How Swan Neck Wings Work
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- In this weeks Le Mans themed episode, we look at how swan neck wings work. Swan neck wing mounts move the mount off the suction surface of the wing, where the flow is more likely to separate, reducing disturbance to the underside. This can help promote flow attachment on the wing, and allow you to drive it harder.
For a great article on this from Mulsanne's Corner: www.mulsannesco...
![Kodak Black - Sharp Vibes [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/oEV0OoLJeIs/mqdefault.jpg)
loving the nonchalant bumping into the board and dropping the cap, and just moving on like it didn't happen
Dude your vids are absolute gold. Keep it up.
You explain aerodynamics so proficiently. Now appreciate racing as a challenging and scientific. Cars are so radically changing to almost fighter jets but on the ground
Another reason swan-necked mounts exist (especially in F1): taking advantage of the allowable flexion of the carbon fiber structure to flaten the wing out on the straights.
Otherwise, nice vid.
Thanks for the insight!
Very good explanation, you are a very good teacher, I'm doing my final work for Graduation about tractor trailer and your videos are being a crucial part of my understanding of the air effects on automobiles, I miss the classical music at the end of the more recent videos!
Just skip to 6:10. Kyle succinctly answers what the rest of the video managed to nearly confuse with tangents.
Kyle, there clearly is no question about your understanding of fluid dynamics. However, you could greatly increase the effectiveness of your discussions with one simple change to your approach and delivery of ideas:
it is much more helpful to give a simplified assessment/summary at the outset of discussion, which then gets explained or "unpacked" for the rest of the video. Allow me to visualize the 3-stage process:
1. Introduce the subject for discussion
2. Summarize the answer to said subject as succinctly as possible
3. Spend the rest of the time going into detail regarding the summary, answering any possible questions, situations, etc.
This will leave people feeling better informed concerning your information, as well as giving them a better chance of understanding. I've noticed most of your videos do the opposite:
1. Introduce subject
2. Spend a vast amount of video time detailing reasons and situations in a tangential fashion
3. summarize the answer to the subject
As you can see, switching the order of 2 and 3 creates discussional confusion. It is a style of delivery often used by experts who understand the nuances of what their discussing; however, those of us listening do not understand as well, if at all! Therefore, changing the order of discussion points 2 and 3 as recommended better your chances of effectively communicating your ideas with your listening audience.
Horror Readings by G.M. Danielson
there's a simple way to summarise that (based on professional presentation techniques):
1. say what you're going to say
2. say it
3. say what you just said
+william balbys I can't seem to reply directly to your comment, but yes, due to the direction of the total force on the wing (lift+drag) it makes more structural sense to have the mount behind the wing. However, this is often not practical to mount to the chassis when designers want to place the wing very far rearward, hence why they are in front.
william balbys I believe active suspension was banned in lmp
I know it is in f1
Not sure about gt though
I was watching recent video of AJ Hartmans mustang aero, and saw they had a swan neck wing. I knew you did a video on it a few years ago so I came back to ask this exact question. I'm glad someone else beat me to it by a few years.
I’m loving the nuanced detailed explanation you put in your videos!
Amazingly informative. And your bearing is impeccable.
This channel is awesome man. Love it.
whats your take on mounting the wing by the end plates? its my understanding that big end plate increase the wings effectiveness, so why not make big end plates that double as mounts, that way you don't have anything spoiling the air flow on either side of the wing, and nothing getting in the way in front...
Like an f1 rear wing.
Phil Marshall no they are not? there is nothing in the middle of the wing. They are mounted on the sides
Phil Marshall I know what you mean but I'm pretty sure that part is for activating/deactivating the DRS. Maybe it also helps with support, but the endplates are definetly the main supports.
Phil Marshall No problem mate. F1 cars change a lot and get confusing sometimes lol. There have been center mounted rear wings in the past but that was a pretty long time ago. I actually prefer the look of center mounted wings too.
+Phil Marshall They used to be mounted that way, but now the center support is the main way they are attached
Thank you.
Would it be useful to have the supports behind the wing? It may create the problem of flutter effect on the wing, given the rearward support position, but the wing posts themselves wouldn't affect the flow over and under the wing any longer.
My thoughts exactly
so what happens to flow separation from giant wing endplates during yaw? Isn't the relatively small flow separation from supports outshadowed by the endplates. Or, if one argues the endplates actually help counteract the yaw issue, wouldn't underwing supports do the same? (like strakes on a diffuser)
More and more race cars are using this wing.
The 2 fastest production car based car racing (DTM and Super GT) have all their cars use this wing.
Also if you allow for a bit off flex at the right spot in the nek you could manage de angle of the wing at high speeds a bit.
ikkuhkanstikkuh ahhhhh you’re a genius
good explanation
The swan necks are in front of the wing itself, creating an air turbulence in front of the wing, what is the effect of that air turbulence? which it has being created on top and bottom of the wing. tnx Ed
Does the top surface of the wing not produce as much of an effect as the lower surface? Is that why your reference frame here is only from the bottom-view?
oooooooh makes sense now
imagine how efficient the Koenigsegg One:1 wing is
Thanks, always considered swan necks a bit gimmicky, not any longer. :)
Was it not Koenigsegg that pioneered the swan neck?
Or maybe around a very similar time at least… 🤔
Great video
Do the wings in f1 also have that problem, bc they're on the sides?
you can see this in practice on all types of fluid dynamic mechanisms. basically, if you need to put some protuberance somewhere, choose a spot that doesn't jack up the lifting surface. so you get oil coolers, spare fuel tanks, bombs, etc. hanging off the bottoms of WWII fighter wings, and the like. a casual study of aerodynamics should prepare your intuitions for this, even if you're not fully aware of the why.
Michael min:
Love that comment: "a casual study of aerodynamics should prepare your intuitions for this, even if you're not fully aware of the why."
are there any good papers/journals on this
+KYLE.DRIVES can you explain why some old rally cars don't allow air to pass under the rear wing
A strong crosswind might have a bigger effect than yaw angle.
I’d say they’re more for attention seeking though.
What is the best type of wing for hatchbacks specifically an STI?
Can the swan neck mount come up from the trailing edge of the wing, or will that cause worste problems than either of the other mounting types?
Why couldn't the wing mounts pivet during a curve, as in turn as you turn. Does this technology exist?
sir a small question does this will not affact the rigidity of the rear end of the car ??
any 1 in the comments plzz help me
TYVM
question... (i know this vid is year old but hopefully someone will answer)
so not so long ago in f1 we had the red bull front wing flex scandal and we have seen 'moustaches' in the front grills of a lot of supercars, mainly ferrari's which flex at higher speeds to increase front down force... now the moustaches are in the lower grills not touching the road like f1 wings would at high flex...(ironically what gave red bull away as it was scraping the track at high speed corners).
so my question is, if you're rear wing is mounted and supported solely by swan necks, in addition to everything you mentioned, would A; the chance of wing flex increase? and B; would there be any aero gain as a result?
obviously this relieson the wings not being supported at the ends to like f1 cars or most oem/standard road car "wings"/spoilers.
I'm currently a first year mechanical engineering student @RMIT. I was wondering are there any simply ways, without major modification, to improve the aero of a mass produced car like the VF commodore?
+paulcug Yes, put an underfloor on it. Underbody aero is a forgotten area on road cars. Crouch underneath any car before say 2005 and all you see is mechanical maelstrom and zero thoughts going into that area. With the push in the last 5 years for higher efficiency vehicles, you've seem some manufacturers start to look at the bottom of the car as an area of drag reduction as it's low-hanging fruit. And they're doing this across their vehicle lines as it's such a no-brainer. The Eco-modder communities figured this out long ago. Websearch it and you'll see numerous examples of executions backed up by MPG data. You might even find someone tinkering with the exact make and model of your daily commuter.
Look under an old vw bug.
Can someone tell me the title of the outro music? Thanks
Kyle is keeping flow attachment mean the same as keeping laminar flow?
What about wings that are mounted really low? Like on the bumper.
Like on drag cars right? That should be for smoother separation and downforce
At this point, wouldn't it be even more beneficial to have your endplates act as a mount? That's my plan for my 94 civic hatchback since I want to keep my spoon style spoiler and wouldn't have anywhere else to mount it
do you know the answer to this, now 2 years later?
@@divoom1269 I never got around to it. Between a baby and buying a house all of my cars got sent to the back burner.
very not ideal is my new favorite phrase. previous was "this is below average" to everyday failings
Kyle. Firstly thanks for such informative clips. I have a question about wing supports and vehicle yaw. You mention how the slip angle of the rear tyres causes the wing supports to not be travelling in line with the air flow over the car. I am currently designing a rear wing for my EVo 6 time attack car. I am using end supports and was applying some of what you have said to my design philosophy. If the end plates of the wing are splayed outwards towards the front of the vehicle I appreciate that this will increase drag in a straight line. (Cd of approx 0.1 for a thin airfoil at 10 degrees AoA). However when turning the outboard wing support will be more in line with the airflow meaning the end plate will not cause turbulence over the surface of the wing adjacent to that support. The inboard support will be turned even more against the airflow however the wake of that support will not be disrupting airflow over any wing surface. The increased drag of this support mid corner will present a couple with a torque helping the car turn into the corner. Is there a reason that this approach is not used in the design of end mounted wings? What am I missing? Is it just the drag penalty people are concerned about? If drag was the issue then a twisted support could prove beneficial with the plate at the wing height splayed out but with a progressive twist down to making te support in line with the vehicle direction once there is enough distance from the wing to not affect the air flowing under the wing surface.
Raze the Roof Who says it isn't used? www.racecar-engineering.com/news/revealed-audi-porsches-le-mans-rear-wing-trick/
10 degrees is a bit extreme though, you probably aren't going to see more than 4 degrees yaw unless you're doing hilclimbs or dirt, what will happen is you will just end up stalling out your inside endplate while the outside endplate will be pulling you out of the corner, which will result in not great stability. Also it will result in your inside endplate building up a high pressure region underneath the wing, which is not good for downforce. This is why slotted endplates (on the lower side) exist, to vent this high pressure below the wing. Really, what you want is a profiled endplate, not an angled endplate.
KYLE.DRIVES Thanks for that. I arbitrarily chose 10 degrees just to show the relatively low drag penalty if it did indeed offer improved downforce with yaw. I get most of your explanation except for the bit about the outside endplate pulling the car out of the corner. I would have thought the "approaching stall" drag on the inside endplate combined with the minimum drag of the outside endplate would help to rotate the car into the corner. By profiled endplate do you mean cambered endplates similar to the LeMans endplates shown in that link?
Catherine Palumbo The force provided by lift from attached flow is usually substantially higher than the drag force from stalled flow. If your outside endplate flow is attached, and at 10 degrees normally, and the rear is at 4 degrees of yaw, it means the endplate will have an angle of 6 degrees out of the corner, the lift from this will pull the rear out of the corner. While the inside endplate will still be pulling the car in, it's definitely not going to be as effective as having 2, non stalled endplates pulling the car into the corner. And yep, that LeMans endplate would be a type of profiled endplate.
Hope that helps!
KYLE.DRIVES Sorry Kyle I should have been clearer. I don't want to set the end plates at 10 degrees. I just want to set them to the yaw angle at optimum mu. So I would splay the endplates at 4 degrees to centreline of car not 10. So in this case you would have the outside endplate not providing any drag or lateral aero force to direction of travel and the inside with a 4 degree non stalled angle of attack to the air. Would this config provide a moment (caused by inner plate drag) turning the car into the corner plus lateral force on the inner plate providing force into the direction you are turning effectively providing a vector of force to the left rear? More left than rear if Cl/Cd is greater than 1?
Raze the Roof Sorry the inside endplate would be at 8 degrees AoA being the 4 degrees of initial angle plus the yaw!
So the underside of the wing is more important than the top of the wing?
That's where most of the Down force is generated yes.
Wow, I sort of understood. I think.
Why don't the LMP1/P2 teams use the endplates as supports like f1 teams do?
+The Shad LMP1s do as well, but due to the increased span of their wings they need an additional support in the centre to keep the wing light by reducing bending moment and structural weight. I believe LMP2s are doing that more and more too now. If you have to choose a method for supporting a long wing though, it is more structurally efficient to have two centre supports than two endplate supports.
+The Shad Regulations mandate the mid-span supports. The ACO doesn't want loaded endplates as the only source of support for the wing. If a rear fender gets hit, it would immediately compromise the integrity of the wing mount and the car could be out on the spot.
+mulsannemike Pastor Maldonado spain 2015...
I thought the swan neck came out in DTM first... hmmm
I love how your channel is called Kyle DRIVES but you never show yourself driving
Am I the only one thinking the optimal solution on a racecar would obviously be a reversed swan neck?
I mean, wouldnt you want to hit the wing with virgin airflow as much as possible at any angle?? assuming that we are in fact going forward at speed when we need it to work, and that the intention is that it generates downforce when you're at critical speed, I'd say you're much better off with positioning the wing supports behind the effective surface area of the wing, with the swan neck bending towards the front of the car.
You could also mount the wing at it's complete extremities thus having one half of the "bad airflow" from the mount off the wing
now after 3 years, do you happen to know the answer?
Hi, very intresting video. I would like to ask why, if wing mounts (which are genrally not so big) cause such problems with flow separation under yaw conditions, do quite a few racing cars (including if I'm not mistaken F1s) use quite big end-plates. Would they not generate the same effect, if not possibly greater?
alek ita Endplates do in fact produce flow separation in yaw, however their benefits in controlling the wing vortex exceed this downside. Check out my video on "How do F1 rear wings work" for more! Also keep in mind that with a flat wing profile, and a slight downwash from the chassis, F1 wings aren't as close to stall at the ends. Check out my "Why are car wings twisted" video for that. You may also note that F1 cars typically run a swan neck wing mount in the centre.
ruclips.net/video/7pWuI2Fk57U/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/PmaKmz9cqRY/видео.html
KYLE.DRIVES Ok, thank you very much!
Marker cap drop 5:45 !!!
00:07 No....That is a drawing by a 7 year old school boy.....
Great videos by the way.
Not try to hate or talking shit but the drawing is not that good and i cant imagine what he is talking about either use animation or practice drawing although great video mate👍🏽
Why are you look so ill some times?
Mehlstaub...
That is a good wuestion.
The answer:
Of course you know about all the female groupies that follow/throw themselves at F1 drivers.
There are other kinds of groupies...the smart ones...who follow the smart guys behind the scenes. They keep Kyle up late at night.
What a YAW fest.
so in other words, aside the world of ultra restricted formula 1, these ugly wing mounts have exactly zero purpose?
with a smaller wing, you get less drag, so more top speed in any purpose.