of 40k (unless GW decids to AoSing 40k). And that warhammer is a gothic setting defined by stark moral contrastof of its characters (factions), how they had choose their moral positions, how they fight for it and how those positions cost them dearly on battlefield.
BigE lied to his sons and that lie doomed humanity. It is a tragedy in a clasical traditions but which dennies catharsis to modern audience that would satisfy their modern sentiment of ethics and art because in grimm darkness of 40k there is only war and the laughter of thirsting gods. And nothing is more foreing to modern man than gods and war... So all they can have is having a fun with an over the top setting
I hope so, but the way the background is described in the video sounds terrible.
Ok and
Oh yeah the imperium was fascist long before HH lol it was at no point utopian, not sure where that point came from.
Because, generally, they're more permissive with technology, beliefs, autonomy, and quality of life, so long as you aren't an alien, probably?
One of your best review videos ever. Thank you for comprehensive content on the Heresy.
I’m really hoping the fact you have this stuff up today means pre orders soon. On payday would be great 😅
Assuming the embargoes lift a week before pre-orders, that could put pre-orders at next saturday, which is exciting
@@braedzero8127 Preorder tomorrow would be awesome! I think we are all excited to start playing HH 2.0.
@@motorbikekultofspeed1094 will most likely be next Saturday
It’s not on the preorder slate for 5/28. So may be the first week of June? 5/28 is the chaos knight Abom/codex/datacards, new kill team exp and the hab terrain
@@KnighthawkStudios GMG reviews usually come a week before preorder, and lo and behold - preorders are this week :)
As someone who only plays 3rd ed 40K and 6th ed WFB, I love the look of this so much.
You Sir, know what is good in life. Carry on.
Agreed! Jimmy’s doing it right. 👍
When I started playing Warhammer 40k it was 2nd edition. I loved the lore, the painting and making miniatures, and really loved playing the game. Played from 1995-99. Now just getting back into the hobby. I am getting the box set for sure and have some Mk3 and mk4 boxes of Marines as well. I am doing it because I want to paint minis again and love the lore... so I am one of the people that will absolutely love the first 140 pages of the book. :)
Great overview Ash. The rules genuinely look good, apart from the to-wound chart, as that could create a lot of 'feels bad' moments. With that being said, I genuinely wish that Alan Bligh was still around to see how much love there still is for the game that he spear-headed into production. RIP Alan
You can tell it's an Andy Hoare helmed title, the box comes with reference sheets, good stuff. Also nice to see dreads can't be melee loaded and then get immobilized mid field.
And red whippy sticks!
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames worst part of the box lol
This fixes almost everything I disliked about 30k. Excessive overwatch that means rolling tons of dice every charge for little effect: gone. Removing the closest model for casualties and artificer shenanigans: gone. Cumbersome psychic phase that grinds the game to a halt: gone. Confusing movement rules that make it hard to remember how far vehicles can move and still fire their weapons: gone. Awesome awesome awesome. Super stoked about this.
Thanks for this review!
These HH new rules seem very good to me with the come-back of all the old mechanics that I love and interesting new rules like the reactions. I don't play anymore to 40k because of the current system (too simple for the core mechanics, and unnecessarily complex, and non realistic/logical in codex mechanics, specially in stratagems) but I'd love to play 40k with these rules (more complex and complete in core mechanics, but shared by every one and quite logical).
Having only played 8th and 9th 40k, I'm loving the rules for this. My box is on it's way, can't wait!
Hi Ash, If the toughness is 4 more than your STR then you cant wound. That is the increment you were looking for in the to Wound Chart.
Also great run down of the rules.
I hope they release a smaller book like the old 7th Ed rule book these big hard back books are nice but when you just wanna check a rule it’s cumbersome
To wound table: notice the diagonals: The main diagonal is 4+, then you have an 5+ and two 6+ lines going right. You have a 3+ going left, and everything left of the 3+ line is 2+
Listening to you talk about the rules, it would be quite cool if you maybe did a video once comparing the main rules systems of the most popular wargames and what you like and dislike about them.
I mean mainly things like Turn based systems vs Alternative Activations vs 'Interleaved' turns (Eg MESBG), and things like that.
Would be interesting given you play so many games! ty
They most likely can't since if they're getting this stuff early they're probably under NDA. And GW's NDA agreement is so draconian mild criticism can be perceived as breaking it.
@@Rsma77 I didn't mean criticising GW or another game, I just meant in general.
For example I love Alternating Activation, but it's very difficult to get right, and actually is not very 'simulationist' for big battles as it encourages attacks on units that havn't activated yet.
Just would be interesting that's all.
I’ve got no restrictions comparing this game to anything else on the market or criticizing anything I don’t particularly like about it.
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames Yes - just want to say again i wasn't asking for more critical rules reviews!
Just thought it would be cool to hear your thoughts on alternative activations v turns systems, what rules you particularly liked, good magic systems etc
Best Ash
Too many old memories of arguments (friendly or not) of vehicile armor facing, and what is or isn't under a template have all come flooding back.
Its awesome seeing the Corvus power armour back in action
I think one of those things I prefer with 40/30k is the style of all those codexes and rulebooks from GW.
They are so well done, compelling, beautifully illustrated (V3 40k was a masterpiece festival in this domain).
I love all the descriptions, the artworks, and all the narrated parts in the form of quotes or little bits of documents and recordings (this aspect is fading away unfortunately in favor of a "in present" linear classic narration which is a diminishment imo).
Very detailed review as always, love your page turn book reviews they are the best
Thank you!
Oh man, it's going to be trippy going back to to-hit and to-wound charts. And initiatives!
I still have three sealed Betrayal at Calth sets; was going to make a large Word Bearer force but then Forgeworld stopped selling the legion conversion kits.
Stand by for new upgrade kits!
17:41 for the rules for those monsters that want to skip Ash's lovely preamble.
This ruleset is what I wish current 40k is, just with 9ths Force Orgs. I can go without Strats and command points as well, but I know some people like them.
Looking forward to all the HH content to come! Be picking up a box set for myself and doing Iron Warriors vs Imp Fists.
Ash, are you going to do a Siege of Terra themed Blood Angels?
31:30 would have mentioned Initiative order, that's a huge change from current 40k.
Yep!
So like 3rd where you strike in Initiative order regardless of whether you charge etc.
"I can go without Strats and command points as well" Me too, a 100% a thing I'd love to just leave out.
@@SwedishWookie glad I'm not the only one, m8.
@@blastvader slight nitpick - defenders in cover struck first, then it was pure initiative order in 3rd.
The Imperium is still a bit too genocidal to be full Star Trek
But it’s a whooooole lot closer than ten thousand years later. :)
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames not close enough to comprere, but I get your point
Oh man I love Ash's conjecture about the plastic Leviathan. Very well spotted!
I'm sure it's been mentioned in another comment, but the math on the Strength vs Toughness chart is if Toughness is 4 or more higher than strength, you can't wound. That is the math part you were looking for briefly.
You had me at 90s 40k
First things first.
So happy that you got this stuff early, really believe that you make the best content and reviews.
Have you seen the Legion rules? I'm really interested if I can play Space Wolves out of the box with the new box...worried about those goofy Grey Slayers
Legion rules will most likely release as a seperate book
On the to wound chart you can wound anything that is 3 higher toughness than your strenght. You can't wound anything that is 4 higher toughness than your strength.
To Wound is additive in heresy. That means however much your strength is higher over the opponent's toughness that's how much you improve or worsen the 4+ to wound when you're equal to a minimum of 2+, and a maximum where you can't wound at all. Instead once you reach 6+, you get 1 rank of toughness you can wound on a 6 before you can't wound at all.
I'd like to see a short series of escalation-style armies, with the same core. Say, 1000, 2000 & 3000pts. It would be a good showcase of cool stuff, but also clarify how Reactions play out at the different scales.
OMG I love the page design. LIke the old Imperial Armour, and much nicer than the current 40k books.
i don't really understand the comparison of the Tclosest model getting wounded' to 'the controlling player picks a model that gets wounded'. Before, with the closest model you had to position the artificer armour guy out front to tank all the small arms fire, but he had to tank the hard hitting weapons as well. Now it's even easier to have the artificer armour tank all small arms fire.... he just needs to be in line of site and you just pick him.... I find that a detriment. If he doesn't get wounded, you can even pick another to take the lasannon. Feels actually even gamier....
Yeh. I hated it when they first introduced the "pull from the front" rule. But I quickly changed my tune when I realised the tactical and strategic implication the rule brought with it. It was a small change, that brought in so much depth.
Agreed there - while I don't mind this change (it reminds me of 5th edition) it does mean that you can't use clever positioning to snipe out characters or slip past their artificer guy or kill a special weapon ASAP.
It's an interesting change, but not for the reason he thinks it's interesting.
Yeah, I'm kinda bummed to see it go, but it does fall under the "Cut down some time" umbrella
He actually missed it in the video but any model with the character sub type can stop or start allocation anytime you'd like even if they've been wounded. That's unit champs and independent characters. It's even gamier than 9th ed 40k for wound allocation.
@@jacksonstanford7369 at least snipers always choose allocation now so they're much more useful.
This sounds like my teens & twenties are about to be relived! 40k toys go to ebay forthwith!
Great review - I am SUPER excited for this!! :)
Wow, I must have been out of the loop for a long time...the rules all seem so familiar with what I thought the standard rules were. It sounds like the newer editions really majorly changed the core rules. If I get back into playing TT again I may have to go for 30k since the new 40k edition rules referenced as comparison sound terrible.
Yeah, they significantly rewrote the rules in 8th edition, enough so that the previous Codices were completely unusable. (I've played off and on since 6th myself.)
The two legions that "disappeared", they know what they did... and so does Malcador.
So Daemons are an entire army dedicated to Alpha Strike? That sounds like a good idea. :p
I really want to buy that starter set, but I don't want to get into another game. Really interested in the Horus Heresy...
Really good overview on the rulebook, thanks Ash.
Older design philosophy. Yes I'm in!
Horus Heresy is the Historical wargame from gw.
i know it sounds like a monkeys paw wish really hope 40k becomes more like this. it looks like a lot of fun
Hmmm this seems interesting. Haven't been playing since the 3rd edition, but this somehow got my attention.
16:45 the rules start for people that don't want to learn background and a blurb description of the factions
I won't pretend to be well read with the 40k and 30k. But the one thing that gets me is 40k Magnus and why he doesn't have a want to wipe out the black legion Surely he knows that Horus had a hand in the burning of Prospero.
He wasn't the executioner but he had a hand making sure Russ did what he did best.
This breakdown was fantastic man! Thank you!
Ah yes, Ferrus Manus, the well known primarch of the Salamanders 😂
Iconic really
I like that Initiative has more purpose by adding it to running rule, and that running is more of tactical move than a gamble with little payoff, but it seems like a huge jump as a M6 + I4 would equal a run of 10", makes me wonder what will affect this otherwise bikers and jumppack units will have less reason to be taken for their speed boost. Maybe terrain rules will balance it out IE bikers and jumppack units aren't slowed as much, while infantry don't add their Initiative when through cover or something.
Mixed feelings on walkers losing AV values, as this puts them on a move level battlefield with infantry and monsters, but makes them fighting other vehicles seem weird. Surprised they weren't given a degrading stat line. Personally I would have like to have seem monstrous creatures gain AV values with some sub rules of some sort.
The rending rule sounds good and bad, it's good that it can trigger on a certain roll (not just 6s), its bad that most of the weapons that get it have rending 4+, feels like it should the other way around, as most of wounding rolls will have that improved ap making me wonder why they didn't just make some of those weapons ap2 in the first. IE the plasma gun is going wound a marine on a 4+ regularly anyways while 3s and 2s are going to be feel not worth the chance of gets hot like they used to.
maybe I just need to see it action first.
Was kind of hoping they we going to add the flyer and dedicated transport battlefield roles.
Welp I'm going back to finish my Thunder warrior Homebrew for HH 1st ed so can get started on 2nd ed and maybe finish that by 3rd ed.
Thanks i've been waiting for this. Now I can decide if I want to get into Horus heresy.
Neat, Reactions stuff reminds me of Gates of Antares
Painting up my Iron Warriors while watching this. Going to the Let's play next
its a cool idea to have demons become weaker over time but having them be their strongest at the times before they get a chance to engage kinda just negates that first strength stat
You could use the threat of max strength daemons to force your opponent to deploy in a way which benefits you or baits out their tough units.
Daemons in HH 1st edition had a similar rule and had special deployment rules to start them much closer to the opponent, so I wouldn’t worry too much.
One thing to add to the Strenght/Toughness chart its always on a 4+ if its equal if its toughness greater by 1 its a 5+ to roll and then you have its greater by 2 or 3 then its at a 6+ if its toughness exceed by 4 points the strenght its impossible to wound
Love this videos! Im so hyped for this new editon HH. I Think it is going to one of GW biggest and best games ever…
I'm surprised by his characterization of the lore, given that he says he has read so many of the novels. The line between protagonists and antagonists is more nuanced than 40k maybe, but imo that makes it all the more dark, because it shows how even the "protagonists" in the story are indoctrinated by the imperial truth like religious zealots, willing to commit genocide if ordered and believing or at least hoping the end justifies the means. The "good" characters are basically just "good" by comparison to the "bad guys" because they aren't quite so blindly zenophobic to insist that all, even sentient, alien races arbitrarily deserve extermination, and because they have the basest level of humanity to wonder to themselves if spreading war and bloodshed across the entire galaxy, destroying and repressing existing cultures and civilizations and butchering millions of people is morally justifiable or because they consider allowing certain artists or documenters to actually tell some degree of truth rather than 100% propoganda. Even those characters that recognized that the utopia of a unified humanity and an end to the crusade was a fantasy continued to kill for the ideals that they knew were empty. The so-called "good" primarchs were "uncomfortable" with the emperor's use of the world eaters as a blunt tool of mass murder, but only when the emperor started to think he might lose control of them did he begin considering changing their course, not because they are evil killers, but because he was worried they had become an unreliable tool. There's themes from all sorts of dark parts of human history, colonialism, the crusades, the rise of facism/communism/authoritarianism spread throughout. The horus heresy is dark because it explores how you don't need raging mindless orks, hell-spawned demons, or hungering swarms of insectoid aliens that devour all life to be the evil in a setting. It shows that humanity, with its ambition, pride, jealousy and zealotry has plenty of evil in it already. This is also why it works so well for a more mature audience and why I'm so excited to see this game grow in popularity. I'm excited for narratives on the table to be more gritty real, which I think is what the horus heresy brings to the table with its lore.
All of this!
Dude, it's just a game. Get over it. Horus Heresy frogs are the worst.
@@WardenOfTerra get over what, being interested in something? 😆
@@WardenOfTerra People who cannot let others have fun with what they love are a tad worse.
@Cole Conner not sure thats a fair characterization given its so close to the pop perspective of all past humans all being dumber than the ones of current year, thinking the world was flat, and persisting on beer when none of that was true. its also strange you limit yourself to the west when warhammer was so strongly influenced by the bronze age middle east
@WardeN what precisely should he get over?
@Skylifer1000 pots and kettles
I feel my youth returning!!!
Heresy hype!!!! And your RG looked amazing!
I would definitely want to get my hands on the core rules book. Looks very nice. It's probably $50 to $75 US.
I like this return to the old way. I started with ED 3. I started to loose interest around ED 7.I read around 20 H,H. books. Haven`t played 40K for about 7yrs. I still have 5 armies. I think I might pick up these rules. Thanks Ash
universal special rules are a much better idea than the current system
Got nobody to play this with but I want it.
I’ve got the same problem, but thinking I’ll get it anyway… it’s just packed full of goodness.
Ace intro thanks!
My biggest question about the rules is whether disembarking from a transport counts as movement? If so, you can't disembark from deep striking or outflanking vehicles the way the rules are written.
Here's an interesting thought:
Ostensibly, the units use the same stats as 40k. I wonder how a Heresy army would fair against a 40k army (either Chaos or SM at least).
Placed a pre-order/register of interest based on your review ...
Imho the current approach of printing as much as possible on the datasheets (weapon stats and special rules) is preferable, as it significantly limits going back and forth when looking stuff up...
For this, keeping universal special rules BUT printing them on the Datasheets (as well as weapon stats) might have been preferable.
I've so missed AV tables...
Thanks for the in-depth rules review. This has greatly helped me. I love Horus heresy setting, but I’ll be sticking to black library stories or playing kill team. These rules are not for me or other newer players.
At first glance these rules seem WAY better than 'current' 40k. I'm torn. I don't have much interest in the Heresy era when compared to the 40k stuff, but this 100% seems like a better game.
Previous installment took what was good at 7th, scrubbed nonsense like invisibility and formations and wrapped it together.
From my perspective superior to 8th and later editions.
After few initial games basically whole local club agreed it's actual improvement.
My gaming group play a slightly changed (community balanced) version of 4th edition.
We sort of got in to HH but it was so choppy in 1st Ed we just went back to old faithful.
2nd Ed HH looks to be our new game. Let’s hope it remains close to balanced as it develops.
100% one of the ones thinking "I wish this video had time stamps".
@Ash, you commented that the new wound chat was difficult to determine when a weapon cannot hurt a target, not sure if you figured this out later but a weapon has a chance to wound anything equal to or less than strength +3 vs toughness. So a strength 5 weapon and wound anything toughness 8 or less, but could not would anything toughness 9 or 10.
Great Intro on the Horus Heresy.
It's such a compelling Story. Such universal themes about fatherhood and life etc.
Carl Jung and JOrdan Peterson would love to read these stories.
Great overview
3 soft cover books in a nice card sleeve, please
Alpha Legion; Fellow Warriors of The Emperor's Children, White Scars, Thousand Sons and the Salamanders, but only Sworn Brothers of Imperial Army? Oddly interesting.
28:30 the rules for roll to wound look like pre-AoS rules. With a bit of the execption (at least in comparions to fantasy) where a Strength X cannot hurt Toughness X+4.
That was the case in Fantasy before 8th.
It was also the case in 40K before 6th or 7th I want to say.
I am interested for sure. The beakies are a big nostalgia hit. But there are so many games, they all take time to paint,...
Sorry Ash, I have to say this is the one review you've done I can't like - you called the Primarch of the Salamanders Ferrus Mannus! As an avowed Son of Vulkan I cannot let that slight go!
Kidding of course, Great as always :)
I beefed that one lol
Do you have a painting guide for your Raven guard you did for Warhammer world 30k event?
Ready for Battle
-Prime Abbadon Black
- Basecoat Armour Corvus Black
- Basecoat seals and undersuit Death Korps Drab
-Basecoat weapons Iron Warriors
- Basecoat Leather Dryad Bark
- Basecoat skulls and eagles Runelord Brass
- Basecoat eyes and lenses Mephiston Red
- Wash weapons, seals and recesses Nuln Oil Gloss
- Wash eagles and skulls Agrax Earthshade Gloss
- Base with Stirland Battlemire
-Paint base rims Abbadon Black
Parade Ready
-Highlight Eyes and lenses Wild Rider Red and Fire Dragon Bright
- Highlight seals and undersuit Ork Flesh
- Edge weapons with Runefang Steel.
- Edge skulls and eagles Canoptek Alloy
- Edge Armour with Warpfiend Grey
- Drybrush base Golgfag Brown
- Apply Decals using Ardcoat
- Apply Weathering Powders on lower legs and base.
-Seal with Purity Seal
@@GuerrillaMiniatureGames much love :)
I have not forgotten about templates
This is cool, Not a super 40k fan but 30k seems pretty awesome.
I really wish the rules where available individually. I would have ordered it already for the HH army I have.
I’m sure lots of copies will end up on trading sites and eBay from all the folks splitting up boxes
I think this is the edition ive been waiting for
You didn’t cover the main thing I was interested in hearing about. How does los work? If it’s like 3rd/4th then I’m very interested. If it’s like 5th-8th I’m a lot less interested. Does anyone know if it’s area terrain or true los?
~9:00 - has the fluff around the Emperor changed? Last I heard it wasn’t evolution that ‘picked the Emperor to be the pinnacle of humanity’, it was still the case that circa 8,000BCE every shaman on Earth committed ritual suicide at the same time and their souls merged together to create the Emperor.
The wound chart looks like you can wound up to S+3, so not too difficult to remember.
this sounds great! might get me back in too 40k once more =D
Amazing. More Heresy content soon?
You know it!
Gonna have to find a way to bring the Night Lords/Salamanders up or you down here to TX then!
You deffo don't need to use that chart for rolling to wound, if you followed the diagonals you'd see there are clear trends.
Equal = 4+, Better by 1 = 3+, Better by 2+ = 2+, Worse by 1 = 5+, Worse by 2-3 = 6+, Worse by 4+ = Can't Wound.